February 25, 2025 • 29 mins
Discover the transformative power of empathy in education with Dr. Tom Hoerr, a distinguished educator and author whose 37-year journey in educational leadership is nothing short of inspiring. As we discuss his insightful book, "The Principal as Chief Empathy Officer," Tom explains why empathy is not just a buzzword but a crucial element for nurturing growth among students and staff. Reflecting on our first encounter at a conference in Dubai, we unravel the profound impact of his "Formative Five" approach, which champions character and emotional intelligence over mere academic accolades. This episode promises to enlighten listeners on how fostering empathy can cultivate compassionate and responsible future citizens.
Explore the pivotal role of empathy in educational leadership within the framework of social emotional learning (SEL). We introduce an innovative virtual doctorate program centered on character development and leadership, reinforcing the idea that genuine leadership is about relationships grounded in trust and respect. From gathering honest feedback through surveys to embracing diversity without succumbing to initiative overload, Tom shares actionable strategies for embedding empathy in education. As educators, prioritizing self-care emerges as a critical theme, ensuring we’re equipped to support others. This episode is an essential listen for those aiming to create empathetic and inclusive learning environments.
Dr. Tom Hoerr led schools for 37 years and now teaches prospective principals at the University of Missouri-St. Louis, where he is a Scholar In Residence. Tom has written many articles – he was The Principal Connection columnist in Educational Leadership Magazine -- and seven books. He wrote about success skills in his Formative Five books, and his most recent book is The Principal As Chief Empathy Officer (all published by ASCD). He believes that school leaders, regardless of title or position, must bring empathy to all their interactions. The role of school leaders is to help everyone grow.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusialski-Borneman and Christine
Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
In this week's episode we speak with Dr Tom
Herr.
We talk about his role ineducation and leadership, the
books that he's written, as wellas a big emphasis on the role
of empathy in the work that hehas done.
Dr, Tom Herr led schools for 37years and now teaches
prospective principals at theUniversity of Missouri-St Louis,
where he is a scholar inresidence.
(00:56):
Tom has written many articles.
He was a Principal Connectioncolumnist in Educational
Leadership magazine and sevenbooks.
Columnist in EducationalLeadership Magazine and seven
books.
He wrote about success skillsin his formative five books and
his most recent book is thePrincipal as Chief Empathy
Officer, all published by ASCD.
He believes that school leaders, regardless of title or
(01:17):
position, must bring empathy toall their interactions.
The role of school leaders isto help everyone grow
interactions.
The role of school leaders isto help everyone grow.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Welcome everyone to this week's episode of the
minimalist educator podcast.
Today, christine and I aretalking with tom her, who's an
ascd author, longtime educatorand someone that I met um, I
want to say it was in 2017 at aconference in Dubai.
(01:48):
That was our first meeting, sowelcome to our podcast, tom.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Oh great, it is good to be here, and your memory is
right, it was Dubai and it was agood conference.
And the one thing I do know is,everywhere else I've been, it's
been cooler than being in Dubai.
Yeah right.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Yeah, it's a little bit hot there, that's for sure.
And how are you today,christine?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
I'm doing really well .
I'm excited to be here and haveanother great chat.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Yeah, I'm excited to you know, thinking back on, just
like when we meet people in ourjourney as educators.
It's a little bit crazy becauseChristine and I started
teaching in Singapore together10 years ago this year and I did
(02:41):
two years of full time teaching, so I quit the full time in
2017.
And then it was that fallOctober of 2017, that I went to
that conference in Dubai and butI was still living in Singapore
at the time.
So, christine, where I madeanother great connection that I
still have so you know, that'slike eight years ago already,
(03:01):
and or almost eight and Tom, atthat conference, I mean you've
got tons of experience ineducation.
So, like I should just pausefor a moment and let you talk a
(03:24):
little bit about your journeybefore I dig into the questions.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
And to the listeners while she's pausing, let me just
say that she says I have lotsof experience in education, and
that's really nice.
What that also means is, tom,you're really old.
So, yeah, I do have lots ofexperiences.
So, to come back to yourquestion, yeah, I'm a longtime
educator and I believe that theroles we have are the most
important in the world becausewe're changing the future.
(03:49):
We're really really having animpact on the lives of everybody
tomorrow, not just the kidswith whom we work.
I taught, I led schools for 37years, and one of the beauties
about that is I'm old enough andI did this long enough that
many of the kids that I firstencountered in kindergarten and
fifth grade they're adults andit's really fun talking with
(04:11):
them.
And it's not me, and I alwayssay that schools are important.
Families are more important.
The right parents are whatmatters most.
Semicolon, however, commaschools can help a lot.
Semicolon, however, commaschools can help a lot, and when
I talk to our kids, who are nowyoung adults, feel good because
they're the kind of people thatyou want to be around.
They're the kind of people whoview their role in society as an
(04:34):
important one.
They're the kinds of kids whowant to make a difference, and
that makes me feel very, verypleased.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
So thanks for just giving a little bit of
background there, tom.
But I mean you've done a lotmore in your career.
You've written a bunch of booksthat you know.
I've read them all because theinformation in them just really
can support teachers in theirjourney as teachers.
But also with that thinkingthat you know we're supporting
(05:01):
kids to become good citizens.
And so at that conference inDubai you were talking about the
formative five.
So can you give an outline ofwhat that is and kind of how
that's played out in your career?
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Sure, sure.
And let me begin by saying that, as I said, I led schools for
lots of years and I always, evenwhen I was a teacher, I
rebelled against the notion thattest scores should be the
be-all and end-all.
And you know, it's too easy foreducators not us but too easy
for politicians to view kids asstay-nines and they're important
(05:35):
based on the number.
I'm like that's wrong.
But I knew that as a teacher, Iknew that as a principal, I led
the New City School in St LouisMissouri for many years and we
were a multiple intelligenceschool and that got me really
into what Howard Gardner calledintrapersonal, interpersonal.
Then Daniel Goleman came alongwith what we now call emotional
intelligence, and so I developedthe formative five shorthand,
(06:06):
for this is very, very quick andthat is simply who you are is
more important than what youknow.
Let me say that again who youare is more important than what
you know.
That is not to denigrateacademics.
I'm a real pain on colons andsemicolons.
Kids need to learn how to read,write and calculate period.
However, that should be thefloor, not the ceiling.
What we should really be doingis helping kids become good
people.
I've been saying that for lotsand lots of years, and I would
(06:28):
argue that it is even morerelevant, more valid today, with
what's happening withtechnology.
Many of the tasks on which wefocus in school are important,
but guess what they're going tobe done by a computer.
What is not going to be done bya computer is caring for other
people, working to make adifference.
So I did lots and lots of work.
I did lots of reading anddeveloping the formative five.
(06:50):
As I said earlier, I led schoolso I could see my kids, my
students.
I could see students who wereseven and eight, who became 12
and 13, who became adults, andwhat I began to notice was that
the qualities which cause peopleto be successful in the world
are not only the ones that areon the back of the report card.
And so I read, I observed and Icame up with the formative five
(07:14):
, and I call these successskills because they're skills
that we need to succeed in theworld Empathy, self-control,
integrity, embracing diversityand grit.
And when I give presentationson this, I talk about empathy,
self-control, integrity,embracing diversity and grit.
Often, a question asked me iswell, you know which one's the
(07:35):
most important, and I give theflip answer you know which one
of your children do you like themost?
But the reality is, I beganwith empathy for a reason and,
tammy, as you said, when we metin 2017, I think the book had
just come out I would suggestthat empathy is even more
important in today's world thanit was back in 2017.
(07:55):
And one of the things thatfrustrates me about schools too
often and again, these decisionsare not made by us, they're
made by people who are in adistance is if you've got a kid
in first grade or second grade.
This kid's six, seven, eightyears old and she's having
(08:15):
reading problems.
Absolutely, we throw all kindsof resources at this kid to help
her learn to read, because weknow that kids who are not
reading a grade level by agethree, their trajectory is not a
good one.
We know that.
However, I would argue that wecan look at these same kids who
are six, seven and eight, and wecan ascertain whether or not
these kids have the socialskills they need, the emotional
intelligence that they need, andwe can, and should, then apply
(08:38):
those same resources.
We tend not to do that, though,and so what you will get are
kids who are off the tracksocial emotionally at age six or
seven, and they just continuein that way, and so, even if
they're successfulscholastically, I would argue
their life chances of successesaren't nearly as strong, and so
let me play with empathy for asecond and give you an example.
(09:00):
I appreciate your comment whenyou said about my books I've
written seven books and the factthat they're really directed
toward educators.
Again, I taught, I led schools.
I'm now teaching at theuniversity, preparing
prospective principals, but, asa K-12 educator, the last thing
I had was time, and so what Ineeded was something that could
help me, and so the books werewritten with that purpose, so
(09:22):
one of the examples that I givein my chapter on empathy.
My first grade teachers didthis, like most good leaders.
I was good because I had betterpeople around me.
They came up with this on theirown.
It was their idea.
They did it with first graders.
You could do it with any grade,you could even do it at a
faculty meeting.
So what they did is they spentsome time talking about emotions
(09:42):
and they had the kids generatethe list of kind of emotions
that you know we would knowHappy, angry, sad, surprised,
disappointed, frustrated and soforth and so on.
And they then had the kids sitin a semicircle around a chair
and they would take turns, andone child from the class would
come up and that child wouldactually sit behind a prop, so
(10:04):
that only his or her face wasshowing, and the kid sitting
behind that chair had a three byfive card, and then that card
there would be an emotion.
It might say happy, it mightsay angry or whatever, and what
that child had to do was make afacial expression to demonstrate
that emotion without sayinganything, and the other children
had to guess what it was bywhat they were seeing with the
(10:26):
face.
There's a classic way to teachinterpersonal intelligence.
The teachers said it wasamazing.
They said there were some kidswho were just spot on.
They could get an Academy Award.
There were other kids, however,who, regardless of what was on
that piece of paper had the samefacial expression.
They thought they were tryingto show something else and they
were unable to do that.
(10:46):
Likewise, there would be kidsin the audience their peers who
immediately knew what it was,and there'd be other kids who
could not discern that at all.
And what the teachers did, ofcourse, being good, wonderful
teachers, is they use that as alearning opportunity so they
could say Christine, you werereally right.
The cart does say surprise,what was she doing?
(11:07):
That you knew that?
And Christine could tell therest of the kids what it was.
So Tammy could hear that, couldlearn it, could understand it.
I would argue that that kind ofan activity and we did that
kind of thing in all the gradesall around, we believe in New
City School, where I said thepersonal intelligence is the
most important, but we believethat if you work on that, kids
(11:29):
are going to develop it and it'sgoing to be a life skill.
It's going to be again what Icall the success skill.
So that's the kind of thing Ithink that we need to be looking
more at in education.
In my work at University ofMissouri-St Louis, our graduate
program, we, by the way, we'restarting a virtual doctorate
next year.
If anybody's interested incharacter development, social
(11:50):
emotional learning andleadership, send you or me an
email.
I'll get them the information.
But in this doctoral program,one of the things about which
we're going to be talking ischaracter, and that is social
emotional learning by itself isamoral, not immoral.
It's amoral.
You could use it for good orill purpose.
So we're talking about usingsocial emotional learning for
(12:12):
the good purposes to make lifebetter for the people around you
and for yourself, to make apositive difference.
So that's my formative five andI can play with any of those.
Talk more about them, whateveryou think would be helpful to
our listeners.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
That's really cool.
I've never thought about itbeing amoral before.
That's a really interestingthing.
It could be for good or evil.
I've never really thought aboutthat before.
I'd love to hear, becauseyou've talked a lot there about
empathy and I know your mostrecent book is also with the
focus of empathy, but inleadership, in school leadership
so I'd love to hear a littlebit more about the role that you
(12:45):
feel empathy plays in ourschool leaders.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Well, I'd be happy to do that.
But let me say, as I always do,that I do a much better job of
talking about something thandoing it.
And so the book to which yourefer is called the Principal as
Chief Empathy Officer, and whatI'm really arguing is that
every educator, irrespective ofhis or her role, should be a
chief empathy officer, usingempathy and leadership.
And again, I wrote the book.
(13:10):
It's a good book, but it washard for me to write.
Because I'm writing it, I'mthinking I wish I'd done that.
I wish I'd done that better.
It's much easier to talk aboutit.
So the case I make in that booknot unlike who you are is more
important than what you know isthat leadership is all about
relationships.
We don't follow people becauseof their title.
I mean, they do what they tellus to do, but we don't really
(13:30):
follow them because of theirtitle.
We follow them because werespect them, because we trust
them, because they've respectedus, they've trusted us, they've
listened to us.
So when I talk about theprinciple of chief empathy
officer, playing with myformative five empathy, the case
I make is that leadership,again, is based on relationships
and that doesn't happen bysitting in your office with the
(13:54):
principal.
It doesn't happen by sitting atyour desk if you're a
department chair or a teamleader or whatever.
It happens by getting out andlistening and talking to other
people.
One of the things I do when Iwill do presentations on this is
you know, I'll have a crowd andI'll have everybody get out a
piece of paper or their iPad orwhatever and I'll say to them do
me a favor, write down at yourschool the initials of three to
(14:16):
five people with whom you talkmost frequently and you know
they quickly do that, whetherthey're a principal, third grade
teacher, high school scienceteacher, whatever.
And then I'll say all right,write down the initials of three
to five people with whom youdon't talk very much in your
building.
No surprise, that's harder todo.
And that's harder to do becausewe all live and work in a
(14:38):
bubble.
It's inevitable that in aschool building, whether it's
Singapore, whether it's St Louis, whether it's Dubai, that you
find out people who you find,people who are like you.
You know whether it's the sameage, same interests, maybe the
rooms are across the hall fromone another.
Chances are you agreeeducationally, you've got the
(14:58):
same view of the world.
Maybe it's that you don't likeyour principal, but you come
together for those kinds ofreasons and, particularly as a
school leader, you have to workagainst that, and that means you
consciously have to get out,walk around the building, get to
know people, get to talk topeople.
Again, I should have done muchmore of that than I did.
It's hard to do because whenyou leave your office the work
(15:21):
doesn't leave, it piles up.
But leading as a chief empathyofficer means taking the time to
actually practice empathy, andthat means you've got to know
people, understand them,appreciate them and then act on
them.
Act on them.
One of the misgivings I hearwhen I talk about empathy is
people think it's a word.
And sure it's a word, but it'sa word that means action.
(15:43):
If you have empathy for otherpeople, it's not enough that you
simply feel that.
That's emotional empathy.
It's not enough that youunderstand that.
That's cognitive empathy.
What you need to do is dosomething about it.
That's actionable empathy.
Okay, now that you've gotempathy, what are you going to
do?
These people disagree with you.
It's not enough to just say,well, they're wrong, even though
(16:04):
you may think they are.
What you need to say is why dothey think that.
What's that mean?
What does that look like?
In my book I talk about a coupleof the practices I did that I
think were pretty effective.
One is I use lots of surveysmore surveys probably than
anybody I know and I wouldsurvey my parents every year in
the spring.
I would survey my faculty acouple of times during the
(16:26):
school year anonymous surveysand one of the things I found if
you're listening to this, thismay be helpful if you're a
school administrator during myinitial years I would ask
teachers what are Tom'sstrengths, what are Tom's
weaknesses?
And I never got much of aresponse.
Not that I lacked weaknesses,but what I found then is if,
instead, I said to them whatshould your time Start doing?
(16:47):
What's your time Stop doing?
What's your time Continue doing?
All of a sudden I got all kindsof data.
They were comfortable doingthat, which was really helpful
to me.
So I did lots and lots ofsurveys.
In my book, one of the things Italk about is a mistake people
can make when do surveys isthey'll give surveys and they
don't follow up.
Even if they do what the surveysuggests, they don't articulate
(17:08):
it.
So one of the things I would do, for example, every spring at
the New City School I would do abig survey and then every fall
in a parent letter I would saythanks to those of you who
submitted survey informationlast spring.
I really appreciated it Goodideas.
Some of it was painful, but Ineeded to know.
Here are three things that I'mgoing to do based on those
surveys, and I would let peopleknow that and I might even say
(17:32):
interesting.
One of the surveys was that weneed to be more understanding of
families who arrive at schoollate because traffic is a
problem.
I get that, but no, we're notgoing to be more understanding.
That was a way of lettingpeople know that I had heard
them and I had listened to them.
The other thing that I did andin a way I think this probably
hopefully it's probablyrationalization on my part
(17:53):
counteracts with the fact that Iwasn't out of the office as
much as I should have been isthat several times a year I
would have breakfast with Tomand that would be on a morning a
PD morning, conference morning,something when we were starting
late and at 8 o'clock it wouldbe an optional breakfast and I
provide the donuts.
We'd meet in the library andI'd say to folks the agenda is
yours, what do we want to talkabout?
(18:13):
And I'd just sit down.
We'd be a semicircle.
I had a faculty of 45 to 50.
There typically would be 15, 18, 20, about a third.
And I would say, what do youwant to talk about?
And I would just wait.
And and I would say, what doyou want to talk about?
And I would just wait.
(18:34):
And it didn't take long.
After 20 or 30 seconds,somebody would say what about or
why, and we'd have a wonderfuldiscussion.
It was good for a couple ofreasons.
After I got over the fact thatI wanted to say to people that
was in the bulletin, didn't youread it?
Well, it would not have beenhelpful, right?
So they would ask that theywould make their point, but it
was good for me to know what wason people's minds.
It was also good for me becauseI was able to read the room, if
you will.
When somebody made a comment, Ilistened to him, but I could
(18:54):
also hear how many other peoplewere nodding.
I could also hear how manyother people were raising their
eyebrows, so I could hear thatthrough my eyes.
So it was a good way for me toget a sense of the pulse on the
room.
It also reminded teachers thatI was there for them, which I
was.
Tell me what I can do, what doesthis look like, and if you're
(19:14):
going to do this, if you'resomebody who's listening and
you're going to practice this, Ialways had in my back pocket a
way to start the meeting.
I probably did the breakfastwith Tom 30 times, 50 times, I'm
not sure.
And, by the way, I also everyyear would have a breakfast with
Tom at 4 pm, because I had somepeople who could barely make it
to school on time, much lessget there early.
So, breakfast with Tom at 4 pm,and you know what I learned?
(19:37):
Even at 4 o'clock, people eatdonuts in any event.
So I would have in my backpocket a story so I might say
tell me what's on your mind,what do you want to talk about?
Rarely, but occasionally 15, 20, it felt kind of trunny and I'd
sit there and finally I couldbite the bullet and say all
right, let me tell you what's onmy mind.
Here's what I'm worried about,and I could share a worry, share
(19:58):
a vulnerability, that that wasreally, really important.
The other thing I did and I didthis for years before I
stumbled across empathy in termsof the word and what it meant
and formulating the formativefive and all that kind of
business is.
Every year at the end of theschool year, teachers would come
in and they would get theirsummative end of year evaluation
(20:18):
and prior to that, I would askpeople to give me a piece of
paper, share with me candidlywhat went well for you, what was
frustrating for this year, whatwould you like to do
differently?
Because I really wanted them toreflect.
It was far more important thatthey reflected on their
performance candidly than theyheard what I had to say.
I wanted this to be aninteractive process and I wanted
(20:38):
to be able to work from whatthey said Generally.
Almost always, a couple truthsemerged.
One is this won't surprise thetwo of you teachers are
particularly self-critical.
Almost always, people praisethemselves less than I thought
should be the case.
Also, they were more criticalthan I thought should be the
(21:02):
case.
So this was a wonderfulopportunity for me to talk about
that and say well, hold on asecond, they should leave that
meeting feeling really good.
The other thing and this was apractice that I had and people
knew it is at the end of everymeeting I would say Christine,
what can I do to make your lifebetter?
And they knew that was comingand the wording was particularly
important.
(21:22):
I didn't say what can I do tohelp you be a better teacher?
What can I do to help you be abetter teacher?
What can I do to help you be abetter administrator?
So what can I do to help yourlife improve, to be better?
Because that opened the door.
I want to say, more often thanyou might imagine, but probably
not Quite often people wouldtalk about personal issues.
(21:43):
They were having something witha child of theirs, maybe with a
spouse, whatever, and often Icouldn't solve those.
But it was important.
They wanted me to know, youknow, and depending on the
conversation, I would say Ireally appreciate that you need
to help me.
Is this something you want meto try to solve with you to find
a solution?
I would just want me to hearyou and it was important for
(22:03):
them to be able to tell me whatrole they wanted me to play.
But those meetings were reallyproductive and they got to a
point where you know it wasroutine and I'd have my
interview we call themprofessional growth conferences
with every teachers and you know, often you know we'd be having
the meeting and I would say okay, and I'd look at the clock and
there's five minutes left.
I said this is really great.
I hope it was helpful for you.
(22:23):
It was really helpful for me.
I appreciate that Humaniststuff.
What can I do to make your lifebetter?
And they would open their purseor pull out their pocket and
they had written down on a pieceof paper.
Here are the three things.
It was really great for me tohear that.
And again, my job is not tomake everybody happy.
My job is to create a settingwhere everybody grows and
(22:46):
empathy is a key, key componentof that, because I need to know
who you are, what you value,what's important to you and how
I can help you.
You know I may not agree witheverything, but we need to get
aligned and we start by metaking the time to appreciate,
to understand and to work withyou.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Yeah, I certainly appreciate and I know Christine
does as well just the the focuson your people and spending the
time.
You know, having all these waysto build empathy and just
listen in to what what peopleneeded to say, and that it feels
so simple, right, like justreally just focus on your people
(23:27):
, build the relationships,listen and like that's just such
a strong culture building piecethat you know it's.
It's easy to let it go when youget caught up in the rat race
of all the things, but somethingthat I was wondering was is
there one of the five or theother four?
(23:47):
Then that's a little bit harderto work on with your staff.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Well, yeah, and let me just throw in a thought.
When you talk about how easy itis and of course we know it's
not easy One of the things is asubsequent book I wrote in fact
I think it was the book betweenthe formative five and principal
or chief empathy officer.
I wrote a book called TakingSocial Emotional Learning
Schoolwide and I used a model ofculture there, because what I
(24:13):
heard after the format of five,everybody agreed but they said
we don't have the time.
So, as we're doing what I'msaying all that now to you,
tammy, is one of the things Ihad very heavily in.
That was the importance ofvocabulary.
So if you're going to be usingempathy, if that's your forte,
and when I get presentations Isay to people don't try to do
all five of these at once, goslowly.
(24:34):
If you're a teacher and youwant to embed empathy in your
curriculum, do that for asemester.
Do that from now until springbreak.
If you're a principal, pick onefor the year.
The worst thing we can do istry to do too many and overwhelm
ourselves.
And when you pick that one, youuse the term a lot.
It's accountability when I sayI'm going to lead with empathy
and my faculty hears that thatraises the ante.
(24:55):
They know that's something Iwant to do.
That's an expectation.
If you're a classroom teacherand you want to teach your kids
empathy, you talk about that.
It's on the board, it's there.
To your question is thereanyone that's particularly
harder?
Unfortunately, I think probablyembracing diversity is the one
that has become terriblypoliticized.
If you think back to theformative five, when I wrote
(25:21):
them again, I was writing in2015.
I wrote about empathy,self-control, integrity,
embracing diversity and grit.
Well, embracing diversity isthe only one with two words, and
that's because back then, evenin 2015, I thought it wasn't
enough to say diversity, we needto do embrace diversity.
We don't tolerate it, we don'taccept it, we embrace it.
Well, politically, that's becomea hot button and I would argue
(25:45):
that's unfortunate becauseeverything you read all the work
Google has done, tons and tonsof work on problem-solving teams
, what makes them effective andwhat we know is that diversity
makes teams better.
Now there's a diversity ofdiversities, you know.
There certainly is race, whichwe see, gender, which we see,
but there's also things likeeducational, training, age,
philosophy.
When people come together withdifferent backgrounds,
(26:06):
perspectives, with differentdiversities, it makes it more
difficult to get to the answer,but that answer is a better
answer, and so when I givepresentations to schools or
conferences, I talk veryspecifically about things you
can do to embrace diversity evenin these politically tenuous
times.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Wow, I feel like I'm a little sponge here, just
soaking up all of the wisdom atthe moment.
So thank you for all of that,but unfortunately we do have to
start wrapping up the episode.
So what we like to do at theend of each of our episodes is
to ask for a pare down pointer,so something that will help
anyone in education or just intheir lives in general.
Just to pare back and simplify,strategise a little bit.
(26:49):
Do you have anything that youcan share with us?
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Well, coming back to Tammy's point about what's easy,
that's not easy.
I've given a whole lot of ideas, but I would end by saying that
the people who are listening tothis podcast, what I would like
them to do when they stoplistening after they think, well
, that guy was interesting.
Hopefully I'd like them tothink what can I do to take care
of myself?
It's too easy and educators aregreat at this, greats in quotes
(27:16):
it's too easy to give all ofyour time to everybody else and
to take everybody else andforget yourself.
You know we talk about anempathy deficit and what I don't
want people to do is get allcharged from this, come back and
not take care of themselves.
So two things.
One is, if you get all charged,can't do it by yourself.
Talk to somebody else, pick oneidea that I talked about and
(27:39):
think, hey, what do you think ofthis, and play with it.
You probably change it andthat's good.
But then your second thing isto say, okay, how much time am I
spending on my job?
And that isn't just in thebuilding, it's emotionally.
What does this look like?
What does this feel like?
What do I do to need to takecare of myself?
It's a marathon, it's not asprint and unfortunately, if you
don't take care of yourself,it's also hard for other people
(28:01):
to take care of you.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
Thank you so much, tom, for all of your wisdom.
I think we're going to have toschedule a part two with you,
because there's just so much totalk about, and you know,
especially the embracingdiversity, because it is such.
It is politically charged, butit's essential.
In the world that we're in, wejust this is we need to embrace
(28:26):
each other and work with eachother's strengths, and so we'll
definitely schedule a futuretime to continue the
conversation.
But thank you so much for beingwith us today.
I can't wait for our listenersto hear this episode.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Hey, thanks for the invitation.
Everybody, Take care ofyourself.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Today's episode was brought to you by Plan Z
Professional Learning Servicesforward-thinking educator
support.
Find out more atplanzplservicescom.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Be sure to join Tammy and Christine and guests for
more episodes of the MinimalistEducator Podcast.
They would love to hear aboutyour journey with minimalism.
Connect with them at planzPLSon Twitter or Instagram.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
Gaia Moretti.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusialski-Borneman and Christine
Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
In this week's episode we speak with Dr Tom
Herr.
We talk about his role ineducation and leadership, the
books that he's written, as wellas a big emphasis on the role
of empathy in the work that hehas done.
Dr, Tom Herr led schools for 37years and now teaches
prospective principals at theUniversity of Missouri-St Louis,
where he is a scholar inresidence.
(00:56):
Tom has written many articles.
He was a Principal Connectioncolumnist in Educational
Leadership magazine and sevenbooks.
Columnist in EducationalLeadership Magazine and seven
books.
He wrote about success skillsin his formative five books and
his most recent book is thePrincipal as Chief Empathy
Officer, all published by ASCD.
He believes that school leaders, regardless of title or
(01:17):
position, must bring empathy toall their interactions.
The role of school leaders isto help everyone grow
interactions.
The role of school leaders isto help everyone grow.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
Welcome everyone to this week's episode of the
minimalist educator podcast.
Today, christine and I aretalking with tom her, who's an
ascd author, longtime educatorand someone that I met um, I
want to say it was in 2017 at aconference in Dubai.
(01:48):
That was our first meeting, sowelcome to our podcast, tom.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Oh great, it is good to be here, and your memory is
right, it was Dubai and it was agood conference.
And the one thing I do know is,everywhere else I've been, it's
been cooler than being in Dubai.
Yeah right.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Yeah, it's a little bit hot there, that's for sure.
And how are you today,christine?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
I'm doing really well .
I'm excited to be here and haveanother great chat.
Speaker 4 (02:20):
Yeah, I'm excited to you know, thinking back on, just
like when we meet people in ourjourney as educators.
It's a little bit crazy becauseChristine and I started
teaching in Singapore together10 years ago this year and I did
(02:41):
two years of full time teaching, so I quit the full time in
2017.
And then it was that fallOctober of 2017, that I went to
that conference in Dubai and butI was still living in Singapore
at the time.
So, christine, where I madeanother great connection that I
still have so you know, that'slike eight years ago already,
(03:01):
and or almost eight and Tom, atthat conference, I mean you've
got tons of experience ineducation.
So, like I should just pausefor a moment and let you talk a
(03:24):
little bit about your journeybefore I dig into the questions.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
And to the listeners while she's pausing, let me just
say that she says I have lotsof experience in education, and
that's really nice.
What that also means is, tom,you're really old.
So, yeah, I do have lots ofexperiences.
So, to come back to yourquestion, yeah, I'm a longtime
educator and I believe that theroles we have are the most
important in the world becausewe're changing the future.
(03:49):
We're really really having animpact on the lives of everybody
tomorrow, not just the kidswith whom we work.
I taught, I led schools for 37years, and one of the beauties
about that is I'm old enough andI did this long enough that
many of the kids that I firstencountered in kindergarten and
fifth grade they're adults andit's really fun talking with
(04:11):
them.
And it's not me, and I alwayssay that schools are important.
Families are more important.
The right parents are whatmatters most.
Semicolon, however, commaschools can help a lot.
Semicolon, however, commaschools can help a lot, and when
I talk to our kids, who are nowyoung adults, feel good because
they're the kind of people thatyou want to be around.
They're the kind of people whoview their role in society as an
(04:34):
important one.
They're the kinds of kids whowant to make a difference, and
that makes me feel very, verypleased.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
So thanks for just giving a little bit of
background there, tom.
But I mean you've done a lotmore in your career.
You've written a bunch of booksthat you know.
I've read them all because theinformation in them just really
can support teachers in theirjourney as teachers.
But also with that thinkingthat you know we're supporting
(05:01):
kids to become good citizens.
And so at that conference inDubai you were talking about the
formative five.
So can you give an outline ofwhat that is and kind of how
that's played out in your career?
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Sure, sure.
And let me begin by saying that, as I said, I led schools for
lots of years and I always, evenwhen I was a teacher, I
rebelled against the notion thattest scores should be the
be-all and end-all.
And you know, it's too easy foreducators not us but too easy
for politicians to view kids asstay-nines and they're important
(05:35):
based on the number.
I'm like that's wrong.
But I knew that as a teacher, Iknew that as a principal, I led
the New City School in St LouisMissouri for many years and we
were a multiple intelligenceschool and that got me really
into what Howard Gardner calledintrapersonal, interpersonal.
Then Daniel Goleman came alongwith what we now call emotional
intelligence, and so I developedthe formative five shorthand,
(06:06):
for this is very, very quick andthat is simply who you are is
more important than what youknow.
Let me say that again who youare is more important than what
you know.
That is not to denigrateacademics.
I'm a real pain on colons andsemicolons.
Kids need to learn how to read,write and calculate period.
However, that should be thefloor, not the ceiling.
What we should really be doingis helping kids become good
people.
I've been saying that for lotsand lots of years, and I would
(06:28):
argue that it is even morerelevant, more valid today, with
what's happening withtechnology.
Many of the tasks on which wefocus in school are important,
but guess what they're going tobe done by a computer.
What is not going to be done bya computer is caring for other
people, working to make adifference.
So I did lots and lots of work.
I did lots of reading anddeveloping the formative five.
(06:50):
As I said earlier, I led schoolso I could see my kids, my
students.
I could see students who wereseven and eight, who became 12
and 13, who became adults, andwhat I began to notice was that
the qualities which cause peopleto be successful in the world
are not only the ones that areon the back of the report card.
And so I read, I observed and Icame up with the formative five
(07:14):
, and I call these successskills because they're skills
that we need to succeed in theworld Empathy, self-control,
integrity, embracing diversityand grit.
And when I give presentationson this, I talk about empathy,
self-control, integrity,embracing diversity and grit.
Often, a question asked me iswell, you know which one's the
(07:35):
most important, and I give theflip answer you know which one
of your children do you like themost?
But the reality is, I beganwith empathy for a reason and,
tammy, as you said, when we metin 2017, I think the book had
just come out I would suggestthat empathy is even more
important in today's world thanit was back in 2017.
(07:55):
And one of the things thatfrustrates me about schools too
often and again, these decisionsare not made by us, they're
made by people who are in adistance is if you've got a kid
in first grade or second grade.
This kid's six, seven, eightyears old and she's having
(08:15):
reading problems.
Absolutely, we throw all kindsof resources at this kid to help
her learn to read, because weknow that kids who are not
reading a grade level by agethree, their trajectory is not a
good one.
We know that.
However, I would argue that wecan look at these same kids who
are six, seven and eight, and wecan ascertain whether or not
these kids have the socialskills they need, the emotional
intelligence that they need, andwe can, and should, then apply
(08:38):
those same resources.
We tend not to do that, though,and so what you will get are
kids who are off the tracksocial emotionally at age six or
seven, and they just continuein that way, and so, even if
they're successfulscholastically, I would argue
their life chances of successesaren't nearly as strong, and so
let me play with empathy for asecond and give you an example.
(09:00):
I appreciate your comment whenyou said about my books I've
written seven books and the factthat they're really directed
toward educators.
Again, I taught, I led schools.
I'm now teaching at theuniversity, preparing
prospective principals, but, asa K-12 educator, the last thing
I had was time, and so what Ineeded was something that could
help me, and so the books werewritten with that purpose, so
(09:22):
one of the examples that I givein my chapter on empathy.
My first grade teachers didthis, like most good leaders.
I was good because I had betterpeople around me.
They came up with this on theirown.
It was their idea.
They did it with first graders.
You could do it with any grade,you could even do it at a
faculty meeting.
So what they did is they spentsome time talking about emotions
(09:42):
and they had the kids generatethe list of kind of emotions
that you know we would knowHappy, angry, sad, surprised,
disappointed, frustrated and soforth and so on.
And they then had the kids sitin a semicircle around a chair
and they would take turns, andone child from the class would
come up and that child wouldactually sit behind a prop, so
(10:04):
that only his or her face wasshowing, and the kid sitting
behind that chair had a three byfive card, and then that card
there would be an emotion.
It might say happy, it mightsay angry or whatever, and what
that child had to do was make afacial expression to demonstrate
that emotion without sayinganything, and the other children
had to guess what it was bywhat they were seeing with the
(10:26):
face.
There's a classic way to teachinterpersonal intelligence.
The teachers said it wasamazing.
They said there were some kidswho were just spot on.
They could get an Academy Award.
There were other kids, however,who, regardless of what was on
that piece of paper had the samefacial expression.
They thought they were tryingto show something else and they
were unable to do that.
(10:46):
Likewise, there would be kidsin the audience their peers who
immediately knew what it was,and there'd be other kids who
could not discern that at all.
And what the teachers did, ofcourse, being good, wonderful
teachers, is they use that as alearning opportunity so they
could say Christine, you werereally right.
The cart does say surprise,what was she doing?
(11:07):
That you knew that?
And Christine could tell therest of the kids what it was.
So Tammy could hear that, couldlearn it, could understand it.
I would argue that that kind ofan activity and we did that
kind of thing in all the gradesall around, we believe in New
City School, where I said thepersonal intelligence is the
most important, but we believethat if you work on that, kids
(11:29):
are going to develop it and it'sgoing to be a life skill.
It's going to be again what Icall the success skill.
So that's the kind of thing Ithink that we need to be looking
more at in education.
In my work at University ofMissouri-St Louis, our graduate
program, we, by the way, we'restarting a virtual doctorate
next year.
If anybody's interested incharacter development, social
(11:50):
emotional learning andleadership, send you or me an
email.
I'll get them the information.
But in this doctoral program,one of the things about which
we're going to be talking ischaracter, and that is social
emotional learning by itself isamoral, not immoral.
It's amoral.
You could use it for good orill purpose.
So we're talking about usingsocial emotional learning for
(12:12):
the good purposes to make lifebetter for the people around you
and for yourself, to make apositive difference.
So that's my formative five andI can play with any of those.
Talk more about them, whateveryou think would be helpful to
our listeners.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
That's really cool.
I've never thought about itbeing amoral before.
That's a really interestingthing.
It could be for good or evil.
I've never really thought aboutthat before.
I'd love to hear, becauseyou've talked a lot there about
empathy and I know your mostrecent book is also with the
focus of empathy, but inleadership, in school leadership
so I'd love to hear a littlebit more about the role that you
(12:45):
feel empathy plays in ourschool leaders.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Well, I'd be happy to do that.
But let me say, as I always do,that I do a much better job of
talking about something thandoing it.
And so the book to which yourefer is called the Principal as
Chief Empathy Officer, and whatI'm really arguing is that
every educator, irrespective ofhis or her role, should be a
chief empathy officer, usingempathy and leadership.
And again, I wrote the book.
(13:10):
It's a good book, but it washard for me to write.
Because I'm writing it, I'mthinking I wish I'd done that.
I wish I'd done that better.
It's much easier to talk aboutit.
So the case I make in that booknot unlike who you are is more
important than what you know isthat leadership is all about
relationships.
We don't follow people becauseof their title.
I mean, they do what they tellus to do, but we don't really
(13:30):
follow them because of theirtitle.
We follow them because werespect them, because we trust
them, because they've respectedus, they've trusted us, they've
listened to us.
So when I talk about theprinciple of chief empathy
officer, playing with myformative five empathy, the case
I make is that leadership,again, is based on relationships
and that doesn't happen bysitting in your office with the
(13:54):
principal.
It doesn't happen by sitting atyour desk if you're a
department chair or a teamleader or whatever.
It happens by getting out andlistening and talking to other
people.
One of the things I do when Iwill do presentations on this is
you know, I'll have a crowd andI'll have everybody get out a
piece of paper or their iPad orwhatever and I'll say to them do
me a favor, write down at yourschool the initials of three to
(14:16):
five people with whom you talkmost frequently and you know
they quickly do that, whetherthey're a principal, third grade
teacher, high school scienceteacher, whatever.
And then I'll say all right,write down the initials of three
to five people with whom youdon't talk very much in your
building.
No surprise, that's harder todo.
And that's harder to do becausewe all live and work in a
(14:38):
bubble.
It's inevitable that in aschool building, whether it's
Singapore, whether it's St Louis, whether it's Dubai, that you
find out people who you find,people who are like you.
You know whether it's the sameage, same interests, maybe the
rooms are across the hall fromone another.
Chances are you agreeeducationally, you've got the
(14:58):
same view of the world.
Maybe it's that you don't likeyour principal, but you come
together for those kinds ofreasons and, particularly as a
school leader, you have to workagainst that, and that means you
consciously have to get out,walk around the building, get to
know people, get to talk topeople.
Again, I should have done muchmore of that than I did.
It's hard to do because whenyou leave your office the work
(15:21):
doesn't leave, it piles up.
But leading as a chief empathyofficer means taking the time to
actually practice empathy, andthat means you've got to know
people, understand them,appreciate them and then act on
them.
Act on them.
One of the misgivings I hearwhen I talk about empathy is
people think it's a word.
And sure it's a word, but it'sa word that means action.
(15:43):
If you have empathy for otherpeople, it's not enough that you
simply feel that.
That's emotional empathy.
It's not enough that youunderstand that.
That's cognitive empathy.
What you need to do is dosomething about it.
That's actionable empathy.
Okay, now that you've gotempathy, what are you going to
do?
These people disagree with you.
It's not enough to just say,well, they're wrong, even though
(16:04):
you may think they are.
What you need to say is why dothey think that.
What's that mean?
What does that look like?
In my book I talk about a coupleof the practices I did that I
think were pretty effective.
One is I use lots of surveysmore surveys probably than
anybody I know and I wouldsurvey my parents every year in
the spring.
I would survey my faculty acouple of times during the
(16:26):
school year anonymous surveysand one of the things I found if
you're listening to this, thismay be helpful if you're a
school administrator during myinitial years I would ask
teachers what are Tom'sstrengths, what are Tom's
weaknesses?
And I never got much of aresponse.
Not that I lacked weaknesses,but what I found then is if,
instead, I said to them whatshould your time Start doing?
(16:47):
What's your time Stop doing?
What's your time Continue doing?
All of a sudden I got all kindsof data.
They were comfortable doingthat, which was really helpful
to me.
So I did lots and lots ofsurveys.
In my book, one of the things Italk about is a mistake people
can make when do surveys isthey'll give surveys and they
don't follow up.
Even if they do what the surveysuggests, they don't articulate
(17:08):
it.
So one of the things I would do, for example, every spring at
the New City School I would do abig survey and then every fall
in a parent letter I would saythanks to those of you who
submitted survey informationlast spring.
I really appreciated it Goodideas.
Some of it was painful, but Ineeded to know.
Here are three things that I'mgoing to do based on those
surveys, and I would let peopleknow that and I might even say
(17:32):
interesting.
One of the surveys was that weneed to be more understanding of
families who arrive at schoollate because traffic is a
problem.
I get that, but no, we're notgoing to be more understanding.
That was a way of lettingpeople know that I had heard
them and I had listened to them.
The other thing that I did andin a way I think this probably
hopefully it's probablyrationalization on my part
(17:53):
counteracts with the fact that Iwasn't out of the office as
much as I should have been isthat several times a year I
would have breakfast with Tomand that would be on a morning a
PD morning, conference morning,something when we were starting
late and at 8 o'clock it wouldbe an optional breakfast and I
provide the donuts.
We'd meet in the library andI'd say to folks the agenda is
yours, what do we want to talkabout?
(18:13):
And I'd just sit down.
We'd be a semicircle.
I had a faculty of 45 to 50.
There typically would be 15, 18, 20, about a third.
And I would say, what do youwant to talk about?
And I would just wait.
And and I would say, what doyou want to talk about?
And I would just wait.
(18:34):
And it didn't take long.
After 20 or 30 seconds,somebody would say what about or
why, and we'd have a wonderfuldiscussion.
It was good for a couple ofreasons.
After I got over the fact thatI wanted to say to people that
was in the bulletin, didn't youread it?
Well, it would not have beenhelpful, right?
So they would ask that theywould make their point, but it
was good for me to know what wason people's minds.
It was also good for me becauseI was able to read the room, if
you will.
When somebody made a comment, Ilistened to him, but I could
(18:54):
also hear how many other peoplewere nodding.
I could also hear how manyother people were raising their
eyebrows, so I could hear thatthrough my eyes.
So it was a good way for me toget a sense of the pulse on the
room.
It also reminded teachers thatI was there for them, which I
was.
Tell me what I can do, what doesthis look like, and if you're
(19:14):
going to do this, if you'resomebody who's listening and
you're going to practice this, Ialways had in my back pocket a
way to start the meeting.
I probably did the breakfastwith Tom 30 times, 50 times, I'm
not sure.
And, by the way, I also everyyear would have a breakfast with
Tom at 4 pm, because I had somepeople who could barely make it
to school on time, much lessget there early.
So, breakfast with Tom at 4 pm,and you know what I learned?
(19:37):
Even at 4 o'clock, people eatdonuts in any event.
So I would have in my backpocket a story so I might say
tell me what's on your mind,what do you want to talk about?
Rarely, but occasionally 15, 20, it felt kind of trunny and I'd
sit there and finally I couldbite the bullet and say all
right, let me tell you what's onmy mind.
Here's what I'm worried about,and I could share a worry, share
(19:58):
a vulnerability, that that wasreally, really important.
The other thing I did and I didthis for years before I
stumbled across empathy in termsof the word and what it meant
and formulating the formativefive and all that kind of
business is.
Every year at the end of theschool year, teachers would come
in and they would get theirsummative end of year evaluation
(20:18):
and prior to that, I would askpeople to give me a piece of
paper, share with me candidlywhat went well for you, what was
frustrating for this year, whatwould you like to do
differently?
Because I really wanted them toreflect.
It was far more important thatthey reflected on their
performance candidly than theyheard what I had to say.
I wanted this to be aninteractive process and I wanted
(20:38):
to be able to work from whatthey said Generally.
Almost always, a couple truthsemerged.
One is this won't surprise thetwo of you teachers are
particularly self-critical.
Almost always, people praisethemselves less than I thought
should be the case.
Also, they were more criticalthan I thought should be the
(21:02):
case.
So this was a wonderfulopportunity for me to talk about
that and say well, hold on asecond, they should leave that
meeting feeling really good.
The other thing and this was apractice that I had and people
knew it is at the end of everymeeting I would say Christine,
what can I do to make your lifebetter?
And they knew that was comingand the wording was particularly
important.
(21:22):
I didn't say what can I do tohelp you be a better teacher?
What can I do to help you be abetter teacher?
What can I do to help you be abetter administrator?
So what can I do to help yourlife improve, to be better?
Because that opened the door.
I want to say, more often thanyou might imagine, but probably
not Quite often people wouldtalk about personal issues.
(21:43):
They were having something witha child of theirs, maybe with a
spouse, whatever, and often Icouldn't solve those.
But it was important.
They wanted me to know, youknow, and depending on the
conversation, I would say Ireally appreciate that you need
to help me.
Is this something you want meto try to solve with you to find
a solution?
I would just want me to hearyou and it was important for
(22:03):
them to be able to tell me whatrole they wanted me to play.
But those meetings were reallyproductive and they got to a
point where you know it wasroutine and I'd have my
interview we call themprofessional growth conferences
with every teachers and you know, often you know we'd be having
the meeting and I would say okay, and I'd look at the clock and
there's five minutes left.
I said this is really great.
I hope it was helpful for you.
(22:23):
It was really helpful for me.
I appreciate that Humaniststuff.
What can I do to make your lifebetter?
And they would open their purseor pull out their pocket and
they had written down on a pieceof paper.
Here are the three things.
It was really great for me tohear that.
And again, my job is not tomake everybody happy.
My job is to create a settingwhere everybody grows and
(22:46):
empathy is a key, key componentof that, because I need to know
who you are, what you value,what's important to you and how
I can help you.
You know I may not agree witheverything, but we need to get
aligned and we start by metaking the time to appreciate,
to understand and to work withyou.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Yeah, I certainly appreciate and I know Christine
does as well just the the focuson your people and spending the
time.
You know, having all these waysto build empathy and just
listen in to what what peopleneeded to say, and that it feels
so simple, right, like justreally just focus on your people
(23:27):
, build the relationships,listen and like that's just such
a strong culture building piecethat you know it's.
It's easy to let it go when youget caught up in the rat race
of all the things, but somethingthat I was wondering was is
there one of the five or theother four?
(23:47):
Then that's a little bit harderto work on with your staff.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Well, yeah, and let me just throw in a thought.
When you talk about how easy itis and of course we know it's
not easy One of the things is asubsequent book I wrote in fact
I think it was the book betweenthe formative five and principal
or chief empathy officer.
I wrote a book called TakingSocial Emotional Learning
Schoolwide and I used a model ofculture there, because what I
(24:13):
heard after the format of five,everybody agreed but they said
we don't have the time.
So, as we're doing what I'msaying all that now to you,
tammy, is one of the things Ihad very heavily in.
That was the importance ofvocabulary.
So if you're going to be usingempathy, if that's your forte,
and when I get presentations Isay to people don't try to do
all five of these at once, goslowly.
(24:34):
If you're a teacher and youwant to embed empathy in your
curriculum, do that for asemester.
Do that from now until springbreak.
If you're a principal, pick onefor the year.
The worst thing we can do istry to do too many and overwhelm
ourselves.
And when you pick that one, youuse the term a lot.
It's accountability when I sayI'm going to lead with empathy
and my faculty hears that thatraises the ante.
(24:55):
They know that's something Iwant to do.
That's an expectation.
If you're a classroom teacherand you want to teach your kids
empathy, you talk about that.
It's on the board, it's there.
To your question is thereanyone that's particularly
harder?
Unfortunately, I think probablyembracing diversity is the one
that has become terriblypoliticized.
If you think back to theformative five, when I wrote
(25:21):
them again, I was writing in2015.
I wrote about empathy,self-control, integrity,
embracing diversity and grit.
Well, embracing diversity isthe only one with two words, and
that's because back then, evenin 2015, I thought it wasn't
enough to say diversity, we needto do embrace diversity.
We don't tolerate it, we don'taccept it, we embrace it.
Well, politically, that's becomea hot button and I would argue
(25:45):
that's unfortunate becauseeverything you read all the work
Google has done, tons and tonsof work on problem-solving teams
, what makes them effective andwhat we know is that diversity
makes teams better.
Now there's a diversity ofdiversities, you know.
There certainly is race, whichwe see, gender, which we see,
but there's also things likeeducational, training, age,
philosophy.
When people come together withdifferent backgrounds,
(26:06):
perspectives, with differentdiversities, it makes it more
difficult to get to the answer,but that answer is a better
answer, and so when I givepresentations to schools or
conferences, I talk veryspecifically about things you
can do to embrace diversity evenin these politically tenuous
times.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Wow, I feel like I'm a little sponge here, just
soaking up all of the wisdom atthe moment.
So thank you for all of that,but unfortunately we do have to
start wrapping up the episode.
So what we like to do at theend of each of our episodes is
to ask for a pare down pointer,so something that will help
anyone in education or just intheir lives in general.
Just to pare back and simplify,strategise a little bit.
(26:49):
Do you have anything that youcan share with us?
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Well, coming back to Tammy's point about what's easy,
that's not easy.
I've given a whole lot of ideas, but I would end by saying that
the people who are listening tothis podcast, what I would like
them to do when they stoplistening after they think, well
, that guy was interesting.
Hopefully I'd like them tothink what can I do to take care
of myself?
It's too easy and educators aregreat at this, greats in quotes
(27:16):
it's too easy to give all ofyour time to everybody else and
to take everybody else andforget yourself.
You know we talk about anempathy deficit and what I don't
want people to do is get allcharged from this, come back and
not take care of themselves.
So two things.
One is, if you get all charged,can't do it by yourself.
Talk to somebody else, pick oneidea that I talked about and
(27:39):
think, hey, what do you think ofthis, and play with it.
You probably change it andthat's good.
But then your second thing isto say, okay, how much time am I
spending on my job?
And that isn't just in thebuilding, it's emotionally.
What does this look like?
What does this feel like?
What do I do to need to takecare of myself?
It's a marathon, it's not asprint and unfortunately, if you
don't take care of yourself,it's also hard for other people
(28:01):
to take care of you.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
Thank you so much, tom, for all of your wisdom.
I think we're going to have toschedule a part two with you,
because there's just so much totalk about, and you know,
especially the embracingdiversity, because it is such.
It is politically charged, butit's essential.
In the world that we're in, wejust this is we need to embrace
(28:26):
each other and work with eachother's strengths, and so we'll
definitely schedule a futuretime to continue the
conversation.
But thank you so much for beingwith us today.
I can't wait for our listenersto hear this episode.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Hey, thanks for the invitation.
Everybody, Take care ofyourself.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Today's episode was brought to you by Plan Z
Professional Learning Servicesforward-thinking educator
support.
Find out more atplanzplservicescom.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Be sure to join Tammy and Christine and guests for
more episodes of the MinimalistEducator Podcast.
They would love to hear aboutyour journey with minimalism.
Connect with them at planzPLSon Twitter or Instagram.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
Gaia Moretti.
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