March 26, 2024 • 49 mins
In this episode of the podcast, a conversation with UAMN Curator of Birds, Kevin Winker, and Ornithology Collection Manager, Jack Withrow about the growth of this museum collection, the vastness of North and how little has been studied in detail, the time-tested value of room temperature preservation, the difference between live mounts and study skins…and so much more.
The More You Look is a production of the UA Museum of the North, on the campus of the University of Alaska Fairbanks and the ancestral lands of the Dena people of the lower Tanana River. UAMN illuminates the natural history and cultural heritage of Alaska and the North through collections, research, education, and partnerships, and by creating a singular museum experience that honors diverse knowledge and respect for the land and its peoples.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kevin Winker (00:00):
Yeah, in general, people love birds, whether they
(00:02):
consider themselves birdwatchers or not. And the
pandemic actually wound updramatically increasing the
ranks of birdwatchers throughoutthe US and North America because
of the desirability of socialdistancing. And people got
outside a lot more.
Roger Topp (00:25):
Hello, and welcome to The More You Look, your
behind the scenes journey intomuseum collections, research,
exhibition, and publicprogramming from Fairbanks,
Alaska. I'm Roger Topp, Directorof Exhibits, Design and Digital
Media at the UA Museum of theNorth and host for today's
episode. The closest I've cometo studying birds was allowing
(00:49):
parakeets free rein of a studioapartment, and trying to guess
wh (00:53):
books, a shelf, a grapefruit seedling. That is until far more
recently. Peak COVID. I'mworking remotely and walking
down our road every morning tosee what new tracks had been
made in fresh snow--and to seeif I could turn them into
virtual casts of footprints andwing prints, 3d print them and
(01:15):
display them at the museum. It
was backyard collecting (01:21):
a Grouse, a Grosbeak, a chickadee,
a grouse, a Northern Shrikecapturing a Grosbeak and
dragging it across the snow, aredpoll, a grouse. In this
episode I speak with the UAMNCurator of Birds. Kevin Winker,
and Ornithology CollectionManager, Jack Withrow about the
(01:44):
growth of this museumcollection, the vastness of the
North, and how little has beenstudied in detail, the time
tested value of room temperaturepreservation, the difference
between live mountains and studyskins, and so much more.
Kevin Winker (02:02):
So, we have a real strong growth program, trying to
lay in samples, both to coverthe--well sort of--multiple
dimensions of the collection.
There's the the birds that wehave, and that's the taxonomic
space. There's geographic space,the geography that those birds
occupy. And then there's alsothe temporal dimension. And if
you're going to understandchanges through time, you need
(02:24):
samples through time. Theimportance is multi-dimensional,
one to learn more about birds,of course, and birds up here
specifically, although we canalso learn a lot about Alaska
birds where they winter. Andthat's an underdeveloped aspect
of this collection, manycollections, of non-breeding
(02:47):
birds. And of course,non-breeding birds define
Alaska's birds through most ofthe year. The other aspect of
importance, I think, isincreasingly so, is the
environment the birds live in.
And we can use these specimensto document the times and places
(03:10):
that they lived in. And becausewe recognize that climate change
is causing such environmentalshifts at these latitudes, so
fast, that aspect of thecollections is going to become
more and more important as wetry to understand what the
future holds when the future isthe present relative to the
(03:33):
past, which is now.
Roger Topp (03:36):
And that's going to the same location multiple
times,
Kevin Winker (03:39):
well, as much as we can, although you know, just
having just having samples fromAlaska through time can tell us
about this region, even if youdon't have the ability to focus
on a specific spot within thatregion. Of course, the more--the
(03:59):
finer grain the geographiccoverage is, through time, the
finer scale the questions youcan ask and have answered. But I
think for me, at least, it's nowthat we have a decent handle on
the avian diversity in thestate, the wider societal
potential, and what I mean isoutside of Ornithology for the
(04:23):
collection is to understandchanges in the environment, and
changes in those birdpopulations as well.
Roger Topp (04:29):
Regarding growth of the collection, I know that when
most times when I comedownstairs--Jack's up most
times, you're in the lab workingon a bird, preparing a specimen.
What kind of throughput isthere, in terms of new birds,
and I know we get a lot ofsamples from a single bird.
Jack Withrow (04:46):
Well, we have 1,500 a year. And it's the same
every year. It's planned growth,I guess, in that in a given
year. At this point in time weprep, maybe half to a third of
that. And the rest comes infrom--it's already prepped or
(05:09):
it's, you know, that percentagechanges through time. But we we
don't have without students theability to hit 1,500 a year. So
students are important in thataspect, in many others.
Roger Topp (05:24):
As the plan, as a number you guys came up with--is
that like, this is a target?
Kevin Winker (05:30):
It's--we learned early on when I came, with
experience, that that's about asmuch as we can do regularly
without harming ourselves orunderperforming. So, it's a
target we can consistently hit.
And that's the actual bottleneckabout adding things to the
collection. And it's just thehuman need to process every
(05:51):
animal that comes in so thatit's preserved. The data are
preserved and catalogued, andit's properly housed, and 1,500
is relatively high. So globally,we're probably one of the
fastest growing collections. Butat the same time, we also cover
a really large chunk of veryimportant geography on the
(06:13):
surface of the planet. We're theonly collection this active at
this latitude around the world.
And we're not just at any placein the world, we're at the top
of the Pacific Ocean. And that'sa destination for birds to breed
from both the Americas and fromAsia, Eurasia. So we were the
(06:36):
only collection sampling theentire East Asian flyway. And
that gives us a lot of materialthat's of demand globally, the
only fresh material. And Ishould point out that fresh
material is important because wehaven't in museums--we haven't
been saving frozen tissues forvery long. And that's the
(06:58):
primary source of genetic andgenomic material. So you really
need fresh specimens to get thebest quality genetics and
genomic data out of them.
Roger Topp (07:08):
And that material that you collect now, can be
kept for decades.
Kevin Winker (07:14):
Well so, freezing is a technology that's
relatively recent in humanhistory. It's relatively recent
in museum history. And it's notvery dependable. So museums are
really strongly oriented forgood reasons to preserving
things at room temperature. Theylast longer. Everything that we
(07:34):
can preserve at room temperatureis literally good for centuries.
Once we stabilize it and withwith bird skins, we--once
they're prepared with archivalquality materials and set aside
to dry. they are stable for awhile. And we keep them in
(07:56):
insect proof, light proofcabinets, light to keep fading
from happening on the plumageand insect proof to prevent
insects from eating them. Oncethey're housed like that,
they're literally good forcenturies.
Roger Topp (08:08):
Gotcha. So this is what you're saying about the
future. The future is present isthat collecting specimens this
year, literally fresh, meansthey can do studies on on those
specimens this year?
Kevin Winker (08:19):
Yes. So we can do--that's the cool thing about
specimen-based ornithology. Onceyou have a bird in the hand, you
not only have a wealth of datathat you can tap right now,
With the university--so thereare students here not--one
tomorrow, next week, but youhave a wealth of data you can
tap one year, 10 years, acentury from now as well. And so
it's that act of taking a samplefrom the environment and
(08:42):
bringing it into the museum.
Sitting at the lab table, as yousaid, Jack does every day,
preparing specimens that--you'regetting them set for archiving,
and then we're also preservingall the data with them. So that,
not only is it just an objectthat you're preserving for long
term, it's all the dataassociated with that object. And
then which I'm sure you'll getto, once it's computerized. We
(09:06):
can link future data, developfrom that specimen to that
specimen. So I mentionedgenetics and genomics. Every
time we produce a genetic dataset, or a genomic data set from
a bird, we try to choose a birdthat has a really comprehensive
archived sample in thecollection, the best quality
sample we can get. So that wecan tie that genetic and genomic
(09:29):
data to that animal, thatindividual animal. And when we
take our datasets and depositthem into national and
international data repositories,they're linked by number to that
object back here in thecollection itself. And so it
produces a network of data. Andthen also, we haven't talked
about the multiple pieces thatwe preserve each bird that make
(09:52):
it even more useful. We're notjust preserving genetics We're
not just preserving a skin.
We're usually preservingskeletal material, an extra
tissue sample, because freezingis not very dependable. The
first freezers are mechanicaland they break. And so we'd like
to say that we can freeze thingsin perpetuity, but nobody's
(10:16):
demonstrated that really yet outbeyond a few decades.
labor, two education, threetheir own research and future
careers, a lot of potentialconnection to students, how
(10:37):
many? How do they help you?
Jack Withrow (10:38):
Well, they hit all three, or four of our sort of
mission statements stuff, justas to what you just said. Coming
from the labor side, that'sgreat. But they also get
invaluable training and hands-onexperience. And that's all part
and parcel of researcheducation. Different parts of
the museum hit different aspectsof research education and
(11:01):
collections in different ways.
Kevin Winker (11:02):
Jack's absolutely right, the students are involved
Being someone involved in theexhibits department here, I had
in all phases. And one of ourmain missions here is not just
to grow the collection, but alsoto use the collection and to
train the next generation ofcollections-based biologists.
And so, students come through,some of them come through just
(11:23):
to learn how to be museumtechnicians. We often have
undergraduate employees. Andtheir experiences in handling
specimens, handling data andlearning complicated techniques,
whether it's in the bird lab orin the molecular lab, is part of
their portfolio, that trainingportfolio that they take forward
(11:45):
into the into the larger worldto be professional biologists.
They also--graduate students dotheir own research. So all the
students associated, all thegraduate students associated
with us are doing thesis-basedresearch. And then that, by that
I mean that, each of them willproduce two or three thesis
(12:07):
chapters, which eventually willbe publications about research,
that's usually in our case,centered on the collection in
some way. And there are many,many, many types of questions
that can be asked of thecollection. And so we get a
diversity of students who areinterested in really a variety,
(12:29):
a crazy variety of things thatthey might be able to do. And we
figured out, we usually onlygive them the Go ahead, if it's
likely that they can succeed inwhat they're proposing to do.
a couple of questions aboutexhibits. And the first ones on
But there are an endless numberof questions that can be
answered with a specimen basis,about birds and about the
(12:50):
environments that those birdslive in.
the paper, just like one I justthought of just beforehand. As
in when we talk about seeingbirds on exhibit, as we've
talked about many times, it'simportant to understand the
difference between a mounted,aesthetically pleasing, you
(13:11):
know, public-facing specimen,and what, on the other hand, is
useful for research useful forarchiving. And we've talked
before about differences. Andyou mentioned the problems with
light and putting valuablespecimens on exhibit and having
them bleached. Yes, under lightsand that some of you could talk
a little bit about thatdifference. And but but much
(13:32):
more--like the second idea Ihad, which is like what, what
you would like to see onexhibit?
The main difference betweenbirds that go into the research
collection and birds on exhibitis the is the amount of effort
and artistry put into a birdpreserve for exhibit is wildly
different than a bird put intothe research collection. So the
(13:55):
research collection bird is aconstruct, so you all the
insides are out so they can'trot that's the case in both of
them. But then, with theresearch specimen, we're using
minimal stuffing, if you will,to get them preserved in a shape
that makes them useful, butdoesn't take up much space. And
(14:19):
so a research bird specimen islaying on its back with its
wings closed cotton eyeballs anda stick. Running through the
interior from the base of thebill out to the in our case, the
end of the tail that the feetare tied to or foot if is if we
use the skeleton. Eyes closed onthe back wings closed, as
(14:40):
compact as it can be made sothat it can lay in a shallow
specimen tray with all of itsfellows in a row and then
another trade being right on topof that and so when you open the
specimen cabinet, you simply seea series of shallow drawers or
trays, each of which contains asmany scientific specimens as we
(15:04):
can fit on that. And so it'scompact, it's got cotton
eyeballs. And it's put away inthis kind of an archival
facility for both present andfuture use. And we don't pull
those trays out very often. Butwhen we do, we're pulling out
(15:26):
either a specific birds or Ishould mention that we're a
public institution and a lendingfacility. And museums are tight
network research collections area tight network globally. And so
what once something's archivedhere, computerized, it's
available for researchersanywhere. And so we're commonly
(15:48):
sending out the pieces that wepreserve to other researchers
elsewhere, as well as using theminternally. So it's a, it's a
very dynamic archive, both withthings going in, and things
going out, on loan, and thencoming back. Contrary to that
exhibit pieces are elaboratelyposed, compared to scientific
(16:11):
specimens, wonderful glass eyes,and they're a pleasure to see.
As you can imagine, you've gotone over your head right now, it
looks just like a bird percheddown on the tree branch in your
yard. Those are hard to storecompactly. And so those do not
make good research specimens.
They also don't have tagshanging from them. Every museum
(16:31):
specimen that we preserve has alabel that accompanies it, that
gives the data about that bird.
And that would that would bereally ugly. If every if every
exhibited specimen at a labelhanging off of it.
Jack Withrow (16:45):
They basically have different purposes. This
mount is designed to catch youreye, look pretty, make you think
about something, help you conveythe science in this study skins,
you know, they just have adifferent purpose. And you don't
need series and series ofmounted birds to convey
something. They're all differentspecies, you know, that
(17:06):
menagerie type thing, andsampler could do that. But you
don't generally need a series aswe say as the same, or what
looks like the same bird. Sothey have different purposes.
For the most part, you could useeven the they have cross
purposes, I guess you coulddisplay research specimen to
(17:26):
talk about research specimensand why we have this type and
that type. But they they'redifferent effectively, because
they have different goals.
Roger Topp (17:33):
And we're going to do that with the western coast
cases, we had some drawers, sothey can remain closed most of
the time. And they'll havespecimens on their backs.
Jack Withrow (17:42):
So, it again comes back to the mission of--you got
the education part, the researchpart, the outreach part. And
both of those specimens, if youwant to call them out in bird
specimens.
Roger Topp (18:02):
A number of years ago, I put in a sort of request
for--if we come by a snowy owlspecimen, I'd love to see one on
exhibit, flying. And itsometimes takes a long time for
one that to get one into thefreezer. And when I asked for
that, it's a lot more work tocreate it. Maybe it's more fun
(18:26):
sometimes to do somethingdifferent. But how does that
work with the you know (18:29):
There's a specimen. It's a snowy owl now
on exhibit upstairs. I'mguessing that tissue was taken
for for the for the collection.
So, is there--was used in someways for research and can be
used for research even thoughthat was about a display.
Jack Withrow (18:47):
Yeah, there's a bit of a judgment call and given
the snowy owl that was probablysalvaged and had probably
minimal data. And, you know,it's just if someone really,
really, really wanted when theycould take one what's perfect
data and making it a mount. Youknow, it's white feathers is
probably not gonna fade toomuch. But like I said, that one
(19:08):
does have tissues, it does havea good sample, probably I
probably saved the skeleton Idon't recall. So again, we're
just balancing those sort ofthree big themes within the
museum to come up with somethingthat's mountable. We mounted it
in house, which probably savedsomewhere between 500 and a
1,000 bucks. Maybe it doesn'tlook perfect, but it looks good
(19:32):
enough. And you know, yeah,probably takes three times as
long to make a mountain versus astudy skin. But it's that we're
just if a lot of how manyminutes do people spend looking
at it? That's probably more farmore now at this point than I
ever spent on it. And now wehave a store now that people
look at I don't think there wasone in the gallery before.
Roger Topp (19:53):
There definitely wasn't. And you know, the
Crested Auklet that's up by thebowhead--that's, I think people
whostarted to notice that--itcan go unnoticed for quite a
while. But that's that was athat was a great little gift
there for you to kind of puttogether that skeleton. And that
would be a much more difficultproject maybe, than just taking
Jack Withrow (20:12):
I mean, I let the bugs do most of the work. And so
this.
it's not--it's articulated Isuppose, but it's not every--in
most of the cases, the joints inthere are kept together by its
own ligaments. There is somewires there, some support, but
(20:32):
unlike the bowhead I think hasit--just every single bone put
together by wires and if notrebar or something similar. It
It took some time again it takesthat one probably took 10 times
as long as it takes to make askeleton which is what that
would have turned into with hadit not been put on display, but
still much less time than theowl probably. And that's it it
(20:57):
can engender much a bunch ofdifferent
conversations--probably eatingthe same things as well. He was
also taken by Alaska Nativessubsistence hunters. It's a High
Arctic endemic, or at least thenorth part of the Pacific
endemic. I mean, there's lots ofthings you can talk about about
it. It makes it nicejuxtaposition with the whale
(21:17):
since it's probably weights lessthan the smallest bone, the
whole bird. So it's just a nicelittle thing that you see if
you're paying attention.
Roger Topp (21:30):
What else what else?
What else would you love to seeon exhibit? Let's let's it's
getting any any thoughts.
Kevin Winker (21:36):
I think, for me, the traveling birdwatcher is a
person who we're not serving aswell as we might given our
location. And many people cometo Alaska in the summer to see
birds that they'll add to theirlife lists. Or if they just want
(21:56):
to see really cool birds anddon't even have a light list.
Alaska is a very big place. Manyof those birds that are unique
to Alaska in North America hardto get to, and few bird watchers
are going to see all the birdsthey like to see in one or two
even 10 trips. And so if wecould get some of those Alaska
(22:17):
specialties up in the gallery, Ithink that would make a lot of
mouths water.
Roger Topp (22:23):
So a mounted bird would satisfy a bit of the itch.
Kevin Winker (22:27):
Well, it's it gives you you get the chance to
see what they look like and, andperhaps feel the pull that
exotic animals give--everybodywant likes to see exotic
animals. That's why zoos are sopopular. And yet I'm seeing them
in the wild is hard. And so Irealized that exhibit gallery
(22:49):
isn't a zoo, but it's theclosest thing we can have to
Alaska specialty birds. And soyou know, through time, I hope
we might be able to get some upthere. One thing I wanted to
touch on, though, was directlywe've indirectly addressed it
one of the huge differencesbetween exhibit specimens and
research specimens is samplesize. We've talked about Jack
(23:13):
mentioned, you know, just oneand the difference that can make
and in Exhibit two, you rarelysee mounted--I've forgotten the
term. Well, dioramas in whichyou've got more than 5 or 10 of
any kind of animal. You open upone of those specimen drawers
(23:37):
and they're frequently 100, 150of one species. And that is one
of the things that makes aresearch collection really
useful. And it's--in science,it's called sample size. And as
an example, Alaska is huge. Ithas a lot of bird populations
and many of those birdpopulations are quite different
(23:58):
in plumage, and in size, andshape. And quantifying those
differences rigorously requiresgood sample sizes. And for
morphology, for example. Weoften say that, if you want to
quantify the size of birds in apopulation, the best way to
(24:19):
start is with 30 adult males and30 adult females--and adults are
bigger than than young of theyear. And so if you think about
that being the optimalmorphological sample size by
population, some people havedone calculations about the
world's birds, less than 1% ofthe world's birds are documented
(24:41):
to that level of effectiveness.
And so understanding differencesin similarities between
populations is one of the keypurposes to which birds bird
research collections are put.
And yet the that fine scale ofresolution is lacking. For most
of the taxa that we're commonlycollecting and adding to
(25:03):
collections.
Jack Withrow (25:04):
So if Kevin was talking about geographic,
temporal, and species gaps, thenonce you get within a species,
you got your sex differences,your age differences, your
geographic location differences.
So if you have 100 of onespecies, you're still knocking
out you're still the reason youneed more as you're rarely going
to have a sample size that canrobustly answer a question on
(25:24):
say, you know, the differencesand in all of the other
variables that you mightimagine, go into that age, sex
time of year, for different formolds, if you were looking at
molten birds or more continentor something like that terming
it as molting basically,throughout the year, many birds
just melt in the fall or falland spring. But if you wanted to
(25:45):
get a handle on that, with, youknow, more than one or two
birds, you know, here, you'regoing to need a lot of birds to
be able to confidently have alarge enough sample size, given
whatever question someone mightwant to ask about it.
Roger Topp (26:03):
It seems like something's really deceptive
about the exhibits, becauseyou're up there, and we have a
lynx on exhibit. One, but yet,whether it's a good lynxor not a
good lynx, since it's--
Kevin Winker (26:12):
It's one. yeah.
Roger Topp (26:14):
What does it mean?
Jack Withrow (26:14):
If you were a Martian and you came down to
earth and you saw one lynx, youwould know absolutely jack shit
about lynx. You wouldn't say--Is that a freakish lynx? What if
you got a melanistic lynx? Youknow, like, are they all look
like that? Well, if you've got10 of them lined up, you can say
a little bit more. If you have30 and 30 from lots of different
places, you could say a lot.
Roger Topp (26:37):
Add to which, if those mounts up there from any
of the collections or low datamounts, you don't know much
about that particular animal'sage?
Kevin Winker (26:46):
Yeah, we do tend to--we do tend to use a
specimens of less scientificvalue for exhibits when whenever
we can. But when you ask whatwe'd like upstairs, we'd also
like those in the collection.
And so what if we're ever goingto go out and get things
specifically for mounting, Iwould like to get 20 for the
(27:07):
research collection andsacrifice one for exhibits. From
this, it'd be a sacrifice fromthe science perspective. While
it would be the mission for anexhibit-based specimen
collecting effort.
(27:27):
Jack mentioned the term salvagea lot of what we bring in is
what we termed salvage thatstuff that's found dead. So any
way that a bird dies, and can bepreserved, usually temporarily
frozen. In the case of birdsthat come here, we collect them
from throughout the state peopleknow to route their dead birds
(27:49):
here. And we tell them to, ifthey find something dead, put it
in a plastic bag with a labelthat gives the date and location
of where they picked it up. Andwe get we get a lot of salvage
birds from window kills. Roadkills. Cat kills. What are some
(28:11):
other sources?
Jack Withrow (28:12):
Bash program at airports?
Kevin Winker (28:14):
Right. Yes. That's a big one. Yeah, keeping our
skies safe from not suckingbirds through jet engines, the
US Department of Agriculture,Wildlife Services. Once a bird
no longer can be frightened offthe runway, they shoot it.
Jack Withrow (28:32):
Agency projects, cast off people's studies on X,
Y or Z where they're not goingto use the whole animal, just
looking at stomachs orsomething.
Kevin Winker (28:42):
Yeah, and the salvage stream often contains
things that don't have muchdata. And those are really a
good source of things foreducation and exhibits, because
they they're of less value inthe scientific collection
because they lack data.
Roger Topp (28:59):
Let's talk a little bit about birders. I've never
been overly fascinated withbirds. And there's certainly a
phenomenon with life listers andbirders going long distances to
see species, but it's also ageneral interest probably in
birds in knowing what bird thatis or the sound that sound I
(29:20):
hear in that tree there. And soit seems that the research
collection with this checklistespecially isn't just serving
researchers, is serving the laypublic who are just interested
in birds.
Kevin Winker (29:34):
Very much so. And neither Jack nor I are
technically birders or birdwatchers, we both love to see
birds and experience birds. Ilove to know what birds making
that sound and the tree. Birdfeeders out in the yard,
watching birds. But neither ofus--
Jack Withrow (29:52):
We are defining birding relatively narrowly in
that way. Birding is sort ofsomeone who can just track of X
number of birds in y area. Butwe I guess we do it. I do it
professionally. I'm on theAlaska checklist committee. But
that's more--my interest in thatis more scientific than then
(30:17):
ticking things, I guess. Butthen there could be people who I
mean, there's everything fromthat from the casual observer of
birds who does not keep a list,but it's curious what they are
to someone who spends maybe even10s of 1000s of dollars in a
year and travels to far offplaces to put a name on a list
for a given area. Presumably, besomeone because it gives them
(30:41):
edification in some way shape,or form for you know, 1000s of
miles and spent a lot of moneyto see one bird for 30 seconds.
And that satisfies them and theymove on to the next thing.
Kevin Winker (30:52):
And usually those are listers, people who are
boosting their own lists, lifelist, North American list.
Roger Topp (30:59):
It's usually a little brown bird that's just
not in the right place?
Kevin Winker (31:03):
It's all--there are many colors.
Jack Withrow (31:06):
They are almost always situationally rare as
opposed to truly rare. They areout of place. That's a human
fascination with things that areout of place, and weird, and
they want to see. Most of thebirds that you list, quote,
unquote, would be far easier tosee somewhere else. But it's
more fun if you see them in aplace that's where they're not
(31:26):
expected, or mean,. really theexpected condition in birds is
that they move around. Sovagrant is an arguable term,
extra-liminal, might be better,whatever you want to call it,
though, it's eventually--they'regonna get around.
Kevin Winker (31:41):
And we provide the scientific basis for the entire
spectrum of bird appreciators totell them what birds are
officially recognized to occurin the state.
Roger Topp (31:51):
Right, so when you mentioned the before that the
the Bristle-thighed Curlew is abirder's bird, part of that--so
it's a very--it's an it existsin a particular area. And so
it's a birders destination to goto, go see this bird and it's in
that habitat.
Jack Withrow (32:08):
Sure, I mean, it's endemic as a breeding bird at
least to Alaska. Winters in theSouth Pacific. So it's right
there with Bar-tailed Godwit, along distance migrant What do I
mean by birder's bird? Yeah,it's not easy to see within
North America unless you come toAlaska or on a beach in Hawaii
(32:28):
or maybe I don't know how oftenthey actually stop in Hawaii but
yeah, it's not an easy bird see.
Roger Topp (32:34):
And yet it's quite seeable if you make the attempt.
Jack Withrow (32:37):
Yes. There are a lot of reasons, yeah, still may
have to drive to, you know getto know them and drive 50 miles
and walk five miles but --
Roger Topp (32:45):
But that missing bird there that was seen in
Dutch Harbor may not be theretomorrow when I arrive. We can
almost expect the Curlew, if Iget to the right place, the
Curlew would be--
Jack Withrow (32:55):
Kind of expensive effort, but yeah.
Kevin Winker (32:59):
Yeah, and people go all the way to Nome to see
Bristle-thighs and they don'tget to see him for weather,
timing, whatever it might be. Along trip.
Jack Withrow (33:09):
But that's one on a long list of birds birds and
again it's a birders bird ifthey want to see it. They get to
Kevin Winker (33:13):
And if--and if for many of them if they've already
define it, and if you see enoughof those people to find
something you go okay that'swhat they're interested in. And
you can kind of quantify whythat is and then around you can
guess whether it's going to beexciting
seen it if they've ticked thatbird, what's next? That's
(33:36):
yesterday's news. I've got tofind one that I haven't seen.
It's a very interesting hobby.
But yeah, bird tourism is animportant part of what makes
Alaska attractive to a lot ofvisitors so and coming, circling
back to exhibits, Yeah, we cando better to serve that sector
with some some of these highlydesirable birds on exhibit that
(33:58):
we don't get our hands on veryoften to tell the truth.
Roger Topp (34:06):
I'm more interested in birds and I lead on. We had a
boreal owl show for the secondtime in two years. It was in our
woodshed.
Jack Withrow (34:14):
Got a cavity in there.
Roger Topp (34:16):
No, t was just sitting there checking out the
the area around with tons andtons of voles. But I got within
10 feet with my 800 millimeterlens. had to back up because it
was too close. And it's justkind of staring at me-- but
yeah, no, it's nice to see.
Jack Withrow (34:32):
They're very approachable. Often anyway.
Roger Topp (34:36):
He's got the elevation on you, he's not too
scared. So, about maybe talkabout there is and I know I
talked to Kevin previously aboutthe landscape and the gridded
(34:59):
detail on the landscape. Isthere a connection there between
looking at the idea that, youknow, you have a lot of
collections in one place,because that's what people went
through people live. Maybe theycan actually talk about the
breadth of the state, ofgeography. But the idea that the
hotspots of collecting thathappen naturally, because
they're accessible, the rightperson goes there.
Kevin Winker (35:22):
There are hotspots in the state that have been
important throughout historybecause they're accessible, just
as there are spots, WesternInterior that are almost
depauperate of specimens,because they're really hard to
get to. Plus, there's probablynot a lot that's super
interesting there. But there arepopulations that haven't been
(35:43):
sampled, of birds that occurhere, for example. But we're not
going to--I don't know any placethat's that's been sampled in a
grid like manner, evenly.
Jack Withrow (35:55):
It'd probably be a waste of resources to do it that
way.
Kevin Winker (35:58):
It probably would be Yeah.
Jack Withrow (36:00):
Depending on your question, I mean, but for what
we do, it's complicated. Why themap looks the way it does when
you look at numbers ofspecimens. And some of those are
truly hotspots that we made apoint of going to and some of
them are a combination ofaccessibility and chance. And
some of them are right when itcomes right down to it. There
(36:22):
are certainly places that aremore important than others. But
that's a constantly evolvingkind of question. We get a bunch
from here, that lay off on thatplace for a little while trying
to focus efforts elsewhere. Butthat's it's a lot of
happenstance that goes into thatas well.
Kevin Winker (36:38):
You remind me of something that I noticed when I
first came up here, and we havenot been able to rectify this
yet. But that accident ofaccessibility has caused there
to be a whole bunch ofsubspecies of birds. Subspecies
are populations that arerecognizable because of their
phenotypic differences. So aslight difference in body size,
(36:59):
a slight difference in plumagecoloration. Those are often the
bases for describing subspecies.
Thesea are phenotypically,largely recognizable populations
within a broader species.
Anyway, there are a lot ofsubspecies of birds, described
from Western Canada, Yukon, andfrom Eastern Alaska, different
subspecies, and the only reasonthey're considered different
(37:21):
subspecies is because thecollectors from Canada got to
the end to Canada and turnedaround and went the other way.
And the collectors from Alaskawent to Eastern Alaska and hit
the border with Canada andturned back home. And so it's an
artificial barrier, becausethere's nothing biologically to
prevent the birds from Easternor Western Canada, breeding
(37:43):
happily with the birds ofEastern Alaska, and it's
unlikely that many of thoseputative subspecies boundaries
are valid, and we've notundertaken the effort that it
would take to sample across thatartificial barrier, that human
caused international barrier todemonstrate that many of those
taxa are--
Jack Withrow (38:03):
Do you have an example of that?
Kevin Winker (38:05):
I've forgotten, though I wrote a proposal about
it once it wasn't funded. Andthen we couldn't get collecting
permits for the Yukon. And so Ijust said, you know, I'm just
not going to pursue that. Oh,one was Ralph Brownings Yellow
Warblers.
Unknown (38:20):
Over split anyways, right?
Kevin Winker (38:22):
Yeah. But there were others there. And I
realized when I started to seethis weird boundary showing up
that it's just the fact thatthere's an international border
there and the collections whenthe collections never got
assembled in one place to beable to compare them. Anyway,
(38:42):
that's the kind of thing where atransect approach would be quite
useful.
Roger Topp (38:49):
Before we run out of time, maybe circling back to
migrants. There must be realbarriers to air travel.
Kevin Winker (38:57):
You mean in the long term sense among migrants?
Evolutionarily?
breeding habitat? Yeah, that'sgoing to be the driver. It turns
Roger Topp (39:04):
Yeah.
out that intercontinentalmigration is much rarer globally
than within continent migration.
And so populations tend to havemore highly migratory taxa.
Populations tend to splitcontinentally,
inter-continentally, within acontinent, it's much harder for
migrants to become isolated andto to differ. But we saw we saw
(39:26):
historically, the Last GlacialMaximum caused some profound
differences in migratorymovements with that large sheet
of ice covering much of NorthAmerica, habitats that are
currently wide open for borealforest breeders, for example,
were not present. And so thosekinds of barriers existed. They
(39:47):
were probably important--abarrier like that was probably
important for the formation ofthe McKay's Bunting, as an
example. They probably underwentsome degree of isolation up here
in the on the Bering Land Bridgein the unglaciated portion of
Beringia. But it is harder to doso. For a migratory bird, the
(40:10):
work that I've done suggeststhat geography isn't as much of
a barrier as the change ofseasons through latitude and
time. And so an example I givein my class for ornithology is
that Orange Crowned Warblers areprobably on territory and
breeding like crazy inCalifornia right now. But I look
(40:31):
out the window and we still gottwo feet of snow on the ground.
Our Orange Crowned Warblersaren't here. Where are they?
They're hanging out inCalifornia, but they're not
breeding. And so--and they'redifferent subspecies of Orange
Crowned Warbler is between
Kevin Winker (40:49):
So, they're, what these migrants are trying to do
Alaska and California. And soit's that barrier of where and
when to nest that's probablypreventing those populations
from crossing exceptionallyoften. So allows them to
differentiate a bit. So it'sless geography than phenology.
Progression of a breeding seasonacross entire species range. So
(41:13):
the Alaska Orange crowd, we'restill waiting in California, are
starting to migrate north. Butthere's no time for them to stop
and breed and come and breed inAlaska. And they're adapted to
an Alaska breeding season. Andthey're all--their gonads are
still tiny and will be untilthey just before they arrive.
(41:35):
That explain?
is they're trying to maximizetheir reproductive success. And
they're taking advantage ofthese resource blooms that
occur. And we have a phenomenalresource bloom here in the high
north with very long summerdays. Very high summer
productivity, and fewerparasites and predators probably
(41:59):
also than--
Roger Topp (42:06):
Sounds very behavioral, like Alaskans will
vacation in Hawaii but notFlorida.
Jack Withrow (42:12):
The seasons change north to south, not east to
west. So the migrants are gonnago up and down, if you will, on
the globe. And that's why youhave less east to west. It still
happens. But it's rare, becauseHawaii's closer, so we just go
straight down as opposed tojogging. It's a long way, right?
(42:33):
Because--why that pattern existsis because birds want to take
the shortest route to spend thewinter somewhere warm.
Kevin Winker (42:40):
So, actually, that gets at some really weird stuff.
They, they don't take theshortest route. They kind of
follow ancestral patterns.
Jack Withrow (42:49):
But if you go deep enough back in time, that's got
to be part a part of that,whether they take a circuitous
route, because there's astopover site, or the winds
happen do that. And that's kindof I'm talking to you in at a
higher altitude.
Roger Topp (43:03):
And will go out of our way for lunch here because
it's usually well,
Kevin Winker (43:07):
But here's, there's--there's some really
weird stuff. Blackpoll Warblersfrom interior Alaska, they're
going to winter in SouthAmerica, they don't go straight
to South America. They go allthe way to the east coast of
North America to do the freakinMaine, fatten up and cross the
Atlantic Ocean to get down toSouth America instead of taking
(43:28):
a reasonable route.
Jack Withrow (43:31):
But that's still got them within you know, some
bounds of longitude.
Kevin Winker (43:35):
Boy, yeah, but they're, they're crossing the
most of the continent. It'scrazy. It's really weird. So
there's some really strangeroutes in birds. Part of it's
gonna be wind part of it's allthat stuff.
Jack Withrow (43:48):
Many of the other day go migrate, roughly north to
south is is because of theseasons.
Kevin Winker (43:56):
Yeah, but there, but there's a case in Swainsons
Thrushes, or another one whereyou've got a phenomenal east
west movement going on as well.
Jack Withrow (44:04):
It's a tiny aspect of the north - south. I mean,
it's like what 10% of the northsouth movement is a tight small
relative to the north south, Iwould assume.
Kevin Winker (44:14):
In Blackpolls. No, it's probably--it's probably
pretty close to the same thingthat--
Jack Withrow (44:18):
I think we need a globe, but I doubt--
Roger Topp (44:19):
Yeah, we need a string and a globe.
Kevin Winker (44:23):
We want a globe.
There are some super freakishavian migrations that don't make
sense there. Because there's somany cases where they're not
simply taking the shortest routeand we can't see why.
Roger Topp (44:35):
But we can assume there was a good reason at some
point in time. They wereobviously was a driver--
Kevin Winker (44:39):
Yeah, one of the main one of the main hypotheses
is the expansion of habitat, thedirection that took and so
Roger Topp (44:42):
The Geography there isn't a barrier. It's just more
boreal forest is boreal forestsfrom western Alaska to eastern
Canada. And a lot of those--soone of the cool things about
Alaska is that, you know, lower48. You've got an eastern North
American avifauna in a westernNorth American avifauna. By the
time you get up to Alaska, thatbecomes a north to south
(45:05):
relationship with the birds herein Fairbanks being more closely
associated with the easternNorth American forest birds than
with the Western. And then yougo across the Alaska Range and
of a guide.
it's more Western than Eastern.
Kevin Winker (45:18):
The mountains are a barrie,r and the mountains,
the lack of mountains, orrelative lack of mountains
enable the eastern NorthAmerican birds to colonize
interior Alaska.
Roger Topp (45:39):
Yeah, I like how you guys are facing in the direction
this room that I am. And youyou're definitely referring to
maps on the wall somewhere abovemy head.
Kevin Winker (45:47):
Yes. Yes. There's when I got three maps hanging on
the wall. Only one isPacific-centered, which is the
way the world looks from abird's perspective up here. It's
an exciting place and anexciting time to be an
ornithologist. Just generally,it is. Yeah.
Roger Topp (46:08):
It's not just that we're hoping for spring at some
point here.
Kevin Winker (46:11):
No, no, it's exciting all winter too, because
then we get to study birds inthe cabinets, in the collection.
So I'm running. I'm runningthrush genomes on that computer
right behind you right now.
Roger Topp (46:25):
So, this is your pitch for more and more people
to come and stud,y undergrads tolearn, learn, take apart birds.
Kevin Winker (46:33):
Well,we're gonna bring in a bunch of new grad
students here as soon as well.
It's a great time to be anornithologist. It's great place
to be here in Alaska studyingbirds, and we didn't touch on
how important--I did touch onhow important wintering areas
are to Alaska birds. And Alaskabirds winter on every continent.
(46:53):
Elsewhere in North America,South America, Australia, Asia,
even some make it to Europe inthe way of--one species that
winters every winter in Africa.
So we're very connected inAlaska's avifauna. So and that's
(47:16):
where we need to study a littlebit more. What happens to these
birds when they're not here?
What are they exposed to? Whatare they a whole host of
questions?
Roger Topp (47:27):
Fantastic. well, thank you guys.
Kevin Winker (47:28):
Thank you, Roger.
Roger Topp (47:32):
Thank you to Kevin Winkler and Jack Withrow for the
conversation and theirenthusiasm for preparing birds
both for study and display. Myfavorite mount on display at the
museum is that of the CrestedAuklet skeleton that swims
alongside that of the BowheadWhale in the main lobby. Though
my favorite bird-related exhibitis that of a replica 3d printed
(47:55):
lynx track in snow, bird-relatedbecause while I was
photographing the track to makethe exhibit model, one of the
barnyard chickens walked by andput her footprint right across
that of the cat. 'That'll work,'I said. The More You Look is a
production of the UA Museum ofthe North on the campus of the
(48:15):
University of Alaska Fairbanksand the ancestral lands of the
Dena people of the lower TananaRiver. UAMN illuminates the
natural history and culturalheritage of Alaska and the North
through collections, research,education, and partnerships, and
by creating a singular museumexperience that honors diverse
(48:36):
knowledge and respect for theland and its peoples. Thank you
for listening. Please subscribe,share, and rate the program.
This helps other listenersdiscover more about not only the
work of this museum, but quitepossibly, other museums in their
neighborhoods. The more youlook, the more you find.
Yeah, in general, people love birds, whether they
(00:02):
consider themselves birdwatchers or not. And the
pandemic actually wound updramatically increasing the
ranks of birdwatchers throughoutthe US and North America because
of the desirability of socialdistancing. And people got
outside a lot more.
Roger Topp (00:25):
Hello, and welcome to The More You Look, your
behind the scenes journey intomuseum collections, research,
exhibition, and publicprogramming from Fairbanks,
Alaska. I'm Roger Topp, Directorof Exhibits, Design and Digital
Media at the UA Museum of theNorth and host for today's
episode. The closest I've cometo studying birds was allowing
(00:49):
parakeets free rein of a studioapartment, and trying to guess
wh (00:53):
books, a shelf, a grapefruit seedling. That is until far more
recently. Peak COVID. I'mworking remotely and walking
down our road every morning tosee what new tracks had been
made in fresh snow--and to seeif I could turn them into
virtual casts of footprints andwing prints, 3d print them and
(01:15):
display them at the museum. It
was backyard collecting (01:21):
a Grouse, a Grosbeak, a chickadee,
a grouse, a Northern Shrikecapturing a Grosbeak and
dragging it across the snow, aredpoll, a grouse. In this
episode I speak with the UAMNCurator of Birds. Kevin Winker,
and Ornithology CollectionManager, Jack Withrow about the
(01:44):
growth of this museumcollection, the vastness of the
North, and how little has beenstudied in detail, the time
tested value of room temperaturepreservation, the difference
between live mountains and studyskins, and so much more.
Kevin Winker (02:02):
So, we have a real strong growth program, trying to
lay in samples, both to coverthe--well sort of--multiple
dimensions of the collection.
There's the the birds that wehave, and that's the taxonomic
space. There's geographic space,the geography that those birds
occupy. And then there's alsothe temporal dimension. And if
you're going to understandchanges through time, you need
(02:24):
samples through time. Theimportance is multi-dimensional,
one to learn more about birds,of course, and birds up here
specifically, although we canalso learn a lot about Alaska
birds where they winter. Andthat's an underdeveloped aspect
of this collection, manycollections, of non-breeding
(02:47):
birds. And of course,non-breeding birds define
Alaska's birds through most ofthe year. The other aspect of
importance, I think, isincreasingly so, is the
environment the birds live in.
And we can use these specimensto document the times and places
(03:10):
that they lived in. And becausewe recognize that climate change
is causing such environmentalshifts at these latitudes, so
fast, that aspect of thecollections is going to become
more and more important as wetry to understand what the
future holds when the future isthe present relative to the
(03:33):
past, which is now.
Roger Topp (03:36):
And that's going to the same location multiple
times,
Kevin Winker (03:39):
well, as much as we can, although you know, just
having just having samples fromAlaska through time can tell us
about this region, even if youdon't have the ability to focus
on a specific spot within thatregion. Of course, the more--the
(03:59):
finer grain the geographiccoverage is, through time, the
finer scale the questions youcan ask and have answered. But I
think for me, at least, it's nowthat we have a decent handle on
the avian diversity in thestate, the wider societal
potential, and what I mean isoutside of Ornithology for the
(04:23):
collection is to understandchanges in the environment, and
changes in those birdpopulations as well.
Roger Topp (04:29):
Regarding growth of the collection, I know that when
most times when I comedownstairs--Jack's up most
times, you're in the lab workingon a bird, preparing a specimen.
What kind of throughput isthere, in terms of new birds,
and I know we get a lot ofsamples from a single bird.
Jack Withrow (04:46):
Well, we have 1,500 a year. And it's the same
every year. It's planned growth,I guess, in that in a given
year. At this point in time weprep, maybe half to a third of
that. And the rest comes infrom--it's already prepped or
(05:09):
it's, you know, that percentagechanges through time. But we we
don't have without students theability to hit 1,500 a year. So
students are important in thataspect, in many others.
Roger Topp (05:24):
As the plan, as a number you guys came up with--is
that like, this is a target?
Kevin Winker (05:30):
It's--we learned early on when I came, with
experience, that that's about asmuch as we can do regularly
without harming ourselves orunderperforming. So, it's a
target we can consistently hit.
And that's the actual bottleneckabout adding things to the
collection. And it's just thehuman need to process every
(05:51):
animal that comes in so thatit's preserved. The data are
preserved and catalogued, andit's properly housed, and 1,500
is relatively high. So globally,we're probably one of the
fastest growing collections. Butat the same time, we also cover
a really large chunk of veryimportant geography on the
(06:13):
surface of the planet. We're theonly collection this active at
this latitude around the world.
And we're not just at any placein the world, we're at the top
of the Pacific Ocean. And that'sa destination for birds to breed
from both the Americas and fromAsia, Eurasia. So we were the
(06:36):
only collection sampling theentire East Asian flyway. And
that gives us a lot of materialthat's of demand globally, the
only fresh material. And Ishould point out that fresh
material is important because wehaven't in museums--we haven't
been saving frozen tissues forvery long. And that's the
(06:58):
primary source of genetic andgenomic material. So you really
need fresh specimens to get thebest quality genetics and
genomic data out of them.
Roger Topp (07:08):
And that material that you collect now, can be
kept for decades.
Kevin Winker (07:14):
Well so, freezing is a technology that's
relatively recent in humanhistory. It's relatively recent
in museum history. And it's notvery dependable. So museums are
really strongly oriented forgood reasons to preserving
things at room temperature. Theylast longer. Everything that we
(07:34):
can preserve at room temperatureis literally good for centuries.
Once we stabilize it and withwith bird skins, we--once
they're prepared with archivalquality materials and set aside
to dry. they are stable for awhile. And we keep them in
(07:56):
insect proof, light proofcabinets, light to keep fading
from happening on the plumageand insect proof to prevent
insects from eating them. Oncethey're housed like that,
they're literally good forcenturies.
Roger Topp (08:08):
Gotcha. So this is what you're saying about the
future. The future is present isthat collecting specimens this
year, literally fresh, meansthey can do studies on on those
specimens this year?
Kevin Winker (08:19):
Yes. So we can do--that's the cool thing about
specimen-based ornithology. Onceyou have a bird in the hand, you
not only have a wealth of datathat you can tap right now,
With the university--so thereare students here not--one
tomorrow, next week, but youhave a wealth of data you can
tap one year, 10 years, acentury from now as well. And so
it's that act of taking a samplefrom the environment and
(08:42):
bringing it into the museum.
Sitting at the lab table, as yousaid, Jack does every day,
preparing specimens that--you'regetting them set for archiving,
and then we're also preservingall the data with them. So that,
not only is it just an objectthat you're preserving for long
term, it's all the dataassociated with that object. And
then which I'm sure you'll getto, once it's computerized. We
(09:06):
can link future data, developfrom that specimen to that
specimen. So I mentionedgenetics and genomics. Every
time we produce a genetic dataset, or a genomic data set from
a bird, we try to choose a birdthat has a really comprehensive
archived sample in thecollection, the best quality
sample we can get. So that wecan tie that genetic and genomic
(09:29):
data to that animal, thatindividual animal. And when we
take our datasets and depositthem into national and
international data repositories,they're linked by number to that
object back here in thecollection itself. And so it
produces a network of data. Andthen also, we haven't talked
about the multiple pieces thatwe preserve each bird that make
(09:52):
it even more useful. We're notjust preserving genetics We're
not just preserving a skin.
We're usually preservingskeletal material, an extra
tissue sample, because freezingis not very dependable. The
first freezers are mechanicaland they break. And so we'd like
to say that we can freeze thingsin perpetuity, but nobody's
(10:16):
demonstrated that really yet outbeyond a few decades.
labor, two education, threetheir own research and future
careers, a lot of potentialconnection to students, how
(10:37):
many? How do they help you?
Jack Withrow (10:38):
Well, they hit all three, or four of our sort of
mission statements stuff, justas to what you just said. Coming
from the labor side, that'sgreat. But they also get
invaluable training and hands-onexperience. And that's all part
and parcel of researcheducation. Different parts of
the museum hit different aspectsof research education and
(11:01):
collections in different ways.
Kevin Winker (11:02):
Jack's absolutely right, the students are involved
Being someone involved in theexhibits department here, I had
in all phases. And one of ourmain missions here is not just
to grow the collection, but alsoto use the collection and to
train the next generation ofcollections-based biologists.
And so, students come through,some of them come through just
(11:23):
to learn how to be museumtechnicians. We often have
undergraduate employees. Andtheir experiences in handling
specimens, handling data andlearning complicated techniques,
whether it's in the bird lab orin the molecular lab, is part of
their portfolio, that trainingportfolio that they take forward
(11:45):
into the into the larger worldto be professional biologists.
They also--graduate students dotheir own research. So all the
students associated, all thegraduate students associated
with us are doing thesis-basedresearch. And then that, by that
I mean that, each of them willproduce two or three thesis
(12:07):
chapters, which eventually willbe publications about research,
that's usually in our case,centered on the collection in
some way. And there are many,many, many types of questions
that can be asked of thecollection. And so we get a
diversity of students who areinterested in really a variety,
(12:29):
a crazy variety of things thatthey might be able to do. And we
figured out, we usually onlygive them the Go ahead, if it's
likely that they can succeed inwhat they're proposing to do.
a couple of questions aboutexhibits. And the first ones on
But there are an endless numberof questions that can be
answered with a specimen basis,about birds and about the
(12:50):
environments that those birdslive in.
the paper, just like one I justthought of just beforehand. As
in when we talk about seeingbirds on exhibit, as we've
talked about many times, it'simportant to understand the
difference between a mounted,aesthetically pleasing, you
(13:11):
know, public-facing specimen,and what, on the other hand, is
useful for research useful forarchiving. And we've talked
before about differences. Andyou mentioned the problems with
light and putting valuablespecimens on exhibit and having
them bleached. Yes, under lightsand that some of you could talk
a little bit about thatdifference. And but but much
(13:32):
more--like the second idea Ihad, which is like what, what
you would like to see onexhibit?
The main difference betweenbirds that go into the research
collection and birds on exhibitis the is the amount of effort
and artistry put into a birdpreserve for exhibit is wildly
different than a bird put intothe research collection. So the
(13:55):
research collection bird is aconstruct, so you all the
insides are out so they can'trot that's the case in both of
them. But then, with theresearch specimen, we're using
minimal stuffing, if you will,to get them preserved in a shape
that makes them useful, butdoesn't take up much space. And
(14:19):
so a research bird specimen islaying on its back with its
wings closed cotton eyeballs anda stick. Running through the
interior from the base of thebill out to the in our case, the
end of the tail that the feetare tied to or foot if is if we
use the skeleton. Eyes closed onthe back wings closed, as
(14:40):
compact as it can be made sothat it can lay in a shallow
specimen tray with all of itsfellows in a row and then
another trade being right on topof that and so when you open the
specimen cabinet, you simply seea series of shallow drawers or
trays, each of which contains asmany scientific specimens as we
(15:04):
can fit on that. And so it'scompact, it's got cotton
eyeballs. And it's put away inthis kind of an archival
facility for both present andfuture use. And we don't pull
those trays out very often. Butwhen we do, we're pulling out
(15:26):
either a specific birds or Ishould mention that we're a
public institution and a lendingfacility. And museums are tight
network research collections area tight network globally. And so
what once something's archivedhere, computerized, it's
available for researchersanywhere. And so we're commonly
(15:48):
sending out the pieces that wepreserve to other researchers
elsewhere, as well as using theminternally. So it's a, it's a
very dynamic archive, both withthings going in, and things
going out, on loan, and thencoming back. Contrary to that
exhibit pieces are elaboratelyposed, compared to scientific
(16:11):
specimens, wonderful glass eyes,and they're a pleasure to see.
As you can imagine, you've gotone over your head right now, it
looks just like a bird percheddown on the tree branch in your
yard. Those are hard to storecompactly. And so those do not
make good research specimens.
They also don't have tagshanging from them. Every museum
(16:31):
specimen that we preserve has alabel that accompanies it, that
gives the data about that bird.
And that would that would bereally ugly. If every if every
exhibited specimen at a labelhanging off of it.
Jack Withrow (16:45):
They basically have different purposes. This
mount is designed to catch youreye, look pretty, make you think
about something, help you conveythe science in this study skins,
you know, they just have adifferent purpose. And you don't
need series and series ofmounted birds to convey
something. They're all differentspecies, you know, that
(17:06):
menagerie type thing, andsampler could do that. But you
don't generally need a series aswe say as the same, or what
looks like the same bird. Sothey have different purposes.
For the most part, you could useeven the they have cross
purposes, I guess you coulddisplay research specimen to
(17:26):
talk about research specimensand why we have this type and
that type. But they they'redifferent effectively, because
they have different goals.
Roger Topp (17:33):
And we're going to do that with the western coast
cases, we had some drawers, sothey can remain closed most of
the time. And they'll havespecimens on their backs.
Jack Withrow (17:42):
So, it again comes back to the mission of--you got
the education part, the researchpart, the outreach part. And
both of those specimens, if youwant to call them out in bird
specimens.
Roger Topp (18:02):
A number of years ago, I put in a sort of request
for--if we come by a snowy owlspecimen, I'd love to see one on
exhibit, flying. And itsometimes takes a long time for
one that to get one into thefreezer. And when I asked for
that, it's a lot more work tocreate it. Maybe it's more fun
(18:26):
sometimes to do somethingdifferent. But how does that
work with the you know (18:29):
There's a specimen. It's a snowy owl now
on exhibit upstairs. I'mguessing that tissue was taken
for for the for the collection.
So, is there--was used in someways for research and can be
used for research even thoughthat was about a display.
Jack Withrow (18:47):
Yeah, there's a bit of a judgment call and given
the snowy owl that was probablysalvaged and had probably
minimal data. And, you know,it's just if someone really,
really, really wanted when theycould take one what's perfect
data and making it a mount. Youknow, it's white feathers is
probably not gonna fade toomuch. But like I said, that one
(19:08):
does have tissues, it does havea good sample, probably I
probably saved the skeleton Idon't recall. So again, we're
just balancing those sort ofthree big themes within the
museum to come up with somethingthat's mountable. We mounted it
in house, which probably savedsomewhere between 500 and a
1,000 bucks. Maybe it doesn'tlook perfect, but it looks good
(19:32):
enough. And you know, yeah,probably takes three times as
long to make a mountain versus astudy skin. But it's that we're
just if a lot of how manyminutes do people spend looking
at it? That's probably more farmore now at this point than I
ever spent on it. And now wehave a store now that people
look at I don't think there wasone in the gallery before.
Roger Topp (19:53):
There definitely wasn't. And you know, the
Crested Auklet that's up by thebowhead--that's, I think people
whostarted to notice that--itcan go unnoticed for quite a
while. But that's that was athat was a great little gift
there for you to kind of puttogether that skeleton. And that
would be a much more difficultproject maybe, than just taking
Jack Withrow (20:12):
I mean, I let the bugs do most of the work. And so
this.
it's not--it's articulated Isuppose, but it's not every--in
most of the cases, the joints inthere are kept together by its
own ligaments. There is somewires there, some support, but
(20:32):
unlike the bowhead I think hasit--just every single bone put
together by wires and if notrebar or something similar. It
It took some time again it takesthat one probably took 10 times
as long as it takes to make askeleton which is what that
would have turned into with hadit not been put on display, but
still much less time than theowl probably. And that's it it
(20:57):
can engender much a bunch ofdifferent
conversations--probably eatingthe same things as well. He was
also taken by Alaska Nativessubsistence hunters. It's a High
Arctic endemic, or at least thenorth part of the Pacific
endemic. I mean, there's lots ofthings you can talk about about
it. It makes it nicejuxtaposition with the whale
(21:17):
since it's probably weights lessthan the smallest bone, the
whole bird. So it's just a nicelittle thing that you see if
you're paying attention.
Roger Topp (21:30):
What else what else?
What else would you love to seeon exhibit? Let's let's it's
getting any any thoughts.
Kevin Winker (21:36):
I think, for me, the traveling birdwatcher is a
person who we're not serving aswell as we might given our
location. And many people cometo Alaska in the summer to see
birds that they'll add to theirlife lists. Or if they just want
(21:56):
to see really cool birds anddon't even have a light list.
Alaska is a very big place. Manyof those birds that are unique
to Alaska in North America hardto get to, and few bird watchers
are going to see all the birdsthey like to see in one or two
even 10 trips. And so if wecould get some of those Alaska
(22:17):
specialties up in the gallery, Ithink that would make a lot of
mouths water.
Roger Topp (22:23):
So a mounted bird would satisfy a bit of the itch.
Kevin Winker (22:27):
Well, it's it gives you you get the chance to
see what they look like and, andperhaps feel the pull that
exotic animals give--everybodywant likes to see exotic
animals. That's why zoos are sopopular. And yet I'm seeing them
in the wild is hard. And so Irealized that exhibit gallery
(22:49):
isn't a zoo, but it's theclosest thing we can have to
Alaska specialty birds. And soyou know, through time, I hope
we might be able to get some upthere. One thing I wanted to
touch on, though, was directlywe've indirectly addressed it
one of the huge differencesbetween exhibit specimens and
research specimens is samplesize. We've talked about Jack
(23:13):
mentioned, you know, just oneand the difference that can make
and in Exhibit two, you rarelysee mounted--I've forgotten the
term. Well, dioramas in whichyou've got more than 5 or 10 of
any kind of animal. You open upone of those specimen drawers
(23:37):
and they're frequently 100, 150of one species. And that is one
of the things that makes aresearch collection really
useful. And it's--in science,it's called sample size. And as
an example, Alaska is huge. Ithas a lot of bird populations
and many of those birdpopulations are quite different
(23:58):
in plumage, and in size, andshape. And quantifying those
differences rigorously requiresgood sample sizes. And for
morphology, for example. Weoften say that, if you want to
quantify the size of birds in apopulation, the best way to
(24:19):
start is with 30 adult males and30 adult females--and adults are
bigger than than young of theyear. And so if you think about
that being the optimalmorphological sample size by
population, some people havedone calculations about the
world's birds, less than 1% ofthe world's birds are documented
(24:41):
to that level of effectiveness.
And so understanding differencesin similarities between
populations is one of the keypurposes to which birds bird
research collections are put.
And yet the that fine scale ofresolution is lacking. For most
of the taxa that we're commonlycollecting and adding to
(25:03):
collections.
Jack Withrow (25:04):
So if Kevin was talking about geographic,
temporal, and species gaps, thenonce you get within a species,
you got your sex differences,your age differences, your
geographic location differences.
So if you have 100 of onespecies, you're still knocking
out you're still the reason youneed more as you're rarely going
to have a sample size that canrobustly answer a question on
(25:24):
say, you know, the differencesand in all of the other
variables that you mightimagine, go into that age, sex
time of year, for different formolds, if you were looking at
molten birds or more continentor something like that terming
it as molting basically,throughout the year, many birds
just melt in the fall or falland spring. But if you wanted to
(25:45):
get a handle on that, with, youknow, more than one or two
birds, you know, here, you'regoing to need a lot of birds to
be able to confidently have alarge enough sample size, given
whatever question someone mightwant to ask about it.
Roger Topp (26:03):
It seems like something's really deceptive
about the exhibits, becauseyou're up there, and we have a
lynx on exhibit. One, but yet,whether it's a good lynxor not a
good lynx, since it's--
Kevin Winker (26:12):
It's one. yeah.
Roger Topp (26:14):
What does it mean?
Jack Withrow (26:14):
If you were a Martian and you came down to
earth and you saw one lynx, youwould know absolutely jack shit
about lynx. You wouldn't say--Is that a freakish lynx? What if
you got a melanistic lynx? Youknow, like, are they all look
like that? Well, if you've got10 of them lined up, you can say
a little bit more. If you have30 and 30 from lots of different
places, you could say a lot.
Roger Topp (26:37):
Add to which, if those mounts up there from any
of the collections or low datamounts, you don't know much
about that particular animal'sage?
Kevin Winker (26:46):
Yeah, we do tend to--we do tend to use a
specimens of less scientificvalue for exhibits when whenever
we can. But when you ask whatwe'd like upstairs, we'd also
like those in the collection.
And so what if we're ever goingto go out and get things
specifically for mounting, Iwould like to get 20 for the
(27:07):
research collection andsacrifice one for exhibits. From
this, it'd be a sacrifice fromthe science perspective. While
it would be the mission for anexhibit-based specimen
collecting effort.
(27:27):
Jack mentioned the term salvagea lot of what we bring in is
what we termed salvage thatstuff that's found dead. So any
way that a bird dies, and can bepreserved, usually temporarily
frozen. In the case of birdsthat come here, we collect them
from throughout the state peopleknow to route their dead birds
(27:49):
here. And we tell them to, ifthey find something dead, put it
in a plastic bag with a labelthat gives the date and location
of where they picked it up. Andwe get we get a lot of salvage
birds from window kills. Roadkills. Cat kills. What are some
(28:11):
other sources?
Jack Withrow (28:12):
Bash program at airports?
Kevin Winker (28:14):
Right. Yes. That's a big one. Yeah, keeping our
skies safe from not suckingbirds through jet engines, the
US Department of Agriculture,Wildlife Services. Once a bird
no longer can be frightened offthe runway, they shoot it.
Jack Withrow (28:32):
Agency projects, cast off people's studies on X,
Y or Z where they're not goingto use the whole animal, just
looking at stomachs orsomething.
Kevin Winker (28:42):
Yeah, and the salvage stream often contains
things that don't have muchdata. And those are really a
good source of things foreducation and exhibits, because
they they're of less value inthe scientific collection
because they lack data.
Roger Topp (28:59):
Let's talk a little bit about birders. I've never
been overly fascinated withbirds. And there's certainly a
phenomenon with life listers andbirders going long distances to
see species, but it's also ageneral interest probably in
birds in knowing what bird thatis or the sound that sound I
(29:20):
hear in that tree there. And soit seems that the research
collection with this checklistespecially isn't just serving
researchers, is serving the laypublic who are just interested
in birds.
Kevin Winker (29:34):
Very much so. And neither Jack nor I are
technically birders or birdwatchers, we both love to see
birds and experience birds. Ilove to know what birds making
that sound and the tree. Birdfeeders out in the yard,
watching birds. But neither ofus--
Jack Withrow (29:52):
We are defining birding relatively narrowly in
that way. Birding is sort ofsomeone who can just track of X
number of birds in y area. Butwe I guess we do it. I do it
professionally. I'm on theAlaska checklist committee. But
that's more--my interest in thatis more scientific than then
(30:17):
ticking things, I guess. Butthen there could be people who I
mean, there's everything fromthat from the casual observer of
birds who does not keep a list,but it's curious what they are
to someone who spends maybe even10s of 1000s of dollars in a
year and travels to far offplaces to put a name on a list
for a given area. Presumably, besomeone because it gives them
(30:41):
edification in some way shape,or form for you know, 1000s of
miles and spent a lot of moneyto see one bird for 30 seconds.
And that satisfies them and theymove on to the next thing.
Kevin Winker (30:52):
And usually those are listers, people who are
boosting their own lists, lifelist, North American list.
Roger Topp (30:59):
It's usually a little brown bird that's just
not in the right place?
Kevin Winker (31:03):
It's all--there are many colors.
Jack Withrow (31:06):
They are almost always situationally rare as
opposed to truly rare. They areout of place. That's a human
fascination with things that areout of place, and weird, and
they want to see. Most of thebirds that you list, quote,
unquote, would be far easier tosee somewhere else. But it's
more fun if you see them in aplace that's where they're not
(31:26):
expected, or mean,. really theexpected condition in birds is
that they move around. Sovagrant is an arguable term,
extra-liminal, might be better,whatever you want to call it,
though, it's eventually--they'regonna get around.
Kevin Winker (31:41):
And we provide the scientific basis for the entire
spectrum of bird appreciators totell them what birds are
officially recognized to occurin the state.
Roger Topp (31:51):
Right, so when you mentioned the before that the
the Bristle-thighed Curlew is abirder's bird, part of that--so
it's a very--it's an it existsin a particular area. And so
it's a birders destination to goto, go see this bird and it's in
that habitat.
Jack Withrow (32:08):
Sure, I mean, it's endemic as a breeding bird at
least to Alaska. Winters in theSouth Pacific. So it's right
there with Bar-tailed Godwit, along distance migrant What do I
mean by birder's bird? Yeah,it's not easy to see within
North America unless you come toAlaska or on a beach in Hawaii
(32:28):
or maybe I don't know how oftenthey actually stop in Hawaii but
yeah, it's not an easy bird see.
Roger Topp (32:34):
And yet it's quite seeable if you make the attempt.
Jack Withrow (32:37):
Yes. There are a lot of reasons, yeah, still may
have to drive to, you know getto know them and drive 50 miles
and walk five miles but --
Roger Topp (32:45):
But that missing bird there that was seen in
Dutch Harbor may not be theretomorrow when I arrive. We can
almost expect the Curlew, if Iget to the right place, the
Curlew would be--
Jack Withrow (32:55):
Kind of expensive effort, but yeah.
Kevin Winker (32:59):
Yeah, and people go all the way to Nome to see
Bristle-thighs and they don'tget to see him for weather,
timing, whatever it might be. Along trip.
Jack Withrow (33:09):
But that's one on a long list of birds birds and
again it's a birders bird ifthey want to see it. They get to
Kevin Winker (33:13):
And if--and if for many of them if they've already
define it, and if you see enoughof those people to find
something you go okay that'swhat they're interested in. And
you can kind of quantify whythat is and then around you can
guess whether it's going to beexciting
seen it if they've ticked thatbird, what's next? That's
(33:36):
yesterday's news. I've got tofind one that I haven't seen.
It's a very interesting hobby.
But yeah, bird tourism is animportant part of what makes
Alaska attractive to a lot ofvisitors so and coming, circling
back to exhibits, Yeah, we cando better to serve that sector
with some some of these highlydesirable birds on exhibit that
(33:58):
we don't get our hands on veryoften to tell the truth.
Roger Topp (34:06):
I'm more interested in birds and I lead on. We had a
boreal owl show for the secondtime in two years. It was in our
woodshed.
Jack Withrow (34:14):
Got a cavity in there.
Roger Topp (34:16):
No, t was just sitting there checking out the
the area around with tons andtons of voles. But I got within
10 feet with my 800 millimeterlens. had to back up because it
was too close. And it's justkind of staring at me-- but
yeah, no, it's nice to see.
Jack Withrow (34:32):
They're very approachable. Often anyway.
Roger Topp (34:36):
He's got the elevation on you, he's not too
scared. So, about maybe talkabout there is and I know I
talked to Kevin previously aboutthe landscape and the gridded
(34:59):
detail on the landscape. Isthere a connection there between
looking at the idea that, youknow, you have a lot of
collections in one place,because that's what people went
through people live. Maybe theycan actually talk about the
breadth of the state, ofgeography. But the idea that the
hotspots of collecting thathappen naturally, because
they're accessible, the rightperson goes there.
Kevin Winker (35:22):
There are hotspots in the state that have been
important throughout historybecause they're accessible, just
as there are spots, WesternInterior that are almost
depauperate of specimens,because they're really hard to
get to. Plus, there's probablynot a lot that's super
interesting there. But there arepopulations that haven't been
(35:43):
sampled, of birds that occurhere, for example. But we're not
going to--I don't know any placethat's that's been sampled in a
grid like manner, evenly.
Jack Withrow (35:55):
It'd probably be a waste of resources to do it that
way.
Kevin Winker (35:58):
It probably would be Yeah.
Jack Withrow (36:00):
Depending on your question, I mean, but for what
we do, it's complicated. Why themap looks the way it does when
you look at numbers ofspecimens. And some of those are
truly hotspots that we made apoint of going to and some of
them are a combination ofaccessibility and chance. And
some of them are right when itcomes right down to it. There
(36:22):
are certainly places that aremore important than others. But
that's a constantly evolvingkind of question. We get a bunch
from here, that lay off on thatplace for a little while trying
to focus efforts elsewhere. Butthat's it's a lot of
happenstance that goes into thatas well.
Kevin Winker (36:38):
You remind me of something that I noticed when I
first came up here, and we havenot been able to rectify this
yet. But that accident ofaccessibility has caused there
to be a whole bunch ofsubspecies of birds. Subspecies
are populations that arerecognizable because of their
phenotypic differences. So aslight difference in body size,
(36:59):
a slight difference in plumagecoloration. Those are often the
bases for describing subspecies.
Thesea are phenotypically,largely recognizable populations
within a broader species.
Anyway, there are a lot ofsubspecies of birds, described
from Western Canada, Yukon, andfrom Eastern Alaska, different
subspecies, and the only reasonthey're considered different
(37:21):
subspecies is because thecollectors from Canada got to
the end to Canada and turnedaround and went the other way.
And the collectors from Alaskawent to Eastern Alaska and hit
the border with Canada andturned back home. And so it's an
artificial barrier, becausethere's nothing biologically to
prevent the birds from Easternor Western Canada, breeding
(37:43):
happily with the birds ofEastern Alaska, and it's
unlikely that many of thoseputative subspecies boundaries
are valid, and we've notundertaken the effort that it
would take to sample across thatartificial barrier, that human
caused international barrier todemonstrate that many of those
taxa are--
Jack Withrow (38:03):
Do you have an example of that?
Kevin Winker (38:05):
I've forgotten, though I wrote a proposal about
it once it wasn't funded. Andthen we couldn't get collecting
permits for the Yukon. And so Ijust said, you know, I'm just
not going to pursue that. Oh,one was Ralph Brownings Yellow
Warblers.
Unknown (38:20):
Over split anyways, right?
Kevin Winker (38:22):
Yeah. But there were others there. And I
realized when I started to seethis weird boundary showing up
that it's just the fact thatthere's an international border
there and the collections whenthe collections never got
assembled in one place to beable to compare them. Anyway,
(38:42):
that's the kind of thing where atransect approach would be quite
useful.
Roger Topp (38:49):
Before we run out of time, maybe circling back to
migrants. There must be realbarriers to air travel.
Kevin Winker (38:57):
You mean in the long term sense among migrants?
Evolutionarily?
breeding habitat? Yeah, that'sgoing to be the driver. It turns
Roger Topp (39:04):
Yeah.
out that intercontinentalmigration is much rarer globally
than within continent migration.
And so populations tend to havemore highly migratory taxa.
Populations tend to splitcontinentally,
inter-continentally, within acontinent, it's much harder for
migrants to become isolated andto to differ. But we saw we saw
(39:26):
historically, the Last GlacialMaximum caused some profound
differences in migratorymovements with that large sheet
of ice covering much of NorthAmerica, habitats that are
currently wide open for borealforest breeders, for example,
were not present. And so thosekinds of barriers existed. They
(39:47):
were probably important--abarrier like that was probably
important for the formation ofthe McKay's Bunting, as an
example. They probably underwentsome degree of isolation up here
in the on the Bering Land Bridgein the unglaciated portion of
Beringia. But it is harder to doso. For a migratory bird, the
(40:10):
work that I've done suggeststhat geography isn't as much of
a barrier as the change ofseasons through latitude and
time. And so an example I givein my class for ornithology is
that Orange Crowned Warblers areprobably on territory and
breeding like crazy inCalifornia right now. But I look
(40:31):
out the window and we still gottwo feet of snow on the ground.
Our Orange Crowned Warblersaren't here. Where are they?
They're hanging out inCalifornia, but they're not
breeding. And so--and they'redifferent subspecies of Orange
Crowned Warbler is between
Kevin Winker (40:49):
So, they're, what these migrants are trying to do
Alaska and California. And soit's that barrier of where and
when to nest that's probablypreventing those populations
from crossing exceptionallyoften. So allows them to
differentiate a bit. So it'sless geography than phenology.
Progression of a breeding seasonacross entire species range. So
(41:13):
the Alaska Orange crowd, we'restill waiting in California, are
starting to migrate north. Butthere's no time for them to stop
and breed and come and breed inAlaska. And they're adapted to
an Alaska breeding season. Andthey're all--their gonads are
still tiny and will be untilthey just before they arrive.
(41:35):
That explain?
is they're trying to maximizetheir reproductive success. And
they're taking advantage ofthese resource blooms that
occur. And we have a phenomenalresource bloom here in the high
north with very long summerdays. Very high summer
productivity, and fewerparasites and predators probably
(41:59):
also than--
Roger Topp (42:06):
Sounds very behavioral, like Alaskans will
vacation in Hawaii but notFlorida.
Jack Withrow (42:12):
The seasons change north to south, not east to
west. So the migrants are gonnago up and down, if you will, on
the globe. And that's why youhave less east to west. It still
happens. But it's rare, becauseHawaii's closer, so we just go
straight down as opposed tojogging. It's a long way, right?
(42:33):
Because--why that pattern existsis because birds want to take
the shortest route to spend thewinter somewhere warm.
Kevin Winker (42:40):
So, actually, that gets at some really weird stuff.
They, they don't take theshortest route. They kind of
follow ancestral patterns.
Jack Withrow (42:49):
But if you go deep enough back in time, that's got
to be part a part of that,whether they take a circuitous
route, because there's astopover site, or the winds
happen do that. And that's kindof I'm talking to you in at a
higher altitude.
Roger Topp (43:03):
And will go out of our way for lunch here because
it's usually well,
Kevin Winker (43:07):
But here's, there's--there's some really
weird stuff. Blackpoll Warblersfrom interior Alaska, they're
going to winter in SouthAmerica, they don't go straight
to South America. They go allthe way to the east coast of
North America to do the freakinMaine, fatten up and cross the
Atlantic Ocean to get down toSouth America instead of taking
(43:28):
a reasonable route.
Jack Withrow (43:31):
But that's still got them within you know, some
bounds of longitude.
Kevin Winker (43:35):
Boy, yeah, but they're, they're crossing the
most of the continent. It'scrazy. It's really weird. So
there's some really strangeroutes in birds. Part of it's
gonna be wind part of it's allthat stuff.
Jack Withrow (43:48):
Many of the other day go migrate, roughly north to
south is is because of theseasons.
Kevin Winker (43:56):
Yeah, but there, but there's a case in Swainsons
Thrushes, or another one whereyou've got a phenomenal east
west movement going on as well.
Jack Withrow (44:04):
It's a tiny aspect of the north - south. I mean,
it's like what 10% of the northsouth movement is a tight small
relative to the north south, Iwould assume.
Kevin Winker (44:14):
In Blackpolls. No, it's probably--it's probably
pretty close to the same thingthat--
Jack Withrow (44:18):
I think we need a globe, but I doubt--
Roger Topp (44:19):
Yeah, we need a string and a globe.
Kevin Winker (44:23):
We want a globe.
There are some super freakishavian migrations that don't make
sense there. Because there's somany cases where they're not
simply taking the shortest routeand we can't see why.
Roger Topp (44:35):
But we can assume there was a good reason at some
point in time. They wereobviously was a driver--
Kevin Winker (44:39):
Yeah, one of the main one of the main hypotheses
is the expansion of habitat, thedirection that took and so
Roger Topp (44:42):
The Geography there isn't a barrier. It's just more
boreal forest is boreal forestsfrom western Alaska to eastern
Canada. And a lot of those--soone of the cool things about
Alaska is that, you know, lower48. You've got an eastern North
American avifauna in a westernNorth American avifauna. By the
time you get up to Alaska, thatbecomes a north to south
(45:05):
relationship with the birds herein Fairbanks being more closely
associated with the easternNorth American forest birds than
with the Western. And then yougo across the Alaska Range and
of a guide.
it's more Western than Eastern.
Kevin Winker (45:18):
The mountains are a barrie,r and the mountains,
the lack of mountains, orrelative lack of mountains
enable the eastern NorthAmerican birds to colonize
interior Alaska.
Roger Topp (45:39):
Yeah, I like how you guys are facing in the direction
this room that I am. And youyou're definitely referring to
maps on the wall somewhere abovemy head.
Kevin Winker (45:47):
Yes. Yes. There's when I got three maps hanging on
the wall. Only one isPacific-centered, which is the
way the world looks from abird's perspective up here. It's
an exciting place and anexciting time to be an
ornithologist. Just generally,it is. Yeah.
Roger Topp (46:08):
It's not just that we're hoping for spring at some
point here.
Kevin Winker (46:11):
No, no, it's exciting all winter too, because
then we get to study birds inthe cabinets, in the collection.
So I'm running. I'm runningthrush genomes on that computer
right behind you right now.
Roger Topp (46:25):
So, this is your pitch for more and more people
to come and stud,y undergrads tolearn, learn, take apart birds.
Kevin Winker (46:33):
Well,we're gonna bring in a bunch of new grad
students here as soon as well.
It's a great time to be anornithologist. It's great place
to be here in Alaska studyingbirds, and we didn't touch on
how important--I did touch onhow important wintering areas
are to Alaska birds. And Alaskabirds winter on every continent.
(46:53):
Elsewhere in North America,South America, Australia, Asia,
even some make it to Europe inthe way of--one species that
winters every winter in Africa.
So we're very connected inAlaska's avifauna. So and that's
(47:16):
where we need to study a littlebit more. What happens to these
birds when they're not here?
What are they exposed to? Whatare they a whole host of
questions?
Roger Topp (47:27):
Fantastic. well, thank you guys.
Kevin Winker (47:28):
Thank you, Roger.
Roger Topp (47:32):
Thank you to Kevin Winkler and Jack Withrow for the
conversation and theirenthusiasm for preparing birds
both for study and display. Myfavorite mount on display at the
museum is that of the CrestedAuklet skeleton that swims
alongside that of the BowheadWhale in the main lobby. Though
my favorite bird-related exhibitis that of a replica 3d printed
(47:55):
lynx track in snow, bird-relatedbecause while I was
photographing the track to makethe exhibit model, one of the
barnyard chickens walked by andput her footprint right across
that of the cat. 'That'll work,'I said. The More You Look is a
production of the UA Museum ofthe North on the campus of the
(48:15):
University of Alaska Fairbanksand the ancestral lands of the
Dena people of the lower TananaRiver. UAMN illuminates the
natural history and culturalheritage of Alaska and the North
through collections, research,education, and partnerships, and
by creating a singular museumexperience that honors diverse
(48:36):
knowledge and respect for theland and its peoples. Thank you
for listening. Please subscribe,share, and rate the program.
This helps other listenersdiscover more about not only the
work of this museum, but quitepossibly, other museums in their
neighborhoods. The more youlook, the more you find.
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