Dr. Michele Ogden shares her journey from elementary principal back to the classroom, highlighting the importance of aligning career choices with personal strengths and sources of joy. Her story challenges traditional career progression narratives, demonstrating how finding the right fit can enhance wellbeing and professional satisfaction.
• Former elementary principal who returned to teaching second and third grade
• Experienced burnout during COVID with high blood pressure, insomnia and anxiety from administrative demands
• Found greater purpose and joy working directly with students all day
• Brought valuable leadership skills from administration into classroom teaching
• Creates consistent routines, calm environment and strong community in her classroom
• Emphasizes the importance of joyful connections with both students and colleagues
• Philosophy of making students sad when they miss school - creating positive FOMO
• Wisdom: "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should"
• Encourages educators to reflect on what energizes them versus what drains them
This episode is sponsored by Joyful Learning Connections.
Buy The Minimalist Teacher book from ASCD+ISTE.
Follow on Instagram @PlanZEducation and @minimalist_ed_podcast.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast is a Plan Z Education Services adventure.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusiewski-Borneman and Christine
Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Today we are joined by Michelle Ogden.
Michelle chats with us abouther experiences going from a
principal back into a classroomteaching role.
Michelle Ogden is a teacherleader in the Irvine Unified
School District with experienceas an elementary principal, k-12
, math and science coordinatorand teacher.
She's led professional learningat district and site levels and
(00:57):
presented nationally on schoolculture, math, education
technology and relationshipbuilding.
A first generation collegegraduate, she earned her Ed
Doctorate from the University ofSouthern California.
She is an ASCD Emerging Leaderfrom 2014 and has served on the
boards of California ASCD andASCD Emerging Leaders.
Passionate about whole childeducation, ogden is dedicated to
(01:21):
fostering joyful, impactfullearning experiences for all
students.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode
of the Minimalist EducatorPodcast.
Today, christine and I aretalking to a wonderful educator
named Michelle Ogden.
She and I go back quite a longtime now over a decade and so
we're excited to have her onthis week to talk about some
(01:49):
changes that she's had in herrole as an educator.
How are you today, michelle?
Speaker 4 (01:54):
I am doing great.
I am so happy to be here withboth of you.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Thank you.
How are you, Christine?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I'm very good.
I'm happy to be here and havinganother chat and meeting
Michelle finally.
Yay, I've been looking forwardto this.
I've very good.
I'm happy to be here and havinganother chat and meeting
Michelle finally.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yay, I've been looking forward to this.
I've listened to you guys forquite a while now, so I am so
excited to actually get to meetyou.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
We're excited that you listen to the podcast.
It really motivates us when wesee downloads and know that
people are listening to so manywise words from people that
we've had on the show.
So we're really excited to haveyou here and share with us some
of the things that you've gonethrough as an educator.
(02:35):
So can you just give us a quicksynopsis of, because you've
been in a few different rolesover time?
So can you just give us like aquick journey of your time as an
educator?
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Yes, absolutely so.
Currently I am a second andthird grade teacher and a math
mentor for our district forelementary grades, but before
that I've had quite a fewdifferent roles.
I was an elementary schoolprincipal for six years.
I was a math and sciencecoordinator for our school
district and that was K-12during the time where Common
(03:12):
Core had just started and wewere going through a lot of big
changes and before that I was afirst grade teacher.
So I've had varied experiences.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
After staying at home for eight years in between my
first couple of years ofteaching, that's a lot of role
changing in the span of aneducator's journey, which I
think is like common for a lotof people.
You know you want to try outsome different roles, and so can
we talk a little bit about yourprincipalship and then shifting
(03:45):
back into the classroom.
So you were an elementaryschool principal during such a
rough time during COVID,pre-covid and during COVID, so
can you talk to us a little bitabout that experience?
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Yeah, being a principal during COVID was very
different than before.
I think when I went into beinga principal.
One of the things I reallyloved about that was the idea
that I could have instructionalleadership, a role in a school
and impact you know, the greatergood of everybody.
And I did love being back at aschool site.
Before that I was at thedistrict office and I missed
(04:21):
being around the kids.
So I really had to think about,as a principal, what was the
impact I was having and thatreally drew me in.
And so being a principal beforeCOVID, you know it was still a
lot of differentresponsibilities.
I did have some opportunitiesfor instructional leadership,
but COVID really brought on somany different challenges and it
(04:43):
really took me more into themanagerial role.
You know monitoring protocols,thinking about the day-to-day,
and you know we had differentmodels of instruction going on
during that time.
We had in-person instruction.
Still, we had hybridinstruction, so a number of our
kids were coming to school twicea week and doing the rest
(05:03):
online.
A portion of our population wasdoing virtual learning.
So we were scattered in a lotof different areas and during
that time I found that I had totake on more.
Obviously, everybody was workinglonger hours.
We were checking our emailsaround the clock, where before
that I was able to kind of shutdown at a certain point and then
(05:28):
really just focus on myself andmy family and do those things
that I knew were important forme to take care of myself.
And when COVID happened, we hadto be responsive around the
clock because things werechanging so fast.
We were constantly getting youknow emails about something
happening, you know, and I wasworried about our students,
(05:50):
worried about our staff, worriedabout our community, and I had
to be on top of things all thetime and I felt like I couldn't
let it go during that time, andso it was really, really
difficult.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
I think this is such a fascinating conversation to
have because you know you oftenhear about people you know
moving up the ladder and justgoing in one direction in their
career.
But to hear someone who's trieddifferent roles and been really
, really reflective about what'sworking for them and not
working for them and making somedifferent choices, I think it's
(06:25):
really fascinating for us tolisten to.
So now that you're back in thatbeautiful second, third grade
age group, what are you reallyenjoying and making the most of
knowing what those other roleslook like?
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Yeah, well, for me, I had to really think about what
were the things that charged me,what gave me energy and I've
always been a learner by natureand I love learning and I
continue to learn every day butwhere I kind of got stuck was I
was learning and then felt likeI had to do something with it,
and so what was the next action?
(07:01):
But as somebody who had a broadrange of interests, I kept
pursuing different things thatwere challenging for me, and
although I really love challengeand I do think it's an
important part of helping usgrow I found that I was also not
focusing on some of thosethings where my strengths were,
and I was spending less time inthe things that I found to be
(07:24):
really important to me as aperson where the same challenges
that existed during COVID forme were very, very difficult,
but for others those were stillthings they could manage just
fine.
So I had to really look atmyself.
I had to look at what were theimportant things for me to
consider.
I know when I got to the pointas a principal when I was
(07:48):
counting down to retirement,like how soon can I retire, that
was a sign that, okay, I cannotkeep doing this forever, and my
plan for retirement was to goback to teaching.
So I thought at some point whyam I doing this?
Why am I not doing the thingthat I really would be doing for
(08:08):
free?
I love teaching.
I have a passion for workingwith kids.
I love that I can have animpact with them every single
day, and impact you know evenjust as little as how is their
day, you know when they walk in.
That is something that getsshaped as a teacher, and I had
that a little bit as a principal.
But as a teacher, you're withthem for the whole day, and so
(08:31):
that's what I really love.
And for myself, I had to takesome of those skills that I
learned in other areas to figureout how could I use those as a
teacher leader, because I thinkthat's where my big passion and
leadership fell.
I want to be able to support mycolleagues.
I want to be able to do what'sbest for kids and I want to be
(08:52):
able to do that myself too.
I want to put things intopractice, because I do have that
passion for learning and Iwanted to be able to see the
results, try things out and playwith it a little bit to see.
Is this more effective or doessomething else work better?
What do the kids really respondto?
And that was where I had toreally make a difficult decision
(09:15):
because it wasn't easy.
Stepping back into theclassroom from being a principal
is a difficult decision, youknow.
Personally and professionally,it was really difficult to leave
the people that I loved.
I loved the staff there, Iloved the kids there and we had
a wonderful community, verysupportive, even in the times of
COVID, where I know that wasn'tnecessarily the case everywhere
(09:37):
.
But I had to make that decisionto go back to something that I
knew was going to really likefeed my soul, basically Right.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
I love that.
You love the teaching so much.
I can definitely remember whenyou were principling and you
know like obviously that wassuch a hard time, but then when
you went back, there wasdefinitely a shift in just your
joyfulness, I think because youare a very happy person and you
(10:12):
do look for the positive.
Very happy person and you dolook for the positive and it was
just.
It's just so much fun to watchyour you and your students
journey on Instagram, like whenyou're posting photos about them
and just the fun ways thatyou're building and learning for
them.
So that makes me happy for you,yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
It's something that I've really enjoyed and I feel
fortunate because I had thesupport of my family, the
support of my husband, to beable to make these changes,
because financially that alsohad to be considered.
But, yeah, finding that joy andyou know, I had high blood
pressure and insomnia andanxiety because it was just too
much for me and who I am Otherpeople, like I said, were just
(10:51):
fine, but I needed to find thatjoy in my work, not just trying
to fill in gaps throughself-care outside of the
workplace.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah, for sure.
We had an episode or a couple ofepisodes come out about the
perception of the teachingprofession according to partners
, and so the data that wecollected from that was super
interesting.
So, you know, hearing from youtoo just you know how your
(11:21):
family very much supported youin that shift back to the
classroom because of yourwell-being is so important.
I did want to ask you because Ihad the privilege of getting to
visit you on a teaching day acouple years ago I think it was
almost two years ago and so Igot to see you in action, which
(11:42):
was super fun to be in yourclassroom with you and your
students.
And so I noticed things aboutyour classroom where I'm like it
kind of made me miss teaching abit, because I'm like, oh, I
used to do that.
Or like you know, if I had aclassroom and I would probably
do that, can you just talk aboutsome of the like simple
structures and systems you havein place to just make sure your,
(12:03):
your classroom runs smoothly,and maybe some?
Sorry I'm terrible for asking atwo-pronged question, but like
some of those systems, but alsolike, what did you bring with
you from your principalship thatyou bring, have brought into
your classroom or into yourteacher leadership role?
Speaker 4 (12:21):
Yeah, Well, I think what I've realized going back to
the classroom now after manyyears of not being there, is
just how important theconsistency matters for the kids
.
Welcoming them at the door isone of the high priorities for
not only me but for my wholeschool.
So we want to make sure thatstudents feel welcome every
(12:42):
single day.
My goal is to make sure thatthey know that it matters that
they are with us.
I want them to love to comeinto the classroom each day so
we have regular routines wherethey can take charge of things.
They know what to expect.
We focus on creating a calm andpeaceful environment, which I
(13:03):
think matters so much whenstudents are used to high change
or high impact or high fastpaced things going with like
video games or being online.
So I want to give them a placewhere they can breathe and learn
and really get to know eachother.
So I try to build in lots ofopportunities for them to talk
(13:26):
together as partners or tablegroups and share out.
I want them to build thatcommunity to make sure that they
feel welcome at school, so thatyou know, aside from the actual
learning part, that's a bigfocus.
I want kids to feel comfortableand happy and know that school
is a home for them too.
(13:46):
The second part is the skillsthat I learned as a leader in
the different roles that I hadin my district really helped me
to approach things that I didnot like in better ways.
Like, as a person, I'm veryconflict avoidant and I don't
like having to, you know, debatethings or coming up with, you
(14:12):
know, different points to sellmy perspective.
And so, luckily, with thedistrict that I'm in, we've had
a lot of training on theleadership side where learning
to listen, learning how to takeon various perspectives, how to
really recognize somebody else'sthoughts on a topic and how to
(14:34):
do that in a way where everybodyfeels heard and valued, and
taking everybody's opinions intoconsideration when making
decisions.
And so those were some of thebig skills that I learned, where
I am so grateful for thatbecause I feel like that's
helped me in my role now as ateacher.
(14:54):
I can have direct conversations.
I don't let things simmer, I'mwilling to, you know talk
directly with parents, pick upthe phone and just call people,
where I think that can be alittle intimidating sometimes
when we're just used to workingwith kids all day.
So I think those are some ofthe skills that I bring now, and
(15:16):
it helps me to communicate withparents in a different way too,
where they know I'm there tolisten and not just talk at them
, and that was, I think,probably in my early years, more
of my standard.
But so I learned a lot ofdifferent skills.
But I am grateful to my schooldistrict because they did
(15:36):
provide a lot of that peercoaching and there were a lot of
different trainings that we hadthat supported that learning
that I got.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
It was interesting what you were saying about one
of the things that drew you toleadership was that
instructional nature of beingthere for your colleagues and
helping improving instruction atyour school.
But I do wonder how much timepeople actually have for that
sort of work.
You know, when I look around atschool leaders, this seems to
be, you know, whether it'sbudgets or schedules or you know
(16:07):
staff concerns.
There seems to be, you know,all of these time pools in
different directions away fromthat instructional leadership.
Did you find?
Obviously COVID was a massiveone, but before that did you
find that difficult to actuallyget enough time to do that work
that you loved?
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Right?
I do think so.
I think it was.
There were so many differentcompeting priorities, and so you
have to kind of focus in onwhat is the most important one
for your staff and yourcommunity.
And, again, with the support ofthe district that I'm in, they
did value that.
So I had a little bit more,probably, than I would have had
elsewhere, and still, there'snever enough time for that.
(16:50):
There's always something thatwe could be working on and
improving, and I think that'sthe nature of a lot of us in
education, where we have thatmindset of continuing to grow
and learn throughout our careers, and so it was a matter of me
also needing to listen to thestaff to see where they felt
those needs were too.
(17:10):
It wasn't up to just me to makethose decisions.
I could share data, I couldshare information, and they were
ultimately the ones that neededto be doing the work, whatever
it was, as the teachers workingdirectly with the kids.
So I did try to get a lot ofinput.
I tried to get more feedbackabout their you know, their
(17:33):
thoughts on priorities andbalance that with what I saw as
the leader of the school.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
So many things to think about.
So in your classroom, knowingyou know you've had years of
experience in different rolesand you know figuring out what
brings you the most joy, howdoes that?
How do you bring that directlyto your students?
Speaker 4 (18:01):
And I think this is a fun way, because it's a fun
thing Like you have to be openand share the things that you
really enjoy with them.
And when you share that passionor when you share an interest
in something, they listen,because they want to know what
their teachers are like.
They want to know them beyondjust what we're doing in math
(18:21):
and what we're going to be doingin reading or writing today.
So making those personalconnections and sharing the
funny and silly things also,like just simple things that get
their attention, that make themsee, oh, today was different.
I learned something new beforewe left school on Friday.
Like the most random thing.
(18:42):
I have this special talent ofbeing able to bend my pinky all
the way back and have it, touchmy hand and you know, you never
know what's going to connectwith the kids.
And I think the more I share,the more they smile and they
laugh and it makes the learningenvironment so much better, like
(19:03):
you have to enjoy the placethat you are, the learning
environment so much better, likeyou have to enjoy the place
that you are.
And so I want them to be alittle bit sad when we don't
have school.
Honestly, I don't want them tobe celebrating.
Yeah, I look forward to seeingthem and I share that with them.
After a long weekend, when Icome back, I'm like I really
missed you.
I'm so sorry that we didn'thave school yesterday.
(19:23):
And so many of them will say,yeah, I wish I could have been
here yesterday.
They want to be there, I thinkbecause we're creating such a
fun environment.
I want them to have a littlebit of FOMO if they're not there
.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
And how do we create that joy with the other adults
in the building as well?
You know it's important thatwe're having those moments with
each other too.
Do you have any good tips forus on how to do that?
Speaker 4 (19:48):
Oh, I'm so glad you asked that part of the question
because the school that I am inis incredible.
Like our team, our lunch group,we laugh the hardest anybody
could ever laugh, like they canhear us all the way down the
hall and in the office whenwe're laughing.
But we just have a great time,we don't take anything too
seriously and we really spendtime getting to know each other
(20:10):
on a personal level and you knowwe ask each other random
questions, we get to silly andridiculous things that really
lighten the mood and, honestly,when I'm not at school I have
FOMO for missing out onlunchtime too, because the
conversations that come up, youknow they're sometimes
ridiculous but they're hilariousand they bring us together and
(20:31):
they lighten the mood.
Sometimes when things can getkind of heavy, we're dealing
with people and kids andfamilies and there are things
that go on that we cannotcontrol and we have to deal with
the heavy things and we have towork together to get through it
, through that and make it apositive environment for
everybody, the whole staff.
(20:52):
You know you have to get thatfeeling when you walk into a
school that these people reallylike each other, they enjoy
working together and they can beproductive and do great things
for kids.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
That is so, just it's .
It makes me so happy to hearthat there's that kind of joy in
your building and it also makesme sad that there's teachers
that don't get to experiencethat in the same way.
So hopefully our listeners aregrabbing some points from you
for, like, just like you know,take, take things with a grain
(21:27):
of salt, like laugh at things,make sure you're you're feeling
good about where you're at,enjoy each other.
Um, because you know things getreally hard and you have to
find those points of joy.
Um, so we're already startingto wrap up our episode.
Go so fast, so fast.
And we always ask our guestsfor a pare-down pointer.
(21:48):
So it could be something thatyou've mentioned already.
It could be something that youapply personally or
professionally.
So what would you offer ourlisteners as your pare-down
pointer?
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Well, I was thinking about the decisions I've made in
my career and how you know it'snot a typical path.
So, in that I was thinkingabout, just because you can
doesn't mean you should, and youhave to really consider what
are the things that bring youenergy and what are the things
that drain you and how do youalign your career to that.
(22:21):
So, thinking about those thingsthat you find energizing and
where you really want to bespending your time, those are
the things.
You should say yes to Continueon that path, and it's okay to
also say okay, that's not for me, at least not right now.
So, making those decisionsabout where you want to, not
(22:43):
just because you can.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
That's powerful.
Thank you, Michelle.
I'm going to keep that in mindactually right now, at this
point in my career.
Thank you so much for beingwith us today.
It has been a joy to talk toyou, and we'll probably have to
have you on for a part two atsome point.
So just be aware I would lovethat.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Thank you so much.
I really really do appreciatebeing here with you both, and
you guys are doing incrediblework and I look forward to
continuing to listen.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
This episode was brought to you by Joyful
Learning Connections Practicaltips, creative ideas, helpful
resources and engaging events toenhance your child's learning
journey.
Find out more atjoyfullearningconnectionscom
learning journey.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Find out more at joyfullearningconnectionscom.
Be sure to join Tammy andChristine and guests for more
episodes of the MinimalistEducator podcast.
They would love to hear aboutyour journey with minimalism.
Connect with them at planzpls,on Twitter or Instagram.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
Gaia Moretti.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusiewski-Borneman and Christine
Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Today we are joined by Michelle Ogden.
Michelle chats with us abouther experiences going from a
principal back into a classroomteaching role.
Michelle Ogden is a teacherleader in the Irvine Unified
School District with experienceas an elementary principal, k-12
, math and science coordinatorand teacher.
She's led professional learningat district and site levels and
(00:57):
presented nationally on schoolculture, math, education
technology and relationshipbuilding.
A first generation collegegraduate, she earned her Ed
Doctorate from the University ofSouthern California.
She is an ASCD Emerging Leaderfrom 2014 and has served on the
boards of California ASCD andASCD Emerging Leaders.
Passionate about whole childeducation, ogden is dedicated to
(01:21):
fostering joyful, impactfullearning experiences for all
students.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode
of the Minimalist EducatorPodcast.
Today, christine and I aretalking to a wonderful educator
named Michelle Ogden.
She and I go back quite a longtime now over a decade and so
we're excited to have her onthis week to talk about some
(01:49):
changes that she's had in herrole as an educator.
How are you today, michelle?
Speaker 4 (01:54):
I am doing great.
I am so happy to be here withboth of you.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Thank you.
How are you, Christine?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
I'm very good.
I'm happy to be here and havinganother chat and meeting
Michelle finally.
Yay, I've been looking forwardto this.
I've very good.
I'm happy to be here and havinganother chat and meeting
Michelle finally.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
Yay, I've been looking forward to this.
I've listened to you guys forquite a while now, so I am so
excited to actually get to meetyou.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
We're excited that you listen to the podcast.
It really motivates us when wesee downloads and know that
people are listening to so manywise words from people that
we've had on the show.
So we're really excited to haveyou here and share with us some
of the things that you've gonethrough as an educator.
(02:35):
So can you just give us a quicksynopsis of, because you've
been in a few different rolesover time?
So can you just give us like aquick journey of your time as an
educator?
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Yes, absolutely so.
Currently I am a second andthird grade teacher and a math
mentor for our district forelementary grades, but before
that I've had quite a fewdifferent roles.
I was an elementary schoolprincipal for six years.
I was a math and sciencecoordinator for our school
district and that was K-12during the time where Common
(03:12):
Core had just started and wewere going through a lot of big
changes and before that I was afirst grade teacher.
So I've had varied experiences.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
After staying at home for eight years in between my
first couple of years ofteaching, that's a lot of role
changing in the span of aneducator's journey, which I
think is like common for a lotof people.
You know you want to try outsome different roles, and so can
we talk a little bit about yourprincipalship and then shifting
(03:45):
back into the classroom.
So you were an elementaryschool principal during such a
rough time during COVID,pre-covid and during COVID, so
can you talk to us a little bitabout that experience?
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Yeah, being a principal during COVID was very
different than before.
I think when I went into beinga principal.
One of the things I reallyloved about that was the idea
that I could have instructionalleadership, a role in a school
and impact you know, the greatergood of everybody.
And I did love being back at aschool site.
Before that I was at thedistrict office and I missed
(04:21):
being around the kids.
So I really had to think about,as a principal, what was the
impact I was having and thatreally drew me in.
And so being a principal beforeCOVID, you know it was still a
lot of differentresponsibilities.
I did have some opportunitiesfor instructional leadership,
but COVID really brought on somany different challenges and it
(04:43):
really took me more into themanagerial role.
You know monitoring protocols,thinking about the day-to-day,
and you know we had differentmodels of instruction going on
during that time.
We had in-person instruction.
Still, we had hybridinstruction, so a number of our
kids were coming to school twicea week and doing the rest
(05:03):
online.
A portion of our population wasdoing virtual learning.
So we were scattered in a lotof different areas and during
that time I found that I had totake on more.
Obviously, everybody was workinglonger hours.
We were checking our emailsaround the clock, where before
that I was able to kind of shutdown at a certain point and then
(05:28):
really just focus on myself andmy family and do those things
that I knew were important forme to take care of myself.
And when COVID happened, we hadto be responsive around the
clock because things werechanging so fast.
We were constantly getting youknow emails about something
happening, you know, and I wasworried about our students,
(05:50):
worried about our staff, worriedabout our community, and I had
to be on top of things all thetime and I felt like I couldn't
let it go during that time, andso it was really, really
difficult.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
I think this is such a fascinating conversation to
have because you know you oftenhear about people you know
moving up the ladder and justgoing in one direction in their
career.
But to hear someone who's trieddifferent roles and been really
, really reflective about what'sworking for them and not
working for them and making somedifferent choices, I think it's
(06:25):
really fascinating for us tolisten to.
So now that you're back in thatbeautiful second, third grade
age group, what are you reallyenjoying and making the most of
knowing what those other roleslook like?
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Yeah, well, for me, I had to really think about what
were the things that charged me,what gave me energy and I've
always been a learner by natureand I love learning and I
continue to learn every day butwhere I kind of got stuck was I
was learning and then felt likeI had to do something with it,
and so what was the next action?
(07:01):
But as somebody who had a broadrange of interests, I kept
pursuing different things thatwere challenging for me, and
although I really love challengeand I do think it's an
important part of helping usgrow I found that I was also not
focusing on some of thosethings where my strengths were,
and I was spending less time inthe things that I found to be
(07:24):
really important to me as aperson where the same challenges
that existed during COVID forme were very, very difficult,
but for others those were stillthings they could manage just
fine.
So I had to really look atmyself.
I had to look at what were theimportant things for me to
consider.
I know when I got to the pointas a principal when I was
(07:48):
counting down to retirement,like how soon can I retire, that
was a sign that, okay, I cannotkeep doing this forever, and my
plan for retirement was to goback to teaching.
So I thought at some point whyam I doing this?
Why am I not doing the thingthat I really would be doing for
(08:08):
free?
I love teaching.
I have a passion for workingwith kids.
I love that I can have animpact with them every single
day, and impact you know evenjust as little as how is their
day, you know when they walk in.
That is something that getsshaped as a teacher, and I had
that a little bit as a principal.
But as a teacher, you're withthem for the whole day, and so
(08:31):
that's what I really love.
And for myself, I had to takesome of those skills that I
learned in other areas to figureout how could I use those as a
teacher leader, because I thinkthat's where my big passion and
leadership fell.
I want to be able to support mycolleagues.
I want to be able to do what'sbest for kids and I want to be
(08:52):
able to do that myself too.
I want to put things intopractice, because I do have that
passion for learning and Iwanted to be able to see the
results, try things out and playwith it a little bit to see.
Is this more effective or doessomething else work better?
What do the kids really respondto?
And that was where I had toreally make a difficult decision
(09:15):
because it wasn't easy.
Stepping back into theclassroom from being a principal
is a difficult decision, youknow.
Personally and professionally,it was really difficult to leave
the people that I loved.
I loved the staff there, Iloved the kids there and we had
a wonderful community, verysupportive, even in the times of
COVID, where I know that wasn'tnecessarily the case everywhere
(09:37):
.
But I had to make that decisionto go back to something that I
knew was going to really likefeed my soul, basically Right.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
I love that.
You love the teaching so much.
I can definitely remember whenyou were principling and you
know like obviously that wassuch a hard time, but then when
you went back, there wasdefinitely a shift in just your
joyfulness, I think because youare a very happy person and you
(10:12):
do look for the positive.
Very happy person and you dolook for the positive and it was
just.
It's just so much fun to watchyour you and your students
journey on Instagram, like whenyou're posting photos about them
and just the fun ways thatyou're building and learning for
them.
So that makes me happy for you,yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
It's something that I've really enjoyed and I feel
fortunate because I had thesupport of my family, the
support of my husband, to beable to make these changes,
because financially that alsohad to be considered.
But, yeah, finding that joy andyou know, I had high blood
pressure and insomnia andanxiety because it was just too
much for me and who I am Otherpeople, like I said, were just
(10:51):
fine, but I needed to find thatjoy in my work, not just trying
to fill in gaps throughself-care outside of the
workplace.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah, for sure.
We had an episode or a couple ofepisodes come out about the
perception of the teachingprofession according to partners
, and so the data that wecollected from that was super
interesting.
So, you know, hearing from youtoo just you know how your
(11:21):
family very much supported youin that shift back to the
classroom because of yourwell-being is so important.
I did want to ask you because Ihad the privilege of getting to
visit you on a teaching day acouple years ago I think it was
almost two years ago and so Igot to see you in action, which
(11:42):
was super fun to be in yourclassroom with you and your
students.
And so I noticed things aboutyour classroom where I'm like it
kind of made me miss teaching abit, because I'm like, oh, I
used to do that.
Or like you know, if I had aclassroom and I would probably
do that, can you just talk aboutsome of the like simple
structures and systems you havein place to just make sure your,
(12:03):
your classroom runs smoothly,and maybe some?
Sorry I'm terrible for asking atwo-pronged question, but like
some of those systems, but alsolike, what did you bring with
you from your principalship thatyou bring, have brought into
your classroom or into yourteacher leadership role?
Speaker 4 (12:21):
Yeah, Well, I think what I've realized going back to
the classroom now after manyyears of not being there, is
just how important theconsistency matters for the kids
.
Welcoming them at the door isone of the high priorities for
not only me but for my wholeschool.
So we want to make sure thatstudents feel welcome every
(12:42):
single day.
My goal is to make sure thatthey know that it matters that
they are with us.
I want them to love to comeinto the classroom each day so
we have regular routines wherethey can take charge of things.
They know what to expect.
We focus on creating a calm andpeaceful environment, which I
(13:03):
think matters so much whenstudents are used to high change
or high impact or high fastpaced things going with like
video games or being online.
So I want to give them a placewhere they can breathe and learn
and really get to know eachother.
So I try to build in lots ofopportunities for them to talk
(13:26):
together as partners or tablegroups and share out.
I want them to build thatcommunity to make sure that they
feel welcome at school, so thatyou know, aside from the actual
learning part, that's a bigfocus.
I want kids to feel comfortableand happy and know that school
is a home for them too.
(13:46):
The second part is the skillsthat I learned as a leader in
the different roles that I hadin my district really helped me
to approach things that I didnot like in better ways.
Like, as a person, I'm veryconflict avoidant and I don't
like having to, you know, debatethings or coming up with, you
(14:12):
know, different points to sellmy perspective.
And so, luckily, with thedistrict that I'm in, we've had
a lot of training on theleadership side where learning
to listen, learning how to takeon various perspectives, how to
really recognize somebody else'sthoughts on a topic and how to
(14:34):
do that in a way where everybodyfeels heard and valued, and
taking everybody's opinions intoconsideration when making
decisions.
And so those were some of thebig skills that I learned, where
I am so grateful for thatbecause I feel like that's
helped me in my role now as ateacher.
(14:54):
I can have direct conversations.
I don't let things simmer, I'mwilling to, you know talk
directly with parents, pick upthe phone and just call people,
where I think that can be alittle intimidating sometimes
when we're just used to workingwith kids all day.
So I think those are some ofthe skills that I bring now, and
(15:16):
it helps me to communicate withparents in a different way too,
where they know I'm there tolisten and not just talk at them
, and that was, I think,probably in my early years, more
of my standard.
But so I learned a lot ofdifferent skills.
But I am grateful to my schooldistrict because they did
(15:36):
provide a lot of that peercoaching and there were a lot of
different trainings that we hadthat supported that learning
that I got.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
It was interesting what you were saying about one
of the things that drew you toleadership was that
instructional nature of beingthere for your colleagues and
helping improving instruction atyour school.
But I do wonder how much timepeople actually have for that
sort of work.
You know, when I look around atschool leaders, this seems to
be, you know, whether it'sbudgets or schedules or you know
(16:07):
staff concerns.
There seems to be, you know,all of these time pools in
different directions away fromthat instructional leadership.
Did you find?
Obviously COVID was a massiveone, but before that did you
find that difficult to actuallyget enough time to do that work
that you loved?
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Right?
I do think so.
I think it was.
There were so many differentcompeting priorities, and so you
have to kind of focus in onwhat is the most important one
for your staff and yourcommunity.
And, again, with the support ofthe district that I'm in, they
did value that.
So I had a little bit more,probably, than I would have had
elsewhere, and still, there'snever enough time for that.
(16:50):
There's always something thatwe could be working on and
improving, and I think that'sthe nature of a lot of us in
education, where we have thatmindset of continuing to grow
and learn throughout our careers, and so it was a matter of me
also needing to listen to thestaff to see where they felt
those needs were too.
(17:10):
It wasn't up to just me to makethose decisions.
I could share data, I couldshare information, and they were
ultimately the ones that neededto be doing the work, whatever
it was, as the teachers workingdirectly with the kids.
So I did try to get a lot ofinput.
I tried to get more feedbackabout their you know, their
(17:33):
thoughts on priorities andbalance that with what I saw as
the leader of the school.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
So many things to think about.
So in your classroom, knowingyou know you've had years of
experience in different rolesand you know figuring out what
brings you the most joy, howdoes that?
How do you bring that directlyto your students?
Speaker 4 (18:01):
And I think this is a fun way, because it's a fun
thing Like you have to be openand share the things that you
really enjoy with them.
And when you share that passionor when you share an interest
in something, they listen,because they want to know what
their teachers are like.
They want to know them beyondjust what we're doing in math
(18:21):
and what we're going to be doingin reading or writing today.
So making those personalconnections and sharing the
funny and silly things also,like just simple things that get
their attention, that make themsee, oh, today was different.
I learned something new beforewe left school on Friday.
Like the most random thing.
(18:42):
I have this special talent ofbeing able to bend my pinky all
the way back and have it, touchmy hand and you know, you never
know what's going to connectwith the kids.
And I think the more I share,the more they smile and they
laugh and it makes the learningenvironment so much better, like
(19:03):
you have to enjoy the placethat you are, the learning
environment so much better, likeyou have to enjoy the place
that you are.
And so I want them to be alittle bit sad when we don't
have school.
Honestly, I don't want them tobe celebrating.
Yeah, I look forward to seeingthem and I share that with them.
After a long weekend, when Icome back, I'm like I really
missed you.
I'm so sorry that we didn'thave school yesterday.
(19:23):
And so many of them will say,yeah, I wish I could have been
here yesterday.
They want to be there, I thinkbecause we're creating such a
fun environment.
I want them to have a littlebit of FOMO if they're not there
.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
And how do we create that joy with the other adults
in the building as well?
You know it's important thatwe're having those moments with
each other too.
Do you have any good tips forus on how to do that?
Speaker 4 (19:48):
Oh, I'm so glad you asked that part of the question
because the school that I am inis incredible.
Like our team, our lunch group,we laugh the hardest anybody
could ever laugh, like they canhear us all the way down the
hall and in the office whenwe're laughing.
But we just have a great time,we don't take anything too
seriously and we really spendtime getting to know each other
(20:10):
on a personal level and you knowwe ask each other random
questions, we get to silly andridiculous things that really
lighten the mood and, honestly,when I'm not at school I have
FOMO for missing out onlunchtime too, because the
conversations that come up, youknow they're sometimes
ridiculous but they're hilariousand they bring us together and
(20:31):
they lighten the mood.
Sometimes when things can getkind of heavy, we're dealing
with people and kids andfamilies and there are things
that go on that we cannotcontrol and we have to deal with
the heavy things and we have towork together to get through it
, through that and make it apositive environment for
everybody, the whole staff.
(20:52):
You know you have to get thatfeeling when you walk into a
school that these people reallylike each other, they enjoy
working together and they can beproductive and do great things
for kids.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
That is so, just it's .
It makes me so happy to hearthat there's that kind of joy in
your building and it also makesme sad that there's teachers
that don't get to experiencethat in the same way.
So hopefully our listeners aregrabbing some points from you
for, like, just like you know,take, take things with a grain
(21:27):
of salt, like laugh at things,make sure you're you're feeling
good about where you're at,enjoy each other.
Um, because you know things getreally hard and you have to
find those points of joy.
Um, so we're already startingto wrap up our episode.
Go so fast, so fast.
And we always ask our guestsfor a pare-down pointer.
(21:48):
So it could be something thatyou've mentioned already.
It could be something that youapply personally or
professionally.
So what would you offer ourlisteners as your pare-down
pointer?
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Well, I was thinking about the decisions I've made in
my career and how you know it'snot a typical path.
So, in that I was thinkingabout, just because you can
doesn't mean you should, and youhave to really consider what
are the things that bring youenergy and what are the things
that drain you and how do youalign your career to that.
(22:21):
So, thinking about those thingsthat you find energizing and
where you really want to bespending your time, those are
the things.
You should say yes to Continueon that path, and it's okay to
also say okay, that's not for me, at least not right now.
So, making those decisionsabout where you want to, not
(22:43):
just because you can.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
That's powerful.
Thank you, Michelle.
I'm going to keep that in mindactually right now, at this
point in my career.
Thank you so much for beingwith us today.
It has been a joy to talk toyou, and we'll probably have to
have you on for a part two atsome point.
So just be aware I would lovethat.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Thank you so much.
I really really do appreciatebeing here with you both, and
you guys are doing incrediblework and I look forward to
continuing to listen.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
This episode was brought to you by Joyful
Learning Connections Practicaltips, creative ideas, helpful
resources and engaging events toenhance your child's learning
journey.
Find out more atjoyfullearningconnectionscom
learning journey.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Find out more at joyfullearningconnectionscom.
Be sure to join Tammy andChristine and guests for more
episodes of the MinimalistEducator podcast.
They would love to hear aboutyour journey with minimalism.
Connect with them at planzpls,on Twitter or Instagram.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
Gaia Moretti.
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