Thriving Despite Trauma with Sarai Nammur

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
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dent ten, you're giving back ona global scale. Hello all, my

(00:21):
entrepreneurs and business leaders, and welcometo the Michael Esposito Show, where I
interview titans of industry in order toinform, educate, and inspire you to
be great. My guest today isa psychotherapist specializing in trauma therapy and personal
development. She believes there is somuch possibility and potential within us, and

(00:43):
that's why she started coaching programs anda community of fearless leaders. Her mission
is to create an environment that focuseson and honors your unique strengths and abilities
by highlighting, accentuating, and growingthese to help you move beyond mere survival

(01:04):
and instead give you the skills neededto help you thrive, overcoming fear to
thrive. Founder and CEO of TrinityCommunity Mental Health Center. Please welcome Saie
no More. Thank you, thankyou for having me. I'm so excited

(01:26):
to be here. I'm excited tohave you on too, And I just
want to make sure I always liketo do a little check in on the
name that I get it right,Sadi, Yes, you got it on.
I love that we had. Wehad a nice little conversation before we
got started on the podcast, beforewe started recording the podcast about where you're

(01:46):
from and where you grew up firstof all, not grew up but was
born. But where you're from froma nationality standpoint in terms of your name,
I'd love for you to maybe sharea little bit about that with our
audience. Well, my mother isCuban, She's from Cuba, and my
dad is from Ecuador. And Iwas born in Brooklyn. And I was

(02:08):
just telling you that although I wasborn in Brooklyn, I've never really been
to New York because I grew uphere. I've been in Miami, which
is really Higalia, a section ofDake County, wed US. Miami is
considered all the bottom of Florida asMiami. So when we say Miami,
we mislead people because Miami isn't everything. But we're you know, we think

(02:31):
that, but we're I'm really fromHighleia, Florida, which is a part
of Day County, which is hencemy accent. You said it was good.
I thought you were from Brooklyn.Yeah, right now. And what
we were talking about too, whichI think relates to some of the work
that you do too, is howhow like all this mix of cultures and

(02:53):
different people like in your family andyour children, and I mean we were
talking about mine in my back ground, and just how it's just you know,
you put somebody somewhere and boom,immediately like they take on that nationality.
And definitely, I'm relating that tomental health a little bit, and
we're going to get into that deeperin the sense of like that we can

(03:14):
adapt to our environments and we cancreate an environment around us, whether it's
an environment that doesn't support us,which obviously we want to get out of,
or an environment that supports us.And that's what you do with your
groups and all of your programs.Yes, definitely, and people you know,
I think I've also lived in Kansasand in California, that's where I

(03:37):
went to school. And I believethat people like us that live in like
a metropolitan type of area like NewYork, like me I'm here in Miami,
we're more able to adapt because wesee so many different cultures, and
we're so used to that as opposedto someone who lives in an area where
it's the same type of person.So I think for us it's easier.

(04:00):
Plus, I multi cultural. Eventhough I am Hispanic, my mother and
my father are very different because Ecuadorianculture is very different from Cuban culture.
So even within the Hispanic community,I also experienced that, and we see
that a lot here in Miami.There's so many cultures, so many cultures.
It's interesting that you bring that upabout cultures and diversity. Actually,

(04:24):
I was just doing a public speakingworkshop. We were just talking about that.
I was doing a public speaking workshop, and I forget the name of
my co presenter, if it comesto mind, I know that her company's
name is most Playhouse. But somethingthat she brought up in terms of her
public speaking tip for our audience atthe time was to learn about other cultures
if you want to be a bettercommunicator and a better speaker. And to

(04:46):
your point, like, if you'rein a place where there aren't that many
cultures around you, we'll go outand explore, go out and learn,
go travel, you know, travelthrough the internet. If that's what you
need to do. But however,it is learn about other cultures, because
that's just going to help you onstand things a little bit better from other
standpoints and other point of view.Definitely, like as much as I thought
I disliked living in Kansas for twoyears, it was so hard for me,

(05:11):
I really appreciate the learning I gotout of living in a small university
town where it was I had livedin downtown and I didn't know I lived
in downtown to like a year inbecause it was so it was it was
so small. But you're completely right, and I do agree also that the
not the Internet, but social mediaexposes us to that to different cultures and

(05:32):
different ways of thinking. I definitelydon't have that idea in my mind.
Of a lot of people ask meis is do I think social media is
bad? Absolutely not. It hasopened so many doors and I'm not even
against Yes, with children, youhave to like have certain limits, but
mostly just be the person that sitsnext to them and is able to explain

(05:54):
stuff to them. Because it does. I think it's more good than bad.
I don't know how you feel aboutthat, but I really don't have
the opinion that it's that it's anegative thing or a bad thing. It's
it's more about the meaning that wegive to it in our experience with it.
I love that the meaning that wegive to it. It's I agree

(06:14):
with you. It's you know,everything that's out there, whether it's television
or internet or so many things thatI think sometimes get a bad rap.
It's because of like what is theperson watching, what is the person taking
in? Like, I've learned somuch through social media. I mean,
me doing this podcast right now,me doing the video on this podcast right
now, was all learned through socialmedia. Was learned through going to YouTube

(06:39):
and watching videos. Actually, Iwas just at the ten X Stages conference
and I got to sit in aroom as a judge for for for the
for the Speakoff for the Great Americansspeak Off with somebody that I learned all
of this from Sean Cannell from ThinkMedia. Oh yeah, was one of
the judges, right, He wasone of the judges, And I was

(07:00):
like, I DMed them right away. I was like, I used to
watch all of your videos and that'show I learned all of this. But
that was through social media. Soit's like, what are you consuming?
It's interesting, It's interesting that youbring social media up, because you were
just telling me about your the liveshow that you did for almost a year
and your vision for it, andI would love for you to share that
with our audience. Yeah that,I mean that really started out of I

(07:26):
wasn't expecting to do that, eventhough I had It's almost like the law
of attraction I had. I hada feeling I wanted to do it,
but I never thought it was goingto happen like that, and it just
happened from one week to the other. I was I was going to be
a speaker at Billy Osbrook's Blessed orNo, it was actually my event.
It was my event I do.I also do events they're called Unleasure Greatness.

(07:46):
So I was going to have thespeakers. We were thinking of how
do I present the speakers, andall of a sudden, someone said,
let's do you need to interview eachone of us. So I started interviewing
each one of them. And Unleashyour greatness has everything to do with where
does greatness come from? And Ipersonally believe that there's adversity trauma goes hand

(08:09):
in hand with greatness. It's almostlike we cannot even birth our greatness without
that friction, without that adversity.So that so that's why I created Anisia
Greta. So I started, Iknow, I'm telling you the backstory,
So this is the backstory. AndI started interviewing the speakers that were going
to be on my on my,on my I was gonna stay on my

(08:31):
show, not on my show,on my at my event, and and
it went so amazing that I waslike, I need to interview more people.
There's there's so many people. There'smore people that have experienced childhood trauma,
complex PTSD. I'm a survivor ofcomplex PTSD, so there's more people

(08:52):
that have experienced complex PTSD, andour healers and people that give back and
people with mish. Then the peoplewho have experienced these things and end up
killing their family. But what wesee on the news are the people who
experienced childhood trauma and then they goon a rampage and do horrible things.
But the reality isn't that. Thereality is that there's the majority of the

(09:15):
people that are doing great things ina small scale or at a larger scale,
whether you're that nurse who is helpingsomeone in the with chemo or you're
someone like me doing therapy, oreven a mother who's just trying to be
the best mother possible. That usuallythat desire usually is is birth from a
place of pain. So I wantedto give that. I wanted to give

(09:39):
that information to the population, let'scall it the population of whoever is watching
me. So I started doing that, and I really interview so many amazing
people. I did that for Ithink I did that like a year and
a half, so I probably havelike fifty interviews. And then and then
I bumped into my own personal stuffthat happened to me in January twenty twenty

(10:01):
one, where I stop doing it, but I'm going to pick it up
again now because I think people doneed to hear more good stories. Like
I call it the good news.So what I was sharing with you is
that I was thinking of myself asa news reporter of the good news,
because when do we see good newson the news. What Ever, It's
so true that I have a friendTom Langan, who does a podcast called

(10:28):
something Good for goodness sake, andit's just to share good Oh. I
love that. Yeah, there's Imean, you're one hundred percent right.
I think it's I mean, andyou know this from the mental health space,
not in mental health, but justpsychology space. I mean to say
in that it's the negative attracts moreviewers, and so unfortunately that's why we

(10:50):
have that news cycle, is thatthat's the drama and everything in it,
whereas there's not much drama in doinggood. I guess it's just really all
just happy people, which if wecould spread that, you know, wherever
we can. I love that.I agree, and it creates a warped
reality because the more we keep seeingthis over and over, we start believing

(11:11):
it. I mean, this iswhy we have recessions and all these other
things that happen, is because theysaid in the fear, and then we
believe that it's that's the reality,and that I don't believe that's the reality.
First of all, if I wouldhave thought that was reality, I
wouldn't even be alive. I wouldn'tbe where I'm at. I wouldn't I
wouldn't have overcome everything I've overcome.So I have never ever believed that that's

(11:31):
the reality. And I honestly thatis the thing that has kept me alive,
that has kept me going, thathas kept me reaching for my vision
because I never set my eyes onthe darkness, which I put it back
there. I just put it backthere because that's where the darkness is.
I'm always looking forward, and Iset my eyes on the vision. And
so since I know that's what savedme and that's what I used to save

(11:52):
others, then that's why I'm sofocused on I call it Thrive talk.
My program is called Thrive Life.It's all of thriving. But you know,
nothing in the world really thrives withoutgoing through the pain of growing and
adversity and all of the hard things. I can't think of anything that thrives
without it. You need the friction. Yeah, just and you know,

(12:18):
we talked about social media and thenews and everything, and I mean it's
I just so it's part of whywe're talking about this live that you did
is because I do an Instagram liveevery morning and I literally just spoke about
this this morning, about like whatare you consuming and what are you feeding
your mind? And it's like itgoes back to your groups and your circles
and the people around you, andthat when you surround yourself with positive thinking

(12:39):
people with optimistic thinking, people likeyourself, and that's a community that you've
created and people who support you.Right, Because well, first I means
just down as point of like whenyou surround yourself with all of this now,
it's it's like you can let goof all the pain and everything else
that happened in the past and youcan move forward with it. So the

(13:01):
next point that I just want tomake that you just stated there and I
want to go into your story alittle bit more, is acknowledging things.
So I think I want to makesure that everybody understands that you're you're not
living in a in a different worldthan everybody else, and neither am I.
We acknowledge what's going on, Weacknowledge the reality of situations and things.

(13:24):
It's that we choose to not stayin that place. We choose to
acknowledge it, say Okay, that'swhat's going on. These are the facts.
Great, this is the fact ofmy past and my childhood and all
that other stuff. And then whatreality? What story do I want to
paint today? Where do I wantto choose to go? Yes, you
brought up a couple really great points, and I want to just kind of

(13:48):
also dissect a few things. Becauseyou brought up some things that I've never
heard of, and I would lovefor you to just help us understand.
So one of the things that youbrought up was complex PTSD, and I'd
hope that you can maybe unpack thatfor us a little bit as to what
that is. I will, okay, So could I go back to something

(14:09):
you just said, and then I'mgoing to go to I love this,
by the way, because I'm watchingyou. You're doing the same thing as
me. I take notes when I'mwhen i'm interviewing, and I'm seeing you.
You're the very first podcast guest I'veever had taking notes too, So
I love it. So yes,So this is awesome. This is like
everybody, this is a workshop.You're getting a workshop today. I just
want to go back to something yousaid about acknowledging. You're right, I'm

(14:31):
not living in Cinderella Land where nothingbad, you know. I'm not living
in that where oh you know Iget saved. No, I save myself.
So for me, it is aboutacknowledging. It is about acknowledging,
but it's also about taking back mypower. So how do we take back
our power is by what you justsaid, you acknowledge, but then I

(14:52):
give it the meaning that it's goingto move me forward. So I could
use the meaning of oh, likeall these bad things are happening to me
and become the victim of my life, or I could become the creator of
my life. So how do Ibecome the creator of my life is by
giving empowered meaning to the things thathappen. So things are always going to
happen. People feel that they're victimizedby life because bad things happen. And

(15:18):
the truth is that bad things aregoing to happen because there's always there are
always things happening. You're happening,I'm happening. The guy across the street
is happening. So right now Icould walk out of here, drive up
the street, and because someone elseis also happening, they're also living their
life, and maybe they're on theirphone and they're not looking at the red
at the light, then they're happening. Crashes into me that I'm also happening.

(15:41):
And that's not because God doesn't loveme, or it isn't because I
have bad luck. It's because thingsare going to happen in our life.
They're meant to happen. Then Ichoose to decide what meaning do I give
to that So I could walk outof there going I have such bad luck,
bad things always happen to me.Or I could say this is something,
this is one of the things thatwe're meant to happen in my life,

(16:03):
because bad things will happen in mylife and I'm gonna lose things in
my life. I'm gonna lose peopleall of that, and what am I
gonna do now? So that isI like that you mentioned that because that's
how we take our power back andthat is so important. We get to
choose that. We have so muchchoice in life. So I wanted to
say that you want me to goback to CPTSD. Yeah, I'm interested

(16:25):
in that, And what is that? Okay? So CPTSD is complex post
traumatic stress disorder, and that isdifferent from what we normally hear as PTSD.
So PTSD is mostly happens when youhave an occurrence, like for example,
driving up the street, you getcrashed into, you get trapped in
your car, but you survive.But now you have PTSD and for six

(16:48):
months you can't drive a car.You're thinking about it, you're having nightmares,
you're having flashbacks, all of that. Sorry, excuse me. That's
different from complex PTSD. Complex PTSD, the type that I'm saying that I'm
a survivor of is trauma that happensfrom the people that are meant to take
care of you, which happens thatcould happen. It could also happen,

(17:10):
for example, in the military.But the one that I'm referring to has
to do with childhood complex PTSD,So that has to do with having a
life a childhood where there's multiple occurrencesof trauma, and those occurrences happen because
of or due to neglect by thepeople who are meant to take care of

(17:32):
us. And the people who aremeant to take care of us are going
to be first and foremost our parents, our grandparents, caretakers, that sort
of thing. But it could alsohappen for example, like say you have
a childhood where one of your parentswas sick of cancer and died, then
you had to move to someone else'shouse and you were molested there. Then

(17:55):
like multiple things happening, and thenyou go outside and you're living in poverty.
Then you go to so it's whereyou're constantly living in a state of
fight or flight because you never knowwhat's going to happen next, So the
PTSD it becomes complex, and incomplex PTSD, as an adult, you
walk around with a lot of shameand guilt, guilt because of what you

(18:18):
did to survive, and shame hasto do more with who you are,
with who you believe yourself to be. Guilt has to do with what I
did as opposed to who I believemyself to be. But for someone who
has multiple occurrences of trauma and theirchildhood, they created I've heard you use
the word identity a lot, Sosomeone with multiple occurrences of childhood trauma,

(18:41):
they create an identity of who theyare that many times feels very shameful,
shameful, dirty, not good enough, depending on what it is that happened.
So for example, for myself,I lived in By the time I
was sixteen, I had already livedin seventeen houses. There was a time

(19:02):
where I lived out of a garbagebag. Basically all my belongings, my
clothing were in a garbage bag.That was, you know, out of
everything I've been through, And thathappened around when I was around fourteen years
old. By the time I wasfourteen, I had already had a lot
of I was already witnessing a lotof domestic violence in my home. Not
necessarily the typical type that you wouldthink of, like the father hitting the

(19:25):
mother. It wasn't like that.It was more domestic violence as far as
both of my parents were very,very angry, aggressive that sort of thing.
And then my brother ended up turningon me. So he was the
one that was mostly a behavioral issue, and so he got a lot of
the hitting and then he ended upturning on me. So then from the

(19:48):
time we came back home around fifteento the time I left to California,
I had to deal with him beatingme up. And that's one of the
reasons why I had to leave Miami, was because I knew something terrible is
going to happen, so I hadI literally had to leave because it got
to the point where I was gonnaend up like one of those movies where
I have to defend myself and it'sa life and death situation. So it

(20:11):
was it was it was that.So I'm I'm a survivor of all of
that, and I just kept believingthat they're this. I mean, I
remember being nine years old and believingthat there's no way this could be real.
There's no way that this could beright. So I must have been
abducted by aliens, and now theseare aliens. That's why my nine year

(20:33):
old mind made up my family aren'tthey're aliens or I'm an alien. I've
been abducted And it's the only thingthat makes sense to me, because it
never made sense to me that thatcould be a normal family, a way
of treating family. So my brainmade that up because I would not accept
that that was real, which ismy heart headedness. My heart headedness is

(20:53):
this there has life is amazing,life has to be great, and so
I never so I literally thought thatfor a minute. I believe that,
I actually believe that for a goodbit. I believe that was my truth
because I was rejecting that this couldactually be my family and that this could
really be the way we treat eachother. First of all, thank you

(21:18):
for sharing that with us. Iknow that you lead many circles and many
groups, and this is probably notthe first time that you've shared this story,
but I want to thank you forsharing that with me and with our
audience today. And I know thatreliving memories, whether you've shared it a
hundred times or for the first time, it's always brings up emotion, and

(21:44):
so I want to thank you andappreciate you for sharing that story with us.
I do want to acknowledge it.Go ahead, well, I was
going to say, you know,for me, it's very important to tell
your story, which is why Idid thrive talk and that's why I have
people telling their story and even rightnow me telling you that, for example,

(22:06):
me telling you the alien story,I easily say it, but there
is still a residual part of methat feels the shame of how could you
be so dumb to think you're analien? You know? So there is
that part. We all have partsof us, especially there's parts of us
that get created to survive. SoI created a part of me that believed

(22:29):
that to survive that situation. Butthere's still that residual part of me because
I can't. I mean, Idon't have the men in black little thing
to make my memories race, sothat personal there. So I want to
tell you that it's important because Ifind it so important to tell our story
and because I want people out thereto feel less crazy, because when we're
going through all this stuff, andwhen we experience complex PTSD, many people

(22:51):
literally feel like they're losing their mind. They feel you just can't make sense
of the things that happen. Andthere's people that have even gone through worse
than I have, and it's sohard to make sense of it that you
secretly feel crazy even though you actnormal in the world. So I tell
my story and I share these mycrazy thoughts so that people could feel less
crazy. It's very important for meto for everyone to understand that these are

(23:14):
all just symptoms and byproducts of trauma. But it's it's but we shouldn't,
I can't. I have to showhow we could live past the shame and
share stories. That makes sense.It certainly makes sense. There's there's a
lot of things that I made notesof in this, and so we're probably
gonna dig a little bit deeper.But I'm interested from a clinical standpoint analyzing

(23:41):
this if you can, from afrom a third party point of view of
when we're making up those stories inorder to live in that reality. So,
as a nine year old girl andyou're you're imagining that you were an
alien or was at abducted. Froma clinical standpoint, what's going on,
what are why are we doing that? So that is I think, look

(24:03):
like if I if I was ableto detach and look at myself clinically as
as the nine year old thinking that, I think that was my way of
coping. And it was almost aform of dissociation because I had to dissociate
from the reality of the bad treatmentand the it was like harsh, cruel,

(24:26):
harsh and cruel treatment. So theonly way that I could make sense
of it was a little bit ofdissociation, which later on turned into major
avoidance in my life. You knowwhat I mean, major avoidance and it
fake its you make it. Sothat's what I would I would say,
it's it's, it's it's I wouldthink it's something like that. It's a
coping mechanism. It's not necessarily SoI'm trained to know that that's not a

(24:51):
bad thing because I'm trauma informed andI'm a trauma therapist. So as a
trauma therapist, I understand that.For example, if I have a client,
I don't ask what's wrong with you? I ask what happened to you?
Because usually when you hear a person'sstory, then everything they're doing makes
sense Because I understand that all thethings that we think that is dysfunctional,

(25:12):
you know, dysfunctional thinking, dysfunctionalfeelings, or dysfunctional behaviors are really just
ways to survive. So perhaps ifI wouldn't have created that story in my
mind, what would have happened tome? What if at nine I would
have had to accept or believe becauseit's not it wasn't Really I can't say
accept because my parents did love me, they just were very immature and were

(25:34):
dealing with their own stuff. Sowhat if I would have believed at that
time my parents don't love me.My father told me that I'm a pig
and I deserve to die, becausethat's what I would hear. We deserve
to die. Whey are we alive? We should be dead? And I
was hearing that at seven eight nine, So what if I would have What
if I would have believed that thatwas true and I would have done something

(25:55):
to myself? So if you lookat it from that standpoint, then you
would realize that me thinking I'm analien was something that was created from my
from somewhere inside of me, soI to help me survive, You see
what I'm saying. Yeah, Soa lot of things we do is really
to help us, even addictions.Addictions are formed as a way to survive

(26:17):
a lot of a lot of behaviors. I can sit here and tell you
so many different behaviors that are thatcome from a place of having our needs
met and and to help us survive. And and I'm also interested in then
so you have this coping mechanism tosurvive, but yet you still have this

(26:38):
positive, optimistic mindset of like lifeis amazing and there's got to be more
and this this like you just said, of I'm not going to believe this
story that's being told to me.And as a very young child, you
know, you're not given all thetools to be able that we have today.
That you and I have today iswhat I mean, not not today

(26:59):
in terms of a timeline, butthat you and I have today, the
tools that we've been you know,through UH school, through courses, through
coaching and everything. We don't havethat as a seven year old, right
or you didn't have that. Sowhere did you find this optimism in this
time? To be really honest,I found it watching TV. I just

(27:21):
I would I think I did alot of dissociation in different ways. So
major form of dissociation for me,or disconnect, because it wasn't fully dissociation
was more like a disconnect was watchingTV shows like the Facts of Life.
I mean, I'm fifty three,so I'm talking about old. I'm talking
about like really old, the Factsof Life, like these just these shows,

(27:45):
the one of the family with thesquares, like the Brady But so
I would watch these shows and thenmy mind I would say, like,
Okay, that's how it's supposed tobe. Okay, maybe they should have
abducted me, Like that's what it'sso I created a vision based off these
TV shows. Maybe that's why Idon't believe social media is bad too.

(28:06):
By the way, I was justthinking that I wanted to I was going
to circle back to that. Yeah, go ahead, No, that's it.
That's what I was gonna say that. I think it saved to me.
It saved to me if I didn'thave that those lifelines. Yeah,
I think that that's why it's likeso important to put out positive messages on

(28:29):
social media and put out you know, like your your video, your your
talk show, the Thrive talk show, and you know, I'll give myself
some credit here in terms of likewhat I'm doing every morning where I come
on to try to inspire people.It's that's why it's so important to people
like yourself and me and all thedifferent people that were surrounded with to put
out positive messages because you never knowwho's consuming it, and you never know

(28:52):
where they are in their life toconsume it. And I and I and
I love that you circled back towhat you said about social media not thinking
all of it, because it reallyis about like what are you consuming?
Like you were watching the Facts ofLife. You were watching The Brady Bunch,
which were wholesome, loving families andfriends, and the facts of Life
a millge of different people from differentplaces all coming together on their that one

(29:15):
woman's home, so exactly, soyou're taking you're absorbing this positive message from
there. You could have been watchinga negative show, but that's not what
you watched. You watch a positiveshow. So there is I think some
power in social media and in televisionthat can be used for good. And
then the question, then the tippingpoint would be like what are we more

(29:37):
inclined to consume? Because I wasconsuming that, but my brother was not
consuming that, right, So mybrother went in another direction and I don't
have the answer as to why onegoal is in one direction and the other
goals in another direction. But Iknow he and I we went in very
different directions, and we were alwaysin different directions. He's not even a

(29:59):
lie. He died. He diedtwo years ago, and he's younger than
I am, And for a longtime he was a source of pain for
me because of what he was doingto me, but also because I always
had survivor's guilt, because I alwaysfelt like I felt guilt because why was
I surviving? Why was I notbecoming what he was becoming, and why
couldn't I save him? So maybea lot of your listeners could identify with

(30:26):
survivor's guilt, because there's in afamily of five, everyone will go in
different directions, and you're like,but why they all the same thing happened
to all of them, Which isnot true either. The same thing didn't
happen to all of us, andwe don't all have the same parents.
Because the way I was treated bymy father wasn't the way he was treated
by my father. He was treatedvery badly, and even though I observed

(30:48):
it, I wasn't treated that way. Other than the verbal things that my
dad was saying. But I wasnot hit by my father. He was.
So everyone has different experiences, andI want to let a lot of
people off the hook because a lotof times the criticism comes of like,
well why are you like that?Your sister isn't like that, and it's
like, well, she didn't experiencewhat this one experienced. So it's so

(31:12):
important to let people off the hook. So that just to allow a little
bit of compassion to enter the room. We need compassion for healing. One.
I want to say that again,like we need compassion for healing.
I love that, and I wantto go into that too, of like,
we all have a different story.And I just learned this recently.

(31:34):
I took a coaching course and inthe coaching course it was about you know,
understanding obviously your client because you're thecoach, and it was the what
they were sharing with us is thatyou know, when you say, oh,
I understand, I understand, I'vebeen there, I've done that,
I've been there, we understand thatin certain contexts that makes sense. But

(31:56):
in the context that we're speaking isthat every experience is different. And if
if I was, which I wasn't, if I was abused as a child
and you were abused as a child, and I were to say to you,
oh, I understand, I don'tbecause our abuse was completely different.
And even if we grew up inthe same home and experience it as you
just said, Even even if youhave even if you had another sibling who

(32:17):
was also an observer, you bothobserved two different stories, yes exactly,
or three different So instead of sayingI understand, a better thing to say
is I get you, so Ibecause you're right, we don't understand.
And even when you say you understand, I would say what do you understand?
Right? Like if I was I'llsay, what do you mean you
understand? What part of what partof what I'm saying? Do you actually

(32:40):
understand? So I could be like, I get you, I get with
what you're saying that you said thisand this and this. It's better to
know that they were heard than forthem to know that you understand. Because
your client will always protect you.Look, clients like people like us who
have been who have experienced very horriblethings. Let's say we and those of

(33:02):
us that end up being empathetic,we sense you. So that's what a
lot of therapists have to understand thistoo, that I'm gonna I'm gonna notice
how you feel about my story.So I'm going to protect you by not
saying everything. If you start cringingor if you start looking sad for me,
then I'm just not going to tellyou the rest because I don't want

(33:22):
to give you that pain. Soit's so important to to take care to
watch that so that then I don'tfeel responsible for taking care of your emotions.
So anyway, that's why it's betterto say, like, I get
you based off this that you said, instead of I understand. Does that
make sense? It certainly does,And in fact, I'm gonna I'm gonna

(33:43):
give us a little levity here inthat that was certainly your Miami accent coming
out, not accent, but justI get you. I get you.
What they taught us in the coachingprogram was I hear what you're saying to
acknowledge. You know, I don'tlike I hear what you're saying because it
sounds okay. So the reason whyI don't like I hear it is because

(34:05):
it doesn't sound like you're a witness. So if you say I get you,
then I'm witnessing or but you haveto follow up. I get you
with why you get me. Alsolike I get you because if you're saying
that this and this happened, Iget why you would feel the way you
feel because now I'm witnessing for youthrough your story. I'm witnessing. I'm
a witness for you as opposed toI hear you. I rather you see

(34:27):
with me. You see what I'msaying. I'd rather you be in the
room with me and feel for meand feel. So it's more like it's
more than one part. Yeah,it's acknowledging. And also that's the difference
between observing and witnessing. You seewitnessing as I'm with you. Oh I
like that. Yeah, observing you'rejust like on the outside across the street.

(34:50):
Witnessing is I'm right here, I'min it right right. I feel
for you, I feel I'm feelingit. I'm experiencing it with you because
the way you told your story,I ex I could experience what you experienced.
Yeah, so different, It isvery different. I also want to
go back to forgiveness or go intoforgiveness in order to move on, in

(35:13):
order you know, to move onfrom what you experience for for what anybody's
experiencing. Forgiveness has to play arole, and I'm interested in how you
either went about that or how yougo about it today. Right, So
forgiveness, that's a big one.So forgiveness that is it's it is really
hard. It's it is. Thatpart was really hard. And like I

(35:35):
said, I'm fifty three, andI think I entered the realm, not
even just the realm of forgiveness aroundforty three, an an observer of forgiveness.
Yeah, I was like I'm saying, I was like, I don't
really get this, but I'm justgonna I'm just gonna watch it for a
second. And that's but I reallywas nowhere near near because the childhood trauma

(35:59):
never ended. So I separated myselffrom it, but it never ended with
my my brother, my mother,my brother, and my father. My
brother went on to be a drugaddict and caused more problems and and have
it just it just evolved into abigger monster. So I was outside watching
it because I removed myself from thatsituation. So it was hard for me

(36:21):
to find forgiveness when I'm still seeingthe same things play out. And my
brother continued to be abusive with me, except for in a different way because
I had removed myself. He reallynever stopped or just moments of peace followed
by more craziness. So it wasso hard for me to forgive. But
I'll tell you where I found forgiveness. Even though when I when I say
that, I was always still verymuch I was still very much helping my

(36:45):
family because one of the products ofall my trauma was that I became severely
codependent. And you know what codypendancyis. Explain it. So, codypendancy
is, I'm made myself responsible forfor their well being. I would not
take care of myself just to makesure they were okay. Those are just

(37:08):
symptoms like people pleasing, saying yeswhen you mean no, like these are
all symptoms of codependency. So Ibecame extremely, extremely codependent. I developed
this humongous fear of being alone andbeing left alone and being abandoned because I
was always abandoned. So this isthese are the struggles I had as an
adult. But in my in myearly forties, I you know, I

(37:31):
owned my community mental center, Iemployed my dad, my I employed my
brother at one point, you know, And so these are my codependant parts.
But my dad, I ended upgiving him the book, uh,
the Secret. I gave him theSecret, and he read that book and
he he transformed. He he's sohe gave me. He gave me.

(37:55):
The biggest lesson that he gave mewas his transformation. So that just confirms
for me, people could change.It's just a matter of information and decision.
So I gave him the Law ofAttraction, the Secret. He read
it, he wouldn't put it down. He would walk around with that book

(38:15):
for like a whole year. Hewalked around with that book everywhere he went.
He would text me all the time, thank you so much for giving
me this book. My life hascompletely changed. I love you. He
completely changed. He completely completely changed. And then from there he graduated to
the Bible and then he made furthertransformations. So my dad is a very
different man right now. And hegave me that gift of showing me that

(38:39):
a lot of people don't get that. A lot of people have abusive parents
or chaotic parenting and that sort ofthing and they never see they always yearn
for that. So I did getthat from my dad, not necessarily from
my mom, because she kept onwith her toxic relationship with my brother.
But I did get it from him, so I was able to start forgiving.

(39:02):
From that point, I was ableto start realizing, like, Okay,
there there is another way, becauseI'm not saying I was just because
I was positive and always seeking thelight doesn't mean that I wasn't that I
didn't have phases of self destruction.It doesn't mean that I wasn't human.
You know, I am also human, and I also had cody pendency,

(39:23):
and I've had rage, and Igrew I grew up with two people that
had extreme rage. So I learnedto display my emotions through anger or you
know, like I learned to beaggressive. And my brother was also like
that. My brother, since theage of fourteen, he was in and
out of jail, and then everytime he'd go in jail and come out,

(39:45):
he'd come back a little angry anda little stronger, and I'd get
all the I would be his target. So that's what happened with him,
and so we grew up in itwas very very aggressive. He was in
gangs. It was hard for meto to forgive my brother, but right
before he died, we actually hada really good I would say six months,

(40:07):
and we were for some odd reason, we were able to talk about
childhood experiences. Actually, the Thursdaybefore he died, we were able to
talk about the time period that wewere homeless. And so I just thank
God for that conversation too, becauseI always wanted what I always wanted was

(40:27):
to have that connection with him andto save him. But he was just
always so angry because I was.I wasn't. He would always tell me,
We'll see it was always a competitionwith me, like we'll see who
dies with the most toys. Andit was mostly because I was. I
was always ducking and not trying toget in trouble, while he was so
aggressive that he was always in trouble. So he would almost attract all this

(40:50):
negativity to him. But then hepunished me for it. You know what
I mean. Does that make sense? Well, yeah, it sounds like
there was I mean, for lackof a better way of explaining it,
some jealousy of watching you thrive andseeing where he is. And so this
comparison and we'll see who dies withmost toys is that's the only thing he
has to hang on to. Idon't want to always like that I do

(41:10):
want to pay some respect to him. What was his name, Robert,
Robert Roberto Coto. Yes, AndI want your listeners to know too,
because as I speak and tell mystory, I like to educate, and
that's how I let people off thehook, you know. That's what I
call letting people off the hook.I want people to know that when you're
living in a home with severe dysfunction, or chaotic parents, or immature parents,

(41:37):
this sort of thing, it createsa lot of sibling rivalry, and
that is one of the byproducts ofthese type of homes. And then it's
not it's not so much that thesiblings hate each other or are like each
other. It's that the environment causedthis. The environment caused the sibling rivy,

(41:58):
and it's very difficult. I'm sohappy you kind of you shared that
too and shine a light on thatin that so often I feel there's a
couple of things that you said thatI want to just make sure we we
touch on here, is that sooften we see these kids and are competing
with each other or whatever, andlike you just said, a lot of
that comes out of what's happening inthe home. Some of it's good,

(42:19):
right, so so some of it, it's like you got a wholesome,
wonderful home, but you're really bigon athletics, and you're you're really you
know, you're you're only highlighting withwhat the accomplishments of one kid. So
of course there's going to be thesilviling sibling rivalry because they're going to compete
or one kid's gonna shut down.So we see that so often. Uh,
and and then and then the otherthing that that you said that I

(42:42):
also want us to acknowledge for especiallyfor children, since we're talking about childhood
trauma. Here is you said,I and I highlight this word learned to
be angry and learned to display myemotions that way, and that that was
a trigger, not trigger. Butlike I that I wanted to hang on
that when you said it earlier,because I was like, you chose the

(43:04):
word learned in other things that you'vetalked about in healing and in forgiveness and
all this other stuff, the wordlearned wasn't really there. It's like it's
innate in us to be grateful andto be forgiving, and to be loving
and caring and to have coping mechanismsthat make a stinker abducted by aliens,
which I love, by the way. But we learned to be angry,

(43:27):
and we learned to be to displaythat, and I would love for you
to maybe share a little bit moreabout using that word and why you chose
that word. Yeah, that's great. Thank you for pointing that out,
because it's important to understand where thatcomes from. So I learned to be
violent, aggressive, and angry becausethat's how I learned to protect myself.

(43:49):
So I had to fight my brother, who was a dangerous person. At
fourteen. He went to uh,he didn't even go to juvenile hall.
He went to an actual prison forkids for at that point, cracking someone's
head. So this is the guyI lived with. This was him at
fourteen. And then imagine this fourteenyear old going in and out of jail

(44:15):
and kid prison and him coming backhome every six months. Then maybe he'll
be taken back in for something elsehe did, and coming back and him
getting a little bit bigger and alittle bit more angry. And then here
I am getting his beatings. Hecracked my ribs, he threw me against
the wall, like he did somany things to me, and they were

(44:36):
all he would intimidate me, intimidatemy mom. So the only way that
I could I so how do welearn? We get conditioned. So I
maybe one day I stood up tohim and he didn't hit me that day,
and he laughed and said he mockedme, but I would take mocking
over getting slapped in the face.So in that moment, I learned,

(44:58):
Okay, I need to I needto get angry with him. Then maybe
the next time he came at me, and maybe I picked up a scissors,
anything around me and that made himrun, which was actually the last
thing that happened. The last thingthat happened was that he threw me against
the wall. I got knocked outfor a couple seconds. When I got

(45:20):
back up, I ran and grabbedtwo knives, and he saw me and
he ran into the street and heran out. But before I did that,
I called the police, and Icalled the police on myself, and
I said, come get me becauseI'm going to kill my brother. And
I ran out and I saw himup the street laughing while I was crying
hysterically. I came back in thehouse and I knew the police was coming,

(45:42):
and I thought, now I'm goingto be in so much trouble for
all this, But at that pointI didn't know what else to do because
no one was protecting me. Ihad no protection in my house from no
so at that point I had justhad enough. I couldn't do anything else.
And as I was walking back,would I find my mom crying at
the front of the house, saying, please, don't do anything to him,

(46:04):
Please don't tell the police, please, please please, he's gonna go
back to jail. So instead ofher thinking about poor me, she was
thinking poor him. So right thatright there was another slap in my face,
which I had already been used tothat so much. And when the
police came, what happened was thatthey realized I think somehow they must have
realized what happened because I had Iwas laying down with a bag of ice
in my head because he had literallybent me over and slammed me against the

(46:27):
wall, against the corner, andso that's I ended up getting hit right
here. And so at that pointI was I thought, that's the life
and death point that I was tellingabout, where I thought, if I
don't get out of here, somethinghorrible's gonna happen. So I ended up
leaving. I left California and Kansas, but I had to. My learning
escalated every time because I didn't knowwhat else to do there was I had

(46:52):
nothing else, I had no othertools to defend myself. And even his
friends, his friends wouldn't would neverstep been to protect me either because they
were scared of him. Everyone wasscared of him, right, Everyone was
scared of him. His friends.If they saw me, his friends would
say, please go home. Please, don't let anyone come say hi,
do you because your brother's gonna kickmy butt. And they wouldn't say like

(47:14):
that, but that's what they wouldsay, like, don't let anyone come
to everyone in the community, everyonein the community, everyone, and I
lived with him, right, Soit was just really turning. So I
finally told my mom, I'm leaving. I can't live here anymore with you
guys. Yeah, I mean,And it's so important to again, I
want to thank you for sharing yourstory there in that. What I'm saying

(47:37):
in terms of the importance here isto understand about that learned behavior, because
when we go back to childhood trauma, we have teachers and police and different
people in our community interacting with childrenthat were like you and that were like
your brother, And it's I thinkit's so important to under stand this because

(48:01):
then you can either help them orprovide some sort of resource or tools or
guidance for them, or some sortof empathy for them. And where this
kind of comes from, where whereI'm coming from at least, And I
can't share too much because it's it'snot my story. But my wife works

(48:22):
with it. She's she's a specialed teacher in the inner city and she
works with children six graders who livelives that you're talking about. She's,
she's we've we've brought things for themand and they live in shelters, some
of them, not all of them. Some of them live in shelters.
Some of them have experienced a verysimilar life to yours, and like you

(48:45):
said, and some of them muchworse. And I've heard some terrible stories.
But why this is so coming upright now for me is we just
had this conversation, my wife andI about a child in her class that's
abusive verbally with her and with withother students around her. And she comes

(49:09):
home and she is just not herself, and she's speaking in a way that's
not herself, and you know,it's concerning for me, for her for
her own safety, because she didsay that at one point, the TA
in the classroom was worried about hersafety because the kid came charging at her
but stopped. But the conversation thatwe ended up having was understanding. We

(49:35):
we spoke about, you know,where is this kid coming from and what
life is is is he living?And where I'm going with this story is
while we were acknowledging all of that, it was also it was acknowledging it
but also not allowing it to changewho we are. And I think that
that's really important and why I'm speakingto community leaders and teachers and doctors and

(49:59):
police and everybody around is that becausethis child is acting this way, don't
change who you are and don't bringyourself to their level of being violent with
them or physical with them or speakingto them in a way, because it's
so important that we hold a safespace for them because they don't have that

(50:21):
safe space. And that's the conversationthat my wife and I had of like
making sure that you know, it'simportant to her to hold a safe space
in her classroom for not just thatchild, but for all the kids and
you know, there's going to bekids like your brother who we're not going
to be able to help, butit's important that we don't go down that
road. But then what about thekids like you that we can help?

(50:45):
And so when we open our mindsto understanding, then there's like people like
you that flourish and that create groupsof communities of people who are coming together
and becoming stronger. And we didn'teven get into your programs or you're av
that you do, and just like, I mean, like look at you,
right, Like this is what cancome out of an abusive household?

(51:07):
Is someone like you? Right?And I think that maybe the example of
me is more of what actually happensthan the example of my brother. And
I don't have statistics to show this, but I would love to know,
because the truth is, I don'tknow if you know what the aces are.
The It's a research study called AdverseChildhood Experiences Study that shows that only

(51:34):
three to four people out of tensay that they did not experience at least
one childhood study. I mean,so that they didn't experience one adverse childhood
experience. So that leaves about sixaround six people saying that they experienced at
least one, but usually they experienceone, two, or three, So

(51:55):
more people are experiencing It's almost likeat a pandemic level. So trauma,
especially childhood trauma, is at apandemic level, and I want to I
don't know if it's just my focus, but I believe that more people come
out of it somewhat more focused theway that you and I are focused,
as opposed to being the ones outthere causing harm. And a lot of

(52:19):
times there are people who cause harm, but they don't they don't do it
consciously. They just maybe don't knowanother way, or they don't have education
on how to properly communicate, maybethey don't have emotional intelligence. Maybe you
know, other bunch of other otherthings. But I don't believe that the
majority of people are out there doingevil things coming from a place of like

(52:43):
the type of home that I grewup in. I think when given the
opportunity through through education, I thinkinformation could cause a transformation. So it
through through education, through education,which I call it psycho education. Through
psycho education, I think people havean opportunity to do good. And I

(53:06):
don't know if I'm just too optimistic, but that's what I really believe.
I think you believe that too,because you're doing the same thing I think
you're doing, you know, one, one hundred percent. But you know,
I don't think it's too good tobe true, because I mean,
you just said that about your dad, a man who you said was abusive
and would say terrible things, andall of a sudden, when you gave

(53:27):
him the information, when you gavehim the path to get better, he
got better. And I mean,who knows his story, right, Like,
what's his story if he's like that, because yeah, and I know
his story, so now I knowhis stories. I'm like, oh,
one day he told me he startedtelling me some of his story, and
I just looked at him and Isaid, thank you for telling me that.
Now I know why a monster raisedme. And he just he just

(53:51):
opened his eyes and looked him andI'm like, and I said, do
you understand that's that's trauma, right, And this is what happens with trauma.
So his abuse came from a placeof rage and anger. And it
wasn't like he he intended to beverbally abusive, physically abusive and that sort
of thing. It was just hewas in such a rage, right,
and there was so much immaturity andand so much survival, like living just

(54:15):
based off survival that we we wewere hurt by that. But I want
to go back to something you saidabout your wife, what you were explaining
and how you were saying just becausethey're like that doesn't mean that we need
to show up differently. And whatyou're describing there is the choice of living
out of fear or living out oflove. So that is if I,

(54:37):
if I, if I intentionally chooseto approach every situation with love, I'm
going to do good. If Iif I, if I show up out
of fear, then I'm going toget angry. I'm going to take things
personal. I'm going to react toyou. And this is just something that
I've learned along the way to changemy behaviors, to change my approach to

(54:59):
things, and I've changed a lot. I'm not we see right now is
not the person who was here tenyears ago, years ago, you know,
but it's it's it's it's just reallybelieving that we could grow, that
we could learn, and that wecould improve and get better, and that
you know, this is why Icreated the program Thrive Life. That's what
the whole goal is to reach thethrive life where we thrive in all these

(55:20):
different places and in all these differentareas. And that distinction of being intentional
to be to show up with loveinstead of fear, because I struggled with
fear for so long, and fearmade me do terrible things to people,
to myself. Fear made me,you know, fear went from being my
protector to basically be my destructor lateron as an adult, because fear protected

(55:45):
me, Fear told me go inthe room and hide. Fear. Fear
did all those things for me,and then later it wasn't doing things for
me right. And and you know, I want to just say something to
it because I want to hear moreabout your program. I just heard this
quote this morning, and it's notthe first time I've heard it, but
I heard it this morning. It'sBuddhas quote, which is, you know,

(56:07):
anger is a gift. It's agift that you can choose to accept
and receive. But so is love. Love is also a gift, and
you can choose to accept and receiveit as well. And at the end
of it, the choice is yours. And I was listening to a Call
It a podcast for now, it'sjust making it easier. A session it

(56:29):
really was, and we went onto talk about I believe it was Victor
Frankel who was the Holocaust victim,and talking about our mind and that our
mind is the last place of freedom, is that nobody can take that freedom
away from you, and that youcan make choices in your mind. Is
anything the circumstances around you you mightnot be able to control, but what's

(56:51):
happening in your mind you can control. And if you want to control it
and being a flying saucer, thenI say go for it, because if
that's what you need to get toto where you are today, to be
the beautiful, powerful, strong womanthat you are today, then shoot put
three eyes on me and call mean alien right. I'll take it any

(57:12):
day. But Victor Franco is agreat example of a person who decided what
he took his power back. He'sthe greatest example, one of the greatest
examples of taking your power back throughthe meaning that you give to things like
he completely would be in the middleof horror, horror, and he hit
What kept him alive was what theidea of what he was going to do

(57:35):
when he got out just the visionthat he had and the meaning that he
was giving to everything. And that'sthat's literally like if anyone could take just
that little piece, we could chooseat any moment the meaning that we're going
to give to our experiences, andfrom there, that's just a path.
So I was on your Facebook pagestalking you, which, by the way,

(57:59):
I go I love that. Yeah, I noticed. I was like,
oh, I got a new follower. I just want to circle back
to on how positive social media canbe in that your Facebook page is literally
like just all positive messages, quotes, stories like you write stories like I

(58:21):
have your whole story here about thewhat you just talked about fear and overcoming
fear, and it's it's on yourFacebook page, like you write it all
out. It's beautiful and you havethese great videos and everything. And the
one that I just watched was whenyou were inviting people to come to your
course or excuse me, to yourprogram, which you put out on January
thirty first, of the Thrive program. So I would I would love for

(58:43):
you to share with our audience whatthe program is all about and if you're
going to be doing another one thatthey can jump in on. So the
program is ongoing, people could jumpin whatever. Okay, it's the I'm
going to say. You know,it's funny because I feel like it's the
most it's the most impactful way towork with me. It's also the least

(59:04):
expensive way to work with so Iwant to I don't know how it worked
out that way, but I enjoyit so much. So basically, I
created a program based off everything thatI have learned that has either has saved
my life and has helped others.So it really is like a marriage between
trauma therapy and personal development. BecauseI always say, like getting a master's

(59:28):
degree in psychology and learning psychology savedmy life, but personal personal developments,
it transformed my life. It's whatgot me to start my business. It's
what got me to go through allthese these everything I've been through as far
as transformation, because we could change, but transformation is so much harder.
Transformation is being intentional. Shedding.The shedding process is so hard. Shedding

(59:52):
means shedding relationships, shedding habits,shedding habits that we have, shedding our
beliefs, system, just shedding andshedding. I've been doing shedding for so
long. This is why I'm likea whole. Like I think of the
of the little girl that I wasgrowing up, then I think of the
fifteen year old in my twenties,my whole twenties. I was faking it

(01:00:15):
till I made it. I wasmarried, I was going to school in
California, in Kansas, and backhere in Miami. I was having my
kids. I looked perfect. Imade sure I look perfect. My mom
was a model, so she madesure that I knew that I always needed
to look perfect and all of that. But I was having panic attacks all
the time. I was living ina state of dread. It was so

(01:00:37):
what I was displaying wasn't true.So I had to shed all of that
because in order in order for usto become who we need to become,
to create this life that I callthe thrive life, we have to literally
become someone new. So when Ithink of that, the other versions of
me, it's almost like those arejust really good friends of mine that I

(01:00:58):
that I know very well, butI don't experience anymore who they were.
I can't experience that. I couldremember it like if it was a story
or like if it was a friendof mine. And maybe that's part of
my whole association that I was tellingyou, I'm not sure, but I'm
so detached from it. I'm solike, I'm in this moment, and
I'm really a lot about living inthe moment. But my whole program has

(01:01:19):
to do with that, It hasto do with it's almost like a trauma
informed personal development program, and ithelps people. It's really about changing the
way you think, feel, andact so that you could become a new
personality, so you could have adifferent way of showing up in the world,
and that way you could be veryintentional in creating the life that you
want. So I'm extremely intentional.I'm extremely intentional and everything I do in

(01:01:46):
really everything, and it's like it'sjust little by little having more and more
self mastery and being more conscious,like living it out of a more conscious
state. So much of what yousay it resonates with me too, because
I say that all the time.I actually call it old Michael. I
always say to people, I'm like, old Michael would have Old Michael would

(01:02:08):
have And you're so right, LikeI know this today and I think about
it today, and you're right.You know, there the imposter syndrome creeps
in every once in a while.The self doubt creeps in every once in
a while, but then we realized. I love that you use the word
intentional is that I'm intentionally seeking abetter life for Michael. I'm intentionally seeking

(01:02:30):
a better life for the people thatwant to come with me, and it's
just a different life and it's makingchoices that help me. And I think
what's important to get out of thatis that it's not being somebody that you're
not. You know, and youuse the word fake it till you make
it, and that's what leads topanic attacks, right because you're fake.

(01:02:52):
But this is becoming who you areand who you're actually meant to be and
who you have potential to become.So all self development does, and what
you're talking about and shedding and beingintentional does is just help you get closer
to who that person is living insideof you. And so I love that.

(01:03:13):
I would love to hear a littlebit more about some of your technique
strategies, ideas whatever you want tocall them on shedding, because I know
so many people out there are like, okay, great, Like I know
I need to, you know,stop talking to this one negative person or
I know I need to or Iwant to stop drinking alcohol, or I
know I want to or need tolose some weight, whatever it is,

(01:03:35):
right, I'm interested in what's somethingthat worked for you in terms of shedding.
So when you say that, you'rereferring to change versus transformation. So
I'll give you an example. IfI have someone with code dependency, let's
say, and they're in a verytoxic relationship, maybe domestic violence, whatever
else. Right, I am nevergoing to be the therapist that says the

(01:03:59):
goal is for you to break upwith this person. That's not going to
work because you might break You're goingto do the change by breaking up with
that person, But then guess whoyou're going to pick up. You're going
to pick up that same person witha whole other name and a whole other
body, you know. So that'sthat's not really a change. So what
I go for here is transformation.And the only way that I believe we

(01:04:19):
could really transform is by changing ourthoughts, our feelings, and our behaviors.
So the way we think every day, the way that we feel every
day, and the things we doevery day. For example, in any
moment in time, we're showing upwith a particular attitude. Our attitude is
like, right now, I cameto your podcast, right and if I

(01:04:40):
would have been thinking, oh,I'm so nervous, I feel so I
feel so scared. What is goingto ask me? I'm not who am
I to be on this podcast?And I start doing that, I'm going
to show up here all sunken inand my attitude is going to be one
of self of a lack of selfconfidence. I'm going to feel less than
in all of that. But ifI show up with a different attitude where

(01:05:01):
I'm saying, you know, Ideserve to be here. I've done a
lot of work. I'm so excitedto be here, which all morning I
was saying, I'm so excited forthe podcast. I can't wait to do
it. I researched you. Thatwas part of my excitement. And then
I show up here with the ideaof adding value to your I was going
to say to your clients, toyour audience, then that my attitude is

(01:05:23):
completely different. But that's just anattitude, and that's just one moment in
time. What I go for iswhat is your attitude in the string of
all the different points of your life. The person that we are the attitude
that we show up with every singleday, whatever that looks like every single

(01:05:43):
day. If we do it forlong enough time, it becomes our personality.
And our personality is the part thatwe need to transform in order for
us to become a different person.So that's why, like how we were
talking about, like, oh,the person you were so different from who
you are now, you must havegone through a transformation too. A lot
of people don't do that. Alot of people are angry at twenty,

(01:06:05):
angry at thirty, and just ragefulat forty, and they're just the same
worst person. So for us toget better and transform and go towards our
potential, our possibilities, that greatnessthat you're talking about, we literally need
to be so intentional in transforming ourselvesin those three areas. And like I
don't need I'm not even a negative, bad believer of fake it till you

(01:06:28):
make it, because all you haveto do is change one of those three
areas at any point in time,and if you do do that long enough,
you won't sustain that same attitude.So if I had to fake,
for example, in on my twentiesbecause I also am a high school kickout,
I was like, I never finishedschool. I was so by attitude

(01:06:49):
in school was just so aggressive andso bad. I would send me to
opportunity school. Like all of that, All this stuff happened. So when
I went into like college, Iwas still thinking who I was. I
was still feeling what I was feeling, the panic, the fear. But
I pretended to be a student andI did. I acted like everyone.

(01:07:11):
I would look how other people whoact and I would act like them.
And so doing that allowed me totransform the other parts. Except for that
transformation is that happens with time.I wasn't going to transform the last twenty
years in a week just because Idecided to show up different. I had
to actually practice that over and over. And it really wasn't until I entered
my thirties that it all sort ofstarted coming along, like the other parts,

(01:07:35):
the thinking and the feeling. Sofor us to transform, we have
to transform. The transformation happens inthat tryad. I call it the ultimate
destiny triad. So why do Icall it the ultimate destiny triad? Is
because those three things together, ifwe are intentional in those three parts,
we will be the intentional creators ofour life and we will create our ultimate

(01:07:59):
destiny, and it will be uscreating it, us being the writers of
our story, and we're the maincharacter as opposed to things, to being
the victims of our life and justletting things happen to us. So I
choose to not be a victim.I am not a feather. Do you
know what I mean by that?I am not a feather getting blown by
the wind. Like if the windblows hard, I'm gonna fly fast,

(01:08:19):
and if the wind doesn't blow,I just stay there. Today. No,
I am not a feather. Iam the intentional creator of my life.
And so I am intentional on whatI'm thinking today, what I'm feeling
today, and how I'm showing up, which is what I'm doing. And
that's what I teach people in myprogram. Like it takes a while because
it's not as I've been Look,guys, like I'm saying, guys,

(01:08:42):
not I'm talking to everyone now.I'm like, look, guys, let
me tell you. I'm telling youmy I've been a therapist for twenty five
years and it's really only been andI'm not saying I changed in the last
three years. That's not true.I've changed all along little changes, little
changes, little changes, but thereason results of those changes have stacked up
to where I've only seen the transformation. The transformation flourished in the last three

(01:09:05):
years. So it just takes alot, depending on how deep you are
in the pain, in the woundof who you were and in the victim
and all of that. So it'sdifferent for everyone people. And that's the
part where compassion comes in, wherepeople are like they feel less than because

(01:09:26):
oh, I did your program andI wasn't able to do X, Y
and Z, and I'm like,you're so ahead of me. It took
me twenty something years to see whatyou're seeing right now. You know what
I mean. It wasn't overnight.But these are the three areas that I
call them, like the realms ofexperience. We experience life in our mind
with our thoughts. We experience lifewith our emotions, and we experience life

(01:09:47):
with what we do and the waywe interact with life. So we're able
to change any one of those threeparts, everything changes. And I like
how you said that too, aboutthe three parts of experience, because like
when we go back to the storiesand how you know you have an observer,
you have three different observers of somethinghappening. They could be experiencing it

(01:10:08):
three different ways through their mind,through their body, through like what you
just talked about there. Yeah,And that's when you're out of alignment.
That's when you're out of alignment.When you're like, your brain is going
I believe in myself and I wantto go for this, but then your
body is going in another different directionbecause it's feeling fear. So when we're
fitting the fear, but we're like, but I want to do it,

(01:10:30):
but I can't because I'm so scared, then you're out of alignment. The
goal is to get all of thatin alignment so that you can move forward.
I mean, it's happened to us. I mean, you know so
many times you think you want todo something, you get close to the
edge of it, and then you'relike, oh no, not today,
I think I'll do it tomorrow.Oh my goodness, fear it takes over.
But if you have those three thingsin alignment, if you have your
thoughts aligned with what you're feeling,then you could do anything. You just

(01:10:55):
reminded me of a story for me, which was which I hope helps everybody
see this and understand what I'm sayinghere. What you just said on the
edge, you just brought up amemory for me of a childhood memory.
Not traumatic, a good one,but I had to do it fear.
I've been a skier my whole life, and I've always been a really,
really good skier, And I mean, this is the one thing I can

(01:11:17):
pout my chest on, pound mychest on of like I was an incredible
skier at a very young age doingblack diamonds and everything on White Face,
which is an Olympic mountain. SoI was I think I was like eight.
Oh no, no, I musthave been like nine or ten,
because my brother was born and therewas a double diamond and it was it's

(01:11:39):
called the Rumor, and it's atGore Mountain, and the Rumor is a
double diamond because the face of itis actually just like straight down. It's
like a five or six foot drop, and the only way, the only
two ways down that face is oneto just take the face and just go
straight down, and then you justare able to navigate the rest of the
mountain because it's not as steep afterthat, or you can kind of like

(01:12:01):
sidestep down on the edges on theside of the mountain, and I remember
I skied up to it. Ihad my ski tips right over the edge,
and fear sunk in my body.And I mean, I'm a kid,
so like I'm fearless at that age. Like I'm not worried about breaking
bones. I'm just fearless, right, But fear sunk into my body,
and I was like, Nope,I'm not doing this today. And I

(01:12:25):
remember we left the mountain and Iwas just like we were in the car
and we were talking about it,and it was a positive message that came
out of it. My father wastalking about like, you know, he
was just talking about like a realman at the time, you know,
his you know, dad talking tohis boy. He's like a real man
knows when to walk away from something. And you know, I'm proud of
you. You walked away from it, right. He was probably just protecting

(01:12:45):
me, quite honestly. Later ona couple of years later, I was
there with my girlfriend and I getto the rumor and with at Gore.
If you go to this to therumor, on your way, there is
actually an intermediate and then at thatintermediate loops down and meets at the bottom
of this double Diamond, the rumor. So I was like, all right,

(01:13:06):
you go take the take the intermedia. I'm gonna do rumor, and
you meet me at the bottom andyou'll see me. Right, Fear hit
me again. Ski tips are over. Fear hits me. But now my
girlfriend's down there watching me, andI'm like, oh crap, I gotta
do this. Talk about the manright the macho. I'm like, oh

(01:13:27):
crap, I gotta do this.So I do it. But here's what
fear did to me. I goto do it, and now I'm a
really good skier. I could definitelydo this. I trip myself up on
my skis and I tumble down theentire mountain. I tumble down the entire
mountain like because because it's a doubleDiamond, it's so steep you can't stop
your tumble like, you just keepgoing. So I literally I lost my

(01:13:48):
ski at the top. I literallymake it almost down to the bottom,
like to where I'm shouting to herI'm good and she can hear me,
right, So I climb back tothe top. I buckle my I come
down and I get down to herand I go I'm doing it again.
We go back up to the top. She's like, she's begging me not
to, and I'm like, Ihave to do it, and you the

(01:14:11):
pain of the pain of not ofnot showing up good for her. So
that pain became more than the fearof going down. And so I went
up and and I did it,and then after that I did it over
and over and over again, andI didn't fall because I just conquered that
fear. I I bring this upbecause of what we're just talking about now,

(01:14:32):
of like I did kind of likelose lose little track as to why
I brought this up. But whatI learned from all of this was fear
can stop us from doing things,and fear can injure us sometimes, but
when we learn to overcome that fear, we can actually be really successful at

(01:14:54):
almost anything. And and and whatI'm what I'm saying in all of this
too, is that I had thecapability at that tenure, as that ten
year old to do that mountain.I know I did because I know what
I did. All I did wasput my ski tips down and go straight.
That's all I had to do.But fear stopped me from doing it.
And so when we're fearful, itdoesn't mean that we don't have the
capabilities to do something. You know, we can do it. We can

(01:15:17):
do anything really exactly. And sowhat I learned to do, so the
path to overcoming fear for me wasto not try to overcome it, which
led to overcoming it, which isinstead of overcoming it, I just decided
I would say, I'm going totake fear and to be a ride along

(01:15:40):
with me. There goes my Miami. Also, I'm like, you're gonna
be my ride along. And Iliterally thought this, like, I'm gonna
it's my right along, and I'mgoing to show fear courage. I'm going
to introduce fear to courage. Soyou know, without courage, I mean,
I'm sorry, without fear, therewouldn't even be courage. You need
to have fear in order for courageto show. So I would just take

(01:16:00):
fear with me because overcoming fear wasan impossibility for me. It was just
it was just my home emotional likebase. That was my bace, that
was my home. So I couldn'tget rid of it. So I just
started deciding to be courageous and throughthe courage. At this point, I'm

(01:16:21):
right now and it's little by littleguys. It's like every you know,
every year, just continuing on.It's the progress of doing it. At
this point, I really feel Imight be wrong. I'm not sure,
but I feel like I live veryfearlessly. Now I have an idea and
I jump at it. I justdo it. I'm woking up by an

(01:16:41):
inspiration and I get up and Iwrite it down and then I act on
it immediately. I don't think,how is it going to work? Is
it going to work? What amI going to lose? Should I do
it now? I don't think thosethings. I'm just like, we're doing
it now, let's do it andwe go. This is how I started
doing events. We am I todo events, you know, like I
had never done events other than mykid's birthday parties. You know, I

(01:17:02):
never did any event, and hereI am, all of a sudden,
I became an event. I starteddoing events. And I had Billy Osbrooks,
which is a motivational speakers. He'sa top motivational speaker. And I
just called him and I became friendswith him, and then I had him
at my events and I spoke atthree of his events. So, you
know, so that and all ofthose experiences teach me confidence. It teaches

(01:17:26):
me what I'm saying right now,which is you've got to do it anyway.
You got to just bring fear withyou and do courage and then show
show fear because she fear was justa part of me and it was my
best friend. To be honest withyou, fear. I loved fear because
it protected me. So it wasn'tlike I didn't have an antagonistic relationship with
fear. It was like, thankyou, Fear, you saved me for

(01:17:47):
this one. So then I startedactually then teaching fear that it's okay,
because you know, that's basically theI know I talk these weird. I
love this because like that's exactly Igot two thing three. One that's exactly
probably where I was trying to gowith that story was that it took courage
to do it. But but two, I got a fun game for everyone

(01:18:08):
here. And these these don't airas quickly as my Instagram lives do.
So if you're listening to this rightnow, this is definitely a few months
later and uh this has already takingplace. But but you can jump on
my Instagram at Michael's Misito Inc.To To watch this, but watch watch
this everyone, All right, Igot something for you. Are you ready?

(01:18:30):
So I do my Instagram lives everymorning, and this morning this is
exactly what happened to me. Ipromise you. I was meditating. I
meditate every day, and in poppedmy mind my Instagram lives and I was
like, all right, how doI continue these? What do I keep
doing? And on March second willbe an entire month of me doing them
every single day, Saturdays and Sundaysincluded, right, And I have a

(01:18:53):
goal to just continue them. That'smy goal. But I'm like, I
constantly need change. So I thinkthat that's why I was meditating on it,
as like, how am I gonnachange it to where I can continue
wanting to do it? And Iwas thinking, well, what if I
collaborate with people? What if Ihave guests come on and it's not just
me talking about these different things,but I have somebody come on, or
maybe one of my listeners, oneof my viewers who are who are there

(01:19:15):
alive with me? They just Ibring them on. But I was like,
well, I know that sometimes somepeople want to watch, I want
to observe, but they don't wantto be on it with me, right,
So here we go. You readyto just jump in with me.
I'd like to invite you as myvery first invitation to join the like where's
this going? And we're like,where is I don't know? What are

(01:19:36):
we doing? I'm gonna, well, we're gonna. We're gonna look fear
in the eye. Right, We'regonna you say it, Yes, that's
right right now, this minute,this minute. Because and not that you're
fearful of doing this, but likeinspiration, right when inspira you said.
You just said, when inspiration popsin my mind, I go for it
and do it. When when theopportunity comes, I take it. Right.
Well, you didn't say exactly likethat, but that's what you said.

(01:19:58):
That's what I That's what I That'swhat I observed or witnessed. I
get you because inspiration comes from yoursoul. Fear comes from our subconscious mind,
which is our past experiences. That'snot real, that's that's that's the
illusion. But our soul guides us, it gives you those inspirations, and
that if we live more out ofthere and we attach ourselves more to that,
then you will live more fruitfully forsure, because you're you're not letting

(01:20:23):
fear control you. That's that's that'swhat I do. That's what I tell
myself, and this is what Ido. And I'm yes, I'll jump
on Instagram Live. I'm not scared. Yes, I'm not heard. I
didn't think you were scared. Idon't think you were scared. I think
what I wanted to show as anexample to everybody is that you and I
didn't talk about this prior we have. I let everybody. I'm an open
book. I let everybody know ifwe talked about something prior or not.

(01:20:44):
We did not. This just cameto me this morning of like, I
want to invite a guest onto myInstagram lives and you just talked about like
just jumping into things. And I'mlike, you know what, I'm going
to invite her and I know she'sgoing to say yes. So let's get
my first booking right here exactly.It'll be fun, so much fun,
awesome, awesome. So you're goingto everybody, You're going to see a
twist to those Instagram lives and you'regoing to be on there and share some

(01:21:05):
knowledge. We'll talk some more laterabout it, but I just thought we
can just give a quick example oflike look, inspiration and opportunity just strack,
let's jump on it right exactly.I want to because you know,
just just so that everybody can getback to their their daily lives. I
know, we're having a ton offun right here. I love it when
I meet with somebody like you,where you know, in our pre interview,

(01:21:28):
like we hit it off like rightaway. I was like, all
right, this is going to bea fun interview. Like we just have
this like great chemistry between us,and then you just have so much knowledge
and so much experience to share.I love it when we just go on
and on and on. But unfortunatelyall good things must wrap up, and
we could always always have you instudio in person to do this again.
Oh yeah, so the reason togo to New York so many But before

(01:21:50):
we wrap up, I do wantto bring up Circle of Champions Worldwide and
just if you could just share itsgoal and what you're doing there. All
right. So when I said thatit's been the last three years where I
did the biggest leap, it wasthrough the birth of Circle of Champions Worldwide.

(01:22:12):
So that was just a vision thatI had that I was too afraid
to that was during my fearful statewhere it was just it was just there
in my mind for like a fewyears. Thrive life was another word that
was given to me like years beforetoo, and I didn't know what it
was what I was going to usethat for. So I gave birth to
Circle of Champions Worldwide. I justopened up a Facebook community and everything changed

(01:22:33):
from that point on. I didCircle because before that, I've had Trinity
Community Mental Center for seventeen years now, it's been seventeen years. So I
would literally live in here. Isay live because in my business, I'd
be here like from the morning tillnine o'clock, ten o'clock at night.
My kids will come here to bewith me. This is the lifestyle had

(01:22:54):
for so many years. So withCircle of Champions Worldwide, I wanted community
to have a bigger impact on theworld. That's why it's worldwide. I
wanted to do this whole thing offinding people who have overcome any type of
trauma and that they're they're examples ofgoodness, They're examples of post traumatic growth,
of thriving of things like that.So that's why I open that up

(01:23:17):
and from there, I've met somany people and now it's just a Facebook
community where I do events, theUnleashure Greatness events. I do in person
one and I do a virtual one. I try to do one a year,
and we have speakers. I invitepeople who want to share their story
of overcoming and thriving. And Ibelieve like through your story, you give

(01:23:40):
someone else a roadmap for their transformationand their for them to be able to
thrive. Everyone has. You know, maybe someone won't connect with my story,
but they'll connect with your story.Maybe they won't connect with my roadmap,
but they'll connect with yours. SoI try to have at least five
or six different speakers, and Itry to do it like Ted Talk,
but I call it like Thrive Talk, where I do the twenty minute thing

(01:24:01):
and then I do where you tellyour story in that way. But that's
what Circle of Champions is all about. It's just it's a community and we
try to have meetups and events,and it's all about thriving. It's all
about thriving and overcoming. I lovethat. I love that, absolutely love
that. So I always like toask about your mantra, but you've already

(01:24:25):
shared it in that and I don'tthink it's your mantra. But because you
have so many different quotes on yourFacebook and different ideas that you live by,
but you said it, which wasyou don't need to know how when
you allow your soul to lead andI love that. So unless there's a
different one that you would like tospeak on, could you help us bring
this full circle together? Well,a big one that I always say is

(01:24:49):
the person you begin to survive isnot the person you need to become to
thrive. So that speaks to thetransformation that we all have to go through
to create the life that we wantto live, the life that we see
in our vision, but we're afraidto go for or we have a disbelief.
And I think that the visions thatyou get are not the visions that
I get. So everyone thinks like, well, that's just something that popped

(01:25:12):
in my mind. It's like,No, when you get a vision and
you have that thing nudging at you, that is what you're meant to do,
That that's your soul's purpose. AndI'm not religious, but I do
believe in God, and I dobelieve in that we have a soul and
that we have a purpose in life, and a lot of times, I
think it's wrapped around our pain.So everything I do is wrapped around the

(01:25:36):
pain I experienced. Like here atTrinity, all I ever wanted was to
work with foster kids because I feltlike a foster kid, even though I
never was a foster kid, butI know what it's like to move from
house to house, and it fellinto our laps. We ended up getting
a contract for like seven years workingwith foster kids and day County, you
know, the parents trying to getthem back in the kids. And so

(01:25:59):
if you just believe it and youmove forward on it, the rest of
the house would show up for you. A lot of that stop. A
lot of what stops us is thatwe don't know the whole road. But
we don't need to know the wholeroad. We only need to know the
next step. And then when youtake that step, like in Kansas.
In Kansas, I used to driveat night and it would be really foggy,
and I know, and there's hardlyany lights, So I never knew

(01:26:23):
like I had to trust that asI drove, I wasn't going to fall
off the edge of the earth.I needed to trust that the road was
going to continue. And that's sortof like how we go through life.
We have to trust that whatever getsilluminated in front of us is enough for
us to drive to go that muchfurther, and as we proceed more will
be given to us so that wecould continue on the path. But we

(01:26:43):
have to believe that we have Sothat's what I urge everyone to believe that,
and we become we need to becomein the process, but we could
also be intentional in that in beingand being being able to be the type
of person that could get the lifethat we want. I am so grateful
for the opportunity to meet with youtoday. Your your stories, your your

(01:27:09):
authenticity, your your sharing of everything, of knowledge of everything. Has just
been an incredible journey today. I'vereally I'd like to say I enjoyed it,
but I also I get you andand I want you to know that,
you know, I'm also all ofanybody who's listening as well that maybe

(01:27:30):
has experienced childhood trauma and everything isyou know, there there's a community there,
and you've created it. And I'mso grateful for you to create a
community of safety for people that experiencedthe type of trauma that you did,
and and that others experience as well. So I'm just grateful for the opportunity
to meet with you today. You'vebeen just an amazing guest and and so
your stories are so inspiring and I'mso grateful for that. I want to

(01:27:55):
make sure that people know how toconnect with you. Of course all of
this will be in the show notes, but I want to make sure that
people know how to connect with youany programs or events that you have going
on, if you'd like to sharethat with everyone now. Well, before
I do that, I want tosay that I'm so grateful to be on
your show too. I could tell, and that's why we hit it off,
because I could tell you're such alight in the world as well with

(01:28:16):
everything that you're doing. And thishas been like a real honor for me.
So thank you so much for havingme. And I'm mostly on Instagram
and Facebook, said I et amore and or SADII inamore dot com.
That's my website, and through thereyou could message me and we we will

(01:28:38):
connect. I answer all my messagesand that's maybe not super quick, but
I do answer my messages. Cool. And how can somebody find your Facebook
group? It's Circle of Champions worldwide. With the world. The world is
the icon, so yeah, andI have I also have a community number.
I could give that number two andI charted daily inspirations through my community

(01:29:00):
and I just forgot the number rightnow, but I will. That's the
text message number that you have allof your Facebook page right all of your
Instagram and Facebook like I've seen youpost it. Yeah, the three three
zero five seventy three three three fourthree. That's my community number. So
that's a texting community also that Ihave where I communicate through. I just

(01:29:21):
send daily inspirations and I send news. I send news through there. I
love that. I am planning.I am planning to do a live event
here in Miami, which will probablybe in August, and we just haven't
settled on the day, but thatwould be in August. Okay, cool,
Well, we'll let our audience know. I want to thank you again
so much for coming on the showand listen. You know, we're in

(01:29:41):
New York, you're in Miami.It's nice up here, so you are
always welcome back on the show.And it would be amazing to have you
in studio next time. Thank you. That would be so much fun.
Thank you so much. Thanks forcoming on. Thank you for listening to
The Michael Esposito Show. For shownotes, video clips, and more episodes,
go to Michael Esposito Inc. Dotcom backslash podcast. Thank you again

(01:30:04):
to our sponsor dan ten Insurance Serviceshelping businesses get the right insurance for all
their insurance needs. Visit Denten dotio to get a quote that's d E
n T dot io and remember whenyou buy an insurance policy from Denten,
you're giving back on a global scale. This episode was produced by Uncle Mike

(01:30:27):
at the iHeart Studios in Poughkeepsie.Special thanks to Lara Rodrian for the opportunity
and my team at Michaelsposito, Inc.

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