October 21, 2025 • 29 mins
Courage isn't just a virtue, it's a skill that can transform our educational environments when practiced intentionally. In this compelling conversation with returning guest, Ming Shelby, we explore how educators can cultivate courage in challenging situations and discover unexpected joy through letting go.
Ming shares a powerful personal story about facing an unexpected confrontation with a colleague. Rather than responding defensively or avoiding the conflict, she demonstrated the "power of the pause" by suggesting they revisit the conversation "when we're both resourceful." This simple yet profound technique created space for emotions to settle before engaging in what became a productive dialogue that preserved dignity on both sides. Most importantly, Ming addresses the timing of difficult conversations – waiting too long allows feelings to fester, while addressing issues promptly (within hours, not weeks) prevents additional complications.
The conversation takes a provocative turn when Ming suggests that a necessary courageous shift in education involves "teachers letting go of control." Through illuminating examples ranging from kindergarten flexible seating to high school assessment practices, she illustrates how thoughtful release of control benefits everyone in the educational ecosystem. For educators hesitant to make changes, Ming recommends starting small: "It's not a one-time conversation...what if we tried this one thing?" This gradual approach honors the personal nature of teaching while still encouraging growth.
We dive into positive psychology's role in education, exploring the "broaden and build theory" which explains how positive emotions expand our vision of what's possible with students. Ming shares how she transformed negative team meetings into spaces of celebration by simply changing the opening ritual to sharing positive experiences – a reminder that small structural changes can dramatically shift school culture. As Ming notes in her pare-down pointer: "Courage is contagious... courage is also a muscle. So keep practicing."
This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education Services.
Find our book The Minimalist Teacher and Your School Leadership Edit: A Minimalist Approach to Rethinking Your School's Ecosystem at the links!
Follow on Instagram @PlanZEducation and @minimalist_ed_podcast.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast is a Plan Z Education Services adventure.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:16):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast,
where the focus is on aless-is-more approach to
education.
Join your hosts, christineArnold and Tammy Musiawski,
authors of the MinimalistTeacher and your School
Leadership.
Edit a minimalist approach torethinking your school ecosystem
each week, as they explorepractical ways to simplify your
(00:36):
work, sharpen your focus andamplify what matters most so you
can teach and lead with greaterclarity, purpose and joy.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
In this week's episode we have returning guest
Ming Shelby.
We continue our conversationabout positivity and having
courage.
Her pare-down pointer is how weneed to practice being
courageous.
Ming Shelby is a TEDx speaker,a National Board Certified
Educator who has dedicated hercareer to inspiring students,
teachers and administratorsthrough learning experiences.
(01:09):
Ming is currently the Directorof Professional Learning in the
suburbs of Chicago.
She believes that courage is acritical ingredient for student
transformation.
Ming has facilitated workshopsfor adults and youth in Asia,
australia, europe and the UnitedStates.
She also builds courage beyondthe classroom to support kids
and adults through her podcastCourage Up.
(01:30):
Hello and welcome to thisweek's episode of the Minimalist
Educator podcast.
We are joined today by MingShelby, a returning visitor.
Welcome, ming, how are you?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I'm good.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be back to seeboth of you and to continue our
conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, we're very excited to have you back with us
.
We spoke a couple of seasonsago about courage and courageous
conversations and we're reallyexcited to build on that
conversation.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what you've been up to
since we spoke to you last?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Oh my gosh.
Okay, since the last time we'vespoke, I've just continued to
talk about courageousconversations, and they pop up
in all sorts of areas.
I see it with my boys.
I have twin boys who are insecond grade and their
(02:32):
interactions, theirrelationships.
I see it in schools, withteachers to teachers, teachers
to administrators,administrators to administrators
.
It's just like everywhere, allthese interactions and chances.
And I myself had a really tough,courageous conversation and, if
(02:55):
you don't mind me sharing, Iteach this internal university
course and I was caught offguard by another teacher and she
was upset with a decision thatI had made and I wasn't
expecting it in the moment.
It was right at the beginningof class and she was using a lot
(03:18):
of words loudly at me and Ikind of froze in the moment and
usually I try to engage and Ijust paused and said let's talk
about this when we're bothresourceful and she's like okay,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,okay.
We had two hours of classtogether.
Then she came back up and saidI would, I want to take you up
(03:42):
on that conversation.
Great, we scheduled it and wehad a courageous conversation
where she got to share herperspective, I got to share mine
and I have to tell you, in thatmoment I don't really know how
I got through those two hoursbecause I was so shaken up.
You have that feeling whenyou're prepared to do something
(04:03):
and then something unexpectedhappens and someone's yelling at
you and telling they didn'tlike your choice and how could
you?
And almost like challengingyour character of who you are as
a person.
And it was so great to be opento listening, to be open to
hearing her perspective and weboth were able to come with a
(04:32):
compromise and I didn't changemy decision.
It wasn't because we had thisconversation all of a sudden
that my decision had changed,but rather that I think we
approached each other withkindness, with empathy, with
understanding, and I walked outof the conversation and I can't
speak for her, but I'm guessinglike this relief over me of this
(04:58):
is resolved.
I was able to maintain mydignity, her dignity, and I
think about how often whensomething like that happens, a
big confrontation and whathappens for me is I stew, I
replay it over in my head overand over again.
I call my great girlfriend, aclose friend, who's like?
(05:19):
And I rehash like can youbelieve this happened?
And just kind of keep goingdown that spiral of a tunnel and
to stop and say, nope, I'mgoing to try something different
, I have skills, I know better,and it was.
I think our relationship, myrelationship with that teacher,
is better and my relationshipwith myself, because I was
(05:40):
really proud of how I handledthat situation, because I was
really proud of how I handledthat situation.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Thank you for sharing that.
That is such a great reflectionand, as you were sharing that
story, it just reminded me ofAlina Aguilar often talks about,
like the power of a pause,right.
So like you definitely tookthat moment to just say like
let's take a moment and we, youknow we'll come back, which then
(06:06):
gives us that chance to likedeescalate some of that
emotionality that we can feel,because teaching is very
personal and coaching ispersonal and but it's hard to
forget.
I'm sorry, it's not hard to,it's hard, it's hard to remember
.
It's easy to remember, it'seasy to forget.
(06:26):
Easy to forget, yes, in themoment, because we're just
charged right.
And you experienced thisunexpected thing and it made me
think too of this experience Ihad this year where an assistant
principal told me that one ofthe teachers didn't want to talk
(06:48):
to me anymore and I'm like Iwas just taking it back and I
didn't know what to do with itat the moment.
So I kind of somewhatinstinctively like laughed
because I was like just soconfused.
I'm like I don't understandwhat happened necessarily.
Like you know, we had some hardconversations and I felt like
(07:08):
there was a lot of couragehappening in those hard
conversations that was gettingdeveloped.
But, man, I was just takenaback and I just didn't know
what to do with it at the momentuntil I had some time to like
think about it, you know.
But thank you for sharing thatstory, in particular because I I
imagine there's a lot ofrelatability for school leaders,
(07:31):
coaches, teachers that havefelt that.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Christine yeah, yeah, no, I just wanted to add it on
as well, that I I think a reallygood thing to point out here is
don't let the pause go on fortoo long.
Don't feel like you're havingto duck and weave away from that
person and avoid them.
Don't leave it too long, right,because then it just gets more
(07:57):
and more awkward and can bringup other feelings.
So I feel like that's a reallygood point of yeah, like two
hours, like what you said,that's a great time frame to let
everyone cool a little bit, butit's not letting any other
feelings settle in either.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
That's such a great point, Christine, because I know
for me if I have the pause andthen it's like a day goes by,
two days goes by, a week goes by, a month goes by, and then we
get really comfortable withletting that go.
So that is a great distinctionyou added, Tammy.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
I was going to say in kind of conjunction with that,
because then we get distractedby other things, right?
So how would you handle, likewhat, if you didn't have time in
that day?
How would you approach makingsure that you get that
conversation had and resolved?
Speaker 3 (08:50):
so with this particular situation.
So it was in the beginning, andthen two hours later we touched
base again and then sheactually sent me an email right
away and was like let's set up atime.
So we then set up an additionaltime.
But I would say, if you're theperson and it doesn't really
(09:11):
matter which side you're onright, but scheduling that
calendar invite right away, ofmaking time, because this is how
I get super distracted, likeyou said, tammy, and then I'm
like, oh my gosh, I was supposedto talk to this person three
weeks ago, and then people startmaking up stories of why you're
not reaching out and what'staking, so all of that.
(09:34):
So I would say, a strategy thatworks for me is sending a
calendar invite right away andeven if they reject it, then
they'll say they'll propose anew time.
So we're getting.
We're still keeping thatconversation alive and moving.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Just thinking about the idea of courage in our
educational settings, whateverthey may be.
What sort of a courageous shiftwould you see as important for
whether it's schools, or to makein the next couple of years?
If you think about education asa whole, where should we
courageously move ourselvestowards, do you think?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Okay, christine, I think people might be really mad
at me saying this, but I reallydon't, and it's also really
simple.
A courageous shift would be forteachers to let go of control.
Here's what I've noticed.
(10:35):
Yeah, keep going.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Yeah, I was going to say yikes, that's a big yikes
for so many people.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I think here's my observation and Christine, I
would love for you to weigh inon this of because you are in a
different part of the world thanwe are.
If this is also true, what Inoticed is most teachers like
having things set, which isgreat, like the organization,
the planning.
(11:01):
They went into teaching becausethey liked the color tabs, the
different color post-it notes.
There's that part of it, or youlike, really love your content
and subject area, like thesekids must know everything about
something really obscure thathappened in 1892.
You know so teachers are reallypassionate about their content,
(11:30):
their students, theirstrategies, and that can
sometimes get in the way ofstudent agency, and courage and
student agency to me are reallyclosely linked and for that to
happen, I think, letting go.
So, like some examples thatcome to mind for me personally,
(11:52):
when I taught in kindergartenand first grade you're going to
think I'm crazy when I tell youthis my kids did not have
assigned seats.
Each day they came in and theyhad a different seat, because
what happened was classicteacher, I had assigned seats
and I said every couple of weeksyou'll get a new seat and of
course, every couple of weeks Iwould forget.
(12:13):
So the kids would say when arewe getting new seats?
You said we would.
I'm like you're absolutelyright.
Then I would scramble, do itthe next day and the pattern
would repeat.
So I was like why am I owningall of this?
Let's try this.
And of course, I had to setstructures of how do we pick a
(12:34):
good seat, where do you put yourstuff, all that kind of stuff,
structures of how do we pick agood seat, where do you put your
stuff, all that kind of stuff.
And it was amazing.
The kids did exactly what theyneeded to do.
They made great choices that Inever had a single issue.
Now, okay, wait, maybe take thenever.
There was one student and soone day he had to sit in a seat
(12:54):
that was close to the board tosupport his learning, and then
he was like yeah, that was goodfor me.
Okay, let me try to figure outthis the next day.
So that's an elementary example.
I talked to a colleague whotaught high school English and I
said what did you stop doingthat brought you greater joy as
a teacher?
What did you let go?
(13:15):
And he was like I stoppedgrading everything Because,
thinking about high schoolEnglish teachers, you have 90
plus 100 plus students.
When you assign a paper it'smultiple pages times that.
I think one person did the mathLike, even if I did three
minutes a paper, it's still ninehours of grading or something
(13:36):
like that three minutes a paper,it's still nine hours of
grading or something like that.
So he talked about how he justfocused on the standard and
graded for the standard of thatpaper and not like the grammar
and the interesting hook andevery little thing.
And not only was it better forstudents because they got really
precise feedback on what to getbetter, but also for him.
(13:58):
So it wasn't like okay, here Igo, another three hours tonight
of grading and then the cycleand pattern continue.
So those to me are two examplesand maybe you would have some
too of like thinking of when didyou just let go and increased
your joy?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
I was literally just talking about this the other day
with some people at school,because we have an inquiry
approach which is very muchabout, you know, kind of letting
the kids lead you in whatthey're interested in and so on.
But it's really trickysometimes because you want to be
organized and you want to beplanned, and so you know you
(14:40):
make this planner of this wholeinquiry cycle and you know it's
quite possible that you don'tactually consult the kids at all
in that process.
So, yeah, I was literally justtalking about this the other day
, but I feel like I'm for myselfas well, my practice.
I'm constantly talking topeople about circles of control,
like when something's happeningthat you don't agree with or
(15:01):
you don't like, like is this inmy control at all?
No, okay, I need to let it go.
Just let it go, as you say,ming.
So I think that's a reallyimportant one, even though, yeah
, I don't know people, but Iagree with you.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Well, I think it takes a lot of courage.
It's so much courage to say,okay, like I'm going to let that
go, I'm going to not worryabout that, I'm going to trust
that it's going to work out andthere's some element of belief
with structure right, that it'sgoing to turn out okay, it's
(15:37):
interesting.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
I was coaching a teacher first year teacher and
he doesn't have a teachingbackground, and so he had shared
with me like how he had thisvery false conception of, or a
misconception of, what teachingwas right, and so he was
envisioning just really likegetting up and talking to kids
about the things, all the things, that he was trying to teach
(15:59):
them, but then he had he wasfailing miserably with, like
classroom management because hedidn't have any strategies.
And he's like I feel like I'vetried everything and I'm like,
well, there there's things thatyou have to do, like you have to
be consistent with whateveryour structure is, and so
there's that piece of it.
(16:20):
But also, like when I observedhim, like you're exerting a lot
of control, there's a lot oflike power struggle going on.
So even though, as a teacheryou know, we kind of have this
illusion sometimes that we haveall the control, that's a great
word, Tammy.
(16:41):
But like we're letting the kidsperceive that we have all the
control, but we need to givethem choice, right, because then
we get all this backlash andthat's what was happening.
And so I thought it was supercourageous for him to just admit
that to me as a brand newteacher and say, like I was so
wrong, I don't know what to do.
Like what are some things that Ineed to do to like kind of fix
(17:05):
this situation?
I'm like, well, this is wherewe need to start.
And so it was really eyeopeningfor him to realize, like you
just really have to like do that, you have to let a little bit
of the control go and give themsome structured choice, because
I think there is thatmisconception for teachers to
like, if I let go of control,who's controlling the situation?
(17:28):
I can't let the kids do that,because it's going to be chaos.
Well, if that's what yourvision is, then that's what it's
going to be.
So how do you kind of have thatconversation with teachers
about like here's some thingsyou know, like here's some
things that maybe we can thinkabout letting go of, like what
(17:49):
feels comfortable to you?
How do you approach that withteachers when, like it's so
personal and like we want tograsp onto the things that we
want to control.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
I haven't figured out the magic wand to education,
but what I do know like is ittakes multiple times, it's not a
one-time conversation and it'sa play with like what if we
tried this one thing within that?
So an example that I can thinkof when I was coaching is the
(18:23):
kids had heard about likeinference and just like these
reading strategies for a while,and the teacher was like you
know, I just feel like I'm inthis routine of here's the
standard.
Well, here's what we're workingon, here's the book we're
reading, here's how we apply it.
And we're just kind of likedroning on.
And so I was like, okay, wouldyou be?
(18:45):
It sounds like you want to trysomething new.
Would you be willing tobrainstorm with me?
And so I did a lot ofparaphrasing, of just reflecting
back to me what they're sayingto me.
So it's not like this is Ming'sidea, that she wants it, but
really, tammy, you're sayingthis isn't really fun, like the
(19:06):
kids aren't really excited.
So we did this activity and itonly took a couple of minutes
and it was like my neighbor lefther trash out today and I just
thought you know what's insideof it.
So I brought it to our classtoday and I found a receipt for
some party balloons and she heldup the balloons.
(19:28):
There's some candle packagesthat were left in here, there's
like a fork with some frosting.
What do you think was happeningwith my neighbor?
And the kids were like, oh mygosh, a birthday party.
Was it a birthday party?
And then she took more stuff andshe's like, yes, how did you
(19:50):
figure that out?
And they talked about the cluesand she said you just inferred.
And they're like what, okay,and then that just like got them
excited about.
Okay, how can you findinferences in this text?
How can?
And it just was light, joyful,but still meaningful learning.
(20:11):
So I think one is that theteachers, you know, have to be
open to it to some level.
Right, if someone's totallyclosed, we're not going to open
it wide open, but we can like,maybe crack a little bit each
time and for someone who's maybea little bit more open, to ask
some of those really thoughtfulquestions of well, what would it
(20:34):
look like if students were ableto do X, y and Z?
What would you be doing whenstudents are doing X, y and Z?
What's the benefit for studentsto do X, y and Z?
What's the benefit for you.
You want to try it out together.
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I love that.
That's very cool and when we'rethinking about instruction and
the experience of teachers andstudents, I know you've got an
interest in positive psychology.
How would you connect what youknow about positive psychology
with curriculum, withinstruction, with the day-to-day
experiences of people inschools?
Speaker 3 (21:13):
I love this question, christine, because I think it's
woven throughout.
So one thing it constantly inthe back of my mind is Sonia
Libomirsky's work with broadenand build theory, which I think
you're both familiar with, right.
So really, really simplified isthat when we're our emotions
(21:33):
are negative, we're likecrouched down.
You're really tight and reallynarrow focused and you can't
really see.
It's almost like having theblinders on with the horse
blinders that's what I think ofis like you're just stewing in
these negative emotions.
But when positive emotions arein place, the blinders come off,
(21:55):
your world opens up and you'reable to see what might not have
existed before.
So you might not have seen whata student is capable of, you
might not have seen this ideathat was going to grab your
attention and students.
Access those positive emotionsgives us greater open ability I
(22:18):
think I just made that word upGreat To see what's possible.
And I think that's so cool ineducation because even though
education's been around forcenturies, there's always new
things that can help us to stayengaged, stay excited within our
(22:39):
learning.
And then I think that is superclosely tied into gratitude.
There's tons of research aroundthe power of gratitude With my
boys.
Sometimes they'll be like, well, we don't have this and we
don't have that.
I'm like you have so much likeyou ungrateful little rugrats.
And I think sometimes like wefeel that way in schools too,
(23:01):
when the students ask for moreor whatever.
But if we're able to see thegratitude, what we're grateful
for, and help students alsoaccess that, like how cool would
that be in classrooms wherethey're just filled with
gratitude, filled with courage,filled with joy, learning, I'm
(23:21):
sure it would be taking off.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
I love that.
So how have you, in, whetherworking with teachers or
teaching, what are some of thepractices that you use to work
on, like just building thatsense of like I'm grateful for
this, or like, or even likespreading kindness, like cause.
(23:44):
You're a very positive personand so you know, like we know
positive, like energies transferbetween people, and so I
envision like Ming in theclassroom and like everybody's
just happy because you're justyeah.
But so I envision like Ming inthe classroom and like
everybody's just happy becauseyou're just yeah, but you know,
like you know that's not reality, so you know.
So what are some of the thingsthat you do in your, in your
(24:06):
every day with students andteachers that just help kind of
build that sense of Okay?
Speaker 3 (24:11):
So the as you're saying this, tammy, immediately
takes back to one of my firstteam meetings as an admin.
A couple of the other people inthe meeting were really upset
about something that, aninteraction that had happened
with another admin and anotherteacher, and so they said let's
just air our grievances.
(24:31):
And they went and justcomplained.
Like each person took a turncomplaining about what was
bothering them or a behaviorthey couldn't believe happened,
and that was like a staple inthe agenda of complaining and
airing grievances.
(24:51):
Wow, and airing grievances, wow.
And I'm sure you are notsurprised that the rest of the
media was just like right, liketotally, yeah, christine's like
pushing her hands down, like,yes, your body is just like get
me out of here please.
And so we did that for a coupleof meetings.
(25:13):
And then I was like what if wejust shared something really
awesome that we saw, like can wetry that?
And that switched up the wholedynamic.
I know it sounds so silly, butrecapturing something that
happened that you're gratefulfor, that was joyful, as you're
sharing it, your brain doesn'tknow that you're retelling a
(25:36):
story To your brain.
You're living that twice,increasing your happiness,
increasing all those goodfeeling hormones, emotions that
are happening.
So that would be my firstrecommendation is that if you're
in a group, it's become acatchy like Gratitudes Day, like
on Tuesdays we share ourgratitudes, or how can you weave
(25:59):
it in?
Here's a question that I wouldask is how can gratitudes be
woven into your routines?
At what point does it makesense?
And it doesn't need to be likecorny or structured like, oh,
it's Tuesday, it's time for ourgratitudes.
It becomes like that, but itcan be pretty casual.
(26:20):
We did it at the start, beforethe class I was teaching, and it
was like what are you gratefulfor or what is something joyful
that happened in your week andpeople.
It ended up taking like 30minutes for 20 something people
to share.
It was the best 30 minutesbecause as soon as everyone was
done, you could feel it in theroom like that happiness, that
(26:43):
connection and the celebrationthat we had for one another.
So that was super cool.
So I would always start withthat of talking about your
gratitudes and I know like it'sbeen done up so much that people
are like, oh, but trust me,like it's still, it's still a
(27:03):
really great habit that's beenbacked by research that says
this works.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's there for a reason, isn'tit?
Unfortunately, I think we haveto start wrapping up already.
I think this has got to be likepart two of ten parts with you,
ming.
I think we've just got to keephaving you back again, but you
know you're a returning guestwith us, so do you have a
pare-down pointer for us today,something that you've already
(27:32):
shared or something new?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
I think last time I shared.
Courage is contagious, and justlet yourself experience courage
, let yourself find joy incourage, and each time that you
do it, it gets easier and easierand easier, because courage is
also a muscle.
So keep practicing and findpeople around to support you and
(28:02):
you will continue to rise andbecome even better than you
already are.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
That's a great way to end the show.
Thank you so much, Maine.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Thank you, this was amazing.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
This episode is sponsored by plan z education
services, supporting educatorswith forward thinking.
Professional learning that putsboth student impact and teacher
wellness at the center.
Driven by a vision to teachless, impact more, they help
educators find purpose,prioritize what matters and
simplify their practice.
Learn more more atplansieducationcom.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(28:59):
or with a colleague.
For resources and updates,visit planzeducationcom and
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Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
You.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast,
where the focus is on aless-is-more approach to
education.
Join your hosts, christineArnold and Tammy Musiawski,
authors of the MinimalistTeacher and your School
Leadership.
Edit a minimalist approach torethinking your school ecosystem
each week, as they explorepractical ways to simplify your
(00:36):
work, sharpen your focus andamplify what matters most so you
can teach and lead with greaterclarity, purpose and joy.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
In this week's episode we have returning guest
Ming Shelby.
We continue our conversationabout positivity and having
courage.
Her pare-down pointer is how weneed to practice being
courageous.
Ming Shelby is a TEDx speaker,a National Board Certified
Educator who has dedicated hercareer to inspiring students,
teachers and administratorsthrough learning experiences.
(01:09):
Ming is currently the Directorof Professional Learning in the
suburbs of Chicago.
She believes that courage is acritical ingredient for student
transformation.
Ming has facilitated workshopsfor adults and youth in Asia,
australia, europe and the UnitedStates.
She also builds courage beyondthe classroom to support kids
and adults through her podcastCourage Up.
(01:30):
Hello and welcome to thisweek's episode of the Minimalist
Educator podcast.
We are joined today by MingShelby, a returning visitor.
Welcome, ming, how are you?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
I'm good.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited to be back to seeboth of you and to continue our
conversation.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, we're very excited to have you back with us
.
We spoke a couple of seasonsago about courage and courageous
conversations and we're reallyexcited to build on that
conversation.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what you've been up to
since we spoke to you last?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Oh my gosh.
Okay, since the last time we'vespoke, I've just continued to
talk about courageousconversations, and they pop up
in all sorts of areas.
I see it with my boys.
I have twin boys who are insecond grade and their
(02:32):
interactions, theirrelationships.
I see it in schools, withteachers to teachers, teachers
to administrators,administrators to administrators
.
It's just like everywhere, allthese interactions and chances.
And I myself had a really tough,courageous conversation and, if
(02:55):
you don't mind me sharing, Iteach this internal university
course and I was caught offguard by another teacher and she
was upset with a decision thatI had made and I wasn't
expecting it in the moment.
It was right at the beginningof class and she was using a lot
(03:18):
of words loudly at me and Ikind of froze in the moment and
usually I try to engage and Ijust paused and said let's talk
about this when we're bothresourceful and she's like okay,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,okay.
We had two hours of classtogether.
Then she came back up and saidI would, I want to take you up
(03:42):
on that conversation.
Great, we scheduled it and wehad a courageous conversation
where she got to share herperspective, I got to share mine
and I have to tell you, in thatmoment I don't really know how
I got through those two hoursbecause I was so shaken up.
You have that feeling whenyou're prepared to do something
(04:03):
and then something unexpectedhappens and someone's yelling at
you and telling they didn'tlike your choice and how could
you?
And almost like challengingyour character of who you are as
a person.
And it was so great to be opento listening, to be open to
hearing her perspective and weboth were able to come with a
(04:32):
compromise and I didn't changemy decision.
It wasn't because we had thisconversation all of a sudden
that my decision had changed,but rather that I think we
approached each other withkindness, with empathy, with
understanding, and I walked outof the conversation and I can't
speak for her, but I'm guessinglike this relief over me of this
(04:58):
is resolved.
I was able to maintain mydignity, her dignity, and I
think about how often whensomething like that happens, a
big confrontation and whathappens for me is I stew, I
replay it over in my head overand over again.
I call my great girlfriend, aclose friend, who's like?
(05:19):
And I rehash like can youbelieve this happened?
And just kind of keep goingdown that spiral of a tunnel and
to stop and say, nope, I'mgoing to try something different
, I have skills, I know better,and it was.
I think our relationship, myrelationship with that teacher,
is better and my relationshipwith myself, because I was
(05:40):
really proud of how I handledthat situation, because I was
really proud of how I handledthat situation.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
Thank you for sharing that.
That is such a great reflectionand, as you were sharing that
story, it just reminded me ofAlina Aguilar often talks about,
like the power of a pause,right.
So like you definitely tookthat moment to just say like
let's take a moment and we, youknow we'll come back, which then
(06:06):
gives us that chance to likedeescalate some of that
emotionality that we can feel,because teaching is very
personal and coaching ispersonal and but it's hard to
forget.
I'm sorry, it's not hard to,it's hard, it's hard to remember
.
It's easy to remember, it'seasy to forget.
(06:26):
Easy to forget, yes, in themoment, because we're just
charged right.
And you experienced thisunexpected thing and it made me
think too of this experience Ihad this year where an assistant
principal told me that one ofthe teachers didn't want to talk
(06:48):
to me anymore and I'm like Iwas just taking it back and I
didn't know what to do with itat the moment.
So I kind of somewhatinstinctively like laughed
because I was like just soconfused.
I'm like I don't understandwhat happened necessarily.
Like you know, we had some hardconversations and I felt like
(07:08):
there was a lot of couragehappening in those hard
conversations that was gettingdeveloped.
But, man, I was just takenaback and I just didn't know
what to do with it at the momentuntil I had some time to like
think about it, you know.
But thank you for sharing thatstory, in particular because I I
imagine there's a lot ofrelatability for school leaders,
(07:31):
coaches, teachers that havefelt that.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Christine yeah, yeah, no, I just wanted to add it on
as well, that I I think a reallygood thing to point out here is
don't let the pause go on fortoo long.
Don't feel like you're havingto duck and weave away from that
person and avoid them.
Don't leave it too long, right,because then it just gets more
(07:57):
and more awkward and can bringup other feelings.
So I feel like that's a reallygood point of yeah, like two
hours, like what you said,that's a great time frame to let
everyone cool a little bit, butit's not letting any other
feelings settle in either.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
That's such a great point, Christine, because I know
for me if I have the pause andthen it's like a day goes by,
two days goes by, a week goes by, a month goes by, and then we
get really comfortable withletting that go.
So that is a great distinctionyou added, Tammy.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
I was going to say in kind of conjunction with that,
because then we get distractedby other things, right?
So how would you handle, likewhat, if you didn't have time in
that day?
How would you approach makingsure that you get that
conversation had and resolved?
Speaker 3 (08:50):
so with this particular situation.
So it was in the beginning, andthen two hours later we touched
base again and then sheactually sent me an email right
away and was like let's set up atime.
So we then set up an additionaltime.
But I would say, if you're theperson and it doesn't really
(09:11):
matter which side you're onright, but scheduling that
calendar invite right away, ofmaking time, because this is how
I get super distracted, likeyou said, tammy, and then I'm
like, oh my gosh, I was supposedto talk to this person three
weeks ago, and then people startmaking up stories of why you're
not reaching out and what'staking, so all of that.
(09:34):
So I would say, a strategy thatworks for me is sending a
calendar invite right away andeven if they reject it, then
they'll say they'll propose anew time.
So we're getting.
We're still keeping thatconversation alive and moving.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Just thinking about the idea of courage in our
educational settings, whateverthey may be.
What sort of a courageous shiftwould you see as important for
whether it's schools, or to makein the next couple of years?
If you think about education asa whole, where should we
courageously move ourselvestowards, do you think?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Okay, christine, I think people might be really mad
at me saying this, but I reallydon't, and it's also really
simple.
A courageous shift would be forteachers to let go of control.
Here's what I've noticed.
(10:35):
Yeah, keep going.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Yeah, I was going to say yikes, that's a big yikes
for so many people.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
I think here's my observation and Christine, I
would love for you to weigh inon this of because you are in a
different part of the world thanwe are.
If this is also true, what Inoticed is most teachers like
having things set, which isgreat, like the organization,
the planning.
(11:01):
They went into teaching becausethey liked the color tabs, the
different color post-it notes.
There's that part of it, or youlike, really love your content
and subject area, like thesekids must know everything about
something really obscure thathappened in 1892.
You know so teachers are reallypassionate about their content,
(11:30):
their students, theirstrategies, and that can
sometimes get in the way ofstudent agency, and courage and
student agency to me are reallyclosely linked and for that to
happen, I think, letting go.
So, like some examples thatcome to mind for me personally,
(11:52):
when I taught in kindergartenand first grade you're going to
think I'm crazy when I tell youthis my kids did not have
assigned seats.
Each day they came in and theyhad a different seat, because
what happened was classicteacher, I had assigned seats
and I said every couple of weeksyou'll get a new seat and of
course, every couple of weeks Iwould forget.
(12:13):
So the kids would say when arewe getting new seats?
You said we would.
I'm like you're absolutelyright.
Then I would scramble, do itthe next day and the pattern
would repeat.
So I was like why am I owningall of this?
Let's try this.
And of course, I had to setstructures of how do we pick a
(12:34):
good seat, where do you put yourstuff, all that kind of stuff,
structures of how do we pick agood seat, where do you put your
stuff, all that kind of stuff.
And it was amazing.
The kids did exactly what theyneeded to do.
They made great choices that Inever had a single issue.
Now, okay, wait, maybe take thenever.
There was one student and soone day he had to sit in a seat
(12:54):
that was close to the board tosupport his learning, and then
he was like yeah, that was goodfor me.
Okay, let me try to figure outthis the next day.
So that's an elementary example.
I talked to a colleague whotaught high school English and I
said what did you stop doingthat brought you greater joy as
a teacher?
What did you let go?
(13:15):
And he was like I stoppedgrading everything Because,
thinking about high schoolEnglish teachers, you have 90
plus 100 plus students.
When you assign a paper it'smultiple pages times that.
I think one person did the mathLike, even if I did three
minutes a paper, it's still ninehours of grading or something
(13:36):
like that three minutes a paper,it's still nine hours of
grading or something like that.
So he talked about how he justfocused on the standard and
graded for the standard of thatpaper and not like the grammar
and the interesting hook andevery little thing.
And not only was it better forstudents because they got really
precise feedback on what to getbetter, but also for him.
(13:58):
So it wasn't like okay, here Igo, another three hours tonight
of grading and then the cycleand pattern continue.
So those to me are two examplesand maybe you would have some
too of like thinking of when didyou just let go and increased
your joy?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
I was literally just talking about this the other day
with some people at school,because we have an inquiry
approach which is very muchabout, you know, kind of letting
the kids lead you in whatthey're interested in and so on.
But it's really trickysometimes because you want to be
organized and you want to beplanned, and so you know you
(14:40):
make this planner of this wholeinquiry cycle and you know it's
quite possible that you don'tactually consult the kids at all
in that process.
So, yeah, I was literally justtalking about this the other day
, but I feel like I'm for myselfas well, my practice.
I'm constantly talking topeople about circles of control,
like when something's happeningthat you don't agree with or
(15:01):
you don't like, like is this inmy control at all?
No, okay, I need to let it go.
Just let it go, as you say,ming.
So I think that's a reallyimportant one, even though, yeah
, I don't know people, but Iagree with you.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Well, I think it takes a lot of courage.
It's so much courage to say,okay, like I'm going to let that
go, I'm going to not worryabout that, I'm going to trust
that it's going to work out andthere's some element of belief
with structure right, that it'sgoing to turn out okay, it's
(15:37):
interesting.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
I was coaching a teacher first year teacher and
he doesn't have a teachingbackground, and so he had shared
with me like how he had thisvery false conception of, or a
misconception of, what teachingwas right, and so he was
envisioning just really likegetting up and talking to kids
about the things, all the things, that he was trying to teach
(15:59):
them, but then he had he wasfailing miserably with, like
classroom management because hedidn't have any strategies.
And he's like I feel like I'vetried everything and I'm like,
well, there there's things thatyou have to do, like you have to
be consistent with whateveryour structure is, and so
there's that piece of it.
(16:20):
But also, like when I observedhim, like you're exerting a lot
of control, there's a lot oflike power struggle going on.
So even though, as a teacheryou know, we kind of have this
illusion sometimes that we haveall the control, that's a great
word, Tammy.
(16:41):
But like we're letting the kidsperceive that we have all the
control, but we need to givethem choice, right, because then
we get all this backlash andthat's what was happening.
And so I thought it was supercourageous for him to just admit
that to me as a brand newteacher and say, like I was so
wrong, I don't know what to do.
Like what are some things that Ineed to do to like kind of fix
(17:05):
this situation?
I'm like, well, this is wherewe need to start.
And so it was really eyeopeningfor him to realize, like you
just really have to like do that, you have to let a little bit
of the control go and give themsome structured choice, because
I think there is thatmisconception for teachers to
like, if I let go of control,who's controlling the situation?
(17:28):
I can't let the kids do that,because it's going to be chaos.
Well, if that's what yourvision is, then that's what it's
going to be.
So how do you kind of have thatconversation with teachers
about like here's some thingsyou know, like here's some
things that maybe we can thinkabout letting go of, like what
(17:49):
feels comfortable to you?
How do you approach that withteachers when, like it's so
personal and like we want tograsp onto the things that we
want to control.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
I haven't figured out the magic wand to education,
but what I do know like is ittakes multiple times, it's not a
one-time conversation and it'sa play with like what if we
tried this one thing within that?
So an example that I can thinkof when I was coaching is the
(18:23):
kids had heard about likeinference and just like these
reading strategies for a while,and the teacher was like you
know, I just feel like I'm inthis routine of here's the
standard.
Well, here's what we're workingon, here's the book we're
reading, here's how we apply it.
And we're just kind of likedroning on.
And so I was like, okay, wouldyou be?
(18:45):
It sounds like you want to trysomething new.
Would you be willing tobrainstorm with me?
And so I did a lot ofparaphrasing, of just reflecting
back to me what they're sayingto me.
So it's not like this is Ming'sidea, that she wants it, but
really, tammy, you're sayingthis isn't really fun, like the
(19:06):
kids aren't really excited.
So we did this activity and itonly took a couple of minutes
and it was like my neighbor lefther trash out today and I just
thought you know what's insideof it.
So I brought it to our classtoday and I found a receipt for
some party balloons and she heldup the balloons.
(19:28):
There's some candle packagesthat were left in here, there's
like a fork with some frosting.
What do you think was happeningwith my neighbor?
And the kids were like, oh mygosh, a birthday party.
Was it a birthday party?
And then she took more stuff andshe's like, yes, how did you
(19:50):
figure that out?
And they talked about the cluesand she said you just inferred.
And they're like what, okay,and then that just like got them
excited about.
Okay, how can you findinferences in this text?
How can?
And it just was light, joyful,but still meaningful learning.
(20:11):
So I think one is that theteachers, you know, have to be
open to it to some level.
Right, if someone's totallyclosed, we're not going to open
it wide open, but we can like,maybe crack a little bit each
time and for someone who's maybea little bit more open, to ask
some of those really thoughtfulquestions of well, what would it
(20:34):
look like if students were ableto do X, y and Z?
What would you be doing whenstudents are doing X, y and Z?
What's the benefit for studentsto do X, y and Z?
What's the benefit for you.
You want to try it out together.
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
I love that.
That's very cool and when we'rethinking about instruction and
the experience of teachers andstudents, I know you've got an
interest in positive psychology.
How would you connect what youknow about positive psychology
with curriculum, withinstruction, with the day-to-day
experiences of people inschools?
Speaker 3 (21:13):
I love this question, christine, because I think it's
woven throughout.
So one thing it constantly inthe back of my mind is Sonia
Libomirsky's work with broadenand build theory, which I think
you're both familiar with, right.
So really, really simplified isthat when we're our emotions
(21:33):
are negative, we're likecrouched down.
You're really tight and reallynarrow focused and you can't
really see.
It's almost like having theblinders on with the horse
blinders that's what I think ofis like you're just stewing in
these negative emotions.
But when positive emotions arein place, the blinders come off,
(21:55):
your world opens up and you'reable to see what might not have
existed before.
So you might not have seen whata student is capable of, you
might not have seen this ideathat was going to grab your
attention and students.
Access those positive emotionsgives us greater open ability I
(22:18):
think I just made that word upGreat To see what's possible.
And I think that's so cool ineducation because even though
education's been around forcenturies, there's always new
things that can help us to stayengaged, stay excited within our
(22:39):
learning.
And then I think that is superclosely tied into gratitude.
There's tons of research aroundthe power of gratitude With my
boys.
Sometimes they'll be like, well, we don't have this and we
don't have that.
I'm like you have so much likeyou ungrateful little rugrats.
And I think sometimes like wefeel that way in schools too,
(23:01):
when the students ask for moreor whatever.
But if we're able to see thegratitude, what we're grateful
for, and help students alsoaccess that, like how cool would
that be in classrooms wherethey're just filled with
gratitude, filled with courage,filled with joy, learning, I'm
(23:21):
sure it would be taking off.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
I love that.
So how have you, in, whetherworking with teachers or
teaching, what are some of thepractices that you use to work
on, like just building thatsense of like I'm grateful for
this, or like, or even likespreading kindness, like cause.
(23:44):
You're a very positive personand so you know, like we know
positive, like energies transferbetween people, and so I
envision like Ming in theclassroom and like everybody's
just happy because you're justyeah.
But so I envision like Ming inthe classroom and like
everybody's just happy becauseyou're just yeah, but you know,
like you know that's not reality, so you know.
So what are some of the thingsthat you do in your, in your
(24:06):
every day with students andteachers that just help kind of
build that sense of Okay?
Speaker 3 (24:11):
So the as you're saying this, tammy, immediately
takes back to one of my firstteam meetings as an admin.
A couple of the other people inthe meeting were really upset
about something that, aninteraction that had happened
with another admin and anotherteacher, and so they said let's
just air our grievances.
(24:31):
And they went and justcomplained.
Like each person took a turncomplaining about what was
bothering them or a behaviorthey couldn't believe happened,
and that was like a staple inthe agenda of complaining and
airing grievances.
(24:51):
Wow, and airing grievances, wow.
And I'm sure you are notsurprised that the rest of the
media was just like right, liketotally, yeah, christine's like
pushing her hands down, like,yes, your body is just like get
me out of here please.
And so we did that for a coupleof meetings.
(25:13):
And then I was like what if wejust shared something really
awesome that we saw, like can wetry that?
And that switched up the wholedynamic.
I know it sounds so silly, butrecapturing something that
happened that you're gratefulfor, that was joyful, as you're
sharing it, your brain doesn'tknow that you're retelling a
(25:36):
story To your brain.
You're living that twice,increasing your happiness,
increasing all those goodfeeling hormones, emotions that
are happening.
So that would be my firstrecommendation is that if you're
in a group, it's become acatchy like Gratitudes Day, like
on Tuesdays we share ourgratitudes, or how can you weave
(25:59):
it in?
Here's a question that I wouldask is how can gratitudes be
woven into your routines?
At what point does it makesense?
And it doesn't need to be likecorny or structured like, oh,
it's Tuesday, it's time for ourgratitudes.
It becomes like that, but itcan be pretty casual.
(26:20):
We did it at the start, beforethe class I was teaching, and it
was like what are you gratefulfor or what is something joyful
that happened in your week andpeople.
It ended up taking like 30minutes for 20 something people
to share.
It was the best 30 minutesbecause as soon as everyone was
done, you could feel it in theroom like that happiness, that
(26:43):
connection and the celebrationthat we had for one another.
So that was super cool.
So I would always start withthat of talking about your
gratitudes and I know like it'sbeen done up so much that people
are like, oh, but trust me,like it's still, it's still a
(27:03):
really great habit that's beenbacked by research that says
this works.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
It's there for a reason, isn'tit?
Unfortunately, I think we haveto start wrapping up already.
I think this has got to be likepart two of ten parts with you,
ming.
I think we've just got to keephaving you back again, but you
know you're a returning guestwith us, so do you have a
pare-down pointer for us today,something that you've already
(27:32):
shared or something new?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
I think last time I shared.
Courage is contagious, and justlet yourself experience courage
, let yourself find joy incourage, and each time that you
do it, it gets easier and easierand easier, because courage is
also a muscle.
So keep practicing and findpeople around to support you and
(28:02):
you will continue to rise andbecome even better than you
already are.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
That's a great way to end the show.
Thank you so much, Maine.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Thank you, this was amazing.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
This episode is sponsored by plan z education
services, supporting educatorswith forward thinking.
Professional learning that putsboth student impact and teacher
wellness at the center.
Driven by a vision to teachless, impact more, they help
educators find purpose,prioritize what matters and
simplify their practice.
Learn more more atplansieducationcom.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(28:59):
or with a colleague.
For resources and updates,visit planzeducationcom and
subscribe to receive weeklyemails.
Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
You.
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