February 20, 2025 • 48 mins
Divorce is never just about legal proceedings—it’s an emotional battlefield. In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Robert Goldman, a seasoned attorney-turned-psychologist specializing in forensic evaluations, child custody cases, and court-ordered therapy. We dive into the complexities of the legal system, parental accountability, and how to manage expectations when seeking justice in court.
We also discuss the emotional toll of high-conflict divorces, the role of parental influence on children, and the healing journey post-divorce. Dr. Goldman offers his expert insights on narcissistic abuse, the power of resiliency, and why some people struggle to move forward while others thrive.
Episode Highlights:
[00:02] - Introducing Dr. Robert Goldman and his unique background in law and psychology.
[02:21] - Holding an ex-spouse accountable—what happens when court orders aren’t followed?
[03:25] - Managing expectations in the legal system and why “justice” isn’t always what people think.
[04:59] - How should a targeted parent respond when children are manipulated against them?
[06:14] - The danger of labels like "manipulation" and "narcissistic abuse"—why critical thinking is key.
[10:21] - The emotional toll of family court and why many feel re-traumatized.
[15:24] - Why even "amicable" divorces can feel like moral violations and trigger intense emotions.
[22:47] - Can trauma from a divorce physically change your brain? Dr. Goldman explains the science behind it.
[32:30] - How do you prove harassment in court? The importance of unbiased evidence.
[37:00] - The shifting role of fathers in custody battles—what changed since the 70s?
[41:57] - The power of healing: why some choose growth and others stay stuck.
[44:55] - Finding meaning in suffering—how trauma can lead to personal transformation.
Links & Resources:
📞 Contact Dr. Robert Goldman: 631-499-7500
📖 Man’s Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl – A must-read on resilience and finding purpose in suffering
Be sure to follow, share, and leave a comment if this show resonates with you! Send me a message at podpage.com/themusicoflife to share your experiences, or to leave a comment. I'd love to feature it in a future episode.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Caryn Portnoy (00:02):
Hi everyone, and welcome to the music of Life.
I'm your host. Karen Portnoy,before I get into this episode,
please comment, ask questions,share some of your experiences,
and don't forget to subscribe.
Hi everyone. Welcome back to themusic of life. I'm here with a
(00:26):
very special guest. Dr RobertGoldman, and I'm going to let
him introduce himself. Go ahead.
Dr Goldman, thanks.
Dr. Robert Goldman (00:32):
So first of all, I want to thank you for
inviting me on this podcast. Iam all about, you know,
resiliency and making music oflife, even if things are
challenging at times, I'velearned that both as an attorney
and a psychologist, I was alawyer, first doing criminal
(00:54):
law, family law, representingchildren in family court and
matrimonial proceedings. Then Iwent back to school, and I got
my doctorate in psychology,where later I would become the
supervising psychologist for theprobation department and the
jails and the clinics. And nowI'm in my private practice,
(01:17):
where the majority that I dealwith are forensics. So that
involves things like childcustody evaluations. It also
involves court ordered therapy,parenting coordination, also
therapeutic visitation.
Wonderful.
Caryn Portnoy (01:35):
I'm so happy you're here, and I appreciate
your time. I wanted to ask whatI keep hearing throughout, and I
have a very strong presence onFacebook and a lot of these
divorce groups, and I'm reachingover 300,000 people. So I read a
lot of people's comments andposts, and I share my thoughts
(01:55):
and opinions on them equally,but there's this resounding
theme of, how do you hold yourex spouse accountable when court
you know, makes decisions aboutthings, whether it's a financial
thing, like, like a spouserefuses to maintain the status
the financial status quo in thehome. How do you hold them
(02:17):
accountable when, when a judgesays that they have to keep it
up, but then they choose not to.
So
Dr. Robert Goldman (02:22):
I think, you know, and I deal with that
frustration a lot. I mean, Ithink it goes with people's
expectations of the Americanlegal system. I'm working on a
book called The American lethalsystem, because people have
these grandiose andexpectations. They're not even
(02:43):
grandiose. They're they'reexpected that they're going to
find justice, which is somewhatreasonable. I view it as
grandiose only because Irealized in my experience, it's
just not, it's not reasonable interms of my experience. You
know, nobody, nobody, includingboth parties, walks out of the
(03:03):
courtroom and says, I foundjustice. I think that there's a
lot of frustration within thejustice system to by people,
both attorneys and litigants,who leave it feeling that, well,
that's not what I expect it tohappen.
Caryn Portnoy (03:22):
So how do you manage expectations? Well, I
Dr. Robert Goldman (03:25):
think that that is more so on. You know,
the people who leave, I mean,attorneys are sometimes, if
they're seasoned, they're usedto the disappointment. And I
think when you meet a client,particularly in a matrimonial
matter of divorce, you'remeeting them at an emotional
level, right? Like things havehappened. There's emotions of
(03:49):
betrayal, right? There'semotions of you know, a contract
that was predicated on love hasnow been broken, so it elicits
an emotional response, quiteunderstandably for a lot of
people, and I think that ourresponses as attorneys is to
(04:11):
make sure our clientsexpectations are within line of
what is reality. And if we if wetell our clients that they're
going to get X, Y and Z, andit's not realistic, it's going
to be a recipe for emotionaldamage and physical damage, and
(04:32):
it perpetuated cycle, becauseeach time they'll be thinking
that finally they're going toget their day in court, And that
leads to a lot ofdisappointment.
Caryn Portnoy (04:41):
Yeah, I hear that a lot, and I've experienced that
myself as well. So in a divorcecase where children are
manipulated against the otherparent, how should the targeted
parent behave towards thechildren to defend themselves?
Well,
Dr. Robert Goldman (04:59):
so. So you used a lot of loaded words right
there, right manipulated and andas a I have to approach every
case as a scientist and as adoctor and from an evidence
based approach, and I can't makeany biases in terms of any
(05:20):
assumptions that in fact, thechild is being manipulated. It
may very well be the case, andI'm not dismissing it, but if I
take on a case and I see that aparent comes and says, Well, the
father is just or the mother isjust manipulating the child
(05:41):
against me. Sometimes thatoversimplifies the problem. And
there are things that are verymuch become in the gray and
like. We don't like as humanbeings. We don't like to operate
in the grays. We like to thinkconcretely black and white,
right? Example, I am a huge Metsfan, therefore, anybody who's a
(06:02):
Yankee fan, I don't like now youunderstand the logic approach to
that, but that's the way itapplies.
Caryn Portnoy (06:11):
It applies to politics. It Right? I
Dr. Robert Goldman (06:14):
mean, yeah, we like to put things, people in
boxes, through labels, and thatcuts off any forms of the
opportunity to humanize theindividual, sure, right? I mean,
not to get too extreme, but Ithink it's important, you know,
what is it, during the times ofNazi Germany, they took away
(06:35):
their names and they gave themnumbers. And when you take away
a name and you give someone anumber and you label them as
such, you can dehumanize them,yes, and that takes away the
humanity of the individual, andit prevents any opportunity to
promote healing. And when I dealwith a case where there is a
(06:56):
suspicion of manipulation, toget back to your answer, I
believe you need to take anapproach that is very much a
family systems approach thatholds everybody accountable for
their own behavior, right? Sothat, you know, I'm constantly
assessing and reassessing andchecking for my own biases and
(07:18):
creating hypotheses, right of,how is this child refusing or to
go along with, let's say, aparent. You know, what is it? Is
there manipulation? Or does thechild have their own issues and
things like that? What has thechild seen? What has the child
lived with? Where is the childdevelopmentally at one of the
(07:40):
things I always like to testwhen I have cases to repair
relationships, I'll say to bothparents, and it's sort of like a
test, Solomon test, I'll say tothem, are you willing to or you
have to be willing to sit in myoffice on my couch and say to
The child in front of me thatit's very important that you
(08:03):
have a healthy relationship withmommy and daddy. And if one
parent barks at it, you know,everything is diagnostic, right?
So you know, if two parentscan't sit alone in a room
together and find a peacefulsolution where they feel not
anxious, they don't feel bad intheir bellies and all of that.
(08:24):
If they're able to do that, thenmy prognosis for repairing a
relationship is much better,because I know the families can
work together if, on the otherhand, one parent says I can't
even sit in a room with him,justified or not, because there
could be many reasons, such asdomestic violence and trauma.
(08:44):
I'm not judging the reasons forthat parent not willing to sit
in the room. That's veryimportant, right? But again,
that I know from my years ofexperience and the research says
that that will make my job thatmuch harder. So I think words
like manipulation, words likeparent alienation syndrome, all
(09:06):
of these words are labels thatmay very well, you know, have a
grain of truth or be 100% butwhen we fall into the trap of
having labels, which is what thelegal system wants to do is
like, label people, andtherefore, if so, then, you
know, life is just so much morecomplicated than that. Sure.
(09:27):
Yeah, a lot of, lot ofvariables. Yeah. I mean, I say
that I deal with the after birthof the legal system. I see what
comes out. I see thedisappointment that you spoke
of. I see the people who areangry and said I didn't get my
justice in court, yeah, how comehe or she's not in jail? How
come he continues to manipulateand nobody seems to care? Yeah?
(09:50):
I mean, that's a resoundingthought, yeah. And I think that,
you know, I work with clientswho have or are frustrated, and.
And you know, there are thingslike mindfulness, radical
acceptance, all these things inour toolbox that I think we as
psychologists need to help ourclients with in navigating the
(10:14):
legal system and as attorneys,we also have to do the same by
making sure the expectations arerealistic, which
Caryn Portnoy (10:21):
is sometimes really, really hard to do. It's
really hard to
Dr. Robert Goldman (10:25):
do because every judge, right? I mean, I've
heard this say that before, likewhen you look at Justice,
Justice has, you know, as manycourtrooms there are, there are
different systems of justice. Sowhat you know, we're all human,
right? We're not judges. Arenot, you know, AI. So when you
(10:45):
go into one courtroom, you mightwind up with one result, as
opposed to a different judge,who will have a very different
look at things. There's so manyvariables that are not within
your control. So when you youknow, we have outsourced our
means to resolve conflict,right. For better, for worse, we
(11:07):
have relied on attorneyspsychologists to tell people
that you know we'll fix youryour conflict. But often I'll
say to both husband and or wife,father or mother, I'll say,
Where were you when you gavebirth to your child? Oh, I was
(11:27):
in the operating room, or I wasin the room. The father will say
the same thing, I was there whenmy son came out. Where are you
when decisions are being madeabout parenting? Oh, I'm in the
back, or I'm in the hallway, andmy lawyer tells me this is the
way it's going to be so andlook, I operate in that system.
(11:51):
That's the way the system is.
But when you think about it,it's a very disempowering model,
right? It's, it's what it saysis that you can't settle this on
your own. You need to becoddled. We need to solve it for
you. But at the end of the day,what are we doing? At one time a
man and a woman got togetherwhere there was some intimacy,
(12:16):
some love, something thatcreated this child, but now
we're outsourcing it and givingthe power over to strangers like
me, dictating what their futureand destiny is, and that is
really set up for disaster,disappointment and frustration,
because judges have so manycases on their calendar, and to
(12:40):
expect that they think abouttheir cases as much as you're
thinking about your own case andhow much this affects your life
every day. Yeah, it's not fairfor you know, it's just not
realistic, nor is necessary fairto think that judges go home
every day with the burdens thatyou carry, on a personal level,
(13:00):
they be burnt out, right? Youknow, there's a thing about
boundaries, right, that that wehave to set the work that I do
is very emotionally toxic forme. I get, you know, people who
are angry or hate filled, whowant to blame me, who want to
blame the justice system, andoften that removes any
(13:22):
accountability or anyresponsibility for their own
behavior. And I take it on. IfI'm not, if I don't get my own
help, I take it on and I, youknow, I want to have a drink. I
want to, you know, just yell andvent. I can't sleep at night
thinking about, is this oneokay? Is that one okay? So we
(13:44):
all need to set our ownboundaries.
Caryn Portnoy (13:48):
I think a lot of like coming from the couples,
and I feel like if they wereable to work all this stuff out
themselves, they would. But Ithink a lot of what breaks down
in a marriage is communicationand being on the same side and
putting the kids needs ahead oftheir arguments and absolutely
Dr. Robert Goldman (14:08):
all those Absolutely, if they could do it,
they would. They would. And theproblem is all those things that
you talk about, what prevents itfrom happening in many times,
not all cases, is the emotionalbrain is running away. You know,
when moral violations occur.
Social psychologist by the nameof Jonathan H, a, i, d, T, talks
(14:29):
about it in terms of moralfoundations theory, when
morality is violated, ittriggers an emotional response
that therefore triggers,triggers the what we call the
amygdala, the limbic system, theseptum, all these things are
responsible for making knee jerkreactions. So when, and this is
(14:53):
evolutionary right, because wedidn't have time to think. Or
engage the prefrontal cortex,which is responsible for
thinking. If I do this, whatwill be the natural
consequences? So when we'reengaged in a conflict where
morality has been violated, itsets off the emotional brain,
(15:15):
which can result in irrationalthoughts followed by irrational
behavior,
Caryn Portnoy (15:24):
right? Talking about an a moral split, you
know, where that's not the case,nobody cheated, or anything like
that, where it's just the loveisn't there anymore, and there
was a breakdown in communicationand having needs met, and you
know, all the things that keep amarriage together when that
falls apart and it's not thereanymore, it's not like one can
(15:48):
blame the other for somethingimmoral. It's just it ran its
course and it's time to move on.
But
Dr. Robert Goldman (15:53):
I would say it is moral for some, because it
would be based on almost like acontract, right? A contract of
trust, right? So everybody'sdifferent, but if they perceive
the the breakdown of themarriage can still be seen as a
moral violation, because it'spredicated on a an agreement of
(16:15):
working together and raising afamily. The reason why these why
morality elicits such a visceralresponse is because it was
necessary for survival. Soliving together is so necessary
for survival. The Law of 151thing that is really
(16:38):
interesting, the research showsthat our brain size is relative
to how much we can live as acommunity, and our brain side,
at max, can have 150connections, and that's
necessary to be a huntergatherer, right? We're not the
strongest, we're not thefastest, but together, when we
live as a community, we canhunt, right? We can surround an
(17:00):
animal, right? When that isbroken, it does elicit an
emotional response, regardlessof the moral violation of, let's
say, cheating, right? And then
Caryn Portnoy (17:10):
I wonder, like, you know, there's so much I know
in today's world, in today'ssociety, there is mostly two
income homes where both parentsare working full time and
they're earning what they'reearning and and there's more of
an equal distribution ofresponsibility in that regard,
right? But when, let's say thehusband works full time and the
(17:32):
wife is a stay at home mom, justnaturally, the husband isn't as
involved, because the wife ishome and she's handling
everything about the kid andyeah, and school and activities
and all that stuff, plusmanaging a household and plus
everything else that they do fortheir life together, there's a
big imbalance in responsibilityand who makes decisions and
(17:54):
who's hands on and who's not. Sowhen there's that disruption and
equilibrium in a marriage, youknow? I feel like it tends to
lead to a bad place, you know,yeah,
Dr. Robert Goldman (18:06):
and I think, I mean, this is my own personal
beliefs. I'll share it. I don'tthink taking care of children,
raising them, being there forthem because of male or female,
isn't it's not respective andnot respected enough as such a
valuable piece. I agree, becauseas a as a psychologist, we know
(18:28):
from the research that, youknow, children are better off
when they have that parent thatcan do all those things. Yeah,
it's a resilience factor to havea parent that can help that
child along the way be there forthem.
Caryn Portnoy (18:42):
That note, I read a study that said that the way
to tell if a child will thriveis based on the mother's
happiness. Have you heard thator read that?
Dr. Robert Goldman (18:52):
I haven't necessarily heard that. I'm not
surprised by that, but I thinkthat if a mother or a father are
under stress, okay? And thereis, let's say they're a victim
of domestic violence, right?
That's whether the child viewsit or not. That's going to
disrupt that parent's ability,yes, to be an effective parent
(19:16):
and an effective human being. Sohappy parents, you know,
definitely help the childrenthrive. You know, what's funny
is, when I was a little boy inmy room, was children learn what
they live right, or live whatthey learn, learn what they live
right. And I had this, and Ibought, I recently bought, like
(19:38):
you can find it online, I boughtit. It's a whole but it's all
different. It's like 10 things,you know? It's so cute, and it's
so basic, and it's still sotrue, that children are like
sponges, right? And they pick upon the the happiness or sadness.
You. Of parents, and a lot oftimes when parents don't get
(20:01):
along and there's tension in thehouse all the time, they assume
the role of what we call thepleaser and appeaser, where they
have to hope that the parentsare not going to fight or argue
in front of them and have batsin their stomach every time
their parents are around eachother, right? And obviously
(20:22):
that's going to have negativeramifications for their own
future development and how theyview relation.
Caryn Portnoy (20:32):
I agree, unfortunately, I agree with
that. Spoke to a teacherrecently who said to me, though,
in her experience as a teacher,not as a psychologist or
anything, but she was sayingthat what children learn first,
they learn best. And it sat withme because, you know, I would
like to think that in a happierchildhood and a happier time in
(20:54):
the home and all of that, thatthey remember that, but I don't
know that they do
Dr. Robert Goldman (20:59):
well. I think, you know, that's a good
that's a very good statement. Weknow there are critical periods
within the brain where they'remore receptive to learn things,
for example, language, right? Soyou teach a child two languages
at an early age, they're goingto be able to remember that and
(21:20):
develop that, as opposed to ifthey were to learn that much
later in life, you know, andalso when we are exposed to a
traumatic event, and be itdomestic violence, be it verbal
abuse, be whatever that sticksin our brain more than The good
things, right? Does it depend onage? No, it really well. It
(21:45):
depends on age. The younger youare, the less, as I said before,
the less developed your yourprefrontal cortex is. It doesn't
fully develop until you're 24but the way the brain is wired
is that you have the emotionalbrain, which I talked about, but
right next to the emotionalbrain, behind it, is what's
called the hippocampus, and thehippocampus is responsible for
(22:09):
learning. So when you take it,it's like you take the emotional
brain and let's say this is it,and then you wrap it around or
close to the hippocampus. Thehippocampus re remembers. It
remembers the emotional event,and that, again, is adaptive,
because we don't, you know,we're wired to discount the
(22:32):
positive and focus on thenegative, which is not good for
our mental health, right? Butwe're the reason why we're wired
to focus on the negative isbecause if we focus on the
negative, we can avoid thosenegative things that may be a
threat to
Caryn Portnoy (22:47):
us. Interesting.
So I've been hearing a lot aboutwhat trauma in a divorce can do
to your brain in terms of andI'm just going to say this is
something I've heard just, youknow, read amongst the people on
these divorce groups, right?
They talk about narcissisticabuse and what that does to
(23:09):
their brain. And I keep hearingthat it affects your brain
physically. And, you know, theoverload of cortisol and
affecting the hippocampus andall of these things, and you
know is that something that youcan heal from.
Dr. Robert Goldman (23:25):
So I think the that the court system and
how we deal with the adversarialapproach is a very stressful,
traumatic experience for many ofus. I mean, I hear so many
people who I work with say theyhate going to court. It's so
(23:46):
it's like, re traumatizing allthe time comes in, yeah, it
comes in waves. Like, first theyget to court, they they're sick
to their stomach, they show up,and they're usually
disappointed. Nothing happens.
And then then the wave, youknow, quiets downs until the
next court date that comes upwith more expectations, and then
followed by disappointment,right? So one of the things that
(24:08):
you know the trauma and how thebrain is affected, yeah, I, I
think that past trauma ofrelationships and people have
problems calling it trauma incertain sex, because they say,
Well, what are you talkingabout? Trauma is more like
wartime, right? Like that'strauma, but I call it any life,
(24:30):
you know, stressful life eventthat is unable to be processed
within your body and to be, youknow, and that still holds you
back. It to me, trauma is prettyit's us what is kind of
subjective in a way, the DSM gotrid of the reasonable person
standard and cause it now asubjective standard, yeah, so
(24:53):
that's good and bad, because itopens up the floodgates for what
one person calls. Traumatic.
Another person callsexhilarating. You know, it's
like, oh, I have to speak infront of people. That's very
traumatic for me, right? Otherswould say, I love to speak in
front of me. So what istraumatic now is somewhat
(25:14):
relative, yeah. But getting backto your your question is, you
mentioned the label again,narcissist, and I'm not saying
that narcissism does not exist.
I'm just again saying Howhelpful is it to label somebody
that in terms of your ability tonavigate what you're doing? It
(25:35):
might be helpful if it leads toacceptance. In other words,
let's say I have a child who hasa parent who may have mental
illness, right? And they're notgoing to change. It's like a
physical illness. It's likehaving cancer, okay? And you say
(25:55):
to to the child. Listen, thismay be your expectations that
your dad is going to be able tohave a catch with you, but
because he has cancer, he's tooweak to have a catch. So lower
your expectations withoutresentment. Can you do that? And
(26:17):
that's what relationships,marriage and everything. This
may sound very cynical, but Ibelieve relationships are like a
limbo, right? How low can yougo, lowering your expectations
without resentment? You know, isit
Caryn Portnoy (26:34):
the same, though, when somebody has a physical
disability versus a personalitydisorder?
Dr. Robert Goldman (26:39):
Okay? Well, the great question, is it the
same when somebody has aphysical disability, as opposed
to personality disorder? Well,personality disorder, by
definition, under the DSM, issomething that is not likely, is
doesn't change. It's constant.
It's who they are as a person,correct, right? So how you
approach it, if you say this iswho they are, and you believe
(27:02):
they have a personalitydisorder, then you have to
what's your alternative? I mean,you have to behave accordingly.
You have to exactly work withwhat you have and Right, right?
But when you know where thingsgo awry is where you use a label
to avoid any accountability orresponsibility for your
(27:26):
behavior, and you say, oh, thatperson is just a narcissist. I
didn't do anything wrong. I'mnot saying that's in every case.
It's like any type of label yougive people and therefore you
take away any responsibility youhave for your own behavior by
labeling them as such.
Caryn Portnoy (27:47):
I'm gonna over generalize for a second, just
based on what I read in thesecomments and stuff. But it seems
to me that a lot of men who calltheir ex wives narcissists are
the ones that primarily areescaping accountability. I find
that, for the most part, thewomen who are calling their ex
(28:08):
husbands narcissists are justtrying to survive and trying to
figure out, how do I navigatethis? How do I behave? How do I
defend my right to live? Youknow, it's a very different
dynamic,
Dr. Robert Goldman (28:21):
right? And you bring up a really good
point. You said, this is thesample that you're getting. So
that would be a reallyinteresting topic to read, to
study. Yeah, you know you haveto get a fair sample size,
though, because you knoweverybody, like from father's
rights advocates from all thesedifferent groups do have their
(28:45):
own agenda, because they have,in their opinion, been wronged
by the and they pick upsomewhere and then. So, you know
again, and I'm not dismissingthem, because they may be
helpful for people, but when weput ourselves in silos, which is
what the world is now, right?
We're gonna have our our bias,and then we're gonna find
(29:06):
anybody who supports our belief,and if that person does not feel
supported, they'll just findanother Facebook group, or
they're gonna find anotherorganization or TV channel or
show that speaks to them andthat will perpetuate in
psychology, we call it a bias, acognitive bias, right? And you
(29:30):
know, when we have these biases,we want to look for evidence
that supports these biases andthrow away the ones that that
don't I mean, again, gettingback to my previous point, we
don't like to be in the grace.
We don't like to thinkcritically. And it's my job as a
(29:53):
forensic psychologist to thinkcritically, to take hypotheses,
to listen to what. Everybody hasto say and test it against the
other evidence that I have. Andalways question, am I being
biased in any way myself? I
Caryn Portnoy (30:11):
mean, I would think the answer is yes, in most
cases, like everybody has abias, right? I
Dr. Robert Goldman (30:16):
think everybody has their own bias.
Everything. Everybody comes tothe table with life experiences,
and they're only looking atthings. I think the only way to
defend against biases is toacknowledge our own and try to
make sure we're doing our best.
One of the great things is Ihave people I work with, and I
want to always test, you know,and ask them what they think
(30:40):
understood,
Caryn Portnoy (30:43):
what circumstances would would you be
able to prove that an ex spouseis harassing you in court? Like,
how do you how do you provethat?
Dr. Robert Goldman (30:52):
Well, so, how can you prove that an ex
spouse is harassing you? I mean,usually that's proven in court
through more collateralinformation, more evidence that
is not subject to, you know,what he or she said in terms of
(31:13):
what the person is reporting,but clear cut, You know, videos
or you know, clear cut evidencethat's that speaks for itself.
Whenever I do an evaluation, Ilook for what's called
convergent validity, and that'sa term used to help us say, like
(31:36):
you know, are do we get hospitalrecords? Do are we getting
collateral sources who may notbe biased, right? Or are we
getting all the information fromeverybody out there that then
comes together to load on acertain variable, right? It
can't be a he said, she said,game, because, again,
(31:59):
understandably, those partiesare biased. But if we can
really, I try my best to get asmany outside sources that are
corroborative of what one personis saying, and that does not
have a bias one way or theother, so things like pediatric
records, right speaking todoctors, you know, again, even
(32:23):
speaking to therapists, they maythey have their own relationship
with that patient. Sounderstandably, they have their
own bias, right?
Caryn Portnoy (32:30):
So it has to be somebody who doesn't know or
isn't invested in both parties,right?
Dr. Robert Goldman (32:36):
I try to say that the less emotional and the
less anybody has to gain inspeaking to me, the more the
more valid or more reliable. Butagain, you want to make sure it
adds up, right? Okay,
Caryn Portnoy (32:51):
I was thinking about this before, like back in
the 70s and 80s, when coupleswere going through divorce. I
think typically, it's safe tosay that the mother usually had
the children, and the mother andthe children stayed in the home
and the father moved out.
Totally generalizing, but thatwas kind of the temperature it
was the 70s and 80s,
Dr. Robert Goldman (33:13):
right? That was under what's called the
tender years presumption, andthat the mother was, you know,
suited and fit to to havecustody. It was almost like you
started off with thatpresumption, right?
Caryn Portnoy (33:27):
So cut to now, where a father can remain in the
home with the children and themother moves out. What happened
between then and now? Whatcaused
Dr. Robert Goldman (33:39):
that? I mean, I think some of the things
that have happened is, there hasbeen some research saying that
the importance that fathers havein involvement in the children's
life. There's some research tosuggest that I think women and
men both have become seen moreas equals in terms of, you know,
(34:00):
both having the ability and orthe obligation to work, and I
think that there's been a changealong the way. I think it was
2007 don't quote me on this inNew York, specifically, the law
was changed where lawyersattorneys for the children. So I
(34:21):
started off first when I was alaw guardian. And law guardians
were charged with recommendingwhat they feel is in their best
interests. And ironically, Iwent the reason why I went back
to school to get my doctorate inpsychology, one of the reasons
was I would say, what does alawyer know about the best
interests, right? What does achild do too, right, right? So
(34:45):
then I come out of school lateron, and I find out there's been
a shift. No longer are lawyersadvocating for best interests.
They're advocating for expressedinterests. Now that. But again,
life is not black and white, andnow we've gone to the point
where, you know a lawyer is evenif a lawyer disagrees with the
(35:12):
best interests, with that thisdecision that the child is
expressing, they still have theobligation do zealously lawyers?
They've taken out the zealouspart for lawyers, but the the
attorney for the the child nowhas an obligation to zealously
(35:32):
represent what their child orclient wants, I should say. And
here becomes, you know thatdoesn't make the best
psychological sense, because,you know, children don't lack
the capacity to enter intocontracts. They lack the
capacity to go off to war. Theylack the capacity to vote, write
(35:54):
a Will they like, the capacityto vote, to smoke cigarettes,
all of this, you know, and nowyou're asking them to chime in
and give weight to a decisionthat will have long lasting
effects on their sense of, youknow, future, that's heavy,
(36:14):
that's heavy. And what I noticehappens with this shift is that
children now become in themiddle of the conflict, and they
become empowered. And you haveconstantly bargaining, right? So
you'll have one parent say, nowyou're right in the middle of
the conflict, and one parentwill now try to push the other
(36:36):
child in the child into choosemy side, you know, because now
you can be on my side, becausenow you have a lawyer who will
fight for me, right by fightingfor you, right? So that's not
fair to the child,
Caryn Portnoy (36:53):
and in saying that the parent wants the child
to choose them, this is wherethe manipulation plays into
Dr. Robert Goldman (37:00):
well, obviously that thing can a child
is then can be manipulated,
Caryn Portnoy (37:05):
sure they get spoiled, and I'll buy you
whatever you want. And right? Soit
Dr. Robert Goldman (37:10):
becomes, it becomes problematic when you
give a child so much power tomake a decision that,
unfortunately, the parentscan't, right. So
Caryn Portnoy (37:21):
my, my next question, which plays into this
is, I believe in New York,children are allowed to make
this decision as of 12 years oldand higher. Is that correct? You
Dr. Robert Goldman (37:31):
know, I That's news to me. I mean, I
don't. I googled it. I don't, Idon't see a law. I don't there.
I'm not aware of a law that saysa child at 12, then can make a
decision. I don't know whereit's in the Family Court Act. I
haven't seen it anywhere. I'mwriting an article called to
(37:52):
substitute or not substitute.
That is the question, because anAFC, the attorney for the child,
can make a substitute andsubstitute judgment when the
child lacks capacity, or they'replacing their decision is
placing them in imminent harm.
So there, there are times whenattorneys for children don't
(38:12):
like to do that, because thehigher courts can often come
down very hard on them. They canget sanctioned if they don't
represent what their clientwants, right? It's very murky,
yeah, different systems ofjudgment. So attorneys for
children are put in a veryprecarious position,
Caryn Portnoy (38:31):
you know? Okay, so if it's not law that children
can decide for themselves from12 on, let's just say, for
argument's sake, that that'strue, if you're saying that a
child's brain isn't fully formeduntil they're 24 Correct, right?
How do they know what's in theirbest interest? Right?
Dr. Robert Goldman (38:50):
Right? So, so the theory is that the judge
will determine the the bestinterests, right? That the judge
is the arbiter of what the bestinterest is, after hearing from
the attorney for the child, youknow, and everybody else and the
respective attorneys. But look,that's our system. Now, I always
(39:11):
feel we pendulate from onesystem to another, and, you
know, we go from one extreme tothe other. The thing is, we
don't react. We overreact. Well,
Caryn Portnoy (39:23):
I think the time for reacting is during the
marriage, before there's adivorce, and when those
reactions aren't worked out,then it becomes overreacting,
because what choices? Bingo.
Dr. Robert Goldman (39:35):
That's right. And if children learn
what they live and if they see amarriage that is not functional
and conflict is resolved byfighting, arguing and hitting,
they will then live that lifetoo. So it starts with us,
because we as parents are rolemodels for how our children are
(39:58):
going to navigate conflict.
Conflict in their future on theplayground and everything else.
So
Caryn Portnoy (40:04):
personally, my divorce is now officially done,
and I've been out of the houseand I'm healing and all of this
stuff, I would say that who I amnow, as opposed to during the
divorce, is night and day. Imean, totally night and day. How
do you help support your yourpatients into healing instead of
(40:25):
just living the rest of theirlife, hating their ex and doing
nothing to help themselves bebetter? I think
Dr. Robert Goldman (40:32):
a lot of it, part of it, is what we call
psycho education. We have to,like, provide our clients with
what will happen if theycontinue down this road, as far
as for their own mental health,their physical health, and their
children, most of all, so youhave to motivate. You know, a
client that they can see howthey're operating is not good
(40:54):
for themselves. You know, themotivation is key, and the most
important thing in working withclients is developing a good
therapeutic alliance and beingempathic to what they're going
through and acknowledging it,but at the same time offering
them real, substantive tools.
You know, you got through this,right and along the way, I mean,
(41:16):
and so you are there for theembodiment of resiliency? Yes,
right. And you had some riskfactors and resilient factors,
and I think we need to build upthe resilience factors that made
you get through this and try toaddress the risk factors that
the, for example, the traumaexperienced and going through
(41:40):
the court system, the stressfulevents, the life events that
even came before this. And howdo you minimize that and
maximize the resilient factorsthat are in all of us? Right? We
are innately resilient.
Otherwise we wouldn't be
Caryn Portnoy (41:57):
here. And I'm glad you said that, because in
all of these groups that I'm in,and you know, I've gotten such
positive feedback about how myperspective is so unique, how I
pose the most thought provokingquestions to the group, and how
I've driven people to tearsbecause what I say is exactly
(42:18):
what they needed to hear in thatmoment. And because of the fact
that I'm where I am right now,I'm using this platform in my
podcast to help and inspireother people to heal as well. So
I was called to tell my story,and after that, I'm now starting
the the journey of my healingand what I like. I mean, look,
(42:40):
I'm I'm not a professional. Idon't have any, you know,
psychology degrees or doctordoctorates or anything like
that. I'm a regular mom whosurvived a very, very toxic
divorce which was set to destroyme, and now I'm thriving. So I
have my experience to draw on,to provide credibility to my
(43:00):
audience, so that they know thatI've lived what they've lived,
and how I got out of it, and howI helped to heal myself. And I
just wonder if there's a bigenough group of people that are
driven and motivated to heal, ordo they kind of like they know
that the tools are there. Theyknow that they can help
(43:22):
themselves, but they choose notto, or they choose to be a
victim, or they choose to tokind of like, this is what
happened to me, and that's wherethey live for the rest of their
life.
Dr. Robert Goldman (43:33):
And I, I've seen that and and it's, it's
heartbreaking, yeah, becausethey're living a very toxic
life, and it's people like youthat can share your personal
narrative. You know, one of myfavorite books that I love for
all my patients to read is abook called Man Search for
Meaning by Victor Frankel, andhe's the father of positive
(43:56):
psychology, and he wrote how hewas able to find meaning behind
his suffering as he went throughthe Holocaust. Oh, wow. So one
of the thing Frankel says is,between everything, there is a
stimulus and a response, andbefore you respond, there's a
(44:17):
space. That space representsyour freedom, yeah, for how
you're going to respond. And youknow, that's a thing that I
think you know, really taking apause and engaging the
prefrontal cortex before we actout of emotion is a very
(44:38):
valuable life lesson and findingmeaning behind your suffering.
You know, to say, everythinghappens for a reason. I don't
believe it's necessarily true,but I do believe it's our job in
life to find the reason behindit. You know, that's the only
way you get through
Caryn Portnoy (44:55):
I'm at a point now where I can look to the
three and. Half years of hellthat I went through, and really
and truly was at the bottom ofthe barrel, like I was, I was
determined not to be broken, andI wasn't. And I rose from that.
But at the same time, it's likeI chose to heal. I CH, like i
(45:17):
Yes, well,
Dr. Robert Goldman (45:18):
that's the whole thing we go back to. And
you're empowered. The justicesystem is didn't heal you? No,
you healed from it. Yes, so thatthat's the whole thing, like
Caryn Portnoy (45:29):
now I can thank the whole experience, because I
would not be where I am now andwho I am now had I not gone
through that. And
Dr. Robert Goldman (45:36):
that's everybody's life story, right?
You come across a stressorevent, you have a choice. Are
you going to say, I'm going tofind meaning behind this, or am
I going to fall victim to it?
Yeah.
Caryn Portnoy (45:49):
I mean, while you're going through it,
there's, there's no way not toyou're a
Dr. Robert Goldman (45:53):
victim, so you're so hard. Yeah, you know?
So
Caryn Portnoy (45:57):
I applaud anybody who is brave enough to choose to
heal and choose to getthemselves out of it and move
forward,
Dr. Robert Goldman (46:05):
yeah?
Because it's not easy. I marvelat those people. Yeah, so I
marvel at you. Thank
Caryn Portnoy (46:10):
you. Thank you very much. I'm very humbled
quiet. I'm very grateful forwhere I am right now. I all I
want to do is help other people.
And you know, I know how hard itis to get out of it, and the
fact that I was able to heal atthe same time that I was being
abused is like, like, thatdoesn't happen. I I am very
aware I'm a unicorn in thisspace, but, but I feel like I
(46:32):
have something to offer peopleto help them, you know, move
forward. So on that note, Ithink we're coming up to our
time, unless there's anythingelse that you want to share,
just personally or otherwise. Ifany
Dr. Robert Goldman (46:47):
you know, again, this is a real difficult,
stressful time, and if anybodyyou know, I have a great team
behind me that really helpspeople navigate through the
stressful life event that is,you know, divorce and or
separation and managing that ofthe collateral damage that's
left behind, if any way I canhelp the same way you like to
(47:11):
help it can reach me at 631 499,7500 just book an appointment
with me, my staff. And you know,hopefully we can offer you
support. I
Caryn Portnoy (47:24):
appreciate that, and I just want to thank you
again for being here and forgiving us your time and your
expertise, and I will speak toyou later.
Dr. Robert Goldman (47:34):
You got it.
Thank you. Thanks again. Bye.
Bye.
Caryn Portnoy (47:42):
Please. Join me every Thursday for a new
episode. If you'd like to reachout to me and ask questions or
share stories of your own, yourown experiences through any of
these things, I would love tohear from you. Please also
subscribe. You.
Hi everyone, and welcome to the music of Life.
I'm your host. Karen Portnoy,before I get into this episode,
please comment, ask questions,share some of your experiences,
and don't forget to subscribe.
Hi everyone. Welcome back to themusic of life. I'm here with a
(00:26):
very special guest. Dr RobertGoldman, and I'm going to let
him introduce himself. Go ahead.
Dr Goldman, thanks.
Dr. Robert Goldman (00:32):
So first of all, I want to thank you for
inviting me on this podcast. Iam all about, you know,
resiliency and making music oflife, even if things are
challenging at times, I'velearned that both as an attorney
and a psychologist, I was alawyer, first doing criminal
(00:54):
law, family law, representingchildren in family court and
matrimonial proceedings. Then Iwent back to school, and I got
my doctorate in psychology,where later I would become the
supervising psychologist for theprobation department and the
jails and the clinics. And nowI'm in my private practice,
(01:17):
where the majority that I dealwith are forensics. So that
involves things like childcustody evaluations. It also
involves court ordered therapy,parenting coordination, also
therapeutic visitation.
Wonderful.
Caryn Portnoy (01:35):
I'm so happy you're here, and I appreciate
your time. I wanted to ask whatI keep hearing throughout, and I
have a very strong presence onFacebook and a lot of these
divorce groups, and I'm reachingover 300,000 people. So I read a
lot of people's comments andposts, and I share my thoughts
(01:55):
and opinions on them equally,but there's this resounding
theme of, how do you hold yourex spouse accountable when court
you know, makes decisions aboutthings, whether it's a financial
thing, like, like a spouserefuses to maintain the status
the financial status quo in thehome. How do you hold them
(02:17):
accountable when, when a judgesays that they have to keep it
up, but then they choose not to.
So
Dr. Robert Goldman (02:22):
I think, you know, and I deal with that
frustration a lot. I mean, Ithink it goes with people's
expectations of the Americanlegal system. I'm working on a
book called The American lethalsystem, because people have
these grandiose andexpectations. They're not even
(02:43):
grandiose. They're they'reexpected that they're going to
find justice, which is somewhatreasonable. I view it as
grandiose only because Irealized in my experience, it's
just not, it's not reasonable interms of my experience. You
know, nobody, nobody, includingboth parties, walks out of the
(03:03):
courtroom and says, I foundjustice. I think that there's a
lot of frustration within thejustice system to by people,
both attorneys and litigants,who leave it feeling that, well,
that's not what I expect it tohappen.
Caryn Portnoy (03:22):
So how do you manage expectations? Well, I
Dr. Robert Goldman (03:25):
think that that is more so on. You know,
the people who leave, I mean,attorneys are sometimes, if
they're seasoned, they're usedto the disappointment. And I
think when you meet a client,particularly in a matrimonial
matter of divorce, you'remeeting them at an emotional
level, right? Like things havehappened. There's emotions of
(03:49):
betrayal, right? There'semotions of you know, a contract
that was predicated on love hasnow been broken, so it elicits
an emotional response, quiteunderstandably for a lot of
people, and I think that ourresponses as attorneys is to
(04:11):
make sure our clientsexpectations are within line of
what is reality. And if we if wetell our clients that they're
going to get X, Y and Z, andit's not realistic, it's going
to be a recipe for emotionaldamage and physical damage, and
(04:32):
it perpetuated cycle, becauseeach time they'll be thinking
that finally they're going toget their day in court, And that
leads to a lot ofdisappointment.
Caryn Portnoy (04:41):
Yeah, I hear that a lot, and I've experienced that
myself as well. So in a divorcecase where children are
manipulated against the otherparent, how should the targeted
parent behave towards thechildren to defend themselves?
Well,
Dr. Robert Goldman (04:59):
so. So you used a lot of loaded words right
there, right manipulated and andas a I have to approach every
case as a scientist and as adoctor and from an evidence
based approach, and I can't makeany biases in terms of any
(05:20):
assumptions that in fact, thechild is being manipulated. It
may very well be the case, andI'm not dismissing it, but if I
take on a case and I see that aparent comes and says, Well, the
father is just or the mother isjust manipulating the child
(05:41):
against me. Sometimes thatoversimplifies the problem. And
there are things that are verymuch become in the gray and
like. We don't like as humanbeings. We don't like to operate
in the grays. We like to thinkconcretely black and white,
right? Example, I am a huge Metsfan, therefore, anybody who's a
(06:02):
Yankee fan, I don't like now youunderstand the logic approach to
that, but that's the way itapplies.
Caryn Portnoy (06:11):
It applies to politics. It Right? I
Dr. Robert Goldman (06:14):
mean, yeah, we like to put things, people in
boxes, through labels, and thatcuts off any forms of the
opportunity to humanize theindividual, sure, right? I mean,
not to get too extreme, but Ithink it's important, you know,
what is it, during the times ofNazi Germany, they took away
(06:35):
their names and they gave themnumbers. And when you take away
a name and you give someone anumber and you label them as
such, you can dehumanize them,yes, and that takes away the
humanity of the individual, andit prevents any opportunity to
promote healing. And when I dealwith a case where there is a
(06:56):
suspicion of manipulation, toget back to your answer, I
believe you need to take anapproach that is very much a
family systems approach thatholds everybody accountable for
their own behavior, right? Sothat, you know, I'm constantly
assessing and reassessing andchecking for my own biases and
(07:18):
creating hypotheses, right of,how is this child refusing or to
go along with, let's say, aparent. You know, what is it? Is
there manipulation? Or does thechild have their own issues and
things like that? What has thechild seen? What has the child
lived with? Where is the childdevelopmentally at one of the
(07:40):
things I always like to testwhen I have cases to repair
relationships, I'll say to bothparents, and it's sort of like a
test, Solomon test, I'll say tothem, are you willing to or you
have to be willing to sit in myoffice on my couch and say to
The child in front of me thatit's very important that you
(08:03):
have a healthy relationship withmommy and daddy. And if one
parent barks at it, you know,everything is diagnostic, right?
So you know, if two parentscan't sit alone in a room
together and find a peacefulsolution where they feel not
anxious, they don't feel bad intheir bellies and all of that.
(08:24):
If they're able to do that, thenmy prognosis for repairing a
relationship is much better,because I know the families can
work together if, on the otherhand, one parent says I can't
even sit in a room with him,justified or not, because there
could be many reasons, such asdomestic violence and trauma.
(08:44):
I'm not judging the reasons forthat parent not willing to sit
in the room. That's veryimportant, right? But again,
that I know from my years ofexperience and the research says
that that will make my job thatmuch harder. So I think words
like manipulation, words likeparent alienation syndrome, all
(09:06):
of these words are labels thatmay very well, you know, have a
grain of truth or be 100% butwhen we fall into the trap of
having labels, which is what thelegal system wants to do is
like, label people, andtherefore, if so, then, you
know, life is just so much morecomplicated than that. Sure.
(09:27):
Yeah, a lot of, lot ofvariables. Yeah. I mean, I say
that I deal with the after birthof the legal system. I see what
comes out. I see thedisappointment that you spoke
of. I see the people who areangry and said I didn't get my
justice in court, yeah, how comehe or she's not in jail? How
come he continues to manipulateand nobody seems to care? Yeah?
(09:50):
I mean, that's a resoundingthought, yeah. And I think that,
you know, I work with clientswho have or are frustrated, and.
And you know, there are thingslike mindfulness, radical
acceptance, all these things inour toolbox that I think we as
psychologists need to help ourclients with in navigating the
(10:14):
legal system and as attorneys,we also have to do the same by
making sure the expectations arerealistic, which
Caryn Portnoy (10:21):
is sometimes really, really hard to do. It's
really hard to
Dr. Robert Goldman (10:25):
do because every judge, right? I mean, I've
heard this say that before, likewhen you look at Justice,
Justice has, you know, as manycourtrooms there are, there are
different systems of justice. Sowhat you know, we're all human,
right? We're not judges. Arenot, you know, AI. So when you
(10:45):
go into one courtroom, you mightwind up with one result, as
opposed to a different judge,who will have a very different
look at things. There's so manyvariables that are not within
your control. So when you youknow, we have outsourced our
means to resolve conflict,right. For better, for worse, we
(11:07):
have relied on attorneyspsychologists to tell people
that you know we'll fix youryour conflict. But often I'll
say to both husband and or wife,father or mother, I'll say,
Where were you when you gavebirth to your child? Oh, I was
(11:27):
in the operating room, or I wasin the room. The father will say
the same thing, I was there whenmy son came out. Where are you
when decisions are being madeabout parenting? Oh, I'm in the
back, or I'm in the hallway, andmy lawyer tells me this is the
way it's going to be so andlook, I operate in that system.
(11:51):
That's the way the system is.
But when you think about it,it's a very disempowering model,
right? It's, it's what it saysis that you can't settle this on
your own. You need to becoddled. We need to solve it for
you. But at the end of the day,what are we doing? At one time a
man and a woman got togetherwhere there was some intimacy,
(12:16):
some love, something thatcreated this child, but now
we're outsourcing it and givingthe power over to strangers like
me, dictating what their futureand destiny is, and that is
really set up for disaster,disappointment and frustration,
because judges have so manycases on their calendar, and to
(12:40):
expect that they think abouttheir cases as much as you're
thinking about your own case andhow much this affects your life
every day. Yeah, it's not fairfor you know, it's just not
realistic, nor is necessary fairto think that judges go home
every day with the burdens thatyou carry, on a personal level,
(13:00):
they be burnt out, right? Youknow, there's a thing about
boundaries, right, that that wehave to set the work that I do
is very emotionally toxic forme. I get, you know, people who
are angry or hate filled, whowant to blame me, who want to
blame the justice system, andoften that removes any
(13:22):
accountability or anyresponsibility for their own
behavior. And I take it on. IfI'm not, if I don't get my own
help, I take it on and I, youknow, I want to have a drink. I
want to, you know, just yell andvent. I can't sleep at night
thinking about, is this oneokay? Is that one okay? So we
(13:44):
all need to set our ownboundaries.
Caryn Portnoy (13:48):
I think a lot of like coming from the couples,
and I feel like if they wereable to work all this stuff out
themselves, they would. But Ithink a lot of what breaks down
in a marriage is communicationand being on the same side and
putting the kids needs ahead oftheir arguments and absolutely
Dr. Robert Goldman (14:08):
all those Absolutely, if they could do it,
they would. They would. And theproblem is all those things that
you talk about, what prevents itfrom happening in many times,
not all cases, is the emotionalbrain is running away. You know,
when moral violations occur.
Social psychologist by the nameof Jonathan H, a, i, d, T, talks
(14:29):
about it in terms of moralfoundations theory, when
morality is violated, ittriggers an emotional response
that therefore triggers,triggers the what we call the
amygdala, the limbic system, theseptum, all these things are
responsible for making knee jerkreactions. So when, and this is
(14:53):
evolutionary right, because wedidn't have time to think. Or
engage the prefrontal cortex,which is responsible for
thinking. If I do this, whatwill be the natural
consequences? So when we'reengaged in a conflict where
morality has been violated, itsets off the emotional brain,
(15:15):
which can result in irrationalthoughts followed by irrational
behavior,
Caryn Portnoy (15:24):
right? Talking about an a moral split, you
know, where that's not the case,nobody cheated, or anything like
that, where it's just the loveisn't there anymore, and there
was a breakdown in communicationand having needs met, and you
know, all the things that keep amarriage together when that
falls apart and it's not thereanymore, it's not like one can
(15:48):
blame the other for somethingimmoral. It's just it ran its
course and it's time to move on.
But
Dr. Robert Goldman (15:53):
I would say it is moral for some, because it
would be based on almost like acontract, right? A contract of
trust, right? So everybody'sdifferent, but if they perceive
the the breakdown of themarriage can still be seen as a
moral violation, because it'spredicated on a an agreement of
(16:15):
working together and raising afamily. The reason why these why
morality elicits such a visceralresponse is because it was
necessary for survival. Soliving together is so necessary
for survival. The Law of 151thing that is really
(16:38):
interesting, the research showsthat our brain size is relative
to how much we can live as acommunity, and our brain side,
at max, can have 150connections, and that's
necessary to be a huntergatherer, right? We're not the
strongest, we're not thefastest, but together, when we
live as a community, we canhunt, right? We can surround an
(17:00):
animal, right? When that isbroken, it does elicit an
emotional response, regardlessof the moral violation of, let's
say, cheating, right? And then
Caryn Portnoy (17:10):
I wonder, like, you know, there's so much I know
in today's world, in today'ssociety, there is mostly two
income homes where both parentsare working full time and
they're earning what they'reearning and and there's more of
an equal distribution ofresponsibility in that regard,
right? But when, let's say thehusband works full time and the
(17:32):
wife is a stay at home mom, justnaturally, the husband isn't as
involved, because the wife ishome and she's handling
everything about the kid andyeah, and school and activities
and all that stuff, plusmanaging a household and plus
everything else that they do fortheir life together, there's a
big imbalance in responsibilityand who makes decisions and
(17:54):
who's hands on and who's not. Sowhen there's that disruption and
equilibrium in a marriage, youknow? I feel like it tends to
lead to a bad place, you know,yeah,
Dr. Robert Goldman (18:06):
and I think, I mean, this is my own personal
beliefs. I'll share it. I don'tthink taking care of children,
raising them, being there forthem because of male or female,
isn't it's not respective andnot respected enough as such a
valuable piece. I agree, becauseas a as a psychologist, we know
(18:28):
from the research that, youknow, children are better off
when they have that parent thatcan do all those things. Yeah,
it's a resilience factor to havea parent that can help that
child along the way be there forthem.
Caryn Portnoy (18:42):
That note, I read a study that said that the way
to tell if a child will thriveis based on the mother's
happiness. Have you heard thator read that?
Dr. Robert Goldman (18:52):
I haven't necessarily heard that. I'm not
surprised by that, but I thinkthat if a mother or a father are
under stress, okay? And thereis, let's say they're a victim
of domestic violence, right?
That's whether the child viewsit or not. That's going to
disrupt that parent's ability,yes, to be an effective parent
(19:16):
and an effective human being. Sohappy parents, you know,
definitely help the childrenthrive. You know, what's funny
is, when I was a little boy inmy room, was children learn what
they live right, or live whatthey learn, learn what they live
right. And I had this, and Ibought, I recently bought, like
(19:38):
you can find it online, I boughtit. It's a whole but it's all
different. It's like 10 things,you know? It's so cute, and it's
so basic, and it's still sotrue, that children are like
sponges, right? And they pick upon the the happiness or sadness.
You. Of parents, and a lot oftimes when parents don't get
(20:01):
along and there's tension in thehouse all the time, they assume
the role of what we call thepleaser and appeaser, where they
have to hope that the parentsare not going to fight or argue
in front of them and have batsin their stomach every time
their parents are around eachother, right? And obviously
(20:22):
that's going to have negativeramifications for their own
future development and how theyview relation.
Caryn Portnoy (20:32):
I agree, unfortunately, I agree with
that. Spoke to a teacherrecently who said to me, though,
in her experience as a teacher,not as a psychologist or
anything, but she was sayingthat what children learn first,
they learn best. And it sat withme because, you know, I would
like to think that in a happierchildhood and a happier time in
(20:54):
the home and all of that, thatthey remember that, but I don't
know that they do
Dr. Robert Goldman (20:59):
well. I think, you know, that's a good
that's a very good statement. Weknow there are critical periods
within the brain where they'remore receptive to learn things,
for example, language, right? Soyou teach a child two languages
at an early age, they're goingto be able to remember that and
(21:20):
develop that, as opposed to ifthey were to learn that much
later in life, you know, andalso when we are exposed to a
traumatic event, and be itdomestic violence, be it verbal
abuse, be whatever that sticksin our brain more than The good
things, right? Does it depend onage? No, it really well. It
(21:45):
depends on age. The younger youare, the less, as I said before,
the less developed your yourprefrontal cortex is. It doesn't
fully develop until you're 24but the way the brain is wired
is that you have the emotionalbrain, which I talked about, but
right next to the emotionalbrain, behind it, is what's
called the hippocampus, and thehippocampus is responsible for
(22:09):
learning. So when you take it,it's like you take the emotional
brain and let's say this is it,and then you wrap it around or
close to the hippocampus. Thehippocampus re remembers. It
remembers the emotional event,and that, again, is adaptive,
because we don't, you know,we're wired to discount the
(22:32):
positive and focus on thenegative, which is not good for
our mental health, right? Butwe're the reason why we're wired
to focus on the negative isbecause if we focus on the
negative, we can avoid thosenegative things that may be a
threat to
Caryn Portnoy (22:47):
us. Interesting.
So I've been hearing a lot aboutwhat trauma in a divorce can do
to your brain in terms of andI'm just going to say this is
something I've heard just, youknow, read amongst the people on
these divorce groups, right?
They talk about narcissisticabuse and what that does to
(23:09):
their brain. And I keep hearingthat it affects your brain
physically. And, you know, theoverload of cortisol and
affecting the hippocampus andall of these things, and you
know is that something that youcan heal from.
Dr. Robert Goldman (23:25):
So I think the that the court system and
how we deal with the adversarialapproach is a very stressful,
traumatic experience for many ofus. I mean, I hear so many
people who I work with say theyhate going to court. It's so
(23:46):
it's like, re traumatizing allthe time comes in, yeah, it
comes in waves. Like, first theyget to court, they they're sick
to their stomach, they show up,and they're usually
disappointed. Nothing happens.
And then then the wave, youknow, quiets downs until the
next court date that comes upwith more expectations, and then
followed by disappointment,right? So one of the things that
(24:08):
you know the trauma and how thebrain is affected, yeah, I, I
think that past trauma ofrelationships and people have
problems calling it trauma incertain sex, because they say,
Well, what are you talkingabout? Trauma is more like
wartime, right? Like that'strauma, but I call it any life,
(24:30):
you know, stressful life eventthat is unable to be processed
within your body and to be, youknow, and that still holds you
back. It to me, trauma is prettyit's us what is kind of
subjective in a way, the DSM gotrid of the reasonable person
standard and cause it now asubjective standard, yeah, so
(24:53):
that's good and bad, because itopens up the floodgates for what
one person calls. Traumatic.
Another person callsexhilarating. You know, it's
like, oh, I have to speak infront of people. That's very
traumatic for me, right? Otherswould say, I love to speak in
front of me. So what istraumatic now is somewhat
(25:14):
relative, yeah. But getting backto your your question is, you
mentioned the label again,narcissist, and I'm not saying
that narcissism does not exist.
I'm just again saying Howhelpful is it to label somebody
that in terms of your ability tonavigate what you're doing? It
(25:35):
might be helpful if it leads toacceptance. In other words,
let's say I have a child who hasa parent who may have mental
illness, right? And they're notgoing to change. It's like a
physical illness. It's likehaving cancer, okay? And you say
(25:55):
to to the child. Listen, thismay be your expectations that
your dad is going to be able tohave a catch with you, but
because he has cancer, he's tooweak to have a catch. So lower
your expectations withoutresentment. Can you do that? And
(26:17):
that's what relationships,marriage and everything. This
may sound very cynical, but Ibelieve relationships are like a
limbo, right? How low can yougo, lowering your expectations
without resentment? You know, isit
Caryn Portnoy (26:34):
the same, though, when somebody has a physical
disability versus a personalitydisorder?
Dr. Robert Goldman (26:39):
Okay? Well, the great question, is it the
same when somebody has aphysical disability, as opposed
to personality disorder? Well,personality disorder, by
definition, under the DSM, issomething that is not likely, is
doesn't change. It's constant.
It's who they are as a person,correct, right? So how you
approach it, if you say this iswho they are, and you believe
(27:02):
they have a personalitydisorder, then you have to
what's your alternative? I mean,you have to behave accordingly.
You have to exactly work withwhat you have and Right, right?
But when you know where thingsgo awry is where you use a label
to avoid any accountability orresponsibility for your
(27:26):
behavior, and you say, oh, thatperson is just a narcissist. I
didn't do anything wrong. I'mnot saying that's in every case.
It's like any type of label yougive people and therefore you
take away any responsibility youhave for your own behavior by
labeling them as such.
Caryn Portnoy (27:47):
I'm gonna over generalize for a second, just
based on what I read in thesecomments and stuff. But it seems
to me that a lot of men who calltheir ex wives narcissists are
the ones that primarily areescaping accountability. I find
that, for the most part, thewomen who are calling their ex
(28:08):
husbands narcissists are justtrying to survive and trying to
figure out, how do I navigatethis? How do I behave? How do I
defend my right to live? Youknow, it's a very different
dynamic,
Dr. Robert Goldman (28:21):
right? And you bring up a really good
point. You said, this is thesample that you're getting. So
that would be a reallyinteresting topic to read, to
study. Yeah, you know you haveto get a fair sample size,
though, because you knoweverybody, like from father's
rights advocates from all thesedifferent groups do have their
(28:45):
own agenda, because they have,in their opinion, been wronged
by the and they pick upsomewhere and then. So, you know
again, and I'm not dismissingthem, because they may be
helpful for people, but when weput ourselves in silos, which is
what the world is now, right?
We're gonna have our our bias,and then we're gonna find
(29:06):
anybody who supports our belief,and if that person does not feel
supported, they'll just findanother Facebook group, or
they're gonna find anotherorganization or TV channel or
show that speaks to them andthat will perpetuate in
psychology, we call it a bias, acognitive bias, right? And you
(29:30):
know, when we have these biases,we want to look for evidence
that supports these biases andthrow away the ones that that
don't I mean, again, gettingback to my previous point, we
don't like to be in the grace.
We don't like to thinkcritically. And it's my job as a
(29:53):
forensic psychologist to thinkcritically, to take hypotheses,
to listen to what. Everybody hasto say and test it against the
other evidence that I have. Andalways question, am I being
biased in any way myself? I
Caryn Portnoy (30:11):
mean, I would think the answer is yes, in most
cases, like everybody has abias, right? I
Dr. Robert Goldman (30:16):
think everybody has their own bias.
Everything. Everybody comes tothe table with life experiences,
and they're only looking atthings. I think the only way to
defend against biases is toacknowledge our own and try to
make sure we're doing our best.
One of the great things is Ihave people I work with, and I
want to always test, you know,and ask them what they think
(30:40):
understood,
Caryn Portnoy (30:43):
what circumstances would would you be
able to prove that an ex spouseis harassing you in court? Like,
how do you how do you provethat?
Dr. Robert Goldman (30:52):
Well, so, how can you prove that an ex
spouse is harassing you? I mean,usually that's proven in court
through more collateralinformation, more evidence that
is not subject to, you know,what he or she said in terms of
(31:13):
what the person is reporting,but clear cut, You know, videos
or you know, clear cut evidencethat's that speaks for itself.
Whenever I do an evaluation, Ilook for what's called
convergent validity, and that'sa term used to help us say, like
(31:36):
you know, are do we get hospitalrecords? Do are we getting
collateral sources who may notbe biased, right? Or are we
getting all the information fromeverybody out there that then
comes together to load on acertain variable, right? It
can't be a he said, she said,game, because, again,
(31:59):
understandably, those partiesare biased. But if we can
really, I try my best to get asmany outside sources that are
corroborative of what one personis saying, and that does not
have a bias one way or theother, so things like pediatric
records, right speaking todoctors, you know, again, even
(32:23):
speaking to therapists, they maythey have their own relationship
with that patient. Sounderstandably, they have their
own bias, right?
Caryn Portnoy (32:30):
So it has to be somebody who doesn't know or
isn't invested in both parties,right?
Dr. Robert Goldman (32:36):
I try to say that the less emotional and the
less anybody has to gain inspeaking to me, the more the
more valid or more reliable. Butagain, you want to make sure it
adds up, right? Okay,
Caryn Portnoy (32:51):
I was thinking about this before, like back in
the 70s and 80s, when coupleswere going through divorce. I
think typically, it's safe tosay that the mother usually had
the children, and the mother andthe children stayed in the home
and the father moved out.
Totally generalizing, but thatwas kind of the temperature it
was the 70s and 80s,
Dr. Robert Goldman (33:13):
right? That was under what's called the
tender years presumption, andthat the mother was, you know,
suited and fit to to havecustody. It was almost like you
started off with thatpresumption, right?
Caryn Portnoy (33:27):
So cut to now, where a father can remain in the
home with the children and themother moves out. What happened
between then and now? Whatcaused
Dr. Robert Goldman (33:39):
that? I mean, I think some of the things
that have happened is, there hasbeen some research saying that
the importance that fathers havein involvement in the children's
life. There's some research tosuggest that I think women and
men both have become seen moreas equals in terms of, you know,
(34:00):
both having the ability and orthe obligation to work, and I
think that there's been a changealong the way. I think it was
2007 don't quote me on this inNew York, specifically, the law
was changed where lawyersattorneys for the children. So I
(34:21):
started off first when I was alaw guardian. And law guardians
were charged with recommendingwhat they feel is in their best
interests. And ironically, Iwent the reason why I went back
to school to get my doctorate inpsychology, one of the reasons
was I would say, what does alawyer know about the best
interests, right? What does achild do too, right, right? So
(34:45):
then I come out of school lateron, and I find out there's been
a shift. No longer are lawyersadvocating for best interests.
They're advocating for expressedinterests. Now that. But again,
life is not black and white, andnow we've gone to the point
where, you know a lawyer is evenif a lawyer disagrees with the
(35:12):
best interests, with that thisdecision that the child is
expressing, they still have theobligation do zealously lawyers?
They've taken out the zealouspart for lawyers, but the the
attorney for the the child nowhas an obligation to zealously
(35:32):
represent what their child orclient wants, I should say. And
here becomes, you know thatdoesn't make the best
psychological sense, because,you know, children don't lack
the capacity to enter intocontracts. They lack the
capacity to go off to war. Theylack the capacity to vote, write
(35:54):
a Will they like, the capacityto vote, to smoke cigarettes,
all of this, you know, and nowyou're asking them to chime in
and give weight to a decisionthat will have long lasting
effects on their sense of, youknow, future, that's heavy,
(36:14):
that's heavy. And what I noticehappens with this shift is that
children now become in themiddle of the conflict, and they
become empowered. And you haveconstantly bargaining, right? So
you'll have one parent say, nowyou're right in the middle of
the conflict, and one parentwill now try to push the other
(36:36):
child in the child into choosemy side, you know, because now
you can be on my side, becausenow you have a lawyer who will
fight for me, right by fightingfor you, right? So that's not
fair to the child,
Caryn Portnoy (36:53):
and in saying that the parent wants the child
to choose them, this is wherethe manipulation plays into
Dr. Robert Goldman (37:00):
well, obviously that thing can a child
is then can be manipulated,
Caryn Portnoy (37:05):
sure they get spoiled, and I'll buy you
whatever you want. And right? Soit
Dr. Robert Goldman (37:10):
becomes, it becomes problematic when you
give a child so much power tomake a decision that,
unfortunately, the parentscan't, right. So
Caryn Portnoy (37:21):
my, my next question, which plays into this
is, I believe in New York,children are allowed to make
this decision as of 12 years oldand higher. Is that correct? You
Dr. Robert Goldman (37:31):
know, I That's news to me. I mean, I
don't. I googled it. I don't, Idon't see a law. I don't there.
I'm not aware of a law that saysa child at 12, then can make a
decision. I don't know whereit's in the Family Court Act. I
haven't seen it anywhere. I'mwriting an article called to
(37:52):
substitute or not substitute.
That is the question, because anAFC, the attorney for the child,
can make a substitute andsubstitute judgment when the
child lacks capacity, or they'replacing their decision is
placing them in imminent harm.
So there, there are times whenattorneys for children don't
(38:12):
like to do that, because thehigher courts can often come
down very hard on them. They canget sanctioned if they don't
represent what their clientwants, right? It's very murky,
yeah, different systems ofjudgment. So attorneys for
children are put in a veryprecarious position,
Caryn Portnoy (38:31):
you know? Okay, so if it's not law that children
can decide for themselves from12 on, let's just say, for
argument's sake, that that'strue, if you're saying that a
child's brain isn't fully formeduntil they're 24 Correct, right?
How do they know what's in theirbest interest? Right?
Dr. Robert Goldman (38:50):
Right? So, so the theory is that the judge
will determine the the bestinterests, right? That the judge
is the arbiter of what the bestinterest is, after hearing from
the attorney for the child, youknow, and everybody else and the
respective attorneys. But look,that's our system. Now, I always
(39:11):
feel we pendulate from onesystem to another, and, you
know, we go from one extreme tothe other. The thing is, we
don't react. We overreact. Well,
Caryn Portnoy (39:23):
I think the time for reacting is during the
marriage, before there's adivorce, and when those
reactions aren't worked out,then it becomes overreacting,
because what choices? Bingo.
Dr. Robert Goldman (39:35):
That's right. And if children learn
what they live and if they see amarriage that is not functional
and conflict is resolved byfighting, arguing and hitting,
they will then live that lifetoo. So it starts with us,
because we as parents are rolemodels for how our children are
(39:58):
going to navigate conflict.
Conflict in their future on theplayground and everything else.
So
Caryn Portnoy (40:04):
personally, my divorce is now officially done,
and I've been out of the houseand I'm healing and all of this
stuff, I would say that who I amnow, as opposed to during the
divorce, is night and day. Imean, totally night and day. How
do you help support your yourpatients into healing instead of
(40:25):
just living the rest of theirlife, hating their ex and doing
nothing to help themselves bebetter? I think
Dr. Robert Goldman (40:32):
a lot of it, part of it, is what we call
psycho education. We have to,like, provide our clients with
what will happen if theycontinue down this road, as far
as for their own mental health,their physical health, and their
children, most of all, so youhave to motivate. You know, a
client that they can see howthey're operating is not good
(40:54):
for themselves. You know, themotivation is key, and the most
important thing in working withclients is developing a good
therapeutic alliance and beingempathic to what they're going
through and acknowledging it,but at the same time offering
them real, substantive tools.
You know, you got through this,right and along the way, I mean,
(41:16):
and so you are there for theembodiment of resiliency? Yes,
right. And you had some riskfactors and resilient factors,
and I think we need to build upthe resilience factors that made
you get through this and try toaddress the risk factors that
the, for example, the traumaexperienced and going through
(41:40):
the court system, the stressfulevents, the life events that
even came before this. And howdo you minimize that and
maximize the resilient factorsthat are in all of us? Right? We
are innately resilient.
Otherwise we wouldn't be
Caryn Portnoy (41:57):
here. And I'm glad you said that, because in
all of these groups that I'm in,and you know, I've gotten such
positive feedback about how myperspective is so unique, how I
pose the most thought provokingquestions to the group, and how
I've driven people to tearsbecause what I say is exactly
(42:18):
what they needed to hear in thatmoment. And because of the fact
that I'm where I am right now,I'm using this platform in my
podcast to help and inspireother people to heal as well. So
I was called to tell my story,and after that, I'm now starting
the the journey of my healingand what I like. I mean, look,
(42:40):
I'm I'm not a professional. Idon't have any, you know,
psychology degrees or doctordoctorates or anything like
that. I'm a regular mom whosurvived a very, very toxic
divorce which was set to destroyme, and now I'm thriving. So I
have my experience to draw on,to provide credibility to my
(43:00):
audience, so that they know thatI've lived what they've lived,
and how I got out of it, and howI helped to heal myself. And I
just wonder if there's a bigenough group of people that are
driven and motivated to heal, ordo they kind of like they know
that the tools are there. Theyknow that they can help
(43:22):
themselves, but they choose notto, or they choose to be a
victim, or they choose to tokind of like, this is what
happened to me, and that's wherethey live for the rest of their
life.
Dr. Robert Goldman (43:33):
And I, I've seen that and and it's, it's
heartbreaking, yeah, becausethey're living a very toxic
life, and it's people like youthat can share your personal
narrative. You know, one of myfavorite books that I love for
all my patients to read is abook called Man Search for
Meaning by Victor Frankel, andhe's the father of positive
(43:56):
psychology, and he wrote how hewas able to find meaning behind
his suffering as he went throughthe Holocaust. Oh, wow. So one
of the thing Frankel says is,between everything, there is a
stimulus and a response, andbefore you respond, there's a
(44:17):
space. That space representsyour freedom, yeah, for how
you're going to respond. And youknow, that's a thing that I
think you know, really taking apause and engaging the
prefrontal cortex before we actout of emotion is a very
(44:38):
valuable life lesson and findingmeaning behind your suffering.
You know, to say, everythinghappens for a reason. I don't
believe it's necessarily true,but I do believe it's our job in
life to find the reason behindit. You know, that's the only
way you get through
Caryn Portnoy (44:55):
I'm at a point now where I can look to the
three and. Half years of hellthat I went through, and really
and truly was at the bottom ofthe barrel, like I was, I was
determined not to be broken, andI wasn't. And I rose from that.
But at the same time, it's likeI chose to heal. I CH, like i
(45:17):
Yes, well,
Dr. Robert Goldman (45:18):
that's the whole thing we go back to. And
you're empowered. The justicesystem is didn't heal you? No,
you healed from it. Yes, so thatthat's the whole thing, like
Caryn Portnoy (45:29):
now I can thank the whole experience, because I
would not be where I am now andwho I am now had I not gone
through that. And
Dr. Robert Goldman (45:36):
that's everybody's life story, right?
You come across a stressorevent, you have a choice. Are
you going to say, I'm going tofind meaning behind this, or am
I going to fall victim to it?
Yeah.
Caryn Portnoy (45:49):
I mean, while you're going through it,
there's, there's no way not toyou're a
Dr. Robert Goldman (45:53):
victim, so you're so hard. Yeah, you know?
So
Caryn Portnoy (45:57):
I applaud anybody who is brave enough to choose to
heal and choose to getthemselves out of it and move
forward,
Dr. Robert Goldman (46:05):
yeah?
Because it's not easy. I marvelat those people. Yeah, so I
marvel at you. Thank
Caryn Portnoy (46:10):
you. Thank you very much. I'm very humbled
quiet. I'm very grateful forwhere I am right now. I all I
want to do is help other people.
And you know, I know how hard itis to get out of it, and the
fact that I was able to heal atthe same time that I was being
abused is like, like, thatdoesn't happen. I I am very
aware I'm a unicorn in thisspace, but, but I feel like I
(46:32):
have something to offer peopleto help them, you know, move
forward. So on that note, Ithink we're coming up to our
time, unless there's anythingelse that you want to share,
just personally or otherwise. Ifany
Dr. Robert Goldman (46:47):
you know, again, this is a real difficult,
stressful time, and if anybodyyou know, I have a great team
behind me that really helpspeople navigate through the
stressful life event that is,you know, divorce and or
separation and managing that ofthe collateral damage that's
left behind, if any way I canhelp the same way you like to
(47:11):
help it can reach me at 631 499,7500 just book an appointment
with me, my staff. And you know,hopefully we can offer you
support. I
Caryn Portnoy (47:24):
appreciate that, and I just want to thank you
again for being here and forgiving us your time and your
expertise, and I will speak toyou later.
Dr. Robert Goldman (47:34):
You got it.
Thank you. Thanks again. Bye.
Bye.
Caryn Portnoy (47:42):
Please. Join me every Thursday for a new
episode. If you'd like to reachout to me and ask questions or
share stories of your own, yourown experiences through any of
these things, I would love tohear from you. Please also
subscribe. You.
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