Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:19):
Welcome to the
Minimalist Educator Podcast, a
podcast about paring down torefocus on the purpose and
priorities in our roles withco-hosts and co-authors of the
Minimalist Teacher Book, TammyMusiowsky-Borniman and Christine
Arnold.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
In today's episode we
welcome back to the podcast
Nicole Dysinger.
Our conversation today isaround brand new teachers.
Nicole Dysinger is a mentalteacher, professional learning
facilitator and curriculumdeveloper.
She has experienced teachingand learning globally for 15
years.
Nicole holds a Bachelor ofScience in Elementary Education
(00:57):
with an emphasis in psychologyand a Master's Degree in Early
Childhood Education with anendorsement in bilingual,
multicultural education.
She has experienced with arange of curriculums from
multi-age state standards andthe International Baccalaureate
Primary Years Program.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Hello everyone and
welcome to this week's episode
of the Minimalist EducatorPodcast.
We are excited to have areturning guest with us, Nicole
Dysinger.
Thank you again for being withus.
Again, Nicole, Thanks forhaving me.
How are you today?
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Christine, I am doing
well.
I'm slightly jealous of Nicolewith a cup of tea, then it looks
quite warm and comforting.
How are you guys going Good?
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Going good.
It's the season for tea, soyeah, embrace it.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Warm drinks and lots
of darkness, for sure.
So we're going to have a chattoday, Nicole, about working
with new teachers and build onsome of your experience in that
area.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Yeah, so I've
recently started mentoring some
first-year teachers for anorganization here in Arizona and
they're a range from special edto middle school elementary.
They're a range of, you know,first career versus second or
(02:29):
third career teachers.
It's quite a big range of wherethey're coming from and what
their story is and how they gotthere.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, very
interesting stuff.
I was very briefly working withthe university and went to
visit a lot of educationstudents while they were out at
schools doing their practicalunits and I have to say,
sometimes I would get a littlebit scared about you know,
they'd be teaching one lesson aday or two lessons a day, but
(02:58):
the amount of time that theywere putting into one or two
lessons a day, I was like, well,this is not going to be
sustainable for you, you know.
So do you come across that sortof thing with first-year
teachers as well?
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Yeah, I think it's
more, maybe less, of like the
amount of time spent on onelesson, but more just the like
well, I have this really greatactivity, but it doesn't
actually address the objectivethat they're trying to meet in
that moment.
So there still is a lot of focuson like making a really great
(03:32):
activity or lesson, which youknow is important to a certain
extent, but I think it's more ofthe does the activity unless it
actually addressed theobjective that they're supposed
to be meeting at that point.
And there's still a little bitof a disconnect there with a lot
(03:53):
of new teachers, which I alsocan understand, because you know
you're thinking about how doyou design a lesson?
How is it going to be engaging?
What's going to be excitingabout it?
Are the kids going to respond,especially if you're teaching a
whole group?
Right?
And then on top of that, like,is it going to be fun for me as
(04:13):
the teacher?
Rather than you know, as youbecome more experienced you
realize, oh, I can just do thisreally short, quick thing that
addresses the objective, andthen they can go on and practice
by themselves or in a smallgroup or however else you decide
to do it.
But there's a lot less of allthat fluff and pinterest-y stuff
(04:34):
.
You know, as you learn how toteach and what's actually
important and how to addressthose objectives that you're
required to teach.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
You've had some
interesting conversations with
your teachers and so how do youwith because they're coming from
different classrooms anddifferent schools and different
experiences, so how do you dothey come to you with, like this
is what I really need help in,or do you like what's your
process to help them kind offocus their energy on, like what
(05:07):
they really need to focus on?
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Good question.
It kind of depends.
Each one's a little bitdifferent At the beginning.
The nice thing about thisorganization that I'm working
with my role as a mentor ispurely a support role, so I
don't have to do any sort ofevaluating, there's no pressure
for me to make sure they do anyparticular thing, which is
(05:32):
really nice, because then I canjust be there as a support for
them.
I found it.
They trusted me very quickly,which was really nice, and I was
actually quite surprised by,but very appreciative that they
received me well in that regard.
(05:56):
But the very beginning, my job,my role, my purpose was just to
get to know them and just buildthat relationship Same thing
that we do with our students inthe classroom.
Right, like there really was nofocus on changing things,
there's no focus on, you know,goals, nothing like that.
(06:19):
It was really just relationshipbuilding, which was really nice
.
But, as you know, I've gottento know them.
I've got to know theirpersonalities a little bit
better, their different teachingstyles, their comfort level in
terms of trying new things, howthey are in terms of receiving
feedback or, you know, criticalfeedback, things like that.
(06:41):
And so for each one, I justtried to make sure that, like I
check in with them how are youdoing, how are things going, you
know what's going well.
Like, let's focus on some thingsthat you feel are going really
well, and then maybe, what aresome things that you think are
maybe not going as well?
And then, within that, I try to, you know, use my professional
(07:05):
judgment to decide are one ofthose things something that we
should be steering towards interms of a goal, or is it kind
of just them venting and, youknow, processing all of the
trials and tribulations of beinga teacher on top of being a
first year teacher?
And so within that, we kind of,you know, figure out, sometimes
(07:29):
it's a goal that comes fromthem, sometimes it's something I
try to guide them to but neverreally push them.
If it's something that they'renot really receiving or it feels
like maybe that's not the rightyou know goal at the time for
them, or direction, then I, youknow, steer a different
direction.
But I also come back toteaching and what are the main
(07:54):
things you need?
And that's routines andprocedures.
So do they have them?
Are they efficient?
Are they effective?
If not, okay, let's addressthose, which one is probably the
highest priority at the time.
And then also, from there,what's your classroom management
like?
How consistent are you?
(08:15):
You know, whatever system youwant to develop is totally fine.
I will support them in that.
But are they following through?
Is there consistency?
Are they sticking to one thingor is they changing every week
or two weeks, you know?
Because if that's the case,then we need to find something,
even if it doesn't work forever.
(08:35):
Let's pick one thing and justtry it for a little while, and
then now we're getting into moreplanning and designing learning
engagements that are not onlyeffective but also students want
(08:55):
to do and be part of.
And it's not more work for theteacher, it's teaching them
those ways to make it actuallyless work for them and more work
for the students, which is hardto understand.
So that's kind of I kind offall back on those main
principles, right, Because youhave to have those things in
(09:16):
order to have a successfulclassroom, no matter what grade
you're teaching or subject orwhat your environment looks like
, things like that.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
It sounds very much
like a coaching sort of role.
Do you feel like you use a lotof elements of instructional
coaching in your work?
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Yeah, I think it's
similar to that.
So we've done quote unquotecoaching cycles, I guess, but
maybe not in like a formalizedfashion, in a sense right where
it's just more organic ornatural in terms of how it
happens.
So you know, I'm keeping tabs,I'm keeping track, but they
(09:55):
might not necessarily be awareof like where we're at in the
cycle.
You know I get to work withthem next semester as well, so
it's the whole first school yearthey have, which is really nice
.
So I think next semester I'llbe more explicit with them about
things in terms of like whywe're analyzing this evidence,
(10:17):
you know, based on a lesson thatyou taught, or what part of
this you know goal are we now inand how do we move on to the
next stage, that type of thing.
But I think, just for gettingthem started, they don't really
need any other information intheir brain because they already
have, like learning their newschool, learning their team,
(10:38):
learning their grade, learningall the new programs they have
to teach.
Plus, you know we have allthese new requirements of
science, of readings.
So if that's on your you knowto-do list, that's also
something as well.
So there's just lots of things.
Plus they're just trying to,you know, manage and maintain
their immune system, which weknow.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
The first few years
it takes a toll and Chodas are
you finding that these newteachers have ways to, or
strategies, I guess toolswhatever to help them focus
their attention, like comingfrom a program then coming into
(11:22):
teaching?
Like, do you feel like theyhave some kind they're somewhat
equipped with, like a way tonavigate all the stuff?
Or and I guess that could beindividual, but is there like
even somebody that stands outlike, yes, this person
definitely has these skillsalready and this one you can,
you know?
(11:42):
Yeah, I think.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
One teacher that I'm
mentoring.
She definitely is able tonavigate her classroom
environment quite well in termsof like I think she feels fairly
confident in herself and howshe's going about.
Does that mean she's doingeverything to the best that it
(12:11):
could be?
Probably not.
But who is in the first yearteaching right, so many things
we've learned, that I look backand I'm like, what was I doing?
Why did I do that?
But that's also, I think, justpart of it, like it's just part
of this like process and journeyof being a teacher and you know
you find whatever ideas you canand you think that makes sense
(12:32):
to you and you try them and yougive them a go and then, as you
develop your skills and yourselfas a you know person, then you
learn what works for you andwhat doesn't and yeah, but I
feel like she she's able to,yeah, like navigate her
classroom environment quiteconfidently.
She's also able to navigate theprofessional setting quite
(12:58):
confidently and really veryadult, like very perfectly,
which is quite impressive to me.
You know she has to deal withparaprofessionals on a regular
basis and she has to deal withadmin on a regular basis and she
has to.
You know she has lots of otherpeople who come in and out of
(13:20):
her classroom and she's able tomanage all of these
relationships.
She's able to advocate forherself, she's advocating for
her students, she advocates forher classroom and how she wants
things done.
And you know there's been someconversations that the other
person involved doesn't agreewith what she said or how she's
(13:42):
doing it, but she is sticking towhat she feels is right for her
and for her students and forher classroom and I commend that
because I feel like that is onething that a lot of people
don't have, especially, you know, when you first start teaching,
because you don't know you, youdon't know really what works or
(14:02):
what you should say or what youcan say or what you shouldn't,
that type of thing.
I feel like she already hasthat, which is quite remarkable
and very cool to see.
I think the other ones, interms of skills that they have,
I think overall they'renavigating the curriculum as
(14:25):
well as they can.
I think they don't necessarilyunderstand their curriculum
right, they're just goingthrough the standards or
whatever program their schoolhas for them, rather than you
know making those connectionsthat you do as you get more
fluent with what you're teachingand the grade you're teaching
(14:46):
and the content you're teaching.
But to me that's kind of askill that you do have to learn
as you go.
It's not something that younecessarily just have right away
.
You know, some people have alittle bit more awareness of it,
but I think overall they'redoing pretty great, juggling all
(15:08):
of the different things thatthey're having to manage and
also trying to just enjoy beinga teacher, because that's what
they just finished four years ofuniversity to do, so they're
excited about it, but then youalso have the realities of what
that job entails.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
They for sure, and we
know that across the world, a
huge percentage of teachersleave within the first five
years of getting into theprofession.
That's not just in somecountries, that's all around the
world.
We have this mass exodus in thefirst few years.
So, knowing the people thatyou're working with now, what
(15:47):
sorts of things do you thinkcould help our new teachers to
stick around for a bit longerand stay in the profession, or
what are the obstacles thatyou're seeing that might stop
people from staying?
Speaker 4 (16:02):
Yeah, I think not
feeling like they have enough
support is probably the biggestthing.
I really appreciate thisorganization, because that is
the role of me essentially isjust support in order to retain
teachers in those first fewyears, because a lot of schools
have instructional coaches nowor they have reading specialists
(16:24):
or math specialists or whateverthey have, but that doesn't
necessarily always equate tosupport.
Yeah, it's someone they'rekeeping you accountable for
implementing the programs thatthe school has bought and wants
you to implement, kind of notalways, but a lot of the time.
(16:45):
You know we.
It's really great when schooldistricts are like look, we have
this person we're going tobring on to help us with
instruction, but that's oneperson for an entire school and
if it's K through fifth grade orK through sixth grade, that's a
lot of teachers they have tosupport and help, you know, with
instruction.
And so I think that's probablythe biggest obstacle is just
(17:09):
support and like not necessarilyknowing who they can go to to
ask for help, even simple thingslike I remember my first year
teaching.
It was like two or three daysbefore school started and I
remember this so vividly.
I asked my friend Gina at thetime and I'm like I think
there's a really weird questionthat, like, I don't even know
(17:30):
how to take attendance no, no, Ijust love that, and we were
like that just well, school, wedid it literally in a paper book
, so it's not like I had tolearn an online program or
anything like that, and so wejust always had a giggle about
that, because it's just littlestuff, right, like it's all of
those things that just pile upand you don't really know how to
(17:52):
prioritize.
What should I be spending mostof my time on?
Right now versus you know howdoes that shift happen once
school starts, versus once youstart doing groups, versus once
you start doing, you know,getting into your curriculum a
bit more intensely?
So I think support nonevaluative support for teachers
(18:15):
is really what they need,especially at in the first few
years, because I mean, I thinkthis is really great that I get
to be their mentor for the firstyear, but then, but then you're
on your own.
So what about your second year?
What about your third year?
Like, yes, your first year isyour hardest, but you also don't
really know what's going on,right, yeah, right.
(18:35):
So you're in your second year,you know that fog is kind of
lifted a little bit and you'relike, oh, that's what that
person was talking about, butthen you still need help
refining and implementing thingsright.
So yeah, I think my first youknow suggestion would be for all
(18:56):
schools that there's justsupport in some capacity that,
like, is a person that a teachercan just go to and ask those
weird questions or those thingsthat they're like I don't know,
Like I found this really a greatlesson, but you know how do I
adapt it?
or is this actually a goodlesson, kind?
Of thing, yeah, and I thinkI've really tried to stress to
(19:21):
all of the teachers I've beenmentoring that they should ask
for help.
So ask another teacher.
It doesn't matter if they're onyour teaching team, it doesn't
matter if they are also anotherbrand new teacher.
You know like get whateverideas you can from wherever.
You never know which one'sgoing to work for you.
I never know which one's goingto be like oh hey like that's so
(19:44):
much better.
I'm going to just do that Likeyes, even now, you know, I'm
teaching for over 16 years.
I'm like if someone has abetter idea than mine, I'm happy
to take it, like I don't needto be the idea generator.
Absolutely not no, if you havesomething that works better, I
want it, because I'm all aboutmaking this job as fun.
(20:09):
You know which is what it'ssupposed to be.
It really should be fun becauseit's such a great career,
especially if you love kids.
But it's all the other stuffthat just gets overwhelming and
then it's hard to stay focusedon that.
You know reason why you wentinto it in the first place?
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
You had mentioned to
and kind of alluded to this
before.
But we were talking about howyou were kind of coaching one
teacher to let go of some of theyou know, because there's so
much packed into a program youcan't do everything, and I think
just that like permission forsomeone to say, like just let go
of that, Like you don't have,it's not possible or reasonable
(20:54):
to think that you can do all ofthose things Right, I think
teachers really need to hearthat.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
Yeah, I think you
know, especially in the US over
the past so many years, is thisbig?
You know a new buzzword offidelity.
We're going to do everything tofidelity.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
Right.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
Right, which no,
something great, right, Some
things that works.
But that also takes away anyteacher autonomy, any teacher
creativity, any flexibility,right.
And we know that we can't justteach a scripted program.
(21:35):
We know that our students aredifferent from year to year.
Today, my students might becompletely different from
Tammy's, whose classroom isright next door.
To mind Right, like absolutely,and not just assume that every
student at that grade level atthat school is at the same place
(21:56):
at the same time, yeah.
So yeah, one of my mentees wasshe was given a reading program,
which is great, especially whenyou're just learning how to
teach reading.
Awesome.
It's a great resource, right.
But keyword is a resource.
So you know she's having to doscience of reading on top of
(22:21):
this reading program, which is,you know, the science of reading
.
Lessons that they're doing aregrammar and you know spelling,
all of that stuff, which is alsogreat, wonderful.
But then to do a readingprogram that just doubles up on
some of that same stuff, youknow she's like I don't know how
(22:42):
I'm going to fit all this inand I need to do a whole group
because I can't, I don't haveenough time to do a small group
if I do this and this and this.
And I kind of just told herwell, let's look at one of the
lessons, let's go through andlook at all the parts and what
is it covering?
And is that something you'realready doing in another setting
, you know another context, oris that something that you
(23:03):
should piece in because it's notcovered somewhere else?
So, basically, we read throughit and I'm like well, this
little chunk over here is reallyall you need to teach, because
everything else is alreadycovering in some other capacity.
And she was just really youknow, I could tell she was
(23:23):
really hesitant about that andkind of like I don't know if I
trust your advice right now it'sokay, I always tell them I'm
happy for you to question me or,you know, not take my feedback.
I think that's good if theydon't, because then they're
starting to think for themselvesand like really analyze what's
(23:43):
you know coming at them.
But I just like, I just don'tknow.
My instructional coach saidblah, blah, blah, you know.
And so I just looked at her andI said I don't really think I
need to do this.
I said, but I'm going to, I'mgoing to give you permission to
not teach this entire lesson andjust teach the part that you
(24:05):
think is going to be mostbeneficial to your students.
And she just kind of looked atme like oh my gosh, like and you
can just see this like reliefof like, oh, wow, you know.
And I think I've had a similarexperience with other ones where
I've just said like yeah, look,you know, your principal said
(24:27):
they're already coming at you,coming to you at a deficit, so
whatever you do is great.
I'm like there's your ticketright there.
You know, like you don't have toteach this program every single
day at the pace that it'stelling you to, because you're
(24:47):
already way ahead of where theyare anyways.
That's your permission.
That is your permission to slowdown if you need to.
That's your permission to do alesson over again if they didn't
get it.
So it was too hard, you know.
So it's just been interestingto have those conversations that
(25:07):
they're looking for that likevalidation or that quote unquote
permission to not do everything.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Mm, hmm, yeah, wow,
that's a good message, I think,
for all of us.
Really, nicole, I feel liketime always runs away from us,
doesn't it, tammy?
But I feel like we should askyou for a pare down pointer, if
you can.
I'm sure there are so manythings that you could advise for
our new teachers, but do youhave a pare down pointer you can
(25:39):
think of today?
That's a good question.
Speaker 4 (25:45):
I think and I say
this to myself as well like in
Tammy and I've talked about itbefore.
I think we've talked about itlike just keep it simple, like
it doesn't have to be fancy, itdoesn't have to be over the top.
It can be as simple as likereading a story to your students
(26:05):
and having a discussion.
It can be as simple as puttinga box of books in the middle of
the room and having them findfacts in them and then sharing
them with each other.
You know like, yeah, it's, itjust doesn't have to be complex,
it doesn't have to be showy, itdoesn't have to be this big
(26:26):
ordeal to be effective learningexperiences.
And if it meets your objective,then perfect.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
Right, like we don't
have to make it this big thing
when it doesn't need to be.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yes, another good
reminder for us.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yeah, thank you so
much, nicole, for being with us.
Again, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Today's episode was
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Speaker 1 (27:07):
Be sure to join Tammy
and Christine and guests for
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Back with them at PlanZPLS onTwitter or Instagram.
Your music for the podcast hasbeen written and performed by
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