November 18, 2025 • 24 mins
Coaching doesn’t fail because we lack strategies; it fails when our calendars, agendas, and relationships pull us in ten directions at once. We sit down with instructional coaching coordinator Lindsay Deacon to get practical about navigating principal friction, protecting energy, and keeping the work simple enough to sustain. From her early leap into coaching and time with Jim Knight and John Hattie to designing programs at scale, Lindsay brings field-tested moves that work in real schools with real constraints.
We explore what to do when a principal blows off meetings or moves faster than information can travel. Lindsay’s approach starts with composure and listening: arrive with a few sharp coaching questions, mirror their immediate priorities, and align support without adding noise. You’ll hear why dropping your agenda, finding human common ground, and “witnessing the good” can flip the tone of a building. We dig into the mantra that changes everything—people are motivated by their goals, not yours—and how that one shift boosts buy-in, clarity, and measurable progress for teachers and students.
Boundaries become a performance tool here. Lindsay shares a simple script: “My heart says yes, but my calendar says no”, that rescues focus during peak seasons and retrains colleagues to respect capacity. We talk about energy resets through offline hobbies like horseback riding and unexpected lessons from the FBI Citizens Academy: open-ended questions, rapid trust, and reading body language translate directly to high-impact coaching. Plus, a sneak peek at her next project, a presenter survival guide packed with solutions for group facilitation’s thorny moments.
If you’re a coach, teacher leader, or admin who wants fewer tasks and better outcomes, this conversation offers clear language, usable frameworks, and renewal for the long haul. Subscribe, share with a colleague who’s juggling too much, and leave a review telling us which strategy you’ll try first.
This episode is sponsored by Next Adventure EduCoaching.
Find our book The Minimalist Teacher and Your School Leadership Edit: A Minimalist Approach to Rethinking Your School's Ecosystem at the links!
Follow on Instagram @PlanZEducation and @minimalist_ed_podcast.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast is a Plan Z Education Services adventure.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:16):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast,
where the focus is on a less ismore approach to education.
Join your hosts, ChristineArnold and Tammy Muziowski,
authors of The MinimalistTeacher and your School
Leadership Edit (00:29):
A Minimalist Approach to Rethinking Your
School Ecosystem.
Each week as they explorepractical ways to simplify your
work, sharpen your focus, andamplify what matters most so you
can teach and lead with greaterclarity, purpose, and joy.
SPEAKER_02 (00:47):
On this week's episode, we're joined by Lindsay
Deakin, who talks to us aboutinstructional coaching.
Her peer-down pointer is a greatreminder that other people are
not motivated by your goals.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00):
Lindsay Deakin is an instructional coaching
coordinator in Las Vegas,Nevada.
Lindsay has worked under Dr.
Jim Knight's leadership on hisinstructional coaching team and
on Professor John Hattie'sVisible Learning Team at Corwin
Press and recently designed,developed, and implemented an
instructional coaching programfor NWEA.
Outside of her professionalwork, Lindsay's greatest
(01:23):
passions are exercising andrereading a Game of Thrones.
She also impersonates flightattendants from time to time.
SPEAKER_03 (01:50):
And so we are excited to talk about some of
the fun things that she doesbecause she has a very
interesting approach tocoaching.
Welcome to the show, Lindsay.
Hi, thanks for having me.
I want to get into right away.
Well, I want to ask you a bunchof things, but we'll start with
the first thing.
Tell us how you got to where youare and how you came up with
(02:10):
some of your ideas around theEduCoach survival guide.
Because that's an interestingapproach to a guide.
SPEAKER_04 (02:17):
Yeah.
I have a pretty strange and likenon-traditional, I guess, story
in that when I was still prettyearly in my career, I was asked
to become an instructional coachby my school district and was
sent out to Lawrence, Kansas togo to gym nights, like the
mothership, the initialinstructional coaching workshop.
(02:38):
And then after a little bit oftime coaching, returned to the
classroom, then went back tocoaching, you know.
But coaching was just, it was sounstable.
And it still is, I guess, inmost places.
But because it just didn't seemlike much of an opportunity
anymore in my immediatedistrict, I just shot Jim Knight
an email like one afternoon thatwas like, hey, I don't know if
(03:00):
you remember me, but like everyall of your work just resonates
with me.
I think about it and I use itevery day.
So if you ever need likesomebody to make your coffee,
you need an assistant, like justknow I'm available.
And he actually responded, like,well, I'm putting together a
team.
And if you would like to apply,let's let's go there.
(03:21):
And so I was added to his teamwith some really incredible,
amazing people like Peter DeWittand Johnny Donahue, who do a lot
with leadership and collectiveefficacy, Kara Vandis.
There were just so manyincredible people at the table.
And so I just kind of then gotlooped into visible learning
with John Hattie's group.
(03:42):
And so just the most incredibleprofessional learning
opportunities while also thenworking full-time in a school
district, either as a teacher, acoach, or leading a coaching
program.
But what I found with a coupleof my teammates was that no
matter how much research and howmuch theory and how much
(04:02):
connection even I had to likeall of the experts, when you
really get down to it in theday-to-day work as a coach, like
it just doesn't go as planned.
And so I was collecting all ofthese strategies and stories
from coaches who were likemaking it work despite some
really crazy scenarios.
And my co-author and I, we hadworked together for years and we
(04:23):
were like, should we write abook?
Do we know how to write a book?
Can we write a book?
And so we just thought, let'sshare people's stories, let's
share these like tried and true,vetted strategies that people on
the ground are using that arestill backed by research.
And that's how we came up withthe EduCode survival guide.
SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
And yeah, that's kind of where we're at.
So I know that these strategiesare going to be varying
depending on the context you'rein and the people that you're
working with.
But do you have some favoriteones that you that you know are
really, really powerful andeffective that you could share
with us?
I'm dying to know.
SPEAKER_04 (04:58):
I mean, they you know what's funny is a lot of
them are contextual, but at thesame time, we were hearing the
same scenarios pop up over andover and over again.
I don't know what my problemwas, but I just seem to
continually work with principalswho had a very different
approach to coaching than me.
So there was always a lot offriction.
So there is a chapter that'sreally devoted to like scenarios
(05:21):
with working with the principal.
And so some of my favorites arelike basically the principal's
blowing you off left and right,doesn't see to see a need to
meet.
And so, how do you kind of abuild a relationship, but then
also like pass on the importantwork that instructional coaching
is having, because we all knowthat like if the principal
(05:42):
doesn't support the coachingprogram, it's gonna be really
ineffective no matter howmotivated the coach is.
Also, I would say there's ascenario that's called coach
lost their cool, which is me,because like sometimes we just
snap and we yell at people,whoops, you know, you gotta like
make amends, make apologies,like you're under a lot of
(06:03):
pressure, especially becauseyou're kind of like the the
advocate for teachers, but thenyou're also the liaison for like
all the instructionalprogramming from the top.
So it's a lot, it's a heavy,it's a heavy load, right?
So those are probably my twofavorite that come up for me.
SPEAKER_03 (06:19):
Can you talk a little bit more about the that
friction?
So, how do you maneuver thatwhen you are set to work with
some teachers and this is thevision, but it's not quite in
line with what the principalthinks or wants.
So, how do you navigate that?
SPEAKER_04 (06:42):
Well, I think over time, at the end of the day, we
have to like remember it's ajob, right?
And it does feel very personaland our identity is really
wrapped up in our roles, whetheryou're a teacher, you're a
coach, you're a leader, and thework we do with students is
really personal.
But the end of the day, like itis business.
And so being a role model andremaining professional and like
(07:04):
keeping calm and composure isalways at the forefront of what
we do.
And so if you're constantlysuper busy and you're saying yes
to everything, then you're justnot really having the ability to
like stay calm and composed.
Just it does that make sense.
And so then on top of that, onceyou you kind of like get get
(07:25):
yourself straight first, thenjust really being a listener in
meetings with principals,because I think what we find
when we talk with school leadersis that they are so busy putting
out fires and answering people'squestions and fielding, you
know, parent concerns, teacherconcerns, student issues all day
long that they're moving at adifferent speed in their mind
(07:49):
and their body.
And so while it is in a like acoach may really want to
communicate a lot of informationto the principal, it's actually
a lot more effective if you comeprepared with just some really
good coaching questions.
Listen to what is going on withthe principal, listen to what
their pressing needs are.
And that is a really significantway to just build a relationship
with anybody, right?
(08:09):
Is be a listener.
And that is true with leaders aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (08:15):
Yeah, I can identify a lot with what you're saying
there about that kind of gettingstuck in the in the middle a
little bit.
I can definitely see thatplaying out in different
contexts for sure.
So knowing that, that youdepending on what's going on in
your particular schoolenvironment, that you might have
that sort of fraught frictionthing going on, how do you,
besides just remaining calm andreminding yourself this is a job
(08:38):
and this is, you know, this isjust my workplace, this is not
me.
How do you keep your energy andyour motivation going to keep
you being present and there andserving everybody in your school
community?
SPEAKER_04 (08:52):
Yeah.
We really love a strategy fromGym Knight that's just be a
witness to the good because itis very easy to get sucked into
negative conversations or justnegative experiences.
But if you are constantly havinggratitude, appreciation, and
just really having a lens thatyou're looking for the good that
(09:13):
is happening in yourenvironment.
And I can tell you, I've workedin some pretty toxic
environments, some of the lowestperforming schools in the states
that I've worked with.
And there's a lot of reallyamazing good work happening that
can get clouded by other things,right?
And I think that that reallyhelps people reframe and shift.
I would also say another amazingstrategy he has is find common
(09:36):
ground, because when we are ableto relate to each other and I
mean find things personally andprofessionally that we agree on,
you know, whether it's like, oh,we both like to cook, we both
like to exercise, or we bothhave the same approach to
coaching, it doesn't reallymatter.
We have to really care about howwe're aligned as humans in the
(09:58):
work that we do.
And I think that that to mealways generates a lot of energy
individually and collectively,because then like I have more
energy to bring to the table,but then we can work together to
be problem solvers andcollaborators as a group.
SPEAKER_03 (10:16):
Yeah, that's so important to just find those
pieces that you can connect tobecause that will spark
motivation and excitement.
What are some things that you dowhen that feels hard, right?
Where you're like kind offeeling like at a stuck point.
Like, how am I going to connectto this person?
(10:38):
Cause we don't see eye to eye oncertain things.
And so, because I've encounteredthat this past school year where
it was a little tricky to findsome common places to see eye to
eye on what we were doing, oryou know, maybe we didn't have
to necessarily see eye to eye,but it was hard to find the
place of like, what's the thething that's going to connect us
(11:00):
to move us forward?
So, what are some strategiesthat you have or things at work?
SPEAKER_04 (11:06):
I don't know about you, but I find that when I
start to have an agenda, like myown personal agenda, that's
where conversations go sidewaysor that's where friction aligns.
And in coaching, it's like, it'snot about my agenda.
It's not about what I want.
Right.
So I think that I have to, Ihave to ask myself in my head
(11:28):
all the time, like in coachingconversations, like, wait, is
this what I want or is this whatthey want?
And I think literally justasking myself that mentally
helps remove some friction.
That being said, I have hadexperiences with people where,
like, if they're truly toxic ordamaging, you don't engage.
(11:48):
It's like you got you, those arenot people you want to spend
time with.
And there's a certain pointwhere the work is going to be
impacted.
I don't know.
What I mean, what do you thinkabout that?
SPEAKER_03 (11:58):
I think that's such a good point when you separate
your agenda from theirs, becauseI can I can definitely pinpoint
a couple of conversations with at a teacher in particular, where
I'm like, oh, maybe I'm maybeI'm pushing too hard, but I'm
also trying, you know, like youalso try to think bigger picture
and the impact of what'shappening right then impacts
(12:22):
kids, right?
So it was hard to kind of getthat point across.
But that yeah, like I did haveto, I did have to like step back
and think about my approach andhow I was becoming maybe I was
like too forceful, but then atthe same time, it's like, but
this is part of my job, right?
(12:43):
Like my job is to help peoplemove forward.
And so I'm like, is it them oris it me?
I'm not sure.
So is that is there a bit oftoxicity in there?
Potentially, yes.
And like, but like I had toengage.
It was part of like, you know,he was on my roster.
(13:03):
And so I had to like step back alittle bit, but I do think
that's an important thing to askourselves is like who's this
for?
What's what's the long term forthis?
And like, how far am I gonna getwith the time that I have?
So yeah, that's super tricky.
(13:23):
How about you, Christine?
Anything come up there?
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
Yeah, it was just it was making me reflect on.
So I'm in curricula more on thecurriculum end of rather than
instructional coaching.
But there's some overlap there,I think.
But there we had some changescoming, and I had thought a lot
and I talked to the team a lotabout let's not go into this
having a pre-arranged agenda foran end product in our minds.
(13:50):
Like, let's make sure that weaccept whatever this looks like
in the end.
We're gonna get there together,we're gonna decide together, but
don't have your own vision thatyou are determined to stick
with.
So we'd done that kind ofthinking and work, but I
realized along the way that Ihad actually got my attachment
to how I wanted it to go.
So even though we talked aboutlike don't get a picture in your
(14:12):
mind of the end product, I'dstill attach myself and had an
agenda about how we were gonnaget there.
And so it just reminded me ofthat of agenda can be different
things, right?
It doesn't necessarily have tobe what we're gonna be doing in
a year's time.
It can also be the methodologyor the pedagogy that you that
you use as well.
(14:32):
So it definitely made me thinkabout that.
SPEAKER_03 (14:35):
This kind of makes me think a bit about things and
times when we need to say no,and is this one of them?
And when are some other pointsin the role where you have
identified like I can't do this,or it's this isn't a me thing.
So can you talk us a little bitthrough on that?
(14:58):
Because that's tough for a lotof people to, you know, put
things on a back burner or sayno, not right now, and that kind
of thing.
SPEAKER_04 (15:06):
Yeah, I definitely am like a recovering survivor of
saying yes to everything all thetime.
That was definitely me.
And it's definitely not meanymore.
And I find that my work is somuch more intentional and
focused now that I've learnedhow to say no.
And I think it's because alsoI've spent a lot of time working
(15:28):
with many different people ineducation and learning what
their strategies for saying noare and staying focused in like
really frantic, freneticenvironments where it can be
hard to like stay focused on theimportant work.
So my favorite phrase, frankly,just like in the moment, when
people ask me to do somethingand I'm like, in my heart, I
(15:49):
know maybe I don't have enoughtime, or it's it's just like not
the most important thing.
I I have no idea where thisphrase came from.
So I didn't create it, but it ismy heart says yes, but my
calendar says no.
And a lot of my coachingclients, like, we practice that,
like, say it with me right now.
And it's even a joke sometimesthat we'll say, like, to each
(16:12):
other, like, my heart says yes,but my calendar says no.
And so it's like a commonlanguage.
And I I even used it yesterdayin real life.
I was going somewhere where Iknew that I was gonna be
pressured to spend a little bitoutside my budget.
So I use the term my heart saysyes, but my bank account says
no.
And they took it.
(16:32):
And I was like, oh, this isgreat, totally transferable.
So I think that's a reallyeffective phrase.
I think also just being likereally aware that most of us are
likely to overcommit andunderdeliver.
And once you admit that toyourself and you really analyze
(16:52):
where you want to spend yourtime, you get more comfortable
saying no.
Like just start saying no.
Like, wish I could, but I can't,right?
Just start saying no.
And then you'll find that lesspeople actually come to you
because when you're the personwho says yes all the time,
they're always they're justgonna assume that you're the
first one to go to.
And I like when I was a newcoach, I was also like
(17:14):
chaperoning dances and going onfield trips and doing all the
things because those are thethings I love about school.
But there are times I've learnedwhere I can do that, and times
where I just need to like pullmyself back and just say no.
SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
That's such a great idea to have a ready-to-go
sentence that you you don't needto feel like you're floundering
in that moment to think of whatto say.
But if you've got somethingready to go, I can imagine that
that would be so useful, sohelpful.
We definitely talk quite a bit,don't we, Tammy, about aligning
what you're using your time forwith your priorities.
SPEAKER_03 (17:51):
Yes.
And that phrase was like reallyhitting me right now because
it's although it's the like aswe're recording this, it's the
end of the school year.
And you know, we're thinkingahead to like who are who's on
our rosters for next year.
And like July is such a crazytime where you get these like
(18:12):
last minute stuff coming in, andyou're like, I want to, but like
I need 47 days in July.
Then, or like, you know, likeit's just not possible to fit
all the work in, even thoughit's great to, you know, have
the people reaching out andasking for the support, but like
(18:34):
realistically, it's just notpossible.
And so I know, Lindsay, you havesome like really fun hobbies to
help balance your professionalself with like your personal
life.
And I mean, I know balance issomewhat of a false thing, but
you do some fun stuff.
Can you like just give us acouple of the unique things that
you do?
Cause maybe this will give somepeople ideas for what they can
(18:55):
do with their time.
SPEAKER_04 (18:57):
I do have some hobbies that I would also say
are a bit time consuming.
Number one, I ride horsesseveral times a week.
And so I love that because A,like I get to be around animals
around horses, but I am alsogoing to have an area where
there's no cell service and Iyou can't be like playing on
your phone when you're on ahorse.
So it is a way to absolutelygive my brain and body a reset
(19:20):
and get outside.
I also am on the board ofdirectors here in Las Vegas for
the FBI Citizens Academy, andthis is my 11th year as part of
the FBI Citizens Academy.
So I volunteer my time basicallybeing like a brand ambassador
for the FBI, and it's alwayslike an adult field trip.
(19:42):
We get to go to like behind thescenes tours of just some really
interesting places.
I ran a 5k at the state prisonone time with the inmates.
You know, there's some just likereally interesting ways to
support your community in adifferent way that are
completely separate fromeducation, but I find that they
(20:03):
they build me up for the jobthat I do on a daily basis.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03 (20:09):
Yeah, for sure.
Sorry, Christine.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (20:12):
That is just that is so cool.
You don't hear that very oftenat all.
Like I was like horse riding,awesome, you're getting active,
you're getting outside, you'rehaving a complete debrief, but I
was not expecting FBI.
So that was a very cool twistfor us, Lindsay.
SPEAKER_04 (20:28):
I I love that I know it sounds kind of crazy, but
there's a lot of crossover fromlike coaching and what I've
learned in FBI, like because Iget to take a lot of classes
through the FBI.
And recently we got to hear areally amazing presentation from
like a lead polyographer, youknow, the person who does the
(20:49):
polygraph tests and does likeyou know, the investigative
questioning when when suspectsare like in the room.
And all I heard was coachingquestions, open-ended questions,
right?
And looking at body language andhow to build trust quickly, you
know, like there was so muchcrossover.
SPEAKER_03 (21:09):
That's so interesting.
So that kind of leads me to onemore question before you can you
give us a paradigm pointer.
You're writing another book, andis so are you using some of
these questioning tactics inyour book?
Oh, that's a good question.
SPEAKER_04 (21:27):
We are writing a presenter survival guide,
essentially, for anyone ineducation who leads group work,
working title, which hopefullywe'll have out by the end of the
summer, the fall, maybe.
But really it's again, it's likea very similar vibe in that
there are all these commondilemmas and thorny situations
that come up when we're leadinggroups.
(21:48):
And so we just went out,collected stories and strategies
from people in the field.
Like, what do you do when youhave to lead a big presentation,
but there's only one bathroom,you know, or there are just so
many, like this the room issmall and cramped, or maybe like
you have imposter syndrome.
There's just a lot of thingsthat we talked with folks about.
(22:10):
Now, in terms of integrating FBIstrategies, I don't know.
Actually, now you're giving mean idea.
I think I might have to.
SPEAKER_01 (22:18):
Oh, I love that.
That's awesome.
So, yes, as as you tummymentioned, we have the peer-down
pointer at the end of theepisode.
So it could be somethingbuilding on what you've already
talked about, but just a nicepeer-down pointer for our
audience members.
SPEAKER_04 (22:32):
I think for me, my pear-down pointer is just that
people aren't motivated by yourgoal goals, they're motivated by
other or by their own goals.
And so when we're talking aboutmotivation or how to keep the
focus, it really just is aboutremaining objective and allowing
people to work through their owngoals and supporting them in
(22:57):
that work.
SPEAKER_03 (22:58):
Thank you.
That is a great reminder for me.
And I know many people will takethat in and say, yes.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for being heretoday, Lindsay.
It was a great conversation.
Thanks so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (23:13):
This episode is sponsored by Next Adventure
EduCoaching.
Expert advice, holistic support.
Whether through book talks,coaching retreats, or
personalized memberships, NextAdventure EduCoaching empowers
instructional coaches with freshideas and practical tools to
grow, collaborate, and lead withconfidence.
Start your next professionallearning adventure at
(23:34):
educoachsurvivalguide.com.
SPEAKER_00 (23:37):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce, or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(23:58):
or with a colleague.
For resources and updates, visitplanzeducation.com and subscribe
to receive weekly emails.
Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast,
where the focus is on a less ismore approach to education.
Join your hosts, ChristineArnold and Tammy Muziowski,
authors of The MinimalistTeacher and your School
Leadership Edit (00:29):
A Minimalist Approach to Rethinking Your
School Ecosystem.
Each week as they explorepractical ways to simplify your
work, sharpen your focus, andamplify what matters most so you
can teach and lead with greaterclarity, purpose, and joy.
SPEAKER_02 (00:47):
On this week's episode, we're joined by Lindsay
Deakin, who talks to us aboutinstructional coaching.
Her peer-down pointer is a greatreminder that other people are
not motivated by your goals.
SPEAKER_01 (01:00):
Lindsay Deakin is an instructional coaching
coordinator in Las Vegas,Nevada.
Lindsay has worked under Dr.
Jim Knight's leadership on hisinstructional coaching team and
on Professor John Hattie'sVisible Learning Team at Corwin
Press and recently designed,developed, and implemented an
instructional coaching programfor NWEA.
Outside of her professionalwork, Lindsay's greatest
(01:23):
passions are exercising andrereading a Game of Thrones.
She also impersonates flightattendants from time to time.
SPEAKER_03 (01:50):
And so we are excited to talk about some of
the fun things that she doesbecause she has a very
interesting approach tocoaching.
Welcome to the show, Lindsay.
Hi, thanks for having me.
I want to get into right away.
Well, I want to ask you a bunchof things, but we'll start with
the first thing.
Tell us how you got to where youare and how you came up with
(02:10):
some of your ideas around theEduCoach survival guide.
Because that's an interestingapproach to a guide.
SPEAKER_04 (02:17):
Yeah.
I have a pretty strange and likenon-traditional, I guess, story
in that when I was still prettyearly in my career, I was asked
to become an instructional coachby my school district and was
sent out to Lawrence, Kansas togo to gym nights, like the
mothership, the initialinstructional coaching workshop.
(02:38):
And then after a little bit oftime coaching, returned to the
classroom, then went back tocoaching, you know.
But coaching was just, it was sounstable.
And it still is, I guess, inmost places.
But because it just didn't seemlike much of an opportunity
anymore in my immediatedistrict, I just shot Jim Knight
an email like one afternoon thatwas like, hey, I don't know if
(03:00):
you remember me, but like everyall of your work just resonates
with me.
I think about it and I use itevery day.
So if you ever need likesomebody to make your coffee,
you need an assistant, like justknow I'm available.
And he actually responded, like,well, I'm putting together a
team.
And if you would like to apply,let's let's go there.
(03:21):
And so I was added to his teamwith some really incredible,
amazing people like Peter DeWittand Johnny Donahue, who do a lot
with leadership and collectiveefficacy, Kara Vandis.
There were just so manyincredible people at the table.
And so I just kind of then gotlooped into visible learning
with John Hattie's group.
(03:42):
And so just the most incredibleprofessional learning
opportunities while also thenworking full-time in a school
district, either as a teacher, acoach, or leading a coaching
program.
But what I found with a coupleof my teammates was that no
matter how much research and howmuch theory and how much
(04:02):
connection even I had to likeall of the experts, when you
really get down to it in theday-to-day work as a coach, like
it just doesn't go as planned.
And so I was collecting all ofthese strategies and stories
from coaches who were likemaking it work despite some
really crazy scenarios.
And my co-author and I, we hadworked together for years and we
(04:23):
were like, should we write abook?
Do we know how to write a book?
Can we write a book?
And so we just thought, let'sshare people's stories, let's
share these like tried and true,vetted strategies that people on
the ground are using that arestill backed by research.
And that's how we came up withthe EduCode survival guide.
SPEAKER_01 (04:42):
And yeah, that's kind of where we're at.
So I know that these strategiesare going to be varying
depending on the context you'rein and the people that you're
working with.
But do you have some favoriteones that you that you know are
really, really powerful andeffective that you could share
with us?
I'm dying to know.
SPEAKER_04 (04:58):
I mean, they you know what's funny is a lot of
them are contextual, but at thesame time, we were hearing the
same scenarios pop up over andover and over again.
I don't know what my problemwas, but I just seem to
continually work with principalswho had a very different
approach to coaching than me.
So there was always a lot offriction.
So there is a chapter that'sreally devoted to like scenarios
(05:21):
with working with the principal.
And so some of my favorites arelike basically the principal's
blowing you off left and right,doesn't see to see a need to
meet.
And so, how do you kind of abuild a relationship, but then
also like pass on the importantwork that instructional coaching
is having, because we all knowthat like if the principal
(05:42):
doesn't support the coachingprogram, it's gonna be really
ineffective no matter howmotivated the coach is.
Also, I would say there's ascenario that's called coach
lost their cool, which is me,because like sometimes we just
snap and we yell at people,whoops, you know, you gotta like
make amends, make apologies,like you're under a lot of
(06:03):
pressure, especially becauseyou're kind of like the the
advocate for teachers, but thenyou're also the liaison for like
all the instructionalprogramming from the top.
So it's a lot, it's a heavy,it's a heavy load, right?
So those are probably my twofavorite that come up for me.
SPEAKER_03 (06:19):
Can you talk a little bit more about the that
friction?
So, how do you maneuver thatwhen you are set to work with
some teachers and this is thevision, but it's not quite in
line with what the principalthinks or wants.
So, how do you navigate that?
SPEAKER_04 (06:42):
Well, I think over time, at the end of the day, we
have to like remember it's ajob, right?
And it does feel very personaland our identity is really
wrapped up in our roles, whetheryou're a teacher, you're a
coach, you're a leader, and thework we do with students is
really personal.
But the end of the day, like itis business.
And so being a role model andremaining professional and like
(07:04):
keeping calm and composure isalways at the forefront of what
we do.
And so if you're constantlysuper busy and you're saying yes
to everything, then you're justnot really having the ability to
like stay calm and composed.
Just it does that make sense.
And so then on top of that, onceyou you kind of like get get
(07:25):
yourself straight first, thenjust really being a listener in
meetings with principals,because I think what we find
when we talk with school leadersis that they are so busy putting
out fires and answering people'squestions and fielding, you
know, parent concerns, teacherconcerns, student issues all day
long that they're moving at adifferent speed in their mind
(07:49):
and their body.
And so while it is in a like acoach may really want to
communicate a lot of informationto the principal, it's actually
a lot more effective if you comeprepared with just some really
good coaching questions.
Listen to what is going on withthe principal, listen to what
their pressing needs are.
And that is a really significantway to just build a relationship
with anybody, right?
(08:09):
Is be a listener.
And that is true with leaders aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (08:15):
Yeah, I can identify a lot with what you're saying
there about that kind of gettingstuck in the in the middle a
little bit.
I can definitely see thatplaying out in different
contexts for sure.
So knowing that, that youdepending on what's going on in
your particular schoolenvironment, that you might have
that sort of fraught frictionthing going on, how do you,
besides just remaining calm andreminding yourself this is a job
(08:38):
and this is, you know, this isjust my workplace, this is not
me.
How do you keep your energy andyour motivation going to keep
you being present and there andserving everybody in your school
community?
SPEAKER_04 (08:52):
Yeah.
We really love a strategy fromGym Knight that's just be a
witness to the good because itis very easy to get sucked into
negative conversations or justnegative experiences.
But if you are constantly havinggratitude, appreciation, and
just really having a lens thatyou're looking for the good that
(09:13):
is happening in yourenvironment.
And I can tell you, I've workedin some pretty toxic
environments, some of the lowestperforming schools in the states
that I've worked with.
And there's a lot of reallyamazing good work happening that
can get clouded by other things,right?
And I think that that reallyhelps people reframe and shift.
I would also say another amazingstrategy he has is find common
(09:36):
ground, because when we are ableto relate to each other and I
mean find things personally andprofessionally that we agree on,
you know, whether it's like, oh,we both like to cook, we both
like to exercise, or we bothhave the same approach to
coaching, it doesn't reallymatter.
We have to really care about howwe're aligned as humans in the
(09:58):
work that we do.
And I think that that to mealways generates a lot of energy
individually and collectively,because then like I have more
energy to bring to the table,but then we can work together to
be problem solvers andcollaborators as a group.
SPEAKER_03 (10:16):
Yeah, that's so important to just find those
pieces that you can connect tobecause that will spark
motivation and excitement.
What are some things that you dowhen that feels hard, right?
Where you're like kind offeeling like at a stuck point.
Like, how am I going to connectto this person?
(10:38):
Cause we don't see eye to eye oncertain things.
And so, because I've encounteredthat this past school year where
it was a little tricky to findsome common places to see eye to
eye on what we were doing, oryou know, maybe we didn't have
to necessarily see eye to eye,but it was hard to find the
place of like, what's the thething that's going to connect us
(11:00):
to move us forward?
So, what are some strategiesthat you have or things at work?
SPEAKER_04 (11:06):
I don't know about you, but I find that when I
start to have an agenda, like myown personal agenda, that's
where conversations go sidewaysor that's where friction aligns.
And in coaching, it's like, it'snot about my agenda.
It's not about what I want.
Right.
So I think that I have to, Ihave to ask myself in my head
(11:28):
all the time, like in coachingconversations, like, wait, is
this what I want or is this whatthey want?
And I think literally justasking myself that mentally
helps remove some friction.
That being said, I have hadexperiences with people where,
like, if they're truly toxic ordamaging, you don't engage.
(11:48):
It's like you got you, those arenot people you want to spend
time with.
And there's a certain pointwhere the work is going to be
impacted.
I don't know.
What I mean, what do you thinkabout that?
SPEAKER_03 (11:58):
I think that's such a good point when you separate
your agenda from theirs, becauseI can I can definitely pinpoint
a couple of conversations with at a teacher in particular, where
I'm like, oh, maybe I'm maybeI'm pushing too hard, but I'm
also trying, you know, like youalso try to think bigger picture
and the impact of what'shappening right then impacts
(12:22):
kids, right?
So it was hard to kind of getthat point across.
But that yeah, like I did haveto, I did have to like step back
and think about my approach andhow I was becoming maybe I was
like too forceful, but then atthe same time, it's like, but
this is part of my job, right?
(12:43):
Like my job is to help peoplemove forward.
And so I'm like, is it them oris it me?
I'm not sure.
So is that is there a bit oftoxicity in there?
Potentially, yes.
And like, but like I had toengage.
It was part of like, you know,he was on my roster.
(13:03):
And so I had to like step back alittle bit, but I do think
that's an important thing to askourselves is like who's this
for?
What's what's the long term forthis?
And like, how far am I gonna getwith the time that I have?
So yeah, that's super tricky.
(13:23):
How about you, Christine?
Anything come up there?
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
Yeah, it was just it was making me reflect on.
So I'm in curricula more on thecurriculum end of rather than
instructional coaching.
But there's some overlap there,I think.
But there we had some changescoming, and I had thought a lot
and I talked to the team a lotabout let's not go into this
having a pre-arranged agenda foran end product in our minds.
(13:50):
Like, let's make sure that weaccept whatever this looks like
in the end.
We're gonna get there together,we're gonna decide together, but
don't have your own vision thatyou are determined to stick
with.
So we'd done that kind ofthinking and work, but I
realized along the way that Ihad actually got my attachment
to how I wanted it to go.
So even though we talked aboutlike don't get a picture in your
(14:12):
mind of the end product, I'dstill attach myself and had an
agenda about how we were gonnaget there.
And so it just reminded me ofthat of agenda can be different
things, right?
It doesn't necessarily have tobe what we're gonna be doing in
a year's time.
It can also be the methodologyor the pedagogy that you that
you use as well.
(14:32):
So it definitely made me thinkabout that.
SPEAKER_03 (14:35):
This kind of makes me think a bit about things and
times when we need to say no,and is this one of them?
And when are some other pointsin the role where you have
identified like I can't do this,or it's this isn't a me thing.
So can you talk us a little bitthrough on that?
(14:58):
Because that's tough for a lotof people to, you know, put
things on a back burner or sayno, not right now, and that kind
of thing.
SPEAKER_04 (15:06):
Yeah, I definitely am like a recovering survivor of
saying yes to everything all thetime.
That was definitely me.
And it's definitely not meanymore.
And I find that my work is somuch more intentional and
focused now that I've learnedhow to say no.
And I think it's because alsoI've spent a lot of time working
(15:28):
with many different people ineducation and learning what
their strategies for saying noare and staying focused in like
really frantic, freneticenvironments where it can be
hard to like stay focused on theimportant work.
So my favorite phrase, frankly,just like in the moment, when
people ask me to do somethingand I'm like, in my heart, I
(15:49):
know maybe I don't have enoughtime, or it's it's just like not
the most important thing.
I I have no idea where thisphrase came from.
So I didn't create it, but it ismy heart says yes, but my
calendar says no.
And a lot of my coachingclients, like, we practice that,
like, say it with me right now.
And it's even a joke sometimesthat we'll say, like, to each
(16:12):
other, like, my heart says yes,but my calendar says no.
And so it's like a commonlanguage.
And I I even used it yesterdayin real life.
I was going somewhere where Iknew that I was gonna be
pressured to spend a little bitoutside my budget.
So I use the term my heart saysyes, but my bank account says
no.
And they took it.
(16:32):
And I was like, oh, this isgreat, totally transferable.
So I think that's a reallyeffective phrase.
I think also just being likereally aware that most of us are
likely to overcommit andunderdeliver.
And once you admit that toyourself and you really analyze
(16:52):
where you want to spend yourtime, you get more comfortable
saying no.
Like just start saying no.
Like, wish I could, but I can't,right?
Just start saying no.
And then you'll find that lesspeople actually come to you
because when you're the personwho says yes all the time,
they're always they're justgonna assume that you're the
first one to go to.
And I like when I was a newcoach, I was also like
(17:14):
chaperoning dances and going onfield trips and doing all the
things because those are thethings I love about school.
But there are times I've learnedwhere I can do that, and times
where I just need to like pullmyself back and just say no.
SPEAKER_01 (17:30):
That's such a great idea to have a ready-to-go
sentence that you you don't needto feel like you're floundering
in that moment to think of whatto say.
But if you've got somethingready to go, I can imagine that
that would be so useful, sohelpful.
We definitely talk quite a bit,don't we, Tammy, about aligning
what you're using your time forwith your priorities.
SPEAKER_03 (17:51):
Yes.
And that phrase was like reallyhitting me right now because
it's although it's the like aswe're recording this, it's the
end of the school year.
And you know, we're thinkingahead to like who are who's on
our rosters for next year.
And like July is such a crazytime where you get these like
(18:12):
last minute stuff coming in, andyou're like, I want to, but like
I need 47 days in July.
Then, or like, you know, likeit's just not possible to fit
all the work in, even thoughit's great to, you know, have
the people reaching out andasking for the support, but like
(18:34):
realistically, it's just notpossible.
And so I know, Lindsay, you havesome like really fun hobbies to
help balance your professionalself with like your personal
life.
And I mean, I know balance issomewhat of a false thing, but
you do some fun stuff.
Can you like just give us acouple of the unique things that
you do?
Cause maybe this will give somepeople ideas for what they can
(18:55):
do with their time.
SPEAKER_04 (18:57):
I do have some hobbies that I would also say
are a bit time consuming.
Number one, I ride horsesseveral times a week.
And so I love that because A,like I get to be around animals
around horses, but I am alsogoing to have an area where
there's no cell service and Iyou can't be like playing on
your phone when you're on ahorse.
So it is a way to absolutelygive my brain and body a reset
(19:20):
and get outside.
I also am on the board ofdirectors here in Las Vegas for
the FBI Citizens Academy, andthis is my 11th year as part of
the FBI Citizens Academy.
So I volunteer my time basicallybeing like a brand ambassador
for the FBI, and it's alwayslike an adult field trip.
(19:42):
We get to go to like behind thescenes tours of just some really
interesting places.
I ran a 5k at the state prisonone time with the inmates.
You know, there's some just likereally interesting ways to
support your community in adifferent way that are
completely separate fromeducation, but I find that they
(20:03):
they build me up for the jobthat I do on a daily basis.
Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_03 (20:09):
Yeah, for sure.
Sorry, Christine.
Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (20:12):
That is just that is so cool.
You don't hear that very oftenat all.
Like I was like horse riding,awesome, you're getting active,
you're getting outside, you'rehaving a complete debrief, but I
was not expecting FBI.
So that was a very cool twistfor us, Lindsay.
SPEAKER_04 (20:28):
I I love that I know it sounds kind of crazy, but
there's a lot of crossover fromlike coaching and what I've
learned in FBI, like because Iget to take a lot of classes
through the FBI.
And recently we got to hear areally amazing presentation from
like a lead polyographer, youknow, the person who does the
(20:49):
polygraph tests and does likeyou know, the investigative
questioning when when suspectsare like in the room.
And all I heard was coachingquestions, open-ended questions,
right?
And looking at body language andhow to build trust quickly, you
know, like there was so muchcrossover.
SPEAKER_03 (21:09):
That's so interesting.
So that kind of leads me to onemore question before you can you
give us a paradigm pointer.
You're writing another book, andis so are you using some of
these questioning tactics inyour book?
Oh, that's a good question.
SPEAKER_04 (21:27):
We are writing a presenter survival guide,
essentially, for anyone ineducation who leads group work,
working title, which hopefullywe'll have out by the end of the
summer, the fall, maybe.
But really it's again, it's likea very similar vibe in that
there are all these commondilemmas and thorny situations
that come up when we're leadinggroups.
(21:48):
And so we just went out,collected stories and strategies
from people in the field.
Like, what do you do when youhave to lead a big presentation,
but there's only one bathroom,you know, or there are just so
many, like this the room issmall and cramped, or maybe like
you have imposter syndrome.
There's just a lot of thingsthat we talked with folks about.
(22:10):
Now, in terms of integrating FBIstrategies, I don't know.
Actually, now you're giving mean idea.
I think I might have to.
SPEAKER_01 (22:18):
Oh, I love that.
That's awesome.
So, yes, as as you tummymentioned, we have the peer-down
pointer at the end of theepisode.
So it could be somethingbuilding on what you've already
talked about, but just a nicepeer-down pointer for our
audience members.
SPEAKER_04 (22:32):
I think for me, my pear-down pointer is just that
people aren't motivated by yourgoal goals, they're motivated by
other or by their own goals.
And so when we're talking aboutmotivation or how to keep the
focus, it really just is aboutremaining objective and allowing
people to work through their owngoals and supporting them in
(22:57):
that work.
SPEAKER_03 (22:58):
Thank you.
That is a great reminder for me.
And I know many people will takethat in and say, yes.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for being heretoday, Lindsay.
It was a great conversation.
Thanks so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01 (23:13):
This episode is sponsored by Next Adventure
EduCoaching.
Expert advice, holistic support.
Whether through book talks,coaching retreats, or
personalized memberships, NextAdventure EduCoaching empowers
instructional coaches with freshideas and practical tools to
grow, collaborate, and lead withconfidence.
Start your next professionallearning adventure at
(23:34):
educoachsurvivalguide.com.
SPEAKER_00 (23:37):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce, or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(23:58):
or with a colleague.
For resources and updates, visitplanzeducation.com and subscribe
to receive weekly emails.
Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
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