July 26, 2024 • 44 mins
What happens when a father and son, both veterans, sit down to share their military stories across different generations? Join us as we uncover the powerful, emotional journey that began with my father being drafted during the Vietnam War, me enlisting in the Army National Guard in 1998, September 11th, and my decision to commission into the active duty military during a time of war.
From the changes in military training and the unique challenges of urban warfare to the emotional The toll of lost comrades, our conversation offers a rare, heartfelt glimpse into the evolving landscape of military service and its lasting impacts on our lives.
Hear firsthand accounts of the anxiety and constant worry that families face when loved ones are deployed. My father and I discuss how we coped with the daily stresses, the importance of maintaining communication during chaotic moments, and the often insensitive reactions from those who might not fully grasp the gravity of our experiences. This episode sheds light on the disconnect between soldiers' realities and public perception, aiming to bridge that gap through personal stories and reflections.
We wrap up by exploring the complexities of supporting a child who chooses to join the military. The episode captures the pride, concern, and mixed emotions that come with such a significant life decision. Listen in as we reflect on the transformative power of military service, the deep bonds it forges, and the enduring conflict between duty and doubt. Thank you for joining us in this candid, heartfelt discussion, and for supporting those who serve and their families.
From the changes in military training and the unique challenges of urban warfare to the emotional The toll of lost comrades, our conversation offers a rare, heartfelt glimpse into the evolving landscape of military service and its lasting impacts on our lives.
Hear firsthand accounts of the anxiety and constant worry that families face when loved ones are deployed. My father and I discuss how we coped with the daily stresses, the importance of maintaining communication during chaotic moments, and the often insensitive reactions from those who might not fully grasp the gravity of our experiences. This episode sheds light on the disconnect between soldiers' realities and public perception, aiming to bridge that gap through personal stories and reflections.
We wrap up by exploring the complexities of supporting a child who chooses to join the military. The episode captures the pride, concern, and mixed emotions that come with such a significant life decision. Listen in as we reflect on the transformative power of military service, the deep bonds it forges, and the enduring conflict between duty and doubt. Thank you for joining us in this candid, heartfelt discussion, and for supporting those who serve and their families.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Here's fall in.
It's time for formation.
Today.
I have my old man on the otherend of the video and the mic
joining us on the podcast todaybecause I want to talk to him
about something that I thinkwanes on a lot of, a lot of the
minds of parents out there whohave children who decide to join
(00:24):
the military, and it's probablysomething that we didn't really
think about early in 98 when Isigned up to join the Army
National Guard and then later ondecided to go active duty army
Kind of set a course for myselfto be in the military.
And then, of course, September11th happens and then we get
(00:44):
into two huge wars inAfghanistan and Iraq.
And I know that when I got mycommission I knew that at some
point I would probably deploy,but I just didn't know when.
I knew it was inevitable, but Ijust didn't know when that
would happen.
I didn't think it would happenat such a quick pace.
At any rate, Dad, how are youdoing today?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Doing pretty good, massive hop here in Ohio.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
With you being in the military, you've been to quite
a few duty stations and, being asmall-town kid from Kentucky,
what was it like when you werein the military for those 20
years, experiencing the wintersin Germany and the summer
(01:30):
climates in Hawaii andeverywhere else you were at?
I mean because you came from asmall town in the middle of
nowhere, kentucky.
Right yeah, that was your world, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I thought that was the world.
Well, I didn't think too muchof the cold winters in Germany
and Korea, but I kind of enjoyedsome of the summers in Hawaii.
And I was also stationed downin Cocoa Beach, florida, for a
while believe it or not as aninfantryman, and I enjoyed that
(02:02):
weather down there too.
I just never did care for thecold weather.
I enjoyed that weather downthere too, just never did care
for the cold weather, had enoughof it in Kentucky, fort Knox.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
You spent a good five years down there in Fort Knox
right.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
More than that, I spent five years on drill status
there.
Then I spent a year in aninfantry company they only had
one infantry company on the baseand I spent a year in that
company and I spent a couple ofyears in BRM committee group
what it was called then workingon the rifle range before I
(02:36):
became a drill sergeant.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I guess you were kind of fortunate because you were
pretty close to home, weren'tyou?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, I wasn't far, three hours maybe, from home
when I was at Knox.
Actually, I was at Knox.
I came from Germany to FortKnox and I was only there for a
year until I got orders to go toVincent in Italy but my mother
(03:09):
was in the hospital and she wasdying with cancer and I got a
letter from the doctor andhanded in it to the hospital or
somebody at Fort Knox I can'tremember whoever you turn that
kind of stuff into and they gaveme a deferment and I stayed
there for another six years.
I think remember whoever youturn that kind of stuff into and
they gave me a deferment and Istayed there for another six
years.
I think, oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I didn't know that.
It's interesting.
I um, yeah, you, you were veryfortunate back then.
You were, you know, you weredrafted in 71 during the Vietnam
war and, uh, just due to yourtraining and everything, you
weren't sent that way, but youwere sent the opposite way to
Germany.
The idea of war, I guess, waskind of still remnant in your
(03:56):
mind because you had beenthrough it during Vietnam.
I'm sure you had a lot offriends.
I know we had some familymembers go to Vietnam as well.
Right, yeah, we did.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
We had some people go to Vietnam as well, right, yeah
, yeah, we did had some uhpeople I guess there wasn't
family members, but people thatI went to school with very, very
good friends with.
Uh, three or four of themdidn't make it back from Vietnam
.
So, uh, the people from highschool I knew especially well uh
(04:25):
, didn't make it back fromVietnam.
I knew the.
You know, I was in that bigcity in Northeastern Kentucky
called Moorhead, where MoorheadState University is, and, as a
matter of fact, my best friendthat I kind of grew up in my
teen years with was the veryfirst person from Round County,
(04:46):
kentucky, killed in the VietnamWar.
Then the guy I played footballwith, big old fella, he was
killed over there.
One of my good friends waskilled there but he was killed
by one of his buddies.
It was murder.
His buddy killed buddies and itwas murder.
(05:07):
His buddy killed him in chargeof murder.
And then another guy that was alittle older than me but he was
related to me on 2 Mary waskilled over there.
So I knew a few I didn't makeit back to Vietnam.
A few from a small town likethat is like having a whole lot
(05:29):
from a big town, you know yeah,so it touched the community.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And you went your entire career, for the most part
without having any majorconflicts between 71 and 91.
I mean, we had things here andthere, and we had a few things
here and there, but nothing asmajor as Vietnam or anything
like Iraq or Afghanistan, right?
No?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
nothing real dangerous.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Because even when I went to basic training in 99, we
were still training for theRussians to come over the berm
from the Cold War.
We were doing the whole standtwo thing and everything else,
building the hasty position inthe morning and the whole nine
yards Warfare changed completely, completely to urban warfare
(06:15):
when we went into Iraq andAfghanistan.
I know that when you had mesign up in 98, 99, was the
thought of war even in your mindat all?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
No, it really wasn't.
I had gone for so long withoutbeing in a war.
The United States had gone forso long without being in a war.
I just didn't see it when thewar did start, like you, you
said it was more urban warfarewhich rendered all the training
(06:49):
that I've done for 20 years,rendered it all worthless.
yeah, yeah, it's, it's crazybecause I was ready to go out
and fight in the jungle, youknow, and sneak up, try to sneak
through the dried leaveswithout making noise and stuff
like that.
That wouldn't have been anygood.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
So I signed up for the military in 1998,
technically at the end of 1998.
Went into the National Guard in1999, did four years, went to
college, got my commission,decided to commission.
That was completely for mycountry.
I could have gotten out in fouryears with my bachelor's degree
(07:31):
and walked out and I wanted togo active duty, which is what
you instructed me early on.
You stopped me from goingactive duty right out of high
school.
You instructed me to get mydegree first and then decide if
I wanted to go active duty,which I think is pretty wise,
pretty wise advice.
And I'm glad that you gave methat advice, because had I had
(07:53):
just gone in and enlisted, Iprobably would not have been
able to get my bachelor's degreeback then, Back then.
I mean, now it's a littledifferent, but like you said
before you had said hey, youknow, I remember when I was a,
when I was in charge of folks,you know, if we had something to
do, and then they had college,well, they were going to do what
we had to do first.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, during that time, the Cold War era, soldiers
signed up for college.
The Army really did and my unitreally did bend over backwards
to try to not interfere withtheir education, the best they
could.
(08:33):
But you know, if a deploymentor something came up, then they
had to put that on the backburner.
But that really wasn't veryoften Right.
We tried to do everything wecould to keep them going to
school yeah, well, I appreciateyou giving me that advice.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Uh, and then so, when I I joined the military, I,
like I said, by this time it was2003, uh, when I got my
commissioning and, um, september11th was well underway, um, in
2001 way, in 2001,.
We were active in Iraq andAfghanistan.
At this time it was pretty hotin Iraq, afghanistan kind of
(09:10):
cooled off a little bit End of2003, fallujah happens, of
course, and then later that yearI deploy to Iraq as a second
lieutenant.
So we're talking about, I amliterally, I'm literally, I'm
literally fish bait in in thescheme of things.
(09:31):
When it comes to the rankstructure of officers, I am like
the bottom, um, but at any rate, at any rate, um, so I, I
deploy as a as, literally, uh,uh, the lowest of low rank for a
commissioned officer, and thenmy job is as a platoon leader
for a transportation platoonwhich, you know, back then there
was a lot of IEDs getting setout, a lot of attacks on the
(09:54):
logistical lines going to andfrom different points on the
main supply routes in Iraq.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout how you felt about your
son now having to go pay hisdues and serve his country?
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Yeah, and I knew you were going to ask that question,
so I've had time to think aboutthat a little bit, thank you,
and I just guess I have to bequite honest.
I thought about when you askedme that question, what am I
going to say?
And I think it's so differentfor everybody as far as I know
that there is really no definiteanswer.
(10:37):
I can't give you a, I can't putin words my feelings.
I guess my feelings, I guessyour feelings, are what you feel
inside and words just don'tdescribe it and make a picture
out of it for you.
But I can tell you that it was atime with the media, the
(11:01):
coverage of the wars and whatwas going on in Iraq at the time
.
It was wars and what was goingon in Iraq at the time.
I've never been so worried inmy life.
I mean, it's just something youcan't describe.
You see what you see on TV andthey try it.
(11:23):
Of course they try to dramatizeit and reach the hearts of the
American people, I guess withthe news.
But I think it did reach thehearts of Americans that were
involved, that had a relative ora child over there involved,
(11:49):
that had a relative or a childover there.
But I'm not really sure, evento this day I'm not real sure,
uh, if the same coverage reachedthe heart of the average
american that didn't wasn'tinvolved in it anyway.
They just I could tell if yougo out and you try to mention,
oh, I got a son in Iraq and he'srunning convoy, oh, that's nice
(12:11):
, what's the weather going to belike tomorrow?
They wasn't really interested.
But for the person, for myself,I can remember just waiting and
hoping every day.
I knew I wasn't going to get aphone call every day, I knew
that.
But I kept hoping and waitingfor that phone call just to
(12:36):
ensure me that everything wasokay.
And you made it through anotherday and it really, really felt
good.
My phone rang and I looked andit was a call from you, because
I knew that gave me another dayand another convoy to worry
about.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I can't imagine what it must have been like, because
at the time you were stillworking, going to work, and I'm
sure the subject came up anumber of times with some of
your co-workers and your friends, who didn't have any vested
interest, and I'm sure that theysaid things that probably hit
you to the bone and might havehit home for you.
(13:19):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Before that, though, I wasworking in a factory and they
couldn't work and talk on thecell phone, so I actually
volunteered to go on third shiftbecause they had less bosses
there, less people to watch you.
So when you called I knew onthird shift I'd be able to
(13:44):
answer the phone, run to thedoor where I could get better
reception and talk to you for awhile.
But, yeah, most people weresympathetic with the soldiers in
Iraq.
From what I noticed, though, itseemed like the women were the
ones that made the comments thatI didn't like, and it was when
(14:10):
I would show them a picture of acatastrophic event that
happened over there, and theywould look at the picture and
they would say why are youshowing that to people?
Why would anybody want to seethat?
And I said, well, becausethat's what our young men and
women that are in Iraq, that'swhat they're doing, that's what
(14:33):
they're fighting for, that'swhat they live with every day.
It's not who would want to seeit.
My thought everybody should seeit.
Everybody in the United Statesshould see the truth over there,
not just what the media pantsand puts on there.
I don't know, maybe it'sbecause women are just more
soft-hearted and what theydidn't want to see some of the
(14:55):
gore and stuff.
But most everybody else that Iknew was pretty sympathetic and
pretty understanding, and mostof them that I cared enough
about to associate with on adaily basis, that I worked with.
Usually every couple of threedays they would ask how you were
(15:17):
doing.
I was happy to say that, as faras I know, everything's still
good.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
It also helps, too, that I worked there for a few
summers right.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, in fact, some of the people knew me, yeah,
they knew you personally and Iguess they were probably
thinking this is the young manthat used to be here.
It's the same one we're talkingabout that's in Iraq doing his
duty.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
I know that sometimes people can say things that can
be not very sensitive to folksthat are actually feeling the
burden of something like that.
I know you had mentioned thatto me before, but some of the
pictures you were showing peoplewere the pictures and the
videos I would send you right.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, they were the truth.
I knew that.
That's what you saw for real ona database.
And if the soldier, if you andall the other soldiers on active
duty that were stationed overthere, were seeing that every
day, why would I not want peoplehere to see what you're going
(16:21):
through and see what you'reseeing that?
Speaker 1 (16:24):
was my reality, yeah, and I always wanted to.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
That was my reality, yeah, and I always wanted to
make it their reality too.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
You know, and I almost want to say that while I
was there I felt like my mindand my body almost went to a I
don't know.
I guess I could describe it asa sleepwalking phase, because
there were things that happenedwhere I didn't put a whole lot
of thought into it.
But later down the road Ithought about it and I was like
(16:53):
why the hell did I do that?
Like that was pretty dangerousor that was not very smart or
that could have been very.
That could have ended verybadly for me and I plan on
sharing some of those storieslater on.
It's taken me a very long timeto talk about those things
specifically.
The one thing that I've learnedover the years is going back to
a time of your life where youfelt stress and anxiety to a
(17:15):
point where you thought maybethis might be.
It is not easy for someone totalk about.
It's not something that I'veshared with a lot of people over
the years.
So, since having that, thatperspective and having gone
through that situation thatyou've been through, with me
going to war and everythinggoing on in the world right now
(17:36):
I mean the world is on fire.
The world is on fire right nowand it's uh, I don't think a lot
of people are thinking aboutwar, I think I think people are
thinking about war, but they'renot thinking about the idea of
them think a lot of people arethinking about war.
I think people are thinkingabout war, but they're not
thinking about the idea of thembeing a part of it.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
It's more of a spectator sport for a lot of
folks, in my opinion.
I think people see it as kindof like something you watch on
TV but not something that you do.
What are your?
What advice do you have forparents out there that have kids
that are either in right now orplan on going into war or not
(18:14):
war, Going into the military andmight go to war?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
God, it's tough.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
It is, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah, I don't know if I could really give them advice
, except this is what we used tosay in the Army hope for the
best and prepare for the worst.
If you have a son or daughterin the military and they're not
in a combat zone, that's thebest.
(18:45):
But if they go to a combat zone, that's the best.
But if they go to a combat zoneand you see on the news that
the exact location where they'restationed is in heavy conflict,
that's going to be the worst.
That's when the worst will hithome.
That's when you wish that theyhad never joined the service.
(19:08):
I used to think.
I used to sit up at night andwonder how well you were getting
along and what you were doing.
I remember thinkingspecifically why do these
teenagers and young men in theiryoung 20s maybe get Thrown into
(19:32):
combat and doing things thatthey have never done and have to
grow up so fast?
They should.
This is what I was thinking.
I was thinking they shouldleave them home to take care of
the family and and take all theold retirees that spent 20 years
(19:57):
training and getting hard.
Take them over there and letthem do the work.
Send some of them young boysback home.
But you know, I knew thatwasn't going to happen.
I think it's not what happened.
When I got drafted.
They drafted me.
They didn't want some old man,but that's what I remember
thinking almost daily.
(20:19):
Why didn't they take me insteadof him?
Because I've been looking forthis day for a while, I thought.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
There's a lot of veterans and retirees and folks
that serve that feel the sameway as you do and we're asking
that question I had heard thatbefore from other veterans as
well where they wanted to signback up and go in and serve
their country.
I think that overall it's avery difficult question because
(20:54):
you know I was raised in the 80sand 90s where it was God and
country and you know, being anAmerican GI Joe fighting for
what's right, you know youalways think that, hey, if I put
in that position, I'll go servemy country.
But then we end up going tothese wars like Iraq, for
(21:14):
example.
We end up going to these warslike Iraq, for example, and
looking back at that now I'mgoing to tell you as an Iraqi
veteran myself this might be alittle controversial, but even
today I ask myself why was Ithere?
Because I don't know for sure.
I was there for weapons of massdestruction, which none were
ever found, and the country wascompletely destabilized for a
(21:35):
long time.
But I signed up for the militaryto serve my country right, so
it's a double-edged sword there.
Do the right thing for the red,white and blue.
We've had family members in ourown that have served our
country over the years World WarII, and then Vietnam, of course
(21:56):
, that have served our countryover the years World War II, and
then Vietnam, of course, thathave served proudly.
So it's kind of a double-edgedsword, I think, for parents to
hey, yeah, go serve, serve yourcountry, do the right thing.
But on the other hand it's likeare you getting put in harm's
way, unnecessarily or somethingelse?
I think that's what I've cometo, come to my own terms, I
(22:21):
think in the last like 15, 20years or so.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah, I think.
Uh, I learned through my careerthat if that question comes to
mind, you're better off with thequestion of am I supposed to be
here?
Am I doing the right thing?
You're better off just to tryto shove that question off to
(22:51):
the side and don't even thinkabout it.
Try to push it out of your headand listen to what your mission
is, Listen to your superiorofficer and whatever they say.
That's my mission.
I'm doing it because that'swhat I swore I was going to do.
(23:13):
And is it right or wrong?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
You can figure that out later.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, do that after you get out.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Right, yeah, no doubt I mean I could.
If I was distracted my wholetime there, I would not have
been able to think clearly.
That's actually really wiseadvice, because anytime I've
heard this once that when youget your mission you ask am I,
what am I doing?
Where am I?
Right now, I'm at war.
What am I doing?
I'm fighting this war as asoldier, as a marine, whatever
(23:43):
it is.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah whether it's right or wrong I'm here, right,
right or wrong.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I'm here.
This is what I gotta do.
I gotta make it, I gottasurvive, I gotta bring everyone
back, that's it.
But yeah, in the last 15 yearsor so I've kind of pondered that
question to myself and, like Isaid, I went into kind of the
sleepwalk phase during that time.
But taking it back to what yousaid earlier, when folks would
ask you about me and they wouldask about where I'm at, did you
ever get annoyed with the ideathat some folks would ask you
(24:09):
where I'm at and then you wouldtell them and then they would go
oh OK, well, that's, that's ina safe area, that's behind the
front lines, that's behind theredcoats.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, everybody thought that for a long time At
least this is an impression Iget.
For a long time everybodythought the only bad place in
Iraq was Baghdad.
If it wasn't in Baghdad, youwas okay.
Where the hell is that place ateither?
I've never heard of that one.
It must be a good place, a safeplace, but that's what seemed
(24:40):
to be to me.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Baghdad was Iraq, that was the war, not Baghdad
yeah, you know, what'sinteresting too was what I found
out later on was I ran into alot of your former NCOs who were
now sergeantors when I was overthere and they looked me up and
down and they saw no Ranger taband they saw that gold bar on
(25:05):
my collar and was like theyasked me what the hell happened
to you.
Your dad was a.
Your dad was a was a Ranger.
It was air assault, all theseother things and a freaking
drill sergeant for five years.
But it was in a joking manner,you know, of course.
But also too, I think what Ifound interesting later on was
(25:27):
to find out that I had like asecond cousin that was involved
in the whole Blackwater ambushand just so happened that you
had worked with him up at EastRange as well for for a few
years.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yes, it is yeah.
As soon as I saw his name Iknew he was related to your
mother.
We talked and found out he wasa cousin.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
He was from the big Island, right, and then he
retired.
He was a Ranger as well.
He retired and and obviouslydecided to go back into
contracting with blackwater.
Yeah, that's what I understandhere.
Yeah, and he was one of the Ithink one of the three or four
that was ambushed there inpelusia and was hung from the
bridge, um, and burned.
But did you even realize thatat the time when I was over
(26:14):
there?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
No, I did not, not that I recall at that time
anyway, yeah, I don't think theyreally.
I'm not sure You're the onethat told me about it, and
exactly when that was before youwent and after you came back,
I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, I remember the incident and seeing it on the
news but I didn't know he wasinvolved in it.
How would you say that overall?
You know, I didn't know thatyou worked third shift, just so
that you can get my calls.
I want to say thank you forthat, cause it wasn't easy
sometimes calling and and I hadto go to the little phone
station and hope that it wasworking that day, hope that it
(26:55):
wasn't knocked out, but I triedto call you.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I had my phone number changed too.
You can call Flight PattersonAir Force Base vicinity in
Fairbourn and I had a, I think aSpringfield number I believe it
was a Columbus phone number andI had it changed to a Fairbourn
number that I still have todayand it's been several years ago.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, there was an area that I used to walk to from
where I was living and I therewas like these field phones that
the that the comms unit had setup.
It literally was like a ODgreen phones that were kind of
under these concrete bunkers.
And I would go there and whenyou picked it up you hit a
button and you could hearwhether there was a tone there.
And I would go there and whenyou picked it up you hit a
(27:38):
button and you could hearwhether there was a tone there.
And so if I heard the tone Iknew, oh, it's working today, so
I could call.
So then I would call right Patand then right Pat would patch
me to you, and so that was oneway.
There was another phone bankthat was on the base but it was
further away from me and, um, Iwas sitting in there one day, I
think I was talking to you andthen all of a sudden the phone
(27:59):
just went out like that, andwhat had happened was a mortar
had landed just outside of that,just outside of that phone bank
, and had knocked out the powercompletely, literally just right
outside.
And I didn't.
I guess when the mortar hit itdidn't explode, but it was just
enough to knock out the powerand then that was it for about
(28:19):
two weeks.
I couldn't call for two weeksafter that, but that's uh, I'm
sure that was a long 11 months.
And during that 11 months, howdo you feel like you feel that
was a long?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
11, a long two weeks when I didn't hear from you too.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
How do you feel like you coped during those 11 months
?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
The same way you did, the way you coped with being in
country and dealing with thewar.
I watched a lot of news.
Every time the news came on Ihad to be there in front of the
TV and see what's going on.
I want to know, I want to knowwhat's going on.
I want to know, I want to knowwhat's going on.
But I was like you.
I was just kind of in thatsleepwalking phase and just
taking everything one step andone day at a time.
(29:08):
I didn't try to overguess andnot do too much thinking at one
time, but I was.
I think I was in that.
I knew exactly what you weretalking about.
When you said you were kind ofin a sleepwalking phase, I was
too.
It was really hard.
It's something that I don'tthink any person will ever know
until they're put in thatposition and then they'll
(29:31):
understand.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
That's the thing too, is you know, from what it
sounds like today, a lot ofparents are.
You know, the army has missedits quota the last few years and
the military in general has hada very difficult time
recruiting.
Do you have, on one hand, yes,it's difficult to send your kid
off, it's hard to let go, it'shard to let go, it's hard to let
(30:01):
them grow up, but on the otherhand, you have to, you have to
let them grow up.
So it's a double-edged sword,like I said.
Right, I've heard a lot ofparents and anyone that's
listening to this right now.
If they have a kid that'sthinking about joining the
military, they're going to do it, whether they want to or not.
(30:23):
What would you say to thoseparents?
Speaker 2 (30:34):
well, from my perspective I've been in for 20
years.
Since you made it in and outsafely it's pretty easy for me
to just say turn him loose.
It's like giving a horse somereins let him go.
(30:54):
If it's like giving a horsesome reins, let him go.
If that's what they want to do,then support him, let him go.
It's hard, you know nowhere nearthe same intensity.
(31:18):
But when you're you give thekids keys to the car when
they're 16 years old and theyjust got their license yesterday
and they're going out withtheir friends and they come home
at one or two o'clock in themorning, you worry about them.
You can just kind of take thatintensity of how much did you
worry and multiply it by about amillion times.
(31:42):
That's what it was like whenthe feet hit you around in a
combat zone.
But you have to let them go,just like you have to let them
have them car keys and go out ontheir own.
I can very well remember when Igot my key how stupid I was
when I was 16 years old and Iimagine the kids are pretty much
(32:04):
the same today.
But you just got to take thatchance and let the good Lord
take care of the situation andhope for the best.
I can't say.
There's been times that I'vesaid I wish my son had never
(32:29):
gone through that becausementally I'm not sure.
Like you said, you don't talkabout it a whole lot.
I'm not sure but, like you said, you don't talk about it a
whole lot.
But I know I'm proud of whatyou have accomplished
military-wise and I think, in myopinion, I think it has made
(32:52):
you what you are today.
Without the military I don'tthink you would have been the
same man that you are today.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
I agree, I agree big time.
I tell you what, in that oneyear, in those 11 months, I grew
up a lot.
I grew up a lot.
I grew up, I learned a lot,things that I still, things that
I learned there.
The values leadership-wise thatI've picked up there I I still
(33:20):
use today.
It made that big of animpression on me and I think for
parents out there I'm going tosay this much yes, it's hard to
let go, but I can tell you thismuch right now I have a lot of
family and friends that didn'tjoin the military and they're a
lot worse off than you are and alot worse off than me.
I've gone through drugaddictions, have gone through a
(33:42):
lot of bad things, but I feellike and here's another thing
too I feel like this, and I'mgoing to say this and I don't
want to sound like I'm some kindof hero or something like that
but if my young life at 24,because I do know people that
died over there that were my ageI don't want to die, nobody
(34:05):
wants to die, but if I were tohave, if my number would have
been called at the end of theday, I think that I would have
much rather have been doing thatthan have overdosed in my own
apartment, somewhere, like atthe end of the day, doing
something honorable and goingout, because death, death is the
(34:26):
one thing that's guaranteed foreveryone Everybody.
You're going to die.
One way or another You're goingto die.
I would have much rather havedone it, serving my country,
making my family proud andmaking my community proud, and
it's not something I want.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
But Right, yeah, I think everybody understands that
.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yeah, but I'm just saying like it's you know and
it's I know a lot of folks thatdied young doing less honorable
things, unfortunately.
So it is a double-edged sword.
At the end of the day, it isthe hard right versus the easy
left joining the military.
But if you make the most of it,in my opinion, I think it can
(35:12):
change your character, changeyour life, change your
perspectives overall, because itgets you out from behind the
protection of your parents, theprotection of last time when I
was in Hawaii, you and one ofyour best friends came out to
(35:38):
see me.
You guys came out there for acouple of weeks before I
deployed and I remember, likethinking to myself taking you to
the airport in Honolulu.
I remember thinking to myselflike this might be the last time
and you know I'm leaving herein the next three weeks or so
and I may never see them again.
And that's I'll be honest withyou.
(35:59):
Like even when I deployed, itwas really hard.
I I had a nervous breakdown, II was like stressed out and I
when it.
You know, and it's funnybecause you, you hear these very
, very non-sensitive thingsbeing said where folks will say,
well, that's what you signed upfor.
(36:20):
Yeah, that's what I signed upfor.
It's not easy.
It's still not easy.
I think that's one of the worstthings you could possibly say
to anyone.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Yeah, I think so I think so It'd be the last thing
I wanted to hear from somebody.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
I've heard it before.
I've heard people tell me well,you deployed, it's what you
signed up for, it's probably.
I mean, you're looking for anass whooping when you say
something like that to someonewho signs up to do an honorable
job.
You know Exactly up for to do ahonorable job, you know exactly
so.
But anyways, I, um, I justwanted to put together this
podcast because I know I wantedto capture how you felt during
(37:05):
that time, um, when I had to goto war, when I had to actually
go and stand in line and wait togo into the uh, into the fold
of everything that was, you know, happening back then.
And it was.
It was incredibly difficultbecause everything that we saw
on tv and everything and and itwas, it was real.
I mean, that was everything yousaw on tv was what was going on
(37:29):
.
There was ieds, there wasvehicle born ieds, there was all
kinds of just stupid shit goingon, and that was my reality
while I was over there, havinggone outside the wire multiple
times and even in the capacityof a convoy platoon leader.
I was also very fortunate tohave experienced all that as
(37:51):
well.
I mean, I have a lifetime ofstories to tell, but is there
anything else, dad, that youwant to add to this, this
podcast, specifically talkingabout having a child go to war
and join the military?
Speaker 2 (38:05):
No, I think I can sum it up by saying that and the
feelings at least the ones I had, and I'm pretty sure it's what
many parents have had is feelingis something I can feel,
something I know in my heart,but it's also something I just
(38:31):
don't have any choice, I justhave to take it to my grave
because I cannot explain theworry.
I can't explain that much worryin mortgage.
So maybe me and another parentthat had been through the same
(38:53):
thing, a friend maybe, had a kidgoing through the same thing,
we could talk it over.
But some other than that, it'sjust your feelings, that's what
you got to.
You can't tell nobody.
You can't explain it nobody.
(39:14):
You can't explain it.
I can't explain it to you.
But when you have a kid, go inthe military and possibly put in
the same situation that I wasput in with you, then you'll
start understanding well, I wantto tell you this much that over
(39:34):
the years you served as a rolemodel for me.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
whether you it or not and I know nobody's perfect, by
no means you set a standard forme to live up to when I was a
kid rangers that I ever knew,especially when you took me up
(39:57):
there to East Range there atSchofield Barracks and took me
around your friends and outthere at the air assault school.
That's that's how I grew up.
I grew up as a military brat.
I grew up around the military.
I grew up with all the pros andthe cons and the goods and the
bads that come with that, withthe crazy marriages, the moving
(40:19):
from place to place, you know,never being able to really
establish any good roots.
A lot of young adults todaydon't have a strong male figure
in their life.
Have a strong male figure intheir life and I think that's
one of the biggest problems thatwe have in our country today is
just everyone's mentaltoughness and standards to live
(40:40):
up to.
And I'll say this much likeanytime I ever went through it,
whether it was in training orwhen I was deployed I thought
about you and what you would doin that situation and it got me
through basic training.
Even when I went through mydeployments, man, I would look
up at the stars at night andthink about everybody back there
(41:01):
in Ohio and just wonder if youguys were looking at the same
stars and just thinking abouthey, I wonder if anyone's
thinking about me right now.
So, at any rate, I just want tosay thank you for providing a
good base for me.
I'm completely content withwhere I'm at now and I owe it
(41:21):
all to you, and I just want tosay thank you for being my dad
and thank you for being such astrong role model in my life.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
I don't deserve much credit.
You built your own man and youhave done very well.
I'm very proud when you comehome.
You built your own man and youhave done very well.
We're proud when you come hometo introduce you to my friends
that I've made out here and saythis is my son.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Like I said, nobody's perfect, by no means.
But hey, we all try to do ourbest to make the right decisions
and do the right things.
Overall, I owe it to you tohave the life that I have right
now.
I mean that bottom of my heart.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Thank you.
I'm glad you feel that way.
You're the one that made yourown land.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Dad, I just want to say thank you for sharing your
thoughts about the subject oftoday, which is having a kid
going into the militaryspecifically for war.
I know it's not an easy answer,but I appreciate you sharing it
with everyone and putting itout there.
I'm happy that I can capturethese sort of podcasts with you.
(42:26):
Well, thank you much.
I enjoyed it.
All right, folks Just want towrap this up.
Dad, thanks a lot.
I appreciate your time todayFor everyone out there.
If you haven't subscribed,please subscribe.
Dad, let's wrap this up.
Let's get out of here For folksout there.
As always, I want you to staytuned, stay focused and stay
(42:47):
motivated.
Warriors all out.
Here's fall in.
It's time for formation.
Today.
I have my old man on the otherend of the video and the mic
joining us on the podcast todaybecause I want to talk to him
about something that I thinkwanes on a lot of, a lot of the
minds of parents out there whohave children who decide to join
(00:24):
the military, and it's probablysomething that we didn't really
think about early in 98 when Isigned up to join the Army
National Guard and then later ondecided to go active duty army
Kind of set a course for myselfto be in the military.
And then, of course, September11th happens and then we get
(00:44):
into two huge wars inAfghanistan and Iraq.
And I know that when I got mycommission I knew that at some
point I would probably deploy,but I just didn't know when.
I knew it was inevitable, but Ijust didn't know when that
would happen.
I didn't think it would happenat such a quick pace.
At any rate, Dad, how are youdoing today?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Doing pretty good, massive hop here in Ohio.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
With you being in the military, you've been to quite
a few duty stations and, being asmall-town kid from Kentucky,
what was it like when you werein the military for those 20
years, experiencing the wintersin Germany and the summer
(01:30):
climates in Hawaii andeverywhere else you were at?
I mean because you came from asmall town in the middle of
nowhere, kentucky.
Right yeah, that was your world, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
I thought that was the world.
Well, I didn't think too muchof the cold winters in Germany
and Korea, but I kind of enjoyedsome of the summers in Hawaii.
And I was also stationed downin Cocoa Beach, florida, for a
while believe it or not as aninfantryman, and I enjoyed that
(02:02):
weather down there too.
I just never did care for thecold weather.
I enjoyed that weather downthere too, just never did care
for the cold weather, had enoughof it in Kentucky, fort Knox.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
You spent a good five years down there in Fort Knox
right.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
More than that, I spent five years on drill status
there.
Then I spent a year in aninfantry company they only had
one infantry company on the baseand I spent a year in that
company and I spent a couple ofyears in BRM committee group
what it was called then workingon the rifle range before I
(02:36):
became a drill sergeant.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
I guess you were kind of fortunate because you were
pretty close to home, weren'tyou?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Yeah, I wasn't far, three hours maybe, from home
when I was at Knox.
Actually, I was at Knox.
I came from Germany to FortKnox and I was only there for a
year until I got orders to go toVincent in Italy but my mother
(03:09):
was in the hospital and she wasdying with cancer and I got a
letter from the doctor andhanded in it to the hospital or
somebody at Fort Knox I can'tremember whoever you turn that
kind of stuff into and they gaveme a deferment and I stayed
there for another six years.
I think remember whoever youturn that kind of stuff into and
they gave me a deferment and Istayed there for another six
years.
I think, oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
I didn't know that.
It's interesting.
I um, yeah, you, you were veryfortunate back then.
You were, you know, you weredrafted in 71 during the Vietnam
war and, uh, just due to yourtraining and everything, you
weren't sent that way, but youwere sent the opposite way to
Germany.
The idea of war, I guess, waskind of still remnant in your
(03:56):
mind because you had beenthrough it during Vietnam.
I'm sure you had a lot offriends.
I know we had some familymembers go to Vietnam as well.
Right, yeah, we did.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
We had some people go to Vietnam as well, right, yeah
, yeah, we did had some uhpeople I guess there wasn't
family members, but people thatI went to school with very, very
good friends with.
Uh, three or four of themdidn't make it back from Vietnam
.
So, uh, the people from highschool I knew especially well uh
(04:25):
, didn't make it back fromVietnam.
I knew the.
You know, I was in that bigcity in Northeastern Kentucky
called Moorhead, where MoorheadState University is, and, as a
matter of fact, my best friendthat I kind of grew up in my
teen years with was the veryfirst person from Round County,
(04:46):
kentucky, killed in the VietnamWar.
Then the guy I played footballwith, big old fella, he was
killed over there.
One of my good friends waskilled there but he was killed
by one of his buddies.
It was murder.
His buddy killed buddies and itwas murder.
(05:07):
His buddy killed him in chargeof murder.
And then another guy that was alittle older than me but he was
related to me on 2 Mary waskilled over there.
So I knew a few I didn't makeit back to Vietnam.
A few from a small town likethat is like having a whole lot
(05:29):
from a big town, you know yeah,so it touched the community.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And you went your entire career, for the most part
without having any majorconflicts between 71 and 91.
I mean, we had things here andthere, and we had a few things
here and there, but nothing asmajor as Vietnam or anything
like Iraq or Afghanistan, right?
No?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
nothing real dangerous.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Because even when I went to basic training in 99, we
were still training for theRussians to come over the berm
from the Cold War.
We were doing the whole standtwo thing and everything else,
building the hasty position inthe morning and the whole nine
yards Warfare changed completely, completely to urban warfare
(06:15):
when we went into Iraq andAfghanistan.
I know that when you had mesign up in 98, 99, was the
thought of war even in your mindat all?
Speaker 2 (06:26):
No, it really wasn't.
I had gone for so long withoutbeing in a war.
The United States had gone forso long without being in a war.
I just didn't see it when thewar did start, like you, you
said it was more urban warfarewhich rendered all the training
(06:49):
that I've done for 20 years,rendered it all worthless.
yeah, yeah, it's, it's crazybecause I was ready to go out
and fight in the jungle, youknow, and sneak up, try to sneak
through the dried leaveswithout making noise and stuff
like that.
That wouldn't have been anygood.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
So I signed up for the military in 1998,
technically at the end of 1998.
Went into the National Guard in1999, did four years, went to
college, got my commission,decided to commission.
That was completely for mycountry.
I could have gotten out in fouryears with my bachelor's degree
(07:31):
and walked out and I wanted togo active duty, which is what
you instructed me early on.
You stopped me from goingactive duty right out of high
school.
You instructed me to get mydegree first and then decide if
I wanted to go active duty,which I think is pretty wise,
pretty wise advice.
And I'm glad that you gave methat advice, because had I had
(07:53):
just gone in and enlisted, Iprobably would not have been
able to get my bachelor's degreeback then, Back then.
I mean, now it's a littledifferent, but like you said
before you had said hey, youknow, I remember when I was a,
when I was in charge of folks,you know, if we had something to
do, and then they had college,well, they were going to do what
we had to do first.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Yeah, during that time, the Cold War era, soldiers
signed up for college.
The Army really did and my unitreally did bend over backwards
to try to not interfere withtheir education, the best they
could.
(08:33):
But you know, if a deploymentor something came up, then they
had to put that on the backburner.
But that really wasn't veryoften Right.
We tried to do everything wecould to keep them going to
school yeah, well, I appreciateyou giving me that advice.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Uh, and then so, when I I joined the military, I,
like I said, by this time it was2003, uh, when I got my
commissioning and, um, september11th was well underway, um, in
2001 way, in 2001,.
We were active in Iraq andAfghanistan.
At this time it was pretty hotin Iraq, afghanistan kind of
(09:10):
cooled off a little bit End of2003, fallujah happens, of
course, and then later that yearI deploy to Iraq as a second
lieutenant.
So we're talking about, I amliterally, I'm literally, I'm
literally fish bait in in thescheme of things.
(09:31):
When it comes to the rankstructure of officers, I am like
the bottom, um, but at any rate, at any rate, um, so I, I
deploy as a as, literally, uh,uh, the lowest of low rank for a
commissioned officer, and thenmy job is as a platoon leader
for a transportation platoonwhich, you know, back then there
was a lot of IEDs getting setout, a lot of attacks on the
(09:54):
logistical lines going to andfrom different points on the
main supply routes in Iraq.
Can you talk to me a little bitabout how you felt about your
son now having to go pay hisdues and serve his country?
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Yeah, and I knew you were going to ask that question,
so I've had time to think aboutthat a little bit, thank you,
and I just guess I have to bequite honest.
I thought about when you askedme that question, what am I
going to say?
And I think it's so differentfor everybody as far as I know
that there is really no definiteanswer.
(10:37):
I can't give you a, I can't putin words my feelings.
I guess my feelings, I guessyour feelings, are what you feel
inside and words just don'tdescribe it and make a picture
out of it for you.
But I can tell you that it was atime with the media, the
(11:01):
coverage of the wars and whatwas going on in Iraq at the time
.
It was wars and what was goingon in Iraq at the time.
I've never been so worried inmy life.
I mean, it's just something youcan't describe.
You see what you see on TV andthey try it.
(11:23):
Of course they try to dramatizeit and reach the hearts of the
American people, I guess withthe news.
But I think it did reach thehearts of Americans that were
involved, that had a relative ora child over there involved,
(11:49):
that had a relative or a childover there.
But I'm not really sure, evento this day I'm not real sure,
uh, if the same coverage reachedthe heart of the average
american that didn't wasn'tinvolved in it anyway.
They just I could tell if yougo out and you try to mention,
oh, I got a son in Iraq and he'srunning convoy, oh, that's nice
(12:11):
, what's the weather going to belike tomorrow?
They wasn't really interested.
But for the person, for myself,I can remember just waiting and
hoping every day.
I knew I wasn't going to get aphone call every day, I knew
that.
But I kept hoping and waitingfor that phone call just to
(12:36):
ensure me that everything wasokay.
And you made it through anotherday and it really, really felt
good.
My phone rang and I looked andit was a call from you, because
I knew that gave me another dayand another convoy to worry
about.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I can't imagine what it must have been like, because
at the time you were stillworking, going to work, and I'm
sure the subject came up anumber of times with some of
your co-workers and your friends, who didn't have any vested
interest, and I'm sure that theysaid things that probably hit
you to the bone and might havehit home for you.
(13:19):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yeah, yeah.
Before that, though, I wasworking in a factory and they
couldn't work and talk on thecell phone, so I actually
volunteered to go on third shiftbecause they had less bosses
there, less people to watch you.
So when you called I knew onthird shift I'd be able to
(13:44):
answer the phone, run to thedoor where I could get better
reception and talk to you for awhile.
But, yeah, most people weresympathetic with the soldiers in
Iraq.
From what I noticed, though, itseemed like the women were the
ones that made the comments thatI didn't like, and it was when
(14:10):
I would show them a picture of acatastrophic event that
happened over there, and theywould look at the picture and
they would say why are youshowing that to people?
Why would anybody want to seethat?
And I said, well, becausethat's what our young men and
women that are in Iraq, that'swhat they're doing, that's what
(14:33):
they're fighting for, that'swhat they live with every day.
It's not who would want to seeit.
My thought everybody should seeit.
Everybody in the United Statesshould see the truth over there,
not just what the media pantsand puts on there.
I don't know, maybe it'sbecause women are just more
soft-hearted and what theydidn't want to see some of the
(14:55):
gore and stuff.
But most everybody else that Iknew was pretty sympathetic and
pretty understanding, and mostof them that I cared enough
about to associate with on adaily basis, that I worked with.
Usually every couple of threedays they would ask how you were
(15:17):
doing.
I was happy to say that, as faras I know, everything's still
good.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
It also helps, too, that I worked there for a few
summers right.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah, in fact, some of the people knew me, yeah,
they knew you personally and Iguess they were probably
thinking this is the young manthat used to be here.
It's the same one we're talkingabout that's in Iraq doing his
duty.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
I know that sometimes people can say things that can
be not very sensitive to folksthat are actually feeling the
burden of something like that.
I know you had mentioned thatto me before, but some of the
pictures you were showing peoplewere the pictures and the
videos I would send you right.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, they were the truth.
I knew that.
That's what you saw for real ona database.
And if the soldier, if you andall the other soldiers on active
duty that were stationed overthere, were seeing that every
day, why would I not want peoplehere to see what you're going
(16:21):
through and see what you'reseeing that?
Speaker 1 (16:24):
was my reality, yeah, and I always wanted to.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
That was my reality, yeah, and I always wanted to
make it their reality too.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
You know, and I almost want to say that while I
was there I felt like my mindand my body almost went to a I
don't know.
I guess I could describe it asa sleepwalking phase, because
there were things that happenedwhere I didn't put a whole lot
of thought into it.
But later down the road Ithought about it and I was like
(16:53):
why the hell did I do that?
Like that was pretty dangerousor that was not very smart or
that could have been very.
That could have ended verybadly for me and I plan on
sharing some of those storieslater on.
It's taken me a very long timeto talk about those things
specifically.
The one thing that I've learnedover the years is going back to
a time of your life where youfelt stress and anxiety to a
(17:15):
point where you thought maybethis might be.
It is not easy for someone totalk about.
It's not something that I'veshared with a lot of people over
the years.
So, since having that, thatperspective and having gone
through that situation thatyou've been through, with me
going to war and everythinggoing on in the world right now
(17:36):
I mean the world is on fire.
The world is on fire right nowand it's uh, I don't think a lot
of people are thinking aboutwar, I think I think people are
thinking about war, but they'renot thinking about the idea of
them think a lot of people arethinking about war.
I think people are thinkingabout war, but they're not
thinking about the idea of thembeing a part of it.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
It's more of a spectator sport for a lot of
folks, in my opinion.
I think people see it as kindof like something you watch on
TV but not something that you do.
What are your?
What advice do you have forparents out there that have kids
that are either in right now orplan on going into war or not
(18:14):
war, Going into the military andmight go to war?
Speaker 2 (18:20):
God, it's tough.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
It is, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah, I don't know if I could really give them advice
, except this is what we used tosay in the Army hope for the
best and prepare for the worst.
If you have a son or daughterin the military and they're not
in a combat zone, that's thebest.
(18:45):
But if they go to a combat zone, that's the best.
But if they go to a combat zoneand you see on the news that
the exact location where they'restationed is in heavy conflict,
that's going to be the worst.
That's when the worst will hithome.
That's when you wish that theyhad never joined the service.
(19:08):
I used to think.
I used to sit up at night andwonder how well you were getting
along and what you were doing.
I remember thinkingspecifically why do these
teenagers and young men in theiryoung 20s maybe get Thrown into
(19:32):
combat and doing things thatthey have never done and have to
grow up so fast?
They should.
This is what I was thinking.
I was thinking they shouldleave them home to take care of
the family and and take all theold retirees that spent 20 years
(19:57):
training and getting hard.
Take them over there and letthem do the work.
Send some of them young boysback home.
But you know, I knew thatwasn't going to happen.
I think it's not what happened.
When I got drafted.
They drafted me.
They didn't want some old man,but that's what I remember
thinking almost daily.
(20:19):
Why didn't they take me insteadof him?
Because I've been looking forthis day for a while, I thought.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
There's a lot of veterans and retirees and folks
that serve that feel the sameway as you do and we're asking
that question I had heard thatbefore from other veterans as
well where they wanted to signback up and go in and serve
their country.
I think that overall it's avery difficult question because
(20:54):
you know I was raised in the 80sand 90s where it was God and
country and you know, being anAmerican GI Joe fighting for
what's right, you know youalways think that, hey, if I put
in that position, I'll go servemy country.
But then we end up going tothese wars like Iraq, for
(21:14):
example.
We end up going to these warslike Iraq, for example, and
looking back at that now I'mgoing to tell you as an Iraqi
veteran myself this might be alittle controversial, but even
today I ask myself why was Ithere?
Because I don't know for sure.
I was there for weapons of massdestruction, which none were
ever found, and the country wascompletely destabilized for a
(21:35):
long time.
But I signed up for the militaryto serve my country right, so
it's a double-edged sword there.
Do the right thing for the red,white and blue.
We've had family members in ourown that have served our
country over the years World WarII, and then Vietnam, of course
(21:56):
, that have served our countryover the years World War II, and
then Vietnam, of course, thathave served proudly.
So it's kind of a double-edgedsword, I think, for parents to
hey, yeah, go serve, serve yourcountry, do the right thing.
But on the other hand it's likeare you getting put in harm's
way, unnecessarily or somethingelse?
I think that's what I've cometo, come to my own terms, I
(22:21):
think in the last like 15, 20years or so.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah, I think.
Uh, I learned through my careerthat if that question comes to
mind, you're better off with thequestion of am I supposed to be
here?
Am I doing the right thing?
You're better off just to tryto shove that question off to
(22:51):
the side and don't even thinkabout it.
Try to push it out of your headand listen to what your mission
is, Listen to your superiorofficer and whatever they say.
That's my mission.
I'm doing it because that'swhat I swore I was going to do.
(23:13):
And is it right or wrong?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
You can figure that out later.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Yeah, do that after you get out.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Right, yeah, no doubt I mean I could.
If I was distracted my wholetime there, I would not have
been able to think clearly.
That's actually really wiseadvice, because anytime I've
heard this once that when youget your mission you ask am I,
what am I doing?
Where am I?
Right now, I'm at war.
What am I doing?
I'm fighting this war as asoldier, as a marine, whatever
(23:43):
it is.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Yeah whether it's right or wrong I'm here, right,
right or wrong.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
I'm here.
This is what I gotta do.
I gotta make it, I gottasurvive, I gotta bring everyone
back, that's it.
But yeah, in the last 15 yearsor so I've kind of pondered that
question to myself and, like Isaid, I went into kind of the
sleepwalk phase during that time.
But taking it back to what yousaid earlier, when folks would
ask you about me and they wouldask about where I'm at, did you
ever get annoyed with the ideathat some folks would ask you
(24:09):
where I'm at and then you wouldtell them and then they would go
oh OK, well, that's, that's ina safe area, that's behind the
front lines, that's behind theredcoats.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, everybody thought that for a long time At
least this is an impression Iget.
For a long time everybodythought the only bad place in
Iraq was Baghdad.
If it wasn't in Baghdad, youwas okay.
Where the hell is that place ateither?
I've never heard of that one.
It must be a good place, a safeplace, but that's what seemed
(24:40):
to be to me.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Baghdad was Iraq, that was the war, not Baghdad
yeah, you know, what'sinteresting too was what I found
out later on was I ran into alot of your former NCOs who were
now sergeantors when I was overthere and they looked me up and
down and they saw no Ranger taband they saw that gold bar on
(25:05):
my collar and was like theyasked me what the hell happened
to you.
Your dad was a.
Your dad was a was a Ranger.
It was air assault, all theseother things and a freaking
drill sergeant for five years.
But it was in a joking manner,you know, of course.
But also too, I think what Ifound interesting later on was
(25:27):
to find out that I had like asecond cousin that was involved
in the whole Blackwater ambushand just so happened that you
had worked with him up at EastRange as well for for a few
years.
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yes, it is yeah.
As soon as I saw his name Iknew he was related to your
mother.
We talked and found out he wasa cousin.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
He was from the big Island, right, and then he
retired.
He was a Ranger as well.
He retired and and obviouslydecided to go back into
contracting with blackwater.
Yeah, that's what I understandhere.
Yeah, and he was one of the Ithink one of the three or four
that was ambushed there inpelusia and was hung from the
bridge, um, and burned.
But did you even realize thatat the time when I was over
(26:14):
there?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
No, I did not, not that I recall at that time
anyway, yeah, I don't think theyreally.
I'm not sure You're the onethat told me about it, and
exactly when that was before youwent and after you came back,
I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, I remember the incident and seeing it on the
news but I didn't know he wasinvolved in it.
How would you say that overall?
You know, I didn't know thatyou worked third shift, just so
that you can get my calls.
I want to say thank you forthat, cause it wasn't easy
sometimes calling and and I hadto go to the little phone
station and hope that it wasworking that day, hope that it
(26:55):
wasn't knocked out, but I triedto call you.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
I had my phone number changed too.
You can call Flight PattersonAir Force Base vicinity in
Fairbourn and I had a, I think aSpringfield number I believe it
was a Columbus phone number andI had it changed to a Fairbourn
number that I still have todayand it's been several years ago.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Yeah, there was an area that I used to walk to from
where I was living and I therewas like these field phones that
the that the comms unit had setup.
It literally was like a ODgreen phones that were kind of
under these concrete bunkers.
And I would go there and whenyou picked it up you hit a
button and you could hearwhether there was a tone there.
And I would go there and whenyou picked it up you hit a
(27:38):
button and you could hearwhether there was a tone there.
And so if I heard the tone Iknew, oh, it's working today, so
I could call.
So then I would call right Patand then right Pat would patch
me to you, and so that was oneway.
There was another phone bankthat was on the base but it was
further away from me and, um, Iwas sitting in there one day, I
think I was talking to you andthen all of a sudden the phone
(27:59):
just went out like that, andwhat had happened was a mortar
had landed just outside of that,just outside of that phone bank
, and had knocked out the powercompletely, literally just right
outside.
And I didn't.
I guess when the mortar hit itdidn't explode, but it was just
enough to knock out the powerand then that was it for about
(28:19):
two weeks.
I couldn't call for two weeksafter that, but that's uh, I'm
sure that was a long 11 months.
And during that 11 months, howdo you feel like you feel that
was a long?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
11, a long two weeks when I didn't hear from you too.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
How do you feel like you coped during those 11 months
?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
The same way you did, the way you coped with being in
country and dealing with thewar.
I watched a lot of news.
Every time the news came on Ihad to be there in front of the
TV and see what's going on.
I want to know, I want to knowwhat's going on.
I want to know, I want to knowwhat's going on.
But I was like you.
I was just kind of in thatsleepwalking phase and just
taking everything one step andone day at a time.
(29:08):
I didn't try to overguess andnot do too much thinking at one
time, but I was.
I think I was in that.
I knew exactly what you weretalking about.
When you said you were kind ofin a sleepwalking phase, I was
too.
It was really hard.
It's something that I don'tthink any person will ever know
until they're put in thatposition and then they'll
(29:31):
understand.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
That's the thing too, is you know, from what it
sounds like today, a lot ofparents are.
You know, the army has missedits quota the last few years and
the military in general has hada very difficult time
recruiting.
Do you have, on one hand, yes,it's difficult to send your kid
off, it's hard to let go, it'shard to let go, it's hard to let
(30:01):
them grow up, but on the otherhand, you have to, you have to
let them grow up.
So it's a double-edged sword,like I said.
Right, I've heard a lot ofparents and anyone that's
listening to this right now.
If they have a kid that'sthinking about joining the
military, they're going to do it, whether they want to or not.
(30:23):
What would you say to thoseparents?
Speaker 2 (30:34):
well, from my perspective I've been in for 20
years.
Since you made it in and outsafely it's pretty easy for me
to just say turn him loose.
It's like giving a horse somereins let him go.
(30:54):
If it's like giving a horsesome reins, let him go.
If that's what they want to do,then support him, let him go.
It's hard, you know nowhere nearthe same intensity.
(31:18):
But when you're you give thekids keys to the car when
they're 16 years old and theyjust got their license yesterday
and they're going out withtheir friends and they come home
at one or two o'clock in themorning, you worry about them.
You can just kind of take thatintensity of how much did you
worry and multiply it by about amillion times.
(31:42):
That's what it was like whenthe feet hit you around in a
combat zone.
But you have to let them go,just like you have to let them
have them car keys and go out ontheir own.
I can very well remember when Igot my key how stupid I was
when I was 16 years old and Iimagine the kids are pretty much
(32:04):
the same today.
But you just got to take thatchance and let the good Lord
take care of the situation andhope for the best.
I can't say.
There's been times that I'vesaid I wish my son had never
(32:29):
gone through that becausementally I'm not sure.
Like you said, you don't talkabout it a whole lot.
I'm not sure but, like you said, you don't talk about it a
whole lot.
But I know I'm proud of whatyou have accomplished
military-wise and I think, in myopinion, I think it has made
(32:52):
you what you are today.
Without the military I don'tthink you would have been the
same man that you are today.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
I agree, I agree big time.
I tell you what, in that oneyear, in those 11 months, I grew
up a lot.
I grew up a lot.
I grew up, I learned a lot,things that I still, things that
I learned there.
The values leadership-wise thatI've picked up there I I still
(33:20):
use today.
It made that big of animpression on me and I think for
parents out there I'm going tosay this much yes, it's hard to
let go, but I can tell you thismuch right now I have a lot of
family and friends that didn'tjoin the military and they're a
lot worse off than you are and alot worse off than me.
I've gone through drugaddictions, have gone through a
(33:42):
lot of bad things, but I feellike and here's another thing
too I feel like this, and I'mgoing to say this and I don't
want to sound like I'm some kindof hero or something like that
but if my young life at 24,because I do know people that
died over there that were my ageI don't want to die, nobody
(34:05):
wants to die, but if I were tohave, if my number would have
been called at the end of theday, I think that I would have
much rather have been doing thatthan have overdosed in my own
apartment, somewhere, like atthe end of the day, doing
something honorable and goingout, because death, death is the
(34:26):
one thing that's guaranteed foreveryone Everybody.
You're going to die.
One way or another You're goingto die.
I would have much rather havedone it, serving my country,
making my family proud andmaking my community proud, and
it's not something I want.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
But Right, yeah, I think everybody understands that
.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
Yeah, but I'm just saying like it's you know and
it's I know a lot of folks thatdied young doing less honorable
things, unfortunately.
So it is a double-edged sword.
At the end of the day, it isthe hard right versus the easy
left joining the military.
But if you make the most of it,in my opinion, I think it can
(35:12):
change your character, changeyour life, change your
perspectives overall, because itgets you out from behind the
protection of your parents, theprotection of last time when I
was in Hawaii, you and one ofyour best friends came out to
(35:38):
see me.
You guys came out there for acouple of weeks before I
deployed and I remember, likethinking to myself taking you to
the airport in Honolulu.
I remember thinking to myselflike this might be the last time
and you know I'm leaving herein the next three weeks or so
and I may never see them again.
And that's I'll be honest withyou.
(35:59):
Like even when I deployed, itwas really hard.
I I had a nervous breakdown, II was like stressed out and I
when it.
You know, and it's funnybecause you, you hear these very
, very non-sensitive thingsbeing said where folks will say,
well, that's what you signed upfor.
(36:20):
Yeah, that's what I signed upfor.
It's not easy.
It's still not easy.
I think that's one of the worstthings you could possibly say
to anyone.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Yeah, I think so I think so It'd be the last thing
I wanted to hear from somebody.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
I've heard it before.
I've heard people tell me well,you deployed, it's what you
signed up for, it's probably.
I mean, you're looking for anass whooping when you say
something like that to someonewho signs up to do an honorable
job.
You know Exactly up for to do ahonorable job, you know exactly
so.
But anyways, I, um, I justwanted to put together this
podcast because I know I wantedto capture how you felt during
(37:05):
that time, um, when I had to goto war, when I had to actually
go and stand in line and wait togo into the uh, into the fold
of everything that was, you know, happening back then.
And it was.
It was incredibly difficultbecause everything that we saw
on tv and everything and and itwas, it was real.
I mean, that was everything yousaw on tv was what was going on
(37:29):
.
There was ieds, there wasvehicle born ieds, there was all
kinds of just stupid shit goingon, and that was my reality
while I was over there, havinggone outside the wire multiple
times and even in the capacityof a convoy platoon leader.
I was also very fortunate tohave experienced all that as
(37:51):
well.
I mean, I have a lifetime ofstories to tell, but is there
anything else, dad, that youwant to add to this, this
podcast, specifically talkingabout having a child go to war
and join the military?
Speaker 2 (38:05):
No, I think I can sum it up by saying that and the
feelings at least the ones I had, and I'm pretty sure it's what
many parents have had is feelingis something I can feel,
something I know in my heart,but it's also something I just
(38:31):
don't have any choice, I justhave to take it to my grave
because I cannot explain theworry.
I can't explain that much worryin mortgage.
So maybe me and another parentthat had been through the same
(38:53):
thing, a friend maybe, had a kidgoing through the same thing,
we could talk it over.
But some other than that, it'sjust your feelings, that's what
you got to.
You can't tell nobody.
You can't explain it nobody.
(39:14):
You can't explain it.
I can't explain it to you.
But when you have a kid, go inthe military and possibly put in
the same situation that I wasput in with you, then you'll
start understanding well, I wantto tell you this much that over
(39:34):
the years you served as a rolemodel for me.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
whether you it or not and I know nobody's perfect, by
no means you set a standard forme to live up to when I was a
kid rangers that I ever knew,especially when you took me up
(39:57):
there to East Range there atSchofield Barracks and took me
around your friends and outthere at the air assault school.
That's that's how I grew up.
I grew up as a military brat.
I grew up around the military.
I grew up with all the pros andthe cons and the goods and the
bads that come with that, withthe crazy marriages, the moving
(40:19):
from place to place, you know,never being able to really
establish any good roots.
A lot of young adults todaydon't have a strong male figure
in their life.
Have a strong male figure intheir life and I think that's
one of the biggest problems thatwe have in our country today is
just everyone's mentaltoughness and standards to live
(40:40):
up to.
And I'll say this much likeanytime I ever went through it,
whether it was in training orwhen I was deployed I thought
about you and what you would doin that situation and it got me
through basic training.
Even when I went through mydeployments, man, I would look
up at the stars at night andthink about everybody back there
(41:01):
in Ohio and just wonder if youguys were looking at the same
stars and just thinking abouthey, I wonder if anyone's
thinking about me right now.
So, at any rate, I just want tosay thank you for providing a
good base for me.
I'm completely content withwhere I'm at now and I owe it
(41:21):
all to you, and I just want tosay thank you for being my dad
and thank you for being such astrong role model in my life.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
I don't deserve much credit.
You built your own man and youhave done very well.
I'm very proud when you comehome.
You built your own man and youhave done very well.
We're proud when you come hometo introduce you to my friends
that I've made out here and saythis is my son.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Like I said, nobody's perfect, by no means.
But hey, we all try to do ourbest to make the right decisions
and do the right things.
Overall, I owe it to you tohave the life that I have right
now.
I mean that bottom of my heart.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Thank you.
I'm glad you feel that way.
You're the one that made yourown land.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Dad, I just want to say thank you for sharing your
thoughts about the subject oftoday, which is having a kid
going into the militaryspecifically for war.
I know it's not an easy answer,but I appreciate you sharing it
with everyone and putting itout there.
I'm happy that I can capturethese sort of podcasts with you.
(42:26):
Well, thank you much.
I enjoyed it.
All right, folks Just want towrap this up.
Dad, thanks a lot.
I appreciate your time todayFor everyone out there.
If you haven't subscribed,please subscribe.
Dad, let's wrap this up.
Let's get out of here For folksout there.
As always, I want you to staytuned, stay focused and stay
(42:47):
motivated.
Warriors all out.
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