S2 E5 Wisdom from two of my favourite Montessori grandparents, Barbara Isaacs and Ferne van Zyl

In this episode, Barbara and Ferne share so much wisdom from years of Montessori teaching, Montessori parenting and being a Montessori grandparent. By the end of the episode, you'll want to adopt both of them as surrogate grandparents in your home too!

Links from the show

• Barbara Isaacs - Montessori Europe, Montessori Musings, Montessori Granny, My Montessori Life podcast
• Ferne van Zyl - The Independent Child, Instagram
• The book you wish your parents had read, by Philippa Perry
• On Children by Kahlil Gibran from The Prophet, by Kahlil Gibran
• What is the research into Montessori?
• A group for Montessori grandparents with Pamela Green

This week's listener question

My son is 7 months old, I have been following all the Montessori principles that i can find and using it with my son. I live in Kathmandu and the concept is there in a very superficial way. Schools are called Montessori but they don't follow the principles. So my question is regarding my son visiting his peers / friends who live in a mountain of electronic toys. 

How will my son deal with an environment where no one is vaguely following the method. All his toys are wooden Montessori toys and his friends have just plastic and battery operated toys. What can i expect from his interactions with his peers. 

And what will the difference be between him and his friends when they are older?

Episode Transcript

Simone Davies (00:11):
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Montessori
Notebook podcast. So I'mrecording this intro on the
Monday evening before thisepisode comes out, it's quite
late and dark and quiet. And I'mstarting to realize that it's
actually a pretty good time torecord a podcast. However, I do
feel like I want to whisper soif I get very quiet, there might
be that. But anyways, I have allthe fields going on as tomorrow

(00:34):
is officially the day that ourbook The Montessori Baby lands.
So by the time you hear this, itwill be out in bookstores. And
it's been delayed by COVID. So Iam so excited that it's finally
going to be here. And I'll tryto do an episode on babies
sometime soon as there's so muchyou can already do in the first
year. And even when the babiesin utero, so that would be fun.

(00:54):
I hope. Yeah. Do you thinkthat'd be fun? I mean, and like
everyone says, launching a bookis no joke, and hence why it's
dark here and I'm recording thislate and it was meant to be with
Luke who edits these for me lastFriday. But well, thanks, Luke,
for your patience with me. Andhere we go. So today you are
going to be blown away by myguests. I have not one but two

(01:16):
brilliant guests with us with atotal of over 50 or maybe even
60 years of experience inMontessori between them. I got
to speak with one of my dearmentors Ferne van Zyl who was
the main reason I trained as aMontessori teacher. When I went
to her Montessori playgroup inAustralia we back in 2002 when
Oliver was around 18 months old,and I also spoke with my dear

(01:38):
friend Barbara Isaacs, whorecently retired, but has never
been busier, I would say withjust some of her current roles
being the president ofMontessori Europe, blogging at
the Montessori Granny and is onehalf of Montessori Musings as
well as part of our lovelyMontessori everywhere team. And
perhaps the most important isshe loves being grandma to her
two grandchildren. So among manyother things, the main reason I

(02:00):
wanted to speak to both of theseinspiring women was to talk to
them about what it's like to bea Montessori grandparent. It was
a super fun conversation. And itreminds us of the Khalil Gibran
poem on children. So I'm goingto open up my book here and read
it to you. You can find it inthe Prophet by Kahlil Gibran.

(04:34):
And then what about when ourchild wants to climb a little
bit higher. And when we want tosay be careful, like then
letting go is laying them trusttheir own body. So we have this
Pikler triangle in my classroom,which I say is just as much for
the adults to practice as it isfor the children because we're
practicing not to assistunnecessarily. Like the goal is
not actually getting over thetop of the triangle, but seeing

(04:56):
where the child is at today andletting them learn the limits of
their body.
also like their enormouscapability as well.
Then there's the first day ofpreschool or the first day of
school, the first day of highschool and beyond, like, we're
so excited for them. And yetthey go, we must. And we're just
trusting that that foundationthat we laid will serve them as

(05:17):
they venture out into the world.
And then with letting go comesincreasing independence,
independence that scaffoldedover time, like let's say, Take
riding a bike. First, they mightstart on a balanced bike. And
then like, they're learning toride a two wheeler bike, maybe
in a park, and then we startcycling side by side with them
on the roads, and then we mightmove to be behind them. And then

(05:39):
you know, by the time they're inhigh school, then they're
cycling themselves off toschool. So letting go means
building up these skills in ourchildren so that they're ready
for the next stages ofdevelopment.
Letting go means seeing them forwho they are right now on their
journey with us, not controllingthem. But there as they guide,

(06:01):
just like the poem kind of says,we can't be them or make them
their thoughts. I love usingMontessori observation to
discover every day with fresheyes who this child is, rather
than having like an agenda forthem, or thinking we know our
child so well that we overlookwho our child actually is today,
or that we want them to actuallythink like us.

(06:22):
And then letting go also meansletting them make mistakes and
learning from them. It could beas small as letting a ball from
from the table for a young childand allowing them to pick it up
themselves. And then they'llmaybe adjust how they keep the
ball on the table for next time.
Or perhaps they'll fall down.
And then we can pause to see ifthey just bounce back up again.
Often they do. Or a school agedchild who forgets their lunch,

(06:45):
like how often do you want tothink about dropping it off for
them. But instead letting themwork something out at school,
maybe they'll end up sharing afriend's lunch or finding
another way to solve the problemor they might go hungry. So
whilst it's really hard to seethem struggling, if they are
working out how to solveproblems, they're learning from
their mistakes. And they learnto take responsibility like if
they hurt someone or something.
So letting go means not tryingto run in and fix everything for

(07:08):
them. Definitely not abandoningthem, but providing them just
enough guidance and support inhard moments. They have to have
their own experiences too. So isletting go then is about giving
our child both those roots andwings. So with this strong
foundation, like that's theroots, they know that we will be
there to support them as much asnecessary. And then we step in

(07:30):
as little as possible to givethem those wings. So I hope
that's helpful to anyone who'sgoing through some letting go of
their own. And with that, let'sget into my conversation with
Barbara.
Hi everyone, Simone Davies hereand I am so delighted to be

(07:50):
sitting with two of my favoritepeople here my favorite
Montessori friends. Ferne,welcome all the way from
Australia. Nice to have youhere. It's so good to see you
and be with you and to do this.
And Barbara, thank you so muchfor joining us from the UK.
Thank you so much for having me.
It is such an opportunity toshare Montessori journey even

(08:11):
though it is virtually Yeah,absolutely. And I invited both
Ferne and Barbara not onlybecause they're some of my
favorite Montessori people, butbecause they're also Montessori
grandparents, and I think thatit will be beautiful to share
their perspective on theirMontessori parenting and
grandparenting journeys with us.
Just a quick introduction fen isresponsible for me becoming a
Montessori teacher. I'vementioned it before. But I

(08:34):
turned up at her playgroup withmy son who was 18 months old and
a belly full of baby. And oh,actually, well, maybe not. I'm
not sure where Emma was, shemaybe was just born. And I
became so fascinated byMontessori and it's where I
worked first in my Montessoriclassroom. And Barbara, I've
gotten to know a lot in the lastyear or so. And I she's shared

(08:57):
so much with the monstercommunity. She's now the
president of Montessori Europe,and her retirement has never
been busier. So we're so excitedthat you're going to get to
learn from them today. So I justwanted fun if you would like to
start by perhaps sharing alittle bit how Montessori has,
you know, impacted maybe yourparenting and grand parenting

(09:18):
journeys. Would you like tostart with that? Yes, I think
when when we arrived inAustralia, I had heard about
Montessori before, but myperspective on it was like it
was a weird thing before Iarrived in Australia, and then
when I arrived here, my mysister in law's little one was

(09:38):
at down under three, where Iwhat the school that I later
purchased and I went to observethere and, you know, you talk
about those specific points inyour life where life changes,
right? You know, those likesliding doors of opportunity,
and I was

Unknown (10:00):
I think I was just fell in love with Montessori. The day
I went, went there and observedthe little children, you know,
doing things for themselves. Andat the time, I was quite
disillusioned with traditionaleducation for my older children.
Unfortunately, none of them gotto do well, one of them did get
to do a little bit of Montessorilater, but and yeah, I've always

(10:22):
loved babies. So seeing thatperspective of children doing
things for themselves, it waslike, what I believed was
possible. existence. And, and Ihad the opportunity to, to work
with tanika while I wastraining, and I was sold, the

(10:43):
minute I saw toddlers in aMontessori environment.

Simone Davies (10:47):
And even though you didn't get your children to
go through Montessori schools,the way that you've parented
your children and now yourgrandchildren, it's really just
all Montessori.

Unknown (10:56):
Well, the impact on my own family is I left them with
my husband to go study in adifferent city, which meant that
for the first time, they weredoing things really for
themselves. I mean, theyliterally, you know, left
instructions on the washingmachine. And I tell people often
that when I came back fromtraining, I didn't take back the

(11:20):
washing, or the cooking.
wholeheartedly, actually, webegan rosters right from them,
you know, and everybody starteddoing their own washing from
that time on. So it made a hugeimpact in my own parenting of
changing the way I view childrenreally. And yeah, unfortunately,

(11:41):
they couldn't go to schools, butyou know, the home environments,
the biggest impact, right?

Simone Davies (11:53):
Absolutely. And now, Barbara, you've also had an
interesting Montessori journey.
And maybe you can touch on anypart of your work or your
parenting or grandparenting,whichever you prefer.

Barbara (12:03):
So for me, I was first introduced to Montessori when I
came to England in 1968. I atthat time, anybody who came from
the Czech Republic could notcome and work we had to, you
had, you could only be an aupair. So I live to visit a South
African family whose youngestdaughter went to a Montessori

(12:24):
School in London. So that's howI was introduced to the
Montessori idea. And I washugely impressed by what this
three year old and four year oldcould do, particularly the fact
that she was beginning to learnto read, because in the Czech
Republic, we had to read aloudas a group. That's how that was

(12:48):
the method of learning to read.
And the teacher would then say,and say, You read and you read,
and to this day, I am notcapable of writing, of reading
from a script. Because all thatfeeling of tension of now I'm
called to perform comes up.

Unknown (13:05):
So

Barbara (13:07):
I was impressed that this child just loved reading
and was able to do it sonaturally. And I lived with the
family for three or four years,and then I left but I stayed in
touch. And several years later,when the father died, he left me
money. And you know, it was ahugely generous gift. Because I

(13:31):
effectively I was a refugee ofthe 1968 uprising, and I really
had no resources apart from myown work. And I thought, how
should I spend this money, andhe loved children. And I
thought, actually, I would loveto go and learn to be a
Montessori teacher. By thattime, I was working in an art

(13:52):
gallery, and it was a very fancyjob and everybody said, Oh, how
can you want to leave this job?
To be a nursery school teacher?
Come on, but it absolutelychanged my life. The opportunity
of studying full time for oneyear. I absolutely relished. I

(14:13):
loved learning this, women andyoung girls from different parts
of the world. I loved the ideaof the freedom that Montessori
offered to the children. And forme, it was the biggest gift that
bloke has given me in terms ofdoing Montessori before we had

(14:35):
children.

Simone Davies (14:36):
Yeah, that must have been amazing to have that
knowledge and then have your ownchildren.

Barbara (14:40):
Absolutely. I've thought that I understood a
little bit more. It has madeparenting hugely more difficult,
because you know what you shoulddo as a teacher, but doing
living to the same expectationas a parent is so much more
difficult. She believes you havegot two small children closely

(15:02):
together. And so I'm, I havealways been anxious about doing
the right thing or not doing theright thing. And but now the
diamond Granny, I can reallyappreciate

Unknown (15:17):
all the

Barbara (15:19):
effort my daughter puts into her parenting I so respect
the way how she speaks to herchildren, something I could have
never achieved. And I hope thatthere's a tiny bit of that early
Montessori beginning in her as aparent of today. Not that she

(15:40):
would ever acknowledge it, butit doesn't matter. I just hope
there's a little bit of me inher as a parent.

Simone Davies (15:50):
Absolutely, I think it's fascinating. I mean,
for him, would you like to speakto that the difference between
being the parents and thegrandparents?

Unknown (15:58):
Well, I suppose I had the, I suppose the, the awesome
privilege of having my daughter,she was a single mum. And she
had a little one and she wasliving with us. So and I had the
school then. So I actuallystarted baby classes when she
was six months old. And so youknow, she went through the

(16:20):
toddler program, and then Aaronput her through the three to six
program as well. So she fell inlove with Montessori, as well.
And that is a huge blessing,right. And I speak to a lot of
parents who, you know, whoreally wish their grandparents
knew anything about Montessoriso. So that was, you know, that

(16:44):
was my introduction and having agrandchild in the home, where we
could literally do the homeenvironment in a Montessori way.
And, you know, in an extendedfamily, there was just there was
my husband loved it as well. Sothere was always somebody
watching for the next step ofdevelopment to give them

(17:06):
Montessori activities. So that'swhere I really I suppose honed
in my knowledge on babyMontessori like independence
from birth. And she was like, wecall her our Montessori
experiment, right? Because weliterally experimented with all
the materials. And because therewere three of us. And I didn't

(17:28):
have to do any of the hard worklike feeding thing. We, you
know, that has become a rolewith each one of my
grandchildren just, you know,having that time to be that
support person, and doMontessori on the side when
parents you know, parents are sobusy, they, they, you know, they
so we intense as parents, asBarbara said, getting it right,

(17:54):
you know, whereas thegrandparents, you have that
relaxed, you have that relaxeddisposition, that you're just
there to be observe and be asupport, and pick up the slack
as you would say, in SouthAfrica, you know, and it's just,

(18:17):
you know, I think my husband andI probably have had much more
fun, you know, grandparentingthen then we did with that age,
you know, when we wereparenting, because we had three
close together, you know, and,you know, the whole discipline,
the way of parenting back thenwas more of the, you know, spare

(18:41):
the rod spoil the child kind ofapproach to parenting. So, yeah,

Simone Davies (18:46):
and now Ferne, yo have how many grandchildren an
the ages

Unknown (18:50):
So seven...about to turn 17
about to turn 10 and then a 4,two and a half, and eight months
are my son's three who are andthey've all been, they all went
to Montessori, you know,Montessori 0 to 3 and planning
three to six as well for hisfamily. So

Simone Davies (19:15):
yeah, I think it is a calling right Montessori
and it if you just modelingMontessori principles in the
home, they are going to brushoff on others right. Absolutely.
Actually, I wrote down somewords that Barbara had written
about becoming a Montessorigrandparents. And you wrote
Barbara, for me becoming agrandmother has opened a door to

(19:37):
exploring childhood afresh. Andyou get to learn again about the
nature of young children observenow with an unhurried eyes and
tempered by a deeply felt loveand sense of belonging. It's not
merely the start of aneducation. It's more like
watching humanity itselfunfolding week by week, right in
front of me. Like how beautifulis that? That is so beautiful.

(19:57):
Yeah. It's like an awesomeprivilege.

Unknown (20:00):
It really is.

Barbara (20:00):
exactly it is such a privilege to be able to do that.
Because it is unhurried. And itis for the first time ever, that
I can be in the moment. I knowthat the two days when I am this
are grand daughters, they aretheir time, and nothing else

(20:21):
needs to be done, becauseeverything else can wait. And so
you notice these little nuances,you notice the little steps
towards independence, yourejoice in their capacity to be
able to tell you what they need.
And for us, my husband, too, isabsolutely loving the time and

(20:46):
the girls for our business. Butyou know, my most favorite time
is the Saturday night sleepover. Our almost four year old
has been coming for Saturdaynight's sleep over for the last
six months. And she just checksit I made the bed ready for us
to share. And she says to hermum, granny is my favorite

(21:12):
person outside the immediatefamily because she's warm. And
I'm sure that his to do this thetime when we wake up together
and we curl up together and havea lovely time. So yes. And it
reminds me we have all this whatmy daughter was a very poor

(21:33):
sleeper. So I have put her tobed and often fell asleep with
her all the way up to the age ofsix or seven. So for me having
that closeness with this fee onagain, is just such a beautiful
thing. And I'm now thinking howwill I manage when the two of
them are here? Where will I fitin the bed between them?

Unknown (21:57):
We had we've had all five of us
have a sleepover on the samenight. We're not sure we'll do
that. You know, it's exhausting.
I know.
But, um, you know, when my mylittle grandson his four comes
over, He really hates sleeping,you know, and he asked for, you

(22:19):
know, so I generally have two ofthem at once and you know, so
the 4am they climb in bed withus we've used Luckily, we still
got the king bed, you know, sothey can all come in. But I
wanna make a tent with my legs,you know, their favorite thing
is to go into the tent. So um,

Simone Davies (22:38):
yeah grandparenting sounds like so
much fun.

Unknown (22:43):
Definitely fun and then when you get exhausted you just
hand them back Simone.

Simone Davies (22:48):
So um Barbara I love the stories that you tell
now with these fresh unhurriedeyes you know the things that
you're observing and seeing thisthings like climbing trees or
the baby that's just startedcrawling and exploring the
world. Would you like to sharesome of those moments with us?

Barbara (23:06):
It's really ironic because um, the home environment
is really prepared for thechildren this very much the
Montessori emphasis of low badand children having covered this
their own utensils andeverything. And all the toys are
being displayed on lit in littlecubby holes so they can choose

(23:29):
what they want to play with,which is something I have so
enjoyed watching to see whatwhat they will choose. Every so
often I introduce a littleMontessori activity, you know,
just think of my birthday. Youknow, it's so ironic. My
granddaughter often refuses tohave anything to do with her

(23:53):
mother, as if she knew that I'manxious for her to use it. So
she she would say Granny, Idon't like it. But she now goes
to a Montessori classroom andshe tells me the Montessori
teacher you know, the teachershows me how to do it because

(24:14):
she's Montessori. She is so youput heavy emphasis is you were a
special person, because you wereMontessori is just so very, very
funny. But I think that, forexample, both of the girls are
incredibly physical and theirmom got them one of those frames

(24:38):
that they can climb up and down.
And that has been something thathas been part of their life from
the very beginning. So thesecond baby who is now 14
months, actually can climb overthe little frame and come down
and be very, very happy and shewill apply I'm on a stool and

(24:59):
say, jump, jump, and she expectsme to help her to jump. So it's
what I have really learnedwatching the two of them is how
fundamental movement is to humanexistence. And I think it is for
this reason that I was very keenthat neither one of them goes to

(25:22):
a provision for babies, becausein England, we don't have proper
infant communities. And I justwouldn't want their needs to
move to be curtailed by thelimitations of not having enough
hands to support, it's not thatwe need to do anything, but you

(25:43):
still need to be vigilant.
Because there are moments justfor them to know that you are
there if anything's needed inorder to build that courage and
have a go. And that is to me tohave been able to support that,
for both of the girls has beenincredible. And as a result, the

(26:09):
second one is just so feisty inher movements. She's there
alongside the four year old F inevery single moment. And so much
more capable, because ofobserving, I also what I have
learned and children observe sointently. What did the adults

(26:31):
does, we always underestimateour influence, because every
little little thing they see,and they will copy or mimic, you
know, that need to imitate inthe beginning is so so powerful,
and the capacity to observe. Orthe granddaughter will notice in

(26:54):
a book when a child is said in adrawing in an illustration, he
or she will ask why is it likethis a tiny, tiny little detail,
which I have totally passedover? You know, yes, I know,
there is the chart, but shenotices every little detail. So

(27:15):
I think the capacity to absorbthat Montessori talks about so
well, is there from the momentwhen they are born, and so have
the time to give them the time.
To be able to absorb to be ableto move is the biggest gift we
can give to the children whenthey are so little.

Simone Davies (27:33):
Yeah, I think you're inspiring all of us to
keep observing and keepwatching. And to slow down. Even
if we're parents, we will takethose things away. And Ferne
would you like to share some oyour things that you've see
running baby classes

Unknown (27:46):
used to tell parents you know about when children are
crawling, that is when theydrawn to stairs, right. And if
they can get confident onstairs, when they crawling,
they'll tend to be veryconfident walkers on stairs. But
our societies are keeping themaway for longer and longer
periods. One of my pet hates isMontessori tower. And because it

(28:13):
doesn't really give that muchfreedom, right. And it's used
for an extended period past whenchildren really need something
that that's protect that, thatprotective. Whereas if you watch
six month olds that are givenopportunities to climb stairs,
we've had big staircases in allof our environments when we've
had small grandchildren andthey've caused anxiety in the

(28:35):
parents. So I took on the roleof introducing all my
grandchildren to stairs whenthey were six months so that by
eight months, the parents couldactually relax in the lounge
because now they had crawlersthat were confident, confident
on stairs, right. And I was justwatching my little and that
little one yesterday who hasn'tbeen introduced to them very

(28:58):
much yet, but when you know thatthey as soon as they start and
are interested, you can givethem the first lesson as she sat
looking at the stairs standingup bouncing on the first one,
but she wasn't interested ingoing up them. But later her dad
was down eight of the stairs. SoI gave her first lesson climbing

(29:21):
down the stairs to where herdaddy was, you know. And I love
that about Montessori that theprincipal is the best time for a
child to learn as when they'reinterested. You know, and so,
yeah, and toileting is the otherthing where I think grandparents
who have the knowledge can besuch so instrumental in

(29:44):
supporting something that canoften be challenging and taking
a lot of time and definitely away to when your daughter in
law's heart

Simone Davies (29:54):
if you take over some of the toileting

Unknown (29:57):
Yeah, I'll change the nappy. Oh,
You know? So yeah, it has been away of really cementing
relationships, not only with mygrandchildren, but also with the
in law children.

Simone Davies (30:13):
Thank you. I'm actually going back to movement
as well in the importance ofmovement. Barbara, I remember
you saying that your daughterand some of that communication
that you really respect, youknow, she's been teaching the
grandchildren to say, likeasking them, does your body feel
safe right now? And now thegrandchildren will actually say,
No, it's not safe, I need help.
And they actually know when theyfeel safe and when they don't.

(30:33):
So I think that's a hugelyimportant part for us to take
away is the movement and themtrusting their bodies and those
kind of things.

Barbara (30:43):
Yes, that has been one of the key features of her
language that whatever she saysshe always directs to the
children. So equally, they havebeen introduced to baby led
weaning from the very beginning.
So they have been feedingthemselves and managing their
lunch, and all their food. Andat the end of the meal, she

(31:03):
always says, Does your body tellyou that you have had enough. So
again, learning to understandthat you need to listen to
yourself and be guided by whatit is. But I had such funny
experience on Monday afternoon.
The baby toddler really is verydifferent kinds of eater to her

(31:29):
sister. And she doesn't needvery much during the day, but
she needs to have a big meal atabout 430 in the afternoon. And
she was so hungry, after we havebeen outside and playing that
she said herself is her fork.
But she passed me the spoon tofeed her between between her
forks, because I have never seenthat she was I get it, she

(31:56):
passed it once and I gave itback to her. And then she passed
it again, she wanted me to feedher alongside the pork, which
was just incredible. That sheshe already knows what her body
needs, because she's never madeto. I think that baby led
weaning can be quite messy. Andit can be quite wasteful, in

(32:19):
that you know your offer and ifthe children don't eat it, and
they don't eat it, or you caneat it instead. But that's
another issue that I have, butnot my daughter, she can leave
it. But she they know what theyneed an eye. To me, there's two

(32:42):
aspects is to Is it safe? Doesyour body feel safe? And does
your body have enough, actually,to me that shows such enormous
respect for the child and thetrust in the child's capacity.
And those are the two things Iabsolutely loved about
Montessori when I first startedto read the secret of childhood,

(33:05):
because I was brought up in acommunity more in a society
which expected you to obeyirrespective of what you may
have been thinking about.

Unknown (33:19):
I remember we had a waterfowl, you know, one of
those self water stations forKayla, and my oldest
granddaughter at home from whenshe was just starting to stand
up. So she learnt you know, shehad learned to drink from a
glass at about five months. Andso by the time she was walking,
she could really fill the glassalready, you know, with you

(33:41):
know, andI just remember, we never had to
ask her whether she was thirstybecause she had the capacity to
go and get the drink. And lateryou would find her time, you
know, I'm thirsty. You know, andshe's always been an avid water
drinker, which is another giftthat you can give them when you

(34:05):
know you have given them thatopportunity to have the autonomy
around, as you said that selfregulation around food so that
they they're not looking to theadult to solve waiting on the
adult to feed them and waitingon the adult to give them drinks
so that that that personalresponsibility has been taken

(34:29):
away son later. They often don'tdrink enough because they wait.
It's still waiting for adults tobe offering them things you
know, instead of actuallymeeting those needs themselves.
It's such a gift.

Barbara (34:44):
Our youngest toddler absolutely loves water. And she
already knows I always thoughtPhil, I don't have a fountain so
I have these little cups orlittle glasses that I leave
around the house and she I justadore it. She stops and she
takes too little hands and shesits it so beautifully. You

(35:06):
know, it's such a mark ofcompetence or personal
competence to be able to do itwell. And, you know, just think
what it does for the sense ofself and well being, you know, I
can do it. And, and good at it.
It's, I just rejoice in that.

(35:26):
Absolutely rejoice in it.

Simone Davies (35:28):
I think it's so different to what a lot of
grandparents are probablysaying, as the grandchildren
come to visit, which is becareful and don't do that. And
I'll get it for you. I actuallyI wanting to over parent them
because they have the timeinstead of stepping back to take
in those moments and joys. So Iguess, do you ever get the
question, you know, like, I wantmy grandparents to be like, you
like your Montessori, granny?
Like, how can I get aMontessori? Granny, do you have

(35:49):
any tips for parents who maybearen't finding it quite so easy
to have Montessori at home andMontessori with their family?
Um,

Unknown (36:00):
it is one of the questions. I mean, at my school,
you know, of course, because Ihad my granddaughter there, the
mothers, but it would on a dailybasis, say, Oh, you know, your
daughter is so, so lucky. That,you know, to have you and to be,
you know, supporting it meansthat you like, even got a second
set of parents, do you know whatI mean? Giving Montessori

(36:23):
principles The advice I give toparents, because it's a bit
similar to your disciplinemethods or whatever, you know,
parents have differentdiscipline methods. And then,
you know, they, their parentslook after them. And they say,
why would they listen, they tellthem, they are good girl all the
time. And, you know, can theyjust stop calling them a good

(36:44):
girl and, and I've said, youknow, take a step back. And
start, I think if we start usingempathy, if they start using
empathy with their parents, andactually sharing with their
parents, what they

Barbara (36:59):
did love

Unknown (37:00):
about what their parents did with them, you know,
there would be more openness.
But I mean, I have thought for along time to run a workshop for
grandparents. Because it is sucha beautiful way to not have to
change your whole life whereyou're, you know, you can set up
a little corner so easily inyour environment, you know, and

(37:22):
I did do a consult with onegrandmother, who is whose
children weren't even allowingher to look after the children.
Because they were so concernedabout her ornaments. And so I
just started to buy a fewMontessori things. And it just
revolutionized this whole timeshe was having with her

(37:42):
children, with hergrandchildren, you know, in
terms of, she felt useless,because they didn't like the way
she did things. You know what Imean? And, and so, yeah,
empowering grandparents by justalso having the confidence, the
hard conversation, I think ifparents could have the

(38:04):
conversation, I really respectthe way you did things. And this
is the way we would like to dothem. Can you support us in
this? And when parents havetaken that boldness, because it
is hard to do that? It has madea huge difference, you know, to
be able to setting up thegrandparents house for
toileting, you know all thesethings? Because I think it's not

(38:27):
what you say it's how you howyou approach the conversation
that's going to, you know,whether it goes well or not

Simone Davies (38:36):
so right, because I think a lot of the
grandparents feel criticized,well, didn't you like the way
that I was raised? And actually,every human just wants to be
seen, heard and understood, andthat kind of thing. So to
actually come back to empathyand treat the parents in the
same way, but also acknowledge,yeah, that they just want to do
it differently. And I think it'sreally sad to actually hear when
we shut off grandparents,because they're not doing it in

(38:58):
a Montessori way, becausethere's so much richness that a
grandparent can add to thechild's life, if that's a
possibility. And we understandobviously, that not everyone has
grandparents that are available.
And Barbara, do you haveanything that you tell other
families? Well,

Barbara (39:16):
it's a bit too difficult, because I don't
really want people to think thatI know more than others. And I
don't want them to feel kind ofanxious about being around me.
And I also felt that I havealways said to my daughter, if

(39:38):
you have children, I wouldreally love to help you. looking
after them because we didn'thave that support. None of my
family were around so we werevery much a nuclear family and
we had to rely on ourselves andI think that it gives children
so much richness to have theextended family Have the

(40:00):
grandparents. And I think thatgrandparents add another
dimension. And the childrenunderstand absolutely fully that
it is not what happens at home.
This is a granny. So Ffion knowsthat in the kitchen, there is a
cupboard where I may have atreat for her. She always wants
to examine what the treat is, ofcourse, I'm very careful that

(40:25):
the treats are in line with whatis x kind of acceptable within
the family. But I think that allthose little things just enrich
the children's lives. So well,my husband makes tiny little
things out of wood for, for herlittle play scenarios. And she,
she told him on Sunday, I'm sohappy you made me this animal

(40:49):
enclosure, it is really good.
And my husband hasn't stoppedtalking about it since since
Sunday, he said, I'm so glad shereally has come to appreciate
that I have made it for her. SoI think that we can grandparents
are the dimension to thechildren. But I also try, it's

(41:15):
almost inevitable that whateverI do, or my husband does, will
be irritating to my daughtersometimes and her partner, if
that's that's just life, andthat's the nature of any
relationship. But we really tryhard to be respectful of the
things that they wish to do fortheir children. Because I

(41:36):
remember, when my daughter wasthree, and our son was quite
small, I took them to visit mymother and I heard her say to
somebody on the telephone, don'tinvite them, the children are
very spoiled. And I wasincredibly hurt. Because she
totally missed the point of whatI tried to give to my children,

(41:57):
this sense of freedom and senseof being and of course, the
children, you know, up to theage of six, you need to
understand they are developingthat you have to give lots of
leeway with some parameters, butnot too many. And the fact that
she couldn't understand it, thefact that she couldn't
understand that they were notbrought up in the same way as I

(42:20):
was brought up was I foundreally, really hurtful. So I
have remembered that I must notbe critical in or try not to be
it's inevitable that sometimesone will say things, but I to be
really respectful of what yourchildren are trying to do with
their children. Because being aparent is such a huge

(42:42):
responsibility. Nobody preparesus for it, we might have had
some positive experiences, butit still is a huge, huge
challenge. And we need tosupport the parents as much as
possible in what they are tryingto do. Yeah,

Unknown (43:00):
I just spent you know, I think one of the big things I
learned, I mean, you've got totransition into the fact that
when your children are adultsthink they're going to have
different ways. And they are intheir partnership negotiate, you
know, navigating to differenthouseholds, and how are we going
to bring up children. And, um,you know, as Barbara says, being

(43:24):
a support, we need none of uslike advice when we are asking,
asking for it. Right? And, andour children don't want it
either. And I found, you know,if you talk only 5% of the
conversation with your adultchildren, they ask you more than

(43:47):
if you spend more time talking.
Right? Because, you know, it'sthat whole empathy thing, the
more you listen, the more peoplefeel loved and accepted and
respected. And the more likely Iwrote down here. If you talk
lists, you've got a much betterchance that they're going to ask
for some advice. Because youknow, when you don't give it

(44:12):
then they're like, What's wrongwith me? And we as when you give
it, there's less likelihood,especially when they didn't ask
for it, that they'll evenlisten, even if they think
you're right. You know, it mighttake and it would take a lot
longer. I mean, we negotiatingtransitions, right from birth on
weight with our children. Youknow, every stage of

(44:36):
development, we've got to changethat relationship a bit. And I
tell a lot of adults that, youknow, I've spoken to a lot of
people that have lostrelationships with adult
children, because they don'taccept the partners. You know,
they don't love their partnersand the best thing you can do
for your child is love theirpartner. You know, And when you

(44:57):
do do that you gain yourchildren, they're not going to
move away from you if they don'thave to choose between you and
their partner. Because they'llchoose the part that you know.
And I've heard parents doingsuch weird things like going and
opening pantries and checkingout what their son's being fed.

(45:20):
And it's not. So advice don'tunless you ask for it.

Simone Davies (45:30):
I think that's really wise. Because that must
be so hard when you actuallyknow so much from all of these
years working in Montessori andseeing that there might be
another way and yet saying lessso that then they come to you to
ask for the advice, I think is areally, you know, beautiful
thing to see. And I think alsothat letting go of my children
owning the fourth planetdevelopment. They're not having
their own children yet, but Ican imagine it's another letting

(45:52):
go when they're actuallyparenting their own children. Do

Barbara (45:55):
you find that Barbara?
Absolutely. And I think whatFerne's said about loving the
r partners being such a good wy to open the doors for a growi
g relationship. I think thats really so so important. Yeah,
I love that. It's the same ways in the teenage years. You m

(46:18):
y think lots of things, but yu say very little, because it
s not very helpful. Yes, I had.
I had a friend who said, just ty to sip your lips think it b
t don't say it. And I think tht was the best advice I had
o managing teenagers. And I thik that idea of loving the partne

(46:43):
. So did you accept that choie and also this idea of trying n
t to see the children yor projection of you, but seei
g them as an individual, you kno, that idea, you see the baby, f
r as a person from the moment thy are born, not as some a creatu
e that has come from your body,I think that is so important

(47:06):
n establishing those meaningfl relationships. I think that
s really, really importan

Simone Davies (47:12):
So I think that this is really interesting as
well, because, you know, you'veseen children through different
generations. And I'm kind ofcurious how things may have
changed. You know, Dr.
Montessori says that the needsof the child always the same. So
Montessori should work, youknow, whether it was 100 years
ago or today, but Technology andSociety and things like that
have changed. So Ferne, have yonoticed any differences i

(47:34):
children, or how Montessori castill deal with the changes, yo
know, still meet the needs ochildren with the changes tha
are going on around in the worlaround us

Unknown (47:44):
You know, I still think relationship is going to be the
crux of any human beingsexistence, right? And you can't
have relationships throughtechnology. with people, you
have to communicate with people.
So whatever the technology was,I mean, we had television,
right? Like there's always beensomething to distract from

(48:05):
communicating with each other.
Right? I think now, parents justhave to be that much more
proactive. You know, I mean, mygranddaughter, my phone dropped
on the floor that she's eightmonths old. The next minute I

(48:26):
turned around, she's literallyholding the phone. Doing this,
she's eight months, she seenpeople turn around do selfies.
And they they live what they seeand they learn. So we never
going it's hard to navigatetechnology in this environment.

(48:48):
I don't think it should bebrought into Montessori schools,
to a large extent, the base thatMontessori schools are giving
children where they are learningto do problem solving and that
are only going to stand in goodstead for for them to be able to
navigate the difficulties inlife. I mean, there's a huge
breakdown in familyrelationships right now post

(49:10):
COVID. You know, all over theworld because they've been
thrown into these, like apressure cooker situation,
right? where parents are inenvironments without you know, I
spoke to someone in Spainyesterday. It's like a pressure
cooker and relationships aren'tcoping, you know, because they
haven't got the skills, theproblem solving skills to

(49:32):
navigate through such crisis,you know, and so they think, Oh,
we don't love each otheranymore, or whatever, you know,
or it's just too hard. So, yeah,I don't think
I think, you know, I've tried,I've helped a lot of families
minimize their technology in inways because they thought they

(49:54):
shouldn't Oh, well, he justneeds to watch the screen while
he eats. Otherwise, he doesn'teat You know, things like that.
And I said, Well, do you wantthem to watch your screen? No, I
want to talk to my children. Sojust so just pack your screen
away, you know, that sometimesparents need to be given
permission to this, becausethey're almost feeling they
depriving their children of thelatest learning gadgets, just

(50:18):
like we would have felt, youknow, other things, you know,
getting the latest toy is what'sloving towards your child, you
know. So I think minimizingtechnology is the best parenting
advice you can give them, youknow, and by doing that, you
have to model it yourself. Youhave to have technology free

(50:39):
meal time and family time.

Barbara (50:41):
Yeah, I absolutely agree that technology is such a
powerful tool. And it is ourbehavior which demonstrate to
the children that it isimportant, it's in our pockets
all the time. toddler when shewas a baby at eight months, was
pulling the phone out of hermother's back pocket, because

(51:02):
she saw it there. And we havemade a very conscious decision
to minimize the use of ouraccess to them, the mobile phone
or anything, but what I findinteresting at the moment is
that there are lots ofMontessori nurseries in the UK
who record the children'sprogress using iPads. So this

(51:26):
becomes, again, a tool ofimportance. And I have had an
iPad that I have never connectedto the internet. And my
granddaughter found it in mydesk. And she was just amazed
that I had the same thing as herteachers. And she, she comes and

(51:47):
she knows how to turn it on. Sheknows how to check if it is
charged properly or when needsto be charged. And then she can
do some notes on it. So she cantype in letters into the machine
because that's all that it willdo. And I could see that for her

(52:07):
initially, this was sheidentified this the teachers in
her classroom, and she wouldplay this in for 20 minutes, and
then she would believe it. Andnowadays she she's might look at
it perhaps once a week or so.
But it's it has lost itsimportance important. So it was
a stage that she has used inorder to make a connection

(52:29):
between our house and herexperience in the nursery. And I
think that is we should reallytalk about the teachers in the
nursery much more about whatthat iPad represents to the
child, it represents control, itrepresents power, you know, and

(52:53):
therefore, they want to they allwant to be like us. So they will
try to mirror it if it is if itis available. But I have also
got a friend with whom I workwho is called when to Lin her
daughter rides a horse and myfamily are very interested in

(53:15):
animals. So I have shown Ffionlittle snippets of Wendelien's
daughter riding a horse. Andthis whole scenario has now
become part of her game. So shehas got three animals, they are
all horses. They've got twolittle, little people who leads
and they are called Wendelienand Rose. And, and so I am

(53:38):
learning how the child's kind ofreal experiences or experiences
of things that are meaningful,can really be integrated into
their play, and become animportant opportunity to learn
about horses and how to care forthem. And really, this idea that

(54:01):
the three and four year oldneeds to begin to roleplay and
needs to develop play scenarioshas become really such an
important element of myobservation of my of my four
year old alongside these problemsolving skills, because the
other day them I said, I madelittle pigtails on her door and

(54:24):
she said, I said I made yourpony I made give her ponytails
and she said no, granted, theyare pigtails. So I said what's
the difference between a tailand a ponytail? I don't
understand. And she said it'ssimple. The ponytail is bigger
and it is one the pigtails aresinner and they are two. Now

(54:47):
could you have had a betterdescription from a child who is
not even full. But it reallyshows you how, how much they
understand if they have thelanguage to explain it. I
think that the giving childrentools of language is, alongside
the movement is really the mostimportant than Montessori is

(55:10):
chapters on language developmentare so powerful in understanding
how it gets the child's tools tobe understood. I think yeah,

Unknown (55:22):
I think that under three Montessori language
materials are one of the bestkind of tools or activities
grandparents could have. I mean,you know, just putting just the
simple thing of putting yourkitchen utensils while you're
cooking in a basket for the, youknow, for the six month old, and
simplifying those kinds ofthings. It's, it's the

(55:45):
practicalities of Montessorieducation, are so helpful in the
home environment, right to makelife not only are so rich for
the child, but so much moresimple. And you don't need a lot
of equipment, you know, parentsneed only about 10% of the stuff

(56:07):
they buy for children, right toreally give them a rich
knowledge. And when I do homeconsults, he literally normally
throw out 90% of what parentshave on the shelves, and they
feel like a weights been liftedoff them, you know, that, oh, my
goodness, I just have to observewhat they learning and put three

(56:28):
or four activities out that theyactually are interested in. And
that's going to be enough, youknow, and plus all that, you
know,Simone, your trainer used to say
food isn't it is an opportunity,what an occasion for education,
Judi Orion, and, you know, allmy grandchildren just love

(56:48):
working alongside us in thekitchen, we've got pictures of
them all, as toddlers, you know,stirring spaghetti making
salads, you know, all of thosethings on the two step stool. So
yeah, I think, you know,practical life. Next to
practical life, you don't reallyneed that much more between

(57:11):
gardening and kitchen work, youknow, that's kind of, you know,
gives them a very richfoundation for confidence and
self esteem.

Barbara (57:22):
I absolutely agree the opportunity to help around in
the kitchen or be around whileyou're doing things is so I
remember when my daughter wastiny, we lived in a very, very
small flat, and I had to sit herin the sink, so that she
wouldn't be able to chop hervegetables whilst I was chopping

(57:45):
my vegetables. And she became soproficient, she was the best
celery chopper I have ever had.
And equally, my oldestgranddaughter, she can break
eggs into a cake, like I havenever seen she can do it more
efficiently than I can. And oncemore, because we then dry the

(58:08):
shells and we crush them to puton our allotment. That whole
cycle of taking every part ofthe eye again, benefiting
somebody around you is I reallylove that. And she remembers you
know, she says Remember to drythose granny because I will need

(58:28):
to smash them next time I come.
And those are the kinds oflittle jobs that they come to be
associated this coming to ourhouse, which I think that's the
gift of the grandparenting thenyou can create tiny little
activities for the children thatare then become synonymous with

(58:53):
coming to your house.

Simone Davies (58:54):
I think you have such a luxury because as a
parent, we're worried are youever going to learn to read ever
going to you know, learn theirmaths and instead you're just
let's do language by just namingeverything in our kitchen as
we're preparing the foodtogether? And do you think that
that's easier as a grandparentto let go of the and you've seen
it happen like your children didgrow? They did learn to toilet

(59:14):
and they did learn to read andthey did learn you know, all
those kinds of things. Barbara,

Barbara (59:18):
what do you think? And I remember standing in the
delicatessen when my childrenwere small talking to a friend
who had a child of the same ageabout the toileting there was a
older lady in front of us said,ladies Don't worry, they will
not be in nappies by the timethey are 10. That's a such a

(59:39):
fantastic advice. It will happenwhen the child is ready Of
course we need to help them buteach child will be ready at a
different time. So just I thinkthat Montessori is idea of the
natural unfolding or spontaneousunfolding of child's development

(01:00:01):
is such a wonderful idea.
Because the rhythm of everychild will be slightly
different, the policy is verysimilar, but the rhythm of it
and the speed of it will be sodifferent. And again, it's to do
with accepting our parents, ourchildren for who they are, not
whom we would like them to be.
And I suppose the most difficultthing is not to compare the

(01:00:23):
first child to the second child,because they are each different.
And, you know, like, I alreadydone it. In our conversation
today, I said, Our youngestgrandchild eats so well, and it
is her pattern of eating is verydifferent to, to our older
grandchild. It is, that's thereality of it. But for the older

(01:00:47):
child, that is already acomparison, isn't it? If she
heard me say that, she wouldsay, Granny, I, I do like my
spaghetti, you know, over, shewould remind me that he was not
that different, there werethings that mattered to her
also. So perhaps just acceptingthe children for who they are.

(01:01:10):
And the uniqueness that theybring to our life and the gifts
they bring to our lives is soimportant.

Simone Davies (01:01:19):
And Ferne, do yo find it more, like easier as
grandparent to let go of thoslearning milestones and thing
like that, and really just allothat

Unknown (01:01:26):
I just think there's just opportunity. Yeah, like,
you don't even think of learningmilestones, really, I just think
you you're present in, I thinkyour focus is having a
relationship with the child,which, you know, is one thing
that I would have loved to, youknow, if you could re redo your

(01:01:48):
parenting, hey, Barbara, if youcould go back and correct all
the mistakes you made, you know,one of the things that I would
do is be just more present that,you know, I mean, I was a kind
of mother that used to play andlet them play in the mud and not
worry about messing things. Butthere was still that wanting to

(01:02:11):
get it, right. Like Barbarasaid, you know, you have this
intense thing that it's all upto me, I think, especially as a
mum, you know, to get it, right.
Whereas as a, as a, as agrandparent, your your focus
shifts to, I mean, for me, itjust became, I really want to be
a grandmother that my grandkidsknow, and have an individual

(01:02:34):
relationship with, whereas Iremember visiting grandparents,
and you you are, it had to be onyour best behavior, you know,
you had to make sure that youdidn't spill anything and didn't
do this and didn't do that. And,and didn't do the next thing.
And, you know, I mean, after onebad shot, like, this is a tall
order to be able to have thesame kind of rape relationship

(01:02:56):
and involvement in mygrandchildren's lives, as I had
with the first one, you know,but you can do it, because if
you, if you look at them asindividuals, there are beautiful
things that they each would loveto do with you, you know, like
with my nine year old, wecollecting all the bottles, they
get 10 cents at the moment andgoing in the garage, and then

(01:03:18):
I've made that something thatI'll do with him and take him to
the Depo and, you know,something that parents wouldn't
do not for the 10 cents for eachbottle, whereas I'm getting
everyone, you know, just theboxes getting full and for that,
and, you know, cooking with him,he loves to cook with his with
my husband, you know, you know,cutting the the Herbes for the

(01:03:38):
meat meals, those kind ofthings, you know, taking my
granddaughter for a drive now inher car, you know, yeah, this
this things, it's reallyimportant. You have to be
proactive. As a grandparent, youcan't expect your children to
bring your, their children toyou to give that them you or

(01:03:58):
relationship with theirchildren. Right. Because that
they're each so unique. Youcan't actually develop a
relationship with fourgrandchildren all at once at the
same time in an afternoon whenyou're having a meal with the
whole family. So I you know, Imean that's the richness, the

(01:04:20):
fact that, you know, Barbarasays you're being their favorite
person is is a wonderful thingto be, you know, one of the
other favorite people, you know,like my grandson is Susie's
leaving, you know what, I don'twant to leave you. And then I
say, Oh, it's so hard. You wantto be with mommy and you want to

(01:04:42):
be with granny. And that youknow, it's it's very, it's very
beautiful. You just got torelish the moments.

Barbara (01:04:54):
My daughter said before serin was born. I'm just
anxious. You will not love heras much as you love Ffion. And I
said, That's not possible, ofcourse, we will love her. And
yes, the loving relationship hasunfolded. This her as the person

(01:05:16):
she is this robust, sturdy childwho wants to be present in
everything, and we love her forher energy and for who she is.
So yes, I think that that havingthe privilege of being the
special person for the differentreasons for each one of your
grandchildren, I think it meansthat we have developed some kind

(01:05:42):
of relationship or somethingthat is meaningful to them. And
I think that is really importantin, in what we try to create how
we try to help our children, butfor me in the recent
conversations, the one questionthat my daughter came to me with

(01:06:02):
was, Do you really think thatchildren have lost on learning
because there's in the UK, thereis this huge agenda, then the
children have missed a wholeyear of their life. And I said,
Don't be ridiculous, childrenare learn all the time. And they
have learned about COVID thingswhich we have never known

(01:06:22):
because we haven't had toexperience that. But having
recognizes that the child learnsfrom absolutely everything, you
cannot limit opportunities tolearn, I happen, that whole
agenda of missing missing out onwhat. And I know that people say
that children who are living invery difficult circumstances,

(01:06:45):
miss out. But it doesn't meanthat they don't stop learning,
they still learn. And sadly,maybe the experiences are not
what we would like them to be.
But the learning doesn't stop.
It's part of childhood. Welearn, we experience life, and

Ferne (01:07:05):
we learn from it. And also most of us grew more out of
the tough experiences in ourlives than the easy time. I
mean, if you have gone withouteducation for a year, it's much
more likely that you're going tohave, you know, an appreciation
for what education is, you know,or what alone time it is, you

(01:07:29):
know, all of the things thatthey've had to do without in
difficult circumstances, youknow, sometimes, you know, the
problems in society we having isthat, you know, the last couple
of generations in some countrieshaven't had any hardships, you
know, they haven't had wars oranything to deal with, that
they're not risk takers. Becausedifficulties, they haven't got

(01:07:53):
the emotional resilience toactually deal with, with
difficulties, you know. So, asyou said, Barbara, you know,
every everything that happens inour lives, you know, is is we're
learning from and, and, youknow, my mom and dad took me up
for three months for an overseastrip when I was nine, just

(01:08:16):
because they didn't have anyoneto look after me, you know,
while they wind, and I, I, thatexperience of traveling around
Europe, even a first child in myfamily to travel in a jumbo jet.
And that really shaped my life,you know, in terms of the way I
think, you know, broadened myperspective, it made me be able

(01:08:39):
to deal with migration later inmy life, you know, I mean, all
of these things, you know, theythey are the richness of a
child's education.

Barbara (01:08:51):
And education is not only what we learn at school, I
think that that's the message Iwould like to give to parents
that the opportunity to learnthis, your parents, the things
that they love, and that theyenjoy, will become part and
parcel of the chance like, theymay initially resent it. Because

(01:09:13):
my children when they were kindof in the second plane of
development, would complainbitterly about having to go on
walks, but the joy that I havethis walking, visit them now. I
can trace back to the early dayswhen we walked together. And I
think that, you know, there is ahuge amount that parents can

(01:09:39):
give to their children in thefirst six years of life before
they start going to schoolbecause before other influences
come. And I just would like theparents to believe that they
have got the power to reallygive their values and their
special killings and theimportant things to their
children because that is Thegift you are giving them for

(01:10:01):
life. Nobody is going to take itaway. Yeah, that's beautiful. It
actually

Simone Davies (01:10:05):
reminds me, Barbara of on your website, you
have the men dollar of life.

Barbara (01:10:09):
Yes.

Simone Davies (01:10:11):
Tell us about the Mandela life.

Barbara (01:10:12):
Well, I've been very fortunate because for my
grandparenting podcasts on whichI have become very overwhelmed
by other work that I have notcommitted, contributed to the
minute but when I started, Iwanted to share this idea that
life is many faceted and verybeautiful. And I have been very

(01:10:33):
fortunate that David Gettman, whhelped me to set up the website
actually, it is for me, thmandala became like
kaleidoscope. Do you remembethose kaleidoscopes that yo
turn around, and you get thiexquisit arrangement. So if yo
hover the cursor over thmandala, it will do it wil
continue to change. And that, tme is what life is all about. I

(01:10:58):
continues to change, icontinues to evolve, an
continues to give us thopportunity to learn from ou
environment from our childrenbut also about ourselves. And i
the recent months, when I havsince I have retired, I hav
felt this huge joy of havinmore opportunity to learn fro

(01:11:22):
all of you guys. Life is srich, to be able to engage i
these conversations. Yeah,think that yes. So this idea o
continuing joyfully anCuriously, as we move throug
life, irrespective of whicplane of development we are, is

(01:11:44):
is really important

Unknown (01:11:46):
You know, you know, the journey of life. Yeah, I share
with parents, you know, whenthey, when you intense in that
first plane, you know that zeroto three parents think these
problems that, you know,parenting problems, this is the
worst of the parenting problemsI'm ever gonna have, you know,
and I just say to them, like,you know, we need to get skills,

(01:12:08):
parents don't need more love,you know, we actually need
skills to navigate the changes,because our children are growing
and developing so quick, it'shard to keep up with a child's
development. And if you haverecently met a mom with 12
children, I saw her standingthere with the 12, children aged
18 to one, and I just went myouth just been, like, I know

(01:12:35):
ow, you know how muchegotiate, like trying to keep
hose balls up with fourhildren was, you know, and, but
t's, yeah, if you can just beresent with your children and
ctually enjoy the ride. Andome reason, most of us won't
are, you know, you can't takenything with you, you know, you

(01:12:57):
an only take people with yound the relationship, and you
an only leave a legacy of whatou've, you've built into people
hrough relationship, right. So,ou know, taking time to have
ore fun, as families, I think,nd having a, you know,
omething that a bigger visionor your families as well. I

(01:13:18):
hink I love that idea of Stevenovey's. But if you start with th
mission and the families oworking towards a missio
together, you know, that isgenerational thing that happens
you know, through familiesleaving something behind for th
next generation to learn fro

Simone Davies (01:13:39):
so beautiful. But I think what I've taken away
from this, you know,conversation has been this gift
of time that you get to give toyour grandchildren, the gift of
connection. And I'm so gratefulto both of you for sharing your
beautiful Montessori grandparenting and parenting journeys
with us. So thank you both forbeing here today.

Barbara (01:13:57):
Thank you so much for having us. It was such fun to
do. It was.

Simone Davies (01:14:15):
Well, I hope that conversation gives you some
inspiration for being withgrandparents. Or if we don't
have grandparents or aren't incontact with them anymore, then
these ideas could be applicablewith any family members or
carers too. And we can all adoptFerne and Barbara maybe as ou
Montessori grandparents, so I'lput links to their websites i
the show notes so you can keefollowing their grandparentin

(01:14:37):
journey and seek them out fosome grandparenting wisdom. An
if you are a Montessorgrandparent, my friend Pamel
green has just startedcommunity for Montessor
grandparents. So check out thshow notes how to join the grou
and I'll put all the informatiothere. And remember, you ca
find all the links to everythinwe mentioned in the show over a
the Montessori notebook.com anthen click on the podcast ta

(01:14:58):
and you can also drop anListening questions there a
well. So now let's move otoday's question. This one
answered in a recent newsletterbut I decided that it's such
commonly asked question that I'share with you too. And th
question is, my son is sevemonths old. I've been followin
all the monster principles thaI can find and using it with m
son. I live in Kathmandu, and te concept is there in a ve

(01:15:21):
y superficial way. Schools ae called Montessori, but th
y don't follow the principles.
o my question is regarding my sn visiting his peers, or frien
s who live in a mountainf electronic toys, how will my s
n deal with an environment wheno one is vaguely following t
e method? All these toys ae wooden Montessori toys, and h
s friends have just plastic ad battery operated toys? What c
n I expect from his interactin with his peers? And what wi

(01:15:41):
l the difference be between hm and his friends when they'
e older? So indeed, yes, we cant control how other people rai
e their children. And as parens and caregivers, do know that y
u have an enormous impact on hw you are raising your chil
. They're with you so much of te day, even if they're at schoo
, they're at home on the evenins and afternoons and the weekend

(01:16:03):
. So it will definitely laya beautiful Foundation, and
t just may be quite differento how others are raising the
r children. So with other peopl, I think you can be very clear
n what your approach is in yor home. So you can clear
y communicate to that to lovd ones or people who are visitin
. So, you know, you can say thins like it's important to us. And

(01:16:24):
I always find that a useful phrae to use to communicate somethi
g that is important to you. Ad that's more likely to be hear
. so that it can be clearn whether you want electronic to
s or not in your home. The secod thing would be like in the ear
y years, you have more contrl over what your baby's going
o be spending time. So if yu visiting other's homes for

(01:16:44):
a short time each week, then yor child's gonna just sta
t learning that that's whee electronic toys will be. A
d actually, you know, observe hw does your child react to the
, sometimes I can be honest, I ws horrified that my child w
s enjoying them. But then knw that most of the time yo
r baby's going to be playing ina different way, hopefully, like
a more active way with moe passive toys with things th

(01:17:06):
t you've selected for your on home. So if it's more often th
t you visit other people, thenI might think about like making
n appointment to meet them outsie or going for a walk togethe
, visiting a playground, Pak nature and that kind of thin
. So that then you're not alwas being exposed to the electron
c toys there. And if someone ws actually caring for your chil
, then maybe that's a place tht you choose not to, or you have

(01:17:29):
a discussion with them about tht in a very positive way th
t everyone can have their nees met. Definitely, if you feeli
g a little bit isolatedn Kathmandu, then keep connect
ng with other Montessori familis. So if they're not in your lo
al area, you could look onlineto find like minded families
to support each other. I meanI think that's the beauty

(01:17:50):
of social media is that we actualy don't have to feel alone w
en we're traveling this path.
nd that can just give you an exra little bit of support. And li
e, don't give up because een though you may be parenting i
a way that's quite differet, don't underestimate t
at actually, people may be inspied by you. Because when you
ay something like, look at theay they're observing that tree

(01:18:12):
or so long. They're kicking thir legs, and they look like they
re really enjoying it, you knw, just like, do you remem
er Gabrielle was talking abut that, you know, talking ab
ut the joy the child's havingot necessarily using the w
rd Montessori, but other peole might start to see that Ye
h, their children need lessow they can observe their child
nd how you can interact wth respect with your baby. Ther

(01:18:33):
's also some interesting reseach being done about the outco
es with Montessori children. Andso for those interested I'll dro
a link in the show notes to a bog post where I shared some of
he latest research being done abut Montesso
But for me, the most importantpart of Montessori parenting is
knowing that we've supported ourchild's unique development and
help them to remain curious inthe world around them. And in

(01:18:55):
the long run, hopefully helpingthem become responsible humans
and Montessori children will Ipromise, you still have ups and
downs, but you're going to bethere along the road to support
them in those experiences. Andthen, lastly, with regard to
electronic toys and technology,as a Montessori educator, I
prefer the hands on learning anddefinitely for children under

(01:19:18):
six years old. And for over sixyears old. I really like the
book, toxic childhood. It's bySue Palmer. And then the
subtitle is how the modern worldis damaging our children and
what we can do about it. Andit's a surprisingly interesting
and positive guide because itsays, Okay, this is what the
situation is, but also this iswhat we can do about it. So her

(01:19:38):
ideas on technology, say that,you know, a small amount of well
selected good quality mediacould help your child like
understand what's going on withtheir peers, but without having
to take over their lives. So wekeep talking to our children
about the choices that they'remaking, what our family values
are, and as your children grow,you know, your values are
developing along with them. So,I hope that's really helpful. If

(01:20:02):
you enjoyed this episode, pleaseshare it with a friend or drop a
rating in your podcast app. AndI hope that you all have a
lovely week. And now I'm goingto go and talk myself into bed.
And I'll be back next Fridaywith another episode. Bye,
everyone. Thanks for joining mefor The Montessori Notebook
podcast. The podcast was editedby Luke Davies from Filmprov

(01:20:24):
edia and podcasts art by HiyokoTo find out more about me and m
online courses visit thMontessori notebook comm follo
me on Instagram at thMontessori notebook for pick u
a copy of my book The MontessorToddler for its new prequel The
Montessori Baby from your localbookstore, Amazon or where books
are sold. They're also availableas ebooks, audio books, and have

(01:20:47):
been translated into over 20languages. I'll be back in a
week with more Montessoriinspiration. And in the
meantime, perhaps you'll join mein spreading some more peace and
positivity

Unknown (01:20:57):
around the world.