May 13, 2025 • 33 mins
Tammy and Christine revisit their 2021 book "The Minimalist Teacher," reflecting on which concepts remain relevant in today's educational landscape and the ongoing conversations they're having with educators about minimalist approaches.
• The Triple P funnel (Purpose, Priorities, Paring Down) helps teachers declutter instructional practices and assessment strategies
• Teachers often feel overwhelmed by excessive resources and materials that weren't designed with their specific students in mind
• Creating boundaries around when to check emails and limiting digital clutter can reduce cognitive overwhelm
• The concept of "teaching with fidelity" must be balanced with responsiveness to student needs
• Creating a culture of minimalism focuses on preventing burnout and reconceptualizing all forms of waste
• Educators experience not just physical waste but emotional, cognitive, and temporal waste that drains energy
• Building emotional intelligence and creating transition times in meetings helps educators manage stress
• Setting boundaries around venting time can help process frustrations without derailing productivity
If you haven't yet picked up a copy of "The Minimalist Teacher," it's still available to purchase at any online book shop.
Buy The Minimalist Teacher book from ASCD+ISTE.
Follow on Instagram @PlanZEducation and @minimalist_ed_podcast.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast is a Plan Z Education Services adventure.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Educator podcast.
A podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher book, tammyMusialski-Borneman and Christine
Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome back to the Minimalist Educator podcast.
Today we are diving intosomething really special our
book, the Minimalist Teacher,which was published back in 2021
.
It's been a few years and todaywe're taking a moment to
reflect on which parts resonatewith us still in the
conversations we're continuingto have in this area.
And, yes, it's still availableto purchase, so if you haven't
(00:55):
yet picked up a copy, it's nottoo late.
So, whether you've already readit or just discovering it,
we're excited to share ourfavorite parts that still feel
super relevant in our work today.
Let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
of the Minimalist EducatorPodcast.
Today, christine and I aregoing to be chatting about a
couple of our favorite parts ofour first book, the Minimalist
Teacher.
Before we do that, though, Ihave to, of course, check in
(01:31):
with Christine.
How are you doing today,christine?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
I am very well.
I'm happy to be looking back atour book the Minimalist Teacher
.
It makes me a bit nostalgic forthe time we spent writing it
and sharing it out to the worldand having so many great
conversations with people aroundthe world about the book.
So I'm glad to be diving backin.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
How are you?
I'm good about writing this.
Um, maybe that's one of ournext episodes that we record
together is just talk about that, the writing process, because
we're we went through thatduring I mean partly during
(02:14):
covid first and then, um, youknow, another writing process
recently, so for some newwriting, so maybe that's
something we talk about in oneof our episodes, just thought be
be good to know if people wouldbe interested, so let us know
if that's an interesting topicfor you listeners.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Okay, tammy, you're gonna start us off here with
your a favorite of yours.
Obviously, the whole book is afavorite, but what is a favorite
of yours?
Obviously, the whole book is afavorite, but what is a favorite
of the favorites?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Well, yeah.
So when I was flipping throughthere's, I'm kind of drawn to
the instructional chapterdecluttering instruction and
assessment.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
And I think maybe well generally, because, like
you know, teaching is a funthing to do, it's enjoyable and
it's very strategic and creativeand all those things.
And I do feel right now that inmy work with coaching teachers,
a lot of our conversations comearound one of the questioning
(03:23):
funnels.
Come around one of thequestioning funnels.
So in the book we have ourtriple P funnel and, for those
of you that don't know, one ofour first episodes was on our
funnel.
But the funnel is purpose,priorities and paring down, and
so in each of the chapters wehave a series of questions to
(03:45):
help people find the purpose inthat element of the book.
So in this case I'll talk aboutthe instructional and
assessment strategies.
So finding the purpose,prioritizing through that and
then paring down just to theessentials so that you can focus
on, like that aspect thatyou're working through.
And so I'm finding that a lotof teachers have been
(04:11):
overwhelmed with resourcematerials.
So I don't know if youexperience that with your
teachers probably, and there'sthis sense of like scatter right
, so like, even if teachers havethe programs they are, just
(04:32):
like, it's just way too much forme to learn and I don't know
how to fit it all into my timeand you know, this doesn't
really work for my students andthat kind of thing.
So, like, really gooddiscussion points, and so some
of the conversations that I'vebeen having has been really
(04:52):
focusing on, like in the in thefunnel itself, we have like the
upper level questions which arelike OK, what's the purpose
behind this instructionalstrategy or this resource, that
kind of thing.
And then we talk about thepriorities once we're like OK,
well, the purpose here is like,this is what I'm teaching here.
(05:14):
But then when we start lookingat some of the priorities, like
general overarching priorityquestion might be well, what's
the priority in your instructionor assessment for that day,
this period, that student, andwhat are your priorities when
you're designing the instruction?
So I think and feel free tojump in because I'll just rattle
(05:40):
on for a while here but, um,but there's teachers forget that
they're the teacher sometimesand they're in control of what
they bring to their students.
And so I've had a fewconversations about the design.
So like, yes, you have thesematerials, but the publishers of
(06:01):
that book don't know who's infront of you.
Like, this is a general guide,so they give you plenty of ideas
and they give you the content,but they don't know specifically
the kids that sit in your seats.
So they kind of forget thatthey have the ability to take
what's there in front of themand design it for their students
(06:23):
.
And so sometimes that feelsagain overwhelming because
they're like well, it's alreadyin the book and why am I like
redoing it?
I'm like, but you're notredoing it.
One of the one of the thingsthat I've told teachers is like,
cause, a lot of the materialsare digital right, so all the
tabs are open and the screen islike got all the stuff on it and
(06:45):
I'm like just read through whatyou're teaching for that day or
that week then, close yourcomputer and just think about
okay, what do I actually need toteach this week?
What's our objective, what's theexpectation, whatever the
language is, what's the learningtarget?
What's the learning target,summarize it and then design
what you're going to teachyourself.
(07:06):
So you are still going to gointo your guides and use the
text and use some of thosestrategies, but just really pare
down, like once you know whatyour priority is, after you've
(07:27):
read through everything and doneyour mental summary or written
summary, just pare down Likewhat do you actually really need
to teach this?
Like on Monday or Monday toWednesday, and that's helped
some teachers.
Just be like, oh, actually,yeah, I kind of thought I always
had to have everything open.
So I'm looking at all thethings and I'm like, no, don't,
that's just like it's a reallybad idea and it's like bad for
you mentally to have all thatvisual clutter.
(07:48):
First of all, and then, it justlike stresses you out.
So it that's been aninteresting set of conversations
with a few different teachers,because I've you know I'm
hearing similar things.
What do you think about allthat?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I think that's important to note, and even
adding on to that is you mayhave adapted or modified
something once for one group ofkids, but you may need to keep
doing it because your kiddosthat are in front of you in the
(08:23):
following years are notnecessarily going to be needing
exactly what you adapted thefirst time.
So it is.
It is kind of part of part ofthe deal is that you've got to
keep being responsive, uh, tothe people that are in front of
you, right?
So yeah, that that thatpublished book isn't going to
(08:47):
meet the needs of everyone yearafter year after year.
There's just no way, like we'rehuman beings, there's no way
that it's going to be the rightthing for everybody.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Right, and some schools not many that I work
with, but I've had thisexperience where you're told by
your administrators like we'reteaching this with fidelity and
that can mean different thingsright.
So, like, does that mean you'rejust teaching, you know, lesson
(09:18):
one this day, lesson two thenext day, or does that mean like
you've got to use all the stuffthat's in there, because that's
a different type of fidelity?
So I think it's important tounderstand what that means as
people, instructionalpractitioners, right, Like it's
not reasonable and I hope tothink that you know
(09:42):
administrators or curriculumcoaches are not making teachers
teach all the things because Imean there's just not enough
time anyway, so it's notrealistic.
But when we're talking aboutteaching with fidelity, it's
like, yes, we're going to usethis unit as it is in this pace,
and so we're all going to tryto stick together.
But within that, we have to askthe questions is this going to
(10:05):
meet the needs of the studentsthat are in front of me?
And if not, I'm not going to dothat or I'm going to modify it.
And so I think that's a reallyimportant thing to just
distinguish between is what doesthat mean if we have to really
teach it to the book versus like, how much do we get to modify?
And that kind of thing?
(10:26):
Because that can relieve someof the stress for teachers too,
because, like, that is apressure right to stay with the
pacing guide and with your othercounterparts on your grade
level, but it's also just youhave to to move along too.
So that's why we have pacingguides to help us out.
But it's like we can't.
If our students need more timewith something, we have to
(10:47):
provide that time.
And then you know we've talkedabout planning and buffers and
things like that in the past.
So it comes down to how that'sgoing to look long-term as well.
But yeah, one of the keyquestions in this section of the
funnel that I often talk aboutwith teachers is how can we
(11:09):
effectively differentiate tomeet all learners' needs without
getting complicated?
And I think now that becomesmore of a universal design for
learning approach, right?
So if we have planned out, ifwe're using our resources that
are in front of us, or if you'recreating your own curriculum,
(11:31):
you know, either way you'relooking at your students first
and then you're looking at, okay, well, here's our standard that
we're going to meet, how are wegoing to approach this?
And so often I feel like thatfeels like the most
uncomplicated way to look at it,right, like starting with them
(11:52):
and the standard and then like,okay, well, how are we going to
build out from there there?
Because then you're notstarting with the resource first
and then trying to fit yourkids into it, which is what
teaching is a lot of the time,and that's I mean we have to
plan like that because that'swhat we have.
But what are your thoughts onthat?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
no, I think.
I think this is a reallyimportant discussion because it
comes back to that purpose, partof the filtering down of the
funnel because you have to firstknow what is our purpose in
using this material.
Is it to follow it like ascript, day by day, page by page
(12:35):
, because that is going to leadyou to very different priorities
and what you can and can't paredown?
Or is the purpose of this aresource that we can pull from
or adapt or modify from, becausethose are two very different
purposes that are going to leadyou in very different directions
?
So I think, yeah, bringing itall back again to that funnel
(12:58):
and starting with the purpose isso crucial when you're dealing
with those instructionalmaterials, because without a
clear vision of the purpose, youcan kind of end up wandering
down the wrong path, can't you?
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
For sure.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yeah, it's an ongoing conversation conversation too.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I've been having.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
So, like some teachers, they really their mind
is just really hooked into.
I have all this stuff and I'moverwhelmed, and it's been hard
for teachers to kind of get past, even with the coaching, like,
okay, well, let's think aboutwhat we're doing here, what's?
What is the purpose of all ofthis stuff, or what's the
(13:44):
purpose of this, and how are wetrying to navigate what your
priorities are while meeting theneeds of your students?
And so bringing the students tothe forefront has been really
helpful for teachers to kind ofrefocus on, like what they're
doing in the classroom, becauseit's, it's about them, right
(14:04):
it's about are they going tomeet the expectations?
am I providing the best kind oflearning opportunities that I
can, or am I just deliveringthis content, because that's
what I feel like it can do?
So this kind of student focused,student centeredness of the
(14:24):
conversation is helpful toteachers, especially at this
point, because I know this isgoing to like time date us in
our podcast a little bit, butwe're like midway through an
academic year and so sometimesyou know you're getting to the
point where you're like I'mgetting, like I'm getting more
(14:45):
lost, like I feel like there'sjust so many things happening
right now and so re-centering onokay, let's look at how your
students are progressing.
Let's look at this student worksample Like what else?
What direction do we need to go?
So just kind of making it lesscomplicated by just paring back
the resources and just focusingon students is super helpful.
(15:09):
So I don't want to likemonopolize our podcast recording
time with, like my ramblesabout that, but it's's just.
I think that's such animportant part of the book even
though there's like lots ofimportant parts but that that
triple p funnel and particularlylike in this moment in time, I
feel like that really speaks outto me is that instructional
(15:33):
funnel?
Speaker 2 (15:34):
yeah, absolutely yeah , I.
I mean, there's so many,there's so many good bits isn't
there.
But well, that might be biasedbut so many so many, um, so many
, so many parts that bring backgood memories and a good
reminder, even even for myself,I think I think I want to touch
(15:57):
on.
So yeah, chapter one we we'relooking at creating a culture of
minimalism in the classroom and, interestingly enough, the way
the chapter is organized is kindof following the triple p
funnel that you were justtalking about, tammy.
So we start off with with thepurpose what is the purpose
behind creating this culture ofminimalism?
(16:18):
And then it goes into somepriorities.
So I would like to just readthis first little paragraph here
around what the purpose is.
So this is how it starts off.
The term culture can bring tomind a variety of different
images or meanings.
This can encompass anythingfrom language or food to the
(16:41):
arts or family structures.
Ultimately, a culture is ashared set of values and
practices that are held by agroup of people.
A culture of minimalismrequires members of a group, in
this case your classroom, torecognise and work toward making
use of currently availableresources and know more in order
to best support therequirements and expectations of
(17:02):
the community.
While a minimalist culture inclassrooms may seem
unconventional, overlyinnovative or unrealistic, now
this approach is becoming moreand more socially acceptable.
Rather than superficiallyattempting to meet students'
needs by buying things, addingmore tasks or creating more
paperwork, there is a shift toinstead maximise existing
(17:24):
resources in the community andcreate a lifelong practice and
lifestyle of appreciation,efficiency and sustainability.
Reach, yes, right, and I feellike that is still very true
that people are trying to thinkabout what is sustainable, what
(17:45):
is meaningful, what isthoughtful, and appreciating
what we already have.
So I think that that is stilltrue, even though it's a couple
of years since the book has comeout.
True, even though it's a coupleof years since the book has
come out.
And then I want to turn alittle bit to the top three
priorities in creating thisculture that we've put out here.
So priority one is positivewell-being and avoiding burnout.
(18:10):
Priority three is managingwaste beyond the four R's.
Yeah, and I think this isdefinitely still really relevant
(18:30):
and something that we should bethinking about.
I don't think educatorwellbeing has improved.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
No At all, I don't think so either.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Educator well-being has improved?
No at all.
In fact, I think it might havegone in a worse direction.
It's worse.
So I think it really is apriority for us to consider ways
in which we can help in thatarena, for sure.
And I think we do need toreconceptualize what waste is,
because we do often justassociate the word waste with
(19:03):
physical things, trash, thingsthat we can throw away.
But it is so much more.
It is that emotional waste,it's that cognitive waste, it's
economic waste that we arebattling with all the time in
this field.
And then, when we talk aboutmanaging waste, we're talking
about recycling.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
But also reusing, repurposing and repairing as
well.
Yeah, I think it's importantfor us to think kind of outside
of the box when we are, when weare eliminating things, because,
like when we are, when we areeliminating things because like
it is daunting to haveclassrooms full of stuff and
that's a real thing for everyeducator we know that people
have moved classrooms and theprevious teachers left stuff
(19:49):
behind, thinking it's helpfuland it's not.
We have like there's justschools are loaded with things,
and so that's often kind of thefirst thing that we think of
potentially and it's a reallytangible thing for educators to
attach on to, because everybodycan relate to that drain, the
(20:10):
emotional drain and waste thatjust like we're talking about
you know why.
Why do we have schools ingeneral?
Because we're educating thenext generation.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
That seems obvious, but we lose sight of that with
all of this crazy minutiae whenyou say getting caught up in in
the minutiae, that's what Ithink of is is things like email
time suckage, that that hastaken over what we do, and it it
doesn't seem like we havechoice in that yeah we can't
(20:51):
choose not to read or respond toemails, does it?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
no, it't, and I think an important thing, though, to
do is just have your set timeswhen you are checking it, so
that you are doing part of youknow it's part of your job
responsibility, but people can'ttell you when to look at it,
Right?
So, like, maybe it's the firstfive minutes of your day, the
(21:16):
end 10 minutes, depending onwhen the most messages are, and
that's kind of it, because thenwe get lost in all of the stuff
that like, and how important arethose emails?
Right, cause we also get spamthat gets in there sometimes,
and usually schools are betterwith having spam filters, but
(21:37):
not always.
And, um, yeah, I just thinkthat you have to have the
boundary for when you're lookingat things and when it feels
most appropriate and it doesn'tcause you, uh, additional mental
stress or like feeling likeyou're being pushed to
(21:58):
constantly look at yourcommunications when that's not
our primary focus or it's notthe only focus, right?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
yeah for sure, yeah for sure.
You know, and I think, I think,coming back to those three
priorities, you know reallyconsidering preventing that
stress and overwhelm and, youknow, really understanding all
the different categories ofwaste that we're experiencing.
(22:31):
I think that is a reallypoignant part of what we were
trying to do with with the book,don't you think?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
I do and, um, when I've done conference sessions on
this part of the book withpeople, so like teachers,
coaches, admin will come intothe sessions.
And when I start talking aboutthis kind of like
reconceptualizing waste you knoweveryone's aware of all like
(23:02):
the mental ways, theintellectual waste, they're
aware of it, but I think youknow making almost like naming
it as waste, like not just timeweight, because we're used to
saying oh, that was such a wasteof time or the waste of money,
like that's common, but we don'toften say that's such a waste
(23:24):
of my mental energy and it is.
There's so much of that and Ithink like there's some
epiphanies that happen there,like know this is happening, but
I didn't really think of it inthat way and but it is.
It is like a waste of a preciousresource which is you, the
(23:45):
person yeah like we are gettingdrained because you know there's
just so many things to dealwith.
There's when we're dealing, whenwe're working with people, like
there's just so many things todeal with, when we're working
with people, like there's justso many layers of engagement and
interaction that we just havebecome so used to it.
(24:06):
But then when you put in someof these like traumatic things
that happen at schools as well,whether it's like abuse or
violence or like things comingfrom home, you know, families
living in poverty all of that isand I don't like to call it
mental waste, but it adds to themental stress and the emotional
(24:29):
stress that teachers feel andjust feel and just being who we
are as caregivers and educators,like we take that on without
intentionally doing so.
It's just part of our natureoften and so it's hard to like
not think about students andfamilies when we're out of the
(24:52):
physical school space and thatjust becomes.
You know it's important thatwe're thinking about the people
that we work with, but it'sdraining and it's a lot, it's a
lot.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
It is?
It's making me think.
I want your opinion onsomething that I've gotten into
the habit with.
So I, just, while listening toyou, you talk I've realized that
quite often I will start a teammeeting by saying, look, I had
this on my agenda for somethingfor us to do, you know, like
(25:27):
talk about, you know, reflectingor looking at assessments or
this new initiative that'scoming up, but do we have the
bandwidth to tackle this rightnow and not to put to the side
the important work that we needto do?
But I'm trying to be consciousof the fact that me spending the
(25:48):
day talking to adults puts youin a very different mind space
to people who are in front ofthe kiddos, and so you know we
don't want to waste our timetrying to tackle something we're
not quite ready for, yeah, butalso trying to acknowledge the
fact that you might not be readyfor it.
(26:08):
You might be ready for it, butyou might not be ready for this
work right now.
So do you think that's ahelpful strategy or do you think
sometimes we just need to geton it and get what we need to
get done done?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Well, yeah, I think that just leaving that space
open to say I need a minute,like yeah it was a rough day Can
we just have like a coupleminutes to just like sit in
silence or something like that.
But I do.
You know we do have things thatare on the agenda that might be
time sensitive and might not be, but I think providing that
(26:48):
space at the start of a meetingjust to have that check-in is I
think teachers really value that, because then you're hearing,
you know you're just leaving thespace open for them to voice
how they feel or what share.
What's going on.
One of the things thattransformational coach Alina
Aguilar she, she does somethingsimilar.
(27:11):
Where she allows, she has thislike transition period.
So if she's meeting withteachers, she'll like verbalize
okay, we're transitioning from aday of teaching that may have
been great, may have been hard,whatever the thing is.
Maybe something personalhappened, but we are
transitioning into thisprofessional learning space and
(27:32):
so we'll take two minutes tolike do this Mindfulness or
whatever it is that she hasplanned, and then we're going to
shift into this work and so Ithink that, like naming that to
where we're, we're transitioningfrom this space to that,
recognizing this has been agreat day, terrible day,
(27:55):
whatever, and we're going tomove forward because these are
some of the things we still needto do for our students and for
ourselves.
So, like it's going to help ourstudents, it's going to help us
as teachers.
It'll help clarify some things,whatever the task is.
So I think that's a reallyvaluable practice to I.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
I like that, I like the naming it, I like the naming
it.
But I think I might borrow thatand try and build that in a
little bit more, rather thanjust saying you know, are we
ready?
Speaker 3 (28:25):
right, yeah yeah and and also like she talks about,
because you know we also needventing space, but there's, um,
there's I don't want to sayeffective venting, but like just
enough and then too much.
So there's like this boundaryof time and I forget what the
(28:45):
number is I want to say sevenminutes or something but like
everybody needs a little vent,um.
And so being thoughtful aboutwho you're venting to is one
thing, but if there's a bigthing that's happened at the
school and people need to likevoice their opinions, like
setting a timer for a minute ortwo for people to just vent to,
(29:06):
like a partner can just helpunload some of that mental
stress too, and then, same thing, we're going to transition and
so we've had the vent.
Now we're going to have likesome kind of productive, like
take a few breaths and thenwe're going to move into this
Cause like it's the reality,right, there's frustrating
things that come up and we'relike well, you know that just
(29:27):
threw my whole day off, becausenow I'm thinking about this
other thing and we don't wantthings to derail our entire days
when they know, but just sayingit out loud can be very helpful
to get it off your chest, sheor she's.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
We've gone into another tangent here, but I love
her work around creating normsas well oh, me too yeah maybe we
need a whole other episode on.
I think we do work on that.
Let's make a note of that.
But just to bring it back again, what we're talking about is
like giving that space to trynot to waste people's time and
(30:03):
emotions and effort and to bringit back to that idea of
building this culture wherewe're not burning people out,
that we're actually beingproductive and efficient and
hopefully joyful in what we'redoing.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
I agree, and part of that is like we're building each
other's emotional intelligencewhen we do these kinds of things
as well, and when we have, youknow, strong, emotionally
intelligent adults, we translatethat, can, you know?
We build that into how we teachour students and that again, do
(30:41):
well with what we have and notadding things to our plate I
(31:02):
guess again, cliche, but youknow it is a plate that's
overloaded um, but when we canbuild a strong culture of like
really focusing on what mattersand we're just setting ourselves
up for success yes, it is niceto look back at the work and and
(31:23):
realize that it's stillrelevant and something that we
care about, isn't it?
it really is.
It's definitely an evergreenapproach to thinking, because we
know it's lifestyle choicesright comes from different
lifestyles and just finding thevalue in what we're doing and
(31:46):
not just doing things to do themor be frivolous or or just
follow trends even, which is athing that can happen.
So it's nice to come back tothose ideas of focus, finding
clarity and doing the best thatwe can with what's in front of
(32:08):
us.
Absolutely Thanks for thisdiscussion, christine.
I'm realizing now we didn'tnecessarily do a paredown
pointer, as we ask our guests todo, but I think that the
pointer would be to, if youhaven't read the book, give it a
read and talk with somecolleagues about it and, um,
(32:32):
just kind of get this movementstarted.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
For sure, and I think we'll leave it there.
So enjoy and we'll see you nexttime.
Everyone, Today's episode wasbrought to you by Plan Z
Professional Learning Servicesforward-thinking educator
support.
Find out more atplanzplservicescom.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Be sure to join Tammy and Christine and guests for
more episodes of the MinimalistEducator podcast.
They would love to hear aboutyour journey with minimalism.
Connect with them at planzplson Twitter or Instagram.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
Gaia Moretti.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Educator podcast.
A podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher book, tammyMusialski-Borneman and Christine
Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome back to the Minimalist Educator podcast.
Today we are diving intosomething really special our
book, the Minimalist Teacher,which was published back in 2021
.
It's been a few years and todaywe're taking a moment to
reflect on which parts resonatewith us still in the
conversations we're continuingto have in this area.
And, yes, it's still availableto purchase, so if you haven't
(00:55):
yet picked up a copy, it's nottoo late.
So, whether you've already readit or just discovering it,
we're excited to share ourfavorite parts that still feel
super relevant in our work today.
Let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
of the Minimalist EducatorPodcast.
Today, christine and I aregoing to be chatting about a
couple of our favorite parts ofour first book, the Minimalist
Teacher.
Before we do that, though, Ihave to, of course, check in
(01:31):
with Christine.
How are you doing today,christine?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
I am very well.
I'm happy to be looking back atour book the Minimalist Teacher
.
It makes me a bit nostalgic forthe time we spent writing it
and sharing it out to the worldand having so many great
conversations with people aroundthe world about the book.
So I'm glad to be diving backin.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
How are you?
I'm good about writing this.
Um, maybe that's one of ournext episodes that we record
together is just talk about that, the writing process, because
we're we went through thatduring I mean partly during
(02:14):
covid first and then, um, youknow, another writing process
recently, so for some newwriting, so maybe that's
something we talk about in oneof our episodes, just thought be
be good to know if people wouldbe interested, so let us know
if that's an interesting topicfor you listeners.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Okay, tammy, you're gonna start us off here with
your a favorite of yours.
Obviously, the whole book is afavorite, but what is a favorite
of yours?
Obviously, the whole book is afavorite, but what is a favorite
of the favorites?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Well, yeah.
So when I was flipping throughthere's, I'm kind of drawn to
the instructional chapterdecluttering instruction and
assessment.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
And I think maybe well generally, because, like
you know, teaching is a funthing to do, it's enjoyable and
it's very strategic and creativeand all those things.
And I do feel right now that inmy work with coaching teachers,
a lot of our conversations comearound one of the questioning
(03:23):
funnels.
Come around one of thequestioning funnels.
So in the book we have ourtriple P funnel and, for those
of you that don't know, one ofour first episodes was on our
funnel.
But the funnel is purpose,priorities and paring down, and
so in each of the chapters wehave a series of questions to
(03:45):
help people find the purpose inthat element of the book.
So in this case I'll talk aboutthe instructional and
assessment strategies.
So finding the purpose,prioritizing through that and
then paring down just to theessentials so that you can focus
on, like that aspect thatyou're working through.
And so I'm finding that a lotof teachers have been
(04:11):
overwhelmed with resourcematerials.
So I don't know if youexperience that with your
teachers probably, and there'sthis sense of like scatter right
, so like, even if teachers havethe programs they are, just
(04:32):
like, it's just way too much forme to learn and I don't know
how to fit it all into my timeand you know, this doesn't
really work for my students andthat kind of thing.
So, like, really gooddiscussion points, and so some
of the conversations that I'vebeen having has been really
(04:52):
focusing on, like in the in thefunnel itself, we have like the
upper level questions which arelike OK, what's the purpose
behind this instructionalstrategy or this resource, that
kind of thing.
And then we talk about thepriorities once we're like OK,
well, the purpose here is like,this is what I'm teaching here.
(05:14):
But then when we start lookingat some of the priorities, like
general overarching priorityquestion might be well, what's
the priority in your instructionor assessment for that day,
this period, that student, andwhat are your priorities when
you're designing the instruction?
So I think and feel free tojump in because I'll just rattle
(05:40):
on for a while here but, um,but there's teachers forget that
they're the teacher sometimesand they're in control of what
they bring to their students.
And so I've had a fewconversations about the design.
So like, yes, you have thesematerials, but the publishers of
(06:01):
that book don't know who's infront of you.
Like, this is a general guide,so they give you plenty of ideas
and they give you the content,but they don't know specifically
the kids that sit in your seats.
So they kind of forget thatthey have the ability to take
what's there in front of themand design it for their students
(06:23):
.
And so sometimes that feelsagain overwhelming because
they're like well, it's alreadyin the book and why am I like
redoing it?
I'm like, but you're notredoing it.
One of the one of the thingsthat I've told teachers is like,
cause, a lot of the materialsare digital right, so all the
tabs are open and the screen islike got all the stuff on it and
(06:45):
I'm like just read through whatyou're teaching for that day or
that week then, close yourcomputer and just think about
okay, what do I actually need toteach this week?
What's our objective, what's theexpectation, whatever the
language is, what's the learningtarget?
What's the learning target,summarize it and then design
what you're going to teachyourself.
(07:06):
So you are still going to gointo your guides and use the
text and use some of thosestrategies, but just really pare
down, like once you know whatyour priority is, after you've
(07:27):
read through everything and doneyour mental summary or written
summary, just pare down Likewhat do you actually really need
to teach this?
Like on Monday or Monday toWednesday, and that's helped
some teachers.
Just be like, oh, actually,yeah, I kind of thought I always
had to have everything open.
So I'm looking at all thethings and I'm like, no, don't,
that's just like it's a reallybad idea and it's like bad for
you mentally to have all thatvisual clutter.
(07:48):
First of all, and then, it justlike stresses you out.
So it that's been aninteresting set of conversations
with a few different teachers,because I've you know I'm
hearing similar things.
What do you think about allthat?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I think that's important to note, and even
adding on to that is you mayhave adapted or modified
something once for one group ofkids, but you may need to keep
doing it because your kiddosthat are in front of you in the
(08:23):
following years are notnecessarily going to be needing
exactly what you adapted thefirst time.
So it is.
It is kind of part of part ofthe deal is that you've got to
keep being responsive, uh, tothe people that are in front of
you, right?
So yeah, that that thatpublished book isn't going to
(08:47):
meet the needs of everyone yearafter year after year.
There's just no way, like we'rehuman beings, there's no way
that it's going to be the rightthing for everybody.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Right, and some schools not many that I work
with, but I've had thisexperience where you're told by
your administrators like we'reteaching this with fidelity and
that can mean different thingsright.
So, like, does that mean you'rejust teaching, you know, lesson
(09:18):
one this day, lesson two thenext day, or does that mean like
you've got to use all the stuffthat's in there, because that's
a different type of fidelity?
So I think it's important tounderstand what that means as
people, instructionalpractitioners, right, Like it's
not reasonable and I hope tothink that you know
(09:42):
administrators or curriculumcoaches are not making teachers
teach all the things because Imean there's just not enough
time anyway, so it's notrealistic.
But when we're talking aboutteaching with fidelity, it's
like, yes, we're going to usethis unit as it is in this pace,
and so we're all going to tryto stick together.
But within that, we have to askthe questions is this going to
(10:05):
meet the needs of the studentsthat are in front of me?
And if not, I'm not going to dothat or I'm going to modify it.
And so I think that's a reallyimportant thing to just
distinguish between is what doesthat mean if we have to really
teach it to the book versus like, how much do we get to modify?
And that kind of thing?
(10:26):
Because that can relieve someof the stress for teachers too,
because, like, that is apressure right to stay with the
pacing guide and with your othercounterparts on your grade
level, but it's also just youhave to to move along too.
So that's why we have pacingguides to help us out.
But it's like we can't.
If our students need more timewith something, we have to
(10:47):
provide that time.
And then you know we've talkedabout planning and buffers and
things like that in the past.
So it comes down to how that'sgoing to look long-term as well.
But yeah, one of the keyquestions in this section of the
funnel that I often talk aboutwith teachers is how can we
(11:09):
effectively differentiate tomeet all learners' needs without
getting complicated?
And I think now that becomesmore of a universal design for
learning approach, right?
So if we have planned out, ifwe're using our resources that
are in front of us, or if you'recreating your own curriculum,
(11:31):
you know, either way you'relooking at your students first
and then you're looking at, okay, well, here's our standard that
we're going to meet, how are wegoing to approach this?
And so often I feel like thatfeels like the most
uncomplicated way to look at it,right, like starting with them
(11:52):
and the standard and then like,okay, well, how are we going to
build out from there there?
Because then you're notstarting with the resource first
and then trying to fit yourkids into it, which is what
teaching is a lot of the time,and that's I mean we have to
plan like that because that'swhat we have.
But what are your thoughts onthat?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
no, I think.
I think this is a reallyimportant discussion because it
comes back to that purpose, partof the filtering down of the
funnel because you have to firstknow what is our purpose in
using this material.
Is it to follow it like ascript, day by day, page by page
(12:35):
, because that is going to leadyou to very different priorities
and what you can and can't paredown?
Or is the purpose of this aresource that we can pull from
or adapt or modify from, becausethose are two very different
purposes that are going to leadyou in very different directions
?
So I think, yeah, bringing itall back again to that funnel
(12:58):
and starting with the purpose isso crucial when you're dealing
with those instructionalmaterials, because without a
clear vision of the purpose, youcan kind of end up wandering
down the wrong path, can't you?
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
For sure.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Yeah, it's an ongoing conversation conversation too.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
I've been having.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
So, like some teachers, they really their mind
is just really hooked into.
I have all this stuff and I'moverwhelmed, and it's been hard
for teachers to kind of get past, even with the coaching, like,
okay, well, let's think aboutwhat we're doing here, what's?
What is the purpose of all ofthis stuff, or what's the
(13:44):
purpose of this, and how are wetrying to navigate what your
priorities are while meeting theneeds of your students?
And so bringing the students tothe forefront has been really
helpful for teachers to kind ofrefocus on, like what they're
doing in the classroom, becauseit's, it's about them, right
(14:04):
it's about are they going tomeet the expectations?
am I providing the best kind oflearning opportunities that I
can, or am I just deliveringthis content, because that's
what I feel like it can do?
So this kind of student focused,student centeredness of the
(14:24):
conversation is helpful toteachers, especially at this
point, because I know this isgoing to like time date us in
our podcast a little bit, butwe're like midway through an
academic year and so sometimesyou know you're getting to the
point where you're like I'mgetting, like I'm getting more
(14:45):
lost, like I feel like there'sjust so many things happening
right now and so re-centering onokay, let's look at how your
students are progressing.
Let's look at this student worksample Like what else?
What direction do we need to go?
So just kind of making it lesscomplicated by just paring back
the resources and just focusingon students is super helpful.
(15:09):
So I don't want to likemonopolize our podcast recording
time with, like my ramblesabout that, but it's's just.
I think that's such animportant part of the book even
though there's like lots ofimportant parts but that that
triple p funnel and particularlylike in this moment in time, I
feel like that really speaks outto me is that instructional
(15:33):
funnel?
Speaker 2 (15:34):
yeah, absolutely yeah , I.
I mean, there's so many,there's so many good bits isn't
there.
But well, that might be biasedbut so many so many, um, so many
, so many parts that bring backgood memories and a good
reminder, even even for myself,I think I think I want to touch
(15:57):
on.
So yeah, chapter one we we'relooking at creating a culture of
minimalism in the classroom and, interestingly enough, the way
the chapter is organized is kindof following the triple p
funnel that you were justtalking about, tammy.
So we start off with with thepurpose what is the purpose
behind creating this culture ofminimalism?
(16:18):
And then it goes into somepriorities.
So I would like to just readthis first little paragraph here
around what the purpose is.
So this is how it starts off.
The term culture can bring tomind a variety of different
images or meanings.
This can encompass anythingfrom language or food to the
(16:41):
arts or family structures.
Ultimately, a culture is ashared set of values and
practices that are held by agroup of people.
A culture of minimalismrequires members of a group, in
this case your classroom, torecognise and work toward making
use of currently availableresources and know more in order
to best support therequirements and expectations of
(17:02):
the community.
While a minimalist culture inclassrooms may seem
unconventional, overlyinnovative or unrealistic, now
this approach is becoming moreand more socially acceptable.
Rather than superficiallyattempting to meet students'
needs by buying things, addingmore tasks or creating more
paperwork, there is a shift toinstead maximise existing
(17:24):
resources in the community andcreate a lifelong practice and
lifestyle of appreciation,efficiency and sustainability.
Reach, yes, right, and I feellike that is still very true
that people are trying to thinkabout what is sustainable, what
(17:45):
is meaningful, what isthoughtful, and appreciating
what we already have.
So I think that that is stilltrue, even though it's a couple
of years since the book has comeout.
True, even though it's a coupleof years since the book has
come out.
And then I want to turn alittle bit to the top three
priorities in creating thisculture that we've put out here.
So priority one is positivewell-being and avoiding burnout.
(18:10):
Priority three is managingwaste beyond the four R's.
Yeah, and I think this isdefinitely still really relevant
(18:30):
and something that we should bethinking about.
I don't think educatorwellbeing has improved.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
No At all, I don't think so either.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Educator well-being has improved?
No at all.
In fact, I think it might havegone in a worse direction.
It's worse.
So I think it really is apriority for us to consider ways
in which we can help in thatarena, for sure.
And I think we do need toreconceptualize what waste is,
because we do often justassociate the word waste with
(19:03):
physical things, trash, thingsthat we can throw away.
But it is so much more.
It is that emotional waste,it's that cognitive waste, it's
economic waste that we arebattling with all the time in
this field.
And then, when we talk aboutmanaging waste, we're talking
about recycling.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
But also reusing, repurposing and repairing as
well.
Yeah, I think it's importantfor us to think kind of outside
of the box when we are, when weare eliminating things, because,
like when we are, when we areeliminating things because like
it is daunting to haveclassrooms full of stuff and
that's a real thing for everyeducator we know that people
have moved classrooms and theprevious teachers left stuff
(19:49):
behind, thinking it's helpfuland it's not.
We have like there's justschools are loaded with things,
and so that's often kind of thefirst thing that we think of
potentially and it's a reallytangible thing for educators to
attach on to, because everybodycan relate to that drain, the
(20:10):
emotional drain and waste thatjust like we're talking about
you know why.
Why do we have schools ingeneral?
Because we're educating thenext generation.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
That seems obvious, but we lose sight of that with
all of this crazy minutiae whenyou say getting caught up in in
the minutiae, that's what Ithink of is is things like email
time suckage, that that hastaken over what we do, and it it
doesn't seem like we havechoice in that yeah we can't
(20:51):
choose not to read or respond toemails, does it?
Speaker 3 (20:55):
no, it't, and I think an important thing, though, to
do is just have your set timeswhen you are checking it, so
that you are doing part of youknow it's part of your job
responsibility, but people can'ttell you when to look at it,
Right?
So, like, maybe it's the firstfive minutes of your day, the
(21:16):
end 10 minutes, depending onwhen the most messages are, and
that's kind of it, because thenwe get lost in all of the stuff
that like, and how important arethose emails?
Right, cause we also get spamthat gets in there sometimes,
and usually schools are betterwith having spam filters, but
(21:37):
not always.
And, um, yeah, I just thinkthat you have to have the
boundary for when you're lookingat things and when it feels
most appropriate and it doesn'tcause you, uh, additional mental
stress or like feeling likeyou're being pushed to
(21:58):
constantly look at yourcommunications when that's not
our primary focus or it's notthe only focus, right?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
yeah for sure, yeah for sure.
You know, and I think, I think,coming back to those three
priorities, you know reallyconsidering preventing that
stress and overwhelm and, youknow, really understanding all
the different categories ofwaste that we're experiencing.
(22:31):
I think that is a reallypoignant part of what we were
trying to do with with the book,don't you think?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
I do and, um, when I've done conference sessions on
this part of the book withpeople, so like teachers,
coaches, admin will come intothe sessions.
And when I start talking aboutthis kind of like
reconceptualizing waste you knoweveryone's aware of all like
(23:02):
the mental ways, theintellectual waste, they're
aware of it, but I think youknow making almost like naming
it as waste, like not just timeweight, because we're used to
saying oh, that was such a wasteof time or the waste of money,
like that's common, but we don'toften say that's such a waste
(23:24):
of my mental energy and it is.
There's so much of that and Ithink like there's some
epiphanies that happen there,like know this is happening, but
I didn't really think of it inthat way and but it is.
It is like a waste of a preciousresource which is you, the
(23:45):
person yeah like we are gettingdrained because you know there's
just so many things to dealwith.
There's when we're dealing, whenwe're working with people, like
there's just so many things todeal with, when we're working
with people, like there's justso many layers of engagement and
interaction that we just havebecome so used to it.
(24:06):
But then when you put in someof these like traumatic things
that happen at schools as well,whether it's like abuse or
violence or like things comingfrom home, you know, families
living in poverty all of that isand I don't like to call it
mental waste, but it adds to themental stress and the emotional
(24:29):
stress that teachers feel andjust feel and just being who we
are as caregivers and educators,like we take that on without
intentionally doing so.
It's just part of our natureoften and so it's hard to like
not think about students andfamilies when we're out of the
(24:52):
physical school space and thatjust becomes.
You know it's important thatwe're thinking about the people
that we work with, but it'sdraining and it's a lot, it's a
lot.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
It is?
It's making me think.
I want your opinion onsomething that I've gotten into
the habit with.
So I, just, while listening toyou, you talk I've realized that
quite often I will start a teammeeting by saying, look, I had
this on my agenda for somethingfor us to do, you know, like
(25:27):
talk about, you know, reflectingor looking at assessments or
this new initiative that'scoming up, but do we have the
bandwidth to tackle this rightnow and not to put to the side
the important work that we needto do?
But I'm trying to be consciousof the fact that me spending the
(25:48):
day talking to adults puts youin a very different mind space
to people who are in front ofthe kiddos, and so you know we
don't want to waste our timetrying to tackle something we're
not quite ready for, yeah, butalso trying to acknowledge the
fact that you might not be readyfor it.
(26:08):
You might be ready for it, butyou might not be ready for this
work right now.
So do you think that's ahelpful strategy or do you think
sometimes we just need to geton it and get what we need to
get done done?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Well, yeah, I think that just leaving that space
open to say I need a minute,like yeah it was a rough day Can
we just have like a coupleminutes to just like sit in
silence or something like that.
But I do.
You know we do have things thatare on the agenda that might be
time sensitive and might not be, but I think providing that
(26:48):
space at the start of a meetingjust to have that check-in is I
think teachers really value that, because then you're hearing,
you know you're just leaving thespace open for them to voice
how they feel or what share.
What's going on.
One of the things thattransformational coach Alina
Aguilar she, she does somethingsimilar.
(27:11):
Where she allows, she has thislike transition period.
So if she's meeting withteachers, she'll like verbalize
okay, we're transitioning from aday of teaching that may have
been great, may have been hard,whatever the thing is.
Maybe something personalhappened, but we are
transitioning into thisprofessional learning space and
(27:32):
so we'll take two minutes tolike do this Mindfulness or
whatever it is that she hasplanned, and then we're going to
shift into this work and so Ithink that, like naming that to
where we're, we're transitioningfrom this space to that,
recognizing this has been agreat day, terrible day,
(27:55):
whatever, and we're going tomove forward because these are
some of the things we still needto do for our students and for
ourselves.
So, like it's going to help ourstudents, it's going to help us
as teachers.
It'll help clarify some things,whatever the task is.
So I think that's a reallyvaluable practice to I.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
I like that, I like the naming it, I like the naming
it.
But I think I might borrow thatand try and build that in a
little bit more, rather thanjust saying you know, are we
ready?
Speaker 3 (28:25):
right, yeah yeah and and also like she talks about,
because you know we also needventing space, but there's, um,
there's I don't want to sayeffective venting, but like just
enough and then too much.
So there's like this boundaryof time and I forget what the
(28:45):
number is I want to say sevenminutes or something but like
everybody needs a little vent,um.
And so being thoughtful aboutwho you're venting to is one
thing, but if there's a bigthing that's happened at the
school and people need to likevoice their opinions, like
setting a timer for a minute ortwo for people to just vent to,
(29:06):
like a partner can just helpunload some of that mental
stress too, and then, same thing, we're going to transition and
so we've had the vent.
Now we're going to have likesome kind of productive, like
take a few breaths and thenwe're going to move into this
Cause like it's the reality,right, there's frustrating
things that come up and we'relike well, you know that just
(29:27):
threw my whole day off, becausenow I'm thinking about this
other thing and we don't wantthings to derail our entire days
when they know, but just sayingit out loud can be very helpful
to get it off your chest, sheor she's.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
We've gone into another tangent here, but I love
her work around creating normsas well oh, me too yeah maybe we
need a whole other episode on.
I think we do work on that.
Let's make a note of that.
But just to bring it back again, what we're talking about is
like giving that space to trynot to waste people's time and
(30:03):
emotions and effort and to bringit back to that idea of
building this culture wherewe're not burning people out,
that we're actually beingproductive and efficient and
hopefully joyful in what we'redoing.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
I agree, and part of that is like we're building each
other's emotional intelligencewhen we do these kinds of things
as well, and when we have, youknow, strong, emotionally
intelligent adults, we translatethat, can, you know?
We build that into how we teachour students and that again, do
(30:41):
well with what we have and notadding things to our plate I
(31:02):
guess again, cliche, but youknow it is a plate that's
overloaded um, but when we canbuild a strong culture of like
really focusing on what mattersand we're just setting ourselves
up for success yes, it is niceto look back at the work and and
(31:23):
realize that it's stillrelevant and something that we
care about, isn't it?
it really is.
It's definitely an evergreenapproach to thinking, because we
know it's lifestyle choicesright comes from different
lifestyles and just finding thevalue in what we're doing and
(31:46):
not just doing things to do themor be frivolous or or just
follow trends even, which is athing that can happen.
So it's nice to come back tothose ideas of focus, finding
clarity and doing the best thatwe can with what's in front of
(32:08):
us.
Absolutely Thanks for thisdiscussion, christine.
I'm realizing now we didn'tnecessarily do a paredown
pointer, as we ask our guests todo, but I think that the
pointer would be to, if youhaven't read the book, give it a
read and talk with somecolleagues about it and, um,
(32:32):
just kind of get this movementstarted.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
For sure, and I think we'll leave it there.
So enjoy and we'll see you nexttime.
Everyone, Today's episode wasbrought to you by Plan Z
Professional Learning Servicesforward-thinking educator
support.
Find out more atplanzplservicescom.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Be sure to join Tammy and Christine and guests for
more episodes of the MinimalistEducator podcast.
They would love to hear aboutyour journey with minimalism.
Connect with them at planzplson Twitter or Instagram.
The music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
Gaia Moretti.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com