Nobody Kicks Ass Without Tanker Gas: Leadership Lessons at 20,000 Feet with Mark Hasara

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Warriors fall in, it's time for formation.
Welcome back to another episodewhere we dive deep into the
stories of survivability,strategy and leadership from
those who've lived it on thefront lines.
Today, I'm honored to sit downwith a true patriot and warrior,
lieutenant Colonel Mark Hasara,a retired US Air Force officer
with decades of experience inaerial refueling and operational

(00:21):
planning.
Lieutenant Colonel Hasara hassupported some of the most
critical combat missions inrecent history and today we're
going to get more into it hisleadership and his mentorship
and his national securityadvocacy.
Sir, I want to thank you forjoining me on the podcast today.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
KP.
It's great to be with you,brother, and I really appreciate
this opportunity to talk to you.
We've got a lot of stuff totalk about and I'm going to give
you examples of training,leadership, mentorship and some
really crazy operationalplanning things where I screwed
up.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
It'll be a lot of fun .
Failing is one of the bestthings in life, because it
causes you to have to brushyourself off and get back up.
And, as a leader, it causes youto have to brush yourself off
and get back up.
And as a leader, uh, you know,it's it to me.
I've learned over the yearsthat failing is okay.
Failing forward is what's mostimportant.
So, uh, I just wanted tomention too.
Like you, you go by sluggoright.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, s L U G G O is uh how they spell it.
I got it when I was in pilottraining, uh, kp.
So I got it when I was in pilottraining, kp.
So I got it really early, allright, what was?
that about my birth certificate.
I weighed 10 pounds 14 ouncesand was 23 and a half inches
tall when I was born.
Wow, yeah, I was a big kid.
I was a really big kid.
My dad told me a story.

(01:38):
He says people would go by thenursery at Sentinella Hospital.
I was born in Englewood atSentinella hospital and people
would go by and go.
What's that three month olddoing in there?
My dad had just smiled.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
You were overcooked man.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
I was.
I was.
I came out, you know, red witha lot of, uh, black hair.
Okay, and all that black hair,all that dark brown hair, turned
gray when I was about 28.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
Wow, so so you, so you go by Sluggo.
And then, how many years didyou serve in the military?

Speaker 2 (02:15):
24 and a half, 24 years, six months, 29 days is
what it says on my DD 214.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Wow, and, and you know what I loved every minute
of it, and so you were involvedin how many different conflicts.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Desert Storm was my first, then Kosovo in 1999.
And then Afghanistan and IraqiFreedom, the Shakanah campaign
and Desert Storm.
I was flying KC-135s, I wasflying the old A models, the old
water-burning engines, and then, right after the war ended, we

(02:55):
came home back to Okinawa, whereI was stationed at Kadena, and
our squadron upgraded to the Rmodel with the new CFM-56
engines, which was, you know,it's a great, great airplane.
So Afghanistan and Iraqobviously were, you know, sad

(03:15):
because of what happened on 9-11.
From 1999 to 2001, I stood upand was the deputy commander of
the KC-135, at that time calledCombat Employment School, now
the 509th Weapon Squadron of thefamous US Air Force Weapon
Squadron Weapon School, andthere was only two lieutenant
colonel graduates of the school,me as a deputy commander and my

(03:40):
boss, bobby Fowler, and we'lltalk about this too.
The colonel that I was workingfor actually fired me and said
your leadership is no longerneeded here, and we'll get into
this when we talk aboutleadership and everything.
So that was April of 2001.

(04:01):
Everything changed on 9-11, asyou can imagine, eight days
later I was in the Gulf flyingmissions.
I was the chief of the airfueling control team three times
during Operation Anaconda which, as you well know, did not go
well.
You know I was watching theBattle of Roberts Ridge in real
time off of a Predator Ridge inreal time off of a Predator.

(04:27):
Then the run-up to the secondGulf War.
It was called OperationSouthern Focus, where we just
started nugging down targets inIraq, and then for the Shakanah
campaign too.
But I have test experience.
I worked at our OperationalTest and Evaluation Center it's
crazy, kp because I'm a tankerguy never shot a gun, never
dropped a bomb, never released amissile and I had all joint
weapons, you know, like JDAMAIM-9X small diameter bomb,

(04:53):
those kinds of things, which wasa lot of fun.
And that was my last assignmentin the Air Force.
I left in 2007.
I went to work for RockwellCollins for about seven years
and then they sequestered youknow all the money from my
programs.
I got laid off and I said youknow what?
I can go live on my pension andand do some other things.

(05:14):
And that's when I wrote my booktanker pilot lessons from the
cockpit, which is this book here.
I took that picture from thebackseat of an F-15, by the way.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
Oh, wow, that's your picture.
Yeah, that's my picture, that'snot stock.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
No, I took that picture from the backseat of an
F-15.
I have a lot of flying time inother airplanes, including 10
catapult-assisted takeoffs and10 arrested landings on eight
aircraft carriers.
I'm a joint warfighter.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
I was designated what's called a joint specialty
officer because I taught at theJoint Forces Staff College and
taught campaign planning forthree years.
I've met so many pilots and allyou guys are so highly
technical, highly educated and alot of times you guys don't
give yourselves enough credit,that's for sure.
Like I've talked to top gunpilots before, helicopter pilots
in the Army, I've worked withthem exclusively in Iraq and you

(06:09):
guys are definitely lifesavers.
Everything that you do, youknow and I can't thank you
enough for doing you know, foryour service of 24 years
supporting our troops andsupporting our soldiers out
there on the lines.
Now you mentioned when youtransitioned out of the military
.
You worked for Rockwell.
What is?

Speaker 2 (06:28):
that Rockwell Collins .
Rockwell Collins is avionics.
It is now branched off intoother things because it was
bought out by Raytheon, I thinkowns it now.
But we did cockpits okay, and Ihad flown in a lot of different
airplanes and I was actually asystems engineering manager of a

(06:50):
team of about 12.
And I would joke with my boss,kp Toshi, I've gone as far in
engineering as my politicalscience degree will allow you
know, political science degreewill allow you know.
But the thing, the great thing,kp, of being a systems

(07:10):
engineering manager was I got tosee what was behind the
instrument panel.
You know what is in amultifunction display, what
makes it run, how does thegraphics run, how do you program
it, how do you maintain it,those kinds of things.
And I and I really learned a lotin the seven years that I was
there at Rockwell Collins.
Um, I got to fly a lot ofreally cool simulators.

(07:32):
Uh, they would have some of uspilots you know that were in the
military.
Uh, fly different.
We had a reconfigurable cockpitwhere they could put big
displays, small displays, newradios, all those kinds of
things in it.
And the base that they flew atKP was Jackson Hole, wyoming oh

(07:55):
yeah, because it's up high.
So during the summer it's hot,you know, and the air pressure's
down, you know hot and humid,you know, which affects
performance.
And then you know hot and humid, you know which affects
performance.
And then, of course, during thewinter, you have monster
snowstorms, you know blizzards,and so you had all four
different kinds of weather thatyou could fly through KP and

(08:17):
really test these new avionics.
And you know, like the heads-upguidance systems, you'll go into
a cockpit of an airliner nowand I have this piece of glass.
You know, down in heads upguidance systems.
You'll go into a cockpit of aof a airliner now and I have
this piece of glass.
You know down in front of thepilot and, uh, that has really
changed the way a lot of uhpilots do things, because it
will literally take you rightdown to the runway and, um, it

(08:39):
was just a lot of fun, like Isaid, said learning what was
behind the instrument panel, andthen, uh, I did the sales and
services.
You know how you maintain thosethings.
One of our biggest contractswas with 160th soar, because the
cockpits of their little birds,their mh 60s, uh, mh 47s, is

(09:02):
all made by rockwell.
So you.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
So you mentioned something as simple as putting a
glass sort of at like at thefeet of the pilots, where you
can see the runway is, is, ishelpful.

Speaker 2 (09:15):
It's, it's a, it's a HUD in front of you like this.
Oh, it's a heads up guidances.
So you've got this.
When you walk into an airlinecockpit, some of them have them.
When you walk into an airlinecockpit, some of them have them,
some of them don't.
I've seen this.
They have this big piece ofglass that folds down in front
of you.
Right, it's just like theheads-up display on a fighter.
Okay, you're not dealing withdropping bombs or, you know,
shooting the gun or anythinglike that.
But what you're dealing with isyou're using that KP, because

(09:40):
it's very precise when you'relocked into, like like an
instrument landing system or ILSapproach.
But the really cool thing isyou have what's called EVS
enhanced vision system, which isa camera, an infrared camera,
on the outside of the airplaneKP, and it sees down through the
Merc.
So you know all the bad weatherand everything.

(10:03):
This thing actually sees downthrough it.
And the other piece of thepuzzle, too, is what's called
synthetic vision.
So when you're flying into, likeI mentioned, jackson Hole,
wyoming, it actually puts allthe terrain on the display in
front of you, okay,synthetically, and it shows you

(10:24):
where all the mountains are,where all the peaks are
everything, but it also putsthat up on the heads-up guidance
system.
So it not only helps you get tothe runway in bad weather, but
it's also a big safety feature,kp, because now you can see
what's around you around theairplane due to this enhanced
vision system, this camera,infrared camera, and the

(10:47):
synthetic vision of the terrainthat's around you.
It makes it really safe to gointo some of these really high
altitude.
You know, going into a mountainbowl valley, so to speak,
particularly like Aspen allright, aspen's a really crazy
approach where you're coming inover the mountains like Aspen
All right, aspen's a reallycrazy approach where you're
coming in over the mountains andand it's kind of funny because

(11:09):
the terrain avoidance systemwill go off on the approach you
know, terrain, terrain, terrain,because you go over this big
peak as you come and turn andcome into the runway and all of
that is all presented on thispiece of glass right in front of
you.
And, uh, you know, for all themilitary fighter pilots that
were HUD cripples, this makeslife easy for them.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, they have those on commercial airlines too,
right?
Yeah, because I recall like Iwas in a 787.
I have a cousin that flies forHawaiian Airlines and he let me
get in the I think it was a 787simulator out there in Hawaii
and I want to say that I doremember that that screen that
folded down, yeah, um, I wouldnot make a good pilot, like,
I'll tell you that right now Iwas terrible man.

(11:51):
It was.
It was so hard to do, so hardto control, and like the pedals
and everything I was controlling.
I mean, you guys are highlytechnical and and are quick on
your feet and decisive.
Um, but and I want to take itback to the beginning At what
point did you realize that youwanted to get into this type of,
like, highly technical,professional type of job?

(12:12):
You, you were born in Englewood, you did, you grow up in
Southern California and then,yeah, and then you mentioned
Orange County, fountain Valley,all those kinds of things.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Okay, um, kp, my aviation journey started where
you're at, in SouthernCalifornia, at Los Angeles
International Airport in the1960s.
Okay, I was about five years old.
My grandfather and grandmother,my paternal grandparents, lived
about two miles or less fromLAX, so I could actually watch

(12:49):
airplanes from their backyardland on the Sepulveda runways.
And so, as a five-year-old kidmy sister, seven years old, me
at five years old, my youngerbrother, four years old we'd
stand on the hood of GrandpaAndy's car, underneath the
approach paths to the runways,the two south runways, and at

(13:13):
that time there wasn't anyfences or anything.
There were jackrabbits runningeverywhere.
And I remember this.
You know, here I am 67, almost68 years old and I still
remember this feeling andeverything.
When this happened, we werestanding on the hood of grandpa
Andy's car and 707s and DCeights and jetliners were just

(13:38):
coming into being.
Okay, american airlines was707s, pan Am, uh, with DC-8s,
united, and at that time theydidn't have a displaced runway,
so the runway was literallyright across the fence.
As you know where thoserailroad tracks are If you've
ever been there, there'srailroad tracks on Aviation
Boulevard and then you have therailroad tracks.

(13:58):
Then you have the end of therunway and a 707 went over the
top of us and I could feel itgoing to ground effect, pushing
us down, the air underneath it,the pillow of air underneath the
airplane pushing us down.
It was really humid that day,you know, because it's by the
beach, and so vortexes werecoming off of the wingtips and
off the corner of the flaps,which you can hear, okay, it's

(14:22):
this sound okay.
And I remember being pusheddown on Grandpa Andy's hood and
feeling that go over the top ofme.
And then an American Airlines707 taxi's up and they're
waiting for a while and thepilot, the captain, opens his
window and he's got it open andof course he's got his head down
doing all kinds of stuff andwe're just kids, we're just

(14:44):
waving like crazy, and finallyhe looks at us and he sees us
and he kind of sticks himselfout and he waves to us.
You know, enjoy the takeoff,kids.
And then he shuts the windowand takes off.
And that's when I said to myselfwhy work for a living when I
can do this?
And from then on I studiedairplanes.
I studied airplanes by buildingplastic model planes, reading

(15:05):
books, watching movies, talkingto a lot of pilots.
So, you know, I was born inSouthern California but I was
actually raised in the San Josearea and I had a lot of airline
pilots that lived around me.
One flew 707s for Western, oneflew for Pan Am or no TWA, you
know, and I talked to them allthe time, incessantly learning

(15:28):
all that I could about theaviation world, and so from a
very, very young age, I knewwhat I wanted to do.
I wanted to fly 707s, and for24 years I got to fly a 707,
like the one you see behind meand loved every minute of it.

(15:49):
I loved the air refuelingmission all right, and everybody
goes to pilot training andwants to be, you know, a fighter
pilot.
All right, right.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
Everybody wants to kick doors down.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
Right.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
But you know I didn't do well enough in pilot
training.
As a matter of fact, I almostwashed out but I finished, got
my wings and I flew KC-135s for,like I said, 24 years and I got
to.
I was fortunate enough to beable to do it in all different
aspects of air refueling, enoughto be able to do it in all

(16:27):
different aspects of airfueling.
I have time in British tankers,kc-10s.
I even had S3 Viking time offof an aircraft carrier and I
think that's something I wouldtell all of your listeners is I
had a lot of people tell me Iwasn't a good school student.
All right, because I wasstudying airplanes.
And I had a lot of mycounselors tell me you know, you

(16:50):
don't have the math scores orthe science scores, you know,
and pilots have to have math andscience, all that kind of stuff
.
And I had a P-47 pilot thatlived next to me in San Jose, kp
.
His name was Ed Reinhart.
He flew with the 56 fightergroup, okay, the famous
Thunderbolt group, okay, andFrancis Grabeski.

(17:12):
All these guys were people heflew with.
And I was telling him one day inhigh school I just come home
and I had another counselormeeting.
You know, what do you want todo with your life?
I'm going to go fly airplanes.
No, you don't have the mathscores.
You're on the science course.
And I told him.
I says I'm so depressed and sodiscouraged by this because
they're telling me you know, Idon't have the aptitude for this

(17:34):
.
And he goes, he goes, mark,it's all BS what they're telling
you.
I didn't have math science, Iwasn't a good student and yet I
flew P-47s all over Europe withone of the greatest groups of
men that has ever walked theface of the planet.
Don't believe in it.
Don't believe it.
If you want it bad enough, goget it.
And that's what I tell all yourlisteners.

(17:55):
Okay, if you have a goal, thatyou want to be a pilot, then go
do it.
Go do it okay, because rightnow is the best time to become a
pilot.
We're hurting for pilots, notjust in the military, but in the
commercial side too.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah, and I love, I love your story, man, because I
was in the same boat Like I.
Uh, I was told by my guidancecounselor that I wasn't college
material, I wasn't allowed totake college classes, I didn't
have the best grades in theworld, but that was because of
external circumstances of myhome life not being very
together, so I could neverconcentrate, um, but I knew that

(18:37):
I wanted to go to college.
I knew I wanted to do certainthings and I love how you were
told no, but then you ran intothat one person that told you
don't believe them.
And that's a great message fortoday, for folks out there that
might be listening, that youknow, don't limit yourself to
the end of your block.
Like, think about beyond thehorizon something bigger.

(18:59):
Um, that's an amazing story.
And what, what made you go toBYU.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
Oh, Brigham Young University.
I'm a member of the LDS churchand, and so that's where I ended
up and, and literally, KP.
I went down BYU's catalog and Isaid what will get me out of
here the fastest?
Okay, that's how I picked mymajor.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
Poli-Sci.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
Exactly KP.
That's exactly what it was.
Okay, and guess what?
Byu had a national securitytrack, and so I could study all
of the workings of the nationalsecurity apparatus.
But KP, I wasn't interested init.
I was a C student in college.

(19:42):
Me too.
That's not what I wanted tobecome.
I didn't want to become apolitician or a political
scientist.
I did it because that's whatwas required of me.
To be a pilot, I had to have afour-year degree.
A friend of mine flew with anF-111 pilot.
You know what his degree was in.

Speaker 1 (20:02):
Modern dance and jazz dance.
I was going to gonna saycriminal justice, but that's
even worse.
You know what he?

Speaker 2 (20:06):
you know why he did it?
Because he knew he could meetmore women by doing that.
Okay so he had a plan he had aplan, okay, but again and and
that's kind of on me that Iwasn't a good student all right,
I just wanted to get throughschool and get into pilot
training, all right.
And so my study habits weren'treal good when I got to pilot

(20:32):
training and I suffered for thatwhen I was going through pilot
training.
But I still made it throughbecause I wanted it more than
other people, right, and I sawpeople that were about to wash
out or had washed out, and I hadone of them come up and tell me
hey, you're struggling throughthis, you need to just leave and
I'm going.
No, I'm finishing.
You know, I don't care what youthink, okay, I don't care what

(20:53):
my counselor thinks, I don'tcare what you think, my goal was
to fly 707s as a kid and I'mgoing to do it and I did.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
I love the stubbornness, man.
I love the stubbornness because, at the end of the day, it's
it's that grit.
And I I used to explain toemployers cause, when I was
getting out of the army, theythey told me like, hey, like,
when you interview, the otherpeople that are going to be
interviewing that same day withyou are going to be Academy guys
, they're going to be guys thathad 4.5 GPAs, and so you're

(21:22):
going to have to describeyourself as a gritty fighter.
You weren't born with a silverspoon in your mouth, et cetera,
et cetera, and I'm like, that'swho I am, like, I don't give up,
I keep fighting, and that'swhat I'm hearing from you.
Man is like, despite the factthat everyone told you, no, this
isn't your thing, you stayed inplace and you kept going, which

(21:45):
I think is important.
And you know what?
Going back to what you saidearlier, the power of that
airplane.
The power of that airplanemotivated you for your future
career and I think we need to doa better job as parents and as
leaders of putting kids in thedriver's seat.
To feel that motivation,similar to what you did like is
get up close, like that, towhere you feel that power and

(22:08):
that power of that aircraftpushed you in that direction, to
have 24 years of honorablemilitary service.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
It's amazing and you know what it was.
A childhood dream come true.
Kp and I had had I mean, justphenomenal experiences.
Now your first combat mission'sa little scary, you know,
because you don't know what'sgoing to happen.
You know, amen.
You know what your strengthsand weaknesses are, but they're

(22:41):
about to be tested to the max.
But they're about to be testedto the max and I've become good
friends with the flight lead ofmy very first combat mission,
refueling the first Wild Weaselpackage into Baghdad.
And it was being led by a guyby the name of John Boy Walton,

(23:05):
and in my book that is the firststory I have.
In my book it's called Drinksfor Puba's Party.
Puba is this famous, famouswild weasel electronic warfare
officer and he designed thetakedown of the integrated air
defenses of Baghdad.
And so here I am flying thismission and if our mission fails
, nobody goes into Baghdadbecause the weasels, the F4G

(23:29):
wild weasel, its whole purposeis to go in, hunt surface-to-air
missile sites and kill them.
And I'll never forget that night, you know, two o'clock in the
morning, with these guys on thewing, and yeah, you're scared,
all right, but you know how tocompartmentalize that because
you have a mission.
You have a mission to perform.

(23:51):
You've got great buds aroundyou and you go and do it.
And I flew KC-135, tail number8019, and the crew chief her
name was Vonnie Peterson.
May she rest in peace.
She died from cancer about 10years ago.
Red-haired, freckled glasses,but one of the best crew chiefs

(24:12):
on the planet, and I can't sayenough good things about crew
chiefs that are out there three,four hours before a mission,
knuckle-busting on airplanes.
And she just beamed when I toldher your airplane's making
history tonight, bonnie.

(24:33):
This is what it's doing andwe're all scared, we're all
frightened and everything likethat.
But you learn tocompartmentalize that and put it
behind you, okay.
Yeah, the fear of your firstcombat mission.
And then hearing the E, e3AWACS calling out MIGS airborne
SAMs are launching all thesedifferent things, you know, and
your blood pressure goes up.
But you have a mission to doand my mission was refueling the

(24:57):
first weasel package intoBaghdad and the number four guy
in the formation had a fuelsystem malfunction and couldn't
get his gas.
So we got to the end point andwe said our job is to fill these
guys up and sure enough, afteryou know, recycling switches and
everything he finally was ableto get his full load of gas.

(25:20):
But it ended up putting thistanker three ship okay, tuna
6364 and 65 was our call signtwo miles from the Iraqi border,
on the opening night of a majorair campaign.
But that was our job and weturned and came home and I
remember saying on theinterphone we're going to go

(25:43):
like crazy to get home.
Okay, because this is going tobe on CNN.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
When you say weasel package, what is that so?

Speaker 2 (25:53):
a great question During the Vietnam War.
I'm going to give you a littlebit of history of the weasels.
During the Vietnam War isreally the first time
surface-to-air missiles showedup, radar-guided surface-to-air
missiles.
They were called SA-2guidelines and they're like
80-foot-long telephone polesflying through the air with like
a 300-pound warhead and theyradar direct them to you and

(26:18):
then of course a fuse goes offand it basically sends little
shrapnel everywhere and it takesout airplanes right.
So they had to come up with away to neutralize or suppress
these new surface-to-airmissiles.
And they came up with a newmission in the Air Force and the

(26:42):
Navy Navy calls it Iron Hand,we call it Wild Weasels and the
reason they took the name WildWeasels is because you know of
the little vermin.
You know they go out and huntrats and mice and all that kind
of stuff, and that's exactlywhat they did.
So they had electronics in theairplane that would show them
okay, there's a SAM site here atone o'clock'd get what's called

(27:04):
a strobe and it'd just be aline and what it is?
It's an electronic pulse fromthe radar saying we're painting
you and we're getting ready tofire, and what happens in your
headset is you know you hearthis.
It sounds like a rattlesnakewhen the radar goes into what
they call high PRF, that meansthey've launched a missile at

(27:25):
you.
They had to find a way toneutralize or suppress those SAM
sites, and so the Wild Weaselmission was born.
They first started with F-100two-seat models.
They went and got B-52electronic warfare officers, and
one of them, by the name of AlDonovanovan, came up with this.

(27:45):
He said okay, let me get thisstraight.
You want me to fly in the backseat behind a crazy fighter
pilot.
You want me to go up, findthese radar sites, let them
shoot at me and then we're goingto kill them.
Is that what you're telling me?
And they went yeah, that's whatyou're telling me.
And Al Donovan looked at theguy that was telling him this
and he goes you got to beshitting me.

Speaker 1 (28:07):
So that's where.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
YGBSM came from for the weasel community and they
still use that.
So the F-100s weren't fastenough.
They went to the F-105s, thenthey went to the F-4s and the
last one was called the F-4GWild Weasel and it had this
system in it that would actuallytalk to the missiles and tell
the missiles.
This is where I want you to go,and the missile is called HARM

(28:31):
High Speed Anti-RadiationMissile, and so you can
basically be outside of the SAMring and shoot this missile in
the radar and take the radar out, which is extremely effective,
and so it's called suppressionof enemy air defenses, sead, or
destruction of enemy airdefenses, deed, and often cases

(28:55):
they'll have one of the weaselsthat hunts the radar and then
they'll have an airplane on thewing that's carrying cluster
bombs or precision-guided bombs,you know, lgbs or JDAMs that
will take the rest of the sideout, and it's called C-DED.
Okay, suppression of Enemy AirDefenses, destruction of Enemy

(29:19):
Air Defenses.
It is the most complex anddangerous mission that the Air
Force and the Navy flies, but itis vitally important to be able
to go in and bust theelectronic radar wall down so
that other airplanes could comein and do that.
They're always the first onesin, they're always the last ones
out, and they do it with F-16snow.

(29:39):
And, of course, the SuperHornets do it for the Navy, and
extremely successful at it now.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
Wow, that's a whole different world, man.
So I want to ask you what wereyour thoughts on now you're
looking back at it what wereyour thoughts on the Iraqi Air
Force?

Speaker 2 (29:57):
You know, the Iraqi Air Force, we knew was probably
not going to be a player,particularly in Desert Storm.
Okay, we knew was probably notgoing to be a player,
particularly in Desert Storm.
Okay, the Navy, in their navalintelligence group in Washington
DC.
They have a group that all theydo is they marry up

(30:21):
intelligence officers withoperators, pilots, f-18, f-14,
all these different things, andit was called SPEAR Strike
Projection, evaluation andAnti-Air Research Division of
Navy Intelligence and they wrotean incredible report on how the

(30:45):
Saddam's integrated air defensesystem would work and it was
spot on and that's how we wereable to take down the entire
network in about three days,because our intel was superior.

(31:16):
Yeah, our intel was superior.
Okay, ea6b electronic warfareofficer or pilot, and you sit
down and you look really closelyat not only how the radar is
painting you but what it'sconnected to, who's telling that
radar to turn on, and go upthat whole chain until you find

(31:41):
what's called a sectoroperations center, until you
find what's called a sectoroperation center.
And that was what the F-117swent after the very opening
strikes of Desert Storm, whereF-117 strikes on these four or
five basically brains of theintegrated air defense system.
And this Spear report was, Imean, just an incredible piece

(32:08):
of work by these people.
I had no idea that it evenexisted and that was my first
trip out to an aircraft carrier,kp and they showed me this.
You know, I'm just a tanker guy.
You know I don't deal with anyof this stuff.
Like I said, you know, I'venever shot a gun, never released
a missile, never dropped a bomb.
You know I've never shot a gun,never released a missile, never
dropped a bomb.
But I'm reading this and I cantell, hey, this is really good

(32:29):
work.
And sure enough, during thesecond Gulf War, speer did
another report on the degradedsystem of Iraq.
And so we knew that during thefirst Gulf War, how to handle it
and how to take it down, andthat's what?

(32:50):
Uh, then brigadier generalLarry Henry Puba was able to
create this integrated airdefense takedown.
And then, believe it or not,larry Henry, in the 2000 time
period, was alive I think he'sstill alive and he came to Shaw
Air Force Base and went througheverything that he had planned

(33:11):
during Desert Storm with theplanners from 9th Air Force on
how to go and re-attack theIraqi integrated air defense
system.
And, as you saw, I think therewas eight flights in the 26 days
of Shakana.
I think there was eight fighterflights and that was just to
reposition them to differentplaces.
They just they.

(33:32):
They were not a threat, andSaddam had a lot of science
projects and a lot of missilesand all this kind of stuff, but
we were able to take it all downand and pretty short order.
So that's the wild Weaselmission.
The Iron Hand mission is whatthey call it, or the Navy calls
it Iron Hand, and it is thefirst thing that you have to do

(33:58):
in any major air campaign is goin and suppress the integrated
air defense.
Now, recently you had the B-2sthat went to Iran and,
fortunately for us, the Israelishad pretty much destroyed the
integrated air defense in Iranand had dealt a severe blow to
it because you had F-35s, f-22s,b-2s.

(34:21):
Go in basically unopposed, dropthe weapons and then come back
out.
They never had a shot fired atthem, from what I'm hearing, and
that's what you want.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
Right, man, that's intense and I can understand
what you're saying about yourfirst mission.
It's like walking into a darkroom, like you don't know what
to expect.
You hear news, rumors, claimsand you're like you're prepared
for a fight and you've got extramagazines, you've got extra

(34:56):
armor, you've got extraeverything for, like bad day,
worst case scenario, and you getthat pucker effect, as as as a
lot of us military folks call it, right, um, and, and just
getting that under your belt isis huge, um, what would you say
would be your most definingmoment from the time that you
were in the air force?
That that shaped your overallleadership philosophy?

Speaker 2 (35:19):
Oh, geez, what a great question.
Kp.
Um, you know what?
Three things.
Number one, kp relationshipsthe relationship that you have
with the people around you.
I had a team of 30 people when Iwas the chief of the for all

(35:41):
air refueling operations in theMiddle East, for the Chakanaw
campaign and then for OperationAnaconda, and the relationship
that I developed with my teamand the other teams that I dealt
with I think is critical as aleader in a leadership role is
critical as a leader in aleadership role, okay, during

(36:05):
the time period of the shock andawe campaign.
One example I'm walking up thestairs into the planning cell
and at the top of the stairs isa F-18 pilot in the Navy who
used to be my next door neighborwhen he was doing an exchange
tour and F-15s in Okinawa.

(36:25):
We hadn't seen each other inwhat two decades.
But their trigger was stand atthe top of the stairs.
It's a small military.
Yeah, it is Okay.
And then there was other peoplethat I began dealing with too.
My last cat shot and trap on anaircraft carrier was on the

(36:47):
John F Kennedy and the chief ofthe Naval Air Liaison Element,
the NAIL, had been the air wingcommander on the John F Kennedy.
Okay, admiral Bill Gortney hewas a captain at the time and so
here's he goes by Shortney.
Shortney was, you know, just acouple of tables over from me,

(37:10):
and you know what thoserelationships were so important
because I knew these people, Iknew how they would act, react,
I knew how they wanted to dothings and the team that I had
around me was the same.
I got to pick the team and I didit with two other guys that
were on my team, okay, mikeTaylor Gramps, and another guy

(37:36):
who had been through the KC-135Weapon School, which wasn't very
old at the time We'd only hadlike four classes through and we
knew each other.
We'd worked with each otherbefore and those relationships
forged a team of experts thelikes that I've not worked with

(37:57):
since, seriously, since theChakanal campaign.
We were given some of thetoughest things to do in the air
campaign and because I hadthese experts around me and knew
them and knew them well, itworked fantastically.
Okay, another leadershipprinciple you and I have both

(38:19):
worked with leaders that willnever forget their names, and
leaders we hope we do forgettheir names.
Okay, and one of the thingsthat I've noticed of the leaders
that I want to continue workingfor is.
They told their subordinatesthis is what I need, but didn't

(38:42):
tell us how to do it Right.
They didn't tell us how to doit Right.
They didn't micromanage youExactly.
Okay, they let you use yourinnovation, your techniques and
your mind to basically workthrough some complicated
problems and get it done.
Here's an example General MikeMosley, lieutenant General Mike

(39:05):
Mosley, was the CFAC, theCombined Forces Air Component
Commander for the Shakanahcampaign and he came up to me on
about night three of the warand he said Sluggo, the gas is
in the wrong place.
It's all down here in SaudiArabia.
People are having to go too far.
I want you tomorrow to movetanker tracks into Iraqi

(39:29):
airspace so that we don't haveto go as far as the gas.
And he told me something else.
He says Sluggo, we can't keepyou tanker guys back here in
Saudi Arabia in safe airspace.
You have to assume some of thesame risk that we're all
assuming going into Baghdad,assume some of the same risk
that we're all assuming goinginto Baghdad.
And I said okay, sir, I'm on it.
And I went to Mike TaylorGramps and a couple of other

(39:51):
guys Bart, okay, bart O'Dell.
His call sign was Bart DaveO'Dell, and I said you're not
going to believe what he justasked we have to put tanker
tracks inside Iraq tomorrownight.
And you know we all went justask we have to put tanker tracks
inside Iraq tomorrow night.
And you know we all went, it'stoo soon, it's this, it's that
you know.
But he didn't tell us how to doit.
He just said Sluggo, I need youto do it.

(40:20):
And so we came up with someextremely innovative ways of
defending the tankers from gunsand missiles shooting at them.
And this is where I made amistake.
I didn't include you guys onthe ground, because I'm an air
guy.
I don't think in the same termsthat you do on the ground, kp.
I left out a critical piecethat was vital to the defense of

(40:43):
tankers, and it was the SpecialForces guys.
So what we came up with, kp,was we had two air refueling
areas that were just insideIraqi airspace, over the deserts
, on the food desert.
The fighters would come up andrefuel in four ships, and what
we did was we split them up.

(41:03):
Two would refuel and the othertwo would run around with all
their sensors and try and findthings on the ground that were
shooting at us, trying to killus, and often they did.
The A-10 LNO I'm going to get tothe special forces here in just
a second.
The A-10 planner was from Boise, okay, his call sign was

(41:24):
Oatmeal.
And I'm reading over thisreport one night of the tankers
being shot at and I'm like, ohmy gosh, what am I going to do
about this?
There's never been a tankershot down ever.
And I'm the guy that's runningtankers and I'm going to have
one get shot down.
You don't want that label forthe rest of your life.
And Oatmeal, from down aboutfour or five desks down goes

(41:49):
Sluggo, what are you reading?
And I said I'm reading all ofthese surface-to-air fire
engagements where they'reengaging the tankers.
He goes what.
He says Sluggo, have all yourtankers, go to frequency white
one.
That's the A-10 threatfrequency.
We'll go and find them andpunch their lights out.

(42:10):
And I said, oatmeal, come hereand let's talk about this.
And what we did is we took A-10sthat were on combat, search and
rescue alert.
We launched them and had themrun underneath the tankers to
find stuff.
Okay, and we made a agreementwith oatmeal If you guys have to

(42:33):
go, get a downed pilot, youwill be our number one air
refueling priority.
We will come down to 10,000feet and we refuel the A-10s,
much lower than the rest of thefighters.
We will come down 10,000 feetand we will refuel you guys so
you guys can go do your mission.
All right, that's the contractI'll make with you.
He said perfect.
So this area underneath four orfive air refueling areas in

(42:57):
Iraqi airspace got nicknamed thepig pen because of the warthogs
running around underneath itpunching people, you know,
punching these trucks with gunsand missiles, punching their
lights out.
And he said Sluggo, you need toinclude the ground forces in
this.
I said what do you mean,oatmeal?
He says the special forces guysare all running around
underneath us.

(43:18):
Have them go look for thisstuff too.
Oh, yeah, because I wasn'tthinking jointly, kp, and that's
a mistake that I made.
I wasn't using all of the toolsthat were available to me.
Because if I told you, as aground army guy, I want you to
add another target to yourmission set, I want you to go

(43:39):
find these trucks with guns onthem and these mobile missiles
and everything like that, whatwould be your response to that
KP?
I'd look for Overwatch.
Yeah, I'd bring it.
You'd bring it, wouldn't you?
Oh, I got more things to kill,I got more things to shoot at.
And that's exactly what theSpecial Forces guys did.
And, sure enough, one guy sent apicture back.

(44:00):
One of these Special Forcesguys you know, a scraggly beard,
you know, look like hell, allright had a mobile surface air
missile truck go by them intheir hide site.
And he came out of the hidesite and took a Javelin missile
off of his back and startedrunning toward it and all of his

(44:22):
buddies are like going what areyou doing?
What are you doing?
Don't do that.
You know he goes, he's over hisshoulder.
He goes take a picture with themissile heads, take a picture
with the missile heads.
And he goes ka-funk.
And that missile goes, you know,thunk out of the thing.
Does its little thing go uplike this?
And it came down on that mobilelauncher and, sure enough, kp.

(44:42):
He turned around just beforethe missile hit and he's going
like this.
And that guy snapped a pictureand you see this missile system
behind him blowing up like thiswith this soft soldier.
You know, all unwashed andunclean, unshaven, everything
going like this.
And I sent that picturethroughout the entire command

(45:21):
center to say they've got ourback.
They've got our back.
The Air Force exists to takecare of you guys, on care of us,
and we appreciated it.
Because I didn't think of that,I didn't think of that.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
You got to think of those resources and those assets
, man, like we used to use uh,the uh, the uh helicopters you
know, the Blackhawks, the Kiowasto do a lot of our, our
overwatch, or to do some of ourroute clearances and things like
that, and we use the engineersto also do that as well Um, just

(45:51):
your sheer presence is a is ahuge deterrent, uh, for any
potential attacks.
So the uh, I can say that theappreciation goes both ways, no
doubt because we definitely needthe fuel, the bullets, the
beans, all that stuff to do ourjob and and that that that's
amazing that you had that, hadthat, had that experience and

(46:12):
that revelation as a leader tokind of look forward and find
those assets and utilize thoseassets.
And those guys are grateful foryou doing what you were doing
back then.
And you're kind of talkingabout some of the intense combat
missions that you've done.
Out of all the missions thatyou've flown refueling missions
that you've flown, what are someof the most intense combat

(46:36):
zones that kind of stick out inyour mind?
What was the most challengingmission that you think you ever
flew?

Speaker 2 (46:42):
The first night of Desert Storm was one mission
that you think you ever flew.
The first night of Desert Stormwas one.
And then about four days later,we had another really intense
one.
Okay, and this goes back to thetanker community in the Air
Force has an impeccablerelationship with the people

(47:04):
around us and also a uh, a greatcommunity that is looked up to
and, um, god, what's the wordI'm looking for?
You know, a respect, okay, andum, I'm going to give you two
stories from two different aircampaigns to illustrate this.

(47:27):
Okay, and you're going to lovethese.
Okay, and your listeners aregoing to love this.
My crew on the fourth day ofDesert Storm was coming in to
fly and we had a mission alreadythat we knew We'd looked it up
the day before and as we walkedin, we're coming up the stairs.
It up the day before and as wewalked in, we're coming up the

(47:48):
stairs and Lieutenant ColonelDave Wright.
D Wright, who was the deputychief of the planning cell, is
at the top of the stairs andhe's pointing down at me like
this he's going are you comingin to fly Sluggo?
You and your crew, and I go.
Yeah, we sure are D Wright.
What's up.
He goes your mission iscanceled, go to mission planning
and wait for me there.
And I'm like going, d-right,what's going on?

(48:09):
He goes just go to missionplanning, wait for me there.
We made a promise to somebodyand we're trying to fulfill it.
And I went.
He just says go wait for me inmission planning.
I get there.
There's already two crewssitting there waiting.
We're the third crew.
Another crew that had justwalked in behind us becomes the

(48:31):
fourth crew and D-Wright tellsus you need to take off in 35
minutes and meet 32 F-16s thatdid not get pre-strike refueled.
They literally went to theirtarget without getting gas on
the front end and if you guysdon't make it to them, we're

(48:55):
going to have the largest combatsearch and rescue in the
history of the Air Force, withairplanes literally dropping all
over southern Iraq.
And so we did a quick brief.
I was not leading this, I wasnumber three.
Dan Favorite from Beale was thelead.
And here's another leadershipprinciple okay, establish

(49:17):
standard operating proceduresand KP.
You know exactly what I'mtalking about here and how
important those are.
Okay, establish standardoperating procedures.
And so our formation brief wasfrom a standard operating
procedure like checklist thateverybody had to be tested on

(49:39):
and sign off on before you couldbe in a formation.
And once you had gone throughall of the standard operating
procedures, signed off all thatand being tested on it both on
paper and orally, being testedon it both on paper and orally,
then you are assigned to be acell lead.

(50:00):
And so Dan Favorite says okay,jeta, formation procedures,
everybody got it.
Yes, we all got it.
We all understood what thatmeant.
We all understood what ourresponsibilities were and we all
understood what Dan was tryingto tell us.
That standard operatingprocedure is how we're going to
operate today.
The other thing D Wright told usis you will probably have to go
into Iraqi airspace to pickthese guys up, and at that time

(50:24):
very few tankers had gone insideof Iraq and we were going to do
it at 21,000 to 23,000 feet.
So we're going to be hanging itout big time.
And he said go as far as youdare go.
Well, obviously there's a lotof questions about that.
What do you mean by that?
We don't know.
And he didn't know because wedidn't.
He didn't know where we'regoing to pick the F-16s up.

(50:46):
So we take off, and normally ittakes 45 minutes to do a walk
around of a KC-135.
But another stand-in operatingprocedure that we had there KP
was we had crews that couldn'tfly because of illness or
whatever cock on the airplanes.
In other words, all you had todo was get in the airplane,
start the engines, taxi and takeoff and fortunately that cut

(51:10):
about 15 minutes off this timeperiod.
We take off, go to Lime Pre, wego straight up toward Baghdad,
straight up toward Baghdad, kp,and we get on the radio and we
check in with the F-16s and hegoes I will call your turn,
we're about 40 miles in Iraqiairspace.

(51:30):
And he says in Iraqi airspace.
And he says turn south now.
And so four tankers turned andit was raining F-16s.
There were four, eight ships ofF-16s.
The guy that came to my boomone of the guys that came to my
boom, kp, had 800 pounds.
He had six minutes of flyingtime left and he was still not

(51:53):
connected to the boom.
That's nothing.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
You're running out of fuel at that point.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yeah, and you're 40 miles in Iraq, so they're all
calling in.
You know I've got 1200, I'vegot 900, I've got 1500, you know
they're all extremely low ongas.
So we turned South and I and II had my camera with me and my
copilot had his video camera.
I've got this all on film.
And it's raining, these F-16sand my boom operator, rick Brack

(52:18):
, told Pug 6, all the F-16s werenamed after dogs, come straight
to the boom, just come straightto the boom, okay.
And he reached out, plugged him, okay, and we gave everybody a
thousand pounds of comfort gas.
Comfort gas because now theyaren't sucking up seat cushion,
they've got some time.
And then we recycled them allback through and they went up to

(52:41):
a higher altitude when they'reall done and left for their base
and says we cannot thank youguys enough for what you did.
You are really hanging it out.
And then the AWACS called usagain and says turn 270 now,
turn west.
Now we're like is somebodyshooting at us?
What's happening?
What was going on was an F-14had been shot down the night

(53:01):
before the Rio had been captured.
The pilot was still evading andsure enough, they found him and
the A-10s were on him and thehelicopter Moccasin was just
getting ready to pick him up.
But the A-10s needed more gas.
All right, the A-10s hold about9,000 to 10,000 pounds and
these guys took 8,000 pounds.
That's a lot of gas for a hog,all right.

(53:24):
But they were able to refuelthe hogs and get them home and
Boots Jones, the F-14 pilot, wasrescued and was flying two days
later.
Well, in 2004, 2005, captainBrooks Boatwright, when I was at

(53:45):
the Joint Forces Staff College,says hey, sluggo, you need to
go over and talk to that guyright there.
And I go.
Why is that?
He goes.
Your lives are intertwined.
And I've heard you tell thestory.
Go talk to him, go tell him whoyou are.
And I walk up and it's CaptainBoots Jones and I shake his hand
and I said God, it makes a lumpin my throat.
Boots, I was one of those threetankers above you giving gas to

(54:10):
the Wild Weasels and the A-10sduring your recovery.
You know what he said to meDrinks are on me, sluggo, drinks
are on thee.
You know how many times I'veheard that.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:21):
Drinks are on me, Sluggo.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
When was that F-14 shot down?
Was that during the Gulf WarDesert Storm?

Speaker 2 (54:26):
yeah, the first Gulf War.
They were on a combat airpatrol mission and got hit by an
SA-2.
And it's a famous story the twohog drivers get the Silver Star
.
Pj Johnson was the lead andthere's a classic, classic
picture I'll see if I can findit, kp, and I'll send it to you

(54:51):
when the pararescueman in thehelicopter, the Pavelo, is out
and he's running up to BootsJones and Boots Jones is running
up to him and the pararescueguy hits his wrist and so he
drops the pistol out of hiswrist, out of his hand, and he
literally grabs him, throws himin the helicopter.

(55:12):
Then he gets in the helicopterand they leave.
I mean, they're only on theground, like you know, 15, 20
seconds, but one of the otherPJs had his camera with him and
took a picture of it and itshows boots running to this PJ
and they finally get on themoccasin, the Pueblo, and then
leave and it saves the day.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
It's amazing that in 1991, right 1991, you guys are
had the mind to take picturesand videos, because when I was
in Iraq in 04, you know, socialmedia wasn't wasn't existent
back then.
So taking pictures was a littlemore cumbersome because we
didn't have digital cameras, wehad regular cameras that had

(55:58):
film.
So you took a picture.
You didn't know what was theresult until later on you
developed it.
You guys had the state of mindto actually capture those
moments like that, yeah, hey,let me tell you the second story
.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
Okay, and it has to do with training and leadership.
All right, and it has to dowith training and leadership,
all right, and it wasn't acombat mission, but it was
probably one of the bestlearning events in my career.
It's right after OperationAnaconda.
John F Kennedy is now gettingready to go up into the Northern

(56:33):
Arabian Gulf and to flySouthern Watch missions.
Their strike lead was a guythat had helped us create our
weapons school, and the C2carrier onboard delivery
airplane broke, and so I endedup five days on the aircraft
carrier with my camera.

(56:54):
I was taking 60 rolls of film aday, kp, of airplanes being
loaded.
You know guys slinging bombs.
I mean it was an incrediblewatch.
And they had to underwayreplenish where a store ship.
Kp comes up next to them, kpcomes up next to them and for
about six hours they'reconnected by fuel hoses

(57:17):
replenishing the fuel that theyput in the fighters.
Lettuce, hot dogs, bombseverything is coming across from
the USS Seattle and I'mstanding there in the Ox Conning
Tower and it's these wings thatare off the side of the bridge.

(57:42):
Whenever you go on a Navy ship,they'll have these wings off
the side of the bridge that theydo this with.
And I'm standing there and thecaptain of the ship his name is
Harv Henderson and they calldown to some place because the
next Lieutenant, who's supposedto come up and basically drive
the ship while it's refueling,they don't know where he's at.
They're trying to figure outwhere he's at and they find out
he's not coming.
And this is a mark of greatleadership.

(58:02):
Harv Henderson says to me hop inthere, sluggo, con the carrier.
And I turned around and Ilooked at him with a straight
face and I said, with all duerespects, harv, are you out of
your mind?
I'm going to drive the aircraftcarrier while another ship is
180 feet off the right side.
He goes hop in there, sluggo.
This will be good training andeducation for you.

(58:24):
And so my first response, kp,was I can't do this.
I'm an Air Force guy.
I've never conned a ship.
I'm an Air Force guy, I'venever conned a ship.
You know, I'm driving 122,000tons, 102,000 tons of aircraft
carrier 180 feet from anotherboat, really, really.

(58:49):
But Harv said to me hop inthere, sluggo.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
You can do this.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
He says it's just like flying formation with
another airplane.
What you do is you make onepercent increase on the screws,
the inboard uh carrier screwspropellers every 20 minutes and
you keep that blue line on theship right off your shoulder.
You make one degree headingchanges.
Okay, Just like flyingformation with an airplane.
Okay, that's all you got to do,all right?

(59:17):
I mean, think about that KP 1%thrust, one degree heading
changes.
We all think we have to makethese five degree cuts and got
to have all the power up andeverything like that.
But the greatest learningevents in our lives often come
with 1% increase on the thrust,one degree heading changes,
doesn't it?

Speaker 1 (59:38):
I love that connection.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
I hopped in there and I'm like going, this is crazy
that I'm doing this, but I'mgoing to do it.
And I settled down and he sayshey, sluggo, you're doing a
great job, man, this is good.
Okay, I'm watching the linescome across, the fuel lines come
across, 26,000 heads of lettuce, 16,000 hot dogs, 18,000

(01:00:00):
hamburger patties, the buns forthem all and 300 bombs.
I'm watching this all comeacross, all right, and they're
basically replenishing, or theycall it underway replenishing,
or unwrapping.
While this is all going on,well, harv Henderson calls over
to the captain of the USSSeattle and he goes hey, giggs,

(01:00:20):
are you sitting down?
That is not what you want tohear when you're doing this,
okay, and of course, giggs callsback.
He goes why should I be?
And Harv, in a perfect voice,goes Air Force is conning the
ship.
And all seven heads in GiggsOXCONN turn around and go, like

(01:00:45):
this Air Force is driving thecarrier.
And of course, giggs asks me.
He goes hey, who are you?
And I says well, I'm the chiefof the air fueling control team.
Right now I'm a KC-135 pilot.
And there's this dead silenceand Giggs goes we love tanker
guys, you know over the radio.

(01:01:07):
Well, in 2023, I attended theTailhook Convention.
Guess who I met, jim Gigliotti.
Giggs, the captain of that shipand one of my good friends, an
AVF-18 guy, says you need to gotalk to Giggs.
You need to go talk to that guyright there.
I said why.
He says you have him in yourbook.

(01:01:27):
I go what do you mean?
He's in my book.
He says yeah, the guy that youcalled Iggy in the book is
actually Giggs, and that's himright there.
Go talk to him.
So I walked up to him.
I says you have no idea who Iam, but our lives were
intertwined on a day in April of2003.
You were the captain of the USSSeattle, weren't you?

(01:01:47):
He goes yeah, I sure was.
I said I'm that KC-135 guy thatwas conning the JFK when you
guys were underway replenishing,and so now he and I are good
friends too.
Giggs great guy.
He works for Lockheed in theF-35 program.
Small world, the small militaryman.
But here's the thing.
Okay, this is a greatleadership lesson.
All right, let your people grow.

(01:02:10):
Dare to let them grow.
I'm an Air Force guy.
I'm not even in Harv's chain ofcommand, but he knows you're an
Air Force guy.
You need to understand whatgoes on here.
You need to just hop in thereand do it, and I did, and it was
awesome.
It's one of the great events ofmy career is sitting next to

(01:02:33):
the USS Seattle.
By the way, I emailed you thepicture of that, so you've got
pictures of this.
Okay, nice, all right, and Isent us a few more also.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
All right, I'm going to write this time down and make
sure I put them in the videoportion of this.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
Yeah, yeah, please do .
Okay, you know an hour and fiveminutes, because, again, it's
all about logistics and thecarrier had to unwrap every
three days.
Well, go forward now to Shakana.
There's five carriers in theGulf, okay, and I know, every
three days those guys are goingto come offline for about eight

(01:03:10):
hours and underway replenish.
Only one carrier continuedflight ops while they were
replenishing and he showed methe video of this.
They're shooting airplaneswhile they're up next to the
underway, the store ship gettinggas, getting bombs and
everything, and they're stilldoing flight ops.

(01:03:31):
It's crazy, but Harv said thiswill be good experience.
Sluggo, and of course, you fearthat you go oh man, you know,
out of my comfort zone.
I'm not a Navy guy, I'll neverdo this again.
And coordinate all that andwork with two teams the team

(01:03:57):
that's in the bridge of the JohnF Kennedy and the team that's
in the bridge of the USS Seattle.
While I'm driving a ship, onedegree heading changes, 1%
increase on the thrust.

Speaker 1 (01:04:07):
And I like how you connected that with life.
Yeah, everyone thinks you haveto take these big steps.
I've been doing this podcastfor three years and it's been a
slow growth for me, justlearning how to speak, learning
how to and it's been like thatmy whole life, where you slowly
start to work towards certainthings in certain directions,

(01:04:29):
and I I like how you connectedthat experience to life in
general and just your overallshout out to everyone that you
work to.
I mean, sometimes theseconversations, people are the
main character, but you'vementioned so many names during
this conversation and givenpeople credit for doing great
things and remember what I saidabout relationships.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
Yeah, it's about relationships.
Yeah, it is, you know, and, andsometimes that relationship is
built during events where you'rea little scared out of your
mind.
Okay, all right, harv,seriously, you want me to drive
the ship while you've gotanother one 180, 180 feet away
from you and uh, and and do this, and yeah, okay, oh, here's the

(01:05:14):
other thing about this, too.
Here's the other crazy thingabout this they stay in
formation at 180 feet apart,using pvc pipe.
There's a little christmas treeright outside the window, kp,
and it's made of pvc pipe and ithas uh, so you have this long
stick going out this way andthen you have little branches

(01:05:35):
coming off this way.
Okay, yeah, and the 180-footvisual reference that it's got,
you know, just like a sight on agun.
It's got one up here and thenit's got one down here, and you
line those up and you're exactly180 feet away, all right, and
it's got like 170, you know 170,160, 150, you know all the

(01:05:55):
thing, and then it goes up, Ithink, like 210 out the other
side.
All right, but literally, thinkabout that, how easy that is
and how crazy that is that thesetwo ships are maintaining
formation using a PVC pipeChristmas tree right outside the
window.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
Using a PVC pipe Christmas tree right outside the
window, tons and tons of steelmoving through the water,
literally being led by PVC pipe,exactly exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
That's insane man.

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
Overall, what would you say like how critical is
aerial refueling to modernwarfare and what do you think
civilians uh, oftentimesmisunderstand about it
altogether great question so ourmotto is nobody kicks ass
without tanker gas, nobody,whenever.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
And and military air operations kp, sit on a
three-legged stool.
You have joint integrated fires, and by fires I mean, like you
guys knocking in doors, you haveyour overwatch of a10s and
you've got somebody controllingthem, okay.
Joint integrated fires, whereyou got t-lamps coming in, bombs

(01:07:09):
coming in, all these differentassets dropping weapons, uh.
You also have non-kinetic fires, electronic spectrum, all those
kinds of things too.
That's the first one.
Joint integrated fires,persistent intelligence,
surveillance and reconnaissance.
That can be by drones, be bythe AC-130 gunship with its

(01:07:31):
sensors.
B-52s have a targeting pod thathave a sensor on them, and I
interviewed a guy on my Lessonsfrom the Cockpit podcast who's a
B-52 guy and they were doingdrug interdiction with a B-52
using the sniper pod andbasically were a forward air
controller airborne for theCoast Guard on the ground with a

(01:07:54):
B-52.
And then the last one, kp, iscontinuous humanitarian
operations.
So joint integrated fires,persistent intelligence,
surveillance, reconnaissance andcontinuous humanitarian
operations.
That's kind of the three-leggedstool that air operations
stands on.
You can't do any of thatwithout tankers.

(01:08:14):
Air operation stands on.
You can't do any of thatwithout tankers.
An F-15 consumes 8,000 poundsof fuel an hour at tactical
speeds, 2,000 pounds a minute inafterburner.
That's the rule of thumb formost fighters, except for the
F-16, because it's a singleengine airplane, it's about
3,200 pounds an hour.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
All right, burns less .

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
Yeah, the B-52 is burning 22,000 pounds an hour
through its eight engines.
So for those joint integratedfires to keep going and you know
it's all about range payloadand endurance Okay, that's why
you have air refueling rangepayload and endurance you have
to keep dumping gas into thosethings.

(01:08:56):
The B2s that recently struckIran probably had six refuelings
and they were taking about80,000 pounds every time they
hooked seven airplanes.
That's over a million pounds ofgas KP.
Wow, Just to do that onemission.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
All right, six refuelings, leaving from where
and going to where.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
Going from Whiteman Air Force Base in beautiful Knob
Noster, missouri.
Okay, there's a.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
Walmart there you said Missouri, say no more.
I went to basic training inLeonard Wood.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
Okay, so Whiteman's, right outside Kansas City.
Okay, okay, just east of KansasCity.
So Kansas City to their targetsat Fordow in Iran and back One
hop, you know.
36 to 37-hour flight, all right, the F-35s, f-22s were
stationed locally at basesthroughout the Southeast Asia,

(01:09:48):
you know, but they still neededgas.
Now, persistent ISRintelligence, surveillance,
reconnaissance.
During the ballistic missilechaos going into Israel, more
than likely, the Air Force hadwhat's called the RC-135 Cobra
Ball aircraft.

(01:10:09):
It is a 135 airframe that ismissionized for space and
missile intelligence collectionand whenever you have ballistic
missiles flying around, thisairplane's flying somewhere
watching it all and it's reallygood KP at what it does.
Particularly, where did themissile come from, what's its

(01:10:34):
time of flight and where it'sgoing, where is it going to drop
.
And that works into the groundsystem of Iron Dome, the
Patriots and everything asanother piece of the puzzle that
tells the operators and theleadership where the ballistic
missiles are coming from, what'stheir flight route, where

(01:10:57):
they're going to land, andsaying, okay, this one is a
target, this one's going to landin the middle of the desert, we
don't need to fire on it.
So you're able to makedecisions because you can see
intentions.
And that's the thing aboutintelligence is what are the
enemy's intentions?
Well, if these ballisticmissiles are coming from this

(01:11:18):
spot, we know where they'recoming from and of course we'll
probably pass that to our allies, particularly Israel, and have
them go hunt that thing down.
Or we'll go hunt it down like aScud missile.
Or for national security, theRC-135 rivet joint flies what
they call burning wind missionswhere they're off the coast of

(01:11:41):
some country collectingelectronic signals and
communications intelligence.
That's what we call persistentintelligence, surveillance,
reconnaissance.
Now for humanitarian.
The best example I can think ofwas remember the big tsunamis
in Southeast Asia back a coupleof years ago.

(01:12:02):
They had the tremendousearthquake, and the Philippines
too.
Right, yeah, oh yeah, thePhilippines, thailand, malaysia
just got wiped out.
Okay, yeah, well, we'reprobably the only Air Force that
can respond to that.
And they started putting C-17s,c-5s on alert to take all kinds
of humanitarian supplies overto some lily pad that we could

(01:12:28):
drop that all off at and startsending it out, either by C-130s
or helicopters or whatever.
And start sending it out eitherby C-130s or helicopters or
whatever.
And another great example isduring the war in Afghanistan.
We had the first jointintegrated fires and persistent
ISR going, but we also hadcontinuous humanitarian

(01:12:48):
operations because we weredropping the food packets,
remember yeah, we were droppingall the MREs.
You know there was like 18,000of these meals ready to eat that
we were dropping on drop zonesover Afghanistan so that people
weren't starving through thewinter.
And it took tankers to do that,refueling over the Black Sea,

(01:13:15):
going and coming out of Ramstein.
And here's the really innovativepart of that KP is the Air
Mobility Warfare Center createda cardboard box that was strong
enough that you could fill itwith, you know, 3,000 or 4,000
of these meals ready to eat,thousand of these meals ready to

(01:13:39):
eat, and once it went out theback of the C-17, it would come
apart in the windstream at 130,140 miles an hour and so
literally the container wouldhold all of them.
But once it got in theairstream behind the C-17, it
would come apart and then theMREs would just fall to the
ground and, excuse me, every oneof these MREs had been.

(01:14:00):
The menu had been put togetherwith a Muslim chaplain to make
sure that we had the rightthings in it.
Okay, we don't.
We're trying to save lives,we're not trying to offend
people, all right, no-transcript.

(01:14:35):
These areas integrate jointintegrated fires, persistent isr
commit, continuous humanitarianoperations.
Tankers are involved, always,always, and that's why they say
nobody kicks ass without tankergas, nobody yeah, it's often
overlooked, right, it's oftenoverlooked and not thought about

(01:14:55):
.

Speaker 1 (01:14:56):
But six, six refuels between missouri and iran, and
back and back.
So, man, that's, that's insane,that's something that's often
overlooked about 80 000 poundseach time.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
Wow, that was our.
That was our.
That was our typical.
What we call rule of thumb forrefueling bombers was 80K.

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
That's a lot, thank God for people like you that
have such a passion and love todo that kind of thing, man,
because it sounds like youstayed 24 years.
I mean you have to enjoy whatyou're doing to stay that long.
To stay that long and over youryears in the Air Force, what

(01:15:38):
were the key differences thatyou saw when you transitioned
out?
The differences in howleadership is developed in the
Air Force compared to likecivilian organizations.

Speaker 2 (01:15:46):
So what I saw transitioning out was again,
talk about relationships.
You know the relationships thatyou had with the military, a
brotherhood and a sisterhood,which was fantastic.
It wasn't quite that way in myexperience with the company that

(01:16:09):
I worked with.
Okay, it was more about youknow, you didn't reach your
bottom line goal, or you knowthis financial goal or whatever.
All right, it was um.

Speaker 1 (01:16:22):
I'll be honest with you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
Yeah, I'll be honest with you, it was quite
discouraging at times.
Yeah, and you had people that,um, you didn't want to work with
and leadership positions, justlike you do in the military, you
know.
And I had one guy come up to mewe were looking at a potential

(01:16:44):
big fighter contract and I wasextremely frustrated.
All right, they assigned us astrategist.
They assigned us a strategist,and during one of the meetings

(01:17:05):
this individual our chiefstrategist to get us in a
completely different marketasked the question well, what's
a targeting pod?
And I went, oh, we're literallystarting from scratch here, all
right, and the next day, youknow, she's kind of crying in
the back of the room, you know,about how over her head all this
stuff is and everything likethat.
You know, and I'm realizingthey're not picking the right
team.
They just said, oh well, thisperson doesn't have anything on

(01:17:32):
their plate.
And they didn't understand.
In an airplane, you have to dothree things aviate, navigate
and communicate.
And for a fighter cockpit, in acramped space, you can't have
things that are heavy, bigthings like that.
And they didn't understand thatI did because I'd been in all
these things and I had a senior,one of the senior guys come up

(01:17:58):
to me and he's telling me youknow, I was an army helicopter
pilot.
I'm the one who knows how thisis going to go.
I know how this all goes down.
Okay, and I turned around andlooked at this guy and I said,
when you have 5,000 hours injets I'm not talking just
tankers, I'm talking awacs, I'mtalking c-130s, helicopters,

(01:18:18):
cats and traps on aircraftcarriers only then will you have
credibility in my world.
And what you guys are trying todo here is just stupid.
Well, that didn't endear me tosome of the senior leaders, but
you have to be honest, all butyou have to be honest.
All right, you have to behonest.
You're going to spend, you know, tens of millions of dollars to

(01:18:42):
go after this one group ofairplanes and you have to
understand how they operate.
And not only in a fighter doyou have aviate, navigate,
communicate, but you haveweapons and sensors too.
And some of these people didn'thave the first clue about what
that cockpit would look like.
So a former F-4 WIZO that wasworking on my team and I sat

(01:19:07):
down and we created a notionalfighter cockpit that you could
put in a trainer or a fighter,didn't matter.
That had all the things that itneeded, all the different
Ethernet cables, the MFDs,everything that we made and they
were commercial, off the shelf,so they were really not that
expensive.
And that same senior dudelooked at me and goes this is

(01:19:30):
really dumb, this isn't going towork, this isn't going to work.
And a year later he had that ona slide where he said I'm the
one who built this and so theethics that you and I have with
our bros is I got your back, yougot mine, and you know this is
kind of a negative story.
The positive story is again thethings that I learned, and I

(01:19:50):
mentioned it already.
I was used to looking at thedisplays and all that stuff.
I had no idea what was in thatbox and that was a great
learning experience for me.
Working with some of thesesystems engineers was also
another great learningopportunity for me and seeing,
okay, from an engineer'sperspective, this is what this
should look like, and having ateam that about 12 people and

(01:20:17):
being able to be in a world thatI didn't understand but had one
particular guy that helped meunderstand.
It again gets back torelationships and he had his
master's degree in systemsengineering and he took me aside
and says here's the book youneed to read, here's the stuff
that you need to learn, you knowall those kinds of things.
And so there was a great dealof mentorship going on there.

(01:20:39):
That, um, that helped me getthrough that.
And when I went to anotherbusiness unit, I didn't have
that mentoring.
They just said, oh, you'lllearn this on on the fly.
And I'm like, ah, I hate itwhen you do that.
And then finally they realizedthat they were losing some
contracts that they should bewinning because it was our
equipment.

(01:20:59):
And we had a company calledDardus Communication come in and
teach us.
And that was a turning pointbecause we had some experts that
came in and said engineers,talk like engineers, you know,
you know this voltage and andthis frequency range and
everything.
And they came in and basicallytold us this is why you're

(01:21:22):
losing contracts, because you'respeaking like engineers.
You need to speak to people atthe eighth grade level and tell
them this is how this is goingto improve your life and that's
what you know every salesman istaught.
You know, this product is goingto improve your life this way
Right Over this period of time.

(01:21:44):
And oh, by the way, we have aservices division that will help
you maintain this cockpit to acertain level, the 160th Special
Operations Aviation Regiment.
They have to take off.
So we had to have 100% on-timetakeoff in the 160th SOAR.

(01:22:06):
Well, to do that meant we hadto have people on the ground
there at Fort Campbell, kentucky.
We had to have the partsavailable that they could go in.
And if a multifunction displaywent bad, you know they can take
the Canon plugs out of it.
Put, you know, put a new one in.
You know, put the Canon plugsto it, screw it in and off they
go.
And those decisions to do thatsometimes are expensive.

(01:22:29):
But we had an incrediblerelationship and built a rapport
with the 160 S SOAR that theysaid we'll never go with anybody
else.
And that's the kind of thingthat I saw when I transitioned
from the military into business.
They're more about the bottomline.
There's incredible trainingopportunities to learn if you

(01:22:51):
will accept them and take themand take them on.
To learn if you will acceptthem and take them and take them
on.
And, um, you know, I I wasn'tlooked at as as an expert
because I wasn't an engineer,and much to their detriment.

Speaker 1 (01:23:05):
Yeah, I had similar experiences too.
When I got out and and it wasreally frustrating, where it was
more dog eat, dog backstabbing,I oh yeah, I think out of um,
out of a big department.
There was one other air forceguy there and him and I kind of
linked up and he sort of watchedout for me, um, because I, I

(01:23:28):
didn't know, like you said, itwas like here, get on the golf
cart, we'll take you to yourdepartment and you can just
learn, learn on the fly, andit's like, well, like do I have
a smart book?
Like do I have something thatshows me the foundations, the
basics, the verbiage, theacronyms?
Like, do I have anything?
No, I don't have anything.

(01:23:48):
So it's like this isn't, thisisn't like organizationally
planned very well, and it's just.
I understand what you're sayingand I think that's why a lot of
military veterans, when theyget out, they reach that
frustration of just not havingany mentorship or any real
direction and it's kind of likewell, you just learn, you either
tread water or you'll drown.

(01:24:08):
Yeah, that mentality, yeahexactly KP.

Speaker 2 (01:24:12):
You're thrown in the deep end of the pool and you
either sink or swim, okay, right.
And when I went to uh servicesand sales and they said, oh,
you'll pick it up.
Literally, that's what theytold me You'll pick it up.
I'm like I've never been in aposition like this before.
I don't even know who mycustomers are, you know.
Oh, well, you have theNortheast United States.
Okay, well, who's up there?
Well, you got Boeing.

(01:24:33):
You know, in Philadelphia, thehelicopter division.
You got this, you know.
And there was no introductionto these people, you know.
And, um, I was very frustratedbecause I felt I was in a
dysfunctional business unit.
Yeah, and I, finally, I,finally, you know, I uh, during

(01:25:07):
sequestration, a lot of myprograms dried up, but I had an
extreme family situation happenand I could not mentally recover
from that afterward.
And when I got laid off, Ibasically got fired because I
couldn't function and my wifewas taking pictures off the wall
when I walked in the door at 830, she we're moving to utah,
you know, we're out of here, youknow.
And uh, and you know what Iremember about that.
I actually got a good night'ssleep because I wasn't so wound

(01:25:30):
up that's awesome right, the dogeat dog world, and, and, and I
was working with people that hadegos as large as life.
Engineers that didn'tunderstand how the military
works wouldn't listen to me whenI told them how it works, and
on a few occasions they did, andI developed great relationships

(01:25:52):
with those guys.
But I missed the camaraderie ofbeing in a in a squadron as you
would probably in a in a groundunit yeah and and and the
difference was was like when youwent to the air force you grew
within the air force.

Speaker 1 (01:26:09):
When you get out in civilian world you're kind of
thrown into a position and youdon't have that growth.
There's not even a bridge.
There's no bridge, even, it'sjust figure it out or you're out
, yeah, we'll just replace you.
And I think there'd be lessturnover with military veterans
if there was some sort of bridgeor some sort of like growth or
bring up.

(01:26:29):
But it's not.
It's like and I think a lot oftimes people misunderstand what
the military is aboutFundamentally, I would expect in
America everybody wouldunderstand rank, everyone would
understand the functions of theAir Force, army, marines, coast
Guard and Navy.
But they don't.

(01:26:49):
And I think with me, when Ifirst got out, they thought
because I was an officer, I wasenlisted for four years National
Guard, then I went active dutyas an officer for four years, I
think with me.
I think they thought I was adrill sergeant and they thought
that I like they had watched toomany movies and they thought,
well, just get in their ass andlike, make them do this and make

(01:27:09):
them do that.
And it's like, well, that's notleadership, that's not
leadership, that's notleadership, and I don't have
trainees.
I'm not dealing with 18 year oldkids.
Anyhow, these are grown adultsthat I'm managing now.
So it doesn't work like that.
It doesn't work like full metaljacket.
You know, like, and it's.
It's interesting to hear thatyou had a similar uh experience

(01:27:31):
as.
But looking at the 10,000 footview from where you're at now,
how has your view of yourmilitary service overall changed
now that you're looking at itfrom the outside?

Speaker 2 (01:27:44):
Now that I'm looking at it from the outside, some of
the things that I notice is andyou know what, I hear a lot of
people talk about this you knowthe Gen Z phenomenon, you know
where, when you and I were in,it was all about the mission OK,
and you just got the missiondone and it didn't matter how

(01:28:05):
painful, it was, right.
And now you have to use areally different leadership
style.
Yeah, with a lot of the I'mjust going to call them young
kids, you know, because of myage, but those that are in the
military now.
And I've got a very dear friendthat's in the 2nd Special

(01:28:26):
Forces at Fort Bragg, who waslike you, you know, was in a
guard unit, enlisted, you know,went to school and everything,
and is now, you know, leadingpeople at Bragg and he says, you
know, you have to have a verydifferent touch to them because

(01:28:47):
you can't just come down, youknow, on them and drop the load
of bricks on them, because theyliterally can't stand it.
They don't know how to adjustto.
Uh, right, yeah, being put inreally pressure situations, all
right, and you and I have beenin some real pressure situations

(01:29:07):
where we had to think fast,that was the other thing this
guy told me too is a lot ofthese young people in the
military now don't likeauthority figures.
They kind of resent some of theauthority figures and the way
they do things.
They kind of resent some of theauthority figures and the way

(01:29:28):
they do things and you know,I've been told so many times
that it's really a differentmilitary now because you know
you have to handle them verydifferently than when you and I
were in the military, because ofthe way they've been brought up

(01:29:51):
, the way they've been educatedand they can't handle really
complex problems was anotherthing this guy told me and other
people have told me this toowhere you have to bring together
, like I said, a truly jointforce and have the
communications and organizationskills to be able to make that
all run, have the communicationsand organization skills to be
able to make that all run.
That's another thing thatthey've I've been told by folks

(01:30:12):
and and that I have observedwhen I've gone to certain places
too, is some of them aren'treal deep thinkers.
Yeah, okay and um.
But you know I ran across thattoo in in the in too, when I was
in the commercial world also.
But again, it's a differentgeneration that has grown up
differently in a differentculture and as a leadership

(01:30:35):
style you have to be able toadapt to that.
You know Simon Sinek I lovelistening to him because he's
got a lot of really good ways ofdealing with some of these
leadership issues and thesementorship issues.
You know, like, you know hisbook on, you know the why and
all those kinds of things.

(01:30:55):
He's got some great adviceabout that.
But you know, the kids, theyoung people, have to be able to
take that too, and sometimesthat takes some really, really
intense training, like theweapons school, like Top Gun,
like Delta Force or SEAL Team 6,the training process that you

(01:31:16):
go through there.
And here's a good indication Afriend of mine runs a flight
instruction school here in Utahand he says he'll get like 30
people that want to come bepilot and all that stuff.
But when the pressure's reallyon, they take their first check
ride, they quit.
You know I'm not going to dothis anymore because they don't

(01:31:37):
like being critiqued or theydon't like being told they're
wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:31:42):
And you know, you, know I.
I like being told they're wrong.
And you know, you, know I.
I really thought about that too, because I agree with you 100
man.
And I thought about that, likewhat is the difference?
And when I think back to mychildhood and I'm sure back when
you were growing up, it waseven bigger.
But for me, growing up as amilitary brat, my dad was a
ranger.
He was all tabbed out and yeah,hoorah and um, my expectations

(01:32:05):
were high.
Like when I moved, my dadretired, moved from hawaii and I
moved to ohio.
Like I worked on a farm, Ibailed hay, worked at the local
grocery store, I played sportsalmost year round.
Um, criticism and criticism,adversity, that was all part of

(01:32:26):
my upbringing, especially in myteenage years.
Coaching, and I really feellike this generation doesn't get
a whole lot of that.
Like even chores, basic chores,like those things fundamentally
teach you what you're talkingabout.
Like I remember I was helpingmy friend down the street here.
He had a teenage son and he wascutting rose bushes and he had

(01:32:49):
a rake and he had like a trashcan and his dad gave him simple
instructions put the clippingsin the can.
And I'm sitting there watchingthis and it's like this kid
couldn't figure out how to takeplastic shiv.
This kid couldn't figure outhow to take plastic shiv, roll
duct tape over it and create amakeshift.
He couldn't look at thesecomponents like what you're

(01:33:11):
talking about and figure out howdo I put this together to make
a weapon.
And then I was like thisgeneration, that's what they're
missing.
They're missing that thatgrowth as a kid to teenage, to
adult, and then, when they're anadult, they're experiencing
that criticism and that coachingand that adversity that they

(01:33:34):
never really learned growing up.

Speaker 2 (01:33:38):
No, and they weren't taught it in school.
No, yeah, so when you become acurriculum director, when we
were setting up and creating thesyllabus for the KC-135 Weapons

(01:33:58):
School, we had to go through anadult education class and the
levels of learning it's calledBloom's Taxonomy.
You can go look this up.
It's changed a little bit.
You know there's, you knowunderstanding, all the way up to
evaluation, analysis, all thesedifferent things, and one of
the things that I noticed wasone of the higher levels of
learning, excuse me, right belowevaluation is synthesis Taking

(01:34:23):
this part, this part, this part,this part and making a new
whole concept out of that.
And that's one of the thingsthat I've noticed is, like you
mentioned, there's people thatare in the military that can't
synthesize like that and can'tput like the mistake I made okay

(01:34:44):
, not including the A-10s, notincluding, you know, ground
power.
Right, that was a synthesislearning experience for me,
because I realized, hey, you sayyou're a joint warfighter, but
you're really not fighter, butyou're really not.

(01:35:08):
You didn't include your othersister services in your plan
with these assets that can helpyou.
And sometimes these youngergeneration don't even recognize
that there's other assets theycan use, there's other tools
that they can use and they justgo and sometimes they just try
to use horsepower to get throughit, which you know and I know
doesn't work.
You know, and they getfrustrated because they haven't

(01:35:31):
been taught how to take a blanksheet of paper and create a
battle plan.
They haven't been told how toset goals and as you have a goal
and you write it down, well,what are the steps to achieve
that goal?
What do I have to do?
What are, what are the steps toachieve that goal?
What do I have to do?
What are the things that I needto achieve that goal?
And there's a lot of peoplethat are making a lot of money

(01:35:51):
right now that are helpingpeople learn.
That you know.
And a great book that I love andhave read several times is a
gentleman by the name of DeanGraziosi and he's got a book
that's called MillionaireSuccess Habits.
I've got it right here behindme.

(01:36:13):
I keep it close because I go toit quite a bit and he works a
lot with Tony Robbins and youknow your question would be
fascinating to ask Tony Robbinsand see what he says.
You know, when you started 40years ago teaching people, what
do you see the differences nowand how you have to handle
situations.

(01:36:34):
Okay, blueprint to help youvisualize and see all of the
pieces of the puzzle that arearound you, how to bring them
all together and how to truly bea successful millionaire and
develop those discipline, habitsand mindsets to get through a

(01:36:59):
lot of these issues that youngpeople are facing today.
We always hear all the time andpeople joke about it you're in
your mother's basement playingvideo games.
How many times have you heardthat, kp?
A lot, a lot, okay, a lot.
Well, why is that?
What would cause a human beingto get to a point where I just

(01:37:30):
wanna play video games all dayand basically give up on being a
millionaire?
And Dean Graziosi will tell youit's so easy to make money now
off of social media.
You know my YouTube channel hasgrown exponentially over the

(01:37:50):
last 15 months 16 months that Icreated it.
I started in February of lastyear and I, you know I have
225,000 subscribers and I wentover 190 million views on my
YouTube channel yesterday.
Wow, you know that's insane In15 months.
All right, and it's because ofpeople like you, kp, that are

(01:38:13):
doing things like you're doinghere your podcast and reaching
out to some of these greatguests that you've had on that
have all of this experience andyou're sharing it with other
people in the hopes that, hey,that's something I need to
reevaluate in my life and change.
Okay, and you do a great job ofasking the right questions

(01:38:37):
during the you know we've beenalmost it's almost two hours now
.
I know you ask the rightquestions, okay, and and good on
you, brother, for being able tosee through a lot of the
conversation that we've had andother conversations that I've
watched you have asked the rightquestions so that people give
you that information to help youimprove your life.

Speaker 1 (01:39:00):
Yeah, I learned something every conversation and
I and I really like how youconnected your technical job in
the Air Force to a lot of lifelessons and it's true Like
there's a lot of things thatI've done in tactics whether it
be military, law enforcement orwhatever like that are relatable
to life, just life.

(01:39:21):
I don't care if you're a schoolteacher or if you are just a
manager somewhere.
Like a lot of the things thatyou talked about today are
really relatable, whether it's aone degree turn, whether it's
something as simplistic as a PVCpipe that's actually leading,
leading thousands or tons andtons of steel through the ocean.

(01:39:41):
I mean, it's amazing to me tohear your story and stories like
yours, where there's so much tolearn from people.
Even if you think it's notrelatable to what you're doing,
it is in reality.
There's things to take fromthat.

Speaker 2 (01:39:59):
Well, and that's because I think, kp, there's
common denominators.
There really is Okay,discipline being one of them.
And, man, you and I, weunderstood discipline, didn't we
?
Yeah, and that's even taughtdifferently today, isn't it?
If you kind of look at, youknow the generations that we're

(01:40:26):
talking about here disciplinehas kind of a different meaning
than it did when you and I firststarted at this.
All right, but you know thediscipline to get up early in
the morning, make your bed andsit down and read a book.
That is going to help improveyour life, okay.
Or listen to, like your podcastand hear some of the stories
from these other people, andbeing able to really synthesize
the things that your guests aretalking about that apply to

(01:40:49):
these other people's lives.
You know, and again, it's youknow all these little small
pieces around.
You know, but from listening toyour episodes, being able to
take all those and put themtogether to make a disciplinary
change in your life.
But also the mindset and that'sanother thing that I think is

(01:41:11):
people are struggling with is todo some of these hard things
takes a particular mindset andto be able to come in, have a
lieutenant colonel go, yourmission is canceled.
You're doing this now andcompletely switch your brain
into a completely differentfunction, where now I'm going
into bad guy territory in anairplane that has no defensive

(01:41:35):
systems on it whatsoever and I'mgoing to refuel airplanes that
are armed and can protect me,that don't have enough gas to do
it, can't protect me, thatdon't have enough gas to do it,
but yet my mission is to go andhelp my brothers and sisters
complete their mission, get homeand sleep in their own beds,
and I think that's the kind ofurgency that's also lacking to

(01:41:57):
KP is some of these kids, someof these people don't have a
sense of urgency about doingsome of these things.

Speaker 1 (01:42:05):
Yeah, have a a sense of urgency.
Yeah, about doing some of thesethings, yeah, and then, like
you, and, like you said, itlooks like with what you just
described, that's soulfulfillment.
I mean knowing that you did ajob that was much bigger than
than you and understanding andunderlining the importance of
that job too.

Speaker 2 (01:42:23):
You know how I felt when we came home from that
mission, where 32 F-16s pilotsgot to sleep in their own beds.
You're freaking euphoric.
We did something and we reallyaccomplished something today,
okay, yeah, but at the same timewe did something that is truly

(01:42:46):
magnificent in an air campaignwhere a lot of things are
happening, and the sense ofaccomplishment when you get back
from that is just freakingsurreal.
And I'm sure you've been onmissions in the military, You've
done things in law enforcement,where you came back and you
said we really made a difference.
Today and I think that'sanother thing too that may be

(01:43:09):
lacking is that sense ofaccomplishment.
And sometimes to do those hardthings, sometimes to do those
hard things, you have to gothrough that in order to have
that sense of accomplishment.
And there's sometimes where,yeah, it may come close to
breaking you.
You talk to anybody that's beenthrough BUDS or Delta Force

(01:43:32):
selection.
You know they talk about.
You know I had a run with shinsplints.
You know Goggins, he's aclassic example of that, you
know, and all the things thathappened to him.
You know, yeah, and he'swritten about that and he's
trying to improve people's lives.
Like you are Right, Like I amon my podcast.

(01:43:52):
I tell everybody, you know, I'mgoing to show you how the
aviation world works andincrease critical thinking
skills both in the air and onthe ground, and that's what
you're trying to do.
You're trying to increasecritical thinking skills both in
the air and on the ground, andthat's what you're trying to do.
You're trying to increasecritical thinking skills both in
the air and on the ground, witha generation that isn't taught
critical thinking skills.

Speaker 1 (01:44:11):
Right, yeah, and they may not have had a bad day
because, in reality, my agegroup, everyone that came into
law enforcement specifically,was in my age group.
We were Afghanistan or Iraqveterans, yeah, you know, and
and nowadays a lot of the kidsgoing into that field and
industry are just leavingcollege thinking that they

(01:44:35):
learned or they understandthings, and the reality is the
book doesn't teach you as muchas the, as the failures that you
, that you encompass when youare actually doing something.

Speaker 2 (01:44:49):
I have a great story about that, because I was a
hiring manager while I was atRockwell on my systems
engineering team and we werelooking for good systems
engineers.
All right, kp, I'd look at 200resumes.
I would pick maybe 10 peoplethat I wanted to look at a
little closer and out of those10 people I would call maybe two

(01:45:14):
or three to come do aninterview.
And I did my interviews alittle different.
I did scenario interviews and Iremember this one person out of
Purdue engineering definitelyyou know a class, a school and

(01:45:34):
sitting down with them and themsaying you know, you're going to
give me a hundred thousanddollar job.
A hundred thousand dollarsbecause you know of my grades
and the things that I did goingthrough engineering and I said,
really, $100,000 right out ofcollege, really, yeah, six
figure.
I said OK, I'll tell you what.

(01:45:58):
And I pushed a blank sheet ofpaper across the table to this
individual and I said I want youto draw me a fighter cockpit
that has everything that isneeds to be in it Aviate,
navigate, communicate, sensorsand weapons.
Couldn't do it, couldn't do it,didn't have the experience to
have a hundred thousand dollarjob.

(01:46:18):
And I just and that's what Itold this individual.
I leaned back and I saidnobody's going to hire you at
$100,000 because you don't haveexperience.
You have a lot of bookknowledge, okay, right, a lot of
book knowledge, okay.
But you don't have theexperience to back it up, right?
I just handed you a blank sheetof paper and said build me a
cockpit.
And you have no idea what goesin that cockpit.
And your background wasaviation systems engineering.

(01:46:43):
You know, have you even flownan airplane?
They had, okay, but they had noidea what goes into a military
fighter cockpit.
And so I learned from that.
You know, hey, of course HRcalled me and goes why is this

(01:47:04):
individual so pissed off?
And I told Steve, the HR guy.
I said because I put a blanksheet of paper in front of him
and embarrassed him.
Well, why'd you embarrass him?
Well, I did a scenario-basedkind of interview and they
couldn't pass it.
And once I told him he went hey, that was a pretty smart way to

(01:47:26):
do that.
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:47:27):
I mean, at the end of the day you busted his ego and
at some point he may come backand thank you for that.
I hope so, because the realityis is like.
Everyone needs that.
Everyone needs that humbling.
You think you have that pieceof paper and that's all you need
.
That's why I'm so glad I went.
You know, I, I, I decided tocommission after college, during
a time of war.

(01:47:48):
I knew that I was going to go.
I just didn't know when.
I didn't know it's going to be30 days after landing in Hawaii.
So I mean I'm glad that I gotmy ass kicked in Iraq as a
platoon leader.
I got chewed out by NCOs.
I got I I made decisions, splitsecond decisions that either

(01:48:09):
you know, save lives or causelives, and it's.
It's something that'sleadership, that's how you learn
in life, and I love how thisconversation has gone, where you
went from talking about yourtechnical profession to bringing
it back to real world here atthe end.

Speaker 2 (01:48:29):
this is awesome and you know what kp.
I'll tell you a story here.
I got fired from my dream job.
I was literally sitting in adream job and I was moving up
the ladder okay, squadroncommander was next and I got got
fired.
I got fired from my job, myposition as the deputy commander
of the initial cadre for theKC-135 weapons school.

(01:48:51):
I was discouraged, I wasdisappointed, I was embarrassed
in front of my peers, and thisgoes along with what you just
mentioned.
You know, having your egobusted.
Okay, sometimes that's a goodthing, a really good thing.
Okay, because it causes you toreevaluate what your position
really is in life.

(01:49:13):
And two things happened fromthis okay, they were going to
put me in a position where Icouldn't use all of this
extensive planning andoperational and tactical level
knowledge and experience.
And finally, I told thiscolonel I don't want this job.
And I thought, oh, here we goagain.
You know I have one knee capped.

(01:49:34):
I'm going to get the other onecapped now, all right.
And the wing commander saidokay, we're just going to put
you in a squadron.
I said, perfect, put me in asquadron so I can teach these
young kids all of this knowledgeand information that I have.
But now I'm thinking what am Igoing to do?
I just got fired.
I'm not going to be a squadroncommander, my career is

(01:49:55):
basically done.
That was April of 2001.
Everything changed on 9-11,didn't it?

Speaker 1 (01:50:01):
Yeah, did that, keep me.
And you just repositioned eventhat one degree right, exactly
At a time, exactly Because nowfour years of great military
service.

Speaker 2 (01:50:11):
And now what was happening, kp is they were
scrambling for our grads of ourschool and we didn't have that
many at that point.
I think within 48 hours of the9-11 event.

(01:50:38):
On that Tuesday, two of ourgraduates from our school were
down at Tyndall creating the airrefueling plan for the air
defense of North America, withall the fighters over all the
cities and stuff like that.
I left eight days later toIncirlik, turkey, and then came
home from there, went back tothe Combined Air and Space
Operations Center at PrinceSultan and I was doing KP
literally everything I hadtaught.
And when I got into thatposition, you know I thought I
just got fired.
How am I going to pull myselfup?

(01:50:58):
You know, my ego has beenthrashed and everything.
And I just said to myself sitdown and do a good job, just do
the best that you can and getthe right people around you.
That will help you do that.
And fortunately I did.
And one night some army colonelsays I don't know what it is,

(01:51:20):
but there's a big, big operationcoming and it's named after a
snake.
Okay, and that's all I know.
This is the army guy, all right, and it was operation Anaconda.
And, as you know, the firstweek of Anaconda did not go well
Right, there's a lot of, lot ofmistakes made and I was

(01:51:41):
fortunate to interview thehelicopter pilot that Neil
Roberts fell out of.
Al Mack, and that's anotherbook you need to go get, al Mack
.
You know 160th SOAR pilot.
I mean just incredible stories.
Okay, it's called Razor 3, aNight Stalker's War A Night

(01:52:03):
Stalker's Wars okay, by Al Mack,m-a-c-k.
I can't say enough good thingsabout that book.
But again, here I am.
I'm thrown into a positionwhere, you know, my ego is
busted but I have to perform.
And I'm in a position where allof my education and training
and all of my experience comesto an absolute head and the team

(01:52:27):
does absolutely great things,fabulous things.
And after my third deploymentto Prince Sultan for Shakana man
, I came home feelingbulletproof.
You know there wasn't anythingI could do wrong because I
learned so much about myself.
And I have a name for it.

(01:52:48):
I call it God's vector check,mark.
I don't want you to be asquadron commander because
you're going to be neededsomewhere else.
And I know you don't understandwhat's happening to you right
now, your head's spinningbecause you just got fired.
But, believe me, I've got agreat position waiting for you
where you're going to useeverything that you have

(01:53:09):
experienced and learned andyou're going to use it in
situations that you couldn'thave dreamt possible.
That is going to really makeyou somebody and is really going
to put you on a great vectorfor the rest of your life.
And it did.

(01:53:30):
But it took that punch to thegut, kp, where you're sitting
across from this colonel andhe's like you know, I have no
confidence in your leadershipcapability whatsoever.
Imagine being told that man andyou talk about being a platoon
leader and facing this.
It is.
It's a punch to the gut becauseyou think you know, am I enough

(01:53:51):
?
What have I done wrong?
And it causes you thisreevaluation and then, once
you're thrown back into, youknow the mix you've got to
perform, you've got to put thatbehind you and sometimes that's
really hard.
All right, and fortunately forme, I had great people around me
, great people on my team the,the, the Tims I call them the

(01:54:11):
Tims Tim golfing Tim and Tim AAll right, two boom operators,
enlisted guys that were justincredible tanker planners as
boom operators.
All right, gramps I've talkedabout him Waino McCaskill All
these different people that wereon this team that helped me put

(01:54:32):
all this together and do allthis stuff and a lot of this
stuff.
We had to do on the fly andit's mentally exhausting at
times, but you go home and laydown in your bed, you go, man.
I really did something today.

Speaker 1 (01:54:46):
Yeah, and so it goes back to those relationships you
talked about and who yousurround yourself with, and you
had tremendous resiliency andadapt and overcome when it came
to your career, and this hasbeen an absolute amazing
conversation.
Like I did not expect, Iexpected this to be an all
technical conversation, but herewe are full circle, coming back
to just life, life choices,picking yourself up, brushing

(01:55:12):
yourself off and you just keepon going drive on.

Speaker 2 (01:55:18):
You know You've had incredible guests on that have
incredible stories, but theyalso have what we call lessons
learned versus lessons observed,and you know what I'm talking
about here.
You know incredible lessons,incredible lessons that they've

(01:55:39):
learned while they have been inthe crucible, ok, and Incredible
lessons observed, to where Ididn't do that right, okay, but
cause you to reevaluate.
And you've had a number ofguests on on your show, which I
think is fantastic because ithas truly helped other people
kind of see, hmm, maybe I needto reevaluate, or hey, that

(01:56:00):
applies to me in my life.
So good on you, brother.

Speaker 1 (01:56:05):
I really hope so, man , and you know, if I die next
year at the end of the day, Ireally enjoy sharing these
stories and I don't wantanyone's career experiences,
failures, failing forward, noneof that stuff to ever be in vain
Like.
The fact is that you shared andyou were honest about and

(01:56:27):
authentic about your career.
The times that you failed butyou picked yourself up and and
here you are today has beenabsolutely amazing for me to
hear and I am blessed to haveconnected with people like you
and have worked with so manygreat people over my life, and I
just thought that's why Istarted this podcast, that's why
I love doing this.

Speaker 2 (01:56:44):
Yeah Well, I appreciate that, man, and it's
been great to be on with you.
It's been great to be on yourshow and to Thank you.
You know I tell everybody I'mjust a knuckle dragon tanker
pilot, but I've got a lot ofexperience and a lot of stories
that do apply to people in manyways and I appreciate the

(01:57:07):
opportunity KP for being on yourshow and being able to relate
those and hopefully we'll dothis again, man.

Speaker 1 (01:57:14):
Yeah, definitely, I would love to do that and you're
a very humbled professional.
Now I also want to mention thatyou do have a YouTube channel.
What's the name of that channel?
Just Marcusera Marcusera.

Speaker 2 (01:57:24):
Yeah, just go to at M A R K H A S A R A and, uh,
you'll see my banner up there.
Uh, uh, I've been verysuccessful at doing these shorts
.
My uh lessons from the cockpitpodcast is there.
I just started doing YouTubelives.
Um, I've got three or four ofthose up now.
I do them Tuesday and Thursdaynights at 7 pm, mountain time,

(01:57:48):
and I've been having a lot offun with that.
A lot of fun with that.
A lot of good people have beenon and I just ask, I let people
ask questions, you know, and ifI can answer them, I'll answer
them.
You know, if there's some, youknow, classified stuff that's
involved, you know I'll say youknow I can't talk about that,
but but I'll be straight up withyou, you know, and, uh, I

(01:58:11):
haven't been doing it for verylong and we had about I don't
know 25 people on last night.
But, uh, I've my YouTubechannel is is, like I said,
growing pretty quick.

Speaker 1 (01:58:21):
Sounds like you're doing extremely well and I'm
very much proud of you and yourtransition.
And again, life told youafterwards hey, I got something
else for you over here, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:58:30):
Yeah, and, like I said, it's God's vector check.
And sometimes, you know, like Isaid, KP, you have to walk
through the fire, literally.
You know, standing at the gatesof hell holding your son's hand
, you know, while he's fightingcancer, and say, hey, I can get
through this.
I can get through this and youget through it because of the
people that you have around you.

(01:58:51):
You get through it because yourleadership allows you to use
your innovative skills and yourbrainpower and you're given the
tools to accomplish that mission.
And sometimes you don'trecognize those tools.
And I'm telling everybody, youknow, use everything that you
have around you and read some ofthese good books that I've

(01:59:14):
mentioned.
And, of course, you know I'mgoing to put in a plug for mine
once again.
You know I'll give you my emailaddress.
You can get it on Amazon, butI've got the ones I have.
The books that are have thecolor pictures and 32 color
pictures in the softbacks, Okay,and all of the proceeds go to

(01:59:37):
the Airlift Tanker AssociationHeritage Committee.
So I don't make any money offthe book and it goes to telling
the air mobility story and theair refueling story.

Speaker 1 (01:59:49):
Yeah, Please send me all the links that you'd like
for me to put in the show notes.
Sure, I would love to put thatat the bottom for anyone
listening out there, and I hopewe were able to reach some folks
out there.
But, mark, I really appreciateyour time today.
We're going on over two hoursand I know you got stuff to do
today and that beautifulmountain weather out there.

Speaker 2 (02:00:08):
So thank you for the time.
My daughter's downstairsscreaming at me about something.
I've got to go down and findout what's going on.
So again, kp, thanks again forhaving me on, and everyone else
out there.

Speaker 1 (02:00:16):
This wraps up another very impactful episode.
Huge thanks to LieutenantColonel Mark Hasara for sharing
his mission-tested wisdom, hiscandid experiences from the
skies and his commitment toeducating the next generation.
Remember, real leadership isn'tjust about rank.
It's about responsibility,resiliency and reflection.
If today's conversationresonated with you, please share
this episode.

(02:00:36):
Leave us a review.
Follow Lieutenant ColonelHasara on Instagram, as well as
TikTok and YouTube, for moretactical insight and inspiration
.
Again, all this stuff ties backto real life stuff.
So until next time, stay tuned,stay focused and stay motivated
Warriors.
And dare dominate and dream.
There it is.

Speaker 2 (02:00:57):
Dare dominate and dream Dare dominate and dream
man.

Speaker 1 (02:01:00):
All right.
God bless you, sir.
Thank you everyone forlistening.

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