December 10, 2024 • 24 mins
Can you imagine navigating a world where your child's education is simplified and more effective? Join us on the Minimalist Educator Podcast as we uncover how to streamline online educational programs with the help of our insightful guests, Naomi Church and Sarah DeCotis from Age of Learning. Naomi, an expert educator and national math curriculum specialist, and Sarah, a national literacy director, share their wisdom on managing the overwhelming number of ed tech tools in schools. With the typical school district juggling around 1,400 different programs, they reveal the critical need to reduce this number to ensure smooth implementation and ease of use for everyone involved. They highlight the power of selecting research-backed, evidence-based programs to genuinely enhance the educational experience while keeping things straightforward and efficient.
We dive into pragmatic strategies for prioritizing and implementing educational programs amid a sea of available platforms and technologies. Emphasizing a minimalist approach, we explore how to choose the most effective programs backed by robust research and efficacy studies, particularly those vetted by third-party organizations. Our conversation includes practical tips for gathering user feedback, conducting pilot tests, and ensuring alignment with school or district goals. Naomi and Sarah also stress the importance of high-quality professional learning to guarantee successful program implementation, focusing on quality over quantity. Tune in to learn how to make informed decisions that maximize resources and significantly improve student learning outcomes.
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Naomi Church @GrowingMindsK12, Age of Learning @AgeofLearning
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusiewski-Bornemann and
Christine Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
In this episode, we talk to Sarah and Naomi from Age
of Learning about onlineprograms.
They speak with us about how toensure online programs are
purposeful, efficient andresearch-based.
Naomi Church is a speaker,author, experienced educator and
credentialed coach.
She served in the sixth largestschool district in the nation
for almost 20 years as aprofessional development
(00:56):
specialist, math interventionspecialist, rti coordinator,
instructional coach and teacherleader.
Naomi developed statewidetraining in mathematics for
struggling learners anddifferentiated math instruction
in collaboration with theFlorida Diagnostic and Learning
Resources Center.
As the president of LearningForward Florida, naomi is
helping to re-envisionprofessional learning for
educators to maximize engagement, value and implementation.
(01:16):
In her current role as theNational Math Curriculum
Specialist for Age of Learning,naomi serves as a thought leader
and change agent, translatingthe core values of Age of
Learning educational productsinto transformative practice in
classrooms, schools anddistricts.
Sarah Dacotis is anaccomplished educator and
district leader with over 15years of experience in Broward
(01:36):
County Public Schools, the sixthlargest district in the nation.
Throughout her tenure, she hasheld various roles, including
general education teacher,interventionist, reading coach,
rr coordinator, professionallearning specialist and district
administrator.
Today, sarah serves as NationalLiteracy Director at Age of
Learning, a leading educationaltechnology company.
As a company spokesperson onthe science of reading, she has
designed, developed andfacilitated high-value
(01:58):
presentations on all thingsliteracy for district
superintendents, chief academicofficers and other executive
district leaders at variousnational speaking engagements.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of
the Minimalist Educator podcast.
Today, christine and I areexcited to have not only one
guest with us, but we have two,and we are happy to have Naomi
Church, who is one of our firstguests on the podcast, and with
her today is her colleague,sarah Dakotas, and together they
(02:30):
are representing Age ofLearning.
Welcome to the podcast today,ladies.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Thank you.
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
Thank you, I'm super excited to be back.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Thank you for being here.
How are you today, Christine?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I'm doing good.
I'm excited to chat with thesevery experienced and
knowledgeable ladies.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Me too.
Me too, I'm excited.
Well, I'm always excited totalk to Naomi about stuff
because she just is brilliantwith things.
But I'm interested because thefirst time that you were on, we
talked about some of the workyou do within your math
specialty, and we're going tocontinue to talk about that, but
(03:08):
from a slightly different lensbecause you're in a different
role with this company.
So we're excited to talk aboutsome of the work that you do
with Age of Learning, because weknow that choosing appropriate
programs for schools is reallytricky and we want to.
You know, we're all about, likepurposeful spending and making
(03:29):
sure that programs are meetingthe needs of learners in schools
.
So you know we're going to talkabout some of those choices
that schools can make.
So the first question is foryou, naomi there's a lot of
online programs that are used inschools all over, not just the
US, but all over the world.
What are you seeing andexperiencing now in schools with
(03:52):
regard to some of these onlineprograms?
Speaker 5 (03:55):
Yeah, there are a ton of programs in use and,
according to the data from LearnPlatform by Instructure, the
average school district has1,400 different ed tech programs
in use.
So that is stuff that teachersbring in, websites and programs
(04:17):
that individual principals andthen that are brought in at the
district level.
So an average of 1,400.
That's crazy, right, that's somany.
And what happens is it's nearlyimpossible for district staff
and school coaches to be able tosupport all of those programs
(04:39):
so that you have fidelity ofimplementation.
And we also see that parents cansometimes become overwhelmed
with trying to access a lot ofthe different platforms on their
end.
So when my own children were inmiddle school, when my daughter
started sixth grade, she had,let's see, six different
(05:04):
teachers and there were fourdifferent platforms between the
six teachers that they wereusing to communicate.
So I had to go into all ofthese different apps to make
sure I didn't miss a messagefrom the math teacher or the
science teacher, and certainlyit becomes overwhelming.
We can also see that sometimesthere's an equity of access
(05:27):
concern.
So, with so many programs inuse, if one teacher is really
tech savvy and innovative andexcited, he or she may be using
several different programs, butthen the teacher in the
classroom or school next doordoesn't want to deal with it or
(05:47):
is too overwhelmed, and thenthose kids don't get exposure
and access to the programs right.
And so when we have lessprograms in play, we're
certainly going to have betterimplementation and we're going
to have happier parents andteachers and students.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
And, sarah, I know that you are very experienced as
far as looking at educationalresearch.
Can you tell us a little bitabout why it's so important for
us, as educators, to reallythink about the research behind
these online programs and, asNaomi mentioned, that fidelity
aspect of it?
How can we make sure we aredoing it as the research tells
(06:31):
us to do across all thedifferent schools and classes
and year groups and so on?
Speaker 4 (06:36):
Yeah, sure.
So you want to consider, whenmaking smart procurement
decisions and when makingdecisions on what types of
programs you're going to put infront of students and teachers,
is it research backed?
But you also want to considerthe efficacy behind it and
whether or not it'sevidence-based as well.
So there's this these termsthat are being thrown out out
(06:57):
there which is research-basedand evidence-based.
So I'll elaborate a bit more onthe evidence-based, because I
think that's what's reallycritical when making smart
procurement decisions.
And so you know, evidence-basedor efficacy, these types of
words it essentially just meansthat a program will deliver on
the promises that it's makingright, it'll ensure that the
(07:21):
students will get the intendedlearning outcome that the
program is claiming that theywill.
And so you want to make surethat you're looking for evidence
of this efficacy.
And there are a number ofdifferent methodologies to
conduct these types of studies.
You know there's case studies,there are correlational studies,
where you might look at twovariables and then examine the
(07:43):
relationships between the two,and there's more rigorous types
of studies, which are reallyhallmarks of a quality program
if they have these studies andit shows that it's efficacious
which are quasi-experimentaldesigns.
So in this type of study or thistype of design.
You're comparing differentconditions.
So you might compare atreatment group or a group
(08:05):
that's getting the variable thatyou're studying whether it's a
program or a practice and then acontrol group, a group that is
not right, and this is where youcan really start to see some
level of effectiveness of theprogram.
And then there's the goldstandard, which is RCTs or
randomized control trials, andthis is when you randomly assign
students to these two groupsthat I mentioned earlier, and
(08:28):
this is considered a strongerlevel of evidence for a program
that is working.
So you wanna look for thosetypes of studies when a program
is claiming to make, or when aprogram is making claims on
student achievement, to reallyknow if you're making smart
procurement decisions.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
And so, as someone with a background in literacy
and the science of reading, howdo you see the role of this
research and the efficacystudies in guiding educator
choices when selecting theprograms or resources?
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Sure, it should definitely play a really
significant role.
So, as I mentioned earlier, youwant to look for at least a
quasi-experimental design or arandomized control trial.
There are some other studiesthat are above those levels, but
you want to start at thequasi-level.
There are some correlationalstudies as well, which is good
to have, but you want to makedecisions on a robust suite of
(09:22):
evidence or a body of evidencewhen procuring a program.
Additionally, the importance ofthird-party validated research
can't be overstated.
So companies that partner withorganizations like WestEd or SRI
International, for example,provide independent assessments
that lend credibility to aprogram's claim.
(09:44):
So it's important that thataspect is also there, because
companies conduct their ownstudies, but you want to
eliminate any type of bias right, and so if they have partnered
with a third party and it's beenevaluated by that third party
on the design and the rigor ofthe program, then you can take
more stock in what this companyis claiming to do.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, I was just thinking that, sarah.
Sometimes they do their ownresearch and say our findings of
X, y and Z.
Can we trust them or do we?
Yeah, but I think that's areally good point to note that
having an unbiased perspectiveis really helpful.
And, naomi, last time you werewith us, we were talking a
little bit about UniversalDesign for Learning UDL.
(10:24):
Can we use online platforms tosupport UDL in our schools, or
is it not appropriate?
Speaker 5 (10:33):
Absolutely, we can use education technology to
support the implementation ofuniversal design for learning,
and when we're choosing lessprograms to implement and we're
very choosy about having theseeffective programs, we also want
(10:54):
to make sure that they'reuniversally designed, right?
So, again, universal design forlearning is a framework to
improve and optimize teachingand learning for all people,
based on insights into howhumans learn, and so this UDL
framework is really split intothree main components, and those
(11:16):
are engagement, representationand action and expression.
So engagement is really the whyof learning and that's where
inspiration and motivation live,and we can have educational
technology.
We can have these programs thatare engaging, that students
(11:37):
want to be a part of.
Right, they're asking to play,they just want to be involved
with it, as opposed to sometimesit's like, oh, do I have to do
another one?
Right, there are certainlyprograms out there that kids are
excited to interact with, asopposed to sometimes it's like,
oh, do I have to do another one?
Right, there are certainlyprograms out there that kids are
excited to interact with.
Another piece of UDL isrepresentation.
(12:00):
So that's multiple means ofrepresentation, and that is
essentially showing things inall different ways, and you know
that math is my thing.
So, when it comes to math, wewant to be showing the numbers
and the problems in differentways, with different tools, with
different pictorial and visualrepresentations, because all of
(12:23):
that contributes to buildingdeeper conceptual understanding.
And then the last piece of UDLis the multiple means of action
and expression, which isessentially allowing students to
show what they can do.
We want to leverage theirstrengths so that they're able
(12:43):
to show us what they do know asopposed to what they don't know,
and we also want them to beable to do that with as few
scaffolds as possible.
Julie Dixon at the Universityof Central Florida talks about
just-in-time scaffolding versusjust-in-case scaffolding, and so
(13:05):
you really want to make surethat the program that you're
using isn't over scaffolding anddenying students the
opportunity to think deeply andfigure things out for themselves
.
We want those just-in-timescaffolds where, when a student
demonstrates a need for it, thescaffold appears, but if they
(13:26):
don't need it, it's not therefor them to peers, but if they
don't need it, it's not therefor them.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
That's so interesting to think about.
I just had a conversation withsomeone recently about providing
too much for students and notgiving them the opportunity to
try and access on their own.
So I think those points arejust so important.
This next question is either ofyou want to give any points
around this, but we know thatteachers often seek advice right
(13:56):
, so we want to have someautonomy with teachers in their
programming and their planning,but they also need advice
because they do get overwhelmedwith the platforms and the
technologies.
There's just a lot happening so, and you know that we always
talk about how do we prioritizeand how do we choose the best
(14:16):
things for us.
So how would you, or whatadvice would you, give teachers
or school leaders regarding howto prioritize and choose a
program that align with like aminimalist principle, which is
like finding the value insomething, or making sure that
you're aligning with yourpurposes within your school
(14:36):
programming so that you're stillensuring the effectiveness in
student learning outcomes?
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Sure.
So I think that I'll reiteratewhat I mentioned earlier you
definitely want to look forprograms that are backed by
strong research, that havevalidated efficacy studies,
especially those reviewed by athird-party organization.
You want to pay attention tothe quality of those studies, so
you want to prioritize therandomized control trial studies
.
You want to prioritizequasi-experimental designs over
(15:06):
less rigorous methodologies,designs over less rigorous
methodologies.
But there are some other thingsthat you can do.
You can seek some user feedbackfrom other educators that have
had experience using the program, and having these real-world
experiences can provide somevaluable insights into how well
a program would work in practice.
Conducting and this is more forthe district level, but
(15:26):
conducting a pilot, you know, inyour own district, before
committing to full scaleimplementation.
This will also allow you to seefirsthand how the program
performs with your students inyour context, in your district.
And speaking of that, you wantto make sure that the program
aligns with your school or yourdistrict's goals and priorities,
to maintain focus and coherencewithin your educational
(15:51):
initiatives.
And then, less is more right,so you want to focus on quality
over quantity.
It's better to implement a fewhighly effective programs, and
you know that, based on thestudies and the research that
it's backed up with, rather thanto spread resources so thin and
across so many initiatives thatyou can't implement anything
(16:13):
well.
So I think, if you follow thoseguidelines, you're on the right
track to making some smartdecisions.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Did you have anything to add to that, Naomi?
Speaker 5 (16:24):
nope, she got it all.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I was.
I was going to ask you butmaybe it's a very similar answer
to what you just gave us there,sarah.
Um, I was going to ask if, ifyou're in a school context that
doesn't have a lot of financialresources and you really have to
just choose one thing that'sgoing to give you the biggest
(16:49):
bang for your buck, as they say,would you still go with those
same principles of like look atthe research, look what your
community needs, or is theresome other thing that could help
us choose one thing?
Speaker 4 (17:03):
No, absolutely those are definitely.
They're even more important fordistricts that are in that
position.
But I will add that there are alot of tools.
You're not alone, right?
So there is no governing bodythat puts a gold standard on a
program that talk whether it'seffective or not.
So it really is up to districtsand school leaders, and
sometimes teachers, to makethose critical decisions.
(17:23):
So if you look for thehallmarks that I mentioned
earlier and you know what tolook for, you're certainly on
the right step.
But there are some resourcesthat are readily available for
decision makers to use to guidetheir decision making.
The Reading League is a reallyfantastic organization when it
comes to determining if aprogram is aligned to the
(17:45):
science of reading.
They have a lot of guidancedocuments and instructional
review materials that'll takeyou step by step on red flags to
look for and that'll sort ofsupport you in this very
difficult process.
And there are other guidancedocuments that you know
Louisiana, the Department ofEducation over there they put
(18:05):
out Rhode Island Department ofEducation.
So there's a lot of statedocuments that are out there
that are available, thatteachers and districts can use
as well.
It's what I used in Browardwhen I made those decisions as a
district administrator, so itcertainly helps.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
I do want to point out the importance of
professional learning in gettinga quality implementation right.
So Sarah's talking about thisprocurement process, where we
want to be very careful aboutthe programs that we're choosing
and bringing into our districtso that we're spending our money
and our valuable time on theprograms that are most effective
(18:41):
, that are going to be mostmeaningful and relevant for our
students relevant for ourstudents.
But even if we have the bestprogram, we need to roll out an
implementation plan in order tohave success.
Right, you can have the bestprogram, but if nobody's using
it, we're not going to see theresults, and so a key piece of
(19:02):
that is high qualityprofessional learning that
educators and parents have to beclear on why the program is so
great, why it was chosen, maybeeven some of that efficacy
research behind it, right, butthen also professional
development for the teachers andeven parent sessions in how to
(19:27):
access the data or get the mostout of the program.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Yeah, that's such a good point because, you know,
even when teachers are going tosessions, you don't know that
it's going to be implementedwhatever they've learned after
they return to the classroom,and we have to ensure that
that's the only way that changeis made in classrooms and and
kids get better quality oflearning.
(19:52):
So, um, thank you for bringingup that point.
We're at the point in the showthat we ask our guests for a
pare down pointer, and it can berelated to what we just talked
about or it can be somethingthat you bring up in your own
work practices, but we are.
If you have a tip that you canshare with our listeners about
(20:16):
you know how you prioritize orpare down in your own workflows
or when you're communicatingwith your partners, or anything
like that.
We always look forward tohearing those from our guests
like that.
Speaker 5 (20:29):
we always look forward to hearing those from
our guests.
Yeah, I think really it comesdown to less is more for the
pared out pointer right Chooseless instructional online
programs to use in your schooland district, ensure that
they're based in efficacy andthat you have an implementation
plan to ensure that they'resuccessful.
(20:52):
And it's going to be a wholelot easier to look into the
background and implement fewerprograms than it is to try to do
that, certainly with 1,400 onaverage.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
I would also add that once you have the program and
you've made a good decision andyou feel good about it, it's
important to make room forchange right, make room for
implementation, and so peopleare generally comfortable with
the status quo, and introducingany new program or methodology
can be met with some skepticismor pushback, and this is a very
(21:29):
real context.
And so this is where we shouldreally leverage implementation
science, which is a structuredapproach to help ensure that
initiatives are thoughtfullyplanned and executed, and
essentially, it's just thedifference between letting
something happen or makingsomething happen, something
(21:52):
happen or making somethinghappen.
So one critical step to that islooking at your existing
programs and deciding what tode-implement, which involves
identifying and removingexisting practices that might
not be working, that might notbe backed by research, that you
haven't had any success in, andthis step creates the space and
the room for lasting change thatyou're trying to make in your
classroom, in your school, inyour district, and it allows
(22:14):
initiatives to be moreeffectively integrated.
And then, you know, ensuringthe fidelity of implementation.
That's another crucial aspect,and this involves scaling the
program through comprehensiveprofessional development, like
Naomi stated earlier, as well asongoing supports for educators.
Your professional learning planshould never be a one like
touch and go.
(22:35):
You want to have a plan toscale and sustain, and so you
want to have a plan for thoseteachers that need ongoing
support, and it should lookdifferent for every teacher.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Thank you both so much for those tips.
The de-implementation yes, yes,yes.
Some more time needs to bespent in schools, just looking
at what's in front of them andwhat they can just be like this
does not add value for us.
We need to let it go.
Thank you, ladies, so much forthis episode.
(23:06):
It was really interesting tohear some of the research behind
programs and just the thoughtprocesses in the work that you
do.
So thank you for being with ustoday.
Speaker 5 (23:17):
Thank you so much, it was a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
This episode was brought to you by Age of
Learning, leading the way inlearning outcomes by helping
children everywhere build astrong foundation for academic
success and a lifelong love oflearning.
Find out more atageoflearningcom.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Be sure to join Tammy and Christine and guests for
more episodes of the MinimalistEducator podcast.
They would love to hear aboutyour journey with minimalism.
Connect with them at PlanZPLSon Twitter or Instagram.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
(24:00):
Gaia Moretti.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusiewski-Bornemann and
Christine Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
In this episode, we talk to Sarah and Naomi from Age
of Learning about onlineprograms.
They speak with us about how toensure online programs are
purposeful, efficient andresearch-based.
Naomi Church is a speaker,author, experienced educator and
credentialed coach.
She served in the sixth largestschool district in the nation
for almost 20 years as aprofessional development
(00:56):
specialist, math interventionspecialist, rti coordinator,
instructional coach and teacherleader.
Naomi developed statewidetraining in mathematics for
struggling learners anddifferentiated math instruction
in collaboration with theFlorida Diagnostic and Learning
Resources Center.
As the president of LearningForward Florida, naomi is
helping to re-envisionprofessional learning for
educators to maximize engagement, value and implementation.
(01:16):
In her current role as theNational Math Curriculum
Specialist for Age of Learning,naomi serves as a thought leader
and change agent, translatingthe core values of Age of
Learning educational productsinto transformative practice in
classrooms, schools anddistricts.
Sarah Dacotis is anaccomplished educator and
district leader with over 15years of experience in Broward
(01:36):
County Public Schools, the sixthlargest district in the nation.
Throughout her tenure, she hasheld various roles, including
general education teacher,interventionist, reading coach,
rr coordinator, professionallearning specialist and district
administrator.
Today, sarah serves as NationalLiteracy Director at Age of
Learning, a leading educationaltechnology company.
As a company spokesperson onthe science of reading, she has
designed, developed andfacilitated high-value
(01:58):
presentations on all thingsliteracy for district
superintendents, chief academicofficers and other executive
district leaders at variousnational speaking engagements.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Hello everyone and welcome to today's episode of
the Minimalist Educator podcast.
Today, christine and I areexcited to have not only one
guest with us, but we have two,and we are happy to have Naomi
Church, who is one of our firstguests on the podcast, and with
her today is her colleague,sarah Dakotas, and together they
(02:30):
are representing Age ofLearning.
Welcome to the podcast today,ladies.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Thank you.
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
Thank you, I'm super excited to be back.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Thank you for being here.
How are you today, Christine?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I'm doing good.
I'm excited to chat with thesevery experienced and
knowledgeable ladies.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Me too.
Me too, I'm excited.
Well, I'm always excited totalk to Naomi about stuff
because she just is brilliantwith things.
But I'm interested because thefirst time that you were on, we
talked about some of the workyou do within your math
specialty, and we're going tocontinue to talk about that, but
(03:08):
from a slightly different lensbecause you're in a different
role with this company.
So we're excited to talk aboutsome of the work that you do
with Age of Learning, because weknow that choosing appropriate
programs for schools is reallytricky and we want to.
You know, we're all about, likepurposeful spending and making
(03:29):
sure that programs are meetingthe needs of learners in schools
.
So you know we're going to talkabout some of those choices
that schools can make.
So the first question is foryou, naomi there's a lot of
online programs that are used inschools all over, not just the
US, but all over the world.
What are you seeing andexperiencing now in schools with
(03:52):
regard to some of these onlineprograms?
Speaker 5 (03:55):
Yeah, there are a ton of programs in use and,
according to the data from LearnPlatform by Instructure, the
average school district has1,400 different ed tech programs
in use.
So that is stuff that teachersbring in, websites and programs
(04:17):
that individual principals andthen that are brought in at the
district level.
So an average of 1,400.
That's crazy, right, that's somany.
And what happens is it's nearlyimpossible for district staff
and school coaches to be able tosupport all of those programs
(04:39):
so that you have fidelity ofimplementation.
And we also see that parents cansometimes become overwhelmed
with trying to access a lot ofthe different platforms on their
end.
So when my own children were inmiddle school, when my daughter
started sixth grade, she had,let's see, six different
(05:04):
teachers and there were fourdifferent platforms between the
six teachers that they wereusing to communicate.
So I had to go into all ofthese different apps to make
sure I didn't miss a messagefrom the math teacher or the
science teacher, and certainlyit becomes overwhelming.
We can also see that sometimesthere's an equity of access
(05:27):
concern.
So, with so many programs inuse, if one teacher is really
tech savvy and innovative andexcited, he or she may be using
several different programs, butthen the teacher in the
classroom or school next doordoesn't want to deal with it or
(05:47):
is too overwhelmed, and thenthose kids don't get exposure
and access to the programs right.
And so when we have lessprograms in play, we're
certainly going to have betterimplementation and we're going
to have happier parents andteachers and students.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
And, sarah, I know that you are very experienced as
far as looking at educationalresearch.
Can you tell us a little bitabout why it's so important for
us, as educators, to reallythink about the research behind
these online programs and, asNaomi mentioned, that fidelity
aspect of it?
How can we make sure we aredoing it as the research tells
(06:31):
us to do across all thedifferent schools and classes
and year groups and so on?
Speaker 4 (06:36):
Yeah, sure.
So you want to consider, whenmaking smart procurement
decisions and when makingdecisions on what types of
programs you're going to put infront of students and teachers,
is it research backed?
But you also want to considerthe efficacy behind it and
whether or not it'sevidence-based as well.
So there's this these termsthat are being thrown out out
(06:57):
there which is research-basedand evidence-based.
So I'll elaborate a bit more onthe evidence-based, because I
think that's what's reallycritical when making smart
procurement decisions.
And so you know, evidence-basedor efficacy, these types of
words it essentially just meansthat a program will deliver on
the promises that it's makingright, it'll ensure that the
(07:21):
students will get the intendedlearning outcome that the
program is claiming that theywill.
And so you want to make surethat you're looking for evidence
of this efficacy.
And there are a number ofdifferent methodologies to
conduct these types of studies.
You know there's case studies,there are correlational studies,
where you might look at twovariables and then examine the
(07:43):
relationships between the two,and there's more rigorous types
of studies, which are reallyhallmarks of a quality program
if they have these studies andit shows that it's efficacious
which are quasi-experimentaldesigns.
So in this type of study or thistype of design.
You're comparing differentconditions.
So you might compare atreatment group or a group
(08:05):
that's getting the variable thatyou're studying whether it's a
program or a practice and then acontrol group, a group that is
not right, and this is where youcan really start to see some
level of effectiveness of theprogram.
And then there's the goldstandard, which is RCTs or
randomized control trials, andthis is when you randomly assign
students to these two groupsthat I mentioned earlier, and
(08:28):
this is considered a strongerlevel of evidence for a program
that is working.
So you wanna look for thosetypes of studies when a program
is claiming to make, or when aprogram is making claims on
student achievement, to reallyknow if you're making smart
procurement decisions.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
And so, as someone with a background in literacy
and the science of reading, howdo you see the role of this
research and the efficacystudies in guiding educator
choices when selecting theprograms or resources?
Speaker 4 (09:02):
Sure, it should definitely play a really
significant role.
So, as I mentioned earlier, youwant to look for at least a
quasi-experimental design or arandomized control trial.
There are some other studiesthat are above those levels, but
you want to start at thequasi-level.
There are some correlationalstudies as well, which is good
to have, but you want to makedecisions on a robust suite of
(09:22):
evidence or a body of evidencewhen procuring a program.
Additionally, the importance ofthird-party validated research
can't be overstated.
So companies that partner withorganizations like WestEd or SRI
International, for example,provide independent assessments
that lend credibility to aprogram's claim.
(09:44):
So it's important that thataspect is also there, because
companies conduct their ownstudies, but you want to
eliminate any type of bias right, and so if they have partnered
with a third party and it's beenevaluated by that third party
on the design and the rigor ofthe program, then you can take
more stock in what this companyis claiming to do.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Yeah, I was just thinking that, sarah.
Sometimes they do their ownresearch and say our findings of
X, y and Z.
Can we trust them or do we?
Yeah, but I think that's areally good point to note that
having an unbiased perspectiveis really helpful.
And, naomi, last time you werewith us, we were talking a
little bit about UniversalDesign for Learning UDL.
(10:24):
Can we use online platforms tosupport UDL in our schools, or
is it not appropriate?
Speaker 5 (10:33):
Absolutely, we can use education technology to
support the implementation ofuniversal design for learning,
and when we're choosing lessprograms to implement and we're
very choosy about having theseeffective programs, we also want
(10:54):
to make sure that they'reuniversally designed, right?
So, again, universal design forlearning is a framework to
improve and optimize teachingand learning for all people,
based on insights into howhumans learn, and so this UDL
framework is really split intothree main components, and those
(11:16):
are engagement, representationand action and expression.
So engagement is really the whyof learning and that's where
inspiration and motivation live,and we can have educational
technology.
We can have these programs thatare engaging, that students
(11:37):
want to be a part of.
Right, they're asking to play,they just want to be involved
with it, as opposed to sometimesit's like, oh, do I have to do
another one?
Right, there are certainlyprograms out there that kids are
excited to interact with, asopposed to sometimes it's like,
oh, do I have to do another one?
Right, there are certainlyprograms out there that kids are
excited to interact with.
Another piece of UDL isrepresentation.
(12:00):
So that's multiple means ofrepresentation, and that is
essentially showing things inall different ways, and you know
that math is my thing.
So, when it comes to math, wewant to be showing the numbers
and the problems in differentways, with different tools, with
different pictorial and visualrepresentations, because all of
(12:23):
that contributes to buildingdeeper conceptual understanding.
And then the last piece of UDLis the multiple means of action
and expression, which isessentially allowing students to
show what they can do.
We want to leverage theirstrengths so that they're able
(12:43):
to show us what they do know asopposed to what they don't know,
and we also want them to beable to do that with as few
scaffolds as possible.
Julie Dixon at the Universityof Central Florida talks about
just-in-time scaffolding versusjust-in-case scaffolding, and so
(13:05):
you really want to make surethat the program that you're
using isn't over scaffolding anddenying students the
opportunity to think deeply andfigure things out for themselves
.
We want those just-in-timescaffolds where, when a student
demonstrates a need for it, thescaffold appears, but if they
(13:26):
don't need it, it's not therefor them to peers, but if they
don't need it, it's not therefor them.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
That's so interesting to think about.
I just had a conversation withsomeone recently about providing
too much for students and notgiving them the opportunity to
try and access on their own.
So I think those points arejust so important.
This next question is either ofyou want to give any points
around this, but we know thatteachers often seek advice right
(13:56):
, so we want to have someautonomy with teachers in their
programming and their planning,but they also need advice
because they do get overwhelmedwith the platforms and the
technologies.
There's just a lot happening so, and you know that we always
talk about how do we prioritizeand how do we choose the best
(14:16):
things for us.
So how would you, or whatadvice would you, give teachers
or school leaders regarding howto prioritize and choose a
program that align with like aminimalist principle, which is
like finding the value insomething, or making sure that
you're aligning with yourpurposes within your school
(14:36):
programming so that you're stillensuring the effectiveness in
student learning outcomes?
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Sure.
So I think that I'll reiteratewhat I mentioned earlier you
definitely want to look forprograms that are backed by
strong research, that havevalidated efficacy studies,
especially those reviewed by athird-party organization.
You want to pay attention tothe quality of those studies, so
you want to prioritize therandomized control trial studies
.
You want to prioritizequasi-experimental designs over
(15:06):
less rigorous methodologies,designs over less rigorous
methodologies.
But there are some other thingsthat you can do.
You can seek some user feedbackfrom other educators that have
had experience using the program, and having these real-world
experiences can provide somevaluable insights into how well
a program would work in practice.
Conducting and this is more forthe district level, but
(15:26):
conducting a pilot, you know, inyour own district, before
committing to full scaleimplementation.
This will also allow you to seefirsthand how the program
performs with your students inyour context, in your district.
And speaking of that, you wantto make sure that the program
aligns with your school or yourdistrict's goals and priorities,
to maintain focus and coherencewithin your educational
(15:51):
initiatives.
And then, less is more right,so you want to focus on quality
over quantity.
It's better to implement a fewhighly effective programs, and
you know that, based on thestudies and the research that
it's backed up with, rather thanto spread resources so thin and
across so many initiatives thatyou can't implement anything
(16:13):
well.
So I think, if you follow thoseguidelines, you're on the right
track to making some smartdecisions.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Did you have anything to add to that, Naomi?
Speaker 5 (16:24):
nope, she got it all.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I was.
I was going to ask you butmaybe it's a very similar answer
to what you just gave us there,sarah.
Um, I was going to ask if, ifyou're in a school context that
doesn't have a lot of financialresources and you really have to
just choose one thing that'sgoing to give you the biggest
(16:49):
bang for your buck, as they say,would you still go with those
same principles of like look atthe research, look what your
community needs, or is theresome other thing that could help
us choose one thing?
Speaker 4 (17:03):
No, absolutely those are definitely.
They're even more important fordistricts that are in that
position.
But I will add that there are alot of tools.
You're not alone, right?
So there is no governing bodythat puts a gold standard on a
program that talk whether it'seffective or not.
So it really is up to districtsand school leaders, and
sometimes teachers, to makethose critical decisions.
(17:23):
So if you look for thehallmarks that I mentioned
earlier and you know what tolook for, you're certainly on
the right step.
But there are some resourcesthat are readily available for
decision makers to use to guidetheir decision making.
The Reading League is a reallyfantastic organization when it
comes to determining if aprogram is aligned to the
(17:45):
science of reading.
They have a lot of guidancedocuments and instructional
review materials that'll takeyou step by step on red flags to
look for and that'll sort ofsupport you in this very
difficult process.
And there are other guidancedocuments that you know
Louisiana, the Department ofEducation over there they put
(18:05):
out Rhode Island Department ofEducation.
So there's a lot of statedocuments that are out there
that are available, thatteachers and districts can use
as well.
It's what I used in Browardwhen I made those decisions as a
district administrator, so itcertainly helps.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
I do want to point out the importance of
professional learning in gettinga quality implementation right.
So Sarah's talking about thisprocurement process, where we
want to be very careful aboutthe programs that we're choosing
and bringing into our districtso that we're spending our money
and our valuable time on theprograms that are most effective
(18:41):
, that are going to be mostmeaningful and relevant for our
students relevant for ourstudents.
But even if we have the bestprogram, we need to roll out an
implementation plan in order tohave success.
Right, you can have the bestprogram, but if nobody's using
it, we're not going to see theresults, and so a key piece of
(19:02):
that is high qualityprofessional learning that
educators and parents have to beclear on why the program is so
great, why it was chosen, maybeeven some of that efficacy
research behind it, right, butthen also professional
development for the teachers andeven parent sessions in how to
(19:27):
access the data or get the mostout of the program.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Yeah, that's such a good point because, you know,
even when teachers are going tosessions, you don't know that
it's going to be implementedwhatever they've learned after
they return to the classroom,and we have to ensure that
that's the only way that changeis made in classrooms and and
kids get better quality oflearning.
(19:52):
So, um, thank you for bringingup that point.
We're at the point in the showthat we ask our guests for a
pare down pointer, and it can berelated to what we just talked
about or it can be somethingthat you bring up in your own
work practices, but we are.
If you have a tip that you canshare with our listeners about
(20:16):
you know how you prioritize orpare down in your own workflows
or when you're communicatingwith your partners, or anything
like that.
We always look forward tohearing those from our guests
like that.
Speaker 5 (20:29):
we always look forward to hearing those from
our guests.
Yeah, I think really it comesdown to less is more for the
pared out pointer right Chooseless instructional online
programs to use in your schooland district, ensure that
they're based in efficacy andthat you have an implementation
plan to ensure that they'resuccessful.
(20:52):
And it's going to be a wholelot easier to look into the
background and implement fewerprograms than it is to try to do
that, certainly with 1,400 onaverage.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
I would also add that once you have the program and
you've made a good decision andyou feel good about it, it's
important to make room forchange right, make room for
implementation, and so peopleare generally comfortable with
the status quo, and introducingany new program or methodology
can be met with some skepticismor pushback, and this is a very
(21:29):
real context.
And so this is where we shouldreally leverage implementation
science, which is a structuredapproach to help ensure that
initiatives are thoughtfullyplanned and executed, and
essentially, it's just thedifference between letting
something happen or makingsomething happen, something
(21:52):
happen or making somethinghappen.
So one critical step to that islooking at your existing
programs and deciding what tode-implement, which involves
identifying and removingexisting practices that might
not be working, that might notbe backed by research, that you
haven't had any success in, andthis step creates the space and
the room for lasting change thatyou're trying to make in your
classroom, in your school, inyour district, and it allows
(22:14):
initiatives to be moreeffectively integrated.
And then, you know, ensuringthe fidelity of implementation.
That's another crucial aspect,and this involves scaling the
program through comprehensiveprofessional development, like
Naomi stated earlier, as well asongoing supports for educators.
Your professional learning planshould never be a one like
touch and go.
(22:35):
You want to have a plan toscale and sustain, and so you
want to have a plan for thoseteachers that need ongoing
support, and it should lookdifferent for every teacher.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Thank you both so much for those tips.
The de-implementation yes, yes,yes.
Some more time needs to bespent in schools, just looking
at what's in front of them andwhat they can just be like this
does not add value for us.
We need to let it go.
Thank you, ladies, so much forthis episode.
(23:06):
It was really interesting tohear some of the research behind
programs and just the thoughtprocesses in the work that you
do.
So thank you for being with ustoday.
Speaker 5 (23:17):
Thank you so much, it was a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
This episode was brought to you by Age of
Learning, leading the way inlearning outcomes by helping
children everywhere build astrong foundation for academic
success and a lifelong love oflearning.
Find out more atageoflearningcom.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Be sure to join Tammy and Christine and guests for
more episodes of the MinimalistEducator podcast.
They would love to hear aboutyour journey with minimalism.
Connect with them at PlanZPLSon Twitter or Instagram.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
(24:00):
Gaia Moretti.
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