In this episode of the Multifamily Real Estate Experiment podcast, host Shelon Hutchinson, also known as Hutch the Marine Investor, interviews Michael Pouliot, founder and CEO of Eon Capital Partners and Chief Investment Officer of Carbon. With over $1 billion in real estate acquisitions, Michael brings extensive institutional expertise and a passion for educating future real estate entrepreneurs. The discussion covers a wide range of topics, including Michael's early experiences in real estate, key lessons from his Wall Street career, and his investment philosophy focused on workforce housing and housing-related transactions. Michael also shares his perspective on navigating current market cycles, the impact of tariffs and inflation, and how technology and innovation play roles in property management. Additionally, Michael emphasizes the importance of mentorship and education in raising the next generation of real estate entrepreneurs.
00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
03:05 Michael Pollard's Real Estate Journey
06:09 Lessons from Wall Street
11:19 Investment Philosophy and Market Evaluation
16:21 Navigating Market Cycles and Challenges
21:38 Distressed Assets and Scaling Opportunities
28:02 AI in Property Management
29:14 Educational Content and Mentorship
33:26 Real Estate Strategies and Opportunities
42:21 Aligning Investor Incentives
45:57 Focus Round and Closing Remarks
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Thank you to all of our listeners!!! We would love to hear from you!!!
Email me at:
hutch@hsquaredcapital.com
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www.hsquaredcapital.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael Pouliot (00:00):
With real estate or really any business,
you can create something out ofthin air, based on what suits
you.
And it's gonna take you a whileto get to maybe your ideal state
to, wherever you want to go.
But just know that, just keep onworking at it and, you can carve
out whatever niche isappropriate for you, that you
want, as long as you just keeptaking action and you just, just
(00:22):
keep getting up.
'cause you're gonna get knockedover, quite a bit.
But that's, all part of theprocess.
Yeah,
Hutch The Marine Investor (00:27):
man.
Don't quit and don't die.
Michael Pouliot (00:29):
Don't quit.
you can only lose if you stop.
Hutch The Marine Investor (00:31):
No, a 100%, man.
Welcome on.
Are You Multifamily Enthusiasts?
Welcome to another episode ofthe Multifamily Real Estate
Experiment podcast.
I'm your host, ShalonHutchinson.
If you're in real estate, youknow me as Hutch the Marine
investor.
And look, today we have anexciting guest for uc.
Most of us, we hear this thingabout, um, main Street and Wall
(00:54):
Street and a bunch of a BCStreet and one two Street, all,
all those things, right?
And you tend to hear thosethings as one or the other.
So today we want to capture,capture someone who have
experienced both world, right?
So I'm excited to welcomesomeone that bridge four
(01:16):
Generation of Real Estate Wisdomwith Next Gen Private Equity
innovation.
Michael, Michael Pollard is aCFA and A-C-A-I-A.
He's the founder and CEO of eonCapital Partners and the Chief
Investment Officer of, um, ofCarbon.
(01:36):
It is a, it's a middle market.
Private equity firm, you know,so with over$1 billion in real
estate acquisition and over 1million square feet of office
and mixed use project on thisbelt, and$400 million plus in
housing related transaction,Michael brings some serious
institutional expertise to thisspace.
(01:58):
He is also the host of the DealFlow Podcast, and he's a super
passionate advocate foreducating the next wave of real
estate entrepreneurs, you know,so Michael, I want to welcome
you to this episode of the EYPodcast.
Thank you Hutch, for having me.
I am, I'm excited about this,uh, podcast.
Yeah.
Man.
(02:19):
I am too, man.
So it sounds like you had some,you got a busy morning where you
choose to be here, man.
So we are, we absolute, yeah.
Can't miss out on a podcastopportunity.
Yeah.
I love
Michael Pouliot (02:28):
getting on podcasts.
Hutch The Marine Investor (02:29):
Yes.
So, Mike, I wanna ask you thisfirst question though.
do you have a favorite realestate quote or philosophy or
mantra that drives you?
Michael Pouliot (02:40):
I, I don't know if I have a specific quote that
I could say off the top of myhead that I wouldn't butcher.
but I would say, a philosophy ora mantra would be margin of
safety, which is a BenjaminGraham and I.
philosophy, who, and then thatwas taken by Warren Buffet and,
I think it's, something that alot of people think about, but,
(03:03):
margin of safety when you'rebuying real estate and you're
dealing in real assets, marginof safety is really important.
Whether that's about having goodreserves, about buying at the
right price, about, capitalizingyour deals appropriately with
the right type of debt.
so margin of safety is reallyimportant concept, and I think
if you apply that.
In your acquisitions and in yourmanagement.
(03:24):
you you can weather a lot ofstorms.
Hutch The Marine In (03:27):
Absolutely, man, that, that goes for the
passive investors as well,right?
Mm-hmm.
One of the things that Itypically talk to'em about is
their, their risk tolerance andtheir risk capacity, you know,
us.
That, that's really important.
Okay?
So margin of safety.
Alright man, I appreciate that.
So now I want to dive right intoit, man.
And I want to ask you, look,Michael, you, you, you are a
fourth generation real estateentrepreneur.
(03:47):
Great.
You know, what was it likegrowing up on the job site and,
you know, how did you, how, howdid that shape the way you
operate today, especially nowthat you've worked, you know,
you work with on small projects$25,000, you know, to real large
project, uh,$25 million deals.
I.
Sure.
Michael Pouliot (04:05):
Yeah.
Uh, thanks for that question.
So, uh, yeah, I started, beingfamiliar with real estate, uh,
as a, you know, kind of a daylaborer.
Um, and I would, you know, workon my father's job sites.
My grandfather would pick me up,uh, early, early in the morning
when it was still dark, and wewould go pick up a couple other
folks, um, that were working,you know.
(04:27):
Day shifts basically.
And I would be part of thatcrew, uh, essentially digging
holes and leveling ground andlaying down, um, you know,
plumbing and, um, going and, andgrabbing and goffering around,
like getting toilets and stufffrom commercial outfits.
And, uh, you know, I spent mysummers and my holidays doing
that.
It was great pay, uh, you know,uh, cash, great cash pay, uh, at
(04:52):
that time compared to what Icould get.
From a store, which, you know,at a store or something, I maybe
make four or five bucks an hourabout, uh, doing this.
I could make, you know, 15, 20bucks an hour.
So for me, that was fantastic.
Um, and, um, and yeah, I, Ithink what I.
What I learned from thatexperience was probably that I
didn't necessarily love the, uh,that part of the business of
(05:16):
being on the site and kind ofbeing part of like the, the
ground game.
And, uh, that's, you know, fromthat experience really learned
that I, I.
Had more of a knack for and moreof a, an appetite or interest in
more of the financial side ofthese transactions and really
thinking about hiring the rightpeople to go and do these
(05:37):
projects and executing them witha fine attention to detail.
More of a big picture type ofthinker.
And so I was really thinkingabout how to put these projects
together and then how to findpeople who are more engineers,
more, you know, detail orientedto actually.
Execute the construction, theproject management and things
like that.
Obviously it took time to get tothat point, but, uh, those were,
(05:59):
those were a couple things, uh,that I learned, uh, from, you
know, long days on the job site.
Hutch The Marine Investor (06:04):
So that, that is amazing journey,
man.
Like, you know, planting a seedfor, for something beautiful to
grow.
So you got, you got involved,you know, with the construction
aspect of, of real estate, butalso.
You, you saw a really biggerpicture that, that you can add
a, a ton of value and that kindof brought you to more so of,
the financial world that a lotof people know me.
(06:24):
So you spent some time, youknow, on JP Morgan, you know,
fixed income trading desk and,and consulted for some big heavy
hitters like Goldman, Sach, and,and Merrill.
Right.
So what specific lessons fromWall Street, um, still influence
how you structure your deals andleads in today's environment?
Michael Pouliot (06:45):
Yeah, so yeah, I, I, so yeah, I had that early
experience.
Uh, and uh, then yeah, I wentand then got my undergrad in
finance, uh, in Boston and then.
Was, uh, you know, in, it was,it was, I don't know, it was
kind of before softwareengineering became like the,
maybe the sexy thing to do.
And it, it was still in thisworld, and at least for me and
(07:07):
growing up in the Northeast,that like finance or law, uh,
or, you know, were kind of likethe things to do, uh, at least.
That was what was attractive tome.
And so I went, uh, finance, Iwent into finance and, uh, yeah,
worked on Wall Street, uh, for,uh, mostly in fixed income, uh,
working with ultra high networth individuals to, um, build
(07:30):
their portfolios and, um, helpedthem manage their money, uh,
mostly, uh, for JP Morgan.
Um, and you know, the thingsthat I learned from my Wall
Street career were primarily.
About, uh, a couple things.
So I had a, a number of reallygreat bosses.
I, I don't know that Irecognized them as great bosses
at the time, but now lookingback, I, I feel like I've, I
(07:52):
learned a lot from them.
I think there's a difference,you know, I don't know if I
would call them my friends, butI would call, I learned a lot of
lessons from'em, and, and someof those, you know, one of them
in particular.
Um, you know, was, uh, havinglike an intense level of
paranoia, uh, relative to yourwork product.
Uh, and so we had this sort oftwo strike rule, uh, at JP
Morgan that, you know, if you,you made one mistake in a client
(08:14):
meeting, you'd get, uh, awarning, your second mistake in
a client meeting, you would befired.
And so, um, you know, that levelof standard is something that we
try to instill in, um, you know,our teams, it's a little bit.
It's a little harder now to dothat, uh, with folks.
Um, it, it, it seems, uh, but,uh, but we, you know, we were
(08:34):
held to an extremely highstandard, uh, very high stress
environment.
and just making sure thateverything that we did, there
was a maker checker system toit, that nothing went to a
client without.
Uh, being thoroughly reviewedbecause at the end of the day
that if it's your draft, you arethe one that's responsible for
it.
And so that, whether that's a,you know, an Excel model or a
PowerPoint presentation or a, amemo of some kind, or even just
(08:56):
a statement that you make, uh,that's your draft, that's your
words.
And, and that's important.
Um, and then the second thing Iwould say.
Was around just recognizing, youknow, most of these days that I
had were, you know, 14 hourdays, uh, where I was working,
you know, getting in earlybefore the trading, you know,
before the traders.
So I would be in at seven, uh,and then, um, staying till seven
(09:20):
or eight, but then I had a twohour commute on either side of
my day.
So it was a pretty long day.
And, uh, sometimes that seveno'clock at night became midnight
and that was, you know,definitely, frequent.
Uh, and, but what I learned fromthat was, uh, anything can
pretty much be accomplished, inone day, no matter how long that
day is, especially when you'reworking with computers and
(09:40):
you're putting together, a memoor a presentation or something
like that's in your controlthat's right in front of you.
there's really no excuse toleave the office or leave that
work until it's done.
and, and that was just like arequirement.
So we would get assignments inthe middle of the day and they
had to get completed, by thetime we left because they were
(10:02):
due by the time we got in thenext morning.
So whether you had to stay tilleight to get it done, or 8:00 AM
the next morning, you just hadto get it done.
So the confidence that I thinkthat develops in someone is
really important.
Recognizing that no matter howbig the work effort is, almost
anything, especially if it's inyour control, if it's just a
work product on your computer,it can be accomplished in the
(10:22):
day that you.
Get it started.
and I think that gives you a lotof confidence to be able to go
out there and, get an enormousamount of, work completed if
necessary in a short period oftime.
Yeah,
Hutch The Marine Investor (10:36):
man, that is an amazing point of view
because I think a lot of us, wealways think about we can do
that tomorrow.
Tomorrow.
Tomorrow and, and tomorrow nevercome, you know?
But to your point, you know, I,I've seen a lot too, even in my
own experience, right, where ifI have a timeline, so if the
boss tells me, you know, as a,as a young marine growing up,
the boss tell me, I got thisreport, or I have this, um,
(10:59):
award to write up, and I havelike three weeks to do it, it
will get done in three weeks.
Right?
However, that same award, if youtell me that needs to be done by
the close of business today.
That will be done by close ofbusiness today.
So, and the, the same is trueabout the, the, the goals that
we ex, we established forourself.
Those things that we want, theincremental things we want to
accomplish, if we set it that wewill get, we will get this done
(11:19):
in this timeline, this timeline,this timeline.
And okay, what if we shrink thattimeline and we can ex actually
expedite our goals and we canactually put our life on a
faster trajectory.
You know what I mean?
So.
We, we were talking about, youknow, me submitting my
retirement, um, paperwork, youknow, for 18 months from now.
And, you know, I got 18 monthsto retire.
But however, what if I shrinkthat right?
(11:41):
And all the things that I needto accomplish, I get it done
within six months.
You know, so the next year canbe really focused on that
transition, um, portion, youknow.
So yeah, to your point, man, um,we can get a lot of stuff done
as long as we set.
Short deadlines.
Alright, so I wanna talk aboutsome of the investment
philosophy in deals, man, youknow, so with hands-on
experience in, in everythingfrom, single family home, you
(12:04):
know, to, to millions of squarefeet in office development.
Um, how do you personallyevaluate, um, opportunities, um,
that you're pursuing in today'smarket?
Michael Pouliot (12:16):
Yeah, so, um.
We, so primarily now at thispoint, we, we focus on housing.
Okay.
Uh, so we really think abouthousing and, and primarily
that's workforce housing.
So we're not doing, while we've,I've I've worked on a lot of,
you know, spec luxury homes thatare millions of dollars
individually.
Um.
Right now.
(12:37):
And, and for the last, uh, bitof time, at least the last five
years, really been focused onworkforce housing.
Um, and, uh, whether that besingle family or apartments,
but, but in that space, uh, in,in primarily growing markets,
uh, throughout the UnitedStates.
So if I think about what.
Uh, our philosophy is, or how wethink about making investments,
(12:59):
uh, in that space.
It starts with the area.
So it definitely starts withthe, we're looking at the
demographics of the area.
We're looking at the schools.
We're looking at the crime, thepopulation growth, the migration
trends.
We're primarily looking forplaces that have stable or
improving.
Population, which typicallyleads to or follows job growth.
Um, and then we are alwayslooking for with the types of
(13:22):
properties that we, um, investin properties that have great
schools because we feel that.
Places with great schoolsattract families.
Those families will stay inthose communities through the
duration of their children'seducation.
So you tend to get stickiertenants that want to stay
longer.
Uh, we primarily work in therental housing space, so, but I
(13:43):
would say the same things applyif I was in the for sale.
Space.
I want to be in places wherepeople are moving, where, you
know, a household formation isstrong, those sorts of things.
And, and you know, theavailability of data now you
really can tell exactly what'shappening in real time and, um,
take advantage of those trends.
It's not a guarantee that I.
(14:03):
Just because, you know, we're inan area with good population
growth, that we're gonna have agood investment, but it's a good
tailwind.
Um, and you have to offset thatwith, uh, supply.
So typically what we find is thebuilders, everyone's looking at
the same numbers.
So we're all looking at the samenumbers and say, Hey.
Florida, it's great in Floridabecause so many people are
moving there.
And then builders will build andthey'll all build at the same
(14:26):
time, and then all of a suddenwe've got 10 times as many
houses as we need, right?
So we have to be cognizant of,of what everyone else, uh, you
know, reflexivity, uh, right,like everyone else's behaviors,
uh, and, uh, affect, uh, whatyou should be doing.
Um, and so we're all part ofthis same like system, so you
have to be careful about all ofthat.
But, you know, we're looking atdemos, we're looking at supply,
(14:50):
uh, we're looking at populationgrowth and changes like that.
And then we're overlaying thatwith the, um, you know, how
friendly the area is tolandlords, uh, and tenant, uh,
relationships, uh, how the stateis involved in the, in the
housing sector in that area.
So that typically means thatwe're right now investing.
(15:10):
Uh, in the Southeast as well asTexas.
So kind of going from Texasthrough the panhandle, down to
Florida, mostly from i4, so sortof Disney World North through
the space Coast, up through, um,um.
They're basically all the waythrough to the Carolinas.
Uh, and that would be ourprimary, uh, space.
Although I really do enjoy, uh,and think there's a lot to be
(15:33):
said about the Midwest, uh, Ithink that that's something
that's typically overlooked.
Uh, even though it may not havethe same level of migration
trends or population growth.
It has strong incomes, um, and,uh, a great workforce.
And a diversified economic base.
So, and it has the only freshwater in the United States that
we may have in the next 50years.
So, uh, I think that'ssomething, uh, the Great Lakes
(15:55):
are an asset that we undervaluethat may become more valuable as
the country changes, uh, overtime.
Interesting.
Um, so, um.
Did that answer your question?
That that's happen?
It definitely did.
That's like the beginning.
There's more to it, but we startthere.
Hutch The Marine Investor (16:11):
Oh, no, no, definitely no.
So I, I usually just call it ahype, right?
Um, you know, when you invest,invest in the place, you wanna
look at the hype.
So you wanna look at the, thehome prices growth, right?
You, you want to look at the,the income growth, you wanna
look at the population growth,um, and of course the employment
growth as well, right?
Make sure that thediversification of jobs is
there.
But to you point, man.
Um, the, the market has cycles,right, just like the stock
(16:33):
market has cycles.
The housing market has cyclesas, as well, and it's really
important to pay attention towhat market cycle that you're
purchasing a property in,regardless of what, um, type of
property you're buying.
And also the projection of whatenvironment you're gonna be
looking to sell that asset in.
And also the quality of buyersthat will be available
potentially, um, will beavailable as well, you know?
(16:55):
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, a great, greatphilosophy, man.
So, so navigating, I wanna talkabout some navigating the
current cycles, you know.
In recent years, interest ratesand inflation was a thing.
Now it's tariffs amongst otherthings.
Right.
So if you're a developer, right,and you get in a lot of your
supplies from differentcountries, right?
Tariff might be a concern foryou.
Um, are you seeing or having animpact or projecting an impact
(17:17):
in a real estate developments?
Um, in the, in the coming monthsand years?
Michael Pouliot (17:21):
Yeah, so we find that.
That's certainly a concern, um,relative to projects, new
projects that we're doing right,where we have large budgets,
there's material costs, we aretypically, um, getting our
supplies overseas or if we'renot getting'em overseas
directly, they're certainlycoming from overseas indirectly.
(17:42):
So we will be subject tomaterial costs going up.
Uh, over time, um, but we havesome flexibility as to when we
acquire these materials.
Uh, most of our business plansare multi-year, so we can delay
certain projects to wait forsome of the noise.
Of the political environment to,to change.
Uh, and then again, most of ourbook of business, most of the
(18:04):
properties that we own, they're,uh, not, it's not that they're
not susceptible to thosechallenges, but we just don't
have as much capitalimprovements to make on those
projects, right?
So we don't have to spend themoney and therefore not be so
subject to it.
So yes, maybe we have to replacean HVAC here or there, et
cetera, on a regular schedule,but we don't have a huge amount
of, uh, budget to, to allocate.
(18:25):
So when we have new projects.
That's where it's mostconcerning or most affecting us,
is if we have a double ofmaterial cost that's gonna
affect our project cost by 10%,20%, which may eat up all our
contingency, but that alsoassumes that we actually move
forward with a hundred percentof the materials at this exact
time versus, you know, um,linearly acquiring them over the
(18:47):
next couple years.
So that's, you know, we, we havea few different strategies that
we can use to do that.
We can also stockpile you know,stuff that's already here.
Yeah.
Put them in containers, we can,you know, there's a substitution
right of materials.
If we thought, hey, this isgonna be a lot, this is gonna be
30% cheaper, all of a sudden itbecame 30% more expensive, we
(19:07):
can go back to the originalplan, which would've been just
to buy from North America, forinstance.
That makes sense.
Which again, I think is part ofthe.
Maybe perhaps the goal of someof these tariffs is to get
people to, uh, substitute, uh,uh, a good that maybe isn't a,
from another country to, uh,somewhere that's maybe closer to
home.
Um, and, um, so some impactthere.
(19:30):
Uh, outside of tariffs, I wouldsay that, I was just talking to
a broker yesterday and he wastelling me about, um.
Kind of what the composition ofbuyers looks like today.
Uh, you know, I think that themarket is starting to change.
Mm-hmm.
There was a time in 21, 22 whereyou had the syndicators and a
(19:51):
lot of hot money were biddingprices up, uh, doing deals that
potentially unstable orunsustainable valuations.
Uh, those folks obviously are,or maybe not obviously, but are
not necessarily big buyers intoday's market.
Uh, and, and the liquidity wasvery thin for quite a while.
There wasn't a lot of buyers forproperty and there weren't a lot
(20:12):
of sellers either right after,after 2022, and, you know, the
last 24 to 36 months, it's beennot a lot of buyers, not a lot
of sellers, or at least maybethere were buyers and sellers,
but they could never, they couldnot agree on price, right?
Of what, what the price shouldbe.
Um, and so now what I'm seeingand what I'm hearing from the
brokerage community is over thelast six to 12 months, some of
those folks that were big buyersin the 2015.
(20:36):
2018 space are seeingopportunity and they're starting
to come back.
Right?
And those are buyers that werein the business for 10, 15, 20
years, right?
They weren't new to the game in2015, but they had longstanding
relationships with these biggerbrokerage houses and they just
stopped buying as.
Prices moved up in 2020 and2021, and now, uh, they're
(20:59):
starting to come back.
They're starting to see value.
They're starting to think maybewe're at peak cap rates and, and
cap rates are gonna startfalling, and we're seeing
positive leverage.
And so you're seeing the.
The programmatic investors arein the, in the market.
They're always in the market bydefinition, you know, uh, buying
or selling based on their fundmandates.
Then you have, you're startingto see these family offices and
(21:20):
these longer term holders comeback and provide liquidity into
the market.
And so, uh, it, it feels very,and, but at the same time,
you're also still dealing with.
Almost the first wave ofdistress from the 2021, 2022
debacle.
So a lot of the, you know,properties that need to have a
reset of basis are that's gonnahappen.
(21:42):
Either it happened last year orthis year, or next year.
So that's sort of cresting.
And the new cycles beginning.
And I think we're probably, youknow, in the first third of the
game here, uh, which I think isa great opportunity for people
who are well capitalized, uh,have, you know, high conviction
to go out and acquire propertyeven despite all of the, you
(22:03):
know, noise that there is inthe, uh, political environment,
the economic environment.
As long as you're in it for thelong term and you're, uh,
considering margin of safety, asI mentioned in the beginning.
Hutch The Marine Investor (22:13):
Yeah, that's awesome, man.
Which leads me to the nextsegment, which is, you know,
innovation distress and, youknow, scaling opportunities,
right?
So you have done hundreds ofmillions in housing related
transaction, you know, with thefocus and distress, you know,
turn and turnaround deals.
You know, what is the biggestmistake investors make when
chasing distressed assets andhow do you avoid them?
Michael Pouliot (22:33):
Yeah, so I think it's right there in the
sentence that you said, um, youcan't really just, uh, uh, chase
distress deals, right um, yousort of let them hang
themselves, uh, and let thembleed out.
Uh, and then they are just therefor the picking.
So I think it's about developingrelationships with those who are
closest to those deals, whetherthat be lenders, uh, possibly
(22:54):
property managers, or even othersponsors who may be in a rough
position.
Uh, we found that a strategythat we're employing right now,
uh, that we've been trying toemploy for the last 18 months,
but we've been early, uh, butit's now starting to come to,
um, you know, come, come tofruition.
Uh, is start, start, you know,having conversations with
sponsors who.
Did perhaps buy at a pretty highprice and and have debt that.
(23:19):
Uh, is too expensive and, andhas too high of a basis and come
into those deals and, andreplace those sponsors.
Bring in some fresh capital,renegotiate with the lenders.
Uh, and so that's what we'restarting to see.
Uh, a lot of, I think existingsponsors are realizing that
rates are not gonna go downsignificantly.
They're not gonna see a 20%increase in the value of their,
(23:40):
of their properties.
Uh, now, basically right now,uh, or over the next 12 months,
and they're just ready tocapitulate and move on from the
project.
And so, um, and that, you know,that requires some tough
conversations with thosesponsors, with the, with the
debt holders.
Um, and so we're having thoseconversations right now.
(24:00):
Across a number of differenttransactions in different areas
with either the current sponsoror the lender, depending on how
far along the process has gone.
Right.
Uh, and seeing how we can comeinto that opportunity.
We're vertically integrated, sowe have our own property
management company, and so wecan come in, we can take over
the day-to-day operations.
We can, we have a discretionaryfund, so we can bring in and,
(24:23):
uh, write a check to, um, youknow.
Deal with deferred maintenance,things that maybe the existing
sponsor couldn't do becausetheir debt restricted them from
taking on additional, you know,draws.
So then we could recover theasset operationally, take over
the property, wipe out theexisting gp, maybe hopefully
recover some of the LP dollarsfrom the old transaction.
(24:44):
Uh, and then also make thelender whole.
So, uh, I don't think everyonecomes out feeling great about
the how it goes, but we have tomove on from the.
Those transactions into a bettermarket environment.
Um, and, and I think that's partof what's happening right now.
Hutch The Marine Investor (24:59):
Yeah.
I think it's, it'd be reallycool if everyone had a crystal
ball back in, you know, the2019, 2020.
Right.
You know, because I think we hada lot of good operators.
Just maybe their long-termprojection or midterm projection
was not consistent with whatreally happened in 2021, 2022.
You know, so, you know, to yourpoint, these properties are in a
(25:23):
lot of cases are really goodproperties in good markets with
good fundamentals, right?
However, because of the increasein debt and the inability to
refinance these property in atraditional sense, it makes it
really challenging for theproperty to cash flow and then
additional to not having cashflow.
They're not able to execute thebusiness plan, which drag on
(25:45):
their reserves.
Right.
And when you start bleeding allthe reserves, then you come to a
point where it doesn't makesense to hold onto this property
and they find somebody who canprovide, um, new capital to
revitalize that business plan.
You know?
So it's a great idea.
So you mentioned that you fund,right, which lead me to my next
question, right?
As a fund manager and, you know,tech enabled operator, you know,
(26:05):
how do you think about, youknow, buying versus building?
Operation infrastructure toscale.
And what role does ProTech playin your decisions?
Michael Pouliot (26:15):
Yeah, so, um.
I, uh, my, my business partnerat Carbon Cody, uh, is really
responsible and spearheaded our,our vertical integration
building on our propertymanagement division, our
construction, uh, division, uh,so that we could take over these
assets and we found that I.
Just by taking over assets, our,our properties from our third
(26:37):
party managers to bringing themin house, uh, within six months
we see a 20%, 30% lift in theproperty performance.
Just because we control, theincentive structure, uh, we
ensure that the right people onthe right seats, we can be more
proactive in hiring and renewalsand, um, doing just a number of
different things that.
That we want to be able to do,uh, that we may not be able to
(26:59):
do or influence through a, uh, athird party who has slightly
different incentives than we do,uh, potentially, um, in, in some
cases.
So, uh, I think they do theirbest.
They work, uh, as agents andthey, you know, have their own
incentives.
And so, you know, we, we, Ican't blame them for being, uh,
you know what they are.
Uh, but we find that, you know,our first foremost, most
(27:21):
important thing is that we haveto protect the money that we
bring, uh, into the deals fromour LPs.
Uh, they're our, one of ourprimary customers that them and
the tenants.
And so it's really importantthat we do our very best to, uh,
oversee and, and run thoseproperties.
And we feel like.
First party management, ifthat's a term, uh, makes a lot
of sense.
And so to that end, you know,there are several PropTech
(27:43):
things, I guess, uh, we'redoing, uh, I mean I, you know,
we're using, uh, voice andtext-based ai, um, where, where
it's appropriate.
Um, so that would look like, um,primarily.
When there's off hours.
So people are still moreinterested in talking to a
(28:03):
person, right.
If they can.
But if we're not in the office,then they'd rather talk to a
robot or text with a robot thanto get no response at all.
That makes sense.
So the speed to lead is always acritical component of every
sales process.
We think of our, you know, salesis very important, right?
You want to.
Lease new units.
You want to get better andbetter pricing.
(28:24):
You wanna provide an excellentcustomer experience along the
way.
And so if we can provide 24 hourcustomer service, whether
that's, you know, eight hours aday with our people and then
another 16 hours for folks usingrobots, then we'd love to do
that.
And it's very cost effectiveand, and very effective for us.
So that's how we do that isprimarily through text and
voice-based ai, uh, eitheranswering the phones.
(28:47):
Dispatching phone calls outusing robots or texting.
Uh, and then the same with, uh,R&M, so maintenance requests,
things like that.
That's all digital.
So as much as we can put, um,you know, digital, reduce
friction, allow for seamlesscommunication and constant
updates.
Yeah.
Making sure our tenants and ourresidents are.
(29:07):
Aware of what's happening, um,at our community, uh, when rent
is due, when a repair is goingto occur, those sorts of things.
That's all very important.
Outside of that, you know, it'sstill very much a physical
business, so there's only somuch that we can do.
Uh, you know, I guess eventuallywe'll have, uh, Android robots
walking around doing landscapingand, uh, cleaning the pool and
(29:29):
things like that.
But for now, I'd say most of theAI PropTech execution is a,
around the software and theleasing and the maintenance
requests, that sort of thing.
Hutch The Marine Investor (29:42):
I got, I got you, man.
And a lot of folks will becoming to your point, a lot more
used to, you know, dealing with,with AI to get them to, to, to
accomplish your thing, you know?
So next segment I wanna focuson, you know, education and
mentor, you know, and lifting upthe next generation of
entrepreneurs, especially realestate entrepreneurs.
So you give away a ton ofeducational content, you know,
which, which is rare forsomeone.
(30:03):
Um, it's usually rare.
right.
However, that's actually one ofthe things I like about real
estate environment is that insome cases we become more core
competitors than we arecompetitors, you know, so.
Um, why is it so important toyou, or, I mean, to understand
why it's important to you andwhat's your message to Aspire,
(30:25):
um, real estate entrepreneurslooking into 2025 and beyond?
Michael Pouliot (30:30):
Yeah, thanks.
So, um, you know, we have a, uh,uh, well, through our, uh,
private equity firm we put outweekly.
Blogs on a number of topics thatare, that affect the real estate
business as well as we have aweekly newsletter.
I do a daily podcast.
You mentioned one of them, whichis the Deal flow podcast, right?
That's a interview style likethis one that we do weekly, but
(30:53):
I also have a daily news podcastthat I do that's a short five to
10 minutes every single day, uh,on commercial and, and
residential news among otherexecutions that we try to
provide value.
To our, our, you know.
Listenership or readership orwhatever you wanna call it.
Yeah.
Uh, but again, most of that isfocused on LPs that can write
(31:15):
fifty, hundred, you know,million dollar checks.
That's, you know, a very smallsegment of the population.
And so, um, we also have acommunity free community called,
uh, inside of school called theDeal Maker Fast Track Free
Community, where we provide, uh,uh, endless.
Maybe not endless, but asignificant amount of resources
to help people, uh, gettingstarted, going from that zero,
(31:38):
uh, to that first deal.
Uh, and not necessarily bywriting us a check, but by going
out there, finding the deals,analyzing the deals, and
profiting from those deals,whether that's through
wholeselling, right, flippingcontracts, or if it's flipping
and flip, uh, fix and flipping,or if it's turning, uh,
properties into rentals.
My first property was a$25,000single family home row home in
(32:00):
Philadelphia.
Uh, using the BUR strategy.
And even though, yes, now we'redoing$25,$50 million
transactions, I'm still usingthe Bur method.
I'm still, it's the sameframeworks.
It's the same concepts just withanother zero or another.
Few zeros on it.
Um, and so I, I think that, youknow, everyone has to start from
(32:20):
the beginning.
And so our goal with thecommunity is to get people, uh,
involved in real estate.
It's definitely changed my life.
It's allowed me and my my familyto, uh, you know, have the life
that we want.
We live in Boulder, Colorado.
Uh, get to enjoy the outdoorsand, uh.
Talk to you, uh, which is great.
And, um, and so I wouldencourage anyone who is just
(32:41):
getting started or just wants tolearn more about real estate,
uh, to, you know, uh, go outthere and educate yourself,
whether it's in our community orsomewhere else.
It doesn't much matter.
The information is out there.
Knowledge is not the barrieranymore.
We, you know.
Even if you just wanted to useChat gpt, you could get all the
basically the same informationoutta chat gpt as you could get
in my community.
It may be that we organize it,hopefully, I, I hope we organize
(33:04):
it in a way that's impactful forpeople.
Right.
But, uh, something I say, we, werun a live workshop every other
week and I'm, this is, I.
Actually our fifth, our lastday, I have to, after this, I'm
gonna go do day five of, ourworkshop.
But I say knowledge withoutaction is useless.
goals without action are wishes.
Yep.
so you really have to thinkabout, it's not the knowledge
(33:24):
that's the gap anymore.
in today's society with all ofthat's available, you have to
take that knowledge.
You have to get out of, learningmode at some point and go out
there and, swing a hammer or,Buy something or, have a
conversation with a person.
and that's where businesshappens.
That's how real estate happens.
It doesn't happen in a workshopnecessarily, or in a, digital
(33:45):
community.
You have to maybe start therefor a little bit, but you gotta
get out of those communitieseventually and, go take action.
So that's our message inside ofour community, is go out there
and take action.
and most of what you'll learn,is gonna be from, doing that.
Hutch The Marine Investor (34:01):
That is awesome, man.
Now, here's the thing.
And the same, conversationtowards, sharing knowledge.
So you talked to, you've spokento brokers sponsor, PropTech
leaders on the Deal Flowpodcast.
Can you tell us, briefly aboutone conversation that completely
reshaped the way you think aboutreal estate?
Michael Pouliot (34:21):
I.
Completely.
That's a big, that's a big,maybe not completely, but Okay.
Not completely.
Okay.
Improved.
I spoke with a guy, early on andI, so just last week I was
talking to this, one of thestudents.
Uh, they wanted to start doingland flipping.
Uh, and I've got some friendswho are in the, like the land
business.
And I did a podcast with a guy,uh, based outta Florida, uh,
(34:43):
earlier this year, uh, that isdoing this at scale.
And, uh, you know, I just,listening to him, uh, it's just,
uh, interesting to see thatthere's so many opportunities
out there to create.
Any size business in real estatethat suits you.
And I think that was somethingthat was interesting to me is
just, you know, whether you'rejust starting out or this
(35:05):
particular gentleman was, youknow, had 3000 units of
development going at the sametime and over all these
different projects.
He was doing these land dealswhere he would put them under
option and then he'd find abuilder and he would take his
equity and roll it into the dealand.
He was just doing it at a veryhigh level and, you know, big,
big projects, um, 50, hundredmillion dollars each.
(35:26):
And, um, he was able to do, youknow, a lot of these projects at
the same time.
'cause he wasn't actually doingany of the physical
construction.
He was sort of just like puttingthe deals together and kind of
putting the different piecestogether, the engineers and the
surveyors and then the sponsorsand the equity and, and then
just getting a little piece ofthe deal by putting it all
together.
And I thought it was just reallygreat because he.
(35:49):
Was, uh, he was such a dealmaker himself.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, but he'd been workingon it for 15 years, right?
He didn't, he didn't, you know,in a, in a year or in a month
get there doing it at thatscale.
So I think it's just, you know,with real estate or really any
business, you can createsomething out of thin air, based
on what suits you.
And it's gonna take you a whileto get to maybe your ideal state
(36:11):
to, wherever you want to go.
But just know that, just keep onworking at it and, you can carve
out whatever niche isappropriate for you, that you
want, as long as you just keeptaking action and you just, just
keep getting up.
'cause you're gonna get knockedover, quite a bit.
But that's, all part of theprocess.
Yeah,
Hutch The Marine Investor (36:29):
man.
Don't quit and don't die.
Michael Pouliot (36:30):
Don't quit.
you can only lose if you stop.
Hutch The Marine Investor (36:32):
No, a 100%, man.
So, you know, um, that leads usto getting towards the end of
this podcast.
And before we get into the focusround, I've got two more
questions I want to ask you,man.
And it's about real estate intoday's right.
So the contrarian play, right?
What is one real estate strategyor niche that you think a lot of
people are not paying attentionto?
(36:53):
That it has massive potentialover the next 12 to 18 months?
Michael Pouliot (36:59):
Yes.
So, uh, it's almost like youYeah.
Like, we did not plan thesequestions.
In fact, did not, I had saidthat.
I don't wanna know what thequestions are in advance, but I,
uh, because I just like to saywhatever I think at the moment.
Right.
And so, so for this particular,we recently did a, uh, an
article, I think earlier thisyear.
I can't remember exactly thedate.
Um, talking about the perceptionof vintage, uh, plays in
(37:21):
housing.
And so right now we're seeing alot of.
Folks move away from 60s, 70s,and 80s vintage properties,
right?
Yep.
And move into nineties, twothousands and two thousands,
tens because they're looking atthose and they're saying, well,
they're getting older.
You know, there's a lot ofsponsors got burned because they
didn't think about the plumbingand the electrical and the
(37:42):
roofing issues that you canencounter in those older
properties.
And so, as someone who's donethousands and thousands of
units.
In that vintage, I think thatnow is actually a fantastic
opportunity to take advantage ofwhat I see as a big discount for
that perception risk.
So it's not an actual risk.
You're paying a lot more rightnow to buy newer property on a
(38:04):
price per square foot basis.
On a revenue basis.
On just on the, on theperception.
That newer is better, and Idon't necessarily know that
that's the case, especially ifyou do a great job on your due
diligence, you ensure that thatplumbing is in good shape, that
electrical's been upgraded, andyou know your product is in a
good position because thoseproperties still have to house
(38:25):
the workforce Housing ofAmerica, right?
Mm-hmm.
The people.
Are not, a lot of people are notable to afford$2,000,$800 rents.
You need to have a product outthere that provides$800 to$1,400
product, and that product is the70s and 80s vintage.
So right now we're findingopportunities where we can buy
those properties at the sameprices as we could in the middle
(38:47):
2010s, uh, price per squarefoot, but incomes are 50%
higher, revenue is 50% higher.
And so we're finding a lot ofopportunities there.
We're able to get a really greatcash yield out of those
properties.
And we don't have to competewith all of these other, uh,
folks that are all sort of onthe same bandwagon of, Hey, I
want to go up vintage.
(39:08):
So, uh, I think there's a,there's a strong, uh,
opportunity now.
As the market shifts, as we getto a hotter phase of the market,
that perception discount, uh,gets eliminated and people don't
care as much about vintageright?
When the money gets really hot.
We did a kind of a study on thisand we found that.
Um, you know, a lot of thatperception discount goes away
(39:28):
when the, the market gets reallyhot, like 2021.
Mm-hmm.
And so during those times,that's when you actually want to
go to the newer vintage becauseyou're not paying up for that
vintage relative to the oldervintage.
Uh, but when the market iscooler like it is today, uh,
there's a significant discountthat's not explained by.
(39:48):
Expenses, NOI revenue or anyother financial metric, it's
completely based on theperception and the flow of
funds, uh, and the herdmentality.
And so we're looking to, youknow, try to go against that.
And, and that's what we're doingnow,
Hutch The Marine Investor (40:02):
now that, that is a unique
perspective, man.
'cause, um, myself, as asyndicator, um, we are focused
on buying newer properties aswell.
But I, I definitely see yourpoint as far as, um, all the
vintage properties, right?
Plus also, you know, in, intoday's.
Uh, environment, there's so manynew properties coming online,
right?
Um, that, that in some cases itmakes more sense to buy those
(40:26):
property.
Reason being is that you'redealing with less, um,
operational risk, and it's alot, lot easier to manage
because you're not dealing withall the upgrades and upkeep,
right?
So for, for the new event, buthowever, when you look at a, a
value based, um, investment, youknow, some of those older
vintage property is definitely agood play.
Michael Pouliot (40:42):
So one more point I would say is like, uh,
some would, I, I think thatthere's a, a reasonable, uh,
barbell strategy where you canlook for those attractive, newer
opportunities.
Especially the ones where youhad sponsors who made new
developments.
They're busted now and you canbuy them at a really good price
relative to replacement costs.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm not suggesting that thoseproperties aren't a good buy,
(41:04):
but I think people should justbe, uh, aware that there is a.
There's a discount you cancapture for older property that
is not apparent, uh, in themarket.
And what we look for when Ithink about margin of safety,
uh, is we look less on the goingin cap rate because what a lot
of people will say is, well, thegoing in cap rate for both of
(41:24):
these sets of properties arebasically the same, right?
I can get a six cap to a six anda half cap for a 70s vintage as
I can for a 2010 vintage.
Well, why would I buy an olderproperty, the same cap rate as a
newer property?
And I think the answer that we,we come out to is I can get that
70s vintage up to an eight capmm-hmm.
Through a value add.
Whereas the, the newer property,I may only be able to trend that
(41:47):
up to a six and a half, to a 675 or maybe a 7.
Right.
And so for us, we look at, okay,what is that yield on cost in
year four year five.
Um, and how do I feel about thatbasis?
Uh, right, because that 70svintage property, I might be at
an eight cap and only be at$120,000 a door, uh, in four or
(42:09):
five years.
All in that newer property.
You may only get up to a six anda half, maybe a seven cap, and
be at$250 to$300 a door all in.
And then I may be competingwith.
New construction or, you know,uh, maybe more difficult to
cover my expenses or see revenuegrowth.
So that's what I look at is,hey, if I could be at 40 cents
(42:29):
the dollar relative toreplacement cost, be it an eight
cap, which should besignificantly above the market
cap rate, I.
And, and the financing rate.
I feel pretty secure as a long,and I'm also a long-term holder.
I'm also looking to like, if Ican never sell, so I also just
never want to sell.
Um, and so I'm only selling ifmy investors are essentially
(42:50):
requiring it.
Um, and uh, so, so yeah.
So that would be the one otherpoint I would make about that
Hutch The Marine Investor (42:56):
man.
To your point, we didn't planthis podcast, but my next
question is actually about, youknow, fund strategy, right?
So how do you think aboutaligning investors' incentive
inside your fund structure,especially with LPs looking for
income and growth.
Michael Pouliot (43:11):
Yeah, so income, we are right now and,
are, always looking at cashflow.
Cashflow is king.
We, um, you know, and, and mostof the deals that we're doing
today either are, uh, loanassumptions where we're having
really strong yield going in, orthey're gonna be turnaround
strategies, uh, where we'retaking over deals like I had
mentioned before.
(43:31):
Those deals not a lot of cashflow to start.
Right.
Gotcha.
We're coming into a deal withlow occupancy, we typically have
to make some sort of operationalimprovement, but we're gonna get
to what we think is a muchhigher double digit cash on cash
by year three or year two even.
Um, for the deals that are morestable, where we're taking an
assumption on, uh, or, or evennew debt, we're looking at.
(43:53):
For new debt, we're probablylooking at that 5% yield right
out of the gate.
And then when we're taking on anassumption right now, we're
typically seeing almost doubledigit cash on cash yields right
into the deal, or certainly bythe end of year one.
That's how we're thinking aboutyield in today's environment and
we're doing that through agencyfixed rate debt, long term, five
to seven year money, primarily,uh, with the expectation that
(44:17):
we're gonna refinance that.
At that end of that term and,and continue to hold that asset.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so far as growth, again, wefeel like we're buying at really
good basis in today's market.
Wherever we are on the vintagecurve, whether it's an older
asset or a new asset, we feellike, you know, five years
forward we're gonna be reallyhappy about the prices we're
paying for properties, uh, intoday's market relative to a few
(44:40):
years ago or even 10 years ago.
Um, so.
That is how we're thinking aboutmargin of safety and growth, uh,
is really, hey, we think we'regetting a great value today.
From a price per doorperspective, we're getting paid
to carry the asset on a month,on a yearly basis through
positive cash flow.
Uh, and then so far as holdperiod, we are long-term
(45:02):
holders.
We tell our investors, weunderwrite and show a 10 year
model in our underwriting.
So we don't show a five yearmodel.
Um, in our, in our.
Pitch decks or our materials,we're showing a 10 year model.
Um, and what we'll tellinvestors are, or is, uh, that,
you know, when we get to the endof our first maturity rate,
whatever piece of debt thatlooks like, we're going to
(45:22):
assess the market.
If we feel like we can get areally strong exit at that
point, we will, uh, you know,look at that, we'll talk to
investors, we'll see what theirinterests are, and we will no
matter what, likely 10 31 thatinto the next opportunity.
Or recapitalize that deal withnew investors who want to stay
in.
So, uh, from my perspective, aproperty I own, I know a lot
(45:44):
more about than a new propertyI'm gonna buy.
So if I know I'm in an assetthat I like, then I'd rather
hold that asset for the longterm.
And if the investors wantliquidity, we can provide that
liquidity without losing controlof the asset.
So I see the asset and the, um,the equity as two separate
things, and I can hold theasset.
While still providing liquidityto the investors through a
(46:05):
refinancing or a, uh, you know,they can get taken outta that
deal and put into another deal,and we can bring new investors
into that.
Uh, first, you know, that firstopportunity with the
recapitalizations, there's a lotof things we can do inside of
the capital structure withoutnecessarily losing control of
the asset.
Hutch The Marine Investor (46:22):
Man, that is, that's phenomenal, man.
You have multiple exit strategy,which is really good for
investors.
Now man, I wanna be mindful ofyour time.
I've got a couple more minutesleft here before we have to go
prep for your live events.
And I, I want just dive into thefocus round, which is just focus
acronym.
Okay?
What do you do for fun whenyou're not managing capital and
recording podcasts?
Michael Pouliot (46:45):
we're, running live workshops or, doing
coaching calls?
Yeah, I would say, I, everymorning, I for a walk for about
two hours before my family wakesup and I live, in Boulder,
Colorado, right, next to theFoothills So I get a great view
and.
These last couple weeks, there'sbeen like a herd of, deer that
(47:05):
have been grazing right near myhouse.
And so every day I get to seethem, doing their thing and I
get to walk by before the suncomes up.
So I would say that's, exercise,hiking, that sort of thing,
getting outside, getting awayfrom my computer and all of
these, things that are buzzingaround me.
Hutch The Marine Investor (47:22):
Man, that, that is cool.
I just returned from Australiaand they had kangaroos.
Over there walking around likedeer.
I thought it was weird.
I thought I had to go to the zooto see kangaroos.
You gotta be
Michael Pouliot (47:30):
careful, right?
You gotta be careful.
One of them might punch you inthe face or whatever.
Or kick you in the face.
Hutch The Marine Investor (47:35):
So we went close, take some pictures,
but they were actually morescared of us than they trying to
fight.
Okay.
Alright.
There you go.
So the, oh, opportunities, man.
What, was one, career definingopportunity that changed your
trajectory?
Michael Pouliot (47:51):
You know, it's always really hard, uh, to
connect the dots on the, youknow, going, you know, forward.
Right?
You only really see'em on theway back.
Right.
So I met my wife, senior year ofcollege.
And my intention prior tomeeting her, was I was gonna
fly, I was gonna go to SoutheastAsia and teach English and
travel.
I.
(48:12):
and backpack throughout, Europeor whatever.
And, that probably would'vetaken me off of the path that I
was on, which was ultimatelylanded me at JP Morgan.
And then, into consulting andinto real estate.
It's like the butterfly effect.
And I was, I met my wife abirthday party, that was a
friend of a friend.
I was almost not gonna go.
(48:33):
And so the fact that I managedto get off the couch that night,
to go to that party.
Meet my future wife.
and, and then, progress throughthe next 15 years.
I think that was, that wasprobably the most defining,
point of my life, was meeting mywife and, going to that party.
(48:53):
and, that one thing changing.
I probably would be in a totallydifferent place.
I.
I don't know if that wasbusiness related, but that's
awesome because
Hutch The Marine Investor (49:00):
it, set the foundation for almost
everything else and to, to ushaving this conversation at this
point about an amazing business.
And we're happily
Michael Pouliot (49:06):
married now when we're three kids in fourth
on the way, coming here in July.
So we're, busy.
Busy
Hutch The Marine Investor (49:12):
man.
Congratulations, man.
So we got three more questionsfor focus round.
We got what?
Two minutes to do it?
Less than two minutes.
Okay.
Michael Pouliot (49:18):
Alright.
Hutch The Marine Investor (49:19):
Now so communication.
what's your number one rule whencommunicating complex deal to
investors?
Michael Pouliot (49:26):
yeah, we have a one pager and we have a pitch
deck.
Okay.
and I, we try to come up withthe three to five most important
things that we feel like, aregonna resonate with investors
when we put those front andcenter.
Hutch The Marine Investor (49:36):
Keep it simple.
All right.
What is one thing you wish morepassive investors understood?
before placing capital?
Michael Pouliot (49:45):
Real estate is a long game, and you should not
expect to double your moneyevery two or three years.
Hutch The Marine Investor (49:51):
Last one to what do you attribute
your success?
Michael Pouliot (49:55):
I think getting up every day and doing the work.
Hutch The Marine Investor (49:59):
Man, that's freaking awesome, man,
Michael, it's been a phenomenalpleasure, man.
Um, you know, how can ourlisteners, if listeners want to
get into your ecosystem, what isthe best way for them to get in
touch with you?
Michael Pouliot (50:10):
Sure.
So you can, uh, if you're, uh,an LP or you're someone who
wants to get on our, uh,newsletter, I recommend you go
to investwithcarbon.com.
Uh, and if you are, uh, notquite there, but you wanna learn
how to do it yourself, Irecommend you go to skool.com.
That's S K O O l.com.
Uh, and then look up the dealmaker, fast Track, uh, and
(50:31):
you'll find our community.
We've got, we just passedthrough 2000 members.
We started this community inJanuary.
So we've seen some prettytremendous growth in the last 90
days, and we're shooting to getto 10,000 by the end of June.
Oh, wow.
So, uh, hopefully some of yourlisteners can be part of that
journey and it's completelyfree.
Uh, and, uh, I do calls everysingle day in there.
So if you wanna talk to me, uh,you can get me, uh, right there
(50:54):
for free.
Hutch The Marine Investor (50:55):
Man.
That is awesome, man.
Michael, you know, thank you somuch for sharing your journey
from your, you know, job site,private equity, and all the
insights in between.
You know, you, you've shown thatinnovation, legacy and education
can and should exist in the sameecosystem.
You know, for the listeners, Iwant to thank you again for
listening to another episode ofthe Multifamily Real Estate
(51:16):
Experiment podcast.
If you found value in today'sepisode.
Feel free to leave us a, youknow, five star ratings and a
good review.
Right.
Until next time, you know, keepowning more of America.
And this is Hutch the MarineInvestor out.
With real estate or really any business,
you can create something out ofthin air, based on what suits
you.
And it's gonna take you a whileto get to maybe your ideal state
to, wherever you want to go.
But just know that, just keep onworking at it and, you can carve
out whatever niche isappropriate for you, that you
want, as long as you just keeptaking action and you just, just
(00:22):
keep getting up.
'cause you're gonna get knockedover, quite a bit.
But that's, all part of theprocess.
Yeah,
Hutch The Marine Investor (00:27):
man.
Don't quit and don't die.
Michael Pouliot (00:29):
Don't quit.
you can only lose if you stop.
Hutch The Marine Investor (00:31):
No, a 100%, man.
Welcome on.
Are You Multifamily Enthusiasts?
Welcome to another episode ofthe Multifamily Real Estate
Experiment podcast.
I'm your host, ShalonHutchinson.
If you're in real estate, youknow me as Hutch the Marine
investor.
And look, today we have anexciting guest for uc.
Most of us, we hear this thingabout, um, main Street and Wall
(00:54):
Street and a bunch of a BCStreet and one two Street, all,
all those things, right?
And you tend to hear thosethings as one or the other.
So today we want to capture,capture someone who have
experienced both world, right?
So I'm excited to welcomesomeone that bridge four
(01:16):
Generation of Real Estate Wisdomwith Next Gen Private Equity
innovation.
Michael, Michael Pollard is aCFA and A-C-A-I-A.
He's the founder and CEO of eonCapital Partners and the Chief
Investment Officer of, um, ofCarbon.
(01:36):
It is a, it's a middle market.
Private equity firm, you know,so with over$1 billion in real
estate acquisition and over 1million square feet of office
and mixed use project on thisbelt, and$400 million plus in
housing related transaction,Michael brings some serious
institutional expertise to thisspace.
(01:58):
He is also the host of the DealFlow Podcast, and he's a super
passionate advocate foreducating the next wave of real
estate entrepreneurs, you know,so Michael, I want to welcome
you to this episode of the EYPodcast.
Thank you Hutch, for having me.
I am, I'm excited about this,uh, podcast.
Yeah.
Man.
(02:19):
I am too, man.
So it sounds like you had some,you got a busy morning where you
choose to be here, man.
So we are, we absolute, yeah.
Can't miss out on a podcastopportunity.
Yeah.
I love
Michael Pouliot (02:28):
getting on podcasts.
Hutch The Marine Investor (02:29):
Yes.
So, Mike, I wanna ask you thisfirst question though.
do you have a favorite realestate quote or philosophy or
mantra that drives you?
Michael Pouliot (02:40):
I, I don't know if I have a specific quote that
I could say off the top of myhead that I wouldn't butcher.
but I would say, a philosophy ora mantra would be margin of
safety, which is a BenjaminGraham and I.
philosophy, who, and then thatwas taken by Warren Buffet and,
I think it's, something that alot of people think about, but,
(03:03):
margin of safety when you'rebuying real estate and you're
dealing in real assets, marginof safety is really important.
Whether that's about having goodreserves, about buying at the
right price, about, capitalizingyour deals appropriately with
the right type of debt.
so margin of safety is reallyimportant concept, and I think
if you apply that.
In your acquisitions and in yourmanagement.
(03:24):
you you can weather a lot ofstorms.
Hutch The Marine In (03:27):
Absolutely, man, that, that goes for the
passive investors as well,right?
Mm-hmm.
One of the things that Itypically talk to'em about is
their, their risk tolerance andtheir risk capacity, you know,
us.
That, that's really important.
Okay?
So margin of safety.
Alright man, I appreciate that.
So now I want to dive right intoit, man.
And I want to ask you, look,Michael, you, you, you are a
fourth generation real estateentrepreneur.
(03:47):
Great.
You know, what was it likegrowing up on the job site and,
you know, how did you, how, howdid that shape the way you
operate today, especially nowthat you've worked, you know,
you work with on small projects$25,000, you know, to real large
project, uh,$25 million deals.
I.
Sure.
Michael Pouliot (04:05):
Yeah.
Uh, thanks for that question.
So, uh, yeah, I started, beingfamiliar with real estate, uh,
as a, you know, kind of a daylaborer.
Um, and I would, you know, workon my father's job sites.
My grandfather would pick me up,uh, early, early in the morning
when it was still dark, and wewould go pick up a couple other
folks, um, that were working,you know.
(04:27):
Day shifts basically.
And I would be part of thatcrew, uh, essentially digging
holes and leveling ground andlaying down, um, you know,
plumbing and, um, going and, andgrabbing and goffering around,
like getting toilets and stufffrom commercial outfits.
And, uh, you know, I spent mysummers and my holidays doing
that.
It was great pay, uh, you know,uh, cash, great cash pay, uh, at
(04:52):
that time compared to what Icould get.
From a store, which, you know,at a store or something, I maybe
make four or five bucks an hourabout, uh, doing this.
I could make, you know, 15, 20bucks an hour.
So for me, that was fantastic.
Um, and, um, and yeah, I, Ithink what I.
What I learned from thatexperience was probably that I
didn't necessarily love the, uh,that part of the business of
(05:16):
being on the site and kind ofbeing part of like the, the
ground game.
And, uh, that's, you know, fromthat experience really learned
that I, I.
Had more of a knack for and moreof a, an appetite or interest in
more of the financial side ofthese transactions and really
thinking about hiring the rightpeople to go and do these
(05:37):
projects and executing them witha fine attention to detail.
More of a big picture type ofthinker.
And so I was really thinkingabout how to put these projects
together and then how to findpeople who are more engineers,
more, you know, detail orientedto actually.
Execute the construction, theproject management and things
like that.
Obviously it took time to get tothat point, but, uh, those were,
(05:59):
those were a couple things, uh,that I learned, uh, from, you
know, long days on the job site.
Hutch The Marine Investor (06:04):
So that, that is amazing journey,
man.
Like, you know, planting a seedfor, for something beautiful to
grow.
So you got, you got involved,you know, with the construction
aspect of, of real estate, butalso.
You, you saw a really biggerpicture that, that you can add
a, a ton of value and that kindof brought you to more so of,
the financial world that a lotof people know me.
(06:24):
So you spent some time, youknow, on JP Morgan, you know,
fixed income trading desk and,and consulted for some big heavy
hitters like Goldman, Sach, and,and Merrill.
Right.
So what specific lessons fromWall Street, um, still influence
how you structure your deals andleads in today's environment?
Michael Pouliot (06:45):
Yeah, so yeah, I, I, so yeah, I had that early
experience.
Uh, and uh, then yeah, I wentand then got my undergrad in
finance, uh, in Boston and then.
Was, uh, you know, in, it was,it was, I don't know, it was
kind of before softwareengineering became like the,
maybe the sexy thing to do.
And it, it was still in thisworld, and at least for me and
(07:07):
growing up in the Northeast,that like finance or law, uh,
or, you know, were kind of likethe things to do, uh, at least.
That was what was attractive tome.
And so I went, uh, finance, Iwent into finance and, uh, yeah,
worked on Wall Street, uh, for,uh, mostly in fixed income, uh,
working with ultra high networth individuals to, um, build
(07:30):
their portfolios and, um, helpedthem manage their money, uh,
mostly, uh, for JP Morgan.
Um, and you know, the thingsthat I learned from my Wall
Street career were primarily.
About, uh, a couple things.
So I had a, a number of reallygreat bosses.
I, I don't know that Irecognized them as great bosses
at the time, but now lookingback, I, I feel like I've, I
(07:52):
learned a lot from them.
I think there's a difference,you know, I don't know if I
would call them my friends, butI would call, I learned a lot of
lessons from'em, and, and someof those, you know, one of them
in particular.
Um, you know, was, uh, havinglike an intense level of
paranoia, uh, relative to yourwork product.
Uh, and so we had this sort oftwo strike rule, uh, at JP
Morgan that, you know, if you,you made one mistake in a client
(08:14):
meeting, you'd get, uh, awarning, your second mistake in
a client meeting, you would befired.
And so, um, you know, that levelof standard is something that we
try to instill in, um, you know,our teams, it's a little bit.
It's a little harder now to dothat, uh, with folks.
Um, it, it, it seems, uh, but,uh, but we, you know, we were
(08:34):
held to an extremely highstandard, uh, very high stress
environment.
and just making sure thateverything that we did, there
was a maker checker system toit, that nothing went to a
client without.
Uh, being thoroughly reviewedbecause at the end of the day
that if it's your draft, you arethe one that's responsible for
it.
And so that, whether that's a,you know, an Excel model or a
PowerPoint presentation or a, amemo of some kind, or even just
(08:56):
a statement that you make, uh,that's your draft, that's your
words.
And, and that's important.
Um, and then the second thing Iwould say.
Was around just recognizing, youknow, most of these days that I
had were, you know, 14 hourdays, uh, where I was working,
you know, getting in earlybefore the trading, you know,
before the traders.
So I would be in at seven, uh,and then, um, staying till seven
(09:20):
or eight, but then I had a twohour commute on either side of
my day.
So it was a pretty long day.
And, uh, sometimes that seveno'clock at night became midnight
and that was, you know,definitely, frequent.
Uh, and, but what I learned fromthat was, uh, anything can
pretty much be accomplished, inone day, no matter how long that
day is, especially when you'reworking with computers and
(09:40):
you're putting together, a memoor a presentation or something
like that's in your controlthat's right in front of you.
there's really no excuse toleave the office or leave that
work until it's done.
and, and that was just like arequirement.
So we would get assignments inthe middle of the day and they
had to get completed, by thetime we left because they were
(10:02):
due by the time we got in thenext morning.
So whether you had to stay tilleight to get it done, or 8:00 AM
the next morning, you just hadto get it done.
So the confidence that I thinkthat develops in someone is
really important.
Recognizing that no matter howbig the work effort is, almost
anything, especially if it's inyour control, if it's just a
work product on your computer,it can be accomplished in the
(10:22):
day that you.
Get it started.
and I think that gives you a lotof confidence to be able to go
out there and, get an enormousamount of, work completed if
necessary in a short period oftime.
Yeah,
Hutch The Marine Investor (10:36):
man, that is an amazing point of view
because I think a lot of us, wealways think about we can do
that tomorrow.
Tomorrow.
Tomorrow and, and tomorrow nevercome, you know?
But to your point, you know, I,I've seen a lot too, even in my
own experience, right, where ifI have a timeline, so if the
boss tells me, you know, as a,as a young marine growing up,
the boss tell me, I got thisreport, or I have this, um,
(10:59):
award to write up, and I havelike three weeks to do it, it
will get done in three weeks.
Right?
However, that same award, if youtell me that needs to be done by
the close of business today.
That will be done by close ofbusiness today.
So, and the, the same is trueabout the, the, the goals that
we ex, we established forourself.
Those things that we want, theincremental things we want to
accomplish, if we set it that wewill get, we will get this done
(11:19):
in this timeline, this timeline,this timeline.
And okay, what if we shrink thattimeline and we can ex actually
expedite our goals and we canactually put our life on a
faster trajectory.
You know what I mean?
So.
We, we were talking about, youknow, me submitting my
retirement, um, paperwork, youknow, for 18 months from now.
And, you know, I got 18 monthsto retire.
But however, what if I shrinkthat right?
(11:41):
And all the things that I needto accomplish, I get it done
within six months.
You know, so the next year canbe really focused on that
transition, um, portion, youknow.
So yeah, to your point, man, um,we can get a lot of stuff done
as long as we set.
Short deadlines.
Alright, so I wanna talk aboutsome of the investment
philosophy in deals, man, youknow, so with hands-on
experience in, in everythingfrom, single family home, you
(12:04):
know, to, to millions of squarefeet in office development.
Um, how do you personallyevaluate, um, opportunities, um,
that you're pursuing in today'smarket?
Michael Pouliot (12:16):
Yeah, so, um.
We, so primarily now at thispoint, we, we focus on housing.
Okay.
Uh, so we really think abouthousing and, and primarily
that's workforce housing.
So we're not doing, while we've,I've I've worked on a lot of,
you know, spec luxury homes thatare millions of dollars
individually.
Um.
Right now.
(12:37):
And, and for the last, uh, bitof time, at least the last five
years, really been focused onworkforce housing.
Um, and, uh, whether that besingle family or apartments,
but, but in that space, uh, in,in primarily growing markets,
uh, throughout the UnitedStates.
So if I think about what.
Uh, our philosophy is, or how wethink about making investments,
(12:59):
uh, in that space.
It starts with the area.
So it definitely starts withthe, we're looking at the
demographics of the area.
We're looking at the schools.
We're looking at the crime, thepopulation growth, the migration
trends.
We're primarily looking forplaces that have stable or
improving.
Population, which typicallyleads to or follows job growth.
Um, and then we are alwayslooking for with the types of
(13:22):
properties that we, um, investin properties that have great
schools because we feel that.
Places with great schoolsattract families.
Those families will stay inthose communities through the
duration of their children'seducation.
So you tend to get stickiertenants that want to stay
longer.
Uh, we primarily work in therental housing space, so, but I
(13:43):
would say the same things applyif I was in the for sale.
Space.
I want to be in places wherepeople are moving, where, you
know, a household formation isstrong, those sorts of things.
And, and you know, theavailability of data now you
really can tell exactly what'shappening in real time and, um,
take advantage of those trends.
It's not a guarantee that I.
(14:03):
Just because, you know, we're inan area with good population
growth, that we're gonna have agood investment, but it's a good
tailwind.
Um, and you have to offset thatwith, uh, supply.
So typically what we find is thebuilders, everyone's looking at
the same numbers.
So we're all looking at the samenumbers and say, Hey.
Florida, it's great in Floridabecause so many people are
moving there.
And then builders will build andthey'll all build at the same
(14:26):
time, and then all of a suddenwe've got 10 times as many
houses as we need, right?
So we have to be cognizant of,of what everyone else, uh, you
know, reflexivity, uh, right,like everyone else's behaviors,
uh, and, uh, affect, uh, whatyou should be doing.
Um, and so we're all part ofthis same like system, so you
have to be careful about all ofthat.
But, you know, we're looking atdemos, we're looking at supply,
(14:50):
uh, we're looking at populationgrowth and changes like that.
And then we're overlaying thatwith the, um, you know, how
friendly the area is tolandlords, uh, and tenant, uh,
relationships, uh, how the stateis involved in the, in the
housing sector in that area.
So that typically means thatwe're right now investing.
(15:10):
Uh, in the Southeast as well asTexas.
So kind of going from Texasthrough the panhandle, down to
Florida, mostly from i4, so sortof Disney World North through
the space Coast, up through, um,um.
They're basically all the waythrough to the Carolinas.
Uh, and that would be ourprimary, uh, space.
Although I really do enjoy, uh,and think there's a lot to be
(15:33):
said about the Midwest, uh, Ithink that that's something
that's typically overlooked.
Uh, even though it may not havethe same level of migration
trends or population growth.
It has strong incomes, um, and,uh, a great workforce.
And a diversified economic base.
So, and it has the only freshwater in the United States that
we may have in the next 50years.
So, uh, I think that'ssomething, uh, the Great Lakes
(15:55):
are an asset that we undervaluethat may become more valuable as
the country changes, uh, overtime.
Interesting.
Um, so, um.
Did that answer your question?
That that's happen?
It definitely did.
That's like the beginning.
There's more to it, but we startthere.
Hutch The Marine Investor (16:11):
Oh, no, no, definitely no.
So I, I usually just call it ahype, right?
Um, you know, when you invest,invest in the place, you wanna
look at the hype.
So you wanna look at the, thehome prices growth, right?
You, you want to look at the,the income growth, you wanna
look at the population growth,um, and of course the employment
growth as well, right?
Make sure that thediversification of jobs is
there.
But to you point, man.
Um, the, the market has cycles,right, just like the stock
(16:33):
market has cycles.
The housing market has cyclesas, as well, and it's really
important to pay attention towhat market cycle that you're
purchasing a property in,regardless of what, um, type of
property you're buying.
And also the projection of whatenvironment you're gonna be
looking to sell that asset in.
And also the quality of buyersthat will be available
potentially, um, will beavailable as well, you know?
(16:55):
Mm-hmm.
So, you know, a great, greatphilosophy, man.
So, so navigating, I wanna talkabout some navigating the
current cycles, you know.
In recent years, interest ratesand inflation was a thing.
Now it's tariffs amongst otherthings.
Right.
So if you're a developer, right,and you get in a lot of your
supplies from differentcountries, right?
Tariff might be a concern foryou.
Um, are you seeing or having animpact or projecting an impact
(17:17):
in a real estate developments?
Um, in the, in the coming monthsand years?
Michael Pouliot (17:21):
Yeah, so we find that.
That's certainly a concern, um,relative to projects, new
projects that we're doing right,where we have large budgets,
there's material costs, we aretypically, um, getting our
supplies overseas or if we'renot getting'em overseas
directly, they're certainlycoming from overseas indirectly.
(17:42):
So we will be subject tomaterial costs going up.
Uh, over time, um, but we havesome flexibility as to when we
acquire these materials.
Uh, most of our business plansare multi-year, so we can delay
certain projects to wait forsome of the noise.
Of the political environment to,to change.
Uh, and then again, most of ourbook of business, most of the
(18:04):
properties that we own, they're,uh, not, it's not that they're
not susceptible to thosechallenges, but we just don't
have as much capitalimprovements to make on those
projects, right?
So we don't have to spend themoney and therefore not be so
subject to it.
So yes, maybe we have to replacean HVAC here or there, et
cetera, on a regular schedule,but we don't have a huge amount
of, uh, budget to, to allocate.
(18:25):
So when we have new projects.
That's where it's mostconcerning or most affecting us,
is if we have a double ofmaterial cost that's gonna
affect our project cost by 10%,20%, which may eat up all our
contingency, but that alsoassumes that we actually move
forward with a hundred percentof the materials at this exact
time versus, you know, um,linearly acquiring them over the
(18:47):
next couple years.
So that's, you know, we, we havea few different strategies that
we can use to do that.
We can also stockpile you know,stuff that's already here.
Yeah.
Put them in containers, we can,you know, there's a substitution
right of materials.
If we thought, hey, this isgonna be a lot, this is gonna be
30% cheaper, all of a sudden itbecame 30% more expensive, we
(19:07):
can go back to the originalplan, which would've been just
to buy from North America, forinstance.
That makes sense.
Which again, I think is part ofthe.
Maybe perhaps the goal of someof these tariffs is to get
people to, uh, substitute, uh,uh, a good that maybe isn't a,
from another country to, uh,somewhere that's maybe closer to
home.
Um, and, um, so some impactthere.
(19:30):
Uh, outside of tariffs, I wouldsay that, I was just talking to
a broker yesterday and he wastelling me about, um.
Kind of what the composition ofbuyers looks like today.
Uh, you know, I think that themarket is starting to change.
Mm-hmm.
There was a time in 21, 22 whereyou had the syndicators and a
(19:51):
lot of hot money were biddingprices up, uh, doing deals that
potentially unstable orunsustainable valuations.
Uh, those folks obviously are,or maybe not obviously, but are
not necessarily big buyers intoday's market.
Uh, and, and the liquidity wasvery thin for quite a while.
There wasn't a lot of buyers forproperty and there weren't a lot
(20:12):
of sellers either right after,after 2022, and, you know, the
last 24 to 36 months, it's beennot a lot of buyers, not a lot
of sellers, or at least maybethere were buyers and sellers,
but they could never, they couldnot agree on price, right?
Of what, what the price shouldbe.
Um, and so now what I'm seeingand what I'm hearing from the
brokerage community is over thelast six to 12 months, some of
those folks that were big buyersin the 2015.
(20:36):
2018 space are seeingopportunity and they're starting
to come back.
Right?
And those are buyers that werein the business for 10, 15, 20
years, right?
They weren't new to the game in2015, but they had longstanding
relationships with these biggerbrokerage houses and they just
stopped buying as.
Prices moved up in 2020 and2021, and now, uh, they're
(20:59):
starting to come back.
They're starting to see value.
They're starting to think maybewe're at peak cap rates and, and
cap rates are gonna startfalling, and we're seeing
positive leverage.
And so you're seeing the.
The programmatic investors arein the, in the market.
They're always in the market bydefinition, you know, uh, buying
or selling based on their fundmandates.
Then you have, you're startingto see these family offices and
(21:20):
these longer term holders comeback and provide liquidity into
the market.
And so, uh, it, it feels very,and, but at the same time,
you're also still dealing with.
Almost the first wave ofdistress from the 2021, 2022
debacle.
So a lot of the, you know,properties that need to have a
reset of basis are that's gonnahappen.
(21:42):
Either it happened last year orthis year, or next year.
So that's sort of cresting.
And the new cycles beginning.
And I think we're probably, youknow, in the first third of the
game here, uh, which I think isa great opportunity for people
who are well capitalized, uh,have, you know, high conviction
to go out and acquire propertyeven despite all of the, you
(22:03):
know, noise that there is inthe, uh, political environment,
the economic environment.
As long as you're in it for thelong term and you're, uh,
considering margin of safety, asI mentioned in the beginning.
Hutch The Marine Investor (22:13):
Yeah, that's awesome, man.
Which leads me to the nextsegment, which is, you know,
innovation distress and, youknow, scaling opportunities,
right?
So you have done hundreds ofmillions in housing related
transaction, you know, with thefocus and distress, you know,
turn and turnaround deals.
You know, what is the biggestmistake investors make when
chasing distressed assets andhow do you avoid them?
Michael Pouliot (22:33):
Yeah, so I think it's right there in the
sentence that you said, um, youcan't really just, uh, uh, chase
distress deals, right um, yousort of let them hang
themselves, uh, and let thembleed out.
Uh, and then they are just therefor the picking.
So I think it's about developingrelationships with those who are
closest to those deals, whetherthat be lenders, uh, possibly
(22:54):
property managers, or even othersponsors who may be in a rough
position.
Uh, we found that a strategythat we're employing right now,
uh, that we've been trying toemploy for the last 18 months,
but we've been early, uh, butit's now starting to come to,
um, you know, come, come tofruition.
Uh, is start, start, you know,having conversations with
sponsors who.
Did perhaps buy at a pretty highprice and and have debt that.
(23:19):
Uh, is too expensive and, andhas too high of a basis and come
into those deals and, andreplace those sponsors.
Bring in some fresh capital,renegotiate with the lenders.
Uh, and so that's what we'restarting to see.
Uh, a lot of, I think existingsponsors are realizing that
rates are not gonna go downsignificantly.
They're not gonna see a 20%increase in the value of their,
(23:40):
of their properties.
Uh, now, basically right now,uh, or over the next 12 months,
and they're just ready tocapitulate and move on from the
project.
And so, um, and that, you know,that requires some tough
conversations with thosesponsors, with the, with the
debt holders.
Um, and so we're having thoseconversations right now.
(24:00):
Across a number of differenttransactions in different areas
with either the current sponsoror the lender, depending on how
far along the process has gone.
Right.
Uh, and seeing how we can comeinto that opportunity.
We're vertically integrated, sowe have our own property
management company, and so wecan come in, we can take over
the day-to-day operations.
We can, we have a discretionaryfund, so we can bring in and,
(24:23):
uh, write a check to, um, youknow.
Deal with deferred maintenance,things that maybe the existing
sponsor couldn't do becausetheir debt restricted them from
taking on additional, you know,draws.
So then we could recover theasset operationally, take over
the property, wipe out theexisting gp, maybe hopefully
recover some of the LP dollarsfrom the old transaction.
(24:44):
Uh, and then also make thelender whole.
So, uh, I don't think everyonecomes out feeling great about
the how it goes, but we have tomove on from the.
Those transactions into a bettermarket environment.
Um, and, and I think that's partof what's happening right now.
Hutch The Marine Investor (24:59):
Yeah.
I think it's, it'd be reallycool if everyone had a crystal
ball back in, you know, the2019, 2020.
Right.
You know, because I think we hada lot of good operators.
Just maybe their long-termprojection or midterm projection
was not consistent with whatreally happened in 2021, 2022.
You know, so, you know, to yourpoint, these properties are in a
(25:23):
lot of cases are really goodproperties in good markets with
good fundamentals, right?
However, because of the increasein debt and the inability to
refinance these property in atraditional sense, it makes it
really challenging for theproperty to cash flow and then
additional to not having cashflow.
They're not able to execute thebusiness plan, which drag on
(25:45):
their reserves.
Right.
And when you start bleeding allthe reserves, then you come to a
point where it doesn't makesense to hold onto this property
and they find somebody who canprovide, um, new capital to
revitalize that business plan.
You know?
So it's a great idea.
So you mentioned that you fund,right, which lead me to my next
question, right?
As a fund manager and, you know,tech enabled operator, you know,
(26:05):
how do you think about, youknow, buying versus building?
Operation infrastructure toscale.
And what role does ProTech playin your decisions?
Michael Pouliot (26:15):
Yeah, so, um.
I, uh, my, my business partnerat Carbon Cody, uh, is really
responsible and spearheaded our,our vertical integration
building on our propertymanagement division, our
construction, uh, division, uh,so that we could take over these
assets and we found that I.
Just by taking over assets, our,our properties from our third
(26:37):
party managers to bringing themin house, uh, within six months
we see a 20%, 30% lift in theproperty performance.
Just because we control, theincentive structure, uh, we
ensure that the right people onthe right seats, we can be more
proactive in hiring and renewalsand, um, doing just a number of
different things that.
That we want to be able to do,uh, that we may not be able to
(26:59):
do or influence through a, uh, athird party who has slightly
different incentives than we do,uh, potentially, um, in, in some
cases.
So, uh, I think they do theirbest.
They work, uh, as agents andthey, you know, have their own
incentives.
And so, you know, we, we, Ican't blame them for being, uh,
you know what they are.
Uh, but we find that, you know,our first foremost, most
(27:21):
important thing is that we haveto protect the money that we
bring, uh, into the deals fromour LPs.
Uh, they're our, one of ourprimary customers that them and
the tenants.
And so it's really importantthat we do our very best to, uh,
oversee and, and run thoseproperties.
And we feel like.
First party management, ifthat's a term, uh, makes a lot
of sense.
And so to that end, you know,there are several PropTech
(27:43):
things, I guess, uh, we'redoing, uh, I mean I, you know,
we're using, uh, voice andtext-based ai, um, where, where
it's appropriate.
Um, so that would look like, um,primarily.
When there's off hours.
So people are still moreinterested in talking to a
(28:03):
person, right.
If they can.
But if we're not in the office,then they'd rather talk to a
robot or text with a robot thanto get no response at all.
That makes sense.
So the speed to lead is always acritical component of every
sales process.
We think of our, you know, salesis very important, right?
You want to.
Lease new units.
You want to get better andbetter pricing.
(28:24):
You wanna provide an excellentcustomer experience along the
way.
And so if we can provide 24 hourcustomer service, whether
that's, you know, eight hours aday with our people and then
another 16 hours for folks usingrobots, then we'd love to do
that.
And it's very cost effectiveand, and very effective for us.
So that's how we do that isprimarily through text and
voice-based ai, uh, eitheranswering the phones.
(28:47):
Dispatching phone calls outusing robots or texting.
Uh, and then the same with, uh,R&M, so maintenance requests,
things like that.
That's all digital.
So as much as we can put, um,you know, digital, reduce
friction, allow for seamlesscommunication and constant
updates.
Yeah.
Making sure our tenants and ourresidents are.
(29:07):
Aware of what's happening, um,at our community, uh, when rent
is due, when a repair is goingto occur, those sorts of things.
That's all very important.
Outside of that, you know, it'sstill very much a physical
business, so there's only somuch that we can do.
Uh, you know, I guess eventuallywe'll have, uh, Android robots
walking around doing landscapingand, uh, cleaning the pool and
(29:29):
things like that.
But for now, I'd say most of theAI PropTech execution is a,
around the software and theleasing and the maintenance
requests, that sort of thing.
Hutch The Marine Investor (29:42):
I got, I got you, man.
And a lot of folks will becoming to your point, a lot more
used to, you know, dealing with,with AI to get them to, to, to
accomplish your thing, you know?
So next segment I wanna focuson, you know, education and
mentor, you know, and lifting upthe next generation of
entrepreneurs, especially realestate entrepreneurs.
So you give away a ton ofeducational content, you know,
which, which is rare forsomeone.
(30:03):
Um, it's usually rare.
right.
However, that's actually one ofthe things I like about real
estate environment is that insome cases we become more core
competitors than we arecompetitors, you know, so.
Um, why is it so important toyou, or, I mean, to understand
why it's important to you andwhat's your message to Aspire,
(30:25):
um, real estate entrepreneurslooking into 2025 and beyond?
Michael Pouliot (30:30):
Yeah, thanks.
So, um, you know, we have a, uh,uh, well, through our, uh,
private equity firm we put outweekly.
Blogs on a number of topics thatare, that affect the real estate
business as well as we have aweekly newsletter.
I do a daily podcast.
You mentioned one of them, whichis the Deal flow podcast, right?
That's a interview style likethis one that we do weekly, but
(30:53):
I also have a daily news podcastthat I do that's a short five to
10 minutes every single day, uh,on commercial and, and
residential news among otherexecutions that we try to
provide value.
To our, our, you know.
Listenership or readership orwhatever you wanna call it.
Yeah.
Uh, but again, most of that isfocused on LPs that can write
(31:15):
fifty, hundred, you know,million dollar checks.
That's, you know, a very smallsegment of the population.
And so, um, we also have acommunity free community called,
uh, inside of school called theDeal Maker Fast Track Free
Community, where we provide, uh,uh, endless.
Maybe not endless, but asignificant amount of resources
to help people, uh, gettingstarted, going from that zero,
(31:38):
uh, to that first deal.
Uh, and not necessarily bywriting us a check, but by going
out there, finding the deals,analyzing the deals, and
profiting from those deals,whether that's through
wholeselling, right, flippingcontracts, or if it's flipping
and flip, uh, fix and flipping,or if it's turning, uh,
properties into rentals.
My first property was a$25,000single family home row home in
(32:00):
Philadelphia.
Uh, using the BUR strategy.
And even though, yes, now we'redoing$25,$50 million
transactions, I'm still usingthe Bur method.
I'm still, it's the sameframeworks.
It's the same concepts just withanother zero or another.
Few zeros on it.
Um, and so I, I think that, youknow, everyone has to start from
(32:20):
the beginning.
And so our goal with thecommunity is to get people, uh,
involved in real estate.
It's definitely changed my life.
It's allowed me and my my familyto, uh, you know, have the life
that we want.
We live in Boulder, Colorado.
Uh, get to enjoy the outdoorsand, uh.
Talk to you, uh, which is great.
And, um, and so I wouldencourage anyone who is just
(32:41):
getting started or just wants tolearn more about real estate,
uh, to, you know, uh, go outthere and educate yourself,
whether it's in our community orsomewhere else.
It doesn't much matter.
The information is out there.
Knowledge is not the barrieranymore.
We, you know.
Even if you just wanted to useChat gpt, you could get all the
basically the same informationoutta chat gpt as you could get
in my community.
It may be that we organize it,hopefully, I, I hope we organize
(33:04):
it in a way that's impactful forpeople.
Right.
But, uh, something I say, we, werun a live workshop every other
week and I'm, this is, I.
Actually our fifth, our lastday, I have to, after this, I'm
gonna go do day five of, ourworkshop.
But I say knowledge withoutaction is useless.
goals without action are wishes.
Yep.
so you really have to thinkabout, it's not the knowledge
(33:24):
that's the gap anymore.
in today's society with all ofthat's available, you have to
take that knowledge.
You have to get out of, learningmode at some point and go out
there and, swing a hammer or,Buy something or, have a
conversation with a person.
and that's where businesshappens.
That's how real estate happens.
It doesn't happen in a workshopnecessarily, or in a, digital
(33:45):
community.
You have to maybe start therefor a little bit, but you gotta
get out of those communitieseventually and, go take action.
So that's our message inside ofour community, is go out there
and take action.
and most of what you'll learn,is gonna be from, doing that.
Hutch The Marine Investor (34:01):
That is awesome, man.
Now, here's the thing.
And the same, conversationtowards, sharing knowledge.
So you talked to, you've spokento brokers sponsor, PropTech
leaders on the Deal Flowpodcast.
Can you tell us, briefly aboutone conversation that completely
reshaped the way you think aboutreal estate?
Michael Pouliot (34:21):
I.
Completely.
That's a big, that's a big,maybe not completely, but Okay.
Not completely.
Okay.
Improved.
I spoke with a guy, early on andI, so just last week I was
talking to this, one of thestudents.
Uh, they wanted to start doingland flipping.
Uh, and I've got some friendswho are in the, like the land
business.
And I did a podcast with a guy,uh, based outta Florida, uh,
(34:43):
earlier this year, uh, that isdoing this at scale.
And, uh, you know, I just,listening to him, uh, it's just,
uh, interesting to see thatthere's so many opportunities
out there to create.
Any size business in real estatethat suits you.
And I think that was somethingthat was interesting to me is
just, you know, whether you'rejust starting out or this
(35:05):
particular gentleman was, youknow, had 3000 units of
development going at the sametime and over all these
different projects.
He was doing these land dealswhere he would put them under
option and then he'd find abuilder and he would take his
equity and roll it into the dealand.
He was just doing it at a veryhigh level and, you know, big,
big projects, um, 50, hundredmillion dollars each.
(35:26):
And, um, he was able to do, youknow, a lot of these projects at
the same time.
'cause he wasn't actually doingany of the physical
construction.
He was sort of just like puttingthe deals together and kind of
putting the different piecestogether, the engineers and the
surveyors and then the sponsorsand the equity and, and then
just getting a little piece ofthe deal by putting it all
together.
And I thought it was just reallygreat because he.
(35:49):
Was, uh, he was such a dealmaker himself.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, but he'd been workingon it for 15 years, right?
He didn't, he didn't, you know,in a, in a year or in a month
get there doing it at thatscale.
So I think it's just, you know,with real estate or really any
business, you can createsomething out of thin air, based
on what suits you.
And it's gonna take you a whileto get to maybe your ideal state
(36:11):
to, wherever you want to go.
But just know that, just keep onworking at it and, you can carve
out whatever niche isappropriate for you, that you
want, as long as you just keeptaking action and you just, just
keep getting up.
'cause you're gonna get knockedover, quite a bit.
But that's, all part of theprocess.
Yeah,
Hutch The Marine Investor (36:29):
man.
Don't quit and don't die.
Michael Pouliot (36:30):
Don't quit.
you can only lose if you stop.
Hutch The Marine Investor (36:32):
No, a 100%, man.
So, you know, um, that leads usto getting towards the end of
this podcast.
And before we get into the focusround, I've got two more
questions I want to ask you,man.
And it's about real estate intoday's right.
So the contrarian play, right?
What is one real estate strategyor niche that you think a lot of
people are not paying attentionto?
(36:53):
That it has massive potentialover the next 12 to 18 months?
Michael Pouliot (36:59):
Yes.
So, uh, it's almost like youYeah.
Like, we did not plan thesequestions.
In fact, did not, I had saidthat.
I don't wanna know what thequestions are in advance, but I,
uh, because I just like to saywhatever I think at the moment.
Right.
And so, so for this particular,we recently did a, uh, an
article, I think earlier thisyear.
I can't remember exactly thedate.
Um, talking about the perceptionof vintage, uh, plays in
(37:21):
housing.
And so right now we're seeing alot of.
Folks move away from 60s, 70s,and 80s vintage properties,
right?
Yep.
And move into nineties, twothousands and two thousands,
tens because they're looking atthose and they're saying, well,
they're getting older.
You know, there's a lot ofsponsors got burned because they
didn't think about the plumbingand the electrical and the
(37:42):
roofing issues that you canencounter in those older
properties.
And so, as someone who's donethousands and thousands of
units.
In that vintage, I think thatnow is actually a fantastic
opportunity to take advantage ofwhat I see as a big discount for
that perception risk.
So it's not an actual risk.
You're paying a lot more rightnow to buy newer property on a
(38:04):
price per square foot basis.
On a revenue basis.
On just on the, on theperception.
That newer is better, and Idon't necessarily know that
that's the case, especially ifyou do a great job on your due
diligence, you ensure that thatplumbing is in good shape, that
electrical's been upgraded, andyou know your product is in a
good position because thoseproperties still have to house
(38:25):
the workforce Housing ofAmerica, right?
Mm-hmm.
The people.
Are not, a lot of people are notable to afford$2,000,$800 rents.
You need to have a product outthere that provides$800 to$1,400
product, and that product is the70s and 80s vintage.
So right now we're findingopportunities where we can buy
those properties at the sameprices as we could in the middle
(38:47):
2010s, uh, price per squarefoot, but incomes are 50%
higher, revenue is 50% higher.
And so we're finding a lot ofopportunities there.
We're able to get a really greatcash yield out of those
properties.
And we don't have to competewith all of these other, uh,
folks that are all sort of onthe same bandwagon of, Hey, I
want to go up vintage.
(39:08):
So, uh, I think there's a,there's a strong, uh,
opportunity now.
As the market shifts, as we getto a hotter phase of the market,
that perception discount, uh,gets eliminated and people don't
care as much about vintageright?
When the money gets really hot.
We did a kind of a study on thisand we found that.
Um, you know, a lot of thatperception discount goes away
(39:28):
when the, the market gets reallyhot, like 2021.
Mm-hmm.
And so during those times,that's when you actually want to
go to the newer vintage becauseyou're not paying up for that
vintage relative to the oldervintage.
Uh, but when the market iscooler like it is today, uh,
there's a significant discountthat's not explained by.
(39:48):
Expenses, NOI revenue or anyother financial metric, it's
completely based on theperception and the flow of
funds, uh, and the herdmentality.
And so we're looking to, youknow, try to go against that.
And, and that's what we're doingnow,
Hutch The Marine Investor (40:02):
now that, that is a unique
perspective, man.
'cause, um, myself, as asyndicator, um, we are focused
on buying newer properties aswell.
But I, I definitely see yourpoint as far as, um, all the
vintage properties, right?
Plus also, you know, in, intoday's.
Uh, environment, there's so manynew properties coming online,
right?
Um, that, that in some cases itmakes more sense to buy those
(40:26):
property.
Reason being is that you'redealing with less, um,
operational risk, and it's alot, lot easier to manage
because you're not dealing withall the upgrades and upkeep,
right?
So for, for the new event, buthowever, when you look at a, a
value based, um, investment, youknow, some of those older
vintage property is definitely agood play.
Michael Pouliot (40:42):
So one more point I would say is like, uh,
some would, I, I think thatthere's a, a reasonable, uh,
barbell strategy where you canlook for those attractive, newer
opportunities.
Especially the ones where youhad sponsors who made new
developments.
They're busted now and you canbuy them at a really good price
relative to replacement costs.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm not suggesting that thoseproperties aren't a good buy,
(41:04):
but I think people should justbe, uh, aware that there is a.
There's a discount you cancapture for older property that
is not apparent, uh, in themarket.
And what we look for when Ithink about margin of safety,
uh, is we look less on the goingin cap rate because what a lot
of people will say is, well, thegoing in cap rate for both of
(41:24):
these sets of properties arebasically the same, right?
I can get a six cap to a six anda half cap for a 70s vintage as
I can for a 2010 vintage.
Well, why would I buy an olderproperty, the same cap rate as a
newer property?
And I think the answer that we,we come out to is I can get that
70s vintage up to an eight capmm-hmm.
Through a value add.
Whereas the, the newer property,I may only be able to trend that
(41:47):
up to a six and a half, to a 675 or maybe a 7.
Right.
And so for us, we look at, okay,what is that yield on cost in
year four year five.
Um, and how do I feel about thatbasis?
Uh, right, because that 70svintage property, I might be at
an eight cap and only be at$120,000 a door, uh, in four or
(42:09):
five years.
All in that newer property.
You may only get up to a six anda half, maybe a seven cap, and
be at$250 to$300 a door all in.
And then I may be competingwith.
New construction or, you know,uh, maybe more difficult to
cover my expenses or see revenuegrowth.
So that's what I look at is,hey, if I could be at 40 cents
(42:29):
the dollar relative toreplacement cost, be it an eight
cap, which should besignificantly above the market
cap rate, I.
And, and the financing rate.
I feel pretty secure as a long,and I'm also a long-term holder.
I'm also looking to like, if Ican never sell, so I also just
never want to sell.
Um, and so I'm only selling ifmy investors are essentially
(42:50):
requiring it.
Um, and uh, so, so yeah.
So that would be the one otherpoint I would make about that
Hutch The Marine Investor (42:56):
man.
To your point, we didn't planthis podcast, but my next
question is actually about, youknow, fund strategy, right?
So how do you think aboutaligning investors' incentive
inside your fund structure,especially with LPs looking for
income and growth.
Michael Pouliot (43:11):
Yeah, so income, we are right now and,
are, always looking at cashflow.
Cashflow is king.
We, um, you know, and, and mostof the deals that we're doing
today either are, uh, loanassumptions where we're having
really strong yield going in, orthey're gonna be turnaround
strategies, uh, where we'retaking over deals like I had
mentioned before.
(43:31):
Those deals not a lot of cashflow to start.
Right.
Gotcha.
We're coming into a deal withlow occupancy, we typically have
to make some sort of operationalimprovement, but we're gonna get
to what we think is a muchhigher double digit cash on cash
by year three or year two even.
Um, for the deals that are morestable, where we're taking an
assumption on, uh, or, or evennew debt, we're looking at.
(43:53):
For new debt, we're probablylooking at that 5% yield right
out of the gate.
And then when we're taking on anassumption right now, we're
typically seeing almost doubledigit cash on cash yields right
into the deal, or certainly bythe end of year one.
That's how we're thinking aboutyield in today's environment and
we're doing that through agencyfixed rate debt, long term, five
to seven year money, primarily,uh, with the expectation that
(44:17):
we're gonna refinance that.
At that end of that term and,and continue to hold that asset.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so far as growth, again, wefeel like we're buying at really
good basis in today's market.
Wherever we are on the vintagecurve, whether it's an older
asset or a new asset, we feellike, you know, five years
forward we're gonna be reallyhappy about the prices we're
paying for properties, uh, intoday's market relative to a few
(44:40):
years ago or even 10 years ago.
Um, so.
That is how we're thinking aboutmargin of safety and growth, uh,
is really, hey, we think we'regetting a great value today.
From a price per doorperspective, we're getting paid
to carry the asset on a month,on a yearly basis through
positive cash flow.
Uh, and then so far as holdperiod, we are long-term
(45:02):
holders.
We tell our investors, weunderwrite and show a 10 year
model in our underwriting.
So we don't show a five yearmodel.
Um, in our, in our.
Pitch decks or our materials,we're showing a 10 year model.
Um, and what we'll tellinvestors are, or is, uh, that,
you know, when we get to the endof our first maturity rate,
whatever piece of debt thatlooks like, we're going to
(45:22):
assess the market.
If we feel like we can get areally strong exit at that
point, we will, uh, you know,look at that, we'll talk to
investors, we'll see what theirinterests are, and we will no
matter what, likely 10 31 thatinto the next opportunity.
Or recapitalize that deal withnew investors who want to stay
in.
So, uh, from my perspective, aproperty I own, I know a lot
(45:44):
more about than a new propertyI'm gonna buy.
So if I know I'm in an assetthat I like, then I'd rather
hold that asset for the longterm.
And if the investors wantliquidity, we can provide that
liquidity without losing controlof the asset.
So I see the asset and the, um,the equity as two separate
things, and I can hold theasset.
While still providing liquidityto the investors through a
(46:05):
refinancing or a, uh, you know,they can get taken outta that
deal and put into another deal,and we can bring new investors
into that.
Uh, first, you know, that firstopportunity with the
recapitalizations, there's a lotof things we can do inside of
the capital structure withoutnecessarily losing control of
the asset.
Hutch The Marine Investor (46:22):
Man, that is, that's phenomenal, man.
You have multiple exit strategy,which is really good for
investors.
Now man, I wanna be mindful ofyour time.
I've got a couple more minutesleft here before we have to go
prep for your live events.
And I, I want just dive into thefocus round, which is just focus
acronym.
Okay?
What do you do for fun whenyou're not managing capital and
recording podcasts?
Michael Pouliot (46:45):
we're, running live workshops or, doing
coaching calls?
Yeah, I would say, I, everymorning, I for a walk for about
two hours before my family wakesup and I live, in Boulder,
Colorado, right, next to theFoothills So I get a great view
and.
These last couple weeks, there'sbeen like a herd of, deer that
(47:05):
have been grazing right near myhouse.
And so every day I get to seethem, doing their thing and I
get to walk by before the suncomes up.
So I would say that's, exercise,hiking, that sort of thing,
getting outside, getting awayfrom my computer and all of
these, things that are buzzingaround me.
Hutch The Marine Investor (47:22):
Man, that, that is cool.
I just returned from Australiaand they had kangaroos.
Over there walking around likedeer.
I thought it was weird.
I thought I had to go to the zooto see kangaroos.
You gotta be
Michael Pouliot (47:30):
careful, right?
You gotta be careful.
One of them might punch you inthe face or whatever.
Or kick you in the face.
Hutch The Marine Investor (47:35):
So we went close, take some pictures,
but they were actually morescared of us than they trying to
fight.
Okay.
Alright.
There you go.
So the, oh, opportunities, man.
What, was one, career definingopportunity that changed your
trajectory?
Michael Pouliot (47:51):
You know, it's always really hard, uh, to
connect the dots on the, youknow, going, you know, forward.
Right?
You only really see'em on theway back.
Right.
So I met my wife, senior year ofcollege.
And my intention prior tomeeting her, was I was gonna
fly, I was gonna go to SoutheastAsia and teach English and
travel.
I.
(48:12):
and backpack throughout, Europeor whatever.
And, that probably would'vetaken me off of the path that I
was on, which was ultimatelylanded me at JP Morgan.
And then, into consulting andinto real estate.
It's like the butterfly effect.
And I was, I met my wife abirthday party, that was a
friend of a friend.
I was almost not gonna go.
(48:33):
And so the fact that I managedto get off the couch that night,
to go to that party.
Meet my future wife.
and, and then, progress throughthe next 15 years.
I think that was, that wasprobably the most defining,
point of my life, was meeting mywife and, going to that party.
(48:53):
and, that one thing changing.
I probably would be in a totallydifferent place.
I.
I don't know if that wasbusiness related, but that's
awesome because
Hutch The Marine Investor (49:00):
it, set the foundation for almost
everything else and to, to ushaving this conversation at this
point about an amazing business.
And we're happily
Michael Pouliot (49:06):
married now when we're three kids in fourth
on the way, coming here in July.
So we're, busy.
Busy
Hutch The Marine Investor (49:12):
man.
Congratulations, man.
So we got three more questionsfor focus round.
We got what?
Two minutes to do it?
Less than two minutes.
Okay.
Michael Pouliot (49:18):
Alright.
Hutch The Marine Investor (49:19):
Now so communication.
what's your number one rule whencommunicating complex deal to
investors?
Michael Pouliot (49:26):
yeah, we have a one pager and we have a pitch
deck.
Okay.
and I, we try to come up withthe three to five most important
things that we feel like, aregonna resonate with investors
when we put those front andcenter.
Hutch The Marine Investor (49:36):
Keep it simple.
All right.
What is one thing you wish morepassive investors understood?
before placing capital?
Michael Pouliot (49:45):
Real estate is a long game, and you should not
expect to double your moneyevery two or three years.
Hutch The Marine Investor (49:51):
Last one to what do you attribute
your success?
Michael Pouliot (49:55):
I think getting up every day and doing the work.
Hutch The Marine Investor (49:59):
Man, that's freaking awesome, man,
Michael, it's been a phenomenalpleasure, man.
Um, you know, how can ourlisteners, if listeners want to
get into your ecosystem, what isthe best way for them to get in
touch with you?
Michael Pouliot (50:10):
Sure.
So you can, uh, if you're, uh,an LP or you're someone who
wants to get on our, uh,newsletter, I recommend you go
to investwithcarbon.com.
Uh, and if you are, uh, notquite there, but you wanna learn
how to do it yourself, Irecommend you go to skool.com.
That's S K O O l.com.
Uh, and then look up the dealmaker, fast Track, uh, and
(50:31):
you'll find our community.
We've got, we just passedthrough 2000 members.
We started this community inJanuary.
So we've seen some prettytremendous growth in the last 90
days, and we're shooting to getto 10,000 by the end of June.
Oh, wow.
So, uh, hopefully some of yourlisteners can be part of that
journey and it's completelyfree.
Uh, and, uh, I do calls everysingle day in there.
So if you wanna talk to me, uh,you can get me, uh, right there
(50:54):
for free.
Hutch The Marine Investor (50:55):
Man.
That is awesome, man.
Michael, you know, thank you somuch for sharing your journey
from your, you know, job site,private equity, and all the
insights in between.
You know, you, you've shown thatinnovation, legacy and education
can and should exist in the sameecosystem.
You know, for the listeners, Iwant to thank you again for
listening to another episode ofthe Multifamily Real Estate
(51:16):
Experiment podcast.
If you found value in today'sepisode.
Feel free to leave us a, youknow, five star ratings and a
good review.
Right.
Until next time, you know, keepowning more of America.
And this is Hutch the MarineInvestor out.
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