Troy Stallings' Amazing Story of Redemption from a Life of Crime

Hear the amazing story of how our newest church member, Troy Stallings, went from being one of the leading gangsters in Hobbs, NM, and convicted felon, to a life of ministry.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
How are you Troy?

(00:08):
I'm doing good.
Troy Stallings.
Yes sir.
Good to have you.
New member of our church.
You've been a gift dropped into our lap.
You and I have had several conversations in just what, less than a week?
Yes.
I guess a little over a week.
You came to class.
I met you at class last Wednesday night.
It's amazing how much I've learned about you in the past week.

(00:32):
I just wanted to have you on to share your story.
We're going to have probably many conversations across this table, but I wanted to start maybe
just introducing you to the congregation, letting you tell your story and just enjoy
the amazing things God's done in your life.

(00:54):
You're from Hobbs, New Mexico?
Yes sir.
You're a hometown boy?
Yes.
Well, since I was two.
Two years old?
I was born in Phoenix, but been here since I was two, so this is all I've ever known.
You're 34 years old.
34.
You didn't grow up in the church, is that right?
That is correct.
Tell me your story about growing up and how you came to know Jesus and all that.

(01:24):
Absolutely.
I did not grow up in church at all.
I remember probably when I was in fourth grade, a good friend of mine invited me to a church.
I want to say they were talking about Daniel, if I remember right.
I was a little kid, first time ever being in church.
They might have led me to the center's prayer.

(01:45):
I don't remember, but that's the only memory of church I have as a child.
A little bit later in life, my brother's uncle took it upon himself to make sure I memorized
John 3.16.
I do remember that instance.
We sat at that table for 30, 40 minutes until I could cite it to him.

(02:11):
Other than that, those are my only experiences I had in the church or even towards God.
One of the things I've come to, it's just struck me how similar your story and my story
is because I didn't grow up in church either.
I had these episodes growing up where I was introduced to Christianity.

(02:31):
My mom would take me to VBS.
I remember feeling I needed to respond to an altar call at VBS.
Even though I didn't get saved, that's important groundwork.
The Holy Spirit's laying for something he knows he wants to do later in my life.
Absolutely.
You've got those same types of things.

(02:54):
As a kid, I was a sponge.
I was so easily influenced.
Watching TV, watching these movies about criminals and doing the things they were doing, it intrigued
me.
The music I started listening to really young just intrigued me.

(03:14):
I just soaked it up and I loved it.
I remember probably one of the biggest influences was this movie called Half Bake.
It was a stoners movie.
I remember watching it and thinking, that is the coolest thing ever.
Who was in that movie?
Dave Chappelle.
Dave Chappelle was in that movie, man.

(03:36):
Probably hilarious.
Oh, man, it was.
It was a funny movie when I was younger.
I just remember thinking, man, I want to smoke weed so bad.
These guys make it look so, so cool.
Me and a bunch of my buddies, man, that was just our goal.
We were going to smoke some weed.
How old were you?
Then I was 13.

(03:57):
I remember I finally got a hold of it.
We were just smoking it and smoking it.
Nothing happened.
I was like, man, this is nothing.
As soon as we stepped away, I was high as a kite and fell in love instantly.
By the time I was 15, I was selling weed, smoking weed every day, selling cocaine, doing

(04:20):
cocaine casually.
That's when I really started my life of crime.
I was about 15.
I started breaking into cars, started breaking into houses.
It was really just a rush.
The adrenaline rush.
The adrenaline.
Yes.

(04:40):
It was more addictive than the drugs.
Interesting.
Yeah.
I was 16, almost 17 when I first tried meth.
Of course, I was hooked instantly.
I've tried every drug there is to try.
I mean, ecstasy, shrooms, pain pills.
I wanted to try it all.

(05:01):
If I'd get a hold of it, I was going to give it a try, see what it was like.
But methamphetamines really was the drug of my choice.
Started drinking when I got a little bit older a lot.
About 19, started drinking whiskey every day, continued to do drugs, just living as a sinner.

(05:27):
No moral compass at all.
Did you have a job at this time?
I did have jobs on and off.
Little jobs.
I remember when I was 16, I was working at Taco Villa Texas Burger over in Andrews.
Worked at Thriftway when it was here before it burned down.
Just little jobs here and there.
I did always sell drugs on the side, mostly to sustain my habit.

(05:50):
It was never nothing really major, but just to sustain my habit, I would.
So we fast forward to when I was 21 and I had my son.
Now when I was growing up, I never knew who my dad was.

(06:11):
I knew his name, that was it.
Never seen a picture of him.
Didn't know anything about him.
I ended up meeting him when I was 18 and I've gotten to know him really well.
We have a very good relationship now.
But growing up without a father, it was in my heart that I wanted to be the father I
never had to my son.

(06:33):
When I had him, I was so strung out.
It's one of my biggest regrets.
And so, of course, because of my drug habit, the mother and my child, me and her split
up.
When me and her split up, it put me in a very dark place because my whole life I told myself
I was going to be a better father than what I had.

(06:55):
And now here I am knowing that my son's going to grow up in a broken home.
And it just drove me to a really dark place.
And so because I had no hope, because I had no meaning for life, I dove even further into
the criminal lifestyle.
Started committing more severe crimes.

(07:15):
Got involved with some really heavy hitters.
And we just out there doing it, robbing people, holding people hostage, breaking into homes,
stealing cars.
I mean, whatever we could do to make money.
That's what we did.
And so I am 23.

(07:36):
Been to about five different county jails already by this time.
Somehow I never caught a felony charge.
Don't know how.
And so I am 23 and I remember I was in jail and I was getting out that Thursday.
And I get out and I party so hard that Monday morning I wake up and I don't even know how
I got there.

(07:57):
So I need to get back to Hobbs.
So I steal a car to come back to Hobbs.
And I hadn't really ate nothing since I got out of jail.
So all I could think about was food.
So I stopped at a Sonic for a cheeseburger and a stolen car.
Cops around me arrest me.
I was completely honest with the cop.
I told him exactly what was going on.

(08:18):
And I just remember he's and you stopped for a burger.
But what I was doing, it wasn't to me, it wasn't even a crime.
I was just trying to get home.
Yeah, you know, I wasn't doing it for money, you know, and so it wasn't that big of a deal
to me in my head.
So I catch my first felony charge and I am sitting in jail and a pastor walks by the

(08:38):
cell and he looks at me.
He says, hey, man, you know, Jesus and you know me.
I'm like, yeah, I know Jesus.
You know what I mean?
Yeah.
And he looks at me.
He's like, you don't know Jesus.
I was like, what?
He points his finger at me.
He said, if you knew Jesus, you wouldn't be doing what you're doing.

(09:00):
I was like, who is this guy?
You know, and then he starts saying the most wild things.
I'll never forget it.
He says, cause if you love Jesus, you shower for Jesus.
If you love Jesus, you do the dishes for Jesus.
He goes, if you love Jesus, even though you don't like onions, you eat them anyways for

(09:23):
Jesus.
And of course me, I don't even like onions.
So I was like, what?
He hands me a Bible and then walks away.
And I love telling that story because you never know what God is going to use to spark
faith.
That should have drove nobody to Jesus.

(09:45):
I agree.
You know what I mean?
As a matter of fact, I would be like, if that's what Jesus does to you, I'm out.
That's it.
Yeah.
Like what is this dude talking about?
So he hands me that Bible, walks off.
I'm just dumbfounded.
I'm like, what just happened?
You know, and I'm sitting there.
I was like, you know what?

(10:05):
I've never read this thing for myself because my thing was, is we would go to jail.
My buddies would, would become all righteous.
All of a sudden start reading the Bible.
But then as soon as we got out, we'd go right back to doing what we were doing.
And I was like, if you're going to be a gangster out there, why are you going to come in here
and be a Christian?

(10:26):
So I hated it.
I hated that, what people would do about that.
And so it pushed me away from the Bible.
I didn't want to sit in there and be a hypocrite.
And so I'm sitting there and I'm like, man, I've never opened up this thing ever.
You know, I believe there was a God.
I knew that Jesus Christ was the son, but that's it.
I knew there was a heaven and hell and I was going to hell and that's all I knew.

(10:49):
And so I opened up that Bible and of course that first page is a sinner's prayer.
And so I get down on my knees and I don't even know why.
But before I even started reading, I gave my life to Christ right then and there.
And I started reading the Bible and in 45 days, I read everything except for the historical

(11:11):
books of the Bible.
Wow.
I read the law of Moses, the prophets.
So when you prayed that prayer, did you feel different?
Could you tell you were a different person?
Absolutely.
Yes.
It was, it was instant.
I just fell in love with God.
I started reading these things and everything made sense.
It's like the blinders had come off.

(11:33):
And I remember thinking about all my friends, all my close buddies.
And I remember praying to the Lord.
I said, Lord, if they would just read these words, they wouldn't do what they're doing.
And it completely transformed me.
I fell in love.
I set on fire for him.
I had absolutely no business teaching the word of God, but instantly he put it in my

(11:58):
heart to hold Bible studies.
Wow.
And I was, and I'm looking back, I look back and I think about the things I taught and
there wasn't error.
You know what I mean?
The Holy Spirit just gave it to me.
You had a knack for it.
It just instantly, I had no business teaching the word of God.
And I know that now, but back then I was like, I'm on fire for the Lord.

(12:20):
I'm going to share this.
Other people need to know this.
To me, it was a new revelation.
I never understood until I read it.
So it completely transforms my life.
And of course, never growing up in the church, I didn't know anything about denominations.
And so I'm in jail and the guy sees me reading this Bible intensely.

(12:42):
He's like, so what are you, man?
I was like, I'm a Christian.
And he's like, yeah, yeah, I know that, man.
But like, what are you?
Are you Baptist?
Are you Pentecostal?
Are you Presbyterian?
I said, look, man, I don't even know what those are.
I'm just a Christian, man.
But when he said that, I literally got scared of getting out because I had no idea what

(13:04):
church was.
And I knew I wanted to be a part of it because these are the same people that have read this
book and have the same knowledge I do now.
And so I wanted to be a part of it, but I was so scared of going to the wrong church.
And I ended up getting out and my brother was actually taking his courses to become

(13:25):
a minister.
Me and him went in two different-
What kind of group was he with?
So he was with Assemblies of God at the time.
And he was getting his credentials through them.
So just once again, I know that feeling because after I'd gotten saved, the television was
my church.
And whenever I started going to churches with my wife to this little house church, it was

(13:46):
just a bunch of people who were just as screwed up as I was.
And so I felt comfortable there.
But whenever I decided to transfer to Oral Roberts University, that's like real Christians,
real church people.
And I remember being scared to death because I didn't think I would know how to act around
actual Christians.
It's a scary feeling.

(14:08):
It is.
That's an important thing to remember for church people, for new people that come in.
The fear is real.
It is.
It is, man.
It is.
And so I ended up getting out.
I hadn't told my brother yet that I was saved.
He'd been praying for me.
I've had so many people come up to me and tell me, you have no idea how much we prayed

(14:29):
for you.
The whole time I was out there doing what I was doing, every now and then he would show
up and he'd be like, hey, man, let's go to church.
And I'd be like, dude, I got drugs in my pocket right now.
You think I'm going to go to church?
You know what I mean?
You know what I do.
Quit.
Yeah.
But it had to have a break in his heart.
All those times he asked me to go.
So he has no idea, right?
I remember calling him up.

(14:49):
I said, hey, man, what are you doing?
I'm up here at church.
It was Wednesday night.
And I'm like, OK.
I was like, hey, man, is it cool if I come through?
And man, he's like, what?
Yes.
Yeah, exactly.
I'll come get you.
He was so happy.
And so I remember going.
It was a Wednesday night, man.

(15:10):
And they were doing a service.
And I remember that pastor pulled me up.
He said, we got to stop everything.
He said, I need you to come up here.
I'm like, man, what's going on?
You know, did Jay set this up?
You know, my brother?
He said, he set this up.
And he didn't.
He didn't set it up at all.
I'll talk to him about it later.
And that guy pulls me up.
He said, look, man, this whole service, God has been showing me that there is a calling

(15:31):
on your life and that He has set you apart.
He's like, so we're going to put oil on you.
We're going to pray for you.
And did you know that at that point?
No, I knew that I was on fire for the Lord and that I wanted to share His gospel.
That's all I knew.
But whenever he said that, it rang true.
You knew that you took ownership of it right there.

(15:53):
I kept it in my mind.
OK, I didn't know exactly what it meant.
I knew that God had called me.
OK, and I knew that He set me apart for something.
But as for what that was, that wasn't even in my mind.
All I cared about.
I knew God was definitely speaking to you and laying hold of you for something.
Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.

(16:14):
Yeah.
No doubt in my mind.
He had completely transformed me.
And I knew that He had a purpose for me.
And so I get into church, man, and I end up staying at that church, getting baptized at
that church.
And we started a Bible study.
We called it Bible study in the ghetto.

(16:35):
And we would go to the city park here.
And we would just hold Bible studies on the weekend.
Manna Outreach ended up allowing us to hold Bible studies there.
And anybody staying there had to attend these Bible studies.
And we were just doing street evangelism.
You know, I was just trying to pull anybody I can in.
And it was a beautiful, I mean, you know how it is.

(16:58):
Yeah.
When you come to the Lord.
When you're a brand new Christian, you get that new car smell.
Yeah.
Honeymoon season.
Oh, I was on cloud nine.
You know, just doing great.
And so life goes on, right?
I am working at a new job.
And they start playing music I used to listen to, you know.

(17:24):
And when I heard that, how far are you into your faith right here?
Like, what do you mean by how far in your faith?
Like from the time that you kneel down in that prison cell to hear how much time has
passed.
Okay.
Three years.
Three years.
Okay.
Yeah.
No, probably been about two and a half years.

(17:44):
Two and a half years.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
And so.
So you're like from 23 to 25.
Yes.
Yeah.
And yeah, I'm 25.
And I'm working this job.
And they start playing this music.
And it's the music I used to listen to.
And I'm a sucker for music.
I have such a passion for music.
I always have.

(18:05):
Even when I was very young, man, I remember they were like, anybody want to join the choir?
I was the only boy that raised my hand.
I was like, I want, because I just love music.
Music is a passion that God has placed in my heart.
And I hear this music and I'm like, man, I kind of miss that music.
You know, I kind of miss it.
And so I start listening to it on the side, you know, here and there.

(18:27):
And when you live the life I live and you do the things I do, you make enemies.
People do things to you and to your loved ones that is unacceptable.
And as an unregenerated person, I mean, you just, you want to take their life.

(18:50):
I'm just going to be honest with you.
There was people that had did things to me that they were going to die because of it.
Now when I came to Christ, I let all that go.
I came to Christ and I said, I don't want to hold that hate in my heart.
I don't want to have that desire in my heart so I forgive them and I give it over to you.

(19:10):
And I never thought about it again.
You know, I thought I truly forgave these people.
But when I started listening to this music again, you know, at the time, I mean I'm a
new Christian.
I had no idea how much things influence you, you know, your ears and your eyes.

(19:30):
Well, especially when you're not yet a fully developed, mature Christian.
Right.
Yes.
And that's the thing that, you know, a lot of people who have get real religion in prison,
but they're not mature.
They're still immature.
Yes.
And so they don't have the strength to resist all of the programming that they've grown

(19:52):
up with that causes them to do.
They have weaknesses, they have vulnerabilities and they haven't developed the strength to
overcome their programming in sinful things.
Right.
Yeah.
Plus the demons that still know how to push your buttons.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.

(20:12):
Yeah.
So you're at work and you're listening to these songs and it's stirring up old grudges.
So I start remembering the things that people had done to me.
In particular, there's this one guy, you know, he was like a father to me.
You know, there's two men in my life that they were my father figures.

(20:35):
I looked up to them.
I respected them and they were just the coolest people now in the eyes of the world.
Absolute heathens.
But I have more respect for these guys than I do some outstanding Christians.
Yeah.
I mean, I've seen a side of them that the world doesn't see, you know.

(20:56):
And I remember this one gentleman that I looked up to as a father and he was killed.
You know, they killed him.
And it was a stab in my heart.
It affected me greatly.

(21:17):
And he was like a father that you never had.
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
And so, so, so when he was killed, I was angry at the people that killed him, but he had
an enemy.
And of course they were both trying to kill each other.
They had several shootouts.
I mean, they were always trying to get each other and he tried to take credit for what

(21:40):
happened to him.
And as mad as I was at the people who did kill him, I was even more mad at this guy.
And as I was listening to this music, these old thoughts started coming back in.
You really going to let these people slide?
You really going to let them get away with the things they did?

(22:01):
And instantly I recognized it as pure evil.
And I just went to God and I said, Lord, you got to take these thoughts out of my head.
You got to take these thoughts out of my heart.
I don't want that.
Right?
But me, being stubborn, continue to listen to music.
Somehow not realizing that that's what was putting those thoughts in my head in the first

(22:26):
place.
And so I battled this for like three months where I'm just praying like every day.
And I'm like, Lord, take these thoughts, take this desire out of my heart.
And it was a horrible three months.
It was.
And I felt like he was not answering my prayer because these thoughts continued to come in.

(22:50):
And of course, I know now looking back, I was allowing it in.
I was allowing things into my soul that was corrupting me from the inside out.
I was doing it.
For all I know, God was taking it out every single time I prayed.
And then here I am putting it back in.
I remember getting so angry at God.

(23:16):
And finally, I came to my breaking point and I said, Lord, I'm not asking for a woman.
I'm not asking for money.
I'm not asking for a better job.
I said, I'm asking you to take evil out of my heart.
And if you're not going to do it, well, then I'm going to go take care of business.
And when I'm done, maybe we can try this thing again.

(23:38):
And at that moment, I completely shut him out of my life.
I stopped praying.
I stopped reading.
I stopped going to church, quit ministry, shut everything down.
And as you can imagine, things got really bad really quick.
Well, it's like you cast the story in the Bible where you cast one demon out and he

(23:59):
comes back with seven more.
Exactly.
Yes.
So I slowly end up drinking again.
Drinking brings me to doing drugs again.
Doing drugs again leads me to the more harder drugs again.
And before you know it, I am having to take a drug test for work.

(24:22):
And I tell my boss to say, hey, man, thanks for the opportunity, but I'm going to fail.
No point in me taking it.
Thanks.
But I got to go.
So I quit my job.
You still got to make money.
So I went to the only thing I knew.
And of course, the guy that I had that grudge with, we come into each other's lives.

(24:49):
And the thing about the sickness of the streets is when you're out to get somebody, I mean
that saying you keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
I mean, that's so real.
Because we both knew where we stood.
Either I was going to get him or he was going to get me.

(25:11):
We both had this understanding.
We both knew it.
But we were always together waiting for the opportune time to make it happen.
And things just got worse and worse.
And before you know it, I am in so far.

(25:31):
I am moving a lot of drugs.
I mean, people I used to look up to and idolize when I was younger, I surpassed them.
You were him.
I was above them.
Yeah, you were above them.
I made it to where I always wanted to be in life.
And I started doing things that I had never done before.

(25:54):
And I did some work.
I mean, you've heard the testimony.
I've done some wicked things, but it got even darker.
Like you said, he brings in seven demons, even worse.
It got bad.
And this is somebody that knew God.
This is somebody that had been awakened to righteousness.
And it just keeps getting further and further down.
And so I clearly remember it.

(26:18):
I was weighing out a big shipment that just came in and clear as day, I hear, okay, that's
enough.
It's time to come back home.
And I knew who it was.
And I just shook it off.
You know what I'm saying?
Get out of here.
And they're done.

(26:39):
Don't want no part of that.
Yeah.
And then a couple of weeks later, it happens again.
All right, that's enough.
It's time to come back.
I shook it off again.
You know, like, no, I mean, I was that money was too good and not just the money, the lifestyle

(26:59):
house free as a bird.
I thought, you know, yeah, just do whatever I wanted.
And then I was so trapped.
So the cops ended up hitting me at a motel and they charged me with three felony charges.
I bond out.
A little bit later, they raid my house.

(27:23):
The drug task force raids my house, catch two more felony charges and bond out again.
Still, just going hard.
Didn't slow you down any?
No, didn't care.
Did not care.
On top of that, my right hand man, my best friend dies.

(27:43):
We are 26, 26 year old, you know, I mean, and I can't even count on my hands.
How many people I was really close to that had been killed in the streets.
I mean, just left and right.
People I love just killed, taken out at a young age.
And so I lose, I lose my buddy.

(28:06):
I'm out on two different bonds facing five felony charges.
And I'm like, I'm just going to run.
There's no point.
I'm either going to die or they're going to catch me.
End of story.
So I'm just going hard.
And I remember I'm sitting there one day and me and this lady were smoking dope and the

(28:30):
whole atmosphere just changed.
I don't know how to explain it.
You know, she started talking, not like herself, you know, and you can chop it up to whatever
you want to chop it up to, but she started saying things and I was sitting there listening,
like, what is going on?

(28:51):
Like, you know, they're just into the Twilight zone, you know, like what is going on?
And she says, she says, you know, what's sad?
I was like, what?
What's sad?
She said, there's people out there that they are addicted to drugs.

(29:12):
They have no hope in life.
They're depressed.
They just want to die.
They want to kill themselves.
There's no hope, nothing to live for.
And they don't even realize that if they would just turn to Jesus, he could heal them and
restore them.
At me, I'm like, yeah, so what?

(29:32):
You know what I mean?
Just hard, hard, hard.
I mean, just a horrible, oh man.
She goes almost as if she was anticipating me having that reaction.
She goes, but you know what's even sadder than that?
She says, those that do know who God is, those that do know his power and know that he can

(29:57):
save them and because they're being selfish and living in their sin and not going out
and doing what they were called to do, that's why they are living with no hope.
And man, it broke me.
That one got you.
It got me, man.
He knew right where to hit me.
And I remember I dropped that pipe and I went to the bathroom, man, and I got down on my

(30:21):
knees and I just started bawling.
You know, it talks about the prodigal son when he came to his senses.
It was all crystal clear.
I realized I had been deceived.
I realized I had been played a fool by the enemy and I was out here doing his work.
I mean, I felt like an idiot.
I'm sorry.
I just felt so foolish, man.

(30:42):
And so I get down on my knees and I said, Lord, I'm not going to ask you to fix anything
in my life.
I've brought this upon my own head.
But if you're still willing to use me, here I am.
And I dedicated my life to him right then and there, rededicated.

(31:04):
And the thing is, man, is the scriptures talk about as a dog returns to his own vomit, as
a pig goes back to playing in the mud, those that turn back are not worthy to be his disciples.
And I willingly turned my back on him.

(31:24):
He called out to me not once, not twice, but three times reached out to me.
He could have completely abandoned me and been justified in what he did.
He could have let me die or go to prison for the rest of my life and be completely justified
because of what I did.

(31:46):
But the mercy that he would reach out and touch someone who has trampled over the blood
of the cross.
I mean, treated it as something common.
I mean, to this day, it blows my mind that I will never grasp his mercy.
I won't never.
I mean, maybe when we're perfected.

(32:07):
But in this life, I can't grasp it.
I can't understand it.
Makes no sense.
And so, of course, if anybody has ever backslidden to that degree, they know how hard it is.
To climb out of that pit you walked into.

(32:28):
And so, the next month, all I can describe it is, is every single day, it was like I
was trying to walk forward and everything was just holding me back and trying to walk
forward and trying to get out of that.
And it was just the hardest battle I've ever had.

(32:51):
That month was, it was hell.
Because the enemy doesn't want to let you go.
Your flesh doesn't want to let go.
You know what I mean?
But I knew that I could not stay there.
And so, I just kept moving forward, kept on moving forward.
And it was a long month, but I got clean.

(33:12):
I started going back to church.
Started getting discipled.
And I remember I went to my lawyer, told him the story, blew his mind.
You know, he said, what do you mean you found God?
You know what I mean?
I saw you in prison?
How do you do that?

(33:33):
And so, luckily, my court date hadn't passed yet.
So I actually wasn't even on the rung yet.
And so, we go to the court.
You know, I was willing to face whatever was going to happen.
I was facing five felony charges.
The state gave me a plea deal.

(33:55):
They said, if you will plead guilty to two of these felonies, we will drop three of them.
Sound like a good deal to me.
So I take the plea deal.
And then my lawyer ends up getting another one of the felonies dropped down to a misdemeanor.
Wow.
So I got charged with one felony facing five.

(34:19):
And I'm just so thankful.
You know, I didn't deserve it at all.
And so now I'm a two-time felon.
But this was my first felony in New Mexico.
So they just give me probation.
I don't even do any jail time.
I'm like, what in the world?
You know?
Yeah.

(34:40):
And so I get a job.
I start working again.
I'm getting discipled and getting ready to get back into ministry, getting ready to get
back to doing what I know I was supposed to be doing, whatever that looked like.
And then one day, my probation officer calls me up and asks me to come see him.

(35:02):
And so walking down the hall, walking down the hall, and then we turn a corner.
And there's this door open.
And he's like, right through here.
And as soon as I turn the corner, I see drug task force agents, ATF agents, suited and
booted, about seven of them in there.
My probation officer pushes me in, says, these gentlemen would like to have a word with you,
and shuts the door.

(35:24):
Yikes.
So I'm sitting there.
And they're telling me that the feds are picking up the charges that the state dropped.
And that I was going to be facing two felony charges.
And of course, I deserved it.
I deserved way worse.
But in the moment, I'm like, Lord, what is this?

(35:45):
In my head, I'm praying.
I'm like, Lord, what is this?
What is this?
And over and over again, the same scripture just keeps coming back, keeps coming back.
Have I not commanded you?
Be strong and have good courage.
Yes.
Do not be afraid nor be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.
Wherever you step your foot.
That's it.
And it just kept on coming, kept on coming.

(36:06):
I'm like, OK.
All right, Lord, I trust you.
And so they handcuffed me.
They took me to Roswell to stand before the judge.
Now just in case a lot of people don't understand, the feds is, that's the big times.
In the state, at least it was back then, I don't know about now, but in the state of

(36:29):
New Mexico at the time, the charge of felony possession with a firearm, the max sentence
you can get in the state is 18 months in prison.
In the feds, it's 10 years.
So a lot more severe.
You're sweating bullets at this time.
Oh, man.
I don't know what's going to happen.
The judge is telling me that the max I'm facing is 20 years.

(36:51):
And I'm like, I put it on Paul myself.
You know, I did it to myself.
But I knew that the Lord was going to do something in it.
And so the very first cell they sent me in, they sent me in the cell waiting to see this
judge and this dude breaks down.
He starts crying and I'm like, Hey man, do you know who Jesus is?

(37:19):
Lead this dude to the sinner's prayer.
Right.
And right then I knew I said, okay, Lord, I know your mission field.
I know exactly what you're doing.
I'm going on a mission strip, you know?
And later on, this dude tells me he's like, I have never cried in front of another man
in my life.
But as soon as you stepped in, I just got convicted.

(37:42):
Wow.
I was like, all right, Lord.
All right.
And man, the amount of people that I had the privilege of leading to the Lord of discipling
of a man, numerous people, it was such a great, and it's hard to say that prison was great,

(38:03):
but man, prison was great.
Great for the ministry.
It was.
Yeah.
Man, and it was hard, but man.
I was going to ask you that.
I've, you know, cause I've been to prison, I've been locked up with the guys before and
I've caught myself thinking, this ain't so bad.
This is just a bunch of dudes hanging out.
Right.
You know?

(38:24):
Right.
And if I get me wrong, there was times I seen some things that would scare anybody.
Yeah.
I mean, I've seen some things, some people get handled.
I mean, it's bad, but the Lord was with me every single day.
There was almost a riot in one of my pods.

(38:45):
You had peace in the.
And yes.
And then just the whole time God was, God was with me, you know?
And so, and so I do this, I do this time, the three years, I'm now a four time convicted
felon and I get out having no idea what's next.

(39:07):
I just know that I want to keep on doing what I've been doing in this prison.
I want to keep on ministering to people.
I want to keep on discipling people.
I want to keep on sharing the love of God.
That's all I knew.
Right.
So I get out and I'm 29 when I get out, went in when I was 26, 29 and man, God has just

(39:32):
poured blessing upon blessing.
I should not be where I'm at right now.
I should not, and it's not about the material things, but I should not have what I have
right now.
God has put so many blessings on me since I was released.
You know, I've now been released for coming up on five years and no, it hasn't been five

(39:55):
years.
It's going to be coming up on six years and man, it's just been blessing after blessing
after blessing.
I never knew happiness until I met my wife.
You know, I knew the joy of the Lord and that peace, but man, the wife.
He gave me, Oh man, cause it was him.

(40:18):
Yeah.
I mean to this day, me and her have never had a fight with each other.
Now we've had some hard times and we've been mad at each other, but we have never fought.
We've never raised our voices at each other.
It's gotten close, but man before it wouldn't be two weeks before I'd already broken up

(40:40):
with whatever girl I was with.
I mean, that was just the norm.
You get together, you fight, you break up, you get back together.
That's just what it is.
When there's no peace that automatically just spills out onto the people around you.
And so I meet this godly woman.
We fall in love, we get married.
I mean, six months after meeting her, we were saying I do.

(41:01):
I knew she was the one instantly.
She knew I was the one and God has just blessed us.
Oh my goodness.
And I don't deserve it.
I really don't.
And so here I am.
Eight years since I was charged with those federal felonies and man, it's just been,

(41:29):
it's been such a blessing.
The whole eight years God has been with me and just allowing me to serve in the church
and in just a funny side story.
And I used to tell this to my last pastor all the time, he would get a kick out of it.
In my mind, I thought the church was good.

(41:50):
They have the word.
Not only do they have the word, but they have the word preached to them.
Not only do they have the word preached to them, but they have fellowship with one another.
Oh, the church is good.
I'm going to go disciple the criminals.
I'm going to go disciple the drug addicts.
I'm going to go disciple the homeless people.
Right?
The church is good.

(42:10):
And so that's always been my passion was the streets, always street ministry.
And when I was released, I felt like the Lord was changing that.
And I felt through prayer that he was telling me that I need to focus on the church and

(42:33):
I didn't understand why.
And then I started doing ministry in the church and I was blown away.
Not as pretty on the inside as it is from the outside, is it?
These people know nothing.
How do you not know these basic truths?
People that and I love them to death.

(42:53):
They got the kindest heart, but people who've been in the church for 30 years don't know
the basics of the gospel.
You're telling me I was blown away.
Yeah.
I couldn't believe it.
And so I started doing discipleship courses in the church, started serving as a deacon

(43:15):
in the church, started working in the capacity of an assistant pastor, associate pastor.
I was the pastor's right hand man there for whatever he needed, preaching on Wednesdays,
preaching on Sundays, and just discipling the body of Christ.
And oh my goodness, I loved it.
The thing I was always saying, I don't need to do that because it's taken care of.

(43:39):
And man, I think I have more joy discipling God's body than I did bringing people in.
You know, it's like I've shared this.
It's like I get to contemplate the things of God and then share that with whoever will
come and listen.
And there's nothing better than that.

(44:01):
Yes.
It's getting to behold or gaze upon God with the eyes of our spirit through the word.
Yes.
It releases energy and that energy produces great joy and pleasure whenever it's revealed.
And there's nothing like it.

(44:21):
It does.
It does.
And so much joy.
But what impressed me, so you came Wednesday night and I'm asking the class this, it's
kind of a, for some reason the word escapes me, a question you don't expect anyone to
answer.
Right.
What do they call that?
A pondering question.
That's what I would name it.
Question to ponder upon, to meditate on.

(44:42):
Anyways, I didn't expect anyone to answer the question.
Right.
I just wanted to sit there and let it linger and let people think about it.
Yeah.
And here this guy I've never met before in the back pipes up and I'm like, okay, let's
wait here.
This guy's going to ramble on about it.
Right.
And I'm listening and I'm like, I've got to catch this on microphone.

(45:03):
So I walked to the back of the room and you answered this really kind of deep, obscure
answer to this question from Revelation and I'm like, who is this guy?
You know?
Yeah.
And hearing your story, that really impresses me even more because like I say, I didn't
start studying eschatology till I was probably your age right now.

(45:25):
Right.
You know?
Yeah.
I was a campus pastor.
I was teaching Bible courses at the college and I wouldn't have been able to answer that
question and so I was like, okay, I've got to find out who this guy is.
So we had about an hour long conversation after that class and so I want to hear about

(45:46):
your self-taught.
I can't say self-taught.
Okay.
Tell me how you've kind of grown and developed in your understanding of scripture.
So I think a huge benefit and you know, I envy people that got to grow up in the church.
I think it was a blessing that I didn't grow up in the church because the church didn't

(46:14):
teach me the word of God.
Okay?
I came to the Bible knowing absolutely nothing and of course I read a book.
There's a lesson in this.
Okay.
Because I have said the exact same thing before.
Okay?
It's almost like the kids that grow up in the church are trained to think this is a

(46:37):
completely boring, irrelevant book and they develop this disinterest in what is in there
because they've just been trained to think, oh, it's just Zacchaeus in a tree, agreeing
to follow Jesus, blah, blah, blah.
You know?
Yeah.
And they develop blinders to the wonders and mysteries that are in there.

(47:01):
Oh yes.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
And so not being indoctrinated by any denomination, I came to this thing as a blank slate and
I remember when I first started reading the Bible, I came across this book and it said
one of the most powerful messages I think today and anytime I give anybody a Bible,

(47:28):
I teach them this lesson.
And the lesson was is that without God's help, we cannot understand what this book is saying.
And so it said, you be sure and pray every single time before you open up this Bible,
you pray and you ask for the Holy Spirit to illuminate your mind and help you to understand

(47:50):
what you are reading.
And of course, Corinthians backs us up completely.
You know, the natural man does not comprehend the things of the spirit.
That's right.
For he can't.
Yep.
He cannot understand these things.
They are only spiritually discerned.
And so that's the most vital message is that if you're going to start reading the Bible,

(48:11):
you need to have that understanding that without his help, you will not grasp what he is saying.
Absolutely.
And so that's been my message from the beginning.
And so I come to the Bible and every time I pray, I say, Lord, illuminate these words.
Help me to understand it.
So I get in the Bible and I read and I'm just fascinated by it.
I'm intrigued by it.
I'm just soaking it all in.

(48:33):
And so the Bible has always been my passion.
The importance of understanding this, because if you understand this, you will not be deceived.
Because Jesus said deception is going to come.
Right.
And it's good that we lead people to prayer and it's good that we invite them to the church

(48:53):
and it's good, you know, that we do these things.
But he said, go and disciple the nations.
Well and it says explicitly in Timothy, Timothy, guard your doctrine closely.
Yes.
Because by it, you will save not only yourself, but your ears.
Yes, absolutely.
By your doctrine, which is based upon the revelation of scripture.

(49:16):
That's it.
Yeah.
And so that's always been my passion.
That's why I always held Bible study.
That's all I was doing the discipleship courses.
You know, I enjoyed those things because I seen the importance of it.
If we can grasp this and understand this, you will not be deceived.
Right.
Yeah.
And so I get into it and I love it.

(49:37):
And I was telling you about when I came back and, you know, came back to the Lord that
I started getting discipled by this pastor.
Okay.
And I had always read the Bible for myself.
But then in the church, you would just hear these sermons and yeah, you might learn something
here and there, but there wasn't really teaching.

(50:00):
The only teaching I really ever seen was the teaching I was doing.
And so when I started getting discipled, this pastor started taking me to the scripture
and it was almost like a systematic approach and just showing me these topics and then
showing me how these Bibles back up that topic.
And some of the topics he taught on, I later on ended up disagreeing with, but it opened

(50:23):
up my eyes to a new way to study the God's word.
And then I've always loved concordances.
Oh my goodness.
That's a beautiful way to study the Bible.
If I want to know about sanctification, I'm going to look up every single time sanctification
is in the Bible and then I'm going to read every single verse that has to do with sanctification

(50:45):
and then pray the whole time and God just opens it up and then you understand a topic
that you wanted to learn.
I mean, concordances are gold.
I'm sorry, man.
Those exhaustive concordances, I love studying that way.
You know, I want to look up every single time a prophet was mentioned.
Let's see what the Bible has to say, you know?
And so when I was in prison, you know, I told you I ended up in an Assemblies of God church

(51:11):
and later on when I'm in prison, I remember thinking, you know what?
I'm going to test every doctrine I've been taught and I'm going to make sure it stands
up to scripture because if it doesn't, I don't want it.
And so I came at it almost like a blank slate again and I went through the scriptures and
if I could not prove a teaching that I had been taught by the scriptures, I cast it to

(51:35):
the side, right?
And then of course when God would allow me to preach His word, I mean, honestly, the
biggest revelations have come through teaching God's word.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, the Holy Spirit will give you something that you did not know.
That's why I encourage people, even if you don't have a class, talk to your neighbor,
talk to your grandkids.

(51:56):
And someone to tell about what God is showing you and you just, it's that principle with
the measure that you use, it will be measured to you.
That doesn't just apply to money.
Come on.
Right?
Yes, absolutely.
Yes.
And so those were my biggest revelations.
I would be teaching on scripture, man, and the Holy Spirit would just drop something
on me and I would say it and as I'm saying it, I am learning the thing.

(52:23):
So doing a lot of teaching, I learned a lot that way.
That was my biggest, you know, and it's important to study the Bible, but if I'm being completely
honest, that's how I gained the majority of my understanding of the truths.
And well, it says that in Matthew chapter five, if you do these things and teach others

(52:49):
to do the same, you will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Amen.
If you do these things and teach others to do the same, you will be called least in the
kingdom of heaven.
So it's everyone's invitation to become great through receiving and teaching, you know,

(53:11):
making disciples.
We are a royal priesthood.
Amen.
We are all priests of God.
Yeah.
It doesn't matter what ministry he's put in your path.
It doesn't matter what gifts he's given you, where you're designed to serve.
We're all priests unto our Lord.
And typically the thing that scares people the most, and this is why your testimony is

(53:36):
so powerful.
What scares people the most from doing that is feeling unworthy.
Oh, yes.
Absolutely.
And this is why I think God loves people like you so much.
Because you know, the Bible is full of people like you.
Yeah.
It's because God loves courage.

(53:56):
Yeah.
God loves risk takers.
Yeah.
God loves people who do not let obstacles or setbacks or shortcomings dictate their
future.
Yeah.
You know, you look at all of the.

(54:18):
I never once heard you feeling sorry for yourself, for your background, for your upbringing,
through any of that.
It was all about what can I do here and now to make a life, even when you were in sin,
what can I do here and now to make a life that I want to live?
Right.
You know?

(54:39):
Yeah.
And so I think God, God sees those things and he admires them.
You know?
So if I'm being completely honest.
OK.
I'm going to share something with you.
OK.
So I told you that I had no idea what God was calling me to.
OK.
But once I started discipling in the church, I.

(55:00):
I felt like God was calling me to become a pastor.
And so I started working towards getting my credentials and I was on the fast track of
getting my own church, becoming a senior pastor, you know?
And I was excited.
But at the same time, I still had a little bit of baggage.

(55:23):
I still had some sins that they weren't controlling me.
But every now and then they would creep back in.
Every now and then they would creep back in.
And so I'm getting closed up with God a lot.
I'm just like, Lord, this has got to go.
I can't step into this next calling because I think the Bible is very clear.
Not many of you should want to be teachers.

(55:44):
That's right.
OK.
The qualifications, especially for one that's going to lead the flock.
The head shepherd.
That's not something to take lightly.
And anytime I get behind the pulpit, I'm extremely humbled because.

(56:07):
The opportunity to preach God's word on the Lord's Day to the Lord's people.
That's not something to be taken lightly.
You should be humbled and you should do it in fear.
That's just always been my mindset because you are being the voice of God to his body,
the ones whom he loves.

(56:28):
And no authority is given except such by God.
And so God, if God has allowed you to do that, the severity of it.
And so I'm like, Lord, I'm about to step into this next season of my life.
And I cannot step into that season with these things still in my life.
And I know we're never going to be perfect.

(56:50):
Right.
But something was off.
And it got to the point where.
He wasn't first anymore.
I was leading discipleship classes.
I was preaching regularly.
And so when it came time to preach, I'd have to go into the prayer closet and I'd have

(57:13):
to surrender my life to God and just get closed in with him because I'm not going up there
on my own.
You know what Moses said, if you don't go with me, I'm not going to go.
You know, so I refused to step behind the pulpit if this was not where it should be.
And so I would go back into the prayer class and I'd get right with the Lord and then he

(57:35):
would use me, man, just the anointing would be poured out and I would be preaching God's
word like on fire for a man just.
And then as the week progressed, it died down again.
And I am not reading anymore, not praying anymore until the next time it came for a
sermon.
And I remember I was just like, Lord, what's it going to take?

(57:57):
Because I am not going to step into this.
The roller coaster.
No, this is not.
This isn't right.
I knew it was wrong.
And so I'm asking God what it's going to take and constantly, constantly I felt like he
was telling me that I needed to step down.
And I remember praying and I was like, Lord, if is this how it's going to be?

(58:18):
Am I going to have to step down every time something comes on?
I mean, you know, I felt like he was saying, we're doing this now so that this will not
come up later.
And I didn't know what that meant, but I trusted him.
I said, OK.
And so at the time I was secretary of the board serving, you know, in the capacity of

(58:41):
an associate pastor about on my way to get my credentials and possibly start leading
a church.
And we go on a board meeting, a board retreat and had a wonderful time.
Oh, my goodness.
It was the best weekend, which made it so much harder because I knew I was about to
have to tell my brothers that I'm stepping down.

(59:02):
Oh, it was so hard because we had such a good time.
But I was obedient and I told them that something's not right and I'm going to step down.
And you know, there was some that tried to tell me like, I think that's right, you know,
and I had made up my mind.

(59:23):
So that Sunday I was actually preaching.
And so I told the congregation, I said, you know what, at the end of this message, I've
got an announcement to make.
And it came time.
And of course, me in my head, I'm like, this is the test.
You know, it's the Abraham going up on the mountain to sacrifice his son moment, right?
God just wants to see if I'm going to do it.
You know what I mean?

(59:44):
And so I tell the congregation, I said, look, I am not going to stand here and tell you
to put Jesus Christ first if I'm not doing it myself.
So I told them I'm going to be stepping down for a season and just seeking the Lord and
just fixing this, whatever this is, fixing it.

(01:00:05):
And so I was obedient and I thought that was going to be the hard part.
And it wasn't.
Things, things came up that I didn't even know were in there.
Thoughts and desires that I had no idea was still in there.
And I just remember praying and saying, I know you did not bring me this far just to

(01:00:29):
give up on me now.
And it was a hard battle.
I mean, my wife had to see a side of me that she'd never seen.
All she's seen is this, you know, walking with Jesus, doing the work of the Lord.
She never seen that side of me.
Yes, man of God, right?
The kids, they never seen this side of me.
You know, the church, the people I had been discipling and teaching about God, they never

(01:00:56):
seen me like this.
And it was embarrassing and it broke me and I hated it with a passion.
But coming out the other end of it, that baggage is gone.
He knew what he was doing.
I didn't understand it.
I absolutely hated it, but he knew what he was doing.

(01:01:19):
He was purifying me.
And in the middle of it, right?
And this is the whole reason I bring all this up.
In the middle of that season, I remember telling myself, I'm disqualified.
I disqualify myself.
I am not worthy to be a pastor.

(01:01:40):
I am not worthy to do that.
I'm just gonna have to do something else.
I don't know.
Maybe I'll be an evangelist.
You know what I mean?
Maybe there's other things I could do.
Maybe I'll just be a deacon my whole life.
Maybe I'm just meant to disciple the body of Christ and say, I don't care.
But it's obvious to me, I'm not worthy because I've already backslidden once.

(01:02:01):
I've already completely turned away from God and he had mercy on me.
And now this?
And I just, I wasn't worthy.
And I made it up on my mind and it hurt because that's what I wanted.
I had grown to love that ministry and I wanted to be a pastor.
And so it hurt and it was hard.
And it made me stay in that season a little bit longer, I think.

(01:02:24):
But I finally came to the point where I was like, okay, I'm okay with it.
I'm okay with it.
And so I said, okay, Lord, then show me, you know, after I come out of it, show me what
I'm supposed to do.
And he's calling me to be a pastor.
And I'm like, what?

(01:02:45):
You know what I mean?
Like, what do you mean?
And it finally got to the point where I had to tell myself, do not lean on your own understanding.
His ways are not my ways.
His thoughts are not my thoughts.
Do I think I'm worthy?
No.

(01:03:05):
But if he tells me, then that's enough.
Yeah.
If he's telling me I'm worthy, then why am I trying to argue with the creator of heaven
and earth?
And so I said, okay, I'll keep pursuing it.
And so it hasn't always been, you know, I know I'm supposed to be doing this.
There was doubts.

(01:03:26):
Sure.
There was times when I questioned it.
There was times when I made up in my mind I wasn't going to be a pastor, you know, because
I do highly respect that.
I think the Bible is too clear to take that lightly.
And man, he's just he has made it plainstakingly clear that that's what he's calling me to.

(01:03:47):
And I said, okay, if that's your will, I'm not going to lean on understanding.
So tell me your story about coming to the global Methodist church.
Okay.
All right.
That's again that.
Yeah.
I find it odd that completely independently you arrived at the conclusion that you agreed

(01:04:12):
with Methodist doctrine and theology.
Yeah.
Right.
So it took me it took me quite some time to get there myself, you know.
So I was in the Methodist church.
So just so you know, I had been studying other denominations for quite some time.

(01:04:34):
It started when when I was in prison, we had this Anglican priest chaplain and I sat under
him for eight months.
He's basically a Methodist.
Yeah.
And so he was throwing every book at me that he could to try to convince me to become an
Anglican priest.

(01:04:54):
Okay.
I mean, he was fighting tooth and nail for me to become an Anglican priest.
And of course, I got to ask him and he was more Catholic than I think most Anglican priest
are.
I mean, he was full blown, just praying to Mary.
I mean, he you know, I don't think all Anglicans are as tied into that style as he was, but

(01:05:21):
he was he was full blown Catholic.
And it opened up my eyes and to a lot of things that I didn't understand.
I mean, I had questions.
Why do you do this?
Why do you believe this way?
Why do you think this?
Show me the scriptures.
And so I got to be discipled by him for for eight months.
Okay.
And he gave me several books trying to convert me.

(01:05:41):
And you know, it was good.
It was such a learning experience.
And I love the way he did his services and stuff.
But I just wasn't convinced.
There was too many teachings that he held to that he could not prove by the scriptures.
And so I was like, okay, you know, and I was studying through him to learn the Catholic
faith, you know, whether Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox.

(01:06:05):
I mean, he was one that was going to teach me why they believe the way they believe.
And it was a learning experience and I very much enjoyed it.
Great time.
I also studied, you know, the other stuff out there.
You know, I studied what did Jehovah's Witness believe?
I studied what the Mormons believe that more so so that I could evangelize them.

(01:06:32):
Because if you don't know where they're coming from, you can't relate to them.
But if you know what scriptures are using and why they believe the way they do, then
you can meet them at their level.
So that would have been helpful for me.
Just a few years ago, I had a Jehovah's Witness come to my door.
Oh, okay.
So I just started asking questions.
Yeah, we're going to figure out where their beliefs are wrong.
Right.

(01:06:52):
I mean, I was a pastor of a church.
You know, just a few years ago.
Yeah.
I couldn't find anything we disagreed on.
I'm like, well, glad to have you here.
God bless you.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
I suspect a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses basically believe correct Christian doctrine.

(01:07:15):
They don't really know what their church teaches.
Exactly.
A lot of them I've come across and I've got family members in Jehovah's Witness and I
will ask them questions.
You know, what do you believe about Jesus?
You know, do you believe he's a created being?
Oh, no, he's not a created being.
And I'm like, what are you doing?

(01:07:35):
You're a crummy Jehovah's Witness.
You know, so a lot of them believe great doctrine.
Yeah.
They just don't understand what the denomination as a whole is teaching, what their core beliefs
are.
You know, but to be honest with you, it's like that in every church.
I'm sure there's plenty of Methodists who have no idea what the core doctrines of Methodist
beliefs is.

(01:07:56):
I've been at it in like four different states.
Umpteen.
I mean, yes, you're right.
Yeah.
And so, you know, I've told people all the time, yeah, I believe there's some people
in the Jehovah's Witness that are saved.
You know, they believe correctly.
They put in their trust in Jesus Christ.
You know, they just don't realize what they're in.
Yeah.
You know?

(01:08:17):
And so I have been studying different denominations for a long time.
I just never got to experience them.
You know, Assemblies of God is really, you know, in the course, non-denominational Pentecostal
churches is the only church background I've had.
So I told you I was working towards getting my credentials, right?

(01:08:40):
And anytime I was in a church, if there was doctrine that I knew me and the pastor disagreed
on, I would go to him privately and I would tell him, look, man, this point and this point
and this point, I just don't agree on it.
And we would try to talk it out.
You would try to convince me never, you know, on the things that I stood firm on, I just,

(01:09:04):
I couldn't see the scripture background for it, you know, the backup for it.
And so I was always honest with them and I told them, you know, you're going to teach
those aspects of the church and I'll teach the things we agree on, you know?
And that's just how it is.
I'm not going to go into someone's house and teach against their core doctrines.
If I disagree that much with it, then just don't go to that church, you know?

(01:09:27):
But if there's secondary issues, that should not interrupt fellowship.
And I'm sorry, but the majority of these are secondary issues, okay?
I've got a good friend, you know, he believes once saved, always saved.
I don't.
It doesn't stop us from doing ministry together.

(01:09:47):
No.
You know, it's a secondary issue.
Right.
And so as long as it's not a core doctrine, primary doctrine that we disagree on, I have
no problem sitting under a pastor that has a lot of different views than me.
Have you read John Wesley's The Catholic Spirit?
I have not.
I recommend it.
Okay.
I am going through his standard sermons.

(01:10:07):
You're basically preaching that sermon.
That's funny.
That is hilarious.
And so one thing that bothered me, because here's the thing.
What a church declared, denomination, what a denomination declares as their fundamental
truths, that's up to them to decide.
And so if they've laid these things out as this is our core doctrine, something that

(01:10:31):
didn't sit right with me is if I didn't agree with each and every one of those, why am I
going to be credentialed to them?
Why am I going to be ordained through a denomination that I don't agree with every single point?
You know, some of them secondary issues.
Absolutely.
But it's still their core doctrine.
It's their backbone.

(01:10:52):
Right.
And so I always had that struggle.
And of course I was told, you know, these aren't really that big of a deal.
Just when you're getting ordained, just be honest about it.
Just tell them straight up, this is why you believe the way you do.
And it's going to be okay.
And yeah, it would have been, I probably would have still been ordained and still been able
to preach and they would have respected my beliefs.

(01:11:14):
But to me, it didn't sit right.
This is their backbone.
It's y'all's core doctrines.
And I didn't agree with them.
And so I've stepped down from serving in huge capacity in this church.
My wife was the secretary of the church.
She steps down, you know, cause she's going to start teaching again.

(01:11:35):
And so I said, you know what, babe, we are completely unplugged.
We're not tied to any ministry right now.
I was like, if there was ever a time to look around, this is it.
Cause she's been in a Pentecostal church her entire life.
She was at the last church we were out for the last 18 years.
Wow.
I mean, that's all she's ever known.

(01:11:56):
And so of course me, it was my wanting to study the denominations that was driving me
to it.
You know, and that's what I told, that's what I told my pastor.
I said, look, I'm, I'm leaving because I want to make sure I want to know without a
data over shout that I'm supposed to be here.
And I left thinking I was going to come back after I was done with this search.

(01:12:17):
And that's what I told her.
I said, dude, I'm going to end up back here.
I mean, I have not found anything that I agree with more so than this, you know, the theology
and the doctrine.
I just agree with it all.
There's just a couple of points here and there that I don't.
And so I expected to fall back into the assemblies of God.
I really did.
So I start, start studying other denominations and, and the reason I went with denominations

(01:12:42):
is, and this is just my view.
You look at acts, right?
All the leaders of the churches, when there was an issue, they came together and they
had councils and they discussed it.
And as a body of elders, as a body of leaders, they worked out these problems.

(01:13:08):
That's the way the new Testament church worked.
Okay.
Peter, the head of the church, when the topic came for the council to decide on whether
Gentiles should be circumcised or not, if anybody had the right to stand up and say,

(01:13:28):
this is the way it's going to be, it was him.
But what does he do?
He submits to the decision of the council of elders.
That's huge.
He was the leader.
If anyone could, and of course he did stand up and he gave his testimony.
It says they debated intensely.
Yes.
But he submitted to what the body of believers was going to come to conclusion.

(01:13:53):
And of course it was the elders, not just the body, but the elders.
And so that's why I think denominations are really important.
Not to talk against anybody doing anything different, but in my heart, I think I should
be under accountability.
I think I should have to answer to people that have been doing this a lot longer than

(01:14:17):
me and to keep me in check.
And I can say that having a band of brothers that are in the same occupation that I can
rely upon for all kinds of advice, bounce things off of them.

(01:14:37):
We all think alike.
That's it.
And it's huge.
It is.
And I've been isolated before starting my own church and the number one thing I missed
was my brother's ministry.
Yes.
Absolutely.
And there's a strength to that that you cannot put a price tag on.

(01:14:57):
You can't.
So.
Yeah, you can't.
And then I mean the story of Peter and Paul, Paul the same way.
He was given the revelation that we will judge angels.
How do you come up with that?
He was given revelation that's not taught by man.
Revelation just poured out on him.
He wrote the most of the New Testament.

(01:15:17):
But what did he do?
He went to those who had been before him and he said they didn't add anything to me.
But he conferred with them first to make sure that his gospel lined up with their gospel.
When he had issues out in the ministry field, he came back to the council, presented at
the council and let them decide what was supposed to happen.
If anybody had the right to say anything, it was Peter or it was Paul.

(01:15:40):
Yeah.
But they submitted to the council.
Peter says, I can't understand anything that guy writes.
Not a direct quote.
Yeah, yeah.
The Kendall Meek translation.
The guy's out there.
He's he's way too deep for me.
Oh, so let's get to the part about how awesome the Methodist church.
OK, OK, OK.
So I'm kidding.

(01:16:00):
No, you're good.
Not really.
So I'm I started getting, you know, I had Baptist theology books and systematic theology
from the Baptist Church.
I'd already been studying.
I think I need to do one.
Yeah, yeah.
Go ahead.
Go ahead.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
That's good.

(01:16:20):
Had they shut off?
This one had.
Oh, man.
Right, right.
The recording has stopped automatically.
The card is full.
OK.
Now that's recorded.

(01:16:41):
OK.
If I just tap the picture up there.
Right, right.
So I'm studying the Baptist theology, going to the different a couple of different Baptist
Church, Southern Baptist churches.
And man, it was close.
Yeah, yeah.

(01:17:01):
Go ahead.
Right.
All right.
So me and my wife, we go out on this adventure to study the different denominations while

(01:17:30):
we're going to church, you know, at these different churches.
I mean, I am every night nose deep in their doctrine, learning their core doctrines, learning
their history, learning their beliefs and at the same time watching them hold their
services the way they worship God, at the same time asking pastors anytime I have questions.
Met a lot of great pastors, you know, studied the Lutheran Church, Southern Baptist Church.

(01:17:59):
You know, we were just going, going and going.
And so the last one I had to check out before I headed back to the Assemblies of God was
the Methodists.
You've never been to a Methodist church in your life.
Never, never.
I had, I had seen services from, from other denominations before, even before this, but

(01:18:19):
the Methodist is the one I'd never, I had no idea about.
So I get into their 25 articles of religion and I'm reading them and I'm like, there's
nothing here I don't disagree with.
And so I get a 2016 United Methodist book of doctrine and discipline, right.

(01:18:41):
And I start reading that and then I start looking into the history and I start looking
into this and, and I realized that there's been this big split in the United Methodist
Church and I come across this global Methodist.
And so I start listening to a bunch of Methodist pastors online talk about it and man, they

(01:19:03):
just seem so excited about it.
Everything they were saying, I was like, man, this is good.
This is good.
I started looking into John Wesley and his way of teaching.
And of course I've always been on the Armenian side of theology.
Just even before I even knew what that was, always just fell on that.

(01:19:24):
I mean, that's just the way I read the scriptures and it's what makes sense.
And so I start reading all this.
I'm like, man, this is, this is good.
I agree with all of it, you know, never heard the term entire sanctification.
And I was like, what is this?

(01:19:45):
Listen to this pastor talk about it.
And of course what others say about it.
And this is true with any denomination.
Don't ever listen to another denomination.
Talk about another one.
That's a good idea.
Because they're not going to frame it the right way.
They're not.
Yeah.
They're going to straw man it every single time.
Yeah.

(01:20:06):
And so if you want to learn about a denomination, you go to the horse's mouth.
You go to their books, you go to their pastors, you go to their teachings and you read it
from their point of view because somebody else is not going to bring it right.
And you're right.
I've learned that myself.
Like if I'll hear somebody say criticizing the Pope, which people love to do, he's kind
of like a weaving boy for any Protestant church.

(01:20:27):
And I go, did he really say that?
I'll go look at what he actually said.
It's like he didn't say that at all.
Right.
Exactly.
Yes.
And so I hear this message, of course that was the only hiccup.
I was like, I don't understand this yet.
And then I hear this message and what he preached.

(01:20:48):
It made scriptures that I've always struggled with make sense.
And I was just like, man, I agree with all of this.
And so me and my wife come to this church and we loved it.
We loved it.
Of course you were gone.
And that probably helped.

(01:21:11):
No, I was really disappointed.
So was she.
I was like, man, you know, I wish the pastor would have been here.
But the funny thing is, is a lot of churches we visited, the first time we visited, the
pastor was gone for some reason.
And so we had to come back again, you know, just so we can, you know, which is good because
there was some that we needed to stay a little longer than others, you know, just to really
work out all the kicks and ask the questions we need to ask.

(01:21:35):
But we had a very great first impression.
And then prayer is Tuesday.
And I was like, I'm gonna go check it out.
And I absolutely loved it.
And those people, I was like, this is.
I wish we could get the word out a little bit more about how good that prayer meeting
is.
Oh, man, it's prayer meeting for me.

(01:21:56):
Yes, it is good.
You know, it is so I loved it.
I was like, man, these people and like they've been at it for 400 and so and so weeks.
Yes.
People don't know how rare that is.
Yes.
For a church to have a prayer meeting, first of all, right.
It's not that rare for Pentecostal churches to for for Methodist churches.
It's rare.
And then to have done it for that long.
Yes, that consistent.

(01:22:17):
Absolutely.
That's why there's no way this church is going to fail.
Right.
Yeah, I agree.
I agree completely.
And so so I agree with all the doctrine.
I love this is a nomination that's for me.
This global Methodist church.
I'm looking into it.
I'm loving it.
Right.
Love the people here.
But we still hadn't met you.

(01:22:38):
And so I knew that you were going to be back that Wednesday.
I was like, OK, I'm going to go to this Bible study.
I'm going to meet this guy.
And I'm sitting there and I'm hearing you talk about church history.
I'm hearing you talk about and by the way, those things were so off topic.

(01:23:00):
I was just telling you know, I typically just dive right into the text.
I'm going to go ahead and tell them about my trip that I had some of the things.
So yeah, and I'm just sitting there and I'm like, this dude is talking about all the things
I love study.
And I'm like, this is insane.
And then the more you talk, I mean, I hadn't even answered your question yet.

(01:23:22):
And I texted my wife.
I said, I think we just found our new church home because I knew that I needed to sit under
you for a little bit and pick your brain and that desire for the deep things of God.
Yes.
Whenever you find somebody you can share that with.
Yes.
You know, it's just like my brother's in ministry.

(01:23:44):
Yeah.
And some of them don't really care about the deep things of God, but some of them do.
And so when we get together, it is just, there's nothing like it.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
So I'm, and it's just been weird how, again, how many similarities there are in our story.
Just like another one that came out today about, I'm so glad I didn't grow up in church.

(01:24:05):
Yes.
I've said that many times.
Yes.
I just have.
Yeah.
You know, whenever I went to Asbury seminary, I'd never stepped foot in a Methodist church
before.
Yeah.
I was on that campus and I could feel it.
This is home.
Hallelujah.
And I didn't know I was going to be like a United Methodist.

(01:24:26):
I knew that seminary was my home.
I hadn't learned yet that Methodism was my home.
Okay.
Okay.
I thought the seminary was my home because it was a non-denominational seminary.
It's rooted in the Wesleyan tradition.
Right.
It's like 75% United Methodist though, at the time.
And so it just, it always felt like the shoe that fit.

(01:24:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know?
And so I'm glad you found us, man.
I am too.
I am too.
It's been a piece that I've never experienced.
And we're going to have a lot of fun.
Absolutely.
Sharing the word of God with people.
That's it.
And with each other.
Yeah.

(01:25:09):
That's it.
That's it.
Man, thank you Troy for telling your story.
Absolutely.
Thank you for having me.
We've got, we'll have many more conversations on here, I'm sure.
And it's just a great thing to be a part of a good family.
Yeah.
Amen.
It is.
It is.
Thanks for sharing your story.
Thanks, man.
All right.