November 4, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode, we explore how trust-based observations replace ratings with strength-focused coaching that actually improves teaching. Craig Randall shares practical steps leaders can use to build trust, save time, and spark real growth in classrooms.
• origin of trust-based observations and mentor influence
• why rating pedagogy harms culture and lowers efficacy
• minimalist nine-element form for precise, strengths-based feedback
• micro-actions that lower threat and build trust
• time math: 20+20 model versus six-hour cycles
• navigating policy while shifting culture and practice
• tipping point adoption, results, and union interest
• future directions: trust-based leadership and coaching
• pared down pointer: stop write-ups, prioritize brief cycles
This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education Services.
Find our book The Minimalist Teacher and Your School Leadership Edit: A Minimalist Approach to Rethinking Your School's Ecosystem at the links!
Follow on Instagram @PlanZEducation and @minimalist_ed_podcast.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast is a Plan Z Education Services adventure.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:16):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast,
where the focus is on a less ismore approach to education.
Join your hosts, ChristineArnold and Tammy Musiowski,
authors of The MinimalistTeacher and your school
leadership edit, a minimalistapproach to rethinking your
school ecosystem.
Each week, as they explorepractical ways to simplify your
(00:37):
work, sharpen your focus, andamplify what matters most so you
can teach and lead with greaterclarity, purpose, and joy.
SPEAKER_03 (00:46):
On this week's episode of the podcast, we are
joined by Craig Randall talkingto us about trust-based
observations.
His peer-down pointer is allabout how to use our time
effectively.
Craig Randall is the developerand author of Trust-Based
Observations.
Craig has spent the last 30 plusyears in education working as a
(01:06):
counsellor, coach, teacher, andprincipal.
Craig spends the majority of histime training school leaders
Trust-Based Observations, orTBO, building mastery and
transforming the world ofteacher observations to a model
of trust and support thatfosters growth mindsets,
cultures of trust, andcollective teacher efficacy in
action.
In addition, Craig speaks atconferences, is working on a new
(01:30):
book, and hosts the 20 Minutesof Teaching Brilliance, On the
Road with Trust-BasedObservations Podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (01:48):
Christine and I are talking with Craig Randall
today, and we are very excitedto have you here today.
Craig, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
Thanks.
I'm super excited to be heretoo.
I like the theme of what youguys are doing.
SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
Thank you.
You do some really interestingwork around a bunch of things,
which we'll get into.
But can you give us a little bitof background to kind of how you
got into your focus aroundteacher observations?
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
Yeah, I really started out as a school
counselor, did some collegebasketball coaching, went
overseas to work in aninternational school.
The principal there, one of theprincipals, said I think you'd
make a great principal.
And really, when I started myprincipal certification program,
I met the man who became mymentor.
And he in supervision class saidyou need to be in classes every
(02:36):
day, supporting teachers,helping them grow, focusing on
strengths, asking them what theywere doing to help students
learn, what they might dodifferently.
And it was, for me, I always sayit was like the combination of
that hallelujah music and thelight bulb at the same time.
And we practiced observationevery single day in that class.
We'd bring many lessons.
And I never ever talked toanyone that in supervision class
(03:00):
ever practices, which is almostlike going out to teaching
without student teaching.
Not exactly, of course, butthere's there's similarities.
And so I got my first assistantprincipal job in an
international school in Korea,actually.
And I had a boss that was I waslucky enough to tell him I had
this crazy idea.
And he said, great, let's do it.
(03:20):
And I didn't know anything aboutanything really except this.
But teachers loved it rightaway.
They loved, I think, that wedidn't start by telling, we
started by asking questions,which in essence is saying, I
value you and what you think asa professional.
So let's start there.
And they loved for sure that itwas strengths-based.
(03:40):
And I'll tell you, I again, Ididn't know anything, but
people, teachers, new and older,saying, You're the best
principal I ever had.
And I it wasn't me.
It was just this different tweakon observations was so
dramatically different than whatthey had before that they felt
that.
And then really it just evolvedand evolved and evolved.
(04:00):
And somewhere along the way, noteven really knowing I was
involving anything, anelementary principal I worked
with said you need to protectyour work.
And I was like, What?
And then I thought, oh wow.
I and then I presented at aconference, wrote an article,
and then turned it into a book.
SPEAKER_03 (04:18):
I had my mic off there, but when you said get in
classrooms every day, I actuallymade a noise when you said that.
Because I was like, oh my God,yes, that is just such a it's a
simple thing, but so importantjust to be there, be present,
and be with everyone for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (04:34):
And as long as it's from a strength-based
perspective, and because thereality is the way we're doing
it now, and I'm not berating themodels, they're well intended,
but Daniel Marzano, et cetera,when you're rating pedagogy, it
becomes a deficit mindsetthinking.
And so when we come in in thatmindset, teachers freeze and
they panic.
And that's not that's not goodfor culture, that's not good for
(04:55):
anybody.
But when you come in and thenthey know the next day we're
gonna have a talk about all thisgreat stuff I saw, then people
actually, believe it or not,because it sounds so
counterintuitive, think, wow,this is great that you're coming
into my class.
SPEAKER_03 (05:09):
So, yeah, there is so much fear around these
observation cycles, aren'tthere?
So, how do we move from, ifyou're in a culture already that
it is very coming from ajudgmental standpoint, how do
you move it to thisstrength-based, supportive,
building trust sort of dynamicinstead?
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
Well, ditch what you're doing and do trust-based
observations.
Duh.
It's it's tough becausedepending on what your setting
is, sometimes there's laws orrequirements around that.
And so sometimes the truth is inpublic schools, we have to
finesse.
And many of the public schoolswe do do finesse.
And we're working on changinglaws, but we know that's not
going to be overnight.
But I'll tell you right now,research is pretty clear.
(05:51):
The way we've been doing itisn't improving teaching and
learning.
Two huge studies have said that.
But they also say, and this ismaybe the more important part to
what you're talking about,Christine, is the research says
that it increases teacherdissatisfaction.
It actually causes harm.
It makes them have a lower senseof worth.
And maybe the there's a guynamed Matt O'Leary in the UK.
(06:12):
He interviewed over 4,000teachers.
His research showed that itactually lowers teacher's sense
of self-efficacy the way we'redoing it now.
That's the exact opposite.
If Hattie's collective is ourhighest effect size, which by
the way, he does say trust-basedobservations is collective
teacher efficacy in action, justhave to share that.
(06:33):
And so we have to change whatwe're doing, and we have to make
it strengths-based.
We have to take out the ratingof pedagogy.
We can still evaluate people onthings like professionalism and
how I get along with others, mymindset towards growth, things
like that.
But my teaching moves, that's mypedagogy.
So when I put a score on that,man, and and and the scores
(06:58):
don't mean anything because theydon't improve teaching and
learning, but people get madwhen they get a proficient.
And it's a, it's, it's, it's aridiculous.
Like, I don't even like toacknowledge that we have a
conversation about it becauseit's almost honoring something
we shouldn't be honoring becauseit doesn't improve teaching and
learning.
So stop writing pedagogy.
Start focusing on strengths.
When we rate pedagogy, I'm goingto say this it makes us, it
(07:21):
turns us into deficit mindsetthinkers.
We start to look at what's wrongwith our teachers instead of
what's right.
But trust takes time too.
So we have to take time and notfeel like we have to offer
suggestions right away.
Like we know things like thecompliment sandwich, two stars
and a wish, glows and grows.
Like Adam Grant had a reallynice article saying those don't
(07:41):
work.
And the reason they don't workis because people are smart and
know they know the only reasonyou're saying the nice thing is
so they can do what they reallywant and tell you what to fix.
Without trust, the needle isn'tgonna move.
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
You're bringing up such resonating points right
now, where it's like dinging inmy head.
Because as an external coachthat comes in to work with
teachers, I I love that rolebecause I'm not evaluative.
I get to truly work withteachers.
(08:14):
And but it's really hard totrain them into the strength
space, thinking around whatthey're doing.
And so I find sometimes evenmyself where, you know, they're
sucking me into their kind oflike negative thought training.
I'm like, oh, I gotta pullmyself out of this.
That's not actually what we werejust talking about.
(08:36):
I'm trying to like build you uphere.
Like I just saw some greatthings.
Let's talk about that.
Let's talk about how we canshare those things.
So, what are some things thatyou do?
And it could be like coachingquestions or you know,
activities that to to break thatnegative or desit thinking
thought cycle, because it's soingrained in us.
SPEAKER_01 (09:00):
Well, I'll tell you.
So, our form, one, not readingpedagogy helps a lot, just that.
But our form only has nine areasof pedagogy, and research says
any more than 10, you lose theforce through the trees.
Danielson has 76, Marzano has60.
And again, they'rewell-intended, but then we'd
stop seeing teaching.
Our form is so detailed that itallows us to really pinpoint
(09:22):
specific things, actions thatteachers are taking that are
strengths-based actions.
Like it could just be a specificpraise comment, or or it could
be like a quiet attentionsignal, like little things.
But when I can identifyspecifically what you're doing
and point it out to you whilewe're going over that form, it
it really, really starts tobuild you up.
(09:44):
And when we're training people,it's pretty common, not pretty
common, it's not uncommon tohave leaders on like Monday and
Tuesday, we do week-longtraining, say, okay, but when
are we gonna?
And we're like, but we'replaying the long game.
We've got 20 years now ofresearch saying this isn't
working.
If I have to wait 12 or 14 weeksbefore I offer a suggestion, but
(10:06):
now the trust is there, and thenit'll start to hit them, and
you'll start to see them overthe course of a week go from
looking at what's wrong towhat's right.
And then their shift is it, it'salmost automatic.
But then when I think this too,when you see teachers, at the
end, when we train people, wealways say, Hey, now that you've
(10:27):
had this, what do you think tothe teachers?
And they'll say two main things.
One, oh my gosh, it's so nice tohave my bucket filled.
Like we just don't hear what wedo right.
Because when you're ratings, itjust doesn't come across like
that, even if it's intended thatway.
And so they say that and thetrust starts to happen right
away.
(10:48):
So they even start to thinkabout what I should get better
at without even saying anything.
So I think though, really whatwe're talking about, Brenee
Brown talks about the connectionbetween vulnerability, trust,
and risk taking.
She says for people to takerisks, vulnerability has to be
lowered.
The way that we do that is bybuilding trust.
And she has a great analogy of ajar, and each action that we do
(11:09):
is putting a marble in that jar.
And we have to fill that jarbefore that vulnerability is low
enough.
And so, in our reflectiveconversation, because that's
really where the trust buildingmagic happens, which is
counterintuitive to think aboutit like that, because it's so
been the opposite way.
We do all these little actions,like one, we have the
conversation in the teacher'sroom.
We say, Whether you're 7, 17, or37, getting called to the
(11:32):
principal's office feels likegetting called to the
principal's office.
They feel safer in their space.
We ask permission.
Hey, is now a good time when weget to the room?
I could just come in and say,let's do it.
But that little courtesy buildstrust.
We sit beside you, not acrossfrom you, because people feel
more comfortable that way.
We tell them the goal oftrust-based observations is to
build enough trust so any of uscan observe you, see you trying
(11:54):
something new, have it be atrain wreck, but as opposed to a
traditional observation whereyou'd be freaking out, you're
not worried because you know thenext day I'm gonna say, Tammy, I
love it that you were tryingsomething new.
High five, fist bumper,whatever.
We say, because when we createthose conditions, what are you
gonna do?
Keep trying something new.
And we it just keeps going onand on.
There's all these very specificactions that build trust.
(12:16):
And then when you see yourteachers start to flip like
that, all of a sudden you fliptoo.
SPEAKER_03 (12:23):
Yeah, that's very cool.
I like that.
All those different littlepuzzle pieces almost that come
together to to they seem likenothing, but they're cumulative
and they build up.
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
And when you redo it repeatedly and you're not
offering suggestions right away,we know this as teachers.
We all get into it because wewant to make a difference in the
lives of young people.
We know there's a percentagethat's not small that kind of
lose their way and become moreset in their ways along the
along the path for all kinds ofreasons.
Toxic observations is a is agood one.
(12:55):
Sometimes just stuff at home.
What we find is I don't want tosay 100%, but almost every
teacher that's like that, theywill flip and then when it's
time, be really open to oursupported suggestions.
It's it's amazing the power ofjust changing what we're doing.
It's it's almost like behavioralscience, really.
(13:15):
I mean, I didn't think about itlike that when I was doing it,
but it just transformseverything.
SPEAKER_03 (13:22):
So, what would you say if you if you had someone in
a leadership position or acoaching position or so on who
who's like, I just don't havetime.
I really don't have time to goin there all the time and then
have the conversations.
Like, do you have a a shortversion or a quick tip that
people could do if they'rereally feeling strapped for
(13:42):
time?
SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
I'm gonna have us think about our time
differently.
And so what I'm gonna say isthis is so if we have to do
maybe not a coach, because yourcoach's job should allow you the
time to do that.
But if you're a principal or anassistant principal, fair
enough.
There are things that you haveto do, and we know the urgent
versus the important and allthat.
But if we were to take like atraditional formal observation,
(14:06):
and like I know in ChicagoPublic Schools to do one round
of Danielson with thepre-observation conference, the
write-up I have to do after, theobservation, the write-up I have
to do after, thepost-observation conference is
the write-up I have to do after,that's six hours.
Our cycle is 20 minutes and 20minutes.
20 minute observation, 20minutes.
I can do nine observations inthe exact same amount of time.
(14:27):
But I'm gonna say this too.
If our number one job isimproving teaching and learning,
which is what I believe it is,to prepare students for adult
success, then we have toprioritize time.
Does that mean sometimes we haveto look at our time?
With AI now, I mean, they oughtto be doing most of our email
work, that combined with myoffice manager, right?
I mean, we have to look andmanage that.
But I'm gonna add this piece aswell.
(14:50):
If what has been a drudgerybecause it hasn't been fun to
do, because I don't want to, Idon't want to offer it, I don't
want to tell somebody thatthey're below average when they
want something good, and I don'twant to have to spend all that
time writing up.
But now instead of that, I getto watch my teachers react with
joy.
(15:11):
All of a sudden, I it's easierto find the time too.
But then when I start to seethen I offer that suggestion and
they adopt it, and then youstart to see the growth in their
practice again, it's so mucheasier to find time when you're
seeing success.
SPEAKER_02 (15:29):
Absolutely.
So my question is there'sprobably no magic answer here,
but how do you shift the mindsetwithin school leaders to make
this type of shift?
So this model of observation andthe time use, because I too am
(15:55):
that person where like I don'tneed to be in a classroom, you
know, for a full period.
I love to because I love tointeract with the kids if I'm if
that's part of the situation.
But I really just need 20minutes and then a 20-minute
conversation afterwards that'sreally, really focused, but it's
but that's not the culturenecessarily everywhere.
(16:17):
So how do you shift that?
What's what's your magic saucepotentially?
SPEAKER_01 (16:23):
Look, I think that's hard.
And I don't think there'sthere's a simple answer.
I I think I think if we talkabout about change, and there's
Malcolm Gladwell wrote a bookcalled Tipping Point, and he
talks about change.
And I'm hoping we have a tippingpoint with trust-based
observations, and this is theway teachers love it.
I mean, it's just so muchhappier.
Like the union in Washington, Ijust spoke to a local
(16:44):
representative who wants me nowto get in touch with our
Washington Education Associationlobbyists to start to move it.
So I think that's a good thing.
But the five, there's fivestages towards a tipping point.
The first stage are theinnovators.
And those are the people that'llmaybe see a social media post on
trust-based observations or readthe first three chapters and go,
(17:05):
oh my gosh, I'm I'm I'm reachingout to Craig.
And then the next stage is theearly adopters.
And those are the people thatare almost the same way, but
they're like, I don't know, it'snew.
But then, oh, you did it?
Oh, good, I'm gonna do it too.
And if I'm being totallytransparent right now, that's
where we're at, is just thosetwo stages.
And I think somehow, someway,there's a a tipping point to use
(17:30):
the title of the book, where thenext stage is early majority,
then late majority, and thenlaggards.
I always say I never wantlaggards to do trust-based
observations.
But I think for the earlymajority, I think like, like I
think you just have to haveexposure multiple times and
multiple times and multipletimes, and you start to hear
like we have a school inCalifornia that a district in
(17:52):
California that they just roseseven and a quarter percent in
math and 12 and 3 quarterpercent in ELA.
And then we just have someone,the next person that says, all
right, I'm gonna do it too.
And then at a certain magicalpoint, at least according to
Malcolm Gladwell, then you hitthat next stage where now all of
a sudden it'll be more of a massof doing it.
Like we're on the verge of doingsomething with a county that's
(18:16):
maybe 70,000 students, and and Idon't want to name the name
until we're all the way therewith it.
But we think if we get somethingbig like that, and it's also
working with some universitieswhere there's research involved,
that'll happen too.
But I think like that's thebroad answer.
But if we're going to talk aboutmaybe, I'm not sure that's
(18:36):
helpful really in some ways toour conversation.
Sorry, maybe I went there fornothing.
But what I'll say is if you'reout there and you're a leader
and you're thinking about it,what do you have to lose?
We've got 25 years, a GatesFoundation, Annberg Study,
that's literally say noimprovement.
And then we have all this otherresearch that says causes harm.
(18:59):
I know you don't want that.
I know as a leader, you want toinspire your people, you want to
make them, you want to fostergrowth, you want them to be risk
takers, you want moreimprovement.
And change is hard and change isscary.
And you know what?
Our weekline training at site inyour building, it's full on and
it's exhausting.
(19:21):
But then you see this.
So man, you just jump, take theleap.
Get get past what's holding youback.
And that that's really the mostpractical thing I think I can
say.
SPEAKER_03 (19:34):
Yeah, it's it's hard to argue with that logic, isn't
it?
You know, if you've got happierteachers in the building who are
engaged and then the outcomesfor the kids are better, and
then I'm sure your leadershipfeels better, your parent
community is gonna feel better.
I mean, it just seems likeretention is stronger.
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
Yeah.
You know, we're in a time ofteacher shortage.
SPEAKER_03 (19:52):
Absolutely.
You seem like someone who is alifelong learner yourself.
So now that you've you've seenthe light with observations and
and where we've been, where wewant to move to, what's your
next frontier?
What do you want to find outmore about?
What are you excited about?
SPEAKER_01 (20:11):
Well, I feel really lucky because I I I have a
mission now.
Like, this is till the day Idie.
Like, if you are gonna I I'vegot friends that are close to
retirement.
And we're like, what do yougolf?
Are you kidding me?
Every Friday I get to havepeople tell me how great I am
because of this thing.
Like, why would I give up thatfor golf?
And so what I'll tell you a fewthings.
(20:32):
That one, every single week whenI'm training a school, someone
I'm training will say somethingthat makes trust-based
observations better and ittweaks every single week.
So I feel so lucky that one,that I'm open-minded to it, but
then all these other people makeit better.
But I'll say one, I've startedwhen this whole thing developed,
(20:52):
I never thought about it asleadership.
I never thought about it asculture of just what I did.
But I've really in the last fewmonths realized really,
trust-based observations isreally about leadership.
So I'm I'm working on a book nowthat's maybe trust-based
leadership, uh, an observationjourney.
And and but I also want tocreate a trust-based coaching
(21:16):
model because it's it's the samething.
And and and it also addressesblind spots because we all have
blind spots, like I just said,because people tell me every
week.
And I think sometimes thetraditional coaching model of
just letting them find it ontheir own doesn't always lead to
the blind spots.
But then the other one thatreally resonates with me is what
about above that, that on thesupervision level?
(21:37):
What about a principal to anassistant principal, a regional
superintendent to a principal, asuperintendent to anybody at the
central office?
Because the same principles haveto apply.
Because right now, central'sputting so much pressure on
principals because of our scoreobsession or whatever, then that
trickles down and the principalsfeel the same tension.
So those are other book ideasthat I'm sort of ruminating and
(22:00):
that people ask about prettyregularly.
SPEAKER_02 (22:02):
So that's awesome.
That's a logical sequence ofevents, it sounds like,
honestly.
We're at the point of our showwhere we ask our listeners for a
pared down pointer.
So it could be something thatyou mentioned already, or it
could be another tip that youhave for our listeners, where
(22:23):
you know, just it's kind of asimple strategy that people can
can walk away with in terms oftrust-based observations or
getting to that point at least.
SPEAKER_01 (22:34):
I mean, I think it does have to do with with time
and and time spent.
And like many models ofobservation right now, like when
I don't see evidence ofsomething, now that's on that
teacher to write up and submitdocumentation for why I actually
do that, even though you didn'tsee that.
(22:55):
Like, if we're gonna beminimalist and use our time
productively, like how can we beasking people for that?
Like, let's stop that.
Let's just trust that they'regonna get there, or I'm gonna
coach you to get there.
And then if if I'm an observer,like being more minimalist, like
what would I rather do?
(23:15):
20 minutes and 20 minutes?
Or would I rather like who likesto write up reports?
Raise your hand.
Yeah, nobody.
So let's stop that.
Let's make our lives simpler andmore joyful.
And if we change what we'redoing to support our teachers,
then that makes our lives morejoyful and their lives more
(23:37):
joyful.
SPEAKER_02 (23:39):
Thank you for bringing up that last point of
the joy of it, because for somereason it seems like if
something is joyful, somethingis wrong.
So we should like do theopposite, make things harder, or
you know, keep doing that harderthing that we don't actually
need to do.
So that simplification tip isyeah, that's gold for us.
(24:03):
Thank you so much for bringingbeing with us today, Craig.
SPEAKER_01 (24:06):
Thank you.
It was a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_03 (24:10):
This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education
Services, supporting educatorswith forward-thinking
professional learning that putsboth student impact and teacher
wellness at the center.
Driven by a vision to teachless, impact more, they help
educators find purpose,prioritize what matters, and
simplify their practice.
Learn more atplanzeducation.com.
SPEAKER_00 (24:35):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce, or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(24:56):
or with a colleague.
For resources and updates, visitplan zeducation.com and
subscribe to receive weeklyemails.
Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast,
where the focus is on a less ismore approach to education.
Join your hosts, ChristineArnold and Tammy Musiowski,
authors of The MinimalistTeacher and your school
leadership edit, a minimalistapproach to rethinking your
school ecosystem.
Each week, as they explorepractical ways to simplify your
(00:37):
work, sharpen your focus, andamplify what matters most so you
can teach and lead with greaterclarity, purpose, and joy.
SPEAKER_03 (00:46):
On this week's episode of the podcast, we are
joined by Craig Randall talkingto us about trust-based
observations.
His peer-down pointer is allabout how to use our time
effectively.
Craig Randall is the developerand author of Trust-Based
Observations.
Craig has spent the last 30 plusyears in education working as a
(01:06):
counsellor, coach, teacher, andprincipal.
Craig spends the majority of histime training school leaders
Trust-Based Observations, orTBO, building mastery and
transforming the world ofteacher observations to a model
of trust and support thatfosters growth mindsets,
cultures of trust, andcollective teacher efficacy in
action.
In addition, Craig speaks atconferences, is working on a new
(01:30):
book, and hosts the 20 Minutesof Teaching Brilliance, On the
Road with Trust-BasedObservations Podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (01:48):
Christine and I are talking with Craig Randall
today, and we are very excitedto have you here today.
Craig, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (01:56):
Thanks.
I'm super excited to be heretoo.
I like the theme of what youguys are doing.
SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
Thank you.
You do some really interestingwork around a bunch of things,
which we'll get into.
But can you give us a little bitof background to kind of how you
got into your focus aroundteacher observations?
SPEAKER_01 (02:15):
Yeah, I really started out as a school
counselor, did some collegebasketball coaching, went
overseas to work in aninternational school.
The principal there, one of theprincipals, said I think you'd
make a great principal.
And really, when I started myprincipal certification program,
I met the man who became mymentor.
And he in supervision class saidyou need to be in classes every
(02:36):
day, supporting teachers,helping them grow, focusing on
strengths, asking them what theywere doing to help students
learn, what they might dodifferently.
And it was, for me, I always sayit was like the combination of
that hallelujah music and thelight bulb at the same time.
And we practiced observationevery single day in that class.
We'd bring many lessons.
And I never ever talked toanyone that in supervision class
(03:00):
ever practices, which is almostlike going out to teaching
without student teaching.
Not exactly, of course, butthere's there's similarities.
And so I got my first assistantprincipal job in an
international school in Korea,actually.
And I had a boss that was I waslucky enough to tell him I had
this crazy idea.
And he said, great, let's do it.
(03:20):
And I didn't know anything aboutanything really except this.
But teachers loved it rightaway.
They loved, I think, that wedidn't start by telling, we
started by asking questions,which in essence is saying, I
value you and what you think asa professional.
So let's start there.
And they loved for sure that itwas strengths-based.
(03:40):
And I'll tell you, I again, Ididn't know anything, but
people, teachers, new and older,saying, You're the best
principal I ever had.
And I it wasn't me.
It was just this different tweakon observations was so
dramatically different than whatthey had before that they felt
that.
And then really it just evolvedand evolved and evolved.
(04:00):
And somewhere along the way, noteven really knowing I was
involving anything, anelementary principal I worked
with said you need to protectyour work.
And I was like, What?
And then I thought, oh wow.
I and then I presented at aconference, wrote an article,
and then turned it into a book.
SPEAKER_03 (04:18):
I had my mic off there, but when you said get in
classrooms every day, I actuallymade a noise when you said that.
Because I was like, oh my God,yes, that is just such a it's a
simple thing, but so importantjust to be there, be present,
and be with everyone for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (04:34):
And as long as it's from a strength-based
perspective, and because thereality is the way we're doing
it now, and I'm not berating themodels, they're well intended,
but Daniel Marzano, et cetera,when you're rating pedagogy, it
becomes a deficit mindsetthinking.
And so when we come in in thatmindset, teachers freeze and
they panic.
And that's not that's not goodfor culture, that's not good for
(04:55):
anybody.
But when you come in and thenthey know the next day we're
gonna have a talk about all thisgreat stuff I saw, then people
actually, believe it or not,because it sounds so
counterintuitive, think, wow,this is great that you're coming
into my class.
SPEAKER_03 (05:09):
So, yeah, there is so much fear around these
observation cycles, aren'tthere?
So, how do we move from, ifyou're in a culture already that
it is very coming from ajudgmental standpoint, how do
you move it to thisstrength-based, supportive,
building trust sort of dynamicinstead?
SPEAKER_01 (05:28):
Well, ditch what you're doing and do trust-based
observations.
Duh.
It's it's tough becausedepending on what your setting
is, sometimes there's laws orrequirements around that.
And so sometimes the truth is inpublic schools, we have to
finesse.
And many of the public schoolswe do do finesse.
And we're working on changinglaws, but we know that's not
going to be overnight.
But I'll tell you right now,research is pretty clear.
(05:51):
The way we've been doing itisn't improving teaching and
learning.
Two huge studies have said that.
But they also say, and this ismaybe the more important part to
what you're talking about,Christine, is the research says
that it increases teacherdissatisfaction.
It actually causes harm.
It makes them have a lower senseof worth.
And maybe the there's a guynamed Matt O'Leary in the UK.
(06:12):
He interviewed over 4,000teachers.
His research showed that itactually lowers teacher's sense
of self-efficacy the way we'redoing it now.
That's the exact opposite.
If Hattie's collective is ourhighest effect size, which by
the way, he does say trust-basedobservations is collective
teacher efficacy in action, justhave to share that.
(06:33):
And so we have to change whatwe're doing, and we have to make
it strengths-based.
We have to take out the ratingof pedagogy.
We can still evaluate people onthings like professionalism and
how I get along with others, mymindset towards growth, things
like that.
But my teaching moves, that's mypedagogy.
So when I put a score on that,man, and and and the scores
(06:58):
don't mean anything because theydon't improve teaching and
learning, but people get madwhen they get a proficient.
And it's a, it's, it's, it's aridiculous.
Like, I don't even like toacknowledge that we have a
conversation about it becauseit's almost honoring something
we shouldn't be honoring becauseit doesn't improve teaching and
learning.
So stop writing pedagogy.
Start focusing on strengths.
When we rate pedagogy, I'm goingto say this it makes us, it
(07:21):
turns us into deficit mindsetthinkers.
We start to look at what's wrongwith our teachers instead of
what's right.
But trust takes time too.
So we have to take time and notfeel like we have to offer
suggestions right away.
Like we know things like thecompliment sandwich, two stars
and a wish, glows and grows.
Like Adam Grant had a reallynice article saying those don't
(07:41):
work.
And the reason they don't workis because people are smart and
know they know the only reasonyou're saying the nice thing is
so they can do what they reallywant and tell you what to fix.
Without trust, the needle isn'tgonna move.
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
You're bringing up such resonating points right
now, where it's like dinging inmy head.
Because as an external coachthat comes in to work with
teachers, I I love that rolebecause I'm not evaluative.
I get to truly work withteachers.
(08:14):
And but it's really hard totrain them into the strength
space, thinking around whatthey're doing.
And so I find sometimes evenmyself where, you know, they're
sucking me into their kind oflike negative thought training.
I'm like, oh, I gotta pullmyself out of this.
That's not actually what we werejust talking about.
(08:36):
I'm trying to like build you uphere.
Like I just saw some greatthings.
Let's talk about that.
Let's talk about how we canshare those things.
So, what are some things thatyou do?
And it could be like coachingquestions or you know,
activities that to to break thatnegative or desit thinking
thought cycle, because it's soingrained in us.
SPEAKER_01 (09:00):
Well, I'll tell you.
So, our form, one, not readingpedagogy helps a lot, just that.
But our form only has nine areasof pedagogy, and research says
any more than 10, you lose theforce through the trees.
Danielson has 76, Marzano has60.
And again, they'rewell-intended, but then we'd
stop seeing teaching.
Our form is so detailed that itallows us to really pinpoint
(09:22):
specific things, actions thatteachers are taking that are
strengths-based actions.
Like it could just be a specificpraise comment, or or it could
be like a quiet attentionsignal, like little things.
But when I can identifyspecifically what you're doing
and point it out to you whilewe're going over that form, it
it really, really starts tobuild you up.
(09:44):
And when we're training people,it's pretty common, not pretty
common, it's not uncommon tohave leaders on like Monday and
Tuesday, we do week-longtraining, say, okay, but when
are we gonna?
And we're like, but we'replaying the long game.
We've got 20 years now ofresearch saying this isn't
working.
If I have to wait 12 or 14 weeksbefore I offer a suggestion, but
(10:06):
now the trust is there, and thenit'll start to hit them, and
you'll start to see them overthe course of a week go from
looking at what's wrong towhat's right.
And then their shift is it, it'salmost automatic.
But then when I think this too,when you see teachers, at the
end, when we train people, wealways say, Hey, now that you've
(10:27):
had this, what do you think tothe teachers?
And they'll say two main things.
One, oh my gosh, it's so nice tohave my bucket filled.
Like we just don't hear what wedo right.
Because when you're ratings, itjust doesn't come across like
that, even if it's intended thatway.
And so they say that and thetrust starts to happen right
away.
(10:48):
So they even start to thinkabout what I should get better
at without even saying anything.
So I think though, really whatwe're talking about, Brenee
Brown talks about the connectionbetween vulnerability, trust,
and risk taking.
She says for people to takerisks, vulnerability has to be
lowered.
The way that we do that is bybuilding trust.
And she has a great analogy of ajar, and each action that we do
(11:09):
is putting a marble in that jar.
And we have to fill that jarbefore that vulnerability is low
enough.
And so, in our reflectiveconversation, because that's
really where the trust buildingmagic happens, which is
counterintuitive to think aboutit like that, because it's so
been the opposite way.
We do all these little actions,like one, we have the
conversation in the teacher'sroom.
We say, Whether you're 7, 17, or37, getting called to the
(11:32):
principal's office feels likegetting called to the
principal's office.
They feel safer in their space.
We ask permission.
Hey, is now a good time when weget to the room?
I could just come in and say,let's do it.
But that little courtesy buildstrust.
We sit beside you, not acrossfrom you, because people feel
more comfortable that way.
We tell them the goal oftrust-based observations is to
build enough trust so any of uscan observe you, see you trying
(11:54):
something new, have it be atrain wreck, but as opposed to a
traditional observation whereyou'd be freaking out, you're
not worried because you know thenext day I'm gonna say, Tammy, I
love it that you were tryingsomething new.
High five, fist bumper,whatever.
We say, because when we createthose conditions, what are you
gonna do?
Keep trying something new.
And we it just keeps going onand on.
There's all these very specificactions that build trust.
(12:16):
And then when you see yourteachers start to flip like
that, all of a sudden you fliptoo.
SPEAKER_03 (12:23):
Yeah, that's very cool.
I like that.
All those different littlepuzzle pieces almost that come
together to to they seem likenothing, but they're cumulative
and they build up.
SPEAKER_01 (12:33):
And when you redo it repeatedly and you're not
offering suggestions right away,we know this as teachers.
We all get into it because wewant to make a difference in the
lives of young people.
We know there's a percentagethat's not small that kind of
lose their way and become moreset in their ways along the
along the path for all kinds ofreasons.
Toxic observations is a is agood one.
(12:55):
Sometimes just stuff at home.
What we find is I don't want tosay 100%, but almost every
teacher that's like that, theywill flip and then when it's
time, be really open to oursupported suggestions.
It's it's amazing the power ofjust changing what we're doing.
It's it's almost like behavioralscience, really.
(13:15):
I mean, I didn't think about itlike that when I was doing it,
but it just transformseverything.
SPEAKER_03 (13:22):
So, what would you say if you if you had someone in
a leadership position or acoaching position or so on who
who's like, I just don't havetime.
I really don't have time to goin there all the time and then
have the conversations.
Like, do you have a a shortversion or a quick tip that
people could do if they'rereally feeling strapped for
(13:42):
time?
SPEAKER_01 (13:44):
I'm gonna have us think about our time
differently.
And so what I'm gonna say isthis is so if we have to do
maybe not a coach, because yourcoach's job should allow you the
time to do that.
But if you're a principal or anassistant principal, fair
enough.
There are things that you haveto do, and we know the urgent
versus the important and allthat.
But if we were to take like atraditional formal observation,
(14:06):
and like I know in ChicagoPublic Schools to do one round
of Danielson with thepre-observation conference, the
write-up I have to do after, theobservation, the write-up I have
to do after, thepost-observation conference is
the write-up I have to do after,that's six hours.
Our cycle is 20 minutes and 20minutes.
20 minute observation, 20minutes.
I can do nine observations inthe exact same amount of time.
(14:27):
But I'm gonna say this too.
If our number one job isimproving teaching and learning,
which is what I believe it is,to prepare students for adult
success, then we have toprioritize time.
Does that mean sometimes we haveto look at our time?
With AI now, I mean, they oughtto be doing most of our email
work, that combined with myoffice manager, right?
I mean, we have to look andmanage that.
But I'm gonna add this piece aswell.
(14:50):
If what has been a drudgerybecause it hasn't been fun to
do, because I don't want to, Idon't want to offer it, I don't
want to tell somebody thatthey're below average when they
want something good, and I don'twant to have to spend all that
time writing up.
But now instead of that, I getto watch my teachers react with
joy.
(15:11):
All of a sudden, I it's easierto find the time too.
But then when I start to seethen I offer that suggestion and
they adopt it, and then youstart to see the growth in their
practice again, it's so mucheasier to find time when you're
seeing success.
SPEAKER_02 (15:29):
Absolutely.
So my question is there'sprobably no magic answer here,
but how do you shift the mindsetwithin school leaders to make
this type of shift?
So this model of observation andthe time use, because I too am
(15:55):
that person where like I don'tneed to be in a classroom, you
know, for a full period.
I love to because I love tointeract with the kids if I'm if
that's part of the situation.
But I really just need 20minutes and then a 20-minute
conversation afterwards that'sreally, really focused, but it's
but that's not the culturenecessarily everywhere.
(16:17):
So how do you shift that?
What's what's your magic saucepotentially?
SPEAKER_01 (16:23):
Look, I think that's hard.
And I don't think there'sthere's a simple answer.
I I think I think if we talkabout about change, and there's
Malcolm Gladwell wrote a bookcalled Tipping Point, and he
talks about change.
And I'm hoping we have a tippingpoint with trust-based
observations, and this is theway teachers love it.
I mean, it's just so muchhappier.
Like the union in Washington, Ijust spoke to a local
(16:44):
representative who wants me nowto get in touch with our
Washington Education Associationlobbyists to start to move it.
So I think that's a good thing.
But the five, there's fivestages towards a tipping point.
The first stage are theinnovators.
And those are the people that'llmaybe see a social media post on
trust-based observations or readthe first three chapters and go,
(17:05):
oh my gosh, I'm I'm I'm reachingout to Craig.
And then the next stage is theearly adopters.
And those are the people thatare almost the same way, but
they're like, I don't know, it'snew.
But then, oh, you did it?
Oh, good, I'm gonna do it too.
And if I'm being totallytransparent right now, that's
where we're at, is just thosetwo stages.
And I think somehow, someway,there's a a tipping point to use
(17:30):
the title of the book, where thenext stage is early majority,
then late majority, and thenlaggards.
I always say I never wantlaggards to do trust-based
observations.
But I think for the earlymajority, I think like, like I
think you just have to haveexposure multiple times and
multiple times and multipletimes, and you start to hear
like we have a school inCalifornia that a district in
(17:52):
California that they just roseseven and a quarter percent in
math and 12 and 3 quarterpercent in ELA.
And then we just have someone,the next person that says, all
right, I'm gonna do it too.
And then at a certain magicalpoint, at least according to
Malcolm Gladwell, then you hitthat next stage where now all of
a sudden it'll be more of a massof doing it.
Like we're on the verge of doingsomething with a county that's
(18:16):
maybe 70,000 students, and and Idon't want to name the name
until we're all the way therewith it.
But we think if we get somethingbig like that, and it's also
working with some universitieswhere there's research involved,
that'll happen too.
But I think like that's thebroad answer.
But if we're going to talk aboutmaybe, I'm not sure that's
(18:36):
helpful really in some ways toour conversation.
Sorry, maybe I went there fornothing.
But what I'll say is if you'reout there and you're a leader
and you're thinking about it,what do you have to lose?
We've got 25 years, a GatesFoundation, Annberg Study,
that's literally say noimprovement.
And then we have all this otherresearch that says causes harm.
(18:59):
I know you don't want that.
I know as a leader, you want toinspire your people, you want to
make them, you want to fostergrowth, you want them to be risk
takers, you want moreimprovement.
And change is hard and change isscary.
And you know what?
Our weekline training at site inyour building, it's full on and
it's exhausting.
(19:21):
But then you see this.
So man, you just jump, take theleap.
Get get past what's holding youback.
And that that's really the mostpractical thing I think I can
say.
SPEAKER_03 (19:34):
Yeah, it's it's hard to argue with that logic, isn't
it?
You know, if you've got happierteachers in the building who are
engaged and then the outcomesfor the kids are better, and
then I'm sure your leadershipfeels better, your parent
community is gonna feel better.
I mean, it just seems likeretention is stronger.
SPEAKER_01 (19:49):
Yeah.
You know, we're in a time ofteacher shortage.
SPEAKER_03 (19:52):
Absolutely.
You seem like someone who is alifelong learner yourself.
So now that you've you've seenthe light with observations and
and where we've been, where wewant to move to, what's your
next frontier?
What do you want to find outmore about?
What are you excited about?
SPEAKER_01 (20:11):
Well, I feel really lucky because I I I have a
mission now.
Like, this is till the day Idie.
Like, if you are gonna I I'vegot friends that are close to
retirement.
And we're like, what do yougolf?
Are you kidding me?
Every Friday I get to havepeople tell me how great I am
because of this thing.
Like, why would I give up thatfor golf?
And so what I'll tell you a fewthings.
(20:32):
That one, every single week whenI'm training a school, someone
I'm training will say somethingthat makes trust-based
observations better and ittweaks every single week.
So I feel so lucky that one,that I'm open-minded to it, but
then all these other people makeit better.
But I'll say one, I've startedwhen this whole thing developed,
(20:52):
I never thought about it asleadership.
I never thought about it asculture of just what I did.
But I've really in the last fewmonths realized really,
trust-based observations isreally about leadership.
So I'm I'm working on a book nowthat's maybe trust-based
leadership, uh, an observationjourney.
And and but I also want tocreate a trust-based coaching
(21:16):
model because it's it's the samething.
And and and it also addressesblind spots because we all have
blind spots, like I just said,because people tell me every
week.
And I think sometimes thetraditional coaching model of
just letting them find it ontheir own doesn't always lead to
the blind spots.
But then the other one thatreally resonates with me is what
about above that, that on thesupervision level?
(21:37):
What about a principal to anassistant principal, a regional
superintendent to a principal, asuperintendent to anybody at the
central office?
Because the same principles haveto apply.
Because right now, central'sputting so much pressure on
principals because of our scoreobsession or whatever, then that
trickles down and the principalsfeel the same tension.
So those are other book ideasthat I'm sort of ruminating and
(22:00):
that people ask about prettyregularly.
SPEAKER_02 (22:02):
So that's awesome.
That's a logical sequence ofevents, it sounds like,
honestly.
We're at the point of our showwhere we ask our listeners for a
pared down pointer.
So it could be something thatyou mentioned already, or it
could be another tip that youhave for our listeners, where
(22:23):
you know, just it's kind of asimple strategy that people can
can walk away with in terms oftrust-based observations or
getting to that point at least.
SPEAKER_01 (22:34):
I mean, I think it does have to do with with time
and and time spent.
And like many models ofobservation right now, like when
I don't see evidence ofsomething, now that's on that
teacher to write up and submitdocumentation for why I actually
do that, even though you didn'tsee that.
(22:55):
Like, if we're gonna beminimalist and use our time
productively, like how can we beasking people for that?
Like, let's stop that.
Let's just trust that they'regonna get there, or I'm gonna
coach you to get there.
And then if if I'm an observer,like being more minimalist, like
what would I rather do?
(23:15):
20 minutes and 20 minutes?
Or would I rather like who likesto write up reports?
Raise your hand.
Yeah, nobody.
So let's stop that.
Let's make our lives simpler andmore joyful.
And if we change what we'redoing to support our teachers,
then that makes our lives morejoyful and their lives more
(23:37):
joyful.
SPEAKER_02 (23:39):
Thank you for bringing up that last point of
the joy of it, because for somereason it seems like if
something is joyful, somethingis wrong.
So we should like do theopposite, make things harder, or
you know, keep doing that harderthing that we don't actually
need to do.
So that simplification tip isyeah, that's gold for us.
(24:03):
Thank you so much for bringingbeing with us today, Craig.
SPEAKER_01 (24:06):
Thank you.
It was a lot of fun.
SPEAKER_03 (24:10):
This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education
Services, supporting educatorswith forward-thinking
professional learning that putsboth student impact and teacher
wellness at the center.
Driven by a vision to teachless, impact more, they help
educators find purpose,prioritize what matters, and
simplify their practice.
Learn more atplanzeducation.com.
SPEAKER_00 (24:35):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce, or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(24:56):
or with a colleague.
For resources and updates, visitplan zeducation.com and
subscribe to receive weeklyemails.
Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
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