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December 13, 2023 47 mins

Gear up for an enriching conversation with Lia, an IndeAlum and successful coach. She shares her inspiring journey - from being an executive to founding her own business, guided by her experience with an executive coach and fueled by the desire to lead authentically. Experiences such as parenthood and coping with the global pandemic led her to pivot and align her path with her true passions and values.

Our conversation takes us from Lia building a successful coaching practice to navigating personal growth. Lia offers profound insights into supporting clients through transitions, marrying qualitative and quantitative data to create impactful strategic messages, and recognizing patterns to boost individual and team performance. As the conversation unfolds, we shed light on the power of tandem coaching and its benefits in succession planning, co-founder relationships, and managing organizational changes.

Here's a hint - it's not just about understanding and utilizing your superpowers and evolving for continued growth and success - but also understanding your liabilities and how to befriend them in the process.

As we bring the episode to a close, we share valuable insights about the mindset shifts necessary for successful entrepreneurship. We emphasize the importance of trust in the process, and creating a service or product that solves a personal need. 

So, if you've ever wanted to start your own business or if you're just seeking guidance for personal and professional growth, this episode is packed with practical advice, insights, and wisdom. 

Join us and let's explore the transformative power of coaching together.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome everybody to another episode of the Modern
As always, I am your host, johnAlmacy, the head of community
here at Indie Collective.
Today, I am super excited tohave another Indie alumni here
with me for an episode of theLaunchpad.
If this is your first timelistening to the Modern
Independent, there's a couple ofdifferent types of shows that
we have on side of the ModernIndependent.

The first one is called theSeven Figure Playbook.
This one is a lot of expertsthat come in that have scaled
organizations to Seven Figuresand Beyond and are reaching back
to try to provide frameworks ormodes of reference for how
they've achieved what they'vebeen able to achieve while
balancing their lives.
We also have episodes called theLaunchpad, and these episodes,

like the one you're about tolisten to today, are members
that have not only graduatedfrom the Indie Collective
curriculum but have gone on todo amazing things just as they
were doing prior to finding theIndie Collective curriculum, and
they share ideas about wherethey're at in life, what they're
working on, what that journeywas like, and really are meant
to be a place where you can feelrelated to.

So I'm super, super excitedtoday to have Leah with us here,
and she is a consultant, coachand facilitator that helps
mission-driven leaders, teamsand organizations thrive during
moments of transformation,whether focused on growing
beyond the startup phase,planning for senior leadership

transitions or making a rightturn in their strategy as they
navigate change.
She partners with leaders andteams to clarify values, align
strategy and look deeply inwardso they can evolve themselves
and their organizations.
Leah, thank you for taking thetime to come and hang out today.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
Thanks so much for having me.
I'm excited to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
I am super excited too.
I always love these Launchpadepisodes Also, just because I
get to dive back into what itwas like going through the
curriculum and the things thatwe pick up on Absolutely.
I want to just start off,really, by giving you the floor
to kind of lay out what you workon and why you're passionate
about it, and so I know we weretalking a little bit before the

bikes came on, but you've nowbeen in this lane for about a
year, year and a half.
What kind of landed you in thistype of work and what has the
last year and a half been like?

Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yeah, so it's a great question.
I started my business in Iwould say I think it was.
It was like I had a soft launchin 2021, but I really kind of
hit the ground running inJanuary 2022.
So it's been about a year and ahalf, a little more than that,
and it came on the heels of asix month sabbatical that I took
with my husband and young son,and that came on the heels of

being a four year stint as afounding executive director of a
I started my career in nonprofit.
I was a teacher America teacheroriginally and then worked in
educational equity nonprofits.
After that and varying roles ofleadership, I stopped to get my
master's degree in there andright before I started my

business, I was an executiveleader and that was just such a
transformational experience forme I think the biggest, both
personally and professionally.
So, like professionally,outside I was successful.
I met my targets.
It was great work experience.
Internally, there was just a lotgoing on.
I was learning how to lead in adifferent way and, I think,

really grappling with what itmeant to lead authentically.
And so I kind of like reachedthis point when I was in that
role, where I was like what gotme here is not going to kind of
get me there, but I didn't knowwhat new ways of being would
even look like and it felt likemy whole world kind of blew up.
And at that time I got anexecutive coach who was just an

incredible steward for me inthat point of my life and
through that process I was kindof it became clear that I wanted
to do for others what she wasdoing for me and that actually
that would lean into mysuperpowers and be a lot more
aligned and she was.
So she kind of encouraged me totake the leap and I did, and so
I took a sabbatical first,which was really great.

That's a whole other story foranother conversation.
And then I started my businessand practice when I came back
and it happened reallyorganically, I would say.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Well, I love what you , the way that you just
described that transition therethat you, I realized I had the
self, you know, recognition thatI needed to coach.
I engage with, coach coachtransforms my life, inspires me
to transform others.
Like that is such a beautifuland organic way to to have your

It feels almost like theuniverse is like kind of calling
out to you to change paths.
Right, it's like hey, I wantedyou to have this experience
because I need you over here.
And then you chose to kind ofanswer that call and continue to
develop yourself and go downthat path.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I realized that, and so it waskind of interesting, though,
because a couple things happened.
One in that moment, I startedto lead in my executive director
seat in a way that was muchmore aligned and authentic.
So I realized, ah, this isactually possible to do, and I
understand now kind of what ittakes to do that and what it can
look like.
It wasn't just my coach.

I got a lot of feedback fromteam members positive and
critical and I was just learninga lot about myself in that time
It was a huge like moment andchallenging moment of personal
I also became a parent.
In that time, the pandemichappened, so, like all these
things were converging and so Iwas like you know, I actually I
know that I can do this now.
I did it for a couple moreyears and then I realized that I

actually wanted to be on theside of helping others do that
versus doing it myself at thatpoint, and I just needed a more
sustainable lifestyle as wellWith a small child.
We wanted to grow our family,and so it didn't.
I knew when I came back from asabbatical, I wasn't going to
step back into an ED seat, andmy coach was like listen, if you
want the job that you'redescribing to me, you're going

to have to make it, and so thatis what I attempted to do.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, I love that.
Well, and I think, continuingto kind of dive into that
journey over the last year and ahalf, I think that there's well
, actually, you know what.
I'm going to kind of backtracka little bit.
Did it play out the way thatyou were expecting it to play
out, or was it just kind of likeI'm pivoting through different
things, I'm navigating you knowa bunch of different stuff and

it just you're doing the nextbest thing as it was kind of
coming along to you.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
It's a little bit of both.
I mean, I would say that I wentin with like a hope that I
would do some great work, that Iwould learn some stuff, that I
would get to coach people, thatI would get to build a clientele
, and I actually I created areally complicated plan for
myself for the first year, withlike a lot of metrics and a lot

of targets and a lot of goals,not just revenue, but also what
types of clients I wanted tohave, et cetera.
So I had a very clear visionmaybe almost like two
perspective of what it wouldlook like for the year, and I
think that was my way of likeokay, let me try to put as much
control around this thing that Ican.
You know you as a businessowner, you can do certain things
, but a lot is going to justhappen, right, and you have to

figure it out as you as it comes.
And so in some ways yeah, itwas, it was what I expected.
In other ways it was better andin some ways it was harder, and
I did decide that I was goingto, kind of just I was going to.
I didn't go very niche in thebeginning and I'm still that's

something I'm still on thejourney of.
I'm getting clearer and clearerover time about my ideal client
, but I just decided that Iwould trust myself to, to take
the projects that seemed, thatseemed aligned, and not to take
the ones I didn't.
And I I actually would say thatI got like way more work than I
thought I would, which was cool.

I made more money than Ithought I would.
I worked more than I wanted toand I learned so much about
about being a business owner andI actually jumped into Indie
Collective pretty early on in mybusiness Like it was only a few
months after I had launched abusiness that I started.
So I was able to apply some ofthose things early on and still

applying them.
I feel like it's such a process.

Speaker 1 (08:22):
But yeah, it for sure is.

Speaker 2 (08:24):

Speaker 1 (08:26):
To multiple.
I know people that are in theirfourth cohort and they're
multiple years out from theirfirst cohort and they're still
tinkering with.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
Exactly tinkering.
Yeah, that's a good word for it?

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Well, because I like to say tinkering, because it's
like you know, they've built aproduct and they've built
something successful that works.
But I think, by nature of thetypes of people that the
community attracts, we're allinnate tinkers, you know.
We're always trying to find,like how could this be, you know
, nominally better, or what isthis thing?
That this new idea showed up?

Like I wonder if we could applythe same framework that worked
for this one on this one, andlike let's start playing with
And it just becomes thisiterative game, you know, of
sorts, over time.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Exactly, yeah, exactly iterative, and that was
what my coach had told me aswell.
I my tendency is to want to putout a thing and have it be
perfect, and so for me, like theprocess of launching this
business has been a process ofunlearning some of my own
perfectionism and ways of beingthat I think like don't actually

serve a business owner.
Of course, I want to deliverexcellence and have a great
product, and I always am goingto do that, but I think my
tendency is to want to controland that's like something I've
been trying to unlearn over time.
So, and it's been reallyrelevant for me now, after
stepping away from my businessfor a maternity leave, I had a

second baby in February of thisyear, so I stepped away from my
business and I've been comingback over the last couple of
months and it's been a whole,really different experience from
the first time, so that's alsojust been really interesting.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm wondering.
I want to kind of back into Iknow we've been talking about
like the business side and yourjourney over the last year but
to kind of get back to the coreof your coaching practice, do
you have, like a coachingphilosophy or is there some type
of piece of that coaching thatyou really latched onto Like?

This is why I'm a coach, thisis why I do what I do.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, I mean, when I found my coach, it was because I
was in a dark place.
I someone forwarded me anarticle and was just like, hey,
this might be useful to you, andI read it and then I was like
this person, I have to meet her.
I feel so seen by what shewrote.
I feel like she's saying wordsthat I wasn't able to say, and

so I just called her and wechatted and I felt so held and
supported by her, and so what Ilearned from that, and what she
and I even talked about, andwhat I even learned in my first
year and a half doing this, isthat so much of this work is
about seeing people right, likethat is why I wanted to do it.
It's like people need a spaceto be radically held and

supported and seen when they'redoing really hard work.
I would say that I'm not like atraditional coach in that I am a
I mean, I am a coach but Idon't only ask questions, I do
that and I mix in.
It's like a coaching hybrid alittle bit a coaching mentorship
hybrid, a coaching supporthybrid, coaching consulting

hybrid and that is what my coachoffered me and she was like
offer what you needed right, andwhat's happened is that people
have approached me that havebeen that really see themselves
in my content that I put online,in the way that I talk about
things and the sort of unitingtheme that comes around with all

of them is a couple of things.
One is they're usually in thatmoment of transition or change
they're at their high performerswho worked really hard, got to
a certain place and then lookedaround and said wait a minute,
I'm not happy or I actuallydon't want this, I want
something more, or I wantsomething different, or I'm at a
place where, now I'm at this,there's dissonance between my

authentic self and what I feellike I have to do to perform for
this role, and they understandthat same thing that I was
grappling with.
What got me here is not going toget me there, and I need
support to figure out A whatdoes it even look like to do
things different?
B who am I authentically atthis point in my life?
And then C how do I untanglesome of the ways of being that

I've learned throughconditioning that aren't mine,
so I can chart a new pathforward that's authentic and
grounded in who I am, and thatis really what I bring.
So I do a lot of work withfolks on defining their values,
new ways of being that maybethey haven't thought before,

realigning with their heart andstill getting the work done and
then helping them envision whatit could look like to do and be
differently in the future.
So that is a lot of what Ibring to the coaching work.

Speaker 1 (13:25):
I love all of that, but I'm to narrow down on one
specific piece that I think, asa listener, I hear this very
consistently in office hours,and so it's why I'm wanting to
narrow in on this, because Iknow that there's a lot of
people that are listening thatdeal with this.
You said who is my authenticself at this point in my life?

Right, and that acknowledgementthat that authentic who you
believe yourself to be, or whatgenuinely aligns with you, is
allowed to shift in your life, Ithink is a huge thing, and if
you're listening to this rightnow and you're in a place where
you're like, hey, very similarto what we've just been

discussing, I'm in between twoplaces.
Right, I feel attached to thisprevious version of me.
I see this future version of methat could come into existence
and I'm not really sure if theone that is currently here is
that one or the previous or amixture of both, and I think
that is a perfect way toarticulate somebody that needs a


Speaker 2 (14:36):
That is the perfect time to bring a coach into your
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean I work with a lot ofwomen who are getting promotions
, who deal with a lot ofimposter syndrome, and I mean I
try to help them understand toothat so much of the ways that
we've learned to lead arebecause of social conditioning
and systems that exist that arebigger than us, right, and so

it's not just about, like youknow, folks, we've done the same
thing over and over, so you canintellectually know like I want
to do something different, butwe might not actually know what
that even means, right, becausewe are so used to and we're
surrounded by one way of beingthat feels like it's the most
important way, and I like tohelp people understand that
there's a different way to be.

I mean, I had to, like when Iwould talk earlier about
unlearning perfectionism, likethe way that that showed up for
me and the way that that showedup in terms of my ways of being,
like it just wasn'tauthentically aligned with who I
was as a person anymore, but itwas how I learned that leaders
had to be or I thought leadershad to be to be successful, and
so I had to rethink that and,yeah, it was an incredible

process and a really likeliberating process and something
I'm still working through as abusiness owner.
Now you know.

Speaker 1 (15:49):
Yeah, I think it's something like whether it's
imposter syndrome or it'sunwiring perfectionism or you
know it's any of those thingsthat were conditioned over a
long period of time.
You know that initial cominginto awareness of that thing is
one thing, but then the processI mean more and more research
coming out right that the brainis a lot more plastic than we

thought it was and.
I say plastic for those of youthat aren't familiar with the
term neuroplasticity or the ideaof the brain being able to
rewire itself.
When I say plastic, I don'tmean, like you know, synonymous
to rubber.
I mean it is capable ofrewiring itself or growing new
connections and re.
The biology is actually capableof changing.

So you're absolutely right.
Intellectually, you might knowthat you need to do something
different, but your brain hasthese super highways that work
way faster than your consciousmind.
Exactly, exactly, and if youdon't know how to kind of
approach those, that can be alittle bit of an uphill climb.

Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yeah, totally, and you know you mentioned biology.
Like with some of my clients,we go way back to try to
understand why their responsesto when they get triggered are a
certain way.
And for some people it's likewhen you know we talk about
their youth or theirinteractions with a certain
person and you know, and then werepeat these things over and
over and so, yeah, but I lovewhat you said about rewiring.

I believe really deeply thateveryone has the power to grow
and I work really well withpeople that are, like, obsessed
with that concept and want tolearn and grow and change and
practice being different intheir work.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
That's another man.
You just drag-dropped andnugged after nugget, practicing
a different way of being.
I think that's another really,really great way to phrase that
that it is a practice, rightLike it's like a yoga practice
or practicing martial arts orany of those other types of
It's not okay.

I'm in this mind state now.
I'm done.

Speaker 2 (17:50):
Exactly exactly, and so I'm.
I think people that when theysee my writing and they go to my
website, I try to convey thatthere's a lot of nuance and that
I am somebody who is stillpracticing these things and some
days I'm better at it thanothers and it's about moving
closer and closer to being anintegrity.

So, yeah, that's a little bitof the coaching philosophy and I
apply that to my.
I mean, I also have consultingwork that I do, but that's very
like facilitative and coachingoriented.
So I would say like it's abouthelping teams and solve problems
, and I apply a lot of the exactsame tools to that work as well


Speaker 1 (18:36):
Right, gotcha, gotcha .
I'm curious about the way thatyou've produtized your coaching,
but before, or like thedifferent, like services that
you offer and kind of divinginto more of that minutiae's,
but before we get into thatheadspace, you mentioned a
little bit earlier in theconversation about how coaching

really allows you to step intoyour superpower.
In a sense, I'm curious what isthat superpower for you or how
did you discover it?
Yeah yeah, now it's manifestingin your coaching practice.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think as a human, I think I
have a couple of things and Ithink, like I'm very left brain,
right brain, like my mom is anartist, my dad is a doctor, so
we were sort of like raised tobe very artistic and also very

analytical, and so I think Ireally I think my superpower is
sort of marrying those twothings in a lot of ways.
So that's really helpful toleaders, right, because folks
have to be able to do strategicthinking, see patterns, and I
think I can do that really well.
But I think, beneath all that,it's about empathy and
connecting with folks.

So I was one of the a funnystory is that and I was an
So like I did that really wellwith students, I would say it
just wasn't my focus.
Like, over the years I was veryfocused on like I thought of
myself as someone who just likehits goals because I work hard
and I just like push, push, push, push, push and I'm willing to

do the extra mile.
Right, that was my like, maybe,yes, but that was my like
perfectionism and my likeachievement orientation speaking
, okay, yes, but I'm also, Iwould say, like a deep, a deeply
empathetic person who justreally gets people and is able

to quickly kind of meet somebody, understand where they're
coming from, understand patternsof behavior really quickly,
deeply intuitive, and I didn'treally appreciate that fully
until maybe 10 or so years ago.
I started to read tarot cards,which was just like a fun thing

to do with my sister-in-law.
She invited me into it.
For those of you I'll just likesay really briefly, it's not
telling the future, it'sbasically using like a pack of
The way I think of it is, thereare symbols and different ways
of speaking about the humanexperience and the range of
human experiences we can have ina deck of cards, right, and so

when you read them you're justusing that to get more insight
in something you might alreadyknow.
So I read tarot cards at aparty, a big, huge, crazy party
and I remember I had like 30 or40 conversations, like five
minute conversations, like backto back to back to back to back,
and it was amazing how Istarted to A, see patterns
across all those conversations,but B, like the ability to drop

in quickly and really get to theheart of something with someone
I felt so like.
I felt high afterwards, like ona high, and I was like this is
what I meant to do, right, tosee people, to hold space to
help them get clarity on a thingthat they can't see for

themselves, and to be thatperson.
I'm not gonna be a tarot cardreader, that's probably not.
I mean for my job, although Ihave like played around with
I would like to make thatlittle sub offering on another
website maybe.
But I realized like, oh wow,I'm really good at this, like

connecting with people andhelping to leverage like their
own intuition to move forwardand get clarity.
So, yeah, that's a little bitof that, and I think I was just
always in jobs where I had likea really high pressure
environment where that part ofmyself was not what got to be
And so now that I'm moving intothis different type of work, I

get to re-center on thatsuperpower, which is great.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Right, right.
I think it's beautiful,regardless of the vessel that is
used to spark those deepconversations, whether it's a
list of CBT style questions orit's tarot cards, or it's being
inside of the coaching frameworkand having a way of getting to

the root.
It is a superpower or a talentto be able to drop into a
situation that is noisy, and notjust mentally quite literally,
a party is actually noisy.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
It was very noisy.
That's why I stopped going inthe end.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
Actually, I was like I'm losing my voice every time.
To be able to be inside of thatscenario and, through all of
the chaos, be able to okay,we're here, me and you.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
We're in that space, that is such a beautiful gift.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, thank you, and I think that's what I help
executives do, becauseexecutives are facing a lot of
noise so many differentstakeholders, so much high
expectations, so much noise fromtheir own brain around what it
looks like it means to besuccessful and they have to
answer to all these differentpeople and they lose sight of
what their intuition is saying,and so I get to hold space for

them to get clarity on that andmove forward with courage and
trust themselves that if theyget it wrong, it's gonna be okay
, right?
So for each person, we sort ofidentify the voices in their
head that are kind of creatinglimiting beliefs, or we call
them saboteurs, right.
And then how to identify thosethings over time and kind of

tear them down and then buildback up.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
Right, right.
Have you noticed that thatpattern detection and space
holding superpower manifestsoutside of just people?
Like, is it the same way whenyou look at data and other stuff
like that that you're able?
To kind of piece together theseamorphous pieces of data into a

Speaker 2 (24:49):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I do definitely, and have hadto do that in so many of my
professional roles, and I thinkI can also look at qualitative
So a lot of what I sometimeshelp leadership teams do is work
through change management,whether on their own team or in

their organizations.
So I helped an organization,for example their leadership
They had just done this bigstrategic plan.
So tons of data, tons ofinformation, but they didn't
know how to move it forward.
They didn't have, they justdidn't have, and they didn't
have clear messages on what anyof it meant.
And so, boiling all of thatinformation down, what they came

up with in the strategic planbut then I also went and talked
to people across theorganization and heard what they
were feeling about the plan andwas able to kind of like take
both of those things, smush themtogether and help them identify
a clear set of messages thatnot they weren't just gonna say,
but like that they reallybelieved in and could stand
behind around what this plan andwhat this next phase of the

organization even was.
And so that's one form oftaking like qualitative and
quantitative data together andputting it forward into
something that's like a movement.
I also do a lot of like I likethat.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, yeah, turning a plan into a movement.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, I mean I think you know a plan is like it's not
inspiring, it's not gonnainspire change, it's not
I do what I try to really helppeople do is connect, like the
human and the humanity and theemotion of a thing alongside the
data and the actual strategy ofa thing, and marry those two
things together into somethingbetter.

So I definitely think, likepattern recognition, I do a lot
of like 360s for folks, forteams and also for individuals,
and that's another way of sortof seeing patterns.
It's like okay, all of thesepeople are saying these things,
creating like leveling that upinto themes.
I don't use like pre-created360 tools necessarily.

I like to just ask lots ofquestions and then see patterns
across what I'm hearing fromfolks and then bring that to
people, because those tools havea lot of biases and some of
them are great, but I just Ifind there's like conversations
to be really useful and so, yeah, pulling out what you hear and
putting that forward and makingsense of it is key.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
I think this is actually perfect.
I went on the little rabbithole that like really satisfied
my curiosity, and now we'reright back to talking about the
products and the services youoffer as coaches.
So thank you for like doing myjob for me, as the host, that
was perfect.
So that is the next place that Iwanted to go, which was are

there things that you're doingright now as a coach that, like,
are really exciting to you, ornew products or service
offerings that you're puttingout into the world that you're
This is something that I'mexcited to be working on.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, totally, that's a great question.
So coaching has always been theeasiest thing for me to
productize, because it's justlike you sell a package right
and so, like when I talk to aperson, we come up with a set of
objectives specific to theirneeds.
They're usually I mean, this isanother pattern recognition
thing but they're usually youknow, there's like 20 different

objectives that I would say Ipick and choose from that are
almost always the same for thefolks that are coming to me, and
so we do that, and then theprocess is sort of the product
but it's like okay, it's gonnabe this many sessions, it's
gonna be this much of aninvestment, but I'm looking for
other ways to productize some ofmy other work.
One of the things that I'mreally excited about is I just

launched a tandem coachingpackage or program, that's,
coaching pairs of leaders.
Last year one of my most funengagements I had was with a
coaching client who at the endof our time together, she was
like hey, can you come work withme and my boss, I'm taking over
for her and from thisorganization she's the founder.

There's a lot of dynamics there.
Can you come help us workthrough that and figure out our
transition and I was like sure Idon't know what that means, but
I know I can do it and Icreated basically a sort of
scope and sequence for them offive sessions where we dug into
really their relationshipdynamics, kind of named some
We went into visioning a newvision together of kind of what

they wanted to be true and gotaligned and then we talked about
how to operationalize it overthe course of our time together.
It was so successful that Irealized and I'm actually doing
it again now with a differentpair, different set of issues,
but same sort of general scopeand sequence and I was like,
okay, this is what they meant inthe IndieCollective by Product

I'm gonna put this out there,this tandem coaching, and I
don't really see it being doneas much out there.
There's a lot of independentcoaching.
I also do team coaching.
There's a lot of that out thereas well, but this sort of like
working through with a co-leaderpiece.
We just don't spend as muchtime on our most critical
working relationships and yet wedo the work through
It's the most important thingwe can do.

So I put it together and put itout there and that's been
really, really cool and I feelreally excited about working
with folks in relationship withothers to help them increase
their impact.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
And so, as a lot of the types of clients that you're
picturing engaging with, is itthose leaders that are in
transition, kind of passingsomething onto a new leader?
Is it a really close set ofco-founders that are trying to
figure out how to navigate theCEO-COO relationship?
Is it?

What are?
What situations?
Are those pairs of peopletypically in?

Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah, I mean right now, it's all of the above right
, I would say it's well,everybody you mentioned right,
like I love the succession ideaand I also think, like generally
, folks that work really closelytogether, that are responsible

for a shared set of goals, thatare generally on the same, like
same or very close levels ofleadership, because I think
there's a lot of really intensepower dynamics that can come up
when you have a leader and adirector port, and so those
situations I think that cantotally work for this kind of
It requires something different.
What I've noticed from the twopairs I've done this with so far

is that they are really reallylike love each other, have
worked together a long time,have some really calcified
dynamics and then are at thispoint of where the relationship
has to change, and so I thinkit's really less about, like,
the demographic and more aboutthe psychographic.
They're like in this momenttogether and then they're
realizing again like what got ushere is not going to get us

where we want to go.
Right, right, what we weredoing for a while worked and now
shit's changed and we need toactually change course and we're
stuck, and that is what reallyexcites me.
So I think that can definitelybe co-founders, because your
organization is changing a milea minute.
Every six months you have a newjob, right, and I know so many

co-founders who have parted, whowere friends in the beginning
and then parted ways not soamicable to you, right.
Yeah, you're raising your hand.
That is a lot of.
It is like they didn't have thesupport they needed to really
navigate what was coming up forthem and to really co-envision
what it could look like to worktogether successfully.
So that is really about thatinflection point.

I think Succession is a greatexample.
Or with the second pair I'mworking with.
Someone went on, leave and thencame back and things are
different, and the person thatshe's coming back to is like I'm
Now we have to re-navig,negotiate this whole
relationship Now that you'rereturning like things are not

the same, and so I love that.
Those moments are such awesome,exciting opportunities for

Speaker 1 (32:53):
I think yeah, yeah, I agree, agreed, and it's a.
It's a place where it can bevery pivotal in the, in the
future of the organization thehealth, the mental health of the
Individuals leading thatorganization.
So I love the idea of what acouple of different parts that
you've explained so far.
Right, the pattern detectionpiece.

I really enjoy holding spacefor people, but then also not
just holding space for each ofthose people individually, but
also holding space for therelationship which is almost
like a third person in theeffect.
Yes, and allowing them to kindof navigate that restructuring
of that third person.

Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yes, I mean, I think relationships it totally they
take on there.
They have their own dynamicsthat really require both people
playing into it, and so one ofmy favorite things to do is kind
of help people.
I mean, like I had this pairI'm working with now in our
first conversation they werejust talking, talking, talking.
I was like hang on, here's whatI see Happening right now, and
they just were both like floored.

They were like we've workedtogether 11 years and we've
never seen that before.
And so these dynamics, likethey just are in the background,
like running all the time, andwe have to bring attention to
them to see how they might behindering or helping us meet our

Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yeah, I love that.
I love that I Am gonna move onto the next section.
Even I feel like I could talkto you about this idea.
They this part for the entirerest of the podcast.
But Me too I so, having beenthrough this portion of the

journey, right and recognizingyour superpower, having taken,
having taken that superpower andplaced it into a business, and
now being in the tinkering phaseand and having clients and
finding success, but thenbuilding new things and putting
it out I mean it sounds likewhat you know when I was the

person outside of Indy have notstarted a business yet.
This type of podcast would giveme hope.

Speaker 2 (34:57):

Speaker 1 (34:59):
Like, okay, I can make it there.
I can make it to the pointwhere this type of stuff is
happening and like now myproblems are how do I scale and
how do I get better at it, nothow do I start from the ground
Um, if, if you had a friend orlike a close, you know Person in
your network that wanted tokind of jump into this or that,
are there pieces of advice thatIf you were to rewind a couple

of years, that you'd be likethis is absolutely something
that you need to have?
Or or somebody gave me thispiece of advice when I first
It was transformational for me.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, totally, and I think it's so funny I, when I
was, when I first heard of myexecutive director job, I was
responsible for like Basicallytaking a national nonprofit
model and like building it fromthe ground up here in the Bay
Area and I remember I used tojust like drive around in my car
like feeling dejected a lot ofthe times.
I would get a lot of nose fromlike funders, from partners,

from all the things, and I willlisten to how I built this by
Guy Ross and I would be like Imean these are like you know,
air B&B, like all you know, allof these like crazy companies.
But it would just help me torealize like it's a shit show in
the beginning and it definitelyis supposed to be like that and
you can still Make progresseven when it's a shit show.

And I will say like my firstand Indic collective cohort felt
like a shit show for me.
I was like doing the work,getting the clients.
I was so overwhelmed.
Those firehose and I was likeall of my like Shadows were
coming out of the closet.
It was like I was like, oh mygod, I have to go.
Everything, I had to doeverything.
I have to get it perfect, Ihave to get it right, and so,
like, the biggest thing I wouldsay is like you don't.

I had a very successful firstyear without doing like a lot of
the things that I would likeIndic collective was saying to
do, but it did help me thinkdifferently and put bugs in my
ear that have changed the waythat I've done things later.
So my it's like trust yourselfand know that you will integrate
the things over time and youcan get started, even if it

feels like a shit show.
So I and I remember my coachwas like I'm gonna push you out
of the nest, go.
And she just like was like youstop, you know.
Like she's like a website's notgonna save you.
Don't make a website.
I did make a website and Istill would do that again, but I
think I do think there's anelement of just like trusting
the process right, and my mycoach told me to be of service

and that was really huge.
She was like go, like Behelpful to people, like that's
what you want to do.
And so I remember when I firststarted out, I kind of offered
free coaching sessions to folks.
I was like and I basically sentit to a bunch of connectors I
know and I said, hey, like, ifyou know someone who wants a
free coaching session, like I'mhere and it was great.

I got to practice, I got totest some things, I got some
clients and I really did intendto just be of service in that
space, and so I definitely thinkthat's huge and and it's
something that I that I still dowhen I can it's like, how do I
create value?
And it doesn't always have to besomething that someone's paying

me for, that that comes later.
Like I'm a relationship builderfirst and foremost and I want
to be of service to others.
I've gotten a lot of like greatvalue from some of the indie
collective presenters.
I go to their free webinars, Ido all their free stuff and then
for some of them, I end up thenlike paying for it on the line,
but that that was key.
And Then I think, like for me,whenever I've been in a mode of,

like you know, creatingsomething that I love, that I
believe in, I've always feltmore empowered and more in a
place of abundance.
Then, when I start to try to dosomething, that actually just
doesn't feel authentic to me.
That may seem obvious, butyou'll if you're in indie

collective or if you're goingdown this path, you're gonna get
a lot.
There's gonna be a lot of noiseand you're gonna have to slow
down and come back to like, whatdo?
What's like a thing that I love,and I think for a lot of people
it's the thing that they neededat the time when they didn't
have it.
So create that, if nothing else, right, and put that out there.

Some people might take you upon it, some people might not,
but but whenever I'm Struggling,I go back to that place and I
write the things that I need tohear.
I create the things that I wishI'd had.
I say the things that I wishsomeone had said to me, and that
is the place from which I feelthe most abundance and connected

both to myself and to othersthat I'm talking to, and so
those are a couple of of pieces,are really more mindset things.
Then, like tactical advice.
I got some of that too, butless of that I still go to, like
the webinars.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
When you're in those early stages, though, I think
that the mindset advice istactical in some sense, because
you're, you're, there's so muchnoise, there's so many things
going on that even tellingsomebody, hey, hey, I
acknowledge the fact that you'rebeing hit with a fire hose.

Speaker 2 (40:13):

Speaker 1 (40:13):
That's okay.
You know, the majority ofpeople feel that I have that
conversation inside of officehours all the time and then
giving people permission to slowdown before they speed up,

Speaker 2 (40:23):

Speaker 1 (40:24):
You know, we don't need to constantly be just like
oh, I'm improving, I'm improving, I'm improving, I'm improving,
I'm improving.
There's days where you're goingto make the most progress by
doing absolutely nothing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and releasingthat and kind of acknowledging
that piece.
So I think that those keysright there just Even even if,

if nothing more, be of service,even when your life is a shit

Speaker 2 (40:50):
Totally, totally, even if it's being of service to
yourself, right, like,sometimes the thing that I need
to do the most is like I need togo just like Meditate or
exercise or read like and for me, I do a lot of processing via
writing and I find that that'slike a great because it helps me
process and usually thosepieces end up becoming something
that helps other people.
I had a client once tell melike oh my God, I read your blog

and I felt so, seen exactlywhat I had experienced with my
own coach when I read her blog,and so those are the best for me
So I'm like I'm writing formyself and I'm putting it out
there for others and so, likethat is my practice that I come
back to when I feel overwhelmedor stuck.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
Yeah, yeah, I love that.
I love that.
Well, we're coming up to theend of our time here together,
which does not feel feasiblebecause it's been fast, yeah,
it's been quick.
I can always tell when, like,there's been a really solid
podcast, when I like teleportand I'm like, oh, we're starting
, pam, we're ending.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
So I always like to end these shows with a question
that you know kind of dives intosome tactical resources and
things of that nature, and itdoesn't have to be, you know
anything business related, itdoesn't have to be like a
self-help book or anything likethat.
But I'm always curious whetherpeople consider themselves
readers, watchers or listeners.

So you know books, YouTubechannels or podcasts and then if
, depending on which one, youkind of feel like you fall into,
is there a book, a YouTubechannel or a podcast that you
would recommend that you findinteresting, brings light into
your life?

Speaker 2 (42:29):
Yeah, oh my gosh, it's so funny.
You told me you were going toanswer this question and it's
like or ask this question, and Iwas like, think about it.
Think about it, becausewhenever I get asked this
question on the spot, I'm alwayslike, ah, I consume like an
absurd amount of podcasts andbooks.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
I'm with you Like too many.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
And then I freeze.
So when I get asked thisquestion but I will say, and I
mean this is going to be likeeveryone's going to have read
So I don't think it'snecessarily like the cool kind
of off, like like, oh, I'd neverheard of that moment.
But for me, dare to lead wasboth so I'm a reader and a
Dare to lead was huge and Istill really love um Bernay

Brown's podcasts.
I think they're just helpful.
She has, like reallyinteresting guests on that talk
a lot about um, just this idea,this like doing the work from a
human and heart centeredperspective.
So I love.
So when I read Dare to lead, Ijust saw myself in it.
I saw myself in it in so manyways and so I loved that and I

love her podcast as well.
And the other person that Ilove is Adrienne Marie Brown.
She wrote Emergent Strategy,which was a huge helpful text to
like rethink the way that wethink about strategy and about
and it's really the epitome oflike how do we do things in a
different way, and she reallybreaks down what it looks like
to do things differently andshe's just an incredible um

person and and and and teacher.
So those are a couple ofexamples of folks that I that I
love to listen to, I love that Ialways I, um, I also make huge
Bernay Brown fan um listen toher podcast pretty frequently.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
Her and Adam Grant yeah, he's for two.
There's a reason for that.

Speaker 2 (44:20):
Yeah, he's for two.
There's a reason why they're solike popular.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
It's like they're seeing people Just to come out
with a new book I'm excited forhe's about to be releasing a new

Speaker 2 (44:30):
Um, so I'm excited for that to come out and give
that a read.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Um well, so, hey, thanks for taking the time to
come and hang out.
I know that all of us are superbusy, so this has been a lot of
fun, Um of course.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
Thank you for having me so much.
It was really fun.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
Yeah and um, if anybody wants to try to get in
touch with you, where is a goodplace?
Do you have a website?
Um, where can people find youon the internet?

Speaker 2 (44:56):
Yeah, people can find me on my website, which is
liaisenbergcom, um, and I don'tknow if I should spell it or if

Speaker 1 (45:06):
I can put the link in the chat.

Speaker 2 (45:07):
You're going to put it Okay If you're listening to
this, go, go into the showdescription and you'll find it
Okay, great To this websiteliaisenbergcom.
Um, you can also find me onLinkedIn, but, um, but yeah, my
website is great.
There's a contact form there aswell, or it's not too hard to
find my email, which is justliaisenbergcom, and I love to
have conversations with allkinds of people, so please reach
Um, it'd be great to justconnect and learn more about

what you're up to.
And, um, yeah, e andrelationship together.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Love it.
And then, if you're listeningto this and um, indie Collective
is something that you've beenthinking about and this episode,
for whatever reason, is the onethat pushed you over the edge
to want to talk to more and comeand hang out.
You can reach out to me Janlooks like Jan, jan at Indie
Collectiveio or you can find uson LinkedIn Indie Collective on

LinkedIn, um, or my personalLinkedIn is a great way to reach
out to us as well.
Um, same same idea.
I'm not.
I don't just host office hoursfor people inside of the
If you need a half hour causeyou're a freelancer, that's like
really trying to figure out howto take themselves to the next
level and you don't know whichway to go Um, feel free to
message me and I would be downto sit down and have a

conversation about that.
So, um, until next time.
This has been another episodeof the moderate independent here
at Indie Collective.
I hope you have an amazing restof your week.
Talk to you soon.
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