November 25, 2025 • 26 mins
Rural education isn’t about scarcity. It’s about clarity. We sit down with Dr. Melissa Sadorf, Executive Director of the National Rural Education Association, professor, longtime superintendent, and host of the Rural Scoop—to unpack how minimalist leadership helps protect the core mission of teaching and learning in communities that already operate lean. Instead of doing more with less, she argues for stripping away noise, centering relationships, and using place-based learning to make school deeply personal and relevant.
Across a 32-year career in Arizona’s rural schools, Dr. Sadorf has seen the power of an asset-based lens: strong family ties, flat decision-making, and the ability to move quickly without bureaucratic drag. She shares concrete ways to fight initiative fatigue by choosing a few high-impact practices, aligning PD and budgets to those priorities, and communicating the why behind required tasks. Her mantra, "connection over compliance", keeps trust high and energy focused where it counts.
We also dive into distributive leadership that taps the strengths of the whole staff. From data analysis to technology workflows to grant planning, leaders can “coach up” people across roles and build a healthier pipeline while spreading workload sustainably. For educators curious about moving from urban classrooms to rural communities, Melissa offers pragmatic guidance: learn the context, honor local culture, and build relationships before making big moves. The throughline is “intentional simplicity”: clear boundaries, protected time for learning, and a steadfast focus on what serves students.
If you value practical strategies and a hopeful, grounded view of rural schools, this conversation will sharpen your focus and renew your purpose. Subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review to help more educators find these ideas. What’s one thing you’ll cut this week to protect the core?
Find our book The Minimalist Teacher and Your School Leadership Edit: A Minimalist Approach to Rethinking Your School's Ecosystem at the links!
Follow on Instagram @PlanZEducation and @minimalist_ed_podcast.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast is a Plan Z Education Services adventure.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast,
where the focus is on a less ismore approach to education.
Join your hosts, ChristineArnold and Tammy Musiowski,
authors of The MinimalistTeacher and your School
Leadership Edit, a minimalistapproach to rethinking your
school ecosystem.
Each week as they explorepractical ways to simplify your
(00:37):
work, sharpen your focus, andamplify what matters most so you
can teach and lead with greaterclarity, purpose, and joy.
SPEAKER_02 (00:46):
On this week's episode, we're joined by Dr.
Melissa Sadoff.
She has a great discussion withus all about rural schools, and
her peer down pointer is to makesure that you protect the core
mission of teaching andlearning.
Dr.
Melissa Sadoff is the ExecutiveDirector of the Arizona Rural
Schools Association and anassistant teaching professor in
(01:09):
the Educational LeadershipDepartment at Northern Arizona
University.
With over 30 years of experiencein educational leadership, she's
the author of The ResilientRural Leader: Rising to the
Challenges of Rural Education.
A passionate advocate for ruraleducation, Dr.
Sadorf works as a consultantthrough Vela Educational
Consultants, offering leadershipdevelopment and professional
(01:30):
learning.
She's also the host of the RuralScoop Podcast and a nationally
recognized voice in ruraleducational leadership.
SPEAKER_03 (01:40):
Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
of the Minimalist EducatorPodcast.
This week, Christine and I aretalking with a special guest,
Dr.
Melissa Saydorf, who is someonewho has spent a long time in her
career working in ruraleducation and supporting
educators and students there.
(02:01):
So we're really interested totalk to her this week and get
her insights into that work.
Welcome to the show, Melissa.
SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
Thank you so much.
It's fantastic to be here withyou both.
SPEAKER_03 (02:13):
We are, like I said, we're excited to have you here.
We haven't had someone talkabout the ins and outs of rural
education.
And so we are interested tolearn a lot about this.
How did you, I don't want to sayend up on that path in your
career, but what led you there?
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
That's fine.
Well, I never left the rural,the rural landscape of
education.
I grew up as a rural student inArizona and went into teaching
in a rural school in the townthat I grew up in and was there
until I left in 2012, went fromthe classroom to the principal
(02:55):
seat.
And then in 2012, I took asuperintendent's position of
another district in Arizona andwas there for the last 12 years
of my career.
So rounded out 32 years, all ofit spent in rural education here
in Arizona.
So I never left.
SPEAKER_03 (03:12):
That's really cool to sorry, Christine, I know you
were going to say something, butit is really cool to hear about
people who have kind of stayedwith where they grew up or have
gone into a career that'ssimilar to what they grew up up
in.
So as someone who spent theirschool years in as a as a
(03:35):
learner, as a student, who spenttheir time in rural education
and then supports and continuesto support educators in the same
type of realm.
What are some of the things thatthat have been consistent across
your kind of lifetime in ruralArizona in education?
SPEAKER_00 (03:58):
So I'm gonna I'm gonna frame this in terms of
minimalism.
I I think that I would be remissif I didn't.
Yes, thank you.
So, and and you know, minimalismisn't about doing less for
students.
I think is, and especially inrural communities where we're
pretty thin on resources andaccess anyway.
(04:18):
Minimalism in a rural educationsetting really is about removing
the excess from the distractionsfrom what matters most.
And that is the relationshipsthat we cultivate in our
communities with ourstakeholders.
It's about the learning thathappens in and out of the
classrooms on a regular dailybasis.
(04:38):
And it's about the communitythat really is who we service in
that rural area as the heartbeatof the community.
You often hear people talk aboutwhat the rural school is is the
hub.
And that's very true.
So so when we are in a ruralarea, and obviously I'm speaking
in broad terms because rurallooks different from place to
(05:00):
place.
It's not a monolith.
So you have to consider context.
But in rural schools, we wealready operate lean.
I mean, we have we have smallstaff and we have the multi-role
responsibility.
So I think minimalism reallyreframes this circumstance that
we typically find ourselves inas an asset because it really
(05:22):
sharpens our focus rather thanbeing a deficit.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
I find this topic really fascinating to jump into
because you know, coming fromAustralia and Tammy's originally
from Canada as well.
We we are from these countriesthat have huge rural areas.
And I personally have neverworked or lived in one of those
areas, but I'm familiar withsome of the some of the things
that come along with thatlifestyle for the for the
(05:48):
community.
So, what do you think are someof the assumptions or maybe even
misconceptions that come alongwith with working in one of
these schools in a rural area?
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
Well, I think I'll start with the asset-based
versus a deficit-based approachto what we do in rural areas.
And that is something,unfortunately, that is not easy
to overcome.
We do a lot of advocacy workwith the National Rural
Education Association trying toframe rural education as very,
(06:24):
very resource-heavy in terms ofwhat we bring in in place.
Where we are has a lot to dowith what we're able to tap into
and then involve our students interms of their learning, you
know, engaging curriculum tocommunity and to the local
geography and to the culture ofthe place that you are in.
(06:45):
And so that's something I thinkthat is often missed is that,
you know, we really do bring alot to the table in a rural area
that really has the capacity tojust be a more enriching
experience for the students thatare in our care.
SPEAKER_03 (06:58):
That connection to place-based education is really
something that we see a lot herein the Big Island, especially
because it is very rural outhere.
And I think people don'tnecessarily think of island,
like particularly Hawaii, asrural, but the Big Island has a
lot of rural area.
(07:19):
And so knowing that the, andespecially being in the middle
of the Pacific, right?
We have a different challenge aswell.
But in terms of like that's sucha great asset to use for
curriculum connections andteaching.
What do you notice for in yourexperience when working with
(07:42):
teachers or even as a principalor even as a superintendent?
I guess just depending on kindof how you're working with this.
But how what is the feeling forteachers, or what has been the
feeling for teachers, knowingthat there's there might be
limited resources and they haveto take on, you know, more hats
(08:05):
potentially than a teacher wouldin a heavily staffed school?
Because that feels like a reallyheavy responsibility.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
Sure.
Well, I I I'm gonna I'm gonnastart by answering your question
around a place like Hawaii,where you know, you you talk
about that connection to place.
And I think, and and I it's partof the answer to your question,
but preserving that ruralidentity, I think is really
important.
And and when you talk aboutminimalism as far as clarity of
(08:34):
purpose, for for rural schools,that often means holding really
tight onto that cultural andhistorical and community
tradition that is really evidentin all of the rural communities
that that I've been in, and I'msure you both too, even in
different countries, that thatit's not about cutting away
identity when you don't have alot of assets.
(08:54):
It really is about centering it.
And there are programs that makerural schools really that that
hub of community life.
But when you talk about limitedresources and and having that
multiple hats that they allwear, one of the things that
comes to mind for me isminimalism in leadership.
(09:16):
And this was me as asuperintendent, and it was also
me as a as a as a principal.
It means protecting teachersfrom initiative fatigue and
getting really focused on whatwe're doing and clarifying
what's the professionaldevelopment that is truly needed
and how are we mentoring to makesure that those few high impact
(09:37):
practices that we're focusing onare really where we're spending
our time.
It's where we're spending ourbudget, it's where we're
spending our thought rather thanoverwhelming the staff with
every new thing that comes downthe pike.
And so, you know, that wascertainly one of the places that
I really paid close attention tobecause we know that burnout is,
(09:59):
I mean, we we started talkingabout it five years ago with
COVID.
And it certainly is notsomething that has gone away
just because we're not in thesame place we were five years
ago with with a pandemic.
But we want to make sure thatwe're protecting our staff.
We have a recruitment andretention problem right now, not
(10:19):
just in in rural communities,but in urban and suburban
communities.
And that pipeline is really,really running very thin.
And it also has impactedleadership.
And so we're seeing thatpipeline into leadership also
being turned off.
And so, you know, we've got toprotect the people that are
there now.
(10:40):
We also understand in ruralcommunities that we don't have a
lot of applicants for thepositions that are open.
And so we have to coach uprather than push out.
And it's it's really gettingfocused on what's important,
what do they need to know, andhow am I going to make sure that
I get them there.
SPEAKER_02 (10:59):
Yeah, that's something I feel like I've been
having conversations around alot about recently is that idea
of retention rather than justgetting new teachers in.
I feel like that's kind ofinvesting focus in the wrong
areas.
Well, it's still important, youknow, you do have to look after
the people that are already inthe profession, you know?
(11:19):
Right.
It's really interesting to hearabout the initiative fatigue.
I don't know, I guess maybenaively, idealistically, I would
have thought life at a ruralschool might be simpler and that
sort of initiative fatigue mightnot hit you as hard, but you
still find that that is a realproblem for you.
SPEAKER_00 (11:38):
Sure.
I mean, we have to do the samethings that are being done in
urban and suburban schools, justwith fewer people and fewer
programs and fewer access tocurricular resources or
community resources.
And so with that kind ofleanness, you have to do with
what you have.
I call it a bailing wire andduct tape approach to getting
(12:01):
schooling done because you dowith what you have, which means
the human capital around you arewho you tap into.
And it's very easy to havepeople take on more than than is
probably wise for them in aneffort to get things done.
We we want to make sure thatwe're not encouraging too much
(12:23):
involvement.
We want to spread, spread thethe wealth.
That distributive leadershipthat we talk about as leaders is
something that really is notjust a nice to have, but it's a
need to do in a rural community.
SPEAKER_03 (12:38):
Can you talk a little bit more about that, that
specifically distributiveleadership?
Because I I think it's somethingthat people hear about, but they
don't necessarily know how to doit or how to make it effective.
And so, like Christine and I,when we taught together, we were
part of that kind of model,which was really, you know, you
(13:01):
you do feel a sense of like,okay, we're all taking on
different pieces.
Yes, that adds a little bitmore, but we're doing this
collectively and together.
And so can you talk about whatthat looks like or looked like
in your role?
SPEAKER_00 (13:15):
Yeah, sure.
Well, I'm gonna start withmaking sure that things are
streamlined as far asprofessional work because as a
leader, you are theinstructional leader in the
building, but you are also themanager.
And so that that's a fine line.
So for teachers, that means thatI'm making sure that I'm not I'm
not asking them to dounnecessary paperwork or
(13:36):
redundant assessments.
I want to make sure that I'mgiving back time for instruction
and student feedback and thosekinds of things that are
important for teaching andlearning to happen in that in
the classroom.
And and, you know, focusing onrather than every metric, I'm
gonna be focusing on just a fewkey indicators like attendance
and graduation readiness andwhere are they going
(13:57):
post-secondary as far as theirpathway?
You know, is it is it career, isit the military, is it uh
community college?
What do those things look like?
But then in addition to that,when I'm when I've removed the
the chafe from from the weeds,so to speak, as far as what
really needs to get done,distributive leadership is
(14:20):
making sure that I am investingin the leadership capacity and
development of the of the peopleon my staff.
And it wasn't always teachers inthe classroom.
It could have been my classifiedstaff as well.
And so I can't, as a ruralleader, do everything for
everyone all the time.
I I would burn myself out andthen I'm no good to anybody.
(14:42):
So it was what are the giftsthat those teachers or those
classified staff bring, whetherit's around they are comfortable
with technology or they're verygood at disaggregating data, or
they're really good at strategicplanning and uh coming up with
goals for grants, whatever thosethings were, it was giving them
(15:03):
the space and the opportunity totake that on as a role that then
they could lead forward with,knowing that their first
responsibility was as teacher inthe classroom or para pro in the
classroom or secretary in thefront office, but also providing
them the opportunity to growtheir leadership capacity.
(15:26):
And in doing so, not only was Igiving them the opportunity to
grow, I was also getting thingsdone in a way that it wasn't all
me that was doing it.
It wasn't a small core group ofpeople that was doing it.
Everyone in the system had theopportunity to take on a larger
role and to provide leadershipto the the whole school, the
(15:51):
whole district.
And so I you just as a roleleader, it is like I said, it
really is the way that you aregoing to lead best, is if you're
pulling other people into thoseleadership roles with you.
SPEAKER_02 (16:07):
Yeah, fair enough.
So it sounds like a really keything that you're speaking to
here is that idea of like havinga really rich knowledge base
about the people that you've gotaround you, about the place that
you're in, the identity of thecommunity.
Do you think that that that'sreally at the heart of getting
to the purposeful leadership?
SPEAKER_00 (16:30):
Uh it all is predicated on relationships and
knowing your staff, allowingthem to know you, being
vulnerable.
It's people over programs andmaking sure that not only do you
know everyone by name, you knowyour students by name, it just
you strip away the clutter, youknow, minimal minimalism,
stripping away the clutter tomake sure that
(16:52):
relationship-driven leadershipand teaching is really where
we're going to land.
And that's for that's foreveryone in the system.
That's for all of ourstakeholders, where, you know,
it's it's it's an issue ofconnection over compliance and
making sure that, you know, weknow that these things need to
get done, but that relationshipis what starts everything.
(17:13):
It's the foundation ofeverything.
SPEAKER_03 (17:17):
You just mentioned connection over compliance,
which is something I I think isa challenge for a lot of leaders
because you do have to just docertain things that can feel
like clutter, right?
So, how did you manage that whenyou knew that we just have to do
(17:40):
this for compliance purpose, butthen relay that to the people
that you were working with aslike, I know this isn't our
favorite thing to do, but wegotta do it.
So, how did you navigate that?
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
Yeah, I think that people when people understand
the why behind something, thewhy behind the ask, it they're
more likely to, okay, I I I getit.
We've we've got to do thisreport, and it has to be done by
the end of this month.
And so knowing that it's it'ssomething that whether I do it
(18:15):
or you do it or somebody elsedoes it, it still has to get
done and the consequences for itnot happening.
So being transparent and beingcommunicative about the why
behind the task itself.
SPEAKER_02 (18:30):
If you had a magic wand and you could magic up one
thing that would make a hugedifference for rural schools and
rural educators, what what wouldthat one magical thing be that
they could do?
SPEAKER_00 (18:43):
That's a really good question, Christine.
SPEAKER_02 (18:50):
Like something that would really make a difference
to people and make life a bitbetter.
SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
You know, I I I I honestly think that I I wish
that people would understandthat rural education is not
about scarcity, it's aboutclarity.
It it I I wish that, you know,people would understand that if
we strip away what does notserve students and we look at
(19:21):
what we have around us thathelps to provide really a
foundation for connection withplace, with people, with
community and culture, that'sthe heart of rural education.
And that intentional simplicityis where education is deeply
personal and rooted incommunity.
(19:43):
I I wish that people wouldunderstand how beautiful that is
and what an opportunity it isboth to teach and lead in that
kind of environment and to learnas a student.
SPEAKER_03 (19:55):
You just said two words that really caught me:
intentional simplicity.
And if that that if we couldcapture that, if we could like
just wave the wand everywhereand have everyone participate in
that intentionality,particularly like let's learn
(20:15):
something from rural schools andbring that into those large
urban centers, right?
Because things are socomplicated and bureaucratic in
large areas that it's so easy tolose sight of what the purpose
is.
And Christine and I talk a lotabout purpose.
Like, what is the point of doingthis?
(20:36):
And if it's not going to servestudents, why are we doing it?
Are we doing it?
Yeah.
And so I think there's a lot ofstrong lessons to be learned
from the work that you've doneand that other leaders are doing
in rural education.
What has been what what do youthink would be your favorite
(20:58):
part of working in ruralcommunities?
SPEAKER_00 (21:01):
Oh, it's definitely about the community itself and
the engagement that you're ableto uh really lean into.
It's about families that knoweach other and know who you are
and you know them.
It's the capacity that you haveto move quickly.
There's not a lot of red tape inrural education because you have
(21:22):
pretty flat organizationalcharts.
And so there's not a lot of uhof layers between decision and
and implementation.
And so things can turn prettyquickly.
And it's and it's knowing thatyou are ensuring the
preservation of an identity of aplace and being a part of
(21:46):
contributing to that in a veryreal, very important way.
SPEAKER_02 (21:51):
So if we had some listeners that were big city
teachers who'd spent their wholecareer in, you know, urban
environments, and they're nowreally motivated and they love
the idea of moving into a ruralcommunity and and joining the
schools there, what sort ofadvice would you have for them
as they move into that sort ofpart of their career?
SPEAKER_00 (22:14):
So I think that what's important is that people
who are considering moving intoa rural area take the time to
understand rurality.
And so it's not the same fromplace to place.
Like I said, rural Arizona isnot the same thing as rural
Maine or rural Hawaii or ruralMontana.
(22:36):
There's there's context to takeinto consideration.
Um, and so getting a chance toreally know the place that
you're considering going to, whoare the people that are there?
What are the traditions thatreally are important to them?
What's the geography like?
What are the resources that areavailable to you?
(22:56):
And uh spending some time reallydoing some research on what does
it mean to be a rural educatorin that particular place would
be really important.
I a lot of educator prepprograms now and leadership prep
programs following that arefocusing at least a course, if
(23:18):
not some experiences within ateacher internship or something
like that, on being in a ruralarea and doing your hours or
your practicums in a ruralbecause it is different.
And not having an understandingbefore you go into that kind of
environment, you you might getlost.
(23:41):
And it's really important tohave an understanding of what
you're stepping into before youget there.
So I would I would hope thatpeople that are considering that
would make sure that they takethat extra step and go spend
some time in a rural area sothat you know what it means to
be in a rural area.
SPEAKER_03 (23:58):
Absolutely.
Always understand the place thatyou're heading because you can
have some major culture shock ina positive or negative way for
sure.
You just have to frame it foryourself.
That's um, Melissa, we haveenjoyed talking to you.
And as with many of our guests,we can just keep talking and
talking, but we always like tokeep our episodes around 30
(24:21):
minutes.
It's a nice commute chat thatpeople can listen to.
At the end of our shows, we askour guests for a paradown
pointer.
And I feel like you've given alot of those throughout the
show.
Is there something that youwould, you know, if you're
giving one piece of advice, thiswould be your paradown pointer
that you've maybe you've alreadymentioned it, or maybe it's
something else?
SPEAKER_00 (24:41):
I I guess I would say minimalism in rural
education is about settingboundaries and choosing not to
say yes to everything external,all of the demands that are on
your plate or time, and insteadprotecting the core mission of
teaching and learning, whetherit's in a rural area or anywhere
else.
Stay true to what matters most.
SPEAKER_03 (25:05):
Thank you so much, Melissa.
That's a perfect way to end theshow.
Thank you again for being withus this week.
SPEAKER_00 (25:11):
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (25:12):
It was a pleasure.
This episode is sponsored byPlan Z Education Services,
supporting educators withforward-thinking professional
learning that puts both studentimpact and teacher wellness at
the center.
Driven by a vision to teachless, impact more, they help
educators find purpose,prioritize what matters, and
(25:33):
simplify their practice.
Learn more atplanzeducation.com.
SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce, or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(26:00):
or with a colleague.
For resources and updates, visitplan zeducation.com and
subscribe to receive weeklyemails.
Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator Podcast,
where the focus is on a less ismore approach to education.
Join your hosts, ChristineArnold and Tammy Musiowski,
authors of The MinimalistTeacher and your School
Leadership Edit, a minimalistapproach to rethinking your
school ecosystem.
Each week as they explorepractical ways to simplify your
(00:37):
work, sharpen your focus, andamplify what matters most so you
can teach and lead with greaterclarity, purpose, and joy.
SPEAKER_02 (00:46):
On this week's episode, we're joined by Dr.
Melissa Sadoff.
She has a great discussion withus all about rural schools, and
her peer down pointer is to makesure that you protect the core
mission of teaching andlearning.
Dr.
Melissa Sadoff is the ExecutiveDirector of the Arizona Rural
Schools Association and anassistant teaching professor in
(01:09):
the Educational LeadershipDepartment at Northern Arizona
University.
With over 30 years of experiencein educational leadership, she's
the author of The ResilientRural Leader: Rising to the
Challenges of Rural Education.
A passionate advocate for ruraleducation, Dr.
Sadorf works as a consultantthrough Vela Educational
Consultants, offering leadershipdevelopment and professional
(01:30):
learning.
She's also the host of the RuralScoop Podcast and a nationally
recognized voice in ruraleducational leadership.
SPEAKER_03 (01:40):
Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week's episode
of the Minimalist EducatorPodcast.
This week, Christine and I aretalking with a special guest,
Dr.
Melissa Saydorf, who is someonewho has spent a long time in her
career working in ruraleducation and supporting
educators and students there.
(02:01):
So we're really interested totalk to her this week and get
her insights into that work.
Welcome to the show, Melissa.
SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
Thank you so much.
It's fantastic to be here withyou both.
SPEAKER_03 (02:13):
We are, like I said, we're excited to have you here.
We haven't had someone talkabout the ins and outs of rural
education.
And so we are interested tolearn a lot about this.
How did you, I don't want to sayend up on that path in your
career, but what led you there?
SPEAKER_00 (02:33):
That's fine.
Well, I never left the rural,the rural landscape of
education.
I grew up as a rural student inArizona and went into teaching
in a rural school in the townthat I grew up in and was there
until I left in 2012, went fromthe classroom to the principal
(02:55):
seat.
And then in 2012, I took asuperintendent's position of
another district in Arizona andwas there for the last 12 years
of my career.
So rounded out 32 years, all ofit spent in rural education here
in Arizona.
So I never left.
SPEAKER_03 (03:12):
That's really cool to sorry, Christine, I know you
were going to say something, butit is really cool to hear about
people who have kind of stayedwith where they grew up or have
gone into a career that'ssimilar to what they grew up up
in.
So as someone who spent theirschool years in as a as a
(03:35):
learner, as a student, who spenttheir time in rural education
and then supports and continuesto support educators in the same
type of realm.
What are some of the things thatthat have been consistent across
your kind of lifetime in ruralArizona in education?
SPEAKER_00 (03:58):
So I'm gonna I'm gonna frame this in terms of
minimalism.
I I think that I would be remissif I didn't.
Yes, thank you.
So, and and you know, minimalismisn't about doing less for
students.
I think is, and especially inrural communities where we're
pretty thin on resources andaccess anyway.
(04:18):
Minimalism in a rural educationsetting really is about removing
the excess from the distractionsfrom what matters most.
And that is the relationshipsthat we cultivate in our
communities with ourstakeholders.
It's about the learning thathappens in and out of the
classrooms on a regular dailybasis.
(04:38):
And it's about the communitythat really is who we service in
that rural area as the heartbeatof the community.
You often hear people talk aboutwhat the rural school is is the
hub.
And that's very true.
So so when we are in a ruralarea, and obviously I'm speaking
in broad terms because rurallooks different from place to
(05:00):
place.
It's not a monolith.
So you have to consider context.
But in rural schools, we wealready operate lean.
I mean, we have we have smallstaff and we have the multi-role
responsibility.
So I think minimalism reallyreframes this circumstance that
we typically find ourselves inas an asset because it really
(05:22):
sharpens our focus rather thanbeing a deficit.
SPEAKER_02 (05:27):
I find this topic really fascinating to jump into
because you know, coming fromAustralia and Tammy's originally
from Canada as well.
We we are from these countriesthat have huge rural areas.
And I personally have neverworked or lived in one of those
areas, but I'm familiar withsome of the some of the things
that come along with thatlifestyle for the for the
(05:48):
community.
So, what do you think are someof the assumptions or maybe even
misconceptions that come alongwith with working in one of
these schools in a rural area?
SPEAKER_00 (06:00):
Well, I think I'll start with the asset-based
versus a deficit-based approachto what we do in rural areas.
And that is something,unfortunately, that is not easy
to overcome.
We do a lot of advocacy workwith the National Rural
Education Association trying toframe rural education as very,
(06:24):
very resource-heavy in terms ofwhat we bring in in place.
Where we are has a lot to dowith what we're able to tap into
and then involve our students interms of their learning, you
know, engaging curriculum tocommunity and to the local
geography and to the culture ofthe place that you are in.
(06:45):
And so that's something I thinkthat is often missed is that,
you know, we really do bring alot to the table in a rural area
that really has the capacity tojust be a more enriching
experience for the students thatare in our care.
SPEAKER_03 (06:58):
That connection to place-based education is really
something that we see a lot herein the Big Island, especially
because it is very rural outhere.
And I think people don'tnecessarily think of island,
like particularly Hawaii, asrural, but the Big Island has a
lot of rural area.
(07:19):
And so knowing that the, andespecially being in the middle
of the Pacific, right?
We have a different challenge aswell.
But in terms of like that's sucha great asset to use for
curriculum connections andteaching.
What do you notice for in yourexperience when working with
(07:42):
teachers or even as a principalor even as a superintendent?
I guess just depending on kindof how you're working with this.
But how what is the feeling forteachers, or what has been the
feeling for teachers, knowingthat there's there might be
limited resources and they haveto take on, you know, more hats
(08:05):
potentially than a teacher wouldin a heavily staffed school?
Because that feels like a reallyheavy responsibility.
SPEAKER_00 (08:13):
Sure.
Well, I I I'm gonna I'm gonnastart by answering your question
around a place like Hawaii,where you know, you you talk
about that connection to place.
And I think, and and I it's partof the answer to your question,
but preserving that ruralidentity, I think is really
important.
And and when you talk aboutminimalism as far as clarity of
(08:34):
purpose, for for rural schools,that often means holding really
tight onto that cultural andhistorical and community
tradition that is really evidentin all of the rural communities
that that I've been in, and I'msure you both too, even in
different countries, that thatit's not about cutting away
identity when you don't have alot of assets.
(08:54):
It really is about centering it.
And there are programs that makerural schools really that that
hub of community life.
But when you talk about limitedresources and and having that
multiple hats that they allwear, one of the things that
comes to mind for me isminimalism in leadership.
(09:16):
And this was me as asuperintendent, and it was also
me as a as a as a principal.
It means protecting teachersfrom initiative fatigue and
getting really focused on whatwe're doing and clarifying
what's the professionaldevelopment that is truly needed
and how are we mentoring to makesure that those few high impact
(09:37):
practices that we're focusing onare really where we're spending
our time.
It's where we're spending ourbudget, it's where we're
spending our thought rather thanoverwhelming the staff with
every new thing that comes downthe pike.
And so, you know, that wascertainly one of the places that
I really paid close attention tobecause we know that burnout is,
(09:59):
I mean, we we started talkingabout it five years ago with
COVID.
And it certainly is notsomething that has gone away
just because we're not in thesame place we were five years
ago with with a pandemic.
But we want to make sure thatwe're protecting our staff.
We have a recruitment andretention problem right now, not
(10:19):
just in in rural communities,but in urban and suburban
communities.
And that pipeline is really,really running very thin.
And it also has impactedleadership.
And so we're seeing thatpipeline into leadership also
being turned off.
And so, you know, we've got toprotect the people that are
there now.
(10:40):
We also understand in ruralcommunities that we don't have a
lot of applicants for thepositions that are open.
And so we have to coach uprather than push out.
And it's it's really gettingfocused on what's important,
what do they need to know, andhow am I going to make sure that
I get them there.
SPEAKER_02 (10:59):
Yeah, that's something I feel like I've been
having conversations around alot about recently is that idea
of retention rather than justgetting new teachers in.
I feel like that's kind ofinvesting focus in the wrong
areas.
Well, it's still important, youknow, you do have to look after
the people that are already inthe profession, you know?
(11:19):
Right.
It's really interesting to hearabout the initiative fatigue.
I don't know, I guess maybenaively, idealistically, I would
have thought life at a ruralschool might be simpler and that
sort of initiative fatigue mightnot hit you as hard, but you
still find that that is a realproblem for you.
SPEAKER_00 (11:38):
Sure.
I mean, we have to do the samethings that are being done in
urban and suburban schools, justwith fewer people and fewer
programs and fewer access tocurricular resources or
community resources.
And so with that kind ofleanness, you have to do with
what you have.
I call it a bailing wire andduct tape approach to getting
(12:01):
schooling done because you dowith what you have, which means
the human capital around you arewho you tap into.
And it's very easy to havepeople take on more than than is
probably wise for them in aneffort to get things done.
We we want to make sure thatwe're not encouraging too much
(12:23):
involvement.
We want to spread, spread thethe wealth.
That distributive leadershipthat we talk about as leaders is
something that really is notjust a nice to have, but it's a
need to do in a rural community.
SPEAKER_03 (12:38):
Can you talk a little bit more about that, that
specifically distributiveleadership?
Because I I think it's somethingthat people hear about, but they
don't necessarily know how to doit or how to make it effective.
And so, like Christine and I,when we taught together, we were
part of that kind of model,which was really, you know, you
(13:01):
you do feel a sense of like,okay, we're all taking on
different pieces.
Yes, that adds a little bitmore, but we're doing this
collectively and together.
And so can you talk about whatthat looks like or looked like
in your role?
SPEAKER_00 (13:15):
Yeah, sure.
Well, I'm gonna start withmaking sure that things are
streamlined as far asprofessional work because as a
leader, you are theinstructional leader in the
building, but you are also themanager.
And so that that's a fine line.
So for teachers, that means thatI'm making sure that I'm not I'm
not asking them to dounnecessary paperwork or
(13:36):
redundant assessments.
I want to make sure that I'mgiving back time for instruction
and student feedback and thosekinds of things that are
important for teaching andlearning to happen in that in
the classroom.
And and, you know, focusing onrather than every metric, I'm
gonna be focusing on just a fewkey indicators like attendance
and graduation readiness andwhere are they going
(13:57):
post-secondary as far as theirpathway?
You know, is it is it career, isit the military, is it uh
community college?
What do those things look like?
But then in addition to that,when I'm when I've removed the
the chafe from from the weeds,so to speak, as far as what
really needs to get done,distributive leadership is
(14:20):
making sure that I am investingin the leadership capacity and
development of the of the peopleon my staff.
And it wasn't always teachers inthe classroom.
It could have been my classifiedstaff as well.
And so I can't, as a ruralleader, do everything for
everyone all the time.
I I would burn myself out andthen I'm no good to anybody.
(14:42):
So it was what are the giftsthat those teachers or those
classified staff bring, whetherit's around they are comfortable
with technology or they're verygood at disaggregating data, or
they're really good at strategicplanning and uh coming up with
goals for grants, whatever thosethings were, it was giving them
(15:03):
the space and the opportunity totake that on as a role that then
they could lead forward with,knowing that their first
responsibility was as teacher inthe classroom or para pro in the
classroom or secretary in thefront office, but also providing
them the opportunity to growtheir leadership capacity.
(15:26):
And in doing so, not only was Igiving them the opportunity to
grow, I was also getting thingsdone in a way that it wasn't all
me that was doing it.
It wasn't a small core group ofpeople that was doing it.
Everyone in the system had theopportunity to take on a larger
role and to provide leadershipto the the whole school, the
(15:51):
whole district.
And so I you just as a roleleader, it is like I said, it
really is the way that you aregoing to lead best, is if you're
pulling other people into thoseleadership roles with you.
SPEAKER_02 (16:07):
Yeah, fair enough.
So it sounds like a really keything that you're speaking to
here is that idea of like havinga really rich knowledge base
about the people that you've gotaround you, about the place that
you're in, the identity of thecommunity.
Do you think that that that'sreally at the heart of getting
to the purposeful leadership?
SPEAKER_00 (16:30):
Uh it all is predicated on relationships and
knowing your staff, allowingthem to know you, being
vulnerable.
It's people over programs andmaking sure that not only do you
know everyone by name, you knowyour students by name, it just
you strip away the clutter, youknow, minimal minimalism,
stripping away the clutter tomake sure that
(16:52):
relationship-driven leadershipand teaching is really where
we're going to land.
And that's for that's foreveryone in the system.
That's for all of ourstakeholders, where, you know,
it's it's it's an issue ofconnection over compliance and
making sure that, you know, weknow that these things need to
get done, but that relationshipis what starts everything.
(17:13):
It's the foundation ofeverything.
SPEAKER_03 (17:17):
You just mentioned connection over compliance,
which is something I I think isa challenge for a lot of leaders
because you do have to just docertain things that can feel
like clutter, right?
So, how did you manage that whenyou knew that we just have to do
(17:40):
this for compliance purpose, butthen relay that to the people
that you were working with aslike, I know this isn't our
favorite thing to do, but wegotta do it.
So, how did you navigate that?
SPEAKER_00 (17:53):
Yeah, I think that people when people understand
the why behind something, thewhy behind the ask, it they're
more likely to, okay, I I I getit.
We've we've got to do thisreport, and it has to be done by
the end of this month.
And so knowing that it's it'ssomething that whether I do it
(18:15):
or you do it or somebody elsedoes it, it still has to get
done and the consequences for itnot happening.
So being transparent and beingcommunicative about the why
behind the task itself.
SPEAKER_02 (18:30):
If you had a magic wand and you could magic up one
thing that would make a hugedifference for rural schools and
rural educators, what what wouldthat one magical thing be that
they could do?
SPEAKER_00 (18:43):
That's a really good question, Christine.
SPEAKER_02 (18:50):
Like something that would really make a difference
to people and make life a bitbetter.
SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
You know, I I I I honestly think that I I wish
that people would understandthat rural education is not
about scarcity, it's aboutclarity.
It it I I wish that, you know,people would understand that if
we strip away what does notserve students and we look at
(19:21):
what we have around us thathelps to provide really a
foundation for connection withplace, with people, with
community and culture, that'sthe heart of rural education.
And that intentional simplicityis where education is deeply
personal and rooted incommunity.
(19:43):
I I wish that people wouldunderstand how beautiful that is
and what an opportunity it isboth to teach and lead in that
kind of environment and to learnas a student.
SPEAKER_03 (19:55):
You just said two words that really caught me:
intentional simplicity.
And if that that if we couldcapture that, if we could like
just wave the wand everywhereand have everyone participate in
that intentionality,particularly like let's learn
(20:15):
something from rural schools andbring that into those large
urban centers, right?
Because things are socomplicated and bureaucratic in
large areas that it's so easy tolose sight of what the purpose
is.
And Christine and I talk a lotabout purpose.
Like, what is the point of doingthis?
(20:36):
And if it's not going to servestudents, why are we doing it?
Are we doing it?
Yeah.
And so I think there's a lot ofstrong lessons to be learned
from the work that you've doneand that other leaders are doing
in rural education.
What has been what what do youthink would be your favorite
(20:58):
part of working in ruralcommunities?
SPEAKER_00 (21:01):
Oh, it's definitely about the community itself and
the engagement that you're ableto uh really lean into.
It's about families that knoweach other and know who you are
and you know them.
It's the capacity that you haveto move quickly.
There's not a lot of red tape inrural education because you have
(21:22):
pretty flat organizationalcharts.
And so there's not a lot of uhof layers between decision and
and implementation.
And so things can turn prettyquickly.
And it's and it's knowing thatyou are ensuring the
preservation of an identity of aplace and being a part of
(21:46):
contributing to that in a veryreal, very important way.
SPEAKER_02 (21:51):
So if we had some listeners that were big city
teachers who'd spent their wholecareer in, you know, urban
environments, and they're nowreally motivated and they love
the idea of moving into a ruralcommunity and and joining the
schools there, what sort ofadvice would you have for them
as they move into that sort ofpart of their career?
SPEAKER_00 (22:14):
So I think that what's important is that people
who are considering moving intoa rural area take the time to
understand rurality.
And so it's not the same fromplace to place.
Like I said, rural Arizona isnot the same thing as rural
Maine or rural Hawaii or ruralMontana.
(22:36):
There's there's context to takeinto consideration.
Um, and so getting a chance toreally know the place that
you're considering going to, whoare the people that are there?
What are the traditions thatreally are important to them?
What's the geography like?
What are the resources that areavailable to you?
(22:56):
And uh spending some time reallydoing some research on what does
it mean to be a rural educatorin that particular place would
be really important.
I a lot of educator prepprograms now and leadership prep
programs following that arefocusing at least a course, if
(23:18):
not some experiences within ateacher internship or something
like that, on being in a ruralarea and doing your hours or
your practicums in a ruralbecause it is different.
And not having an understandingbefore you go into that kind of
environment, you you might getlost.
(23:41):
And it's really important tohave an understanding of what
you're stepping into before youget there.
So I would I would hope thatpeople that are considering that
would make sure that they takethat extra step and go spend
some time in a rural area sothat you know what it means to
be in a rural area.
SPEAKER_03 (23:58):
Absolutely.
Always understand the place thatyou're heading because you can
have some major culture shock ina positive or negative way for
sure.
You just have to frame it foryourself.
That's um, Melissa, we haveenjoyed talking to you.
And as with many of our guests,we can just keep talking and
talking, but we always like tokeep our episodes around 30
(24:21):
minutes.
It's a nice commute chat thatpeople can listen to.
At the end of our shows, we askour guests for a paradown
pointer.
And I feel like you've given alot of those throughout the
show.
Is there something that youwould, you know, if you're
giving one piece of advice, thiswould be your paradown pointer
that you've maybe you've alreadymentioned it, or maybe it's
something else?
SPEAKER_00 (24:41):
I I guess I would say minimalism in rural
education is about settingboundaries and choosing not to
say yes to everything external,all of the demands that are on
your plate or time, and insteadprotecting the core mission of
teaching and learning, whetherit's in a rural area or anywhere
else.
Stay true to what matters most.
SPEAKER_03 (25:05):
Thank you so much, Melissa.
That's a perfect way to end theshow.
Thank you again for being withus this week.
SPEAKER_00 (25:11):
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_02 (25:12):
It was a pleasure.
This episode is sponsored byPlan Z Education Services,
supporting educators withforward-thinking professional
learning that puts both studentimpact and teacher wellness at
the center.
Driven by a vision to teachless, impact more, they help
educators find purpose,prioritize what matters, and
(25:33):
simplify their practice.
Learn more atplanzeducation.com.
SPEAKER_01 (25:39):
Thank you for listening to the Minimalist
Educator Podcast.
Join Christine and Tammy andguests again next time for more
conversations about how tosimplify and clarify the
responsibilities and tasks inyour role.
If today's episode helped yourethink, reimagine, reduce, or
realign something in yourpractice, share it in a comment
(26:00):
or with a colleague.
For resources and updates, visitplan zeducation.com and
subscribe to receive weeklyemails.
Until next time, keep it simpleand stay intentional.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Male Room with Dr. Jesse Mills
As Director of The Men’s Clinic at UCLA, Dr. Jesse Mills has spent his career helping men understand their bodies, their hormones, and their health. Now he’s bringing that expertise to The Male Room — a podcast where data-driven medicine meets common sense. Each episode separates fact from hype, science from snake oil, and gives men the tools to live longer, stronger, and happier lives. With candor, humor, and real-world experience from the exam room and the operating room, Dr. Mills breaks down the latest health headlines, dissects trends, and explains what actually works — and what doesn’t. Smart, straightforward, and entertaining, The Male Room is the show that helps men take charge of their health without the jargon.