April 2, 2024 • 26 mins
When faced with the daunting task of guiding her non-English speaking parents through the complexities of a new country, Ming Shelby learned early on that courage isn't just an abstract concept, but a muscle we can all develop. This very lesson fuels her mission today, which she passionately shares with us, to embolden educators with the bravery to initiate tough conversations, foster authenticity, and lead with kindness in the classroom and beyond. Ming's remarkable journey, from her childhood trials to taking the stage as a TEDx speaker, reminds us all of the transformative power of courage in our lives.
Our discussion with Ming doesn't stop at personal growth; it dives into the practical implications of courageous conversations in reducing educator stress and improving workload management. We're reminded that human connection, afforded by face-to-face interactions, can clear the fog of miscommunication and lighten our collective burden. As we navigate the cultural tapestries of communication styles and embrace the principles of "showing up, being seen, and living brave," Ming encourages us to lead with empathy, challenge with directness, and ultimately, to shape a world where courage is the bedrock of our every interaction.
Ming Shelby is a TEDX speaker, a National Board Certified educator who has dedicated her career to inspiring students, teachers, and administrators through learning experiences. Ming is currently the Director of Professional Learning in the suburbs of Chicago. She believes that courage is the critical ingredient for student transformation. Ming has facilitated workshops for adults and youth in Asia, Australia, Europe, and the United States. She also builds courage beyond the classroom to support kids and adults through her podcast, Courage Up.
Resource mentions:
Radical Candor
Brene Brown
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusiowsky-Borniman and Christine
Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
In this episode we speak with Ming about the
importance of having the courageto get right to the heart of
things, particularly incommunication.
Her pared down pointer is somewise words from Brunet Brown and
Kim Scott.
Ming Shelby is a TEDx speaker,a national board certified
educator, who has dedicated hercareer to inspiring students,
teachers and administratorsthrough learning experiences.
(00:57):
Ming is currently the directorof professional learning in the
suburbs of Chicago.
She believes the courage is thecritical ingredient for student
transformation.
Ming has facilitated workshopsfor adults and youth in Asia,
Australia, Europe and the UnitedStates.
She also builds courage beyondthe classroom to support kids
and adults through her podcastCourage Up.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Welcome to this week's episode of the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
This week we are chatting withMing Shelby and we are super
excited because Ming is such agreat speaker and I just love
hearing her voice.
So welcome to the show, Ming.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to be here withboth of you.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I speaking of voices.
So you and I met on that appClubhouse a couple years ago.
I feel like it was kind of likea COVID thing that started, and
I remember that you would oftenbe in an SEL room with Krista
and then I just always would gointo her room and listen to you
(02:04):
talk about things and you justhave one of those very inviting
voices.
So I like listening to you talk.
So thanks for being here.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Oh, that's so kind, tammy.
You know, we're always our ownworst critics of our voices, so
when I like watch back videos ofmyself or pie, I'm like who is
that?
That can't be me.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I don't sound like that.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Well, other people, yeah, and other people think
very differently, right, exactly, yeah, but that was such a
great space for I don't evenknow if it's still a thing or
not but it was such a greatspace to get to know people and
just talk about.
You know different things, andI know one of the things that
you talk about a lot is courage,which is a really, you know, a
(02:52):
huge topic in any field, but ineducation it can be particularly
hard to be a courageous teacheror a courageous leader.
So can you tell us a bit abouthow you kind of got into that
way of thinking like this iswhat I want to focus on and work
with people, and I want to hearfrom people that are fox ga
[(ensored)] expertise thatpeople cannot workあ lot with,
the begin Location being likewell, neverremere.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah, it's funny because so in 2018, I do a word
of the year like what's yourword?
And so for me, I chose courageand I reference back to 2018
being this year of courage forme.
But when I'm reflecting, mywhole life was these courageous
moments along the way?
So to backtrack back to waywhen I was really little, so my
(03:34):
family came to United Stateswhen I was only six months old
and I, first of all, I can'teven imagine that like traveling
, leaving this country where youknow your family with a six
month old baby, and we justmoved to the States.
And so there are these momentswhere my parents were still
(03:54):
learning English.
My mom was like I feel prettygood conversationally, but I
remember that making doctor'sappointments for the family,
like I would be the one aselementary age student, making
those phone calls, practicingthat courage muscle.
I remember going through thedrive, through my mom would have
me sit in the back, like rightbehind the driver, and I would
(04:17):
be ordering what we wanted forfood.
And so there's like theselittle moments when I'm telling
my husband I'm like, did youever do this?
And he's like no, like, did youever have to?
Like call and do you like no,my mom, you know.
So it's like all those littlemoments led me up to it, and
(04:38):
even things of like speakingChinese when I didn't feel
comfortable when everyone aroundme was speaking English.
So in 2018, I had the word ofcourage.
And of course, the universe islike okay, you want to practice
courage?
Let me just put you in allthese challenging situations,
like let's go for it.
And so I really had to be likeokay, I asked for this, like
(05:03):
what am I going to do when I'min these hard situations, tough
situations?
How do I want to show up?
And one big lesson that Ilearned was it doesn't matter
about what other people think ofme or, you know, whatever else
is happening is that I wanted tomake sure that in these
(05:24):
courageous moments, I showed uptrue to me, while still being
kind to others and holding space.
And so if I was proud of how Iacted or showed up in that
moment, I was like okay, likeI'm slowly building this courage
muscle.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
So yeah, a lot of a lot about risk taking there and
being authentically you andthings like that.
That sounds like it.
That is wrapped up, yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Yeah, totally, and I think too, working with teachers
and being a teacher for manyyears, I think one of the most
courageous things that we can dois stand up to our colleagues.
Often I'm in spaces and I don'tknow if, tammy and Christine,
you can relate to this.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Oh yeah, I'm like, tell me more, tell me more.
I want to hear more about this.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
I remember being a classroom teacher and a
colleague of mine was late everyday and so I would help set up
the classroom.
I would make sure the studentsknew what they were doing,
greeted them, and it was prettyconsistent on how often she
would show up late to work.
(06:33):
And at one point I was like isthe principal going to do
something about this?
And I went to the principal.
You know, a young, naive,20-something year old, is like.
She's always late, like whatare you going to do about this?
And she's like well, have youhad the conversation with her
yet?
I'm like me what?
I'm just her colleague, likethis is not my place to have
(06:56):
that conversation.
And I think we often have thoseconversations in our head like,
oh, it shouldn't be me, like I'mnot the one that can hold her
accountable to this or be havingit.
That seems like a boss's job.
And then now, as I continue onmy leadership journey, I'm like
(07:16):
wait, sometimes the mostpowerful conversations are those
of your colleagues.
To colleagues right, like forme to take ownership of.
I care enough about thisteammate to have this hard
conversation.
I care enough about thesestudents to have this
conversation.
So, looking back on it, thingslike that.
I'm like, oh my gosh, yeah, Ihad a choice in that, like I
(07:40):
totally had power in that moment.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
That is really powerful, actually, yes, and I
think, too, we kind of dismissthis idea that probably your
colleague or any of ourcolleagues, right, when we have
to have a difficult conversationor we're thinking about it,
they would probably rather hearit from us, right, like, rather
than hearing it from your adminor you know whoever the person
(08:07):
in charge is.
But I think that we dismiss howrightful a colleague would be
Like thanks for bringing that tomy attention, or like my
intention is not to be late, butfor some reason I just can't
get myself together, likewhatever the thing is.
And then maybe thatconversation ends up being like
the catalyst for not being lateas often, because you're showing
(08:32):
that you care.
And I think you know we talk alot about relationships on the
podcast and it really does comedown to how we are relating to
the people and how we'reconnecting to each other, to
stay focused on what reallymatters, like why we're teaching
or why we're leading.
(08:52):
So, yeah, that's reallypowerful.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
Tammy, so that resonates so much with me.
So years later I found out froma different colleague that this
colleague, her husband, had somereally severe mental health
issues and so it was hard.
They had a young baby too, so itwas hard for her to get out of
(09:16):
the house because of her familysituation.
And I think back, like what ifI had just said something like
hey, noticing that it's hard foryou to get here on time, like
is there something that I can doto help support you?
And I wonder, if I open thatconversation up in that moment,
like she would have been feltsafe enough to open up to me
(09:39):
Like yeah, I'm going throughsome tough stuff at home.
It's really hard for me to getout of the house.
Like I really appreciate howyou helped my students get
started right away.
That helps me a ton, you know,and I didn't do that, so we
don't.
I'm not friends with thiscolleague, but I do wonder, like
huh, if I chose to becourageous in the moment, to
(10:02):
have that conversation andfinding empathy instead of
judgment, like what ourrelationship might have looked
like in those years of workingtogether.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Something for us all to think about.
I think there.
Do you have any tips for whenwe're dealing with people?
You know teaching is a highstress environment Often.
You know people have so much ontheir plates and you know you
might it might seem like thepeople around you are.
You know just one more straw isgoing to break that camel's
(10:34):
back.
Do you have any words of adviceif we're dealing with people
like that?
But we still want to have thatcourageous conversation, but we
know it could be, you know, thelast thing they need at that
moment.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
Yeah, christine, you bring up such a great point.
I think everyone's working sohard right now, whatever
perspective they have.
I think all the people ineducation are working really
hard right now.
So with the one more thing,everyone's plate is already so
(11:07):
full I can't have thisconversation and this.
And this is just going to sendme over the edge.
I think if we took a step back,having the conversation would
remove another straw.
I don't know if that goes withthe analogy, but sometimes it's
the anticipation leading up tohaving the conversation, or the
(11:30):
buildup of the frustration, orit's all the other stuff, the
gobbledigook, that leads to thatand oftentimes, more often than
not, after having the hardconversation, when you can just
say hey, I know this is going on, I'm thinking it might be
related to this, how do you seeit?
Can you help me understand?
(11:51):
And that open dialogue justkind of eases the tension and in
my experience it's almost likethe bricks have been lifted off
the shoulders and you're likeokay, it feels like the plate is
a little bit more manageable.
It's a little bit moremanageable now, just follow up.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
So I guess what I'm saying, Christine, is just do it
, just do it, and I'm justwondering, just as a quick add
on would you always recommendthat these sorts of things
happen face to face, or do youthink there is a possibility for
it to be in other forms ofcommunication?
Or should we stick to theperson to person, face to face
method?
Speaker 4 (12:31):
I think the pigeon carrier note is probably the
best.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
By a fax.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
I think it depends on your relationship.
I always think, somehow, ifthey can hear your voice,
whether it's face to face, azoom, a phone call, I think
email is the most impersonal andyou can't hear the intonation
Right, like one way you mighttype, it may seem so disarming,
(13:04):
but then when you add a certaintone to it you're like, oh, this
is, this becomes nasty somehow.
And so, yeah, face to face forme is ideal.
And then I think, because it'sso, sometimes it's so hard
having that conversation, so theperson you're talking to can
see like the effort you'reputting in, the courage that it
(13:26):
takes from you to go forth anddo that, and it kind of evens
the playing field, in my opinion.
What do you think, christine?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Do you agree, Christine, in your experience, I
think so because my experience,I feel like, is when it's in an
email or written down, they'rekind of forgetting that there is
a human on the other end ofthat.
It feels like.
So, in those moments of stressor overwhelm or annoyance,
(13:56):
irritation, anger, whatever itis, it's a lot easier to bang
out something than it is to havethat same level of intensity of
face to face, because you can'tignore the person standing in
front of you.
So I think, if you can, if youcan have that face to face
moment.
I know it's tricky in a busyday, but I think it definitely
does help to bridge those, youknow, bridge those issues and
(14:20):
come back to who you are andwhat you're really trying to
achieve.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Yeah, I agree with you.
Yeah, I think we can be alittle bit more human when we're
face-to-face.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Yeah, and just thinking about that too, like
how has you focusing on havingcourageous conversations with
people and then, you know,potentially kind of even
diffusing something that mighthave become something else in an
email thread or whatever?
(14:53):
How has that potentially, orhas it helped other people?
Just kind of stay more focusedthen on what we really need to
do, because we know that we cancheck the email quick and read
it and be like, wow, that's likenot what I want to hear right
now.
But, has that kind of justhelped people stay focused when
(15:17):
you can just focus on like, okay, we're going to talk about this
, rather than let it fester?
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Yeah, I think that's a great point.
Tammy, I'm thinking as you'retalking.
Because I think so?
Because if something's nabbingat the back of you, right, like
your attention's going to besemi-diverted, whether it's
conscious or not, subconscious,like, okay, she's still not here
, like the kids are, and even,let's say, we're planning
(15:47):
together and we're planning thisgreat lesson.
But in the back of my mind Iwas like, well, why doesn't
matter, we're planning this, youmight not be here that day,
right, like these like littlevoices that somehow interject
your voice into the yourconscious.
But if we have the conversationtalking about being on time,
(16:07):
and as we're planning, I couldbe like, okay, I might hear some
things that I might have to getready for both of us.
Like my inner dialogue mightturn a little bit to be more
helpful than to be more judgy.
I think I was more judgy.
Sorry, Tammy, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
No, that's fine and I think naturally we just kind of
go to that place right whereit's a natural thing to make a
judgment, because we don't knowall of the story behind what
people are doing.
But it does make me think abouthow I, in my role right now,
really have to focus on people'spreferences of communication
(16:49):
too, because there are somepeople that respond quickly to a
text and like, thankfully I'min a small school so we have
like just a text read sometimes,but I know that not everybody
reads their email at the sametime.
I can't expect that people likeI don't expect people to read it
during the day, but sometimesif I do need a quick answer, I
(17:10):
can just like go directly tothat person or just shoot a
quick text and be like can youjust let me know, blah, blah,
blah and that person.
I think that alleviates somestress for people, in particular
when they're when you choosethat method of communication
that is their preference,because not everybody likes to
read the email, you know, eventhough it's a thing that we all
(17:32):
have to do.
But just letting them know thatlike I'm recognizing that you
appreciate a text more becauseit's more accessible for you and
you can just answer quickly, Ithink that alleviates a lot of
angst in communication becausethen it's not sitting as this
festering thing like oh, now Ihave to think about like how am
(17:53):
I going to talk to this personabout this thing and whatever.
I know that's where my mindgoes and it's so distracting,
you know it's so distracting andso, like, when we can eliminate
some of those distractions andcommunication, it just becomes
so much easier.
Yeah, what have you learnedabout yourself and others
(18:14):
working on this kind of thing?
Like just knowing that we haveto communicate in this way with
each other?
Speaker 4 (18:21):
I think it's Freud that says when you're young,
you're driven by ego and thenslowly it fades right.
But I think ego comes backafter, like when you're in your
20s I think maybe it's just meLike we don't want to look bad,
we don't want to do it wrong, or, and so I think what I learned
(18:43):
is really like humility andbeing humble and approach it
like there's always more thanone side to a story, and I heard
this trainer once said approachfrom a posture of curiosity
versus a posture of judgment.
(19:03):
And so when I go into whetherit's hard conversations, hard
situations, frustratingsituations, whatnot I try and
I'm not doing this perfectly byany means is try to think like
why might that person act thatway?
Or what are what do they reallywant out of the situation,
(19:27):
instead of going straight tolike oh, they're trying to
sabotage this work, or they'rethey are in it from themselves.
It's so quick to jump to thosenegative stories, so for me it's
about like OK seeing it fromanother person's perspective and
having the humility to do so.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
And if you found that this, you know we've been
talking a lot about courage andcommunication today, but have
you found these ideas aboutcourage connected to any other
areas of your life, Like how youtake on new challenges or
things like that?
Speaker 4 (20:05):
Yeah, I'm trying to.
I'm thinking like parenting.
I have seven year old twins andI don't know.
Every day is a new challengewith that right and this is also
communication to Christina.
It's funny, like when they wereyoung and they did something
that I was like, why did you dothat?
Right.
And like the courage to justshow up and not go off the rail.
(20:28):
Or recently, one of my boysthey're identical twins and it
just showed up that they'restarting to be in competition
with each other, one more thanthe other.
And he's said, well, I'm, I'mthe dumb brother, I'm dumb at
reading, I know.
And I just like, I just brokemy heart because, like you're a
(20:50):
great reader and your brother isa great reader, he, he likes
right.
So I think courage in thatmoment is to like put me aside
and show up for him and sayingthings like thank you for
telling me that, tell me moreRight.
Like just the courage to, toshow up and be in that space
(21:11):
with him.
I think I courage is cantranscend so many different
pieces, right, Whether it's arisk taking move, whether it's a
being quiet, and in myexperience, christine, I'm
thinking back A lot of them arethe conversations I think as
(21:34):
especially.
I don't know if this is true inthe Netherlands or in Hawaii,
but in Midwest we have thisMidwest nice culture where it's
like, oh, we're so nice, andthen all that, that people kind
of tiptoe around each other andnot get to like, okay, listen up
here, I care enough about youto have this conversation, like,
(21:57):
oh yeah, that dress looks greaton you.
And meanwhile you're like, whyis that?
Why is she wearing that?
You know?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's such a yes.
That's a funny thing to bringup, but it's very true, like I
feel like that's very Canadianbecause that's where I'm from
right.
So it's not New Yorker at all,that's you know when it's not
Dutch.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, no, dutch are very, very direct in their
communication style.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Yeah, how does that, christine?
How does that translate withfor you, like as a person who
works with multiple countrypeople, and like when someone's
direct with you, in myexperience we were like, oh,
that was harsh.
I'm like that wasn't reallyharsh, but it feels harsh to
them.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
But do you, I don't know do you feel that too?
Yeah, definitely, and I thinkyou know I'm Australian but I've
lived in, you know, asia forquite a long time as well, and
so to have this sort of verydirect communication style, it
did really shock me, the first,you know, when I first moved
here, for sure.
(23:03):
But I now, I have to say I nowkind of find it quirky and sort
of endearing, and so when peoplesay things that are very like,
might seem very blunt and rude,it kind of makes me giggle now
because it I appreciate it.
It's, you know, it's quite nicefor a change to have people you
know tell you exactly what theythink.
So I enjoy it these days.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Yeah, but maybe it took, it wasn't acquired taste.
Yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
And a lot of like explaining from my Dutch
colleagues as well.
You know like their perspectiveon it and why they think it's
important to speak like that,and I think that hearing their
point of view and theirexperiences helped me understand
where they're coming from.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
At this point in the show Ming we've talked a lot
about a hard subject, actuallyhaving courage and the way we
communicate with people, andI've brought a lot to think
about from our conversation.
As we wind down, we always askour guests for a pair down
pointer, so some kind of tipthat you have could be from our
(24:13):
conversation or from just lifein general that you want to
share with our listeners.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Christine gave me a heads up of one, and I'm
breaking the rules because Ihave two which I hope your
listeners are okay with.
Yes, so I'm thinking of one.
It's in this huge like apainted board in my house and
it's a quote from Renee Brownand it says show up, be seen,
(24:43):
live brave and I know this isprobably familiar to both of you
and your listeners as well ofhaving that courage to show up,
do the hard things, betransparent in who you are, be
seen by others and then livebravely.
So that's one is show up, beseen, live brave.
And this is supposed to be thepair down section, but I somehow
(25:06):
rambled more during the sectionthan the others.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
That's okay.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
And then the other is it's from oh my gosh, why am I
blinking on her name?
From Radical Candor, the author.
Her name is right on the tip ofmy tongue right now.
I can see her face.
She says care, personally,challenged directly.
(25:30):
So balancing those bothelements.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Oh, that's powerful.
We'll have links to both ofthose resources you just
mentioned too.
We'll add a link for ReneeBrown and the book Radical
Candor, because it is a veryinteresting book.
Thank you for your time today,ming.
It's been great talking to you.
I know our listeners, I'm sure,loved that episode, so thank
(25:57):
you for being with us today.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
This was so fun.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Today's episode was brought to you by Plan Z
Professional Learning ServicesForward Thinking Educator
Support.
Find out more atplanzplservicescom.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Be sure to join Tammy and Christine and guests for
more episodes of the MinimalistEducator Podcast.
They would love to hear aboutyour journey with minimalism.
Connect with them at Plan Z PLSon Twitter or Instagram.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
Gaya Moretti Music Playing].
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusiowsky-Borniman and Christine
Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
In this episode we speak with Ming about the
importance of having the courageto get right to the heart of
things, particularly incommunication.
Her pared down pointer is somewise words from Brunet Brown and
Kim Scott.
Ming Shelby is a TEDx speaker,a national board certified
educator, who has dedicated hercareer to inspiring students,
teachers and administratorsthrough learning experiences.
(00:57):
Ming is currently the directorof professional learning in the
suburbs of Chicago.
She believes the courage is thecritical ingredient for student
transformation.
Ming has facilitated workshopsfor adults and youth in Asia,
Australia, Europe and the UnitedStates.
She also builds courage beyondthe classroom to support kids
and adults through her podcastCourage Up.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Welcome to this week's episode of the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
This week we are chatting withMing Shelby and we are super
excited because Ming is such agreat speaker and I just love
hearing her voice.
So welcome to the show, Ming.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm so excited to be here withboth of you.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I speaking of voices.
So you and I met on that appClubhouse a couple years ago.
I feel like it was kind of likea COVID thing that started, and
I remember that you would oftenbe in an SEL room with Krista
and then I just always would gointo her room and listen to you
(02:04):
talk about things and you justhave one of those very inviting
voices.
So I like listening to you talk.
So thanks for being here.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
Oh, that's so kind, tammy.
You know, we're always our ownworst critics of our voices, so
when I like watch back videos ofmyself or pie, I'm like who is
that?
That can't be me.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I don't sound like that.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Well, other people, yeah, and other people think
very differently, right, exactly, yeah, but that was such a
great space for I don't evenknow if it's still a thing or
not but it was such a greatspace to get to know people and
just talk about.
You know different things, andI know one of the things that
you talk about a lot is courage,which is a really, you know, a
(02:52):
huge topic in any field, but ineducation it can be particularly
hard to be a courageous teacheror a courageous leader.
So can you tell us a bit abouthow you kind of got into that
way of thinking like this iswhat I want to focus on and work
with people, and I want to hearfrom people that are fox ga
[(ensored)] expertise thatpeople cannot workあ lot with,
the begin Location being likewell, neverremere.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah, it's funny because so in 2018, I do a word
of the year like what's yourword?
And so for me, I chose courageand I reference back to 2018
being this year of courage forme.
But when I'm reflecting, mywhole life was these courageous
moments along the way?
So to backtrack back to waywhen I was really little, so my
(03:34):
family came to United Stateswhen I was only six months old
and I, first of all, I can'teven imagine that like traveling
, leaving this country where youknow your family with a six
month old baby, and we justmoved to the States.
And so there are these momentswhere my parents were still
(03:54):
learning English.
My mom was like I feel prettygood conversationally, but I
remember that making doctor'sappointments for the family,
like I would be the one aselementary age student, making
those phone calls, practicingthat courage muscle.
I remember going through thedrive, through my mom would have
me sit in the back, like rightbehind the driver, and I would
(04:17):
be ordering what we wanted forfood.
And so there's like theselittle moments when I'm telling
my husband I'm like, did youever do this?
And he's like no, like, did youever have to?
Like call and do you like no,my mom, you know.
So it's like all those littlemoments led me up to it, and
(04:38):
even things of like speakingChinese when I didn't feel
comfortable when everyone aroundme was speaking English.
So in 2018, I had the word ofcourage.
And of course, the universe islike okay, you want to practice
courage?
Let me just put you in allthese challenging situations,
like let's go for it.
And so I really had to be likeokay, I asked for this, like
(05:03):
what am I going to do when I'min these hard situations, tough
situations?
How do I want to show up?
And one big lesson that Ilearned was it doesn't matter
about what other people think ofme or, you know, whatever else
is happening is that I wanted tomake sure that in these
(05:24):
courageous moments, I showed uptrue to me, while still being
kind to others and holding space.
And so if I was proud of how Iacted or showed up in that
moment, I was like okay, likeI'm slowly building this courage
muscle.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
So yeah, a lot of a lot about risk taking there and
being authentically you andthings like that.
That sounds like it.
That is wrapped up, yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Yeah, totally, and I think too, working with teachers
and being a teacher for manyyears, I think one of the most
courageous things that we can dois stand up to our colleagues.
Often I'm in spaces and I don'tknow if, tammy and Christine,
you can relate to this.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Oh yeah, I'm like, tell me more, tell me more.
I want to hear more about this.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
I remember being a classroom teacher and a
colleague of mine was late everyday and so I would help set up
the classroom.
I would make sure the studentsknew what they were doing,
greeted them, and it was prettyconsistent on how often she
would show up late to work.
(06:33):
And at one point I was like isthe principal going to do
something about this?
And I went to the principal.
You know, a young, naive,20-something year old, is like.
She's always late, like whatare you going to do about this?
And she's like well, have youhad the conversation with her
yet?
I'm like me what?
I'm just her colleague, likethis is not my place to have
(06:56):
that conversation.
And I think we often have thoseconversations in our head like,
oh, it shouldn't be me, like I'mnot the one that can hold her
accountable to this or be havingit.
That seems like a boss's job.
And then now, as I continue onmy leadership journey, I'm like
(07:16):
wait, sometimes the mostpowerful conversations are those
of your colleagues.
To colleagues right, like forme to take ownership of.
I care enough about thisteammate to have this hard
conversation.
I care enough about thesestudents to have this
conversation.
So, looking back on it, thingslike that.
I'm like, oh my gosh, yeah, Ihad a choice in that, like I
(07:40):
totally had power in that moment.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
That is really powerful, actually, yes, and I
think, too, we kind of dismissthis idea that probably your
colleague or any of ourcolleagues, right, when we have
to have a difficult conversationor we're thinking about it,
they would probably rather hearit from us, right, like, rather
than hearing it from your adminor you know whoever the person
(08:07):
in charge is.
But I think that we dismiss howrightful a colleague would be
Like thanks for bringing that tomy attention, or like my
intention is not to be late, butfor some reason I just can't
get myself together, likewhatever the thing is.
And then maybe thatconversation ends up being like
the catalyst for not being lateas often, because you're showing
(08:32):
that you care.
And I think you know we talk alot about relationships on the
podcast and it really does comedown to how we are relating to
the people and how we'reconnecting to each other, to
stay focused on what reallymatters, like why we're teaching
or why we're leading.
(08:52):
So, yeah, that's reallypowerful.
Speaker 4 (08:55):
Tammy, so that resonates so much with me.
So years later I found out froma different colleague that this
colleague, her husband, had somereally severe mental health
issues and so it was hard.
They had a young baby too, so itwas hard for her to get out of
(09:16):
the house because of her familysituation.
And I think back, like what ifI had just said something like
hey, noticing that it's hard foryou to get here on time, like
is there something that I can doto help support you?
And I wonder, if I open thatconversation up in that moment,
like she would have been feltsafe enough to open up to me
(09:39):
Like yeah, I'm going throughsome tough stuff at home.
It's really hard for me to getout of the house.
Like I really appreciate howyou helped my students get
started right away.
That helps me a ton, you know,and I didn't do that, so we
don't.
I'm not friends with thiscolleague, but I do wonder, like
huh, if I chose to becourageous in the moment, to
(10:02):
have that conversation andfinding empathy instead of
judgment, like what ourrelationship might have looked
like in those years of workingtogether.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Something for us all to think about.
I think there.
Do you have any tips for whenwe're dealing with people?
You know teaching is a highstress environment Often.
You know people have so much ontheir plates and you know you
might it might seem like thepeople around you are.
You know just one more straw isgoing to break that camel's
(10:34):
back.
Do you have any words of adviceif we're dealing with people
like that?
But we still want to have thatcourageous conversation, but we
know it could be, you know, thelast thing they need at that
moment.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
Yeah, christine, you bring up such a great point.
I think everyone's working sohard right now, whatever
perspective they have.
I think all the people ineducation are working really
hard right now.
So with the one more thing,everyone's plate is already so
(11:07):
full I can't have thisconversation and this.
And this is just going to sendme over the edge.
I think if we took a step back,having the conversation would
remove another straw.
I don't know if that goes withthe analogy, but sometimes it's
the anticipation leading up tohaving the conversation, or the
(11:30):
buildup of the frustration, orit's all the other stuff, the
gobbledigook, that leads to thatand oftentimes, more often than
not, after having the hardconversation, when you can just
say hey, I know this is going on, I'm thinking it might be
related to this, how do you seeit?
Can you help me understand?
(11:51):
And that open dialogue justkind of eases the tension and in
my experience it's almost likethe bricks have been lifted off
the shoulders and you're likeokay, it feels like the plate is
a little bit more manageable.
It's a little bit moremanageable now, just follow up.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
So I guess what I'm saying, Christine, is just do it
, just do it, and I'm justwondering, just as a quick add
on would you always recommendthat these sorts of things
happen face to face, or do youthink there is a possibility for
it to be in other forms ofcommunication?
Or should we stick to theperson to person, face to face
method?
Speaker 4 (12:31):
I think the pigeon carrier note is probably the
best.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
By a fax.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
I think it depends on your relationship.
I always think, somehow, ifthey can hear your voice,
whether it's face to face, azoom, a phone call, I think
email is the most impersonal andyou can't hear the intonation
Right, like one way you mighttype, it may seem so disarming,
(13:04):
but then when you add a certaintone to it you're like, oh, this
is, this becomes nasty somehow.
And so, yeah, face to face forme is ideal.
And then I think, because it'sso, sometimes it's so hard
having that conversation, so theperson you're talking to can
see like the effort you'reputting in, the courage that it
(13:26):
takes from you to go forth anddo that, and it kind of evens
the playing field, in my opinion.
What do you think, christine?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Do you agree, Christine, in your experience, I
think so because my experience,I feel like, is when it's in an
email or written down, they'rekind of forgetting that there is
a human on the other end ofthat.
It feels like.
So, in those moments of stressor overwhelm or annoyance,
(13:56):
irritation, anger, whatever itis, it's a lot easier to bang
out something than it is to havethat same level of intensity of
face to face, because you can'tignore the person standing in
front of you.
So I think, if you can, if youcan have that face to face
moment.
I know it's tricky in a busyday, but I think it definitely
does help to bridge those, youknow, bridge those issues and
(14:20):
come back to who you are andwhat you're really trying to
achieve.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Yeah, I agree with you.
Yeah, I think we can be alittle bit more human when we're
face-to-face.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
Yeah, and just thinking about that too, like
how has you focusing on havingcourageous conversations with
people and then, you know,potentially kind of even
diffusing something that mighthave become something else in an
email thread or whatever?
(14:53):
How has that potentially, orhas it helped other people?
Just kind of stay more focusedthen on what we really need to
do, because we know that we cancheck the email quick and read
it and be like, wow, that's likenot what I want to hear right
now.
But, has that kind of justhelped people stay focused when
(15:17):
you can just focus on like, okay, we're going to talk about this
, rather than let it fester?
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Yeah, I think that's a great point.
Tammy, I'm thinking as you'retalking.
Because I think so?
Because if something's nabbingat the back of you, right, like
your attention's going to besemi-diverted, whether it's
conscious or not, subconscious,like, okay, she's still not here
, like the kids are, and even,let's say, we're planning
(15:47):
together and we're planning thisgreat lesson.
But in the back of my mind Iwas like, well, why doesn't
matter, we're planning this, youmight not be here that day,
right, like these like littlevoices that somehow interject
your voice into the yourconscious.
But if we have the conversationtalking about being on time,
(16:07):
and as we're planning, I couldbe like, okay, I might hear some
things that I might have to getready for both of us.
Like my inner dialogue mightturn a little bit to be more
helpful than to be more judgy.
I think I was more judgy.
Sorry, Tammy, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
No, that's fine and I think naturally we just kind of
go to that place right whereit's a natural thing to make a
judgment, because we don't knowall of the story behind what
people are doing.
But it does make me think abouthow I, in my role right now,
really have to focus on people'spreferences of communication
(16:49):
too, because there are somepeople that respond quickly to a
text and like, thankfully I'min a small school so we have
like just a text read sometimes,but I know that not everybody
reads their email at the sametime.
I can't expect that people likeI don't expect people to read it
during the day, but sometimesif I do need a quick answer, I
(17:10):
can just like go directly tothat person or just shoot a
quick text and be like can youjust let me know, blah, blah,
blah and that person.
I think that alleviates somestress for people, in particular
when they're when you choosethat method of communication
that is their preference,because not everybody likes to
read the email, you know, eventhough it's a thing that we all
(17:32):
have to do.
But just letting them know thatlike I'm recognizing that you
appreciate a text more becauseit's more accessible for you and
you can just answer quickly, Ithink that alleviates a lot of
angst in communication becausethen it's not sitting as this
festering thing like oh, now Ihave to think about like how am
(17:53):
I going to talk to this personabout this thing and whatever.
I know that's where my mindgoes and it's so distracting,
you know it's so distracting andso, like, when we can eliminate
some of those distractions andcommunication, it just becomes
so much easier.
Yeah, what have you learnedabout yourself and others
(18:14):
working on this kind of thing?
Like just knowing that we haveto communicate in this way with
each other?
Speaker 4 (18:21):
I think it's Freud that says when you're young,
you're driven by ego and thenslowly it fades right.
But I think ego comes backafter, like when you're in your
20s I think maybe it's just meLike we don't want to look bad,
we don't want to do it wrong, or, and so I think what I learned
(18:43):
is really like humility andbeing humble and approach it
like there's always more thanone side to a story, and I heard
this trainer once said approachfrom a posture of curiosity
versus a posture of judgment.
(19:03):
And so when I go into whetherit's hard conversations, hard
situations, frustratingsituations, whatnot I try and
I'm not doing this perfectly byany means is try to think like
why might that person act thatway?
Or what are what do they reallywant out of the situation,
(19:27):
instead of going straight tolike oh, they're trying to
sabotage this work, or they'rethey are in it from themselves.
It's so quick to jump to thosenegative stories, so for me it's
about like OK seeing it fromanother person's perspective and
having the humility to do so.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
And if you found that this, you know we've been
talking a lot about courage andcommunication today, but have
you found these ideas aboutcourage connected to any other
areas of your life, Like how youtake on new challenges or
things like that?
Speaker 4 (20:05):
Yeah, I'm trying to.
I'm thinking like parenting.
I have seven year old twins andI don't know.
Every day is a new challengewith that right and this is also
communication to Christina.
It's funny, like when they wereyoung and they did something
that I was like, why did you dothat?
Right.
And like the courage to justshow up and not go off the rail.
(20:28):
Or recently, one of my boysthey're identical twins and it
just showed up that they'restarting to be in competition
with each other, one more thanthe other.
And he's said, well, I'm, I'mthe dumb brother, I'm dumb at
reading, I know.
And I just like, I just brokemy heart because, like you're a
(20:50):
great reader and your brother isa great reader, he, he likes
right.
So I think courage in thatmoment is to like put me aside
and show up for him and sayingthings like thank you for
telling me that, tell me moreRight.
Like just the courage to, toshow up and be in that space
(21:11):
with him.
I think I courage is cantranscend so many different
pieces, right, Whether it's arisk taking move, whether it's a
being quiet, and in myexperience, christine, I'm
thinking back A lot of them arethe conversations I think as
(21:34):
especially.
I don't know if this is true inthe Netherlands or in Hawaii,
but in Midwest we have thisMidwest nice culture where it's
like, oh, we're so nice, andthen all that, that people kind
of tiptoe around each other andnot get to like, okay, listen up
here, I care enough about youto have this conversation, like,
(21:57):
oh yeah, that dress looks greaton you.
And meanwhile you're like, whyis that?
Why is she wearing that?
You know?
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's such a yes.
That's a funny thing to bringup, but it's very true, like I
feel like that's very Canadianbecause that's where I'm from
right.
So it's not New Yorker at all,that's you know when it's not
Dutch.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Yeah, no, dutch are very, very direct in their
communication style.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
Yeah, how does that, christine?
How does that translate withfor you, like as a person who
works with multiple countrypeople, and like when someone's
direct with you, in myexperience we were like, oh,
that was harsh.
I'm like that wasn't reallyharsh, but it feels harsh to
them.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
But do you, I don't know do you feel that too?
Yeah, definitely, and I thinkyou know I'm Australian but I've
lived in, you know, asia forquite a long time as well, and
so to have this sort of verydirect communication style, it
did really shock me, the first,you know, when I first moved
here, for sure.
(23:03):
But I now, I have to say I nowkind of find it quirky and sort
of endearing, and so when peoplesay things that are very like,
might seem very blunt and rude,it kind of makes me giggle now
because it I appreciate it.
It's, you know, it's quite nicefor a change to have people you
know tell you exactly what theythink.
So I enjoy it these days.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
Yeah, but maybe it took, it wasn't acquired taste.
Yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
And a lot of like explaining from my Dutch
colleagues as well.
You know like their perspectiveon it and why they think it's
important to speak like that,and I think that hearing their
point of view and theirexperiences helped me understand
where they're coming from.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
At this point in the show Ming we've talked a lot
about a hard subject, actuallyhaving courage and the way we
communicate with people, andI've brought a lot to think
about from our conversation.
As we wind down, we always askour guests for a pair down
pointer, so some kind of tipthat you have could be from our
(24:13):
conversation or from just lifein general that you want to
share with our listeners.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Christine gave me a heads up of one, and I'm
breaking the rules because Ihave two which I hope your
listeners are okay with.
Yes, so I'm thinking of one.
It's in this huge like apainted board in my house and
it's a quote from Renee Brownand it says show up, be seen,
(24:43):
live brave and I know this isprobably familiar to both of you
and your listeners as well ofhaving that courage to show up,
do the hard things, betransparent in who you are, be
seen by others and then livebravely.
So that's one is show up, beseen, live brave.
And this is supposed to be thepair down section, but I somehow
(25:06):
rambled more during the sectionthan the others.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
That's okay.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
And then the other is it's from oh my gosh, why am I
blinking on her name?
From Radical Candor, the author.
Her name is right on the tip ofmy tongue right now.
I can see her face.
She says care, personally,challenged directly.
(25:30):
So balancing those bothelements.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Oh, that's powerful.
We'll have links to both ofthose resources you just
mentioned too.
We'll add a link for ReneeBrown and the book Radical
Candor, because it is a veryinteresting book.
Thank you for your time today,ming.
It's been great talking to you.
I know our listeners, I'm sure,loved that episode, so thank
(25:57):
you for being with us today.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Thank you so much for having me.
This was so fun.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Today's episode was brought to you by Plan Z
Professional Learning ServicesForward Thinking Educator
Support.
Find out more atplanzplservicescom.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Be sure to join Tammy and Christine and guests for
more episodes of the MinimalistEducator Podcast.
They would love to hear aboutyour journey with minimalism.
Connect with them at Plan Z PLSon Twitter or Instagram.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
Gaya Moretti Music Playing].
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