S2 E1 Montessori through the four planes of development

Episode Transcript
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(00:11):
Hi everyone, Simone Davies herend welcome back to the
ontessori podcast. I'melighted to be back with you
or season two. And this season.
look forward to sharing moref those long phone
onversations with Montessoriarents and educators around the
orld about how they applyontessori in their life to
nspire you to bring moreontessori into your home. Today
e'll be talking with Nusaibahrom Rumi Montessori. I know

(00:33):
ou're going to love thisonversation, as you'll hear her
alk about her experienceaising her son who's nearly 17,
ith Montessori all the way fromirth and how each stage builds
n the next. It's reallyascinating. And she also talks
bout setting up a trilingualontessori School raising an
utistic child with Montessori,hat is Islamic Montessori and
ow she's been able to practiceontessori in different cultures

(00:55):
ecause she's moved from the UKo Malaysia, where her husband's
rom, and just so much more. Butefore we get into the
onversation, I always love toave a quick chat about
omething that I've beenhinking about lately. And
erhaps it's because we've beeniving through a pandemic the
ast year, and parents areeeding to be even more involved
n this like educationalrocess. But I think there's
ever been a better time to talkbout applying Montessori

(01:17):
rinciples as an adult. I mean,ow can we apply the same
rinciples were applying to ourhildren to ourselves. So the
irst thing I thought of isrust in ourselves and in the
orld around us. From birth, forxample, in Montessori, we're
howing our baby how to buildrust in themselves and that
hey're capable. And byesponding to them, we're also
llowing them to build trust ins and the world around them.

(01:38):
nd how many of us can say theame about ourselves that we
ike ourselves that we seeurselves as capable, that we've
een kind to ourselves. And I'murious, you know, to start this
onversation about how we canebuild that trust in ourselves
nd others and the world arounds. And then we usually talk
bout the child in society inontessori. And I was kind of

(01:59):
urious of this idea of thedult in society. So how can we
e our unique selves, andespect others in the world as
ell? So yes, Montessori isbout independence, but
ndependent so we can serve inur community and in the country
e live in or the world atarge. So what would that maybe
ook like? Or how can we meetur needs, and be in community

(02:21):
ith others? And then we oftenalk in what sorry about showing
espect to the child, especiallyow we talked with them. And as
dults, do, we show the sameespect when we talk to our
artners or our families, how wealk about other people on the
treet, or the person on thehone, who kept us waiting. And
eally, our children areatching us all the time. So it
oesn't hurt for theirbenefit for us to show respect

(02:45):
to others in our lives as well.
We talk also about allowing allfeelings, but not all behavior
with children. And we allow themthen when we've been practicing
Montessori for a while for themto really feel their feelings,
support them. And then if theyneed to, they can make amends

(03:06):
and that kind of thing. And so Iwonder when something triggers
us, rather than brushing itaway, like, Oh, I shouldn't feel
upset about that. Can we alsomaybe feel that deeply, like a
toddler having a tantrum? Andthen we can see later? Why it's
triggering us? Is theresomething maybe we need to work
on? If I'm triggered by someonebeing late or not showing up for
an appointment? What work do Ineed to do on myself? Like, was

(03:29):
I clear that this was important?
Or if it wasn't actually thatimportant? Am I holding on to
control too tight, I don't know.
There's always a discovery theresomething to think about. And
then learning from mistakes. Imean, children would work do
well to see us make mistakes,and admit when we got it wrong,
particularly when we get alongwith them. And we don't lose
face when we apologize, werebeing a model for our children,

(03:51):
like saying what I should havesaid is bla bla bla, or what I
should have done is and youknow, we can actually do it
over. And so it not only helpsit to make it up to the other
person, but it means that we canalso let go of the guilt around
it too. And it doesn't build upuntil we explode, saying how
ungrateful everybody is. Ilistened to an interview with a
spiritual teacher once who saidin her relationship, the key to

(04:14):
their happiness had been toaddress all the little things
that bothered them, rather thanletting them build up. And then
in Montessori, could we asMontessori adult, be a lifelong
learner? Do our children see uscontinuing to learn? What are
our passions? And just as wefollow the child, could we
perhaps start to follow ourinterests as well? Sometimes we

(04:36):
overlook ourselves and we wantto be lifelong learners to get
so much joy out of this. Andwhen I think about being a
Montessori adult, as well, Ithink about exploring our
identity now intersectionalityall the parts that make up
ourselves. So we can start tosee where our privileges are and
our biases. And in the pastyear, I've seen how much
unlearning there is to do. Imean, what the dominant culture

(04:57):
says and if it's even trueAnd how we can create safe
spaces for everyone. It could bethe smallest questioning things
like if we put out that Easterthemed craft activity, is that
true for everyone? I mean, I'vedone that. And now I start to
think, Okay, well, how can Imake sure that every child who
came to my class could seethemselves represented in my
classroom?

(05:20):
What other celebrations arethere around spring, looking at
the children who are in myclass, and if I had an old white
classroom, what would be in mysociety, in my community around
me, and in the greater world, sothat we can start to start to
represent all children in ourspaces. And then lastly, amongst
every adult, could maybe allowtime to pause, to be in nature,

(05:44):
not over scheduling ourselves,having some quiet time to be
bored, not always like trying tofill in every moment at the
moment, like when you noticeyou're picking up your phone all
the time not to get bored.
Imagine how creative we couldbe. And indeed, our children are
also watching us and what we do.
So don't get me wrong. I'mdefinitely not perfect at any of
this. And it's not about beingperfect. But I do think that

(06:07):
it's worth thinking about howcan we continually prepare
ourselves, which will help usnot only apply Montessori with
that child, but looking atourselves as a monitoring adult.
We don't just become an adultand stop learning. We're like a
work in progress. So maybe it'ssomething to think about in your
homes too. And I'm curious ifthat resonates for any of you.

(06:27):
Okay, enough for me. For now.
It's time for my conversationwith nusseibeh from Rumi
Montessori. And I'll be backafter the conversation to answer
a listener question. I hope youenjoy the conversation as much
as I did.
Hi, everyone, Simone here andI'm really delighted to get to

(06:48):
introduce you today from RumiMontessori. Nusaibah and I she's
calling in from Malaysia grew upin the UK, a Montessori child
herself and now spreadingMontessori around the world with
not only her own child andfamily, but you set up as school
in the UK and now in Malaysia.
So welcome to the podcast. Thankyou so much for having me. This
is gonna be such a lovelyconversation. Just before we hit

(07:12):
record, we were saying that wefelt I felt like we were on
parallel journeys because I'vebeen raising my own children. I
became a Montessori parent in2002. And my children are 20 and
19. And Nusaibah is also beingon a similar journey. But also
being a Montessori child, she'sbringing some other things to
the table. And so I can't waitto get to share all your wisdom

(07:33):
experience with everyone today.
So let's get straight into it. Ilike to maybe start today with
What does Montessori mean toyou? Maybe today? I think if I
asked that question, I wouldprobably answer it differently
every day. But today what'scoming up for you what
Montessori means to you. It'sreally funny actually, that you
asked this now because just like10 minutes ago, I was lying on

(07:56):
my bed and I was just thinking,what what am I doing? And I
said, this is service, you know,Montessori is serving the child,
like, what Montessori is, is istruly taking on this idea of
serving the child in the waythat is according to their
nature and according to how theywill naturally grow and develop.
So it's not imposing yourself onthe child are imposing some pre

(08:20):
conceived idea whether it's aneducational idea or a parenting
idea, but it's actually steppingback from all that you know, and
then being present with thechild so that you can actually
serve the child. And that's kindof what came through my mind
today is like, you know,remember that all what I'm doing
is for the service of the child,I mean, that's really powerful,

(08:41):
isn't it? Because I think intraditional parenting,
traditional education, it'susually the adult who knows all
the information, and we're meantto impart it onto the child. And
I think it takes a lot of trustto let go like, Oh, this child
actually naturally wants tolearn. If I'm in service of the
child, does that mean that theycan do whatever they want? Do
you get those kind of questionscoming up, like with parents
around the world? Yeah. Because,you know, I lived in England, I

(09:05):
live in Malaysia now. And it's aglobal thing that, you know, as
adults, we, we feel that maybewe are supposed to impart our
knowledge on the child or thatwe are supposed to lead the
child or that we are in a waysuperior to the child. So we,
you know, like, we're constantlytrying to give the child from
what we have, but then weactually miss what is really

(09:26):
happening, which is that thechild by nature has this
abundance of curiosity, and theywant to learn everything, you
know, they are incrediblycurious. They want to learn
everything and our you know, wedon't actually have to pull them
along or lead them somewhere.
They are actually capable ofleading us and not just leading
us for their own learning anddevelopment, but also leading us

(09:47):
so that we can change to be abetter version of ourselves as
well. So it's like, you know,that whole concept of parenting
and teaching is like flipped onits head, you know, rather than
it being you know,Don't focused as the adult as
the, you know, the one who'scompleted their childhoods. And
now we can take these childrenthrough childhood, but actually,
it's the child now who's goingto take us through life, and

(10:08):
show us a different meaning.
And, you know, over the years ofbeing a Montessori educator and
working with different childrenin you know, different
countries, and then it's justlike, it's just so obvious that
that's what our role is, whetherit is as a parent, or as an
educator, or even if it's justsomebody who's, you know, a

(10:29):
grandparent, or someone who'sjust facilitating in any way,
our role is really to serve thechild so that they can go
through the stages and, youknow, complete their development
and create themselves, which isactually what children are doing
create themselves. And our roleis to be there to serve them.
And you know, it, when you thinkof it like that, you're just

(10:49):
like, wow, it's a totallydifferent perspective, from, you
know, what is happening allaround us. And people do say to
me, does that mean, we justleave children to do what they
want to do? Or does that meanhand and foot on the child. And
again, you know, that idea ofserve in the Montessori for, you
know, the monster concept is, isvery different. It's not serving
as in you do everything for thechild, but it's as in serving us

(11:11):
in stepping back, and thenwatching and waiting, and only
giving the exact amount that achild needs so that they can be
successful themselves. Not thatwe do it for them, you know, so
it's not waiting hands and footon the child. It's like, just
just being that and observingand being aware and ready that
when they do need something fromyou, you can give them just the

(11:34):
right portion, and then stepaway, and allow that development
to continue on its own naturalrhythm. Yeah. Do you think that
you could give some examples,like maybe what that would look
like for a young child? Becausemaybe for people who are new to
Montessori, they might think, Idon't know what service would
mean, maybe to a newborn or tolike a toddler, and that kind of

(11:56):
thing? Yeah, like, I probablygive lots of examples. As a mom,
I know, I've been working withloads of children, but you know,
I think it's the parents andexamples that like, you know,
like, you know, how, you know,this is such a huge impact on
us. And I think it's thingslike, you know, like, I
remember, like, with my son,when he was really young, like
saying, the first paymentdevelopment, you know, something

(12:17):
as simple as maybe like, youknow, trying to open a bottle
lid, or, you know, like we seeyou know, every parent or see
the child go through the stagewhere they're trying to open and
close things. And that, youknow, it's just like observing
that and not going there andopening it for them if they're
struggling, but keeping that inmind that you know what, that my
child is really interested inthis. So let me serve them by

(12:39):
providing them bottles that theycan open or close safely.
don't contain detergent, orwhatever it may be that you're
putting something that thatfollows what that child is
trying to accomplish. And you'reserving them by giving them what
they they need to they can besuccessful at it, but you're not
doing it for them. So I'm notopening the lid for him, I'm

(13:01):
just serving Him by puttingthings there. So he went through
this stage where he would justany bottle he saw, he would just
want to unscrew it. So then, youknow, looking at that, and
observing that and then givinghim them. And as I see that his
ability to open them, you know,get to better than giving him
once a little bit morechallenging, so that he just
putting them in his environment.
You know, I don't even have tosay, hey, look, I've got these

(13:22):
bottles for you know, it's justput them in the environment, and
then he's able to then, youknow, explore it himself. So
then it's not my discovery. It'shis discovery, you know. And I
think that when you serve thechild, that's what you're doing
is you're not robbing the childfrom their experiences of making
their own discoveries, you'rejust giving them what they need,
leaving them up to that point,but they always do the learning

(13:43):
themselves, they always make thecreation themselves or, you
know, they always have thatdiscovery that it's their own
experience. Yeah. And, ofcourse, like, as through the
planes, I mean, so many, youknow, so many examples, even now
as an adolescence, you know,like, you know, allowing him the
space to discover who he is andwhat he wants to do. So he's 17

(14:04):
in a few weeks, and then, youknow, instead of me like leading
him down the line, and kind of,you know,
guiding him towards somethingthat I think he might like,
instead, it's like, having theenvironment ready so that he can
experience and see differentthings. And then he can then

(14:27):
follow his own interest and showme what he wants, you know, and
that all comes from being ableto step back and observe and
come from a place of humilityand serving, serving rather than
leading and directing. And whatdo you think is given you such
trust that this is enough forthem, you know, that they're
still going to develop to theirfull potential? Is it because

(14:49):
you are a Montessori child, doyou think, or do you think it's
because you see it unfolding andyou see it's working? Definitely
being a Montessori child has hadlike such a huge impact on me,
and I really believe that I'mI am who I am today because of
the experiences that I had in myMontessori classroom. And the
voice that, you know, talks tome in my mind, like we all have
voices is a voice that's beenshaped by the direct trust or
the, you know, the monitoringguide that was there in my

(15:11):
classroom that was guiding meand make, you know, seeing that
I could do everything that Iwanted to, you know, like, you
know, so I know that I have beenshaped by that. And that has
given me a lot of trust in theMontessori method, because I
know the impact it's having onme. And later on in my, you
know, schooling years, when Iwas older, I did go into private
mainstream school, and I couldstraightaway see a huge

(15:34):
difference. I can see, like, youknow, like, you know, the first
thing that, you know, struck mewas, Why do these teachers not
know who I am. So when you comefrom a Montessori environment,
the teacher knows you as anindividual, they know your
strengths, they know what youneed to work on, they know how
to talk to you to, to exciteyou, or to inspire you. But you

(15:54):
know, when I went into amainstream environment, it's
like, they don't know who I am,what I'm capable of. So that was
one of the first things thatstruck me. So that has always
kind of sat with me, throughoutmy whole life, that experience
that I had, and I know thatthat's allowed me to have a lot
of trust in the Montessorimethod. But then also, you know,

(16:15):
having my own son from, youknow, I was a Montessori
teacher, before I had him. So,you know, being able to apply,
you know, you know, give himthat journey through Montessori
education. And at that time, youknow, like in 2000, to 2003, you
know, you can't find informationon the internet, right, there
aren't so many books, your bookwasn't available that you didn't

(16:36):
have that there weren't so manybooks, it was really hard to get
hold of, like, good, wholesomematerials, or, you know, even
like, you know, whatever it isthat we need is, it's more that
we applied the philosophy, weapplied the principles, you
know, it's not so much that wewent out and bought everything
or, you know, we're able to readso much, but it really took

(16:58):
those principles and apply them.
So having applied them to him,and seeing what he has taught
me, has, of course, given me somuch more trust in the method,
and, you know, seeing him ashe's gone through all his
stages, and now he's like, 17,he's coming to the end of the
third claim development. Andseeing that, and just thinking,

(17:20):
wow, you know, this, Dr.
Montessori, his work isphenomenal. You know, it's
phenomenal. And, you know, if wecan understand it, and we can
apply it, as parents, even ifit's in a very simplistic way,
you know, we will be having sucha profound impact on on the
child and not just the child, itwill impact humanity or have a
ripple effect on humanity. Yeah.

(17:42):
And I think that's when we'restarting to see it is when the
Montessori children become whatthree parents just as you are,
that is when we're going to behaving even more impact. I mean,
I didn't grow up withMontessori. So I want to
reassure parents who didn't growup that you can learn it, it
takes some practice to undo andunlearn some of the things that
we were told, you know, it'ssuch a natural thing to say, Oh,
look at this, this is yellow andwanting to teach and teach and

(18:04):
teach all the time, and do thatin a more curious way. But still
giving them a lot of input whenthey're young in the Zero to
Three, three, and three to sixage groups. Also, just a quick
revision. For those who don'tknow what the plains of
development are. We'll talkabout that a lot. I think today
in the interviews as we talkabout Noah's journey through the
plains of development. But justto say that Dr. Montessori

(18:25):
recognized there were fourplanes of development in
children with similarcharacteristics in children from
the ages of zero to six, six to1212, to 18, and 18, to 24,
recognizing that we're still achild, while our prefrontal
cortex is still developingthings that she couldn't have
known of, but they're now beingbacked up by science. So I
always find that reallybeautiful. So I think that the
next thing that I would love toask you about is like, do you

(18:48):
think how can you explain toparents that actually parenting
in a Montessori way is actuallyless work and more joy? And I
would actually even heard yousay that in your classroom, you
find it entertaining to be withthe children and not stressful?
Yeah, that's the thing is that,you know, like, it can appear
that being a Montessori guidecould be stressful, because

(19:09):
you've got, you know, thechildren are making their own
choices, and the children arelike, you know, you can't
predict what they're doing. Youdon't have control over what
they're doing. So it can like,appear to be challenging, like
to be a monster educator. Butactually, when you step away
from that idea of control, andyou see that actually, these
children are really capable, andyou trust them. It's like

(19:33):
watching a movie. It's likewatching the most thrilling
movie because you never knowwhat's gonna happen next. And
there's all these littleinteractions that you see
between the trading and there'sall these discoveries that they
make, and when you're able tolike experience it firsthand
with them. It's so fulfillingand it's so so beautiful. And I
think that even us as adults, wewe are, you know, beings that

(19:56):
are curious by nature and we arebeings that want to learn
We want to improve ourselves andwant to develop I don't think
that ever goes away from thehuman being. And when we in that
environment with children we'reliving with, with these, you
know, we in our livingenvironment with these small
beings,on a moment to moment, they are
improving themselves anddeveloping themselves and

(20:17):
fulfilling that curiosity thatthey have, and discovering new
things. And so, when you shiftyour mindset, and you know, even
though I am, I went toMontessori as a child, I was not
raised by Montessori inspiredparents can make that claim my
mom, she did amazing thing ofputting me in a Montessori
school, but it was, you know, anexperience I had at school, and

(20:40):
I had a completely differentexperience at home. So of
course, like, you know, thereare a lot of things that I had
to change that I would haveabsorbed or experienced as a
child that was not Montessori.
And then I had to kind of changethat. And even, you know, I
think that the change neverends, even till now, we're
always changing, and we'realways having to rethink the way

(21:01):
that we see things. And, youknow, like, when, when you're
with children, whether it's as aparent, or whether it's as an
educator, when you're withchildren, and you're in that
environment with them, if youcan switch your thinking from
being that you have to controlthem, or you have to leave them
or you have to direct them, andswitch that off. And just turn

(21:23):
it to be with them just be youknow, just just be in that
moment with the child, actually,you get this burst of useful,
exciting energy that comesthrough you, because that's what
the children are living on allthe time. That's who they are,
you know, they're completely inthe moment. And they're
completely one with theirenvironment, and they are

(21:46):
enjoying their environment andthe discoveries that they're
making. And that energy, whenyou tap into it, you yourself
feel like you are having themost enjoyable experience. So
even as a parent, we can do thatwe can just step back. And, you
know, be with the child, just bein the moment and watch them.
And not only will you enjoy it,but you will learn so many

(22:08):
things about yourself and aboutyour environment that will help
you to lift up to you know, amore enjoyable state of being
Yeah, I always say that monsteris actually a really joyful and
more relaxing way to parent. ButI think it's difficult for
parents, for example, who have achild who's throwing a tantrum
or a teenager who's you know,not feeling well, and having a

(22:30):
big outburst and things likethat. So, how do you keep calm
in these moments? How are youable to step back, even when
your child is having thisenormous explosion and having a
hard time with toddlers, for me,you know, a tantrum is always a
form of communication. And, youknow, when I see that in a
child, I actually, I, first ofall, I am struck with curiosity,

(22:55):
of what is the child trying tocommunicate. So that curiosity
that I have, straightaway helpsme to see that tantrum through a
different lens, rather thanseeing you know, that the child
is challenging me or the childis, you know, choosing, you
know, to be you know, somepeople might see it as choosing
to be difficult. Instead ofseeing it through that lens, I

(23:16):
see through what are they tryingto say, you know, what are they
trying to communicate to me. Andthe other thing is that when you
know, when these children aregoing through this, it's, it's,
you know, it's that thatcompassion, or that love that
comes up in you to know that,you know, this is part of their
journey to discovering who theyare and discovering what this

(23:36):
world is all about, even whenthey have a tantrum, they have
to go through all these things.
Life is not just you know, this,you know, there has to be these
moments. And those moments areoften the biggest life lessons
that help us to grow in manyways. So when you actually
embrace that moment in thatpositive direction, and know
that through that moment thatyour child is having a tantrum,
there can be an amazingbreakthrough that you can you

(23:58):
can have with the child, thatthey can have a breakthrough,
and you yourself could also havea breakthrough. I mean, for me,
you know, like, I do find thatI'll be very honest, I do find
that the adolescents,Tantra already touches, I do
find those a lot morechallenging.

(24:19):
And I probably find it morechallenging with with Noah
because he didn't really havetantrums when he was younger.
And I really believe that hedidn't have them because there
was always that opencommunication. And I was always
that searching for the root ofthe issue. So before it actually
escalated and became huge. We'realways looking at what the root
of the issue but once we came tothe teen years as an

(24:41):
adolescence, you know, it's nolonger you know, now he has to
start looking for himself.
So it's like, I have found Vizioas challenging. And then that's
one of the reasons why Iactually went to take
adolescence training. Because Iwas like, I want to understand
this stateBut I can also have that same
perspective as I have had withthe younger ages.

(25:07):
But I think that really justlike not taking it personally
and not taking it as a powerstruggle and not taking it as a
threat, even if even if itappears like the child has power
struggling in that moment. Youknow, it's like power struggling
with Well, there's no, there's,if you are not trying to have
power over the child, thenthere's no power struggle. It's

(25:28):
just being with the child beingwith the child and trying to
understand what is going on,what is the message that they're
trying to get through? andhelping them to find a way to
get that message through in a ina positive and constructive way?
Yeah, I love that. You mentionedthat it's not without struggle,
because it sounds like oh, whatdid I do like childhood, they

(25:48):
are allowed to do whatever theylike, but there's going to be
things that come against, sothey live in society, things
aren't always going to go theirway. Maybe they don't agree that
they, they want to stay up andit's really time for bed. And so
I guess that doesn't mean thatthey can do whatever they like
either, right? No, definitelynot. And I think that's, that's
maybe one thing that a lot ofpeople misunderstand about
Montessori is that they thinkthat, okay, being a Montessori

(26:09):
parent means let your child dowhatever they want, and follow
them. But actually, you know,monetary is very clear about
giving freedom within limits.
And we, you know, Montessoritells us that education is for
life, and we're preparing thechild for life. So, you know,
education has to always besomething that is going to build
the child, your way of parentinghas to be something that's going
to build a child towards reallife does that later on. So

(26:31):
there is always going to bethere are there will be
boundaries, and there will betimes that they experience
things that are difficult, andthey have to experience that
because it's through thosedifficult moments that the child
experiences things, or weexperienced them as adults, it's
through those difficult momentsthat we grow or that we become
wiser, become more sensitive tocertain things. So Montessori

(26:53):
always has that balance, we givefreedom within limits. And you
know, that it shows that thechild kind of grows up in a very
well rounded manner, so thatthey can participate in social
life, they can be a contributingmember of society. And they have
all of those characteristics. Ifyou look in a Montessori

(27:15):
classroom, you see so many timeswhere the elder children who
have been there for a while yousee so many times where they
will give out what they want forthe betterment of the
environment, or the bettermentof another child or to serve
somebody. Right. And that comesfrom a deep in a natural state
of a human being that we want todo what is right, not just for

(27:36):
ourselves, but for the societythat we're in. Right. And that
comes from giving freedomwithin, you know, limits giving
that that right freedom so thatthe child is able to develop,
have that inner discipline anddevelop those inner
characteristics that help themto be with others. So it's not
that the child can do anythingthat they want all the time.

(27:56):
Otherwise, you know, we won't beguiding them along that way.
It's just giving them the rightamount of freedom within the
writer out of of limits. And asa parent, I've always had clear
limits with my my son thingsabout like bedtime about, you
know, eating bedtime things thatwe have always had, like, clear
limits, but they're notenforced.

(28:20):
In they're not enforced in aharsh way. But they're enforced
with the understanding and theconversation at whichever level
that he's at enforced withthose, and with that kindness
and without love. And so theoutcome is that, you know, it,
they embrace it. So I can givean example. Yes, I was gonna

(28:42):
say, Can you give an example, Iwould love to see how that works
in practice. But one of thethings that I was really
concerned about when I had himwas about the impact of
screentime, on a, on a child'sdevelopment. And I did a lot of
reading.
I believe everyone's entitled totheir own opinion, and I respect

(29:04):
that, but for my own for my ownreading, and my own research, I
thought that it's, I really wantto give him the chance to be
himself without the influencethat will come from a screen. So
I was, you know, quite, youknow, we had like screen free.
First of all, I was like screenfree until two. And then we got
to two and I was like, Well, whydon't we do it to like, select

(29:26):
four, and then we've gotdefault. And I said, well, let's
do screen free until he's six.
And he was totally fine with itbecause instead of having a
screen he had lots of differentthings that he could work with,
you know, things like a marbleRon, or like, you know, things
that had cogs he had all thislike constructive, you know,
toys or games that he could workwith at home. And he also had

(29:46):
lots of time to be bored, whichI think is really, really
important. And often nowadays,children when they're bored,
they go to the screen and theydon't get that opportunity to be
to be bored and you know, inboard leads to be creative. So
he was a very, veryA creative child. So I thought
let's, you know, let's waituntil he's six. And then when he
was six years old, I thought,well, we've got this far, you
know, why don't we just see howfar we can go. So, you know, we

(30:09):
maintain this kind of screenfree life until he was about 12.
And which was huge, becauseeverywhere around this, the
screens, you know, of course,sometimes he'd go to his
cousin's house, and he'd see thescreen or, you know, and what
something like, the rareoccasion, but it wasn't like
regular. And I remember thatwhen he was, you know, the way

(30:30):
that we had those conversationsis, when he was about six or
seven, we actually sat down, andwe looked at the brain, and we
looked at the neurons, and weget to the minor sheet, and we
looked at the impact that youknow, too much screen can have
on that. And we looked at theresearch together, even though
he was six, we looked at ittogether, and whichever level he
could take on, you know, he tookon and he himself decided that,

(30:51):
you know, I don't want to dothis, you know, I don't want to,
I want to give my brain theopportunity to be the healthiest
it can possibly be. So hehimself decided, so it was like
us working together. And thenrecently, he was one night, he
was sitting in my bed, and hegoes to me, Mommy, you know,
when when I have my children,I'm not going to let them use

(31:14):
screens until they're 12.
I thought coming from somebodywho's like, experienced that,
and it wasn'tforcefully put on him. But it
was like, working together tothis, you know, and seeing how
he kind of not only, you know,he embraced it as a child, but

(31:38):
now as someone who is 1718. Andsomehow he's thinking about his
own children. So you know, Idon't know where that's coming
from, but thinking that that'sthe right way to be with
children. And I asked him why.
And he said that, as he'sobserved many children, and he's
observed his friends who've hadscreens, and he's observed other

(31:58):
children, you know, youngchildren around us now, he said,
he can see the impact, he said,I can straightaway tell when
somebody has had screen and, andhasn't had a screen. And he
says, and soI don't want that for my child.
And he said, but it's up toeverybody, they have their own
choice, if they want to, youknow, and and he just said it in
such a very mature, beautifulway. And, you know, that's an
example where there's a limits,you know, it's not freedom to do

(32:22):
everything, there is a limitthere. And there is some way
where we were, you know, we puta limit that's going to help
them for their betterment, youknow, for their good. So we put
that limit in place, but it'snot enforced, you know, we're
not enforcing it like a tiger,but we are enforcing it together
with them. And then what happensis that it's not only that they,
they follow with that, but theyembrace it. And then later on in

(32:44):
their life, they embrace thathealthy habit, or that healthy
lifestyle. So that's one examplethat, for me, has been quite
profound. I think, you know, inthe younger ages, you're setting
the limits, and then they becomecollaborative, you know, you sat
down at 612. And then as screensmay be opened up, you don't just
say, here's a screen, but youstart educating them what it's
like and how to interact onperhaps social media or other

(33:07):
things like that. I'm not surehow is exposed with that. But
how did that that kind oftransition then happen? Was he
curious with what other kidswere watching on TV or games,
what other kids were playing?
And how did that then unfold, hewas really curious, of course,
about what they're watching, buthe was always reading. So he

(33:27):
wastes felt like he had his ownmovie, but he's watching his
mind. And he would often say tome, when I imagine it, in my
mind, it's much nicer than whenit's on the screen. So he would
say that, and he's an avidreader. And I always ensure that
I invested that time to, youknow, always have, you know,
wonderful books available forhim to read chapter books. And
you know, and choose goodauthors that can really pull in

(33:49):
the reader and give him thatfeeling experience. So when he
was in his elementary years, hisyou know, his friends who may be
watching movie and he might haveread the book,
they would have all theseconversations about that. And he
would be like, No, no, no, itshouldn't be like that, you
know, it shouldn't be like thisin the book is like this. And I
imagined it like this. So thatthat was one one way where he,

(34:12):
and then with games, he alwaysplayed his own real games. And I
remember that the children wouldbe attracted to him, because he
was able to play these fantasticgames and the scenarios and play
them out in real life, you know,with using props or making
things and the children found itso exciting and like
fascinating. And that's becausehe wasn't playing the games on a

(34:34):
screen. So he was able to thenplay them in real life, and we
just provided whatever he neededfor that. So he actually says
that he loved his love that partof his childhood. He absolutely
loved it. He that he loved beingable to, you know, read the
books, make up the stories inhis mind, play out games and you
know, in real life, and then, asa teenager, when he did start to
go on a screen or people told mehe's going to be behind he won't

(34:57):
know how to use the screen.
You know, I actually come froman IT family. So, you know, I
was sat in front of a computer,like from birth,
I actually come from an ITfamilies, I kind of went against
what they do what they did. Andwhen he was 12, and he started
to go on on a laptop, or, youknow, he was just, he's able to

(35:21):
do so much more. I mean, he caneven hack my computer, and like,
and like, control it fromanother location. So, you know,
and that comes because he's beenable to develop his imagination,
he's been able to develop hisintellect, he's been able to
develop his character withoutthat influence. So when he's
come to actually be using thesedevices, he can use it, I, you

(35:43):
know, efficiently and verycreatively, I would say, Oh,
thank you. That's reassuring, Ithink for many parents, because
they do say, What if I don't putthem in front of these shows,
and everything else is, everyoneelse is getting these
experiences, what's going tohappen to my child, and it's
just nice to hear that they havethe skills, but then they apply
them to technology, and just thesame way as they would any other

(36:05):
things and those hands onlearning experiences. So rich,
actually, which is a great placebecause I would love to go back
to when Noah was in those zeroto three years. And like you
wrote about how he had plenty ofreal life experiences and
exposure to nature in thoseyears, and what zero to three
looks like, and then maybe whatthen three to six looked like.
So with zero to three, we didn'thave a beautiful mandatory South

(36:29):
shelf at home, just so everyoneknows, we didn't have that
middle shelf. We didn't havelike the object, permanent box
and things like that, because Icouldn't get them. But I really
took those principles. And Ireally, you know, I first of all
really took in the fact thathe's creating himself, he's
creating his movement, he'screating his language, he's
creating his socialinteractions, he's he's taken

(36:51):
this opportunity to createhimself. So the best way for
anyone to develop something inthemselves is through having
those life experiences. So youknow, we were lucky that we had
like a park that was just behindwhere I lived, and he would be
in the park every day, forhours, I wasn't working mom as
well. So I just kind of made itlike, I would drive home, I

(37:13):
would park my car and I'd go tothe park, before I get into my
house, because I knew once I gotinto my room, we're gonna get
out again. So I would take himto the park, and I would give
him that time to be in the park,and just let him be free, it
wasn't going to the park toteach him something is going to
the park to let him just be. Andthrough those experiences of,
you know, having ducks followhim or like, you know, spotting

(37:36):
swans sitting on, you know, itwas he saw like Swan sitting on
on eggs in a nest in the middleof the lake. And, you know,
seeing that every day and seeingwhat you know, everyday going
there to check on them. And, youknow, going through all of those
experiences where he was ableto, you know, experience it
himself hands on, even, youknow, when you know, when the

(37:57):
weather was bad, you know, youknow, and he couldn't go to the
park, there are so manyopportunities in the house for
life experiences, getting himinvolved in everything. So from
when he was really young, I'mtalking probably about eight or
nine months, he was in thekitchen helping me somehow or
another whatever he could do, hewas helping me with that,
whether it was just washing, youknow, like an apple or, you

(38:19):
know, cutting something or hewas always involved in that. And
I think that those lifeexperiences actually work, you
know, gave him this foundationthat he's built everything else
on.
I think nowadays, you know, wetend to focus more than buying
things and putting things out tomeet, you know, kind of
directing, but actually, it'sfine to do that it's fine to buy

(38:43):
things, and to have a beautifulshot is fine, but don't let it
take place of the real lifeexperiences. Because it's
actually those real lifeexperiences that have the
biggest impact on the child. Andwe want to give them as much of
those real life experiences aspossible. And I was lucky that,
you know, being in a time wherewe don't have Instagram, we
don't have I wasn't kind of kindof distracted by all of that I

(39:06):
was able to just take theprinciples and think he's
creating himself. So let me givehim all these experiences that
will allow him to create himselfand immerse him in, in the
culture in the country and inyou know, in life in most of it
in life. And that zero to threewas really much was really based
on that. And actually, no, it isautistic. I don't know if you've

(39:28):
picked out from my Yeah, so he'sautistic. And I knew for when he
was quite young, he was autisticand I decided to take it on as
as a gift that he has, ratherthan taking it on as a
challenge.
And, you know, knowing that hewas autistic meant that I needed
to ensure that he had a lot ofthese experiences because he

(39:51):
wasn't just going to pick upsocialization or pick up things
just from the normal experiencesthat another child may have had
to he needs to have itrepeatedly, so that he can break
through whatever challenge thathe's going to face due to his
autism. So I really took thattime from zero to three to give
him those, you know,opportunities to engage in real
life as much as possible andobserve him, you know, I would

(40:14):
just spend tons of time. I mean,he was my only son, and I, you
know, and of course, everyparent is in love with a child.
And one of the ways that Iexpress my love was to observe,
to observe him, you know,observe and see, find out who he
is, because it's only when youstep back and you observe your
child that you can trulyunderstand who they are, and

(40:34):
what they're doing what they'retrying to do. So observe him,
and then just have thatenvironment where he can be
fully involved. And because he'sabsorbed, absorbing everything
around him, just ensuring thatthat environment was very rich,
very rich, the language wasrich, the, you know, the
experiences that he had wasrich, and the opportunities that
he had was which i think thatthat observation, and when you

(40:56):
are being objective and looking,you don't see it as a deficit,
you do see it as this gift.
Yeah, not at all, you don't seeit as a deficit. And they do,
you know, he did many thingsdifferently. So observing him
was like, it was alwaysa thrill to see, whoa,

(41:17):
I've never seen anyone doanything like that, you know,
and, and then seeing that, andthen taking it back and
thinking, wow, you know, howincredible is this mind, you
know, this mind of this smallchild and this mind that this
autistic child, you know, soreally taking it like that?
You know, yeah, I think when youstep back, especially if you

(41:39):
have any children who havespecial needs, if you step back
and you just be with them, andyou observe them, you begin to
actually see what gift came withthis, whatever it is that they
experiencing what gifts camewith it, because every I really
believe that every child who hasa form of special needs, also
has a special gift, you know,that is needed for humanity. And

(42:00):
when we step back, we can seewhat this gift is. And then we
can help, you know, support themso that they can be who they're
supposed to be with that giftthat they have. Yeah, thank you,
I think that will be reallyhelpful for parents who may be
struggling to accept this wasn'tthe job that I was expecting,
you know, and then let's takecontinue this journey, you move
then into the three to six ageand the child starts refining

(42:23):
and crystallizing everythingthat they learned in the first,
you know, sub plane of thatfirst plane of development. What
kind of things were you seeingin that three to six age group,
when he was about three, that'swhen he started attending a
Montessori school? The one thatI worked in, and, you know,
because he's had those richexperience, I was actually
talking to my friend Margaret,who was it was her school. So he

(42:46):
actually attended that school.
And I said to her, do youremember, you know, when there
was about three or four, he wasdoing the binomial cube. And he
just, he just took one block,and he just dropped it on the
table. And he just turnedaround, he goes, this one is not
worked. And everybody was like,Huh, what is it?
Why is that? How can we sayingone of these blocks are not

(43:07):
word, you know, nobody kind ofrealized what he was talking
about. And then, you know, youknow, we he came up to us, and
he showed us, he said, this oneis not word. And then, you know,
we actually looked at it and didsome investigation. And
actually, it wasn't wooden, youknow, that cube from the
binomial cube had actually comefrom another set of blocks. And

(43:27):
it was the same size, but itwasn't wooden. And it was put in
there and it was black. And itwas the same color as everything
else. But it was, it was, youknow, it was like plastic or
something like that. But itwasn't obvious. So many people
had worked with it, but notrealize that.
And this is where thecrystallization has come. So
he's had all these experiencesfrom zero to three. And he's

(43:49):
used his his senses to take inall this information about the
world around him. And he's hadthis rich experience. And I've
never been the man who's given arun running commentary for
everything that he's doing.
Because I've always kind of beensomebody who just keeps you give
rich language just in the rightproportion, but you don't overdo
it. So it's not like he's hadall these experiences. And I've
constantly be saying, look, thisis what and this is this, isn't

(44:11):
it? No, it's just at the righttime, I gave him the right
language that he needed. Andthat comes from the Montessori
training that I had to know justwhat just what's the right
portion. So when we saw him likein the three to six stage, we
could then really see how theseexperiences that he's had now
through his opportunity to workwith them on certain materials

(44:31):
or to be in that environment.
With those materials, he wasthen able to now call back on
those experiences that he's hadbefore. And then kind of
formulate them and categorizethem and, and even get the
language that was associatedwith them. And then to be able
to, you know, reallydifferentiate between this
wooden block I mean, I don'tthink I would have noticed this

(44:53):
wooden block at this, this nonwooden block but didn't sit
there and have the ability toexpress it.
And then to try and solve theproblem. And I think that's what
that's one of the beautifulthings about Montessori
education is we we, you know,children, by nature, they are,
you know, having theseexperiences, and they are
problem solving, you know,there's so much problem solving

(45:16):
that's going on naturally. Andwhen we apply the Montessori
philosophy, and we adopt it asparents, whereas educators, we
create this environment wherethey can actually solve their
own problems, and they canactually differentiate between
things. And without us givingthem a problem to solve, like,
nowadays, problem solving is wegive a child a problem, and then

(45:37):
they have to solve it, and weobserve them as they solve it.
And then we're like, you know,you know, this is what technique
they use, but actually, thechild is naturally doing that.
And in that three to six days,we really got to see how all of
those experiences influenced whohe was and how he approached
the, you know, the monstermaterials or his experience in
the classroom.
And then it's not just limitedto the to the classroom, of

(46:00):
course, it's beyond that. Seeinghim now that he has the basic,
the basic foundation from zeroto three, seeing him now being
able to communicate him, youknow, himself or lead himself or
direct himself as this more kindof conscious worker towards
those things that he he wantedto learn or he wanted to engage

(46:21):
in, or he wanted. And that wasreally beautiful, because that's
really when I was able to thenstart to see this, you know, the
concept of follow the child or,you know, following the child's
interest, I could really see itin a much more profound way
emerging in that three to sixstage. And I was able to step
back and observe and see now ashe not only moves, but he also

(46:44):
tells us, and he alsocommunicates with us what it is
that he's interested in what itis that he's doing and what he's
discovered. And I that reallyled me to think, well, I don't
want his Montessori journey toend at six.
I was like, I don't want this,to me, this is so so beautiful
to watch this journey. And atthe time, in England, there were

(47:05):
only like a handful ofelementary schools. And it was
really hard to get elementarytraining at that time very, very
hard, you know. So that's when Ienrolled myself to train as an
elementary teacher, because Iwanted to be able to continue
that journey beyond the age ofsix. And what I love is that Dr.
Montessori recognized that theymove from first plane to second

(47:26):
plane Rio between five and ahalf and six and a half. And
it's like, she told him a seriesof rebirths, because all of a
sudden, you have this new childwith different characteristics.
And I'd love them with yourtraining, and then following no
on this journey, like what itlooks like now, where they take
everything from the first periodand they're expanding on it.
It's like this period ofexpansion, I would say the
second plane, yes, yes, itdefinitely it's, it's the second

(47:50):
pane of development, the waythat I see is, it's like this
thrilling, this thrillingjourney that you take with this
elementary child because they'vegot this powerful imagination,
and they've got this hugecuriosity and this huge interest
in the world around them. And,you know, having had the
foundation in his zero to sixstage and you know, he was he

(48:12):
was able to read and he was ableto, you know, use, he knew how
to use books, and you know, allof that, when he entered the
elementary stage, she was ableto kind of take all of the
skills that he had acquired, thepractical life skills, you know,
all of these things, able totake them. And then to lead his
own learning. One of the thingsfor me, that was always in the

(48:33):
back of my mind, ever since hewas born was that I wanted him
to be an autonomous learner, Iwanted him to, to really show me
what it was like for someone todirect their own learning. And
in the elementary stage, that'sreally where this complete
autonomous learner just emerged.
And he was beyond me, beyond meand beyond anybody, you know,

(48:53):
the things that he taught me thethings that he went into the
things that he discovered, werebeyond me, it wasn't things that
I prepared a lesson or Iprepared, you know, I read up on
something and then I'm, youknow, giving him a lesson or I'm
delivering knowledge to him, itwas not that at all. And in the
elementary years, they have thishuge capacity. And, and, you

(49:15):
know, being an educator orparent in the elementary stage,
our role is not to fill themwith knowledge at all. You know,
in fact, you know, a lot ofpeople ask me, I can't
homeschool my elementary child,or I can't be an elementary
teacher, because I don't haveenough knowledge about the
world. And I would say to them,you don't have to know

(49:38):
everything, like nobody knowseverything. You know, you just
have to be ready to go on thisjourney with the child and they
will show you the world inanother light. And he he took me
through so many differentinterests that he's had and you
know, all self directed usingall have those skills and that

(50:00):
foundation that you had in hisfirst plane of development, all
of that language and those, youknow, all of the things that he
acquired in that first andyou're using them now, and
following his own interests. Healso because of his autism, he
also when he gets intosomething, he really gets into
it. And he kind of like,everything else is blocked out.
When he was six, he started thisinteresting birds, which lasted

(50:24):
for about 18 months. And everysingle thing about the work that
the bird kingdom, he knew itevery single thing, and I
remember that when he was aboutseven, we went to a birds of
prey park in England, and hewalked into the birds of prey
Park, and he was like, this isthis, this is that this is this

(50:44):
one eats this, this one's fromthis country, this is really the
end. And the guide was like,Who is this child. And you know,
a lot of people, they, when Itell them the story, they said,
That's because he's, he'sautistic, or that's because he's
this, that's because he's that,and I say that, it's actually
nothing to do with that, it'sbecause he's been able to be
himself from birth, he's beenable to develop according to

(51:05):
nature, he's been able to makefull use of his gifts that are
given to him by nature, hissensitive periods, his absorbent
mind, you know, whatever it is,he's been given the opportunity
to make full use of them. Sowhat you see coming out now is
that huge capacity and a hugepotential that's started off

(51:25):
from birth, being able to followhis own interests, being able
to, you know, go, you know, youknow, I always protected his
concentration from birth. Iknow, a lot of people think, how
does a newborn baby concentrate,but they can concentrate very
well. And I always protected hisconcentration, something really
simple as if I was reading abook to him, when he was a

(51:47):
newborn, I would not turn thepage until he's looked away. So
that concentration that he has,when he's looking at the book, I
would protect that. And thenonce he's looked away, then I
would turn the page, somethingas simple as that. So in the
elementary stage, we couldreally see all of that coming
together. And then we could seethis amazing knowledge, this

(52:09):
amazing capacity to, to explorethe world around him, and to
articulate it, and to show andshare it with everybody. And,
you know, it's not just him thatI've experienced this with, I've
experienced this with, you know,so many children that I've
worked with, you know, from allsorts of backgrounds, even

(52:29):
children who haven't had aMontessori home, you know, in
the elementary classroom, ifthey've had that opportunity to
have that three to six,experience and then moved out to
the elementary class, and wejust see this like this, you
know, you cannot contain theircuriosity, and they lead you in
so many directions down thisearth that is endless, endless,

(52:50):
an endless pool of knowledge. Sodown these and you begin to
learn so much, I learned so muchfrom just being with him. And
and, you know, sharing this,these, this journey that he's on
with him, sharing them, and ashe went through his different
interests of birds, or cars, orhorses, or whatever it may be
being able to, you know,experience that with him. And I

(53:13):
myself have learned and enrichme and enrich my own knowledge.
But we can only really allow itto enrich ourselves if we're
willing to, to, to learn fromthe child and to be there and be
present. And we have thathumility to really accept what
the child is trying to show us.
I love that you talk about howthe imagination exploded, that

(53:36):
the work ethic really explodesin a second plane and
imagination when they have avery concrete, you know, ground
base that they developed in thefirst six years, then if you've
seen a tower, then you in thesixth 12, as you can imagine any
type of tower so that concreteand reality is really important
in the first plane so that theycan have this huge imagination
solve problems from the world.
No every bird like no, we did,and all those other kinds of

(53:58):
things. So it's reallyfascinating. And I think that
it's really interesting then tosee how that moves into
adolescence where normally theworkload gets bigger. And we're
thinking that they need to workmore intellectually, but they're
fragile. Again, they go back tolike being in a parallel plane.
So the first plane ofdevelopment where they're
fragile, like a newborn, andactually you wrote a beautiful
thing in one of your Instagramposts. It says, the transition

(54:19):
from child to adult is aturbulent time and the child is
in need of love and care likethe newborn, I learned that I
have to shift my role from adultto being a friend. We're not
finished yet. He's still got onemore year of the stage, but I
feel like we're now on theupward slope. And the most
important has been to trust thechild on his journey. Yes,
definitely. I think that, youknow, the elementary stage for

(54:40):
me was like you, I really sawthe intellect of him and many
other children like operating onthis level that is phenomenal,
is unbelievable. And then whenhe got to the adolescent stage,
we just suddenly saw as hetransitions, we just saw a
shift, you know, and hewould say to me, my brain is not
like it used to be.

(55:04):
Just say that, to me, my brainis not like it used to be, I
can't think the way that I usedto think. And it's really
profound that Dr. Montessori sheshared with us that the
adolescence is going throughthis huge, huge changes in the
body. I mean, every one of ushas gone through it, we know,
huge changes in the body, theywake up one morning, and then
legs are longer or, you know,whatever it may be, and

(55:26):
humungous changes in the brain,I mean, the changes in the
brain. Now we've got all this,you know, brain research to back
up what Dr. Montessori said,right, and so many changes that
are going on in the brain. And,you know, this is not a time
that the child should have thispressure to, to learn
intellectual knowledge or to youknow, complete a curriculum or

(55:47):
to complete certain studies, Ithink that that, you know, in,
in the mainstream school ofthought, as the child gets
older, you add on more, right,and you put you give them more,
and that they should be capableof more, but actually, what I've
experienced with him, and withall the children that I've
worked with, is that, you know,they can take this, they can

(56:09):
take so much intellectualknowledge joyfully happening
without any pressure, witheagerness and curiosity in the
elementary stage. But when itcomes to the adolescent stage,
now, this is the time where theyneed to be really working with
their hands, and they reallyneed to be experiencing life,
like social life. And, you know,Montessori spoke about ERD

(56:30):
kingda, the model for theadolescence school. And, you
know, the children are involvedin running this community, it's
like a mini community, andthey're involved in running it,
whether it's collecting the eggsfrom the chickens, so that they
can cook their their breakfast,or whether it's, you know,
cleaning the stables if theyhave horses, or growing

(56:51):
vegetables, or, you know, evenlike doing office work, you
know, we have adolescents here,and, you know, they take over
all the office work. So we knowthat the adolescents needs to be
involved hands on in real lifework, that is part of their
transition to adulthood, theydon't need to be sitting there
with a textbook, and acurriculum and being pressurized

(57:14):
to learn certain things ormemorize certain things. And you
know, so that they can pass anexam or they can get a certain
grade. So they need this handson opportunity. And they need as
much opportunity as possible totake on responsibilities, adult
responsibilities, not traveledas adults take on these adult
responsibilities, and be able tosee the consequences of their

(57:36):
work, they really need to beable to see the consequences of
the work. So if they don't, ifthey don't clean out the stable
one day, because they've decidednot to, then the next day, when
they go, it's going to be muchharder to clean it out, they
need to face that consequence.
Right. And we can we can providethat in so many ways as parents
at home, you know, I mean,Montessori did talk about, you

(57:57):
know, the adolescents going tothis herd kinja it's like a farm
school and they're kind of notliving with the parents. And you
know, if if, if there is aenvironment like that in your
area, and you are happy with it,and you trust everyone, now,
then it's beautiful for thechildren to experience that. But
I know that like not everyone iscapable of doing that. So you

(58:19):
know, even in your homeenvironment, just try to give
them these opportunities. And ifit's not working in your home
environment, then give them theopportunity in another
environment. So, for example,Noah might not be as helpful as
a he in the home as he would beif he was in another environment
helping so give him as muchopportunity to, to be both have

(58:41):
those responsibilities in theenvironment that works for him.
So that he can, it can be partof who he is, you know, and this
is what they need in that space.
They need these opportunities,they need this hands on
connection to the earthconnection to to life, you know,

(59:02):
through the through waterthrough animals through other
people and they need to be in acommunity where they are
respected. The adolescence isvery sensitive and they're very
vulnerable. They need to be inan environment where they're
respected for who they are andnot judged constantly. And Dr.
Montessori tells us that theyare like newborns, you know. So

(59:23):
you have to, you know, do wejudge our newborns every time
So, we can't judge our ouradolescents, you know, we have
to give them this endless love.
And one of the biggest shifts Ihad to make in myself is his
shift away from being the mom orbeing the teacher, or, you know,
shift away from that. And I'mtalking about even being a

(59:45):
Montessori guide, shift awayfrom being that to now being a
friend because in an adolescencecommunity, they would have these
adults who mentor them and whoare like friends to them rather
than like teachers to them,shift away from that because
it'sthrough that experience of him,
you know, making his own choicesand having his own discussions
that he's able to construct hisadult self. And if we don't step

(01:00:07):
out the way, they can'tconstruct that adult self in the
way that it's supposed to beconstructed, so we need to step
out the way and and be with themrather than, you know, be their
friend, rather than seeingourselves as the one who's, you
know, direct to them. And it'svery difficult. I mean, I don't
know how you did it.

(01:00:29):
With with adolescence, it's verydifficult. And then when you
have an an adolescent, who hasbeen through the Montessori
philosophy, from birth, they'revery self directed, they know
who they are, they know who theywant to be, they don't, they
don't get impacted by prep peerpressure as much because they
have their own kind of conceptof who they are, and what it is,
you know, what's right, andwhat's wrong, and what they want
to do and not do. And it's justreally beautiful, when you give

(01:00:52):
them that freedom to begin to beable to see who they are, and
what they what they show you.
And, you know, it's been reallygood for 12, from 12, to about
16, he was just free to do whathe wanted to do. And I mean,
like, totally free. So I do wantto say that there was like two
years where I don't think hepicked up a pen. And he's

(01:01:12):
somebody who loves language. Imean, as a, as a elementary
child, he loved language, hewould write stories, non stop,
and you'd write letters, and youdo all these things. But you
know, from there were two yearsin his adolescent stage where he
just wouldn't pick up, he didn'twant to pick up a pen, he didn't
want to buy anything. And I lethim be, I took a lot of trust,

(01:01:33):
took a lot of drugs, but I lethim be. And it's only recently
that he, he knew that he had totake his igcc high school exams
to get into university. And he'sthinking about studying
psychology, or philosophy orsociology. So he knows he needs
to take some exams to enteruniversity. So it's only

(01:01:58):
recently that he decided to worktowards them. So it wasn't his
whole life working towards it,it was just a part of his life.
And he actually, you know, tookthe English having not written
for so long, took the Englishexam, and, you know, got an ace,
or he just showed me, you don'tneed to be writing all the time

(01:02:18):
to build up to that you don'tneed to you can, you can let
your child be free. And justtrust that when the time comes,
that they will do it. And thetime comes, they can do it. If
you've allowed them to developaccording to nature, and
according to their planes ofdevelopment, and you've allowed

(01:02:38):
them to really capitalize onthose powers that they're given
at each stage, then you can givethem that freedom in the
adolescent stage and they willshow you that what they're
capable of is beyond what youimagined. That's so beautiful. I
there's so many things that Iwould love to ask you about your
Montessori parenting, but I alsowould love to touch on some of

(01:03:00):
the work that you're doing yourschool and I know that Islamic
Montessori is something thatyou're really passionate about,
and how you believe there'sIslamic education and Islamic
parenting and how would youtouch on that for us how you
bring that into your home, inyour school and that kind of
thing. I think that theMontessori method itself is it's
a very holistic method. And it'sbased on the nature of the human

(01:03:21):
being how the child naturally isand how they naturally learn and
develop. And there's a hugeemphasis in the Montessori
philosophy about respecting thechild and trusting the child.
And for me, you know, as aMuslim, I see that that's that's
part of my faith, you know, thatpart of our faith is to trust
the child and to respect thechild. So it's when I you know,

(01:03:42):
with my work in IslamicMontessori, it's not that we
are. It's not that we're tryingto make Montessori Islamic, but
it's trying to understand thatall of this Montessori is
already part of who we shouldbe, as Muslim people, we should
be these people who have this,this trust and should be this
people have this love for thechild, we should be this people

(01:04:04):
who who follow the naturaldevelopment of the child. This
is actually who we should be.
And, you know, in Montessorieducation, there's, you know,
all in all of Montessori, hiswork is on this backbone of
cosmic education, right, ofbeing able to discover your own
cosmic task, and seeing theuniverse around you and seeing

(01:04:27):
everything in the universearound you has a cosmic task and
we too, have a cosmic task andwe have a purpose and we want
the child to discover theirpurpose and their contribution
that they're going to make tothis this Cosmos of life, you
know, this inter interconnectedweb of life. And, you know, as a
Muslim, that's, that's somethingthat is very much ingrained in

(01:04:49):
my faith. That, you know, weare, you know, everybody has a
purpose in life and we are partof this interconnected web. And
we are you know, we are here toserve
Have, and here to find a waythat we can serve and that we
can facilitate for thebetterment of, of life, whether
it's the betterment of otherhumans or the betterment of

(01:05:09):
animals or the betterment of theenvironment, or whatever it may
be. So for me, you know,Montessori in Islam go really
well together, actually, it's,it's one thing, you know,
and when I do my work at, youknow, in Islamic Montessori,
it's more to just bring, raisethat awareness amongst other

(01:05:30):
people who have the Islamicfaith to raise that awareness
that this is not something thatis different from who you should
be. Anyway, this is the samething. And so a lot of the work
that I do is just connecting theterminology, you know, it may be
given in a different way, butit's actually what we what, you
know, Muslim people should bedoing anyway, you know, we
should be these people who arefull of respect and humility and

(01:05:52):
love and, and trusting the childand supporting the development,
that's what we should be. Andthat's what we should be wanting
for all of our children, youknow, so just really connecting
the two together, there isn'tmuch hard work to have to do to
do anything is very welldeserved, because for me, it's
it's not about teaching a childIslam or about, you know, it's
just about allowing the child tobe who they are, and grow

(01:06:16):
according to nature. And thenthey will show us, they will
show us the capabilities thatthey have. So even in my school
that we have here, you know,lots of people will come to
visit my school and I say, youknow, how do you teach your
children about God? Or how doyou teach your children about
Islam? Or how do you teach themto pray? And, you know, I just

(01:06:38):
say to them, you know, thenature of the child is that, you
know, when they see somethingamazing, they just say, wow, you
know, that is the prayer, youknow, that amazement, and that
appreciation of whatever theyhave experienced. That is the
prayer. That's the connectionthat they have. So we don't

(01:06:58):
necessarily teach our childrenreligion, but we have, but
through the environment ofrespecting the child and loving
the child and having all havethese beautiful qualities that
we try to develop in ourselvesand being spiritually prepared
and aware, you know, that in ourfaith, you have to spiritually
purify yourself and Montessorisaid, you have to spreadsheet
verify us.

(01:07:18):
In our faith, you have to stripyourself of your deep rooted
defects. And then Montessorialso says strip yourself of your
deep rooted defects. And so thework that I do is, is just
really letting people see thatit's the same thing. It's not
something different so that, youknow, people who do follow a
particular religion, they don'tfeel like they can't embrace the

(01:07:39):
Montessori method. Because it's,it's different, because it's not
different. This is a very humannatural method, and it's suited
to anybody in any faith or inany culture on any country. You
know, on any tradition. It'sbecause it's all based on nature
is based on Dr. Montessori, hisobservations of the child to see
how they naturally grow anddevelop. That's wonderful. It

(01:08:01):
makes me really excited becauseyou're like a translator, like
I'm just translating theterminology so that people
understand maybe from Islam orfrom Montessori, how they fit
together. It's really, reallyexciting. And I think that, you
know, you spoke so beautifullyabout, like the universal child,
how this is all the children thesame, but also culturally, like
so now that you're in Malaysia,and you grew up in the UK? Do

(01:08:22):
you see Montessori playing outdifferently, like the different
things that parents are worriedabout, or the children you know,
they have the same humantendencies, but culturally,
we're also raising them toabsorb their culture and their
time in place. So that this wasone of the things that I was
really excited to experiencewhen I first opened my school in
Malaysia. So I already ran aschool in England for five years

(01:08:44):
before I came out here. And youknow, I had all of my
experiences mostly been with,you know, children in England.
And when I came to Malaysia, andI set up my classroom I remember
the first few weeks feeling likereally excited to see how do
these children who have a verydifferent culture, very
different style of upbringing,near the Malaysian people are

(01:09:05):
really lovely people, like solovely people. When I when I
came out here, the first twoweeks I just melted. So I just
melted I was like, you know,this is just so beautiful. The
speed of life here is different.
You know, it's not as rushed as,as what it was when I was in
England. You know, it's just areally beautiful country. People

(01:09:26):
are really, really beautiful.
And I was really curious to seehow would these children
being amongst learningenvironment. And I know that,
you know, before I opened myschool, a lot of people did come
to me and say to me, you can'tdo Montessori in Malaysia. It
doesn't work with Malaysianchildren. Yes, a lot of people.

(01:09:47):
You can't do Montessori inMalaysia. It doesn't work with
Malaysian people. And, you know,you're going to need to make
changes. There are things thatyou're going to have to put in
that are not Montessori butThis is what the Malaysian child
needs. And I said to the, youknow, I said to everybody look,
you know, I believe thatMontessori is a universal
method, it's suitable to allchildren everywhere. And I'm

(01:10:08):
just going to go with what wedid in in England, but of
course, in the cultural setting,and, you know, offer that to the
child and see what they show me.
And it's been really, reallybeautiful to experience, there
are differences in how thechildren will approach, let's
say, certain activities or, youknow, different interests that

(01:10:31):
they may have had, that Ihaven't ever experienced when I
was working in England. So thereare differences. But, you know,
they are, they have enjoyed theenvironment so much. And it's
been, you know, such a blessingto see these children who come,
you know, Malaysian children whocome to this Montessori
environment, see how theyinteract, and see how they are.
And it's taught me a lot,because, you know, it's taught

(01:10:54):
me another way of how childrenmight be, it's not. So it's not
completely different, it's stillthe universal child, but it's
just another way that they are.
And it's been absolutely, it'sbeen such a beautiful
experience, and it's expanded myunderstanding of the child so
much expanded my understandingof the child, and I try my best
to keep my school within theculture, Malaysia at the moment

(01:11:16):
is kind of shifting away fromits culture. And I'm the kind of
person that really likes tostick to culture, you know, and
at least give those childrenthat experience of that culture.
So, you know, when I was puttingin our kitchen, in our three to
six classroom, I decided to makeit a tiled kitchen, like you
would commonly see in aMalaysian country house. And,

(01:11:38):
you know, we got these littlestraw mats that are
traditionally made in Malaysia,you know, so the children were
using those instead of maybeusing like a carpet mat that we
had in England. So we tried asmuch as possible to bring in
like, the cultural elements oftheir environment into the
classroom. So there aredifferences from what I had in
England, but the way you know,the child is the child is

(01:12:03):
universal, universal, you know,they, they embrace the
environment, the same way thatit was embraced in England. And
I haven't had to make anychanges to Montessori itself. I
haven't had to to, like, makeany changes. It's been
absolutely beautiful, absolutelyperfect. And, you know, I would,
I could never walk away fromthis.

(01:12:25):
I could never look around andthink I want to go back to
England to do that. Because it'sjust been so you know, when
you're in a country wherechildren don't have this
opportunity, and they don't havethis experience, and some of the
children that come to us, theywould have never had early as
experience, you know, so whenyou're in a country like that,
and you do it, you just feellike you it's a it's a big sense

(01:12:45):
of fulfillment. And I feel likethat what I got as a child, from
my experience in Montessorischool, I can now give it back
to the children that are here.
And that's been really, reallybeautiful. Oh, wow, that's so
fun that you've had such adifferent experience. And yet,
it's kind of the same experienceas well, in many ways. And I
know that your school isactually multilingual, where you

(01:13:09):
have Malay, Arabic and English.
And I guess parents wouldprobably be curious how that
works in practice and how thesechildren absorb the different
languages. Do you have differentteachers with the different
languages? Is that how you doit? Yeah, so we are trilingual.
In Malaysia, there will bechildren who speak Malay as
their first language. Andthey'll also be children who
speak English as their firstlanguage. So the Malaysian

(01:13:31):
cultures is already mixed. Andthere's also Tamil and, and
Mandarin that are commonlyspoken in the environment. So
the children are exposed todifferent environment, different
languages in their environment.
I always try to honor the Malaylanguage, the language of the
country, I, you know, I had thechoice to make my school an

(01:13:53):
English medium school, but Ididn't want the children to feel
like it's better to learnEnglish central on their own
language. So we've alwaysensured that their Malay
heritage was rich in the school,the language is rich in school,
I didn't speak any Malay fiveyears later.
So you know, but I always havean adult in the environment who

(01:14:14):
can speak Malay very well. Andthen we also have an adult in
the environment who can speakEnglish very well. And then we
try our best to have anotheradult who speaks only Arabic to
the children, so that they'rehaving those three languages.
And if we had someone who couldspeak Chinese, we would also
have the Chinese in with bringme I would bring in the
different, different languages.
So the first way that thechildren are really experiencing

(01:14:36):
is is through their interactionwith the adult, you know,
through their interaction withthe adult their day to day
interaction, the day to dayconversations that they have,
that's the first way and then ofcourse, we offer the you know,
the oral experiences in thoselanguages. And then we offer the
language materials in thoselanguages. And, you know, I have
always had this approach tolanguage that not to pressure

(01:15:00):
Eyes children into learninganother language, but letting it
come naturally letting it comefrom their own love. And
children are very curious. Imean, I don't speak Malay. So
when I'm in the environment, I'monly speaking in English. And
when they want to speak to me,they have to speak to me in
English, otherwise, I won'tunderstand. So you see all these
like three and four year oldstrying to translate each other,

(01:15:21):
you know, it's incredibly cutetrying to translate each other
so they can express something tome. And then when I say
something, they're liketranslating it back. And it's,
it's really beautiful andincredible to see. And I think
that, you know, it's, it'stotally doable to have a
multilingual environment, in aMontessori classroom, and it
just really enriches the child'sexperience and allows them that

(01:15:43):
opportunity to, you know, to beexposed to another language in a
way that's quite natural. ratherthan it being a formal lesson.
It's just a natural living partof the environment. And because
you're the owner of a school,something that I often get asked
is, you know, why do you onlyhave one of everything in the
classroom? Because, I mean, whyare you teaching them to wait

(01:16:04):
when they even hurt to have twopairs of scissors? Or why can't
they work at the same time onthe same thing? I think that
comes all the way back to whatthe purpose of Montessori is.
And Dr. Lazaro tells useducation is we're educating the
child for life, we're preparingthem for life. So in a real life
situation, you have to you haveto wait your turn, right, you

(01:16:26):
have to, you know, when you goto, you know, in your house, you
don't have like, hundreds of of,of ovens available, that
everyone can bake at the sametime, or you don't have many of
one thing available, youactually it's in the natural
environment that we have, youknow, your office will have one
photocopier, you have to wait,you know, things like that. So

(01:16:48):
we're preparing the child forreal life, right. And everywhere
around us, the child, you know,the adult has to experiences
this, you know, where we have towait, and we have to be patient,
we have to take turns, or wehave to whatever it may be. And
we that's also reflected in theclassroom, we provide the most
natural setting. That is,according to the to nature, the

(01:17:10):
most natural setting, and in thenatural setting of life, there
aren't going to be multiples ofeverything. So in our classroom,
we don't provide multiples ofeverything. And that having one
material of you know, one ofeach material creates so many
opportunities for learning fordeveloping your will, for taking
turns, for respecting somebodyelse's work for honoring

(01:17:33):
somebody for appreciatingsomebody else, there's so many
opportunities that come out fromthat. So for us, it's not just
that the child works with thematerial, and then they get
whatever concept is in thatmaterial. But it's the whole
process of being in theenvironment. And you know, the
whole process of even getting tothat material is developing
their character and developingtheir will and developing their

(01:17:54):
personality. So that later on inlife, they already had, they've
already gone through that. Andthey've developed their life,
that their personality accordingto what real life is like, and
then they're able to then be acontributing member of society.
Well, I think we've come fullcircle. Thank you so much for
sharing all of your wisdom withus. Is there anything that you

(01:18:14):
passionate about that you didn'tget to share in our
conversation? I think I thinkI've spoken a lot. Thank you so
much. Thank you so much, Simone.
It's been lovely. And, you know,thank you for your questions.
And for the time that you'vegiven me today. It's beautiful,
and everyone is going to want tocheck out Rumi Montessori. So
I'll put all of the links toyour website and your Instagram
and all the places that you areon the internet in the show

(01:18:36):
notes. So check those out. Andyou said, thank you so much for
your time today. We reallyappreciate it. Thank you so
much, Simone. I appreciate it somuch. Thank you.

(01:19:02):
So pretty cool, right? We'reteaching our children not to
learn just for learning sake,but for life. So I know you're
gonna want to check out Nusaibahand all her work. So I'll put
the links to roomie Montessoriover in the show notes at the
Montessori notebook calm. Andnow it's time for a listening
question. And Karolina asks, Ihave a three year old son who

(01:19:22):
has been raised in a Spanishenvironment, even though we live
in the US. I've never wanted tolabel him as a shy person. But I
think that's one of thedescriptions that the rest of
the people that gets to know Himsay about him. So how do you
work with people that are shy?
Or have some personality traitsof shyness? And how do you help
these kinds of people tosucceed? And what can I do as a
parent to encourage my child tobe more open to others and to

(01:19:43):
play and work with others.
So, indeed, I've also learned totry not to label children as shy
or any other labels that couldbe like a clown or naughty as
they can really keep a child inthat role, and even more
positive labels.
Like, Oh, you're so smart or canbe unhelpful because actually it
becomes a lot of pressure forthe child to live up to those.

(01:20:07):
You might even want to thinkabout like, reviver labeled as a
child, and am I still trying tounlearn that label? So what I
first like to do is toacknowledge if the child is
finding it hard, like, kind oftranslating for them. Are you
not wanting to talk yet? Andwould you like to warm up a bit
first, and come and say, Hi,when you're ready. So that can
be really helpful. Or if someoneelse calls them shy, we could

(01:20:28):
translate the other way forthem, oh, they'll get talking
once they feel comfortable. Sothen you can kind of be in
between translating for yourchild or translating for the
other people so that they don'thave this level of shy boys
being put on them. And then whatI also really like to do is yes,
I don't want to change in mychild is, but we can start to
build the skills that they mightneed. So for example, if you

(01:20:49):
were going to a birthday party,you could practice on your way
there. Like when we go to abirthday party, we bring your
gift, and we say happy birthday.
And so you could practice it onthe way so that when they walk
in, they automatically say happybirthday. And that is like a
social grace that you've beenable to teach them.
You can also give the child achoice in how they greet people.

(01:21:10):
So like when it's not apandemic, in my classes, we
practice shaking hands when achild arrives. But I never
forced them to. So sometimes theparents so interested in like,
Oh, can you shake hands, and Ithen can pull them aside and
say, listen, maybe your childmight like to come to class in a
different way. So some childrenlike to tell me a story, or they
bring something to show me orthey find a leaf or a flower

(01:21:32):
along the way, which they liketo bring as well. And that's
their way of saying hi.
That can make your child feel alittle bit more in control of
the situation. And they feelmore empowered. And it's like
someone coming to visit yourhouse, and you have some control
of how to set up that situation.
You can set up some activitiesmaybe ahead of time that your
child finds funds to do. And sowhen the visitors arrive, it

(01:21:55):
might be like, you've set upsome playdough and a few other
things. And then they usually soexcited to show the visitors
what they've set up and they canget on and do that together.
And then it could also besomething to do with the
confidence in the language. SoI'm kind of curious what kind of
input they have in English. Soif you're speaking Spanish at
home, they may feel not soconfident with English at the

(01:22:17):
moment. So how can you increasethe input of English? So do you
have a babysitter who might be anative English speaker, or maybe
a teenage neighbor who couldcome over and read books with
them once a week? You know,things like that, that they can
start to help them feel moreconfident in speaking English.
And then I also have a bookrecommendation. I really love

(01:22:38):
Susan Kane's book, it's calledquiet the power of introverts in
a world that can't stop talking.
And not to give too much away.
But the first chapter is myabsolute favorite, and basically
talks about why is it in any waythat it's expected that
everyone's an extrovert and canimmediately warm up to people
and make small talk? So it'salso like starting to shift that
paradigm of like, yeah, is itnot okay to be shy and to take

(01:23:00):
some time to warm up. So I hopethat helps, in short, kind of
allow your child to be who theyare, because that is their
beautiful person, that they willbe in the world. And then also
just help them to start to learnthe skills that they'll need in
society. So, everyone, that's itfor today, I hope you all
enjoyed the first episode of ournew season a podcast, and I'll

(01:23:22):
be back next Friday with a newepisode where I got to interview
Kara, who is six years old, andher mother Mars, who you may
know on Instagram, as Montessorifrom Mars, Kara and I spoke for
over an hour and you're notgoing to want to miss it.
I am also getting super excitedas the Montessori baby book is
nearly here. And it's nowavailable for pre order and will

(01:23:44):
come out on the 11th of May. Iwrote the book with Jennifer
who's a deca from Nigeria who isamazing. And the book covers
everything how you applying theMontessori principles from right
during the pregnancy and rightthrough the first year. And we
also have some super fun bonusesfor those of you who are pre
ordering so I'll pop a link forall of that in the show notes if

(01:24:07):
you want to check it out. One ofmy favorite bonuses is a poster
for you to download and printfor your fridge which is written
from your baby's perspective toany visitors grandparents
babysitters and things about howthey can apply Montessori with
them as the baby so everyoneneeds that cheat sheet alone.
Okay, so I'll keep you updatedall about the book launch as it
gets closer. And till nextFriday everyone.

(01:24:32):
Thanks for joining me for theMontessori notebook podcast. The
podcast was edited by Luke Daviefrom filmprov media and
odcast asked by Hiroko Imai. Toind out more about me and my
nline courses visit theontessori notebook.com. Follow
e on Instagram at theontessori notebook for pick up
copy of my book The Montessorioddler for its new prequel The

(01:24:53):
ontessori Baby from your localookstore, Amazon or where books
re sold. They're also availables ebooks or
ebooks and have been translatedinto over 20 languages. I'll be
back in a week with moreMontessori inspiration. And in
the meantime, perhaps you'lljoin me in spreading some more
peace and positivity around theworld.

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