October 27, 2022 • 49 mins
Jeremy Hobson hosts from WGCU in Fort Myers, FL and takes calls from around the country with meteorologist John Patrick of ABC 7 in Fort Myers, Notre Dame professor Debra Javeline, and DJ Anthony Valadez. The topic: how is the changing climate affecting you and what, if anything, do you want the government to do about it?
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson Live this evening
from WGCU in Fort Myers, Florida. Now this is our
second show, but just like in our first show last week,
DJ Anthony Valadez is with us. He is our house DJ.
Hi Anthony, Hey Jeremy. How's it going. It's going very well,
and we have a few things to talk about. First
of all, for the listeners who are new to this show,
(00:26):
what we're trying to do is bring voices from the
vast middle of the country into the national conversation. People
who live in the middle are so important in our politics,
but are so often ignored by the media. Now, last
week we were in my hometown of Urbana, Illinois. We
were taking your calls about the most important issue to
you heading into the election, and our phones were absolutely
(00:48):
jammed Anthony the entire time. I just want to listen
to a few of the voicemails that we received during
the show. Hi, Jeremy, my name is Jeff. I'm from Cincinnati, Ohio. Hi,
it's Julia Walters. I'm in Virginia. This is Grant in Iowa. Hello,
my name is DJ. I am in Missouri. Hi, my
(01:10):
name is Lisa Becker. I am in O B G
N DOT in Denver, Colorado. HI. My name is madel
and Kelly. I live in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and my
number one issue for the election this year is climate change,
and relative to the election, my biggest concern to the inflation.
I'm very concerned, of course about reproductive freedom, and I'm
(01:34):
a social and fiscal conservative, but my primary issue this
November is democracy. Thanks for the conversation. So many calls, Anthony,
and if you can't get through at eight four four
Middle because the line are jammed, just leave a message
for us. We're listening to them all. But let's get
back to the middle now. There is no doubt that Urbana, Illinois,
(01:57):
where we were last week, my hometown, is in the
middle of the country. There's no doubt that Kansas City,
where we're going to be next week, is in the
middle of the country. But some people have been asking me,
wait a minute, Fort Myers, Florida, that is not the middle. Now.
I don't know if you've been to this part of
the country, but let me give you a little geography.
Fort Myers is actually due south of Ohio. In fact,
I seventy five goes all the way from Cincinnati down
(02:19):
to Fort Myers, and perhaps as a result, there are
a lot of Midwesterners here, retirees, vacationers, but also this
is a booming part of the country. Fort Myers was
actually one of the fifteen fastest growing cities in America
in the last census, and more people moved here from
Illinois than from any other state in the last few years.
But most importantly, Anthony, to the point of this show,
(02:41):
we are trying to elevate the voices of Americans who
are often left out of our national media. Now, there's
one more thing we should say. It has been less
than a month since Hurricane Ian slammed into this part
of the country, one of the deadliest storms ever to
hit Florida. Thankfully, this radio station where we're broadcasting tonight
is a fortress and was actually able to house some
(03:02):
of the other media organizations in this area during the hurricane.
But the cleanup continues, and we want to thank our
friends at WGCU for hosting us given the circumstances. Okay,
here's what we're asking tonight. How is climate change affecting
your community and what do you think elected officials should
do about it. Anthony, what is our number? Well, the
(03:23):
number is eight four four four Middle once again, that's
eight four four four six four three three five three.
Thank you, Anthony. And remember, as we have this conversation,
I want to hear from you, whatever your point of view,
there is no condescension here. We are going to have
respect for one another and a civil conversation even when
we disagree. Let me bring in our guests tonight. We've
got ABC seven Chief Meteorologist John Patrick, who has been
(03:45):
doing the weather here in Southwest Florida since two thousand five. John,
it's been a long time, yeah, And was this storm
Hurricane Ian the most powerful that you've ever covered here?
It is definitely the biggest and most powerful that i've here.
I was here, I came here in oh five. We
had Hurricane Wilma that year that hit near Marco Island,
(04:05):
Cape Romano. And then we had Hurricane Irma just five
years ago, and that one was a terrible storm that
also came on shore on Marco Island. We had, of course, Ian,
which took an eerily similar path to Hurricane Charlie back
in two thousand four. Hurricane Charlie was a Category four,
(04:26):
but the size of that storm was much smaller than Ian.
So with this storm, we had more widespread damage than
we did with Charlie. And you could see it even
now as you drive around to certain areas here. There's
debris on the sides of the roads, and many people,
including some that we've met in the last several days,
(04:48):
have lost their homes or everything that they've owned has
been destroyed. So John, thank you for being here. Deborah
Javelin is our other guest today from South Bend, Indiana,
professor political science at Notre Dame, who has a special
focus on climate change. Tell us a little bit about that. Deborah, Hi, Hi, everyone,
Thanks for having me in the politics of climate change. Actually,
(05:13):
and so I look at the recent devastation in Florida
through a political lens, and I was really interested in
jeremy your opening where you said that many of the
people who moved to Fort Myers came from the Midwest.
I think they're going in the wrong direction. I think
that we need to have a national conversation about where
people live and where is safe to live, especially in
(05:35):
this time of rebuilding. We're about to pour tremendous resources
into infrastructure. Are we going to do the very same
thing that got us into this mess in the first place,
or are we going to have sort of a big rethink,
a big national conversation about safe locations in a changing climate. Well,
(05:56):
I'm sure that our listeners are going to have some
thoughts on that. Let's go to one of the callers
that has come in and our number again, eight four
four middle. Haley is in Fort Myers, right here in
southwest Florida. Haley, I don't have to ask you how
how climate change is affecting you, but do you attribute
the hurricane that just hit to being stronger because of
(06:19):
climate change? Or what did you want to talk about?
I'm not a scientist evidence that they've presented, so yes,
I agree that it's due to you know, the impact
of our behavior as humans that is causing the changes
(06:40):
in the climate causing these big hurricanes. Did you see
damage because of hurricanean not personally? Not personally? What do
you think the government ought to do, given that you
believe that humans are making climate change worse than are
causing climate change. Well, one thing is to contribute towards
(07:02):
education about these things and reaching to people who are
maybe unable to be educated on this and bring up,
you know, awareness. What do you think, Haley, about what
Deborah Javelin just said about how people that are moving
(07:26):
from let's say the Midwest to Florida are moving in
the wrong direction, that people shouldn't be locating in areas
where they're at such risk from major hurricanes. Well, there's
risks everywhere, so I don't agree with that thought, Haley.
Thank you for your called Deborah Javelin. What about that
(07:47):
the fact that there is risk everywhere. People face risks
of wildfires in California, people face risks of hurricanes here,
tornadoes in the Midwest. What about that? This is not wrong.
Climate change poses risks everywhere it is. It's a global phenomenon.
There are relatively better and worse spaces to live. So
(08:09):
given sea level rise, for example, we know that coastal
living is unsustainable. There are places where the scientists from
from all different disciplines climate scientists, oceanographers are projecting levels
of that the sea will rise that will make current
(08:30):
coastal areas unlivable. That may be similar with the wildfire
areas in the in the West, but they are relatively speaking,
there are safer places here in the Midwest. Sure, we
will get extreme weather. We might get inland flooding, agriculture
may occasionally suffer from droughts. But the current multi billion
(08:51):
dollar devastation that we are seeing, that's primarily happening where
you are, right. So the costliest disaster in US history
are happening from Katrina and Harvey and Maria and Sandy
and Ida. You're not going to find that level of
devastation in the upper Midwest. Yeah, Deborah, let me ask
(09:15):
Let me ask John Patrick about that, because I imagine
a lot of your viewers would not agree that they
shouldn't be living here in Florida. I mean, we're living
in paradise, as everybody says. You know, we live where
you vacation. And I know that over the past several years,
especially after Hurricane Andrew, the building codes here in Florida
have gotten a lot stricter than they used to be,
(09:36):
and a lot of the structures that were annihilated in
Hurricane Ian were older buildings. Five years ago, when we
had Hurricane Irma, the storm surge in the town in
Collier County just south of here, Everglade City, they had
about nine feet of storm surge, and they had about
that again with Hurricane Ian. They were just about finished
(09:59):
with the rebuilding process five years later down there after
Hurricane Irma. And one of the things that a lot
of the homes down there had to be revised as
far as how they were built. They had to elevate them.
So the first floor of living area is what would
normally be the second floor. So you see a lot
of these houses that are on stilts. Now you'll have
(10:20):
like a garage or a storage on that first level
or whatever, but they are elevated as far as the
living area, so they're able to handle storm surge better
than they used to. I just want to get to
one call quickly before we go to break here. Jay
in Minneapolis, let's hear from you. What do you have
to say? Yeah, I guess I just said two things
(10:43):
is I've kind of watched everything on folds over the
last kind of decade. I think that a lot of
the policies that have been pushed forth have exacerbated inflation
and also kind of led to worse farming practices that
(11:04):
do create a lot of over reliance on water and
the use of that such as ethanol. And I think
that I think that we're leading a lot of a
lot of short term policies that exacerbate everything into the future,
(11:25):
when when all of this should have been done much
so much could have been done ten years ago. Right,
So we keep trying to put band aids and patches
on things. But all of these policies and all these
building codes are just done after the fact, and and
(11:46):
it just keeps leading to more and more and more,
and it just it just builds up. So can we
try to address right A band aid approach is what's
upsetting you on the on this issue. Jay, Thank you
very much for your call Again. Our number is eight
four four four Middle. You can also reach out to
us at Listen to the Middle dot com and we'll
(12:08):
be right back in a moment. If you're just tuning
in live, I'm Jeremy Hobson. This is The Middle. We
are a new national call and show focused on bringing
voices from the middle of the country into the national conversation.
(12:30):
By the way, if you miss any of the show
or you want to hear more, you can check out
our podcast The Middle with Jeremy Hobson wherever you get
your podcasts. And if you can't find it. You can
go to listen to the Middle dot com. We'll link
you to it there. My guest tonight Notre Dame Professor
Debrah Javelin and meteorologist John Patrick of ABC seven here
on the Florida Gulf Coast. We're asking you about climate change,
how it's affecting you, where you live, and what you
(12:52):
want the government to do about it. Eight four four
four Middle is our number. Let's go to Tim, who
is in southeast Michigan. Hello Tim, Hello, Hi, Hi, tell us,
how is climate change affecting you? What do you want
the US government to do about it? Well? I want
us to get on board the nuclear renaissance because our
(13:18):
portion of electric energy from the nuclear fission is declining
because we're retiring our reactor fleet and we have only
two reactors now under construction. I think the nuclear fission well,
nuclear fission provides reliable, around the clock electric power, unlike
certain renewable technologies I could mention. And because of that feature,
(13:38):
I believe the nuclear dominance for energy production is inevitable,
and the sooner humanity gets on board, the less profound
will be the damage to Earth's ecosphere, which I keep
an eye on because I am always trying to transplant
native specs to displace the invasive species in my yard.
(13:59):
So I watch this kind of carefully, and I think
that a nuclear renaissance is going to occur, and is
even now beginning. But our country is not on board. Well, well,
it liked a contrast at with China. Well and actually
at this moment, though we do have more nuclear actors
in operation than China. We have the most in the
entire world, although it's less than it was ten years
(14:21):
ago in this country. Are you worried at all, tim
about what happened in Japan with Fukushima or the nuclear
disasters that have happened. Does that scare you away from
nuclear at all? It does not, why because first, well,
or to begin on that, that was a outrageously miserable,
(14:44):
incompetent decision to put the generating equipment underneath the ground
level in abasement. Were right anyway? Setting that aside, they
should never have been building in that floodplaine for tsunami
location anyway, as they were worn through the centuries. By
(15:06):
the way, not a single person was injured or killed
by nuclear radiation at Fukushima. Many people died in the evacuation,
but none from radiation. Okay, so Tim, you're not worried
about about that. Let me go to Deborah Javelin our
guests on what you're bringing up, because actually we've gotten
some messages online about nuclear as well. Deborah, what about that?
(15:29):
This is obviously a controversial topic. Otherwise we'd probably have
gone all nuclear at this point. But what do you
think about the people that say that's the way out
of the climate crisis. I don't think concerned about time lines.
I view us as any climate emergency. I think the
climate emergency has arrived, and I think that we needed
to be addressing climate change yesterday. And I think that
(15:54):
most people who are gung ho about nuclear underestimate the
time frame that it would take to to to turn
everything into nuclear to power our economy by nuclear energy,
particularly because there is not public support for doing so.
So you can you can complain about that, but that's
(16:16):
the reality in our country. Some of us of good
you know, will will defend that and say here's my
reasons for not supporting nuclear. I will just say, just
as an objective reporting of the status of public opinion,
you're not going to get that support, which means you're
not going to get that kind of political support in
our legislature, So for me, it's kind of a non starter.
(16:39):
And that's not even getting into the cost of nuclear
which is sorbitant. So where all those who are all
that fund is going to come from. By the time
we could get agreement on that, the climate emergency has
punched just even deeper and we're going to be seeing
Ian's you know, left and right. So I think that
we have to look for our solutions more in more
(17:02):
in the in the very immediate future. Let's go to Justin,
who's calling from Philadelphia. Justin, you're lucky because you're the
first call from a coastal city that has been on
this show. I said that we're not shutting out the
coasts all together, so here you are example of that. Justin,
Welcome to the Middle. Thank you. Tell us what I
(17:25):
was trying to change effect a little ahead. Yeah, I
just wanted to speak a little bit to you know,
kind of how the conversation gets you know, narrated or
framed at least, you know, by the government. And I
really feel, you know, sometimes talking about it as this
big global issue is just too abstract, you know, in
(17:46):
big for the everyday person. And you know what I'm
interested in how my local, you know, county level, state
level politicians can show me you know, you know, climate
change action that just you know directly, you know, impacts me,
and the way they can kind of frame that change
(18:06):
around you know, everyday life. You know, So rather than
talking about is this big global challenge, you know, I
want to see my local politicians talking about, you know,
how to get me you know, more local food, or
how to give me access to that, or you know,
how to create healthier air, or you know, how to
(18:27):
you know, address human health issues. You know, our energy
and dependence and all of these things come from reducing
our carbon footprint. But you know, we can think about
them as localized issues that improve our quality of life.
And I think that could be more effective than thinking
about as this abstract, you know, enormous global challenge. Let
(18:47):
me let me take that to John Patrick, our guest.
At John You're you're here in southwest Florida. You just
dealt with Hurricane in. I wonder what you think about
what Justin just said right there that maybe bring it
to the local level makes more sense to get people
to wrap their heads around what needs to be done well.
For example, here in southwest Florida, we've been talking about
(19:09):
the effects of climate change on our newscast for a
long time, and one of the ways that we have
tied it in to the local area is the economy.
So much of our economy relies on tourism and fishing
and the like, and with climate change, temperatures are on
(19:30):
the rise. Mostly as we get those higher temperatures when
we get our sea breeze thunderstorms, for example, in the
afternoon during the summertime, we've been noticing more heavy rain
events out of those thunderstorms. I mean some afternoons we'll
get four five six inches of rain out of a thunderstorm,
and all that water runs through the ground, and at
(19:53):
certain times of the year we've got fertilizer in the
ground as well, and all that gets shoved into our
rivers and estuaries is runoff, and that gives you things
like blue green algae, which can result in fish kills,
which if you've ever been to the beach when there's
a fish kill there, it's not pretty, it doesn't smell pretty.
There's a real concern about that right now, right because
(20:15):
of all the rain that came from Hurricane In and
after the same thing happened after Hurricane Irma. The years
after Hurricane Irma, we had some pretty bad algae and
red tide and fish kills and all that. And that's
the concern now after Ian, is that we're going to
see all that again with all that heavy rain that
we had. You know, there there were parts of just
(20:37):
north of here in sarah Sota County they got almost
a foot and a half of rain and that wasn't
even storm surge or anything. That was just rain from
the hurricane Deborrah Javelin. What do you think about what
Justin was bringing up there, that maybe talking about you know,
the IPCC and the International Climate Action and all of
that stuff is a little too abstract and that we
(20:58):
should be focusing it more local. I think it's a
great I'm actually curious who are the politicians talking about
the IBCC even in the abstract. So I guess I
knew the bigger problem as the climate emergency is not
being treated as an emergency, either abstractly or locally, and
(21:19):
that instead we're talking about higher gas prices, and we
talk about higher gas prices as if that's some separate
issue and worthy of complaint, and we can have it all.
We want our gas prices to be low and fight
uh take climate action at the same time, and we
don't have political leaders who are translating this story well.
(21:45):
So I agree with the caller that that there's not
a good that that the climate situation is not being
explained well via politicians. But I think that partly we
constituents are to blame. I mean, we we are asking
for things from our political leaders that are undeliverable. You
can't have it both ways. You can't keep using cheap
(22:07):
fossil fuels and try to mitigate against climate change. Let's
take a listen to some of the calls that have
come in. Because some people aren't able to get through
they go to the voicemail. So our great producer puts
together a quick bontage and I want to listen to
it right now. Some of the people that have called
and left messages for us about how climate change is
(22:27):
change is impacting them. Oh Dennis and two rivers Wisconsin.
And I figure, if people don't believe climate change is
really happening, or if it's not really happening because of
human interaction or human actions. We should still stop putting
so much pollution out because it's just going to hurt us. Hey, well, also,
(22:48):
I'm in Denler. Well I'm actually at a meat Colorado.
They want to really push our electric cars. I admit
I'm a proud owner when I love it. You know,
we really want to expand the use of these electric cars.
Why don't we have charging stations as the rest of yours,
at least in the future. Clients, this is Joanne Dale
guard in to come see Michigan. Other than increasingly frequent
(23:08):
episodes of wonky weather, climate change has not affected me greatly,
not like people on in coastal regions. What I'd like
to see the government do about it is, first of all,
get the EPA, a good set of dentures to make
up for all the teeth that have been knocked or
yanked out of it. Thank you for listening. A good
(23:29):
set of dentures. I love that. Let's go to Utah.
Carol is online five Carol in Utah. Hello, Hi, how
are you are you guys doing tonight? We're doing great?
And tell us how climate change is impacting you in
your community? Sure so, I mean I've lived in Utah
in my whole life. So I've watched the Great Salt
(23:50):
Lakes slowly received and it's gotten pretty significant, and we've
seen so much less no fall, we've had pretty significant droughts.
So that's been some thing, you know, when you're thinking
about I'm in, you know, my approaching my late twenties,
thinking about having kids, having a family, intimidating, thinking about
what's happening around me. Would you actually not have kids
(24:11):
because of the threat of climate change? Carol? I was
in can you hear me? I can hear you a
little bit? Yet? Would you would you not have kids
because of the threat of climate change? I think we
lost Carol there. Let's let's let's uh well, actually, let
(24:34):
me ask you about that, Deborah Javelin, because you look
at sort of the risks that people decide to take.
Have you heard about that, people deciding they don't want
to have children because they're worried about the future of
the planet. My students talk about it. Yeah, My students
talk about it all the time, not as a firm decision,
but as a considerations, particularly the ones who are aware
(24:57):
that if everyone lived as Americans live, we would need two, three,
four planets and so they ponder their consumerism and whether
it is moral or ethical to how do you live
responsibly on this planet? So I don't know that they
have answers, but it's definitely a discussion among young people.
(25:19):
John Patrick, do you ever hear that. I have not
heard that as far as people considering whether or not
to have children because of climate change, but it's you know,
I was just sitting here listening to all this, and
it's it's certainly something to think about. You know, I've
got two nieces. One is a freshman in college and
the other one is sixteen right now, and I was
just thinking this. You know, what is what kind of
(25:39):
planet are we're going to have twenty thirty forty years
from now, you know, as far as are we going
to have these stronger hurricanes or we're going to have
drafts and all that goes along with that. Let's go
to another call. Michael Collins is calling in from Farmington Hill, Michigan. Michael,
Welcome to the show. Hello, Hi, What did you want
(26:03):
to talk about? Michael? I wanted to just say that
renewables plus storage is now the lowest cost energy in
the world and cost less than fossil or nuclear, So
the storage makes renewables twenty four hours like baseloads, and
(26:26):
investing in storage makes more sense than expensive nuclear or
even fossil. We can keep the fossil and let it
attrition out and age out. Rocky Mountain Institute has already
discussed as years ago. It's the most sensible approach because
you don't have to keep saying climate change this or
climate change that. It happens to be the lowest cost
(26:48):
for even those who don't believe climate change exists. Have
you gone solar yourself, Michael, No, because I rent, but
I live part of the year in California and I
charge my car from nine to three because of the
Electricity maps dot com that shows when usage is highest
(27:11):
and nine am to three pm it's mostly solar and
you can see that on the California Grids app or
Electricity maps dot Com. And I charge at night when
the when the afternoon peak is over. So being a
good grid citizen is something that host ev owners are
already doing. And adding vehicle to grid storage, vehicle to
(27:36):
home storage, mechanical batteries, chemical batteries, thermal batteries is going
to be the future and will be the shock absorbers
that the grid needs wind and solar when it's not needed,
and releases it is also the low loss DC lines
(27:58):
that the federal government is proposing to take renewables from
where they are generated in the unpopulated areas and transport
them to where the population centers are that don't necessarily
have renewable energy is going to help levelize that as well,
so we can keep the existing fossil keep the existing
nuclear attrition, will allow it to age out and provide
(28:20):
still in power, and we can depend primarily on renewables
plus storage. All right, well, Michael, thank you for your call.
I actually want to ask you, John Patrick, because we
are in the Sunshine State here in Florida. I haven't
seen given that as much solar electricity on the top
of roofs as I would have expected. We're kind of
(28:41):
headed in that direction. I know. Over the past I
would say at least five years, there's been more of
a push to go solar, and there's been a lot
more just me personally at my house, there have been
a lot more door to door salespeople with solar. We
actually have the first solar city in the entire country
here in southwest Florida. It's just to the north of
(29:03):
where we're sitting in Fort Myers. It's called Babcock Ranch,
and it's an entire city that has solar power. They
have these gigantic solar power farms and they were one
of the areas during the hurricane that did not lose
power because it's all solar. Devior Javelin. I gotta say,
I have solar, and I love my solar, and it
immediately on day one made my electricity bill lower than
(29:26):
it would have been even with the payment for the
solar panels. But the incentives are really getting a lot
better than they used to be for solo across the country. Yeah,
and I guess we also should be applauding the Inflation
Reduction Act and amazing, what is it, three hundred and
sixty nine billion dollars finally devoted to climate change. So
(29:48):
it took us a really long time to get here,
but we did get here, and so those incentives could
only be improving. And I guess I would just caution
that the main obstacle is the fossil fuel industry, which
continues to to pump our campaign finance system full of
of you know, they're they're the the obstruction ers. The
(30:10):
obstruction is there. They're the uh, the reason that we
are still facing challenges going going fully to renewable. We're
getting some comments online at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Paula and Milwaukee says her region is not ready for
the coming influx of climate refugees. Kate tweets from Missouri.
I'm very concerned about the warming of the oceans. And
(30:33):
we'll be right back in a moment. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. We are live from WGCU in Fort Myers, Florida,
a place that less than a month ago was devastated
by Hurricane Ian, one of the strongest hurricanes ever to
(30:56):
hit Florida. And I'm joined this evening by John Patrick,
a meteorologists Chief meteorologists at ABC seven here on the
Florida Gulf Coast, and Notre Dame political science professor Deborah Javelin,
who also focuses on climate change. Our number is eight
four four Middle. Let's go to another call. This is
Tyler in Salt Lake City. Tyler, we just heard a
(31:18):
little bit about the Salt Lake drying up. But tell
us what are you seeing that are you seeing evidence
of that yourself as well. Oh yeah, definitely, we are
getting toxic dust storms from all the industrial waste that
settled into the bed and now it's getting picked up.
But I think more to what I wanted to maybe
try to direct is I like the investment in nuclear,
(31:41):
but maybe we could search for an alternative to our
natural gas because we use a lot of that in
the winter time. We obviously smell the methane and linking
out of our homes when we're walking by the gas pipe.
So maybe looking into geothermal would be a viable option,
because I know we're increasing our solar but you know
when the snow covers up, the solar panels well in
(32:06):
natural gas. By the way, the US is the leader
among the natural gas producers in the world. That's set
an all time high for natural gas production. In the
year twenty twenty one, twenty three percent of global natural
gas production came from the US, ahead of Russia and
even the Middle East. But that doesn't make you happy, Tyler.
(32:30):
I mean, I understand the use for it and the
benefits it has versus gaspoline, but for regions, mountaineers regions
specifically where our winters get really really cold. Obviously, it
gets to be very worrisome because we get the inversions
that get over our basin areas, not just in the winter,
(32:53):
but in the summertime. So we are facing a you know,
one two punch of record ninety A heat waves in
our summer times, and obviously it's hurting our loans, it's
causing more cases of bathment, and a lot of folks
who are already sensitive. Deborh Javelin, We've actually heard from
(33:13):
several people online about the issue the health issues that
are caused by climate change that in fact, you know,
maybe there should be less focus on the rising sea
levels and more on the things that are hurting us directly,
that are the pollution that is hurting us. What do
you think about that? I guess so we're just we're
(33:35):
talking about messaging. Does that what you mean? What sure?
What would get it to resonate more? I actually don't know,
and I've heard that that's that's been around for quite
some time. Actually, like if you could just if you
could just convince people to be compared to care about
(33:55):
local pollution, then maybe they would start caring more about
climate change. But I still return to this idea that
that people have to be willing to sacrifice, and that
for me, the bigger issue is that people like their
lifestyles and even the ones, even the ones you call
in and say I'm really concerned and I really want
(34:15):
to do something about climate change. The second that you
mentioned a slight inconvenience, a slight change that they might
need to make, then all of a sudden you get
pushed back. So I think that that for me, is
a bigger hurdle than than than just trying to tweak
the messaging. That's Seba Javelin, a professor of political science
(34:36):
at Notre Dame. Let's go to another call from this area.
Dan in Marco Island is on the line. Dan, were
you impacted by the by the hurricane good evening? Yes,
we were. We had kind of most form surge road
and the island and it was it was frightening and
(35:01):
it was a mythical beast, as we say down here,
because we've we've heard about the storm surge, but we've
never seen that. We finally did. So what do you
what do you want the government to do about climate
change or do you attribute the storm to climate change? Well?
I think you know, I've heard of recent commentary that
(35:25):
you know, storms seemed to be getting stronger, and you know,
I don't agree with that, and the teams like we've
had a few pretty strong storms in the last five
years in southwest Florida. But you know, spending money on
climate change how to these in my opinions, thinkers with
you know, how effective it's going to be if no
(35:46):
one else, you know, other economies India, China, Russia aren't
playing by our rules? Are the taxes we're going to pay?
And the costs were in a page have this uh
green you know environmental eLife in our country. They making
(36:07):
a cripple our economy and needs a bigger problems. So
I don't I don't know if spending money out of
climate changing necessarily on this, right Dan, thank you for
your call. John Patrick. Let me go to you on that,
because this is you know, this is an attitude I
(36:28):
think in this part of Florida especially you probably hear
a lot of which is should we be hurting our
economy if that's what it's going to do to spend
more money to deal with rising sea levels with climate change,
especially if and we saw this today in a you know,
international climate reporting a lot of other countries are not
(36:50):
spending what they've said they're going to spend to deal
with climate change. It's definitely a global solution. You know,
how do you get all these countries on board to
combat this That I can't answer you, but we're seeing
the effects of it and right now it's ruining our economy.
I mean, we can't have tourists on our beaches. Boats
(37:11):
can't go out there fishing because we've got all the
debris from the storm, including oil and gas and whatever
leaks out. Now weeks later, you can't go into you
can't go onto the beaches. Yes, there's advisories on along
our beaches to stay out of the water because of
all the contaminants that are in it. I mean, we
aired the story last night, I think it was it
(37:32):
was either last night or two nights ago of during
the storm, porta potties literally flying during the storm ending
up in the rivers. So you've got you know, it's
in porta potties. You've got that in the rivers and
in the waterways now too. So there's there's still weeks
later in advisory to not go out of the water
(37:52):
or not to go into the water, I should say,
and it's going to take a while to get all
that cleaned up. Let's go to Barbara, who is in Scottsdale.
I assume Arizona at Barbara, Hello, welcome, Hello, Yes, and
tell us what's on your mind. Two things. First of all,
we have heat that starts at one hundred degrees in
(38:14):
May and it continues through October. It's getting longer and
it's impacting a lot of people. The energy bills are higher. Secondly,
i'd like to to share as a former education professor
when I did study abroad in Italy with students. As
of twenty eighteen, the Ministry of Education in Italy mandated
(38:34):
teaching about climate change and the curriculum for all the children.
We're having challenges with that, and I would like to
see a focus on teaching the aspects of climate change
that are economic and that are impacting health and livelihood.
Thank you, Thank you so much for that call. Debra Javelin.
You are in the education field, so what do you
(38:55):
think about that? Are we not teaching about climate change enough,
especially in the schools? My part to keep offering new classes,
but I would love to link your point with the
point of the former coller where the suggestion was that
that we either have to address the environment or address
(39:17):
the economy. Anybody who takes classes on at the intersection
of sustainability and climate change and economics will tell you
that addressing climate change can be a win win, It
can be a great thing for the account. There are
all these opportunities out there. There are growth fields in
in renewables for example, and energy efficiency and new technologies.
(39:41):
So yes, I totally agree with a caller that we
should be teaching climate change in schools. I think we're
increasingly doing that, but not even just the basics of
how the climate is changing, but really what to do
in a in a changing climate, and showing our students
the kind of world that they could live in and
(40:03):
where they could make contributions. Let's go to Shannon in Beaufort,
South Carolina, a place I know how to pronounce because
I've been there. Shannon, and so welcome to the show
and tell us. Tell us what's on your mind about
climate change in your community. A lot of fun I've
mentioned the idea of housing developments and housing developments, how
(40:26):
they clear guide all of the trees before they build
the houses and as the result, all of those houses
are supposed to direct sunlight in the summer, and of
course they're forced these more air conditions to compensate of that.
So what's what's what do you think that the government
ought to do well? I mean, I guess there's a
(40:46):
question of sort of the economic concept of externalities. That
are the companies that are building these houses. They're not
having to pay for those direct costs, the air conditioning costs,
but they're definitely not having to pay for the indirect
calls to the society related to more energy requirements. So
(41:07):
I guess you could sort of make an argument that
you know, governmental, local, or stake and can sort of
have a legitimate reason to talk about at least regulating
these companies buildings their building projects, like the fact that
it's inevitable that they're going to lead to a horror. Uh.
(41:28):
We we've got it there, Shannon, Uh. And we're getting
a we're really getting a good view at John Patrick,
at the wide range of phone connections tonight. I guess
not many people make voice calls anymore, but we're hearing
all kinds of different, different kinds of them. Deborah Javelin.
Though I do know that you have focused some of
your research on the measures that people take in the
(41:53):
houses that they live in to protect them against the elements,
against the weather, against the climate. Yes, this color was
concerned about energy efficiency, but my research has much more
to do with retrofitting for resilience, to to protect against
hurricanes or I don't do wildfire research. But it would
(42:15):
be the same idea that that our homes are should
be our fortresses. Right, And at the beginning of this conversation,
somebody had talked about building codes, which which are fantastic
when they are enacted and when they are implemented, But
that isn't true for a lot of the Atlantic and
(42:35):
Gulf Coast states, and even in the places where the
building codes currently are rigorous, they only apply to new construction,
which in most that's that's about less than ten percent
of the houses that are that are in existence or
will be in existence. So we've got a real problem
on our hands with the ninety something percent of houses
(42:56):
that are neither energy efficient or built to withstand the
disasters that might befall them. And so to the extent
that we need again a big a rethink of what
we do with our properties. We need to think about
retrofitting and perhaps mandating retrofitting if you're going to insist
(43:17):
in living in harm's way, Is it really responsible to
live in a home that you know has openings, doors, windows,
roofs that are not built to current code, and when
your home gets destroyed, you're probably not insured. You probably
most most people, even the ones who should be helped
(43:38):
should have flood insurance, don't have flood insurance. Women. The
state is now stepping into provide insurance for wind damage. Oh,
this is incredibly unsustainable. So for people who want to
dig in their heels and say that this is where
I want to live, okay, but are you willing to
incur the risk? So when something happens the next time,
(44:00):
who pays the cost? We need to have a conversation
about that. I'm not saying I necessarily have an answer,
but I am saying that I think that we only
have this conversation after the fact, when everybody's got their
hand out and saying, well, of course I'm a victim.
Now of course you should help me. And I do
sympathize with people who are in that plight, but we
know what's going to happen again, and again and again.
(44:21):
So if we can anticipate this, we should be taking
proactive measures. Let's go to Barbara in Chicago, Illinois. Barbara,
welcome and tell us what's on your mind. Well, I
am wondering about how much war, the cause of war,
the destruction of war, the destruction of property and everything
(44:44):
helps contributing to climate change. All right, what makes you
focus on that as as a cause of climate change? Pardon?
Why am I focusing on that? Yeah? Why? Why? Why
are you focused on wars as as and its impact
(45:05):
on climate change? Are just curious? Well, I've read about
the impact of war on climate, on destruct environmental destruction
and and contributing to climate change, and it's just so
pervasive in our in our society. Uh, Barbara, thank you
(45:31):
for that, called Deva Javelin. I guess I'll go to
you on that, not to our meteorologist John Patrick, but
Deva you your thoughts on what Barbara has to say there.
Barbara's right, war is incredibly carbon emitting, and what we're
the destruction that we're seeing in Ukraine right now, for example,
is doing in addition to harming humans, it's harming the planet.
I hope that peace comes to the people of Ukraine soon,
(45:53):
and when it does, they will ask to rebuild, and
they will have the right to to ask for that,
and the re building too will be carbon emitting. So
this we just keep getting back to this notion of
not having a grand plan or for how we rebuild,
whether it's rebuilding after war, rebuilding after hurricane. But among
(46:14):
the many reasons to not want war, one of them
would certainly be its impact on our climate. Let me
just finally come back to you, John Patrick. You know
we're here in Fort Myers. You've just been through a
major hurricane. Do people here feel like now that was
a somebody called it a five hundred years storm? Is
it a five hundred yearstorm? Iran, I wouldn't say a
(46:38):
five hundred year storm. I mean we've had Andrew, We've
had Michael. You know, those are all very catastrophic storms
as well. I mean for southwest Florida. Ian was the
worst for us, you know, in modern times, partially because
we're built up much more now than we were back
even you know, back a half a century or a
century ago, and so now when a storm comes through,
(46:59):
you're going to have much more damage. And unfortunately, like
we saw here much more loss of life just because
people more people are living here than they used to
in prior years. So do people feel like they just
got through the really bad one and they're going to
have a little while before another one, or that the
climate has changed and now they're going to be dealing
with this every couple of years. Yeah, you always hope
(47:22):
that you don't have one for a long time. I mean,
we went from Hurricane Donna back in nineteen sixty. That
one was a direct hit on Marco Island, and we
really went, if memory serves me, we went all the
way to Hurricane Charlie in two thousand and four before
we had another really catastrophic direct hit here in southwest Florida.
(47:43):
Now since Charlie, then we had Wilma, then we had Irma,
and now we've had Ian. Part of that is luck,
but you know, part of that is climate change with
these stronger storms nowadays. Two. All right, well we have
time for one more thing here. And it's the fun part.
I guess the whole show has been fun. But let's
now we've got Anthony Valadez. So Anthony, tell us what's
going on. Well, it's not just fun, it's the infamous
(48:05):
needle drop. Here's what we are going to do. I'm
sitting in front of a turntable and I broke out
this special record from Gainesville, Florida's very own, and I'm
going to place the needle in the middle of the record.
And you have to tell me who this artist is. Okay, John,
Deborah and Jeremy are you all ready to play? You guys,
We're ready, all right, all right, here we go. John Patrick,
(48:31):
Quinn's Tom Patty of Florida Gainesville. Yeah, I'm not even
a Florida Gator. I went to Mississippi State and I
knew that. All right. Well, Anthony, what does you win, John?
You win lots of love and good energy. Oh thank you. Well,
I will take it and run with it, all right.
ABC seven meteorologist John Patrick, Debor Javelin of Notre Dame,
and DJ Anthony Valadez. Thank you all so much, Thank you,
(48:55):
and thank you very much. We're gonna be live from Casey.
You are in Kansas City, Missouri next week, asking you
what is an area where you disagree with the political
party you affiliate with? Our number eight four four four Middle.
We're also at listen to the Middle dot com. If
you love the show, tell your public radio stations, subscribe
to our podcast, The Middle of Jeremy Hobson. This is
(49:15):
brought to you by Longknick Media, produced by Alex Ashlock,
John Bart, Sam Burmas, does Cci, Fatope, Lisa Napoli, and
Harrison Patino. Our technical director is Richard chin Qui here
at w GCU. Thanks also to Kevin Trueblood, Jared Gonzalez,
Amy Schumacher, and Corey Lewis. Our theme music composed by
Andrew Haigue, our partner w I L L, Jason Kroft,
and Lily Duncanson. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to you next
(49:38):
Wednesday from Kansas City.
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson Live this evening
from WGCU in Fort Myers, Florida. Now this is our
second show, but just like in our first show last week,
DJ Anthony Valadez is with us. He is our house DJ.
Hi Anthony, Hey Jeremy. How's it going. It's going very well,
and we have a few things to talk about. First
of all, for the listeners who are new to this show,
(00:26):
what we're trying to do is bring voices from the
vast middle of the country into the national conversation. People
who live in the middle are so important in our politics,
but are so often ignored by the media. Now, last
week we were in my hometown of Urbana, Illinois. We
were taking your calls about the most important issue to
you heading into the election, and our phones were absolutely
(00:48):
jammed Anthony the entire time. I just want to listen
to a few of the voicemails that we received during
the show. Hi, Jeremy, my name is Jeff. I'm from Cincinnati, Ohio. Hi,
it's Julia Walters. I'm in Virginia. This is Grant in Iowa. Hello,
my name is DJ. I am in Missouri. Hi, my
(01:10):
name is Lisa Becker. I am in O B G
N DOT in Denver, Colorado. HI. My name is madel
and Kelly. I live in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and my
number one issue for the election this year is climate change,
and relative to the election, my biggest concern to the inflation.
I'm very concerned, of course about reproductive freedom, and I'm
(01:34):
a social and fiscal conservative, but my primary issue this
November is democracy. Thanks for the conversation. So many calls, Anthony,
and if you can't get through at eight four four
Middle because the line are jammed, just leave a message
for us. We're listening to them all. But let's get
back to the middle now. There is no doubt that Urbana, Illinois,
(01:57):
where we were last week, my hometown, is in the
middle of the country. There's no doubt that Kansas City,
where we're going to be next week, is in the
middle of the country. But some people have been asking me,
wait a minute, Fort Myers, Florida, that is not the middle. Now.
I don't know if you've been to this part of
the country, but let me give you a little geography.
Fort Myers is actually due south of Ohio. In fact,
I seventy five goes all the way from Cincinnati down
(02:19):
to Fort Myers, and perhaps as a result, there are
a lot of Midwesterners here, retirees, vacationers, but also this
is a booming part of the country. Fort Myers was
actually one of the fifteen fastest growing cities in America
in the last census, and more people moved here from
Illinois than from any other state in the last few years.
But most importantly, Anthony, to the point of this show,
(02:41):
we are trying to elevate the voices of Americans who
are often left out of our national media. Now, there's
one more thing we should say. It has been less
than a month since Hurricane Ian slammed into this part
of the country, one of the deadliest storms ever to
hit Florida. Thankfully, this radio station where we're broadcasting tonight
is a fortress and was actually able to house some
(03:02):
of the other media organizations in this area during the hurricane.
But the cleanup continues, and we want to thank our
friends at WGCU for hosting us given the circumstances. Okay,
here's what we're asking tonight. How is climate change affecting
your community and what do you think elected officials should
do about it. Anthony, what is our number? Well, the
(03:23):
number is eight four four four Middle once again, that's
eight four four four six four three three five three.
Thank you, Anthony. And remember, as we have this conversation,
I want to hear from you, whatever your point of view,
there is no condescension here. We are going to have
respect for one another and a civil conversation even when
we disagree. Let me bring in our guests tonight. We've
got ABC seven Chief Meteorologist John Patrick, who has been
(03:45):
doing the weather here in Southwest Florida since two thousand five. John,
it's been a long time, yeah, And was this storm
Hurricane Ian the most powerful that you've ever covered here?
It is definitely the biggest and most powerful that i've here.
I was here, I came here in oh five. We
had Hurricane Wilma that year that hit near Marco Island,
(04:05):
Cape Romano. And then we had Hurricane Irma just five
years ago, and that one was a terrible storm that
also came on shore on Marco Island. We had, of course, Ian,
which took an eerily similar path to Hurricane Charlie back
in two thousand four. Hurricane Charlie was a Category four,
(04:26):
but the size of that storm was much smaller than Ian.
So with this storm, we had more widespread damage than
we did with Charlie. And you could see it even
now as you drive around to certain areas here. There's
debris on the sides of the roads, and many people,
including some that we've met in the last several days,
(04:48):
have lost their homes or everything that they've owned has
been destroyed. So John, thank you for being here. Deborah
Javelin is our other guest today from South Bend, Indiana,
professor political science at Notre Dame, who has a special
focus on climate change. Tell us a little bit about that. Deborah, Hi, Hi, everyone,
Thanks for having me in the politics of climate change. Actually,
(05:13):
and so I look at the recent devastation in Florida
through a political lens, and I was really interested in
jeremy your opening where you said that many of the
people who moved to Fort Myers came from the Midwest.
I think they're going in the wrong direction. I think
that we need to have a national conversation about where
people live and where is safe to live, especially in
(05:35):
this time of rebuilding. We're about to pour tremendous resources
into infrastructure. Are we going to do the very same
thing that got us into this mess in the first place,
or are we going to have sort of a big rethink,
a big national conversation about safe locations in a changing climate. Well,
(05:56):
I'm sure that our listeners are going to have some
thoughts on that. Let's go to one of the callers
that has come in and our number again, eight four
four middle. Haley is in Fort Myers, right here in
southwest Florida. Haley, I don't have to ask you how
how climate change is affecting you, but do you attribute
the hurricane that just hit to being stronger because of
(06:19):
climate change? Or what did you want to talk about?
I'm not a scientist evidence that they've presented, so yes,
I agree that it's due to you know, the impact
of our behavior as humans that is causing the changes
(06:40):
in the climate causing these big hurricanes. Did you see
damage because of hurricanean not personally? Not personally? What do
you think the government ought to do, given that you
believe that humans are making climate change worse than are
causing climate change. Well, one thing is to contribute towards
(07:02):
education about these things and reaching to people who are
maybe unable to be educated on this and bring up,
you know, awareness. What do you think, Haley, about what
Deborah Javelin just said about how people that are moving
(07:26):
from let's say the Midwest to Florida are moving in
the wrong direction, that people shouldn't be locating in areas
where they're at such risk from major hurricanes. Well, there's
risks everywhere, so I don't agree with that thought, Haley.
Thank you for your called Deborah Javelin. What about that
(07:47):
the fact that there is risk everywhere. People face risks
of wildfires in California, people face risks of hurricanes here,
tornadoes in the Midwest. What about that? This is not wrong.
Climate change poses risks everywhere it is. It's a global phenomenon.
There are relatively better and worse spaces to live. So
(08:09):
given sea level rise, for example, we know that coastal
living is unsustainable. There are places where the scientists from
from all different disciplines climate scientists, oceanographers are projecting levels
of that the sea will rise that will make current
(08:30):
coastal areas unlivable. That may be similar with the wildfire
areas in the in the West, but they are relatively speaking,
there are safer places here in the Midwest. Sure, we
will get extreme weather. We might get inland flooding, agriculture
may occasionally suffer from droughts. But the current multi billion
(08:51):
dollar devastation that we are seeing, that's primarily happening where
you are, right. So the costliest disaster in US history
are happening from Katrina and Harvey and Maria and Sandy
and Ida. You're not going to find that level of
devastation in the upper Midwest. Yeah, Deborah, let me ask
(09:15):
Let me ask John Patrick about that, because I imagine
a lot of your viewers would not agree that they
shouldn't be living here in Florida. I mean, we're living
in paradise, as everybody says. You know, we live where
you vacation. And I know that over the past several years,
especially after Hurricane Andrew, the building codes here in Florida
have gotten a lot stricter than they used to be,
(09:36):
and a lot of the structures that were annihilated in
Hurricane Ian were older buildings. Five years ago, when we
had Hurricane Irma, the storm surge in the town in
Collier County just south of here, Everglade City, they had
about nine feet of storm surge, and they had about
that again with Hurricane Ian. They were just about finished
(09:59):
with the rebuilding process five years later down there after
Hurricane Irma. And one of the things that a lot
of the homes down there had to be revised as
far as how they were built. They had to elevate them.
So the first floor of living area is what would
normally be the second floor. So you see a lot
of these houses that are on stilts. Now you'll have
(10:20):
like a garage or a storage on that first level
or whatever, but they are elevated as far as the
living area, so they're able to handle storm surge better
than they used to. I just want to get to
one call quickly before we go to break here. Jay
in Minneapolis, let's hear from you. What do you have
to say? Yeah, I guess I just said two things
(10:43):
is I've kind of watched everything on folds over the
last kind of decade. I think that a lot of
the policies that have been pushed forth have exacerbated inflation
and also kind of led to worse farming practices that
(11:04):
do create a lot of over reliance on water and
the use of that such as ethanol. And I think
that I think that we're leading a lot of a
lot of short term policies that exacerbate everything into the future,
(11:25):
when when all of this should have been done much
so much could have been done ten years ago. Right,
So we keep trying to put band aids and patches
on things. But all of these policies and all these
building codes are just done after the fact, and and
(11:46):
it just keeps leading to more and more and more,
and it just it just builds up. So can we
try to address right A band aid approach is what's
upsetting you on the on this issue. Jay, Thank you
very much for your call Again. Our number is eight
four four four Middle. You can also reach out to
us at Listen to the Middle dot com and we'll
(12:08):
be right back in a moment. If you're just tuning
in live, I'm Jeremy Hobson. This is The Middle. We
are a new national call and show focused on bringing
voices from the middle of the country into the national conversation.
(12:30):
By the way, if you miss any of the show
or you want to hear more, you can check out
our podcast The Middle with Jeremy Hobson wherever you get
your podcasts. And if you can't find it. You can
go to listen to the Middle dot com. We'll link
you to it there. My guest tonight Notre Dame Professor
Debrah Javelin and meteorologist John Patrick of ABC seven here
on the Florida Gulf Coast. We're asking you about climate change,
how it's affecting you, where you live, and what you
(12:52):
want the government to do about it. Eight four four
four Middle is our number. Let's go to Tim, who
is in southeast Michigan. Hello Tim, Hello, Hi, Hi, tell us,
how is climate change affecting you? What do you want
the US government to do about it? Well? I want
us to get on board the nuclear renaissance because our
(13:18):
portion of electric energy from the nuclear fission is declining
because we're retiring our reactor fleet and we have only
two reactors now under construction. I think the nuclear fission well,
nuclear fission provides reliable, around the clock electric power, unlike
certain renewable technologies I could mention. And because of that feature,
(13:38):
I believe the nuclear dominance for energy production is inevitable,
and the sooner humanity gets on board, the less profound
will be the damage to Earth's ecosphere, which I keep
an eye on because I am always trying to transplant
native specs to displace the invasive species in my yard.
(13:59):
So I watch this kind of carefully, and I think
that a nuclear renaissance is going to occur, and is
even now beginning. But our country is not on board. Well, well,
it liked a contrast at with China. Well and actually
at this moment, though we do have more nuclear actors
in operation than China. We have the most in the
entire world, although it's less than it was ten years
(14:21):
ago in this country. Are you worried at all, tim
about what happened in Japan with Fukushima or the nuclear
disasters that have happened. Does that scare you away from
nuclear at all? It does not, why because first, well,
or to begin on that, that was a outrageously miserable,
(14:44):
incompetent decision to put the generating equipment underneath the ground
level in abasement. Were right anyway? Setting that aside, they
should never have been building in that floodplaine for tsunami
location anyway, as they were worn through the centuries. By
(15:06):
the way, not a single person was injured or killed
by nuclear radiation at Fukushima. Many people died in the evacuation,
but none from radiation. Okay, so Tim, you're not worried
about about that. Let me go to Deborah Javelin our
guests on what you're bringing up, because actually we've gotten
some messages online about nuclear as well. Deborah, what about that?
(15:29):
This is obviously a controversial topic. Otherwise we'd probably have
gone all nuclear at this point. But what do you
think about the people that say that's the way out
of the climate crisis. I don't think concerned about time lines.
I view us as any climate emergency. I think the
climate emergency has arrived, and I think that we needed
to be addressing climate change yesterday. And I think that
(15:54):
most people who are gung ho about nuclear underestimate the
time frame that it would take to to to turn
everything into nuclear to power our economy by nuclear energy,
particularly because there is not public support for doing so.
So you can you can complain about that, but that's
(16:16):
the reality in our country. Some of us of good
you know, will will defend that and say here's my
reasons for not supporting nuclear. I will just say, just
as an objective reporting of the status of public opinion,
you're not going to get that support, which means you're
not going to get that kind of political support in
our legislature, So for me, it's kind of a non starter.
(16:39):
And that's not even getting into the cost of nuclear
which is sorbitant. So where all those who are all
that fund is going to come from. By the time
we could get agreement on that, the climate emergency has
punched just even deeper and we're going to be seeing
Ian's you know, left and right. So I think that
we have to look for our solutions more in more
(17:02):
in the in the very immediate future. Let's go to Justin,
who's calling from Philadelphia. Justin, you're lucky because you're the
first call from a coastal city that has been on
this show. I said that we're not shutting out the
coasts all together, so here you are example of that. Justin,
Welcome to the Middle. Thank you. Tell us what I
(17:25):
was trying to change effect a little ahead. Yeah, I
just wanted to speak a little bit to you know,
kind of how the conversation gets you know, narrated or
framed at least, you know, by the government. And I
really feel, you know, sometimes talking about it as this
big global issue is just too abstract, you know, in
(17:46):
big for the everyday person. And you know what I'm
interested in how my local, you know, county level, state
level politicians can show me you know, you know, climate
change action that just you know directly, you know, impacts me,
and the way they can kind of frame that change
(18:06):
around you know, everyday life. You know, So rather than
talking about is this big global challenge, you know, I
want to see my local politicians talking about, you know,
how to get me you know, more local food, or
how to give me access to that, or you know,
how to create healthier air, or you know, how to
(18:27):
you know, address human health issues. You know, our energy
and dependence and all of these things come from reducing
our carbon footprint. But you know, we can think about
them as localized issues that improve our quality of life.
And I think that could be more effective than thinking
about as this abstract, you know, enormous global challenge. Let
(18:47):
me let me take that to John Patrick, our guest.
At John You're you're here in southwest Florida. You just
dealt with Hurricane in. I wonder what you think about
what Justin just said right there that maybe bring it
to the local level makes more sense to get people
to wrap their heads around what needs to be done well.
For example, here in southwest Florida, we've been talking about
(19:09):
the effects of climate change on our newscast for a
long time, and one of the ways that we have
tied it in to the local area is the economy.
So much of our economy relies on tourism and fishing
and the like, and with climate change, temperatures are on
(19:30):
the rise. Mostly as we get those higher temperatures when
we get our sea breeze thunderstorms, for example, in the
afternoon during the summertime, we've been noticing more heavy rain
events out of those thunderstorms. I mean some afternoons we'll
get four five six inches of rain out of a thunderstorm,
and all that water runs through the ground, and at
(19:53):
certain times of the year we've got fertilizer in the
ground as well, and all that gets shoved into our
rivers and estuaries is runoff, and that gives you things
like blue green algae, which can result in fish kills,
which if you've ever been to the beach when there's
a fish kill there, it's not pretty, it doesn't smell pretty.
There's a real concern about that right now, right because
(20:15):
of all the rain that came from Hurricane In and
after the same thing happened after Hurricane Irma. The years
after Hurricane Irma, we had some pretty bad algae and
red tide and fish kills and all that. And that's
the concern now after Ian, is that we're going to
see all that again with all that heavy rain that
we had. You know, there there were parts of just
(20:37):
north of here in sarah Sota County they got almost
a foot and a half of rain and that wasn't
even storm surge or anything. That was just rain from
the hurricane Deborrah Javelin. What do you think about what
Justin was bringing up there, that maybe talking about you know,
the IPCC and the International Climate Action and all of
that stuff is a little too abstract and that we
(20:58):
should be focusing it more local. I think it's a
great I'm actually curious who are the politicians talking about
the IBCC even in the abstract. So I guess I
knew the bigger problem as the climate emergency is not
being treated as an emergency, either abstractly or locally, and
(21:19):
that instead we're talking about higher gas prices, and we
talk about higher gas prices as if that's some separate
issue and worthy of complaint, and we can have it all.
We want our gas prices to be low and fight
uh take climate action at the same time, and we
don't have political leaders who are translating this story well.
(21:45):
So I agree with the caller that that there's not
a good that that the climate situation is not being
explained well via politicians. But I think that partly we
constituents are to blame. I mean, we we are asking
for things from our political leaders that are undeliverable. You
can't have it both ways. You can't keep using cheap
(22:07):
fossil fuels and try to mitigate against climate change. Let's
take a listen to some of the calls that have
come in. Because some people aren't able to get through
they go to the voicemail. So our great producer puts
together a quick bontage and I want to listen to
it right now. Some of the people that have called
and left messages for us about how climate change is
(22:27):
change is impacting them. Oh Dennis and two rivers Wisconsin.
And I figure, if people don't believe climate change is
really happening, or if it's not really happening because of
human interaction or human actions. We should still stop putting
so much pollution out because it's just going to hurt us. Hey, well, also,
(22:48):
I'm in Denler. Well I'm actually at a meat Colorado.
They want to really push our electric cars. I admit
I'm a proud owner when I love it. You know,
we really want to expand the use of these electric cars.
Why don't we have charging stations as the rest of yours,
at least in the future. Clients, this is Joanne Dale
guard in to come see Michigan. Other than increasingly frequent
(23:08):
episodes of wonky weather, climate change has not affected me greatly,
not like people on in coastal regions. What I'd like
to see the government do about it is, first of all,
get the EPA, a good set of dentures to make
up for all the teeth that have been knocked or
yanked out of it. Thank you for listening. A good
(23:29):
set of dentures. I love that. Let's go to Utah.
Carol is online five Carol in Utah. Hello, Hi, how
are you are you guys doing tonight? We're doing great?
And tell us how climate change is impacting you in
your community? Sure so, I mean I've lived in Utah
in my whole life. So I've watched the Great Salt
(23:50):
Lakes slowly received and it's gotten pretty significant, and we've
seen so much less no fall, we've had pretty significant droughts.
So that's been some thing, you know, when you're thinking
about I'm in, you know, my approaching my late twenties,
thinking about having kids, having a family, intimidating, thinking about
what's happening around me. Would you actually not have kids
(24:11):
because of the threat of climate change? Carol? I was
in can you hear me? I can hear you a
little bit? Yet? Would you would you not have kids
because of the threat of climate change? I think we
lost Carol there. Let's let's let's uh well, actually, let
(24:34):
me ask you about that, Deborah Javelin, because you look
at sort of the risks that people decide to take.
Have you heard about that, people deciding they don't want
to have children because they're worried about the future of
the planet. My students talk about it. Yeah, My students
talk about it all the time, not as a firm decision,
but as a considerations, particularly the ones who are aware
(24:57):
that if everyone lived as Americans live, we would need two, three,
four planets and so they ponder their consumerism and whether
it is moral or ethical to how do you live
responsibly on this planet? So I don't know that they
have answers, but it's definitely a discussion among young people.
(25:19):
John Patrick, do you ever hear that. I have not
heard that as far as people considering whether or not
to have children because of climate change, but it's you know,
I was just sitting here listening to all this, and
it's it's certainly something to think about. You know, I've
got two nieces. One is a freshman in college and
the other one is sixteen right now, and I was
just thinking this. You know, what is what kind of
(25:39):
planet are we're going to have twenty thirty forty years
from now, you know, as far as are we going
to have these stronger hurricanes or we're going to have
drafts and all that goes along with that. Let's go
to another call. Michael Collins is calling in from Farmington Hill, Michigan. Michael,
Welcome to the show. Hello, Hi, What did you want
(26:03):
to talk about? Michael? I wanted to just say that
renewables plus storage is now the lowest cost energy in
the world and cost less than fossil or nuclear, So
the storage makes renewables twenty four hours like baseloads, and
(26:26):
investing in storage makes more sense than expensive nuclear or
even fossil. We can keep the fossil and let it
attrition out and age out. Rocky Mountain Institute has already
discussed as years ago. It's the most sensible approach because
you don't have to keep saying climate change this or
climate change that. It happens to be the lowest cost
(26:48):
for even those who don't believe climate change exists. Have
you gone solar yourself, Michael, No, because I rent, but
I live part of the year in California and I
charge my car from nine to three because of the
Electricity maps dot com that shows when usage is highest
(27:11):
and nine am to three pm it's mostly solar and
you can see that on the California Grids app or
Electricity maps dot Com. And I charge at night when
the when the afternoon peak is over. So being a
good grid citizen is something that host ev owners are
already doing. And adding vehicle to grid storage, vehicle to
(27:36):
home storage, mechanical batteries, chemical batteries, thermal batteries is going
to be the future and will be the shock absorbers
that the grid needs wind and solar when it's not needed,
and releases it is also the low loss DC lines
(27:58):
that the federal government is proposing to take renewables from
where they are generated in the unpopulated areas and transport
them to where the population centers are that don't necessarily
have renewable energy is going to help levelize that as well,
so we can keep the existing fossil keep the existing
nuclear attrition, will allow it to age out and provide
(28:20):
still in power, and we can depend primarily on renewables
plus storage. All right, well, Michael, thank you for your call.
I actually want to ask you, John Patrick, because we
are in the Sunshine State here in Florida. I haven't
seen given that as much solar electricity on the top
of roofs as I would have expected. We're kind of
(28:41):
headed in that direction. I know. Over the past I
would say at least five years, there's been more of
a push to go solar, and there's been a lot
more just me personally at my house, there have been
a lot more door to door salespeople with solar. We
actually have the first solar city in the entire country
here in southwest Florida. It's just to the north of
(29:03):
where we're sitting in Fort Myers. It's called Babcock Ranch,
and it's an entire city that has solar power. They
have these gigantic solar power farms and they were one
of the areas during the hurricane that did not lose
power because it's all solar. Devior Javelin. I gotta say,
I have solar, and I love my solar, and it
immediately on day one made my electricity bill lower than
(29:26):
it would have been even with the payment for the
solar panels. But the incentives are really getting a lot
better than they used to be for solo across the country. Yeah,
and I guess we also should be applauding the Inflation
Reduction Act and amazing, what is it, three hundred and
sixty nine billion dollars finally devoted to climate change. So
(29:48):
it took us a really long time to get here,
but we did get here, and so those incentives could
only be improving. And I guess I would just caution
that the main obstacle is the fossil fuel industry, which
continues to to pump our campaign finance system full of
of you know, they're they're the the obstruction ers. The
(30:10):
obstruction is there. They're the uh, the reason that we
are still facing challenges going going fully to renewable. We're
getting some comments online at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Paula and Milwaukee says her region is not ready for
the coming influx of climate refugees. Kate tweets from Missouri.
I'm very concerned about the warming of the oceans. And
(30:33):
we'll be right back in a moment. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. We are live from WGCU in Fort Myers, Florida,
a place that less than a month ago was devastated
by Hurricane Ian, one of the strongest hurricanes ever to
(30:56):
hit Florida. And I'm joined this evening by John Patrick,
a meteorologists Chief meteorologists at ABC seven here on the
Florida Gulf Coast, and Notre Dame political science professor Deborah Javelin,
who also focuses on climate change. Our number is eight
four four Middle. Let's go to another call. This is
Tyler in Salt Lake City. Tyler, we just heard a
(31:18):
little bit about the Salt Lake drying up. But tell
us what are you seeing that are you seeing evidence
of that yourself as well. Oh yeah, definitely, we are
getting toxic dust storms from all the industrial waste that
settled into the bed and now it's getting picked up.
But I think more to what I wanted to maybe
try to direct is I like the investment in nuclear,
(31:41):
but maybe we could search for an alternative to our
natural gas because we use a lot of that in
the winter time. We obviously smell the methane and linking
out of our homes when we're walking by the gas pipe.
So maybe looking into geothermal would be a viable option,
because I know we're increasing our solar but you know
when the snow covers up, the solar panels well in
(32:06):
natural gas. By the way, the US is the leader
among the natural gas producers in the world. That's set
an all time high for natural gas production. In the
year twenty twenty one, twenty three percent of global natural
gas production came from the US, ahead of Russia and
even the Middle East. But that doesn't make you happy, Tyler.
(32:30):
I mean, I understand the use for it and the
benefits it has versus gaspoline, but for regions, mountaineers regions
specifically where our winters get really really cold. Obviously, it
gets to be very worrisome because we get the inversions
that get over our basin areas, not just in the winter,
(32:53):
but in the summertime. So we are facing a you know,
one two punch of record ninety A heat waves in
our summer times, and obviously it's hurting our loans, it's
causing more cases of bathment, and a lot of folks
who are already sensitive. Deborh Javelin, We've actually heard from
(33:13):
several people online about the issue the health issues that
are caused by climate change that in fact, you know,
maybe there should be less focus on the rising sea
levels and more on the things that are hurting us directly,
that are the pollution that is hurting us. What do
you think about that? I guess so we're just we're
(33:35):
talking about messaging. Does that what you mean? What sure?
What would get it to resonate more? I actually don't know,
and I've heard that that's that's been around for quite
some time. Actually, like if you could just if you
could just convince people to be compared to care about
(33:55):
local pollution, then maybe they would start caring more about
climate change. But I still return to this idea that
that people have to be willing to sacrifice, and that
for me, the bigger issue is that people like their
lifestyles and even the ones, even the ones you call
in and say I'm really concerned and I really want
(34:15):
to do something about climate change. The second that you
mentioned a slight inconvenience, a slight change that they might
need to make, then all of a sudden you get
pushed back. So I think that that for me, is
a bigger hurdle than than than just trying to tweak
the messaging. That's Seba Javelin, a professor of political science
(34:36):
at Notre Dame. Let's go to another call from this area.
Dan in Marco Island is on the line. Dan, were
you impacted by the by the hurricane good evening? Yes,
we were. We had kind of most form surge road
and the island and it was it was frightening and
(35:01):
it was a mythical beast, as we say down here,
because we've we've heard about the storm surge, but we've
never seen that. We finally did. So what do you
what do you want the government to do about climate
change or do you attribute the storm to climate change? Well?
I think you know, I've heard of recent commentary that
(35:25):
you know, storms seemed to be getting stronger, and you know,
I don't agree with that, and the teams like we've
had a few pretty strong storms in the last five
years in southwest Florida. But you know, spending money on
climate change how to these in my opinions, thinkers with
you know, how effective it's going to be if no
(35:46):
one else, you know, other economies India, China, Russia aren't
playing by our rules? Are the taxes we're going to pay?
And the costs were in a page have this uh
green you know environmental eLife in our country. They making
(36:07):
a cripple our economy and needs a bigger problems. So
I don't I don't know if spending money out of
climate changing necessarily on this, right Dan, thank you for
your call. John Patrick. Let me go to you on that,
because this is you know, this is an attitude I
(36:28):
think in this part of Florida especially you probably hear
a lot of which is should we be hurting our
economy if that's what it's going to do to spend
more money to deal with rising sea levels with climate change,
especially if and we saw this today in a you know,
international climate reporting a lot of other countries are not
(36:50):
spending what they've said they're going to spend to deal
with climate change. It's definitely a global solution. You know,
how do you get all these countries on board to
combat this That I can't answer you, but we're seeing
the effects of it and right now it's ruining our economy.
I mean, we can't have tourists on our beaches. Boats
(37:11):
can't go out there fishing because we've got all the
debris from the storm, including oil and gas and whatever
leaks out. Now weeks later, you can't go into you
can't go onto the beaches. Yes, there's advisories on along
our beaches to stay out of the water because of
all the contaminants that are in it. I mean, we
aired the story last night, I think it was it
(37:32):
was either last night or two nights ago of during
the storm, porta potties literally flying during the storm ending
up in the rivers. So you've got you know, it's
in porta potties. You've got that in the rivers and
in the waterways now too. So there's there's still weeks
later in advisory to not go out of the water
(37:52):
or not to go into the water, I should say,
and it's going to take a while to get all
that cleaned up. Let's go to Barbara, who is in Scottsdale.
I assume Arizona at Barbara, Hello, welcome, Hello, Yes, and
tell us what's on your mind. Two things. First of all,
we have heat that starts at one hundred degrees in
(38:14):
May and it continues through October. It's getting longer and
it's impacting a lot of people. The energy bills are higher. Secondly,
i'd like to to share as a former education professor
when I did study abroad in Italy with students. As
of twenty eighteen, the Ministry of Education in Italy mandated
(38:34):
teaching about climate change and the curriculum for all the children.
We're having challenges with that, and I would like to
see a focus on teaching the aspects of climate change
that are economic and that are impacting health and livelihood.
Thank you, Thank you so much for that call. Debra Javelin.
You are in the education field, so what do you
(38:55):
think about that? Are we not teaching about climate change enough,
especially in the schools? My part to keep offering new classes,
but I would love to link your point with the
point of the former coller where the suggestion was that
that we either have to address the environment or address
(39:17):
the economy. Anybody who takes classes on at the intersection
of sustainability and climate change and economics will tell you
that addressing climate change can be a win win, It
can be a great thing for the account. There are
all these opportunities out there. There are growth fields in
in renewables for example, and energy efficiency and new technologies.
(39:41):
So yes, I totally agree with a caller that we
should be teaching climate change in schools. I think we're
increasingly doing that, but not even just the basics of
how the climate is changing, but really what to do
in a in a changing climate, and showing our students
the kind of world that they could live in and
(40:03):
where they could make contributions. Let's go to Shannon in Beaufort,
South Carolina, a place I know how to pronounce because
I've been there. Shannon, and so welcome to the show
and tell us. Tell us what's on your mind about
climate change in your community. A lot of fun I've
mentioned the idea of housing developments and housing developments, how
(40:26):
they clear guide all of the trees before they build
the houses and as the result, all of those houses
are supposed to direct sunlight in the summer, and of
course they're forced these more air conditions to compensate of that.
So what's what's what do you think that the government
ought to do well? I mean, I guess there's a
(40:46):
question of sort of the economic concept of externalities. That
are the companies that are building these houses. They're not
having to pay for those direct costs, the air conditioning costs,
but they're definitely not having to pay for the indirect
calls to the society related to more energy requirements. So
(41:07):
I guess you could sort of make an argument that
you know, governmental, local, or stake and can sort of
have a legitimate reason to talk about at least regulating
these companies buildings their building projects, like the fact that
it's inevitable that they're going to lead to a horror. Uh.
(41:28):
We we've got it there, Shannon, Uh. And we're getting
a we're really getting a good view at John Patrick,
at the wide range of phone connections tonight. I guess
not many people make voice calls anymore, but we're hearing
all kinds of different, different kinds of them. Deborah Javelin.
Though I do know that you have focused some of
your research on the measures that people take in the
(41:53):
houses that they live in to protect them against the elements,
against the weather, against the climate. Yes, this color was
concerned about energy efficiency, but my research has much more
to do with retrofitting for resilience, to to protect against
hurricanes or I don't do wildfire research. But it would
(42:15):
be the same idea that that our homes are should
be our fortresses. Right, And at the beginning of this conversation,
somebody had talked about building codes, which which are fantastic
when they are enacted and when they are implemented, But
that isn't true for a lot of the Atlantic and
(42:35):
Gulf Coast states, and even in the places where the
building codes currently are rigorous, they only apply to new construction,
which in most that's that's about less than ten percent
of the houses that are that are in existence or
will be in existence. So we've got a real problem
on our hands with the ninety something percent of houses
(42:56):
that are neither energy efficient or built to withstand the
disasters that might befall them. And so to the extent
that we need again a big a rethink of what
we do with our properties. We need to think about
retrofitting and perhaps mandating retrofitting if you're going to insist
(43:17):
in living in harm's way, Is it really responsible to
live in a home that you know has openings, doors, windows,
roofs that are not built to current code, and when
your home gets destroyed, you're probably not insured. You probably
most most people, even the ones who should be helped
(43:38):
should have flood insurance, don't have flood insurance. Women. The
state is now stepping into provide insurance for wind damage. Oh,
this is incredibly unsustainable. So for people who want to
dig in their heels and say that this is where
I want to live, okay, but are you willing to
incur the risk? So when something happens the next time,
(44:00):
who pays the cost? We need to have a conversation
about that. I'm not saying I necessarily have an answer,
but I am saying that I think that we only
have this conversation after the fact, when everybody's got their
hand out and saying, well, of course I'm a victim.
Now of course you should help me. And I do
sympathize with people who are in that plight, but we
know what's going to happen again, and again and again.
(44:21):
So if we can anticipate this, we should be taking
proactive measures. Let's go to Barbara in Chicago, Illinois. Barbara,
welcome and tell us what's on your mind. Well, I
am wondering about how much war, the cause of war,
the destruction of war, the destruction of property and everything
(44:44):
helps contributing to climate change. All right, what makes you
focus on that as as a cause of climate change? Pardon?
Why am I focusing on that? Yeah? Why? Why? Why
are you focused on wars as as and its impact
(45:05):
on climate change? Are just curious? Well, I've read about
the impact of war on climate, on destruct environmental destruction
and and contributing to climate change, and it's just so
pervasive in our in our society. Uh, Barbara, thank you
(45:31):
for that, called Deva Javelin. I guess I'll go to
you on that, not to our meteorologist John Patrick, but
Deva you your thoughts on what Barbara has to say there.
Barbara's right, war is incredibly carbon emitting, and what we're
the destruction that we're seeing in Ukraine right now, for example,
is doing in addition to harming humans, it's harming the planet.
I hope that peace comes to the people of Ukraine soon,
(45:53):
and when it does, they will ask to rebuild, and
they will have the right to to ask for that,
and the re building too will be carbon emitting. So
this we just keep getting back to this notion of
not having a grand plan or for how we rebuild,
whether it's rebuilding after war, rebuilding after hurricane. But among
(46:14):
the many reasons to not want war, one of them
would certainly be its impact on our climate. Let me
just finally come back to you, John Patrick. You know
we're here in Fort Myers. You've just been through a
major hurricane. Do people here feel like now that was
a somebody called it a five hundred years storm? Is
it a five hundred yearstorm? Iran, I wouldn't say a
(46:38):
five hundred year storm. I mean we've had Andrew, We've
had Michael. You know, those are all very catastrophic storms
as well. I mean for southwest Florida. Ian was the
worst for us, you know, in modern times, partially because
we're built up much more now than we were back
even you know, back a half a century or a
century ago, and so now when a storm comes through,
(46:59):
you're going to have much more damage. And unfortunately, like
we saw here much more loss of life just because
people more people are living here than they used to
in prior years. So do people feel like they just
got through the really bad one and they're going to
have a little while before another one, or that the
climate has changed and now they're going to be dealing
with this every couple of years. Yeah, you always hope
(47:22):
that you don't have one for a long time. I mean,
we went from Hurricane Donna back in nineteen sixty. That
one was a direct hit on Marco Island, and we
really went, if memory serves me, we went all the
way to Hurricane Charlie in two thousand and four before
we had another really catastrophic direct hit here in southwest Florida.
(47:43):
Now since Charlie, then we had Wilma, then we had Irma,
and now we've had Ian. Part of that is luck,
but you know, part of that is climate change with
these stronger storms nowadays. Two. All right, well we have
time for one more thing here. And it's the fun part.
I guess the whole show has been fun. But let's
now we've got Anthony Valadez. So Anthony, tell us what's
going on. Well, it's not just fun, it's the infamous
(48:05):
needle drop. Here's what we are going to do. I'm
sitting in front of a turntable and I broke out
this special record from Gainesville, Florida's very own, and I'm
going to place the needle in the middle of the record.
And you have to tell me who this artist is. Okay, John,
Deborah and Jeremy are you all ready to play? You guys,
We're ready, all right, all right, here we go. John Patrick,
(48:31):
Quinn's Tom Patty of Florida Gainesville. Yeah, I'm not even
a Florida Gator. I went to Mississippi State and I
knew that. All right. Well, Anthony, what does you win, John?
You win lots of love and good energy. Oh thank you. Well,
I will take it and run with it, all right.
ABC seven meteorologist John Patrick, Debor Javelin of Notre Dame,
and DJ Anthony Valadez. Thank you all so much, Thank you,
(48:55):
and thank you very much. We're gonna be live from Casey.
You are in Kansas City, Missouri next week, asking you
what is an area where you disagree with the political
party you affiliate with? Our number eight four four four Middle.
We're also at listen to the Middle dot com. If
you love the show, tell your public radio stations, subscribe
to our podcast, The Middle of Jeremy Hobson. This is
(49:15):
brought to you by Longknick Media, produced by Alex Ashlock,
John Bart, Sam Burmas, does Cci, Fatope, Lisa Napoli, and
Harrison Patino. Our technical director is Richard chin Qui here
at w GCU. Thanks also to Kevin Trueblood, Jared Gonzalez,
Amy Schumacher, and Corey Lewis. Our theme music composed by
Andrew Haigue, our partner w I L L, Jason Kroft,
and Lily Duncanson. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to you next
(49:38):
Wednesday from Kansas City.
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