July 26, 2023 • 34 mins
Morgan Beller calls up Raed Khawaja - CEO & Co-Founder at Open - to catch up and talk about the current movement around one's 'inner-space'. Open is a social space for meditation, movement, and practice — on and offline, who’s raised close to $15M to help friends be present together. They blend old and new to bring you to the here and now on their app, in person at their Venice Beach studio, and even in the sky on JetBlue airlines. Their hybrid method strengthens the mind-body connection. NFX operates as a pre-seed and seed stage VC that is transforming how true innovators are funded - subscribe, share, and stay tuned for more episodes of 'Phone a Friend' with General Partner Morgan Beller.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hey.
It's Morgan Beller, general partner, NFX.
Welcome to phone a friend, a new experimentwhere we're going to let you listen in on
conversations as they happen naturally.
To kick things off, I called Ride Kwaja, aclose friend and co founder and CEO of Open a
mindfulness and meditation platform who'sraised close to $15,000,000 to help friends be
(00:21):
present together, and I'm excited to share thisconversation with you.
Enjoy.
Well, well, well.
Well, well, well,
(00:42):
Pete we are.
We're doing it.
Here we are.
Is this Morgan Beller?
If you can believe it or not, Morgan Beller,some background noise from the chaos of the
office, and probably a barking jiffithy becausethere's chicken in sight.
There's a chicken in sight.
Is that what
I heard?
There's chicken.
I have there's chicken on the plate inside ofthe dog.
I see.
(01:02):
I was going for more of a barnyard scene.
You had chickens running about.
In the middle of Pays Valley.
Are you back from your travels?
And my back from my travels.
Yeah.
So last week, we had our founder retreat at aranch in Flint Reyes, which was pretty great
other than the fact that Josie was covered inticks Okay.
(01:23):
12 out of 10, don't recommend.
I think I got them all out.
And then she got her hair dyed in her shirt'sridiculous.
And then I had a wedding in Aspen, which wasbeautiful.
Got that yet.
Are they still somewhat recovering hopefully intime for my brother's wedding this weekend?
Amazing.
Where is that?
It's in Portola Valley.
We're just south of the city, and I'm the bestman, and I have the right of speech, and it's
(01:45):
currently a blank to pay for the 0.
There's a lot of responsibility because youhave to be funny.
You can't just like Yeah.
Yes, ma'am.
Lucky for you.
You are funny as a default mode.
So just make sure words come out of your mouth.
I just make sure Yeah.
You asked you asked where I am I am in afamiliar place with you and I chatting.
(02:05):
I am on the Pete moving south back towardsVenice, and it's a beautiful day.
It's clear.
It's sunny.
It's everything LA was told to be.
Well, this is goddamn perfect because well,we're experimenting with the telephone a friend
thing, but the ideas that we're just in ournatural places, in our natural states, in our
natural thing.
We're just calling each other.
(02:26):
And some of my most insightful moments havecome from calls that you've made to me driving
up and down the Pete over the past 3 years ofCOVID.
So and no reason to believe this will be anydifferent.
I agree.
And I I reflect that right back at you.
Or once I'm not walking, because I was scaredof sirens, and too much noise in the
(02:47):
background, but we'll see.
How's he's Valley these days?
Well, I'm not sure if you heard that it's nowat Cerabro Valley.
We one of the first things I did when joiningNSX, like, almost 3 years ago, it was like
we're getting the FOCA and some of the healthcare.
But the rest of San Francisco in many ways isbetter than it was pre COVID and that it's the
(03:07):
first time I think people are intentionallychoosing to live here versus just being here by
proxy for a job.
And we've lost some great ones like yourself,but Oh, we won't stay.
And there's outdoor dining, 3 164 days a year.
So wanted us to be in a residentialneighborhood.
You landed on 8.
It's kind of in the center of the city.
And then I'd like to take credit for what ithas become, but honestly, just by luck, it's
(03:33):
now Serebral Valley, whatever that means, Ithink it means that there's, like, AI companies
popping up everywhere.
Is it called Cerebral Valley?
Is that a thing?
Oh, it's a big ride.
You're still out of it?
I'm so out of it.
So James Valley is the midbrain to SanFrancisco now.
Is that
Correct.
Correct.
Yeah.
It's called Cerebral Valley.
Like, you literally walk down the street andyou see people like hacking and garages, which
(03:56):
is how it used to be before I can evenremember, I mean, I wasn't here for any of
that.
And, like, all the telephone polls are coveredin flyers and posters for hackathons and happy
hours.
And these really weird cats in, like, theBeller Courtyard park thing by, ritual coffee.
And it feels pretty much Relativity.
(04:16):
Relatively center.
I hear you.
And then our office is, hopefully, the centerof that, but we're working on it.
And a lot of people to work from here.
So we've been hosting these, like, AI happyhours and last, like, 10 days ago we
experimented with open office hours whereanyone, we were like, hey, anyone on the
internet is working on an AI company come workfrom our office.
(04:37):
And that was kind of a dream.
What's getting a space bigger than what weneeded.
And then I walked into the office that night.
And on one hand, that was, like, dream cometrue because it was packed.
But on the other hand, I'm like, holy shit thatfeels like project x.
You know, the movie project x when the parentscome home, and it says it was trash.
There was somebody on my desk.
Kinda feel like an invasion of my personalspace, refrigerator is empty, your beer bottles
(05:00):
everywhere.
So we're figuring out what the happy medium is,but that's positive.
Yeah.
Acquisition check retention and quality.
That's what we're working on next.
Okay.
You're in the center of it.
You've created the center of it.
Congratulations.
Serebral Valley smack dab in the center ofCerebral Valley.
You know, it's interesting.
The center of the brain, right there, somewherein the middle, I recently learned that there's
(05:24):
these, like, 2 clusters of nerve cells thatexist that basically decide whether you're
going to act with courage or whether you'regonna act with fear.
They happen to be just mapped out next to eachother.
So I thought I'd just
tell you that.
I didn't
learn that as scientifically, but I had ameditation experience recently.
And maybe this Did you
(05:44):
just put air quotes while you said that?
Yeah.
I had a journey.
I Pete air quotes around journey, butexperienced recently where the guide, who was
wonderful.
It was gonna be a full day.
Session, and they gave some meditationprinciples in the opening remarks.
And one of the principle that they went overwas the concept of fear.
(06:08):
And how fear is something I'm gonna use wayless eloquent words to describe it, but that
fear is usually is something that most peoplesee and never do anything with, but that on the
other side of fear is something exciting.
Like, if you could, like, think what it wouldfeel like to get on the other side of whatever
that thing is that you fear.
And that fear and excitement, I think it wasexcitement, like, actually are very and learn
(06:29):
energy, they're putting energies in air quotes.
But that Well, but emotions may be boiled downto the same emotions.
Yeah.
And the body has a similar physiological ofother responses up to you, but if you look at
what's happening physiologically that yeah.
And now you're saying that that's there'sscience there.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, well, that's funny.
I used to say actual science, and then we talkabout, you know, ancient wisdom and actual
(06:52):
science and what's observable over what we'reinferring.
It's all fun stuff, but, yeah, fear.
I used to think it was a useless emotion, ayoung brash, rise, said fear.
That's useless.
It's actually pretty useful, I guess, though.
You know, that's
How so?
Get get you out of gets you out of someprecarious situations.
Right?
(07:12):
Sometimes you do need to just run.
Like, but not always.
It can be confusing.
It can be confusing for the nervous system.
It can be confusing for those nerve cells toreally decide whether to react or respond in a
way that's bold or a way that's calm.
All stuff that you can train and be Bellerequipped for, though.
You said you were gonna ask me a betterquestion.
(07:33):
Well, that kind of gets kind of like a segway.
So as you know, I've been in crypto land forthe better part of the past 6 years and it's
been fun in there, you know, some good timesand bad times, but, been Thank you, Mel.
Is there anything else that interests me?
And it hasn't even been as much of a passivequestion as it's been, like, an active
realization that there is this, like, wholeother area Flint me for which I have a lot to
(07:58):
thank you for because when we talked about thisa few weeks ago, but I did not meditate.
I didn't know what the sound bath was.
I didn't know what breath work was other thanlike breathing.
And with no disrespect, because I've learnedLike, I thought it was all focused focus.
And then you introduced me to this world in away that was very understandable for me, at
(08:23):
least had pulled me in in a way that made metrust and believe that quote, this was real.
And it was my life has changed for the Beller,and I feel like I'm 0.001 percent of the way of
understanding what that is.
And then that's kind of like been coincidingwith this question, which or Riddle, which
might not have an answer, but realizing that 3of the biggest businesses of all time for
(08:45):
mankind's history have been in Women's history,person kinds.
I don't know what you're supposed have beencigarette alcohol and religion and that Gen Z
is kind of out for all three a lot of people Iknow are also out for all read by the
traditional definitions of it, but despite thatfact being the case, the part of the human
brain, bring this back to the brain that madethose industries so big, you're still there?
(09:08):
So what's going to replace that?
And then, like, feeling and seeing all thechange that has been introduced to my life
through, like, your practice as a method.
I'm like, well, wouldn't that be great?
If all these things become more mainstream,make sure I spend air quotes too.
And then I know what you're talking about this.
I already know what my question is, but like,
Morgan a prompt.
Yeah.
About that.
Yeah.
(09:28):
More of a prompt.
Yeah.
We've talked about this here and there.
I feel like, you know, maybe even lessstructured way, but Yeah.
I think the you mentioned religions.
I call them the o g well-being brands.
Right?
Nobody did community and practice better thanthem.
You have literal physical spaces where peoplegather and commune and practice all sorts, but
(09:49):
these modalities are not Morgan to a lot ofthose institutions Pete.
Right?
You mentioned it as movement, breathing,acoustic environment.
Now these are very much long held traditions.
And it's interesting that you mentioned thingslike cigarettes and alcohol as well.
Right?
It's like folks are reaching for alcohol.
(10:11):
What's really going on there as press thatwhat's happening to your nervous system.
If that's the desired result, does it have tocome with all the chemical waste and byproduct?
That comes with consuming alcohol, or can you,you know, down regulate your nervous system,
maybe, and really definitive and purposeful wayto smoking cigarettes that's one form of breath
(10:31):
work.
It is conscious control breathing in a way, butthere's a stimulant there.
There's a focus thing half there.
There's an appetite thing happening there.
So, yeah, I think if you break down all thesethings to their atomic levels, then you can
explore much more potent, much healthier waysof going about basically practicing towards
(10:51):
your well-being or being able to engage withyour life or reality, however, how do you wanna
get with it in a way that feels reallysustaining, really meaningful, really
purposeful.
Right?
So, yeah, now I'm there with you.
How do we do it?
Oh, thank you.
I mean, Christy, and you have, like, a prettybig common denominator.
A lot of people were in.
So are, like, on train.
(11:12):
And I guess I think about, like, theseexperiences that I've had, part of the magic
has been that they've been in person, you know,breadth the open studio, for example.
Yep.
And in small ish group and also feels likestill branded in some, like, negative ways.
Like, you know, quote, we, like, we, you know,name this person by name, but there's somebody,
(11:33):
like, work with in respect a lot who has a lotof, Pete and a lot of
A lot of Beller.
A lot
of Beller.
Yeah.
A lot
of Beller and a lot of the science stuff tobring this back to the science topic.
Yeah.
So I I have to hear a quote here.
Yeah.
I mean, scientist.
Right?
I'm all in our time, but yeah.
Observing truth.
Right?
And there's assuming to do that.
(11:55):
Yeah.
But keep going.
Beller was explaining this with soundexperience that I add, and he clearly was just
instantly dismissive of the whole thing and waslike, you know, for the hocus pocus comment, it
was like, absolutely not.
Like, they're that's not science.
Like, don't believe any of that shit.
And I'm gonna get to my point, but I was like,listening to some podcast recently about, like,
what's perceived to be legitimate is correlatedwith what is published in journals, like,
(12:20):
nature, science, etcetera.
And what's published is objective as far as theresults, but somewhat subjective based on the
topic that the editors want to see And there'sa hypothesis that I was like the current
generation of editors will be hiring the nextgeneration or more millennials will usher in a
desire to Pete, you know, double blind scienceback studies for prolet traffic breathing and
(12:45):
sound work and other things like that.
So where I'm going with this is like a fewareas.
1, how does this all become this in air quotesbecome mainstream, which has answered your
questions, including, like, religion was siloedinto different religions.
Right?
Is that that Muslim Christianity, Judaism,Judaism, how big can the
And many more.
(13:05):
10, many more.
Shout out and solve great religions.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Thank you.
Right.
So there's many more long tail.
There's a long tail to get related up there.
But
Many, many great institutions.
Yeah.
Do we think that there can be a critical massaround some of these experience or products?
And then, like, the other part of it is like,how do we destigmatize the negative
(13:29):
connotations associated with Wulu and, like,with the branding of some of these practices?
Yeah.
Maybe we can talk about it together.
I can answer them, but I think we should jam onthese together.
The first thing that came to mind as you talkedabout it Beller, there's two things that came
to mind.
Immediately, and then maybe you can riff withme on some more.
But, you know, part of where that voodoo hocuspocus Riff Raf James from, and a lot of those
(13:54):
objections are honestly from really the wellrooted places in that people have come into
contact with a lot of these modalities can bevery efficacious with context that is not
legitimate, or people have sprinkled in theirown interpretation of a modality or a practice.
(14:15):
And they've kind of bent it to their ownbeliefs them.
And so they kinda almost muddy the waters forthe underlying thing that's really valuable and
efficacious if that makes sense.
Right?
And so I think just starting from a place wheresome of that rejection comes from, I just had
to name that there's a lot of trash.
Out there, frankly.
Right?
And if
you just say press 4,
(14:37):
I think, yeah, you'd I mean, with qual so thetwo things that came to mind immediately were
quality, and the other one was storytelling.
Right?
And so there's many means where you can deliverthese practices, right, opens exploring the
idea of delivering these practices throughexperiences both on and offline as an example.
(14:57):
Right?
That's pretty general, but just to name that,you know, you could be consuming this through
more traditional Beller care, you could beconsuming this, not through commercial means,
but through community and friends, whatever itmay be.
Right?
But whatever the delivery mechanism having highquality experiences that are vetted, both
science backed, as well as a really studiedinterdisciplinary understanding of these
(15:22):
practices and their roots from variousdifferent places and then distilling and
curating those to a point where the end userhas something of very high quality can really
start to address those who are skeptical Right?
Because, ultimately, once they come in contactwith with the experience, you know, you can
justify things later through whatever means ofcredibility is most valuable for people.
(15:46):
But when people actually feel different andthey come on come into contact with quality
experiences, it's hard to argue with.
Right?
And you saw that probably in a lot of theexperiences that you've come to open.
Right?
The other one is storytelling.
Well, that's why I've been really fascinatedabout the role brands can play.
And notice I say brands, open is not meant tobe the panacea here, but hopefully there's many
(16:08):
brands that emerge that are attempting toanswer the question that or the prompt, I
guess, that you just put Morgan.
And, hopefully, they're all going through areally rigorous, you know, pro call it a
product development or design process to comeup with experiences that are really worthwhile
for people.
And if they do so, how they position thosepractices is really where the storytelling
(16:32):
comes in.
Right?
How do you get people actually to do the thing?
We have no insecurity about these modalitiesand whether or not they're worthwhile.
But how do you actually convince somebody tocome to the studio to download the app, to
learn a technique, and do so on their own?
In a repeated way.
That's the art of, you know, call it marketing,call it deduction, call it storytelling, call
(16:56):
it positioning, whatever you wanna call it.
It's probably all of those things.
Right?
How do you really get people inspired toactually do the thing?
And then how do you make it easy for them to beable to access that?
I think these are the things that we would haveto explore to and I'll use the word used to
make these practices mainstream.
And what do
you think is, like, the biggest up to that overthere?
Because I was, like, So you kindly let us cohost something in your perfect space a few
(17:22):
weeks ago, and I invited a lot of people tothis, like, breath and sound class who were
previously skeptical and
How'd it go?
Reactions?
I think we have, like, a year and I, because wehave, like, what, 5 plus people like a former
colleague who has Beller done anything close tothis was like holy shit.
This was ten times even crazier in a positiveway than what you had described.
(17:42):
And so one of our founders, but this I hadtwenty times, I think that what you said, the
experience that I have, you know, quote, just,like, Morgan more air quotes, less air
meditating.
And like I walked away with this, like thinkingabout, like, you know, breathing is believing,
sort of like seeing is believing.
And I don't know what your conversion rate isor what the conversion rate is for like, breath
work generally, but you can't deny that yourbody is feeling these things that your brain is
(18:06):
talking to you in different ways.
And I guess, like, the science is you've beensaying, but getting people in the door required
some, like, peer pressure in than others.
But then once people are there, they're like,holy, like, you can't, it's like, smack you in
the face.
Like, how do we get people there?
I know it's like one of the big questions.
You're asking, and then related to that islike, how do you scale the magic?
(18:29):
I think your app is doing as a good of a job asanyone is not better than anyone as making you
feel and in the room with other Pete, even ifyou're sitting by yourself on your couch at
home.
Yeah.
But there's some
extra special about the in person
Yeah.
I mean, that's one thing to name.
I mean, just Pete me be starting in reverseorder.
Often, I see designers trying to recreatesomething one for one that's happening in a
(18:52):
different environment that, you know, anenvironment that has different constraints,
right?
I think you got to look at the constraints asopportunities.
You have to look at the constraints that okay.
In this environment, what's possible that's notimpossible in the other environment?
And how do we design for the best possibleexperience and the most relevant experience for
this context.
Right?
So somebody who's on the go and needs 5minutes, it's a very different context than
(19:16):
somebody who's coming with a friend, getting intheir car for 10 minutes, parking down the
street, and spending an hour at the studio andgrabbing food afterwards.
Right?
It's a very different context than somebody whohas committed to go on a retreat for a day, 2
days, 3 days.
So, you know, one of the things that's just toembrace the reality of that and to design to
(19:36):
that end.
Right?
The other piece you were talking
about, like, how do you example, I won't letyou take
care of
the Pete, but I'm like, yeah.
Like, designing today.
I'm not gonna forget.
You have my complete undivided attention here.
I'm just driving aim aimlessly at this point.
Right?
An autopilot.
Yeah.
I actually have
But when you say that, and I your brain is justso much more creative than mine, where I'm
like, yeah.
I can textually totally with you.
(19:57):
But, like, what's it?
What does that mean?
Or I could, like, a tangible example of that.
What that means is, you know, let's play outthe digital versus in person class example.
Mhmm.
So Eventually, I can be in your ear withAirPods.
I can design an acoustic experience thatleverages binaural audio.
(20:18):
I can design an acoustic experience that'shighly detailed and meeting you, you know, on
your left ear and your right ear versusamplified sound in the studio with speakers
hanging from the ceiling.
Right?
As those are just right?
It's nuanced, but it's it's it really changeshow you would design the experience, maybe
(20:38):
something more practical.
In the studio environment, you have peoplebreathing with you.
Let's say you're doing, you know, 20 to 30 ofbreathing exercise, and that feels really
supportive.
You have 20 to 30 people breathing with you,and it creates a totally different type of
experience And sometimes people have troublegoing as deep as they might go if they were on
(20:59):
their own at home.
And we've seen that.
We've talked to plenty of users that say, hey.
I was really intimidated being in theenvironment.
I really didn't feel like I could you know,lean into the experience because Yeah.
A car almost just hit me, by the way.
Well, that's, I mean, stuff on it.
Notice notice the car almost hit me.
I didn't hit it.
Right.
Yeah.
(21:19):
So, yeah, you just play off those things.
Right?
And you say, okay.
Well, I have this person at the home and theirindividual experience versus in a space where
the guide needs to lead 30 different peoplethrough an experience.
It's just a really different thing.
Right.
There's a second point you were gonna makebefore Flint interrupted you.
Well, you talked about activation interview.
(21:40):
Right?
It said, hey, honey.
You actually get people to the experience.
Okay.
If the experiential knowledge is a big unlock,and we just need to have people arrive at that
experience in the first place.
And I think you have the same problem anyproduct or service has where you need to get
people in, and you need to get them to try it.
(22:02):
Right?
And you do whatever you can to make that easyand possible for people.
You mentioned that, you know, you had to referyour Flint really actively to be able to come,
how are we enabling the refer?
What are we arming arming the refer with interms of language in terms of incentive, in
(22:23):
terms of literal hyperlink to make it easy forpeople to share the experience in invite them
in.
But more broadly and may maybe more on a metalevel, you have to create access to
distribution, right, And so you can't getaround the fact that if you're naming that the
digital experience is just inherently differentthan the physical experience that you can have,
(22:45):
then you have to find a way to scale thephysical experience.
We wouldn't be the first to, you know, scale,you know, physical locations all over the
world, not a commercial sense and certainly notfrom a more spiritual context either.
So Right.
The underpinning is the consistent perspectiveon the content.
Right?
How do you scale the content?
And, again, that's been done in variouscontexts as well.
(23:06):
And none of it's easy, but it's all been donebefore.
Governed up before.
As far as market size, just from paid to thinkabout that sometimes, you're like, wow, the
market has it every motherfucker in the world.
Just have you wake them up to that.
That is easy to quantify.
No baton is, like, the gross national happinessscore or whatever they call it.
And whatever it is that was on the other sideof that rainbow is achievable through those
(23:28):
James.
So what do you think are, like, the Bellerhanging common denominators for, like, a large
group of people?
Like, the gateway drug for lack of a Beller.
Oh, okay.
Are we looking for the gateway drug, or are welooking for the lowest common denominators?
Because it's hard to argue you know, one overthe other when you start talking about, you
know, everything from nutrition to physical andemotional fitness.
(23:51):
I mean,
Well, yeah, one thing is, like, the gatewaydrug for, like, a larger group of Pete.
Like, I was, you know, like, a few weeks ago,as you know, with it hanging out with you, and
I think other people as Beller, and we weretalking about how there's this service for
Beverly Hills School for parents can, like, goonline the night before and order their kids'
(24:12):
hot lunches, like, you know, like cow Caesarstyle and green juice and stuff like that.
And, like, how often is there's someone elsesitting around the table who was not from
Beverly Hills, and was like, you guys arefucking ridiculous.
Like, that's obviously not an actual mainstreambusiness, and that led us to looking up
lunchables because he's like lunchables is whatmost kids Pete at school.
And we found some fact online someone couldfact check me.
(24:35):
I didn't fully fact check this, but it said the49,700,000 Americans bought punchables in,
like, 2021, I think.
So Wow.
That I know it's Unique.
That's unique.
A lot, but I think it was like statistics.comor whatever the status website you just told
me.
So this a lot, but regardless of the it's that,or if it's even half of that, let's say
$25,000,000, it's like you really consumedthis.
(24:56):
People bought lunchables, you realize that themajority of the market people were buying
lunchables.
And that's why and mindable conversations.
Let me run with that.
Yeah.
So speaking to someone else.
Shout out to anybody who's eating lunchables.
Lunchables right now.
Shout out.
Yeah.
A lunchable is also, but although they'reactually horrible for you.
But I was speaking to someone else, probably,that this topic of the nurse base, it was,
like, Morgan, like, you're not new at this, butthey're research going on about this for 30
(25:19):
years.
Like, everyone's doing this already.
I'm like, yeah, everyone's doing this in, like,this, like, the proverbial like, we could use
this too much.
I in Beverly Hills And Mill Valley in SanFrancisco and Hudson Valley, but like the
Lunchables market isn't doing this at the samescale.
So to ask the question differently, again, whatdo you think the gateway drugs to interspace
for the lunchables market are or in exploringinterspace
(25:42):
I really want to be on the side of havingpeople realize that it's gotta be multimodality
and that you have to take a holistic approach.
To understanding this conversation.
And so if you had to pin me down on one thing,then I would say it's, you know, you gotta
start with the control center.
And however you can get to the control center,call your mind or your brain.
Some people are able to access betterwell-being in the control center.
(26:07):
By doing physical exercise.
Mhmm.
But to the extent, you can get people to domeditation and breath work and faster sustained
attention in nervous system regulation, thenthe downstream effects are, you know, better
decision making, lower motivation, Right?
Like, he is just mastering the control center.
And whatever you're waiting to that, that couldbe swimming that could be running, you can
(26:30):
start observing your breath and then comingcoming in and out You can have your mouth shut
while doing it while running.
Like, right?
There's so many ways that you could break thatdown, but that is the gateway.
And and that's why I think modalities likebrass work that are so immediate that are Mhmm.
Immediately shifting your state, your emotionalstate, your physical state, your nerve through
your nervous system.
(26:50):
I think those can be so powerful and can reallywake people up to the reality of what you can
feel like Yes.
When you have more balance.
Right?
I guess you force me to answer it with onething of actually, but I do wanna make sure
that I'm putting out there that, you know, Ihave to take up It's
not one size for show.
Or different ways.
You
know, some people wake up with crippling.
(27:11):
I, you know, if you prescribe that personactive breath work in the morning, that's not
gonna go over very well.
And some people wake up groggy and, you know,it can't open their eyes.
And so, yeah, maybe a more a little bit moreactive breath work might get them going.
Right?
And so you have to embrace those realities andunderstand that.
But I think there's one thing to train.
It's the ability to sustain your attention.
(27:31):
That's the thing that's crippled most by therise of information age and the inundation of
so much sensory overload and technology andinformation overload.
In the beginning, I guess, like, an hour ago.
And then let me know.
I'm not when you stop driving, let me know.
But you referenced that, like, one of theissues as far as, like, adoption is that there
(27:53):
is there's, like, shit we need to clean down,you know, there's, like, some people poisoning
the will because, like, not all like, lulu asnegative brand connotation for things that are
positive and Wu has negative brand connotationfor things that are negative.
So I'm curious of what you think are the likewho's poisoning the Beller
I'll start by saying a lot.
Things that I wanna do.
Not I don't wanna make you enemies, but, like,what are the things that people should be
(28:15):
careful of?
Yeah.
I wanna start by saying it's often very wellmeaning people who I've seen time and time
again have been really struck by the practiceor practices or ways of living or modalities
that are really, you know, potent.
You know, what a beautiful thing.
They want to bring that to other people Right?
(28:35):
And it's really profound, and it comes from areally often from a really sincere place and a
really beautiful place.
So I wanna name that first because I don'twanna spread negativity on the matter of anyone
who's really trying to put good out in theworld.
But what we keep coming back to in thisconversation is this inkling, this very strong
inkling that the next wave of community thatgathers around this thread that we keep getting
(29:00):
at of these modalities and these practices andthese ways of living, that the next wave of it
is gonna look a little different And I thinkthat that next wave is stripping away, you
know, really pushing forth certain spiritualability but rather presenting these things that
are really impactful for people in a way thatfeels unbundled from from that context.
(29:21):
Yes.
Think you believe that too.
Right?
I mean, you led
me to you led the horse to the water heater,but yeah, there's something I went to this
future of mental health on conference a fewweeks ago, and it felt like things were both so
early and imminent.
And, like, the research that's coming out andthe way people are talking about things.
And then Yeah.
(29:42):
I think that comes back to a, yeah, I guess,early is a a thing to analyze, right, is it
early from a commercialization standpoint?
Is it early from a market adoption standpoint?
Is it early from, you know, who's around theBeller?
And working on this.
You know, I've been in the space not that long,you know, professionally, but I've been around
long enough to see how resources are beingallocated and how thematically, you know, what
(30:07):
a private capital swings to, based on, youknow, the latest craze and what we believe that
it could be the most return on investment.
This AI thing is apparently a thing.
I don't know.
I it's true.
You know, it's interesting.
I don't no.
But I mean, it's why, you know, you're watchingthe fervor and it's tremendous for all sorts of
reasons.
I think a lot of people have positive for allor all sorts of reasons.
(30:30):
Who cares in terms of the judgment of it.
But the thing I'm trying to highlight is lookat the amount of resources that are being
flushed toward this thing.
Right.
You know, like, it feels like overnight in thescheme of things.
Right?
Look at that.
I mean, we we've talked about even crypto andyou know, look at the amount of resources that
have come in and out of that based on thereality of the value.
(30:52):
Yeah.
It.
Right?
And so, you know, I've raised venture for whatI'm working on.
I can't tell you how often I've heard questionsaround.
You you just said that Pam was maybe everybodyAnd then I've had conversations where, you
know, the venture community is trying toanalyze and understand what is the market
opportunity for you know, well-being practiceslike the ones that we're talking about right
(31:14):
now.
And they're looking at charts, and they'relooking at market calm, you know, that there
may be over for simplifying and looking at, youknow, like, meditate meditation app.
Yeah.
Like, it's easy until the breakout happens Andthen, you know, you don't see the breakout
coming.
That's kind of the nature of the breakout.
Right?
But I do think there's a bit of a chicken andegg happening here in terms of resources going
(31:39):
into this conversation.
And I don't you know, I think the conversationspans everything from what we're Flint quote,
and I I'm busting out their quotes now astraditional Beller care to, you know, call it
consumer well-being.
If that's a spectrum that we wanna layout.
Right?
And I think it's just really interesting to seehow resources are being allocated in response
(32:00):
to the James that we're talking about.
One last question before I have to get on apitch, which I'm sure will be wonderful, but I
don't know what is something that you're justobsessed with right now that you don't think
I'm aware of.
Like something that you can't stop talkingabout thinking about because 5, 6 years ago,
that was meditation and breath work.
I wish I listened sooner than I did, but we'rehere now.
(32:22):
So what's the next thing that
what's the next thing?
Wish I'm gonna hear obsessed with right now.
Like, do you think it would be
easier for me?
I've been doing it for a long time, but I'mobsessed with it again.
That's have you ever done death meditationdeath meditations?
Yeah.
Death meditation.
I cannot say that I have.
Yeah.
So, I mean, there's many ways to go about it,but the basic premise is to contemplate and
(32:45):
embrace the very definite reality that you aregonna die.
And it's, like, actually a great morningpractice.
Believe it or not, I can send you one.
My cousin has term like, turned me on well,didn't turn me on to it because I haven't done
it, but made me aware of, like, the New YorkHealth Experience YouTube Oh.
Before the Netflix show came out, which soundssimilar.
(33:07):
And Yeah.
I see.
If you've got in.
Yeah.
It's a really simple set of, like, you know,and the again, there's a couple different
scripts you can go through with it, but it'sreally just a set of prompts to meditate on,
you know, meditate on the fact that you'regonna die one day and that you don't know how
you're gonna die.
And Yeah.
Your body can't save you in that moment, youknow, your friends, your family can't save you
(33:29):
in that moment.
And you know, there's just a a series of thingsthat you would meditate on.
And, you know, there's just nothing as profoundas to you know, embrace how finite this version
of our existence really is, and it can bereally inspiring way to start your day and
think about what it is you wanna do.
How you want to live that day?
Well, on that positive note of being happy andat peace with our ultimate I love you a lot.
(33:56):
Thanks for hanging out with me.
Yeah.
Love you more.
Call me anytime I'm driving.
I'm gonna definitely be calling you when you'redriving.
And please, your eyes on the
road Okay.
Talk soon.
Thank you.
You too.
Bye.
Bye.
Subscribe and stay tuned for more phone afriend with Morgan Beller.
Created by an effects.
Hey.
It's Morgan Beller, general partner, NFX.
Welcome to phone a friend, a new experimentwhere we're going to let you listen in on
conversations as they happen naturally.
To kick things off, I called Ride Kwaja, aclose friend and co founder and CEO of Open a
mindfulness and meditation platform who'sraised close to $15,000,000 to help friends be
(00:21):
present together, and I'm excited to share thisconversation with you.
Enjoy.
Well, well, well.
Well, well, well,
(00:42):
Pete we are.
We're doing it.
Here we are.
Is this Morgan Beller?
If you can believe it or not, Morgan Beller,some background noise from the chaos of the
office, and probably a barking jiffithy becausethere's chicken in sight.
There's a chicken in sight.
Is that what
I heard?
There's chicken.
I have there's chicken on the plate inside ofthe dog.
I see.
(01:02):
I was going for more of a barnyard scene.
You had chickens running about.
In the middle of Pays Valley.
Are you back from your travels?
And my back from my travels.
Yeah.
So last week, we had our founder retreat at aranch in Flint Reyes, which was pretty great
other than the fact that Josie was covered inticks Okay.
(01:23):
12 out of 10, don't recommend.
I think I got them all out.
And then she got her hair dyed in her shirt'sridiculous.
And then I had a wedding in Aspen, which wasbeautiful.
Got that yet.
Are they still somewhat recovering hopefully intime for my brother's wedding this weekend?
Amazing.
Where is that?
It's in Portola Valley.
We're just south of the city, and I'm the bestman, and I have the right of speech, and it's
(01:45):
currently a blank to pay for the 0.
There's a lot of responsibility because youhave to be funny.
You can't just like Yeah.
Yes, ma'am.
Lucky for you.
You are funny as a default mode.
So just make sure words come out of your mouth.
I just make sure Yeah.
You asked you asked where I am I am in afamiliar place with you and I chatting.
(02:05):
I am on the Pete moving south back towardsVenice, and it's a beautiful day.
It's clear.
It's sunny.
It's everything LA was told to be.
Well, this is goddamn perfect because well,we're experimenting with the telephone a friend
thing, but the ideas that we're just in ournatural places, in our natural states, in our
natural thing.
We're just calling each other.
(02:26):
And some of my most insightful moments havecome from calls that you've made to me driving
up and down the Pete over the past 3 years ofCOVID.
So and no reason to believe this will be anydifferent.
I agree.
And I I reflect that right back at you.
Or once I'm not walking, because I was scaredof sirens, and too much noise in the
(02:47):
background, but we'll see.
How's he's Valley these days?
Well, I'm not sure if you heard that it's nowat Cerabro Valley.
We one of the first things I did when joiningNSX, like, almost 3 years ago, it was like
we're getting the FOCA and some of the healthcare.
But the rest of San Francisco in many ways isbetter than it was pre COVID and that it's the
(03:07):
first time I think people are intentionallychoosing to live here versus just being here by
proxy for a job.
And we've lost some great ones like yourself,but Oh, we won't stay.
And there's outdoor dining, 3 164 days a year.
So wanted us to be in a residentialneighborhood.
You landed on 8.
It's kind of in the center of the city.
And then I'd like to take credit for what ithas become, but honestly, just by luck, it's
(03:33):
now Serebral Valley, whatever that means, Ithink it means that there's, like, AI companies
popping up everywhere.
Is it called Cerebral Valley?
Is that a thing?
Oh, it's a big ride.
You're still out of it?
I'm so out of it.
So James Valley is the midbrain to SanFrancisco now.
Is that
Correct.
Correct.
Yeah.
It's called Cerebral Valley.
Like, you literally walk down the street andyou see people like hacking and garages, which
(03:56):
is how it used to be before I can evenremember, I mean, I wasn't here for any of
that.
And, like, all the telephone polls are coveredin flyers and posters for hackathons and happy
hours.
And these really weird cats in, like, theBeller Courtyard park thing by, ritual coffee.
And it feels pretty much Relativity.
(04:16):
Relatively center.
I hear you.
And then our office is, hopefully, the centerof that, but we're working on it.
And a lot of people to work from here.
So we've been hosting these, like, AI happyhours and last, like, 10 days ago we
experimented with open office hours whereanyone, we were like, hey, anyone on the
internet is working on an AI company come workfrom our office.
(04:37):
And that was kind of a dream.
What's getting a space bigger than what weneeded.
And then I walked into the office that night.
And on one hand, that was, like, dream cometrue because it was packed.
But on the other hand, I'm like, holy shit thatfeels like project x.
You know, the movie project x when the parentscome home, and it says it was trash.
There was somebody on my desk.
Kinda feel like an invasion of my personalspace, refrigerator is empty, your beer bottles
(05:00):
everywhere.
So we're figuring out what the happy medium is,but that's positive.
Yeah.
Acquisition check retention and quality.
That's what we're working on next.
Okay.
You're in the center of it.
You've created the center of it.
Congratulations.
Serebral Valley smack dab in the center ofCerebral Valley.
You know, it's interesting.
The center of the brain, right there, somewherein the middle, I recently learned that there's
(05:24):
these, like, 2 clusters of nerve cells thatexist that basically decide whether you're
going to act with courage or whether you'regonna act with fear.
They happen to be just mapped out next to eachother.
So I thought I'd just
tell you that.
I didn't
learn that as scientifically, but I had ameditation experience recently.
And maybe this Did you
(05:44):
just put air quotes while you said that?
Yeah.
I had a journey.
I Pete air quotes around journey, butexperienced recently where the guide, who was
wonderful.
It was gonna be a full day.
Session, and they gave some meditationprinciples in the opening remarks.
And one of the principle that they went overwas the concept of fear.
(06:08):
And how fear is something I'm gonna use wayless eloquent words to describe it, but that
fear is usually is something that most peoplesee and never do anything with, but that on the
other side of fear is something exciting.
Like, if you could, like, think what it wouldfeel like to get on the other side of whatever
that thing is that you fear.
And that fear and excitement, I think it wasexcitement, like, actually are very and learn
(06:29):
energy, they're putting energies in air quotes.
But that Well, but emotions may be boiled downto the same emotions.
Yeah.
And the body has a similar physiological ofother responses up to you, but if you look at
what's happening physiologically that yeah.
And now you're saying that that's there'sscience there.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, well, that's funny.
I used to say actual science, and then we talkabout, you know, ancient wisdom and actual
(06:52):
science and what's observable over what we'reinferring.
It's all fun stuff, but, yeah, fear.
I used to think it was a useless emotion, ayoung brash, rise, said fear.
That's useless.
It's actually pretty useful, I guess, though.
You know, that's
How so?
Get get you out of gets you out of someprecarious situations.
Right?
(07:12):
Sometimes you do need to just run.
Like, but not always.
It can be confusing.
It can be confusing for the nervous system.
It can be confusing for those nerve cells toreally decide whether to react or respond in a
way that's bold or a way that's calm.
All stuff that you can train and be Bellerequipped for, though.
You said you were gonna ask me a betterquestion.
(07:33):
Well, that kind of gets kind of like a segway.
So as you know, I've been in crypto land forthe better part of the past 6 years and it's
been fun in there, you know, some good timesand bad times, but, been Thank you, Mel.
Is there anything else that interests me?
And it hasn't even been as much of a passivequestion as it's been, like, an active
realization that there is this, like, wholeother area Flint me for which I have a lot to
(07:58):
thank you for because when we talked about thisa few weeks ago, but I did not meditate.
I didn't know what the sound bath was.
I didn't know what breath work was other thanlike breathing.
And with no disrespect, because I've learnedLike, I thought it was all focused focus.
And then you introduced me to this world in away that was very understandable for me, at
(08:23):
least had pulled me in in a way that made metrust and believe that quote, this was real.
And it was my life has changed for the Beller,and I feel like I'm 0.001 percent of the way of
understanding what that is.
And then that's kind of like been coincidingwith this question, which or Riddle, which
might not have an answer, but realizing that 3of the biggest businesses of all time for
(08:45):
mankind's history have been in Women's history,person kinds.
I don't know what you're supposed have beencigarette alcohol and religion and that Gen Z
is kind of out for all three a lot of people Iknow are also out for all read by the
traditional definitions of it, but despite thatfact being the case, the part of the human
brain, bring this back to the brain that madethose industries so big, you're still there?
(09:08):
So what's going to replace that?
And then, like, feeling and seeing all thechange that has been introduced to my life
through, like, your practice as a method.
I'm like, well, wouldn't that be great?
If all these things become more mainstream,make sure I spend air quotes too.
And then I know what you're talking about this.
I already know what my question is, but like,
Morgan a prompt.
Yeah.
About that.
Yeah.
(09:28):
More of a prompt.
Yeah.
We've talked about this here and there.
I feel like, you know, maybe even lessstructured way, but Yeah.
I think the you mentioned religions.
I call them the o g well-being brands.
Right?
Nobody did community and practice better thanthem.
You have literal physical spaces where peoplegather and commune and practice all sorts, but
(09:49):
these modalities are not Morgan to a lot ofthose institutions Pete.
Right?
You mentioned it as movement, breathing,acoustic environment.
Now these are very much long held traditions.
And it's interesting that you mentioned thingslike cigarettes and alcohol as well.
Right?
It's like folks are reaching for alcohol.
(10:11):
What's really going on there as press thatwhat's happening to your nervous system.
If that's the desired result, does it have tocome with all the chemical waste and byproduct?
That comes with consuming alcohol, or can you,you know, down regulate your nervous system,
maybe, and really definitive and purposeful wayto smoking cigarettes that's one form of breath
(10:31):
work.
It is conscious control breathing in a way, butthere's a stimulant there.
There's a focus thing half there.
There's an appetite thing happening there.
So, yeah, I think if you break down all thesethings to their atomic levels, then you can
explore much more potent, much healthier waysof going about basically practicing towards
(10:51):
your well-being or being able to engage withyour life or reality, however, how do you wanna
get with it in a way that feels reallysustaining, really meaningful, really
purposeful.
Right?
So, yeah, now I'm there with you.
How do we do it?
Oh, thank you.
I mean, Christy, and you have, like, a prettybig common denominator.
A lot of people were in.
So are, like, on train.
(11:12):
And I guess I think about, like, theseexperiences that I've had, part of the magic
has been that they've been in person, you know,breadth the open studio, for example.
Yep.
And in small ish group and also feels likestill branded in some, like, negative ways.
Like, you know, quote, we, like, we, you know,name this person by name, but there's somebody,
(11:33):
like, work with in respect a lot who has a lotof, Pete and a lot of
A lot of Beller.
A lot
of Beller.
Yeah.
A lot
of Beller and a lot of the science stuff tobring this back to the science topic.
Yeah.
So I I have to hear a quote here.
Yeah.
I mean, scientist.
Right?
I'm all in our time, but yeah.
Observing truth.
Right?
And there's assuming to do that.
(11:55):
Yeah.
But keep going.
Beller was explaining this with soundexperience that I add, and he clearly was just
instantly dismissive of the whole thing and waslike, you know, for the hocus pocus comment, it
was like, absolutely not.
Like, they're that's not science.
Like, don't believe any of that shit.
And I'm gonna get to my point, but I was like,listening to some podcast recently about, like,
what's perceived to be legitimate is correlatedwith what is published in journals, like,
(12:20):
nature, science, etcetera.
And what's published is objective as far as theresults, but somewhat subjective based on the
topic that the editors want to see And there'sa hypothesis that I was like the current
generation of editors will be hiring the nextgeneration or more millennials will usher in a
desire to Pete, you know, double blind scienceback studies for prolet traffic breathing and
(12:45):
sound work and other things like that.
So where I'm going with this is like a fewareas.
1, how does this all become this in air quotesbecome mainstream, which has answered your
questions, including, like, religion was siloedinto different religions.
Right?
Is that that Muslim Christianity, Judaism,Judaism, how big can the
And many more.
(13:05):
10, many more.
Shout out and solve great religions.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Thank you.
Right.
So there's many more long tail.
There's a long tail to get related up there.
But
Many, many great institutions.
Yeah.
Do we think that there can be a critical massaround some of these experience or products?
And then, like, the other part of it is like,how do we destigmatize the negative
(13:29):
connotations associated with Wulu and, like,with the branding of some of these practices?
Yeah.
Maybe we can talk about it together.
I can answer them, but I think we should jam onthese together.
The first thing that came to mind as you talkedabout it Beller, there's two things that came
to mind.
Immediately, and then maybe you can riff withme on some more.
But, you know, part of where that voodoo hocuspocus Riff Raf James from, and a lot of those
(13:54):
objections are honestly from really the wellrooted places in that people have come into
contact with a lot of these modalities can bevery efficacious with context that is not
legitimate, or people have sprinkled in theirown interpretation of a modality or a practice.
(14:15):
And they've kind of bent it to their ownbeliefs them.
And so they kinda almost muddy the waters forthe underlying thing that's really valuable and
efficacious if that makes sense.
Right?
And so I think just starting from a place wheresome of that rejection comes from, I just had
to name that there's a lot of trash.
Out there, frankly.
Right?
And if
you just say press 4,
(14:37):
I think, yeah, you'd I mean, with qual so thetwo things that came to mind immediately were
quality, and the other one was storytelling.
Right?
And so there's many means where you can deliverthese practices, right, opens exploring the
idea of delivering these practices throughexperiences both on and offline as an example.
(14:57):
Right?
That's pretty general, but just to name that,you know, you could be consuming this through
more traditional Beller care, you could beconsuming this, not through commercial means,
but through community and friends, whatever itmay be.
Right?
But whatever the delivery mechanism having highquality experiences that are vetted, both
science backed, as well as a really studiedinterdisciplinary understanding of these
(15:22):
practices and their roots from variousdifferent places and then distilling and
curating those to a point where the end userhas something of very high quality can really
start to address those who are skeptical Right?
Because, ultimately, once they come in contactwith with the experience, you know, you can
justify things later through whatever means ofcredibility is most valuable for people.
(15:46):
But when people actually feel different andthey come on come into contact with quality
experiences, it's hard to argue with.
Right?
And you saw that probably in a lot of theexperiences that you've come to open.
Right?
The other one is storytelling.
Well, that's why I've been really fascinatedabout the role brands can play.
And notice I say brands, open is not meant tobe the panacea here, but hopefully there's many
(16:08):
brands that emerge that are attempting toanswer the question that or the prompt, I
guess, that you just put Morgan.
And, hopefully, they're all going through areally rigorous, you know, pro call it a
product development or design process to comeup with experiences that are really worthwhile
for people.
And if they do so, how they position thosepractices is really where the storytelling
(16:32):
comes in.
Right?
How do you get people actually to do the thing?
We have no insecurity about these modalitiesand whether or not they're worthwhile.
But how do you actually convince somebody tocome to the studio to download the app, to
learn a technique, and do so on their own?
In a repeated way.
That's the art of, you know, call it marketing,call it deduction, call it storytelling, call
(16:56):
it positioning, whatever you wanna call it.
It's probably all of those things.
Right?
How do you really get people inspired toactually do the thing?
And then how do you make it easy for them to beable to access that?
I think these are the things that we would haveto explore to and I'll use the word used to
make these practices mainstream.
And what do
you think is, like, the biggest up to that overthere?
Because I was, like, So you kindly let us cohost something in your perfect space a few
(17:22):
weeks ago, and I invited a lot of people tothis, like, breath and sound class who were
previously skeptical and
How'd it go?
Reactions?
I think we have, like, a year and I, because wehave, like, what, 5 plus people like a former
colleague who has Beller done anything close tothis was like holy shit.
This was ten times even crazier in a positiveway than what you had described.
(17:42):
And so one of our founders, but this I hadtwenty times, I think that what you said, the
experience that I have, you know, quote, just,like, Morgan more air quotes, less air
meditating.
And like I walked away with this, like thinkingabout, like, you know, breathing is believing,
sort of like seeing is believing.
And I don't know what your conversion rate isor what the conversion rate is for like, breath
work generally, but you can't deny that yourbody is feeling these things that your brain is
(18:06):
talking to you in different ways.
And I guess, like, the science is you've beensaying, but getting people in the door required
some, like, peer pressure in than others.
But then once people are there, they're like,holy, like, you can't, it's like, smack you in
the face.
Like, how do we get people there?
I know it's like one of the big questions.
You're asking, and then related to that islike, how do you scale the magic?
(18:29):
I think your app is doing as a good of a job asanyone is not better than anyone as making you
feel and in the room with other Pete, even ifyou're sitting by yourself on your couch at
home.
Yeah.
But there's some
extra special about the in person
Yeah.
I mean, that's one thing to name.
I mean, just Pete me be starting in reverseorder.
Often, I see designers trying to recreatesomething one for one that's happening in a
(18:52):
different environment that, you know, anenvironment that has different constraints,
right?
I think you got to look at the constraints asopportunities.
You have to look at the constraints that okay.
In this environment, what's possible that's notimpossible in the other environment?
And how do we design for the best possibleexperience and the most relevant experience for
this context.
Right?
So somebody who's on the go and needs 5minutes, it's a very different context than
(19:16):
somebody who's coming with a friend, getting intheir car for 10 minutes, parking down the
street, and spending an hour at the studio andgrabbing food afterwards.
Right?
It's a very different context than somebody whohas committed to go on a retreat for a day, 2
days, 3 days.
So, you know, one of the things that's just toembrace the reality of that and to design to
(19:36):
that end.
Right?
The other piece you were talking
about, like, how do you example, I won't letyou take
care of
the Pete, but I'm like, yeah.
Like, designing today.
I'm not gonna forget.
You have my complete undivided attention here.
I'm just driving aim aimlessly at this point.
Right?
An autopilot.
Yeah.
I actually have
But when you say that, and I your brain is justso much more creative than mine, where I'm
like, yeah.
I can textually totally with you.
(19:57):
But, like, what's it?
What does that mean?
Or I could, like, a tangible example of that.
What that means is, you know, let's play outthe digital versus in person class example.
Mhmm.
So Eventually, I can be in your ear withAirPods.
I can design an acoustic experience thatleverages binaural audio.
(20:18):
I can design an acoustic experience that'shighly detailed and meeting you, you know, on
your left ear and your right ear versusamplified sound in the studio with speakers
hanging from the ceiling.
Right?
As those are just right?
It's nuanced, but it's it's it really changeshow you would design the experience, maybe
(20:38):
something more practical.
In the studio environment, you have peoplebreathing with you.
Let's say you're doing, you know, 20 to 30 ofbreathing exercise, and that feels really
supportive.
You have 20 to 30 people breathing with you,and it creates a totally different type of
experience And sometimes people have troublegoing as deep as they might go if they were on
(20:59):
their own at home.
And we've seen that.
We've talked to plenty of users that say, hey.
I was really intimidated being in theenvironment.
I really didn't feel like I could you know,lean into the experience because Yeah.
A car almost just hit me, by the way.
Well, that's, I mean, stuff on it.
Notice notice the car almost hit me.
I didn't hit it.
Right.
Yeah.
(21:19):
So, yeah, you just play off those things.
Right?
And you say, okay.
Well, I have this person at the home and theirindividual experience versus in a space where
the guide needs to lead 30 different peoplethrough an experience.
It's just a really different thing.
Right.
There's a second point you were gonna makebefore Flint interrupted you.
Well, you talked about activation interview.
(21:40):
Right?
It said, hey, honey.
You actually get people to the experience.
Okay.
If the experiential knowledge is a big unlock,and we just need to have people arrive at that
experience in the first place.
And I think you have the same problem anyproduct or service has where you need to get
people in, and you need to get them to try it.
(22:02):
Right?
And you do whatever you can to make that easyand possible for people.
You mentioned that, you know, you had to referyour Flint really actively to be able to come,
how are we enabling the refer?
What are we arming arming the refer with interms of language in terms of incentive, in
(22:23):
terms of literal hyperlink to make it easy forpeople to share the experience in invite them
in.
But more broadly and may maybe more on a metalevel, you have to create access to
distribution, right, And so you can't getaround the fact that if you're naming that the
digital experience is just inherently differentthan the physical experience that you can have,
(22:45):
then you have to find a way to scale thephysical experience.
We wouldn't be the first to, you know, scale,you know, physical locations all over the
world, not a commercial sense and certainly notfrom a more spiritual context either.
So Right.
The underpinning is the consistent perspectiveon the content.
Right?
How do you scale the content?
And, again, that's been done in variouscontexts as well.
(23:06):
And none of it's easy, but it's all been donebefore.
Governed up before.
As far as market size, just from paid to thinkabout that sometimes, you're like, wow, the
market has it every motherfucker in the world.
Just have you wake them up to that.
That is easy to quantify.
No baton is, like, the gross national happinessscore or whatever they call it.
And whatever it is that was on the other sideof that rainbow is achievable through those
(23:28):
James.
So what do you think are, like, the Bellerhanging common denominators for, like, a large
group of people?
Like, the gateway drug for lack of a Beller.
Oh, okay.
Are we looking for the gateway drug, or are welooking for the lowest common denominators?
Because it's hard to argue you know, one overthe other when you start talking about, you
know, everything from nutrition to physical andemotional fitness.
(23:51):
I mean,
Well, yeah, one thing is, like, the gatewaydrug for, like, a larger group of Pete.
Like, I was, you know, like, a few weeks ago,as you know, with it hanging out with you, and
I think other people as Beller, and we weretalking about how there's this service for
Beverly Hills School for parents can, like, goonline the night before and order their kids'
(24:12):
hot lunches, like, you know, like cow Caesarstyle and green juice and stuff like that.
And, like, how often is there's someone elsesitting around the table who was not from
Beverly Hills, and was like, you guys arefucking ridiculous.
Like, that's obviously not an actual mainstreambusiness, and that led us to looking up
lunchables because he's like lunchables is whatmost kids Pete at school.
And we found some fact online someone couldfact check me.
(24:35):
I didn't fully fact check this, but it said the49,700,000 Americans bought punchables in,
like, 2021, I think.
So Wow.
That I know it's Unique.
That's unique.
A lot, but I think it was like statistics.comor whatever the status website you just told
me.
So this a lot, but regardless of the it's that,or if it's even half of that, let's say
$25,000,000, it's like you really consumedthis.
(24:56):
People bought lunchables, you realize that themajority of the market people were buying
lunchables.
And that's why and mindable conversations.
Let me run with that.
Yeah.
So speaking to someone else.
Shout out to anybody who's eating lunchables.
Lunchables right now.
Shout out.
Yeah.
A lunchable is also, but although they'reactually horrible for you.
But I was speaking to someone else, probably,that this topic of the nurse base, it was,
like, Morgan, like, you're not new at this, butthey're research going on about this for 30
(25:19):
years.
Like, everyone's doing this already.
I'm like, yeah, everyone's doing this in, like,this, like, the proverbial like, we could use
this too much.
I in Beverly Hills And Mill Valley in SanFrancisco and Hudson Valley, but like the
Lunchables market isn't doing this at the samescale.
So to ask the question differently, again, whatdo you think the gateway drugs to interspace
for the lunchables market are or in exploringinterspace
(25:42):
I really want to be on the side of havingpeople realize that it's gotta be multimodality
and that you have to take a holistic approach.
To understanding this conversation.
And so if you had to pin me down on one thing,then I would say it's, you know, you gotta
start with the control center.
And however you can get to the control center,call your mind or your brain.
Some people are able to access betterwell-being in the control center.
(26:07):
By doing physical exercise.
Mhmm.
But to the extent, you can get people to domeditation and breath work and faster sustained
attention in nervous system regulation, thenthe downstream effects are, you know, better
decision making, lower motivation, Right?
Like, he is just mastering the control center.
And whatever you're waiting to that, that couldbe swimming that could be running, you can
(26:30):
start observing your breath and then comingcoming in and out You can have your mouth shut
while doing it while running.
Like, right?
There's so many ways that you could break thatdown, but that is the gateway.
And and that's why I think modalities likebrass work that are so immediate that are Mhmm.
Immediately shifting your state, your emotionalstate, your physical state, your nerve through
your nervous system.
(26:50):
I think those can be so powerful and can reallywake people up to the reality of what you can
feel like Yes.
When you have more balance.
Right?
I guess you force me to answer it with onething of actually, but I do wanna make sure
that I'm putting out there that, you know, Ihave to take up It's
not one size for show.
Or different ways.
You
know, some people wake up with crippling.
(27:11):
I, you know, if you prescribe that personactive breath work in the morning, that's not
gonna go over very well.
And some people wake up groggy and, you know,it can't open their eyes.
And so, yeah, maybe a more a little bit moreactive breath work might get them going.
Right?
And so you have to embrace those realities andunderstand that.
But I think there's one thing to train.
It's the ability to sustain your attention.
(27:31):
That's the thing that's crippled most by therise of information age and the inundation of
so much sensory overload and technology andinformation overload.
In the beginning, I guess, like, an hour ago.
And then let me know.
I'm not when you stop driving, let me know.
But you referenced that, like, one of theissues as far as, like, adoption is that there
(27:53):
is there's, like, shit we need to clean down,you know, there's, like, some people poisoning
the will because, like, not all like, lulu asnegative brand connotation for things that are
positive and Wu has negative brand connotationfor things that are negative.
So I'm curious of what you think are the likewho's poisoning the Beller
I'll start by saying a lot.
Things that I wanna do.
Not I don't wanna make you enemies, but, like,what are the things that people should be
(28:15):
careful of?
Yeah.
I wanna start by saying it's often very wellmeaning people who I've seen time and time
again have been really struck by the practiceor practices or ways of living or modalities
that are really, you know, potent.
You know, what a beautiful thing.
They want to bring that to other people Right?
(28:35):
And it's really profound, and it comes from areally often from a really sincere place and a
really beautiful place.
So I wanna name that first because I don'twanna spread negativity on the matter of anyone
who's really trying to put good out in theworld.
But what we keep coming back to in thisconversation is this inkling, this very strong
inkling that the next wave of community thatgathers around this thread that we keep getting
(29:00):
at of these modalities and these practices andthese ways of living, that the next wave of it
is gonna look a little different And I thinkthat that next wave is stripping away, you
know, really pushing forth certain spiritualability but rather presenting these things that
are really impactful for people in a way thatfeels unbundled from from that context.
(29:21):
Yes.
Think you believe that too.
Right?
I mean, you led
me to you led the horse to the water heater,but yeah, there's something I went to this
future of mental health on conference a fewweeks ago, and it felt like things were both so
early and imminent.
And, like, the research that's coming out andthe way people are talking about things.
And then Yeah.
(29:42):
I think that comes back to a, yeah, I guess,early is a a thing to analyze, right, is it
early from a commercialization standpoint?
Is it early from a market adoption standpoint?
Is it early from, you know, who's around theBeller?
And working on this.
You know, I've been in the space not that long,you know, professionally, but I've been around
long enough to see how resources are beingallocated and how thematically, you know, what
(30:07):
a private capital swings to, based on, youknow, the latest craze and what we believe that
it could be the most return on investment.
This AI thing is apparently a thing.
I don't know.
I it's true.
You know, it's interesting.
I don't no.
But I mean, it's why, you know, you're watchingthe fervor and it's tremendous for all sorts of
reasons.
I think a lot of people have positive for allor all sorts of reasons.
(30:30):
Who cares in terms of the judgment of it.
But the thing I'm trying to highlight is lookat the amount of resources that are being
flushed toward this thing.
Right.
You know, like, it feels like overnight in thescheme of things.
Right?
Look at that.
I mean, we we've talked about even crypto andyou know, look at the amount of resources that
have come in and out of that based on thereality of the value.
(30:52):
Yeah.
It.
Right?
And so, you know, I've raised venture for whatI'm working on.
I can't tell you how often I've heard questionsaround.
You you just said that Pam was maybe everybodyAnd then I've had conversations where, you
know, the venture community is trying toanalyze and understand what is the market
opportunity for you know, well-being practiceslike the ones that we're talking about right
(31:14):
now.
And they're looking at charts, and they'relooking at market calm, you know, that there
may be over for simplifying and looking at, youknow, like, meditate meditation app.
Yeah.
Like, it's easy until the breakout happens Andthen, you know, you don't see the breakout
coming.
That's kind of the nature of the breakout.
Right?
But I do think there's a bit of a chicken andegg happening here in terms of resources going
(31:39):
into this conversation.
And I don't you know, I think the conversationspans everything from what we're Flint quote,
and I I'm busting out their quotes now astraditional Beller care to, you know, call it
consumer well-being.
If that's a spectrum that we wanna layout.
Right?
And I think it's just really interesting to seehow resources are being allocated in response
(32:00):
to the James that we're talking about.
One last question before I have to get on apitch, which I'm sure will be wonderful, but I
don't know what is something that you're justobsessed with right now that you don't think
I'm aware of.
Like something that you can't stop talkingabout thinking about because 5, 6 years ago,
that was meditation and breath work.
I wish I listened sooner than I did, but we'rehere now.
(32:22):
So what's the next thing that
what's the next thing?
Wish I'm gonna hear obsessed with right now.
Like, do you think it would be
easier for me?
I've been doing it for a long time, but I'mobsessed with it again.
That's have you ever done death meditationdeath meditations?
Yeah.
Death meditation.
I cannot say that I have.
Yeah.
So, I mean, there's many ways to go about it,but the basic premise is to contemplate and
(32:45):
embrace the very definite reality that you aregonna die.
And it's, like, actually a great morningpractice.
Believe it or not, I can send you one.
My cousin has term like, turned me on well,didn't turn me on to it because I haven't done
it, but made me aware of, like, the New YorkHealth Experience YouTube Oh.
Before the Netflix show came out, which soundssimilar.
(33:07):
And Yeah.
I see.
If you've got in.
Yeah.
It's a really simple set of, like, you know,and the again, there's a couple different
scripts you can go through with it, but it'sreally just a set of prompts to meditate on,
you know, meditate on the fact that you'regonna die one day and that you don't know how
you're gonna die.
And Yeah.
Your body can't save you in that moment, youknow, your friends, your family can't save you
(33:29):
in that moment.
And you know, there's just a a series of thingsthat you would meditate on.
And, you know, there's just nothing as profoundas to you know, embrace how finite this version
of our existence really is, and it can bereally inspiring way to start your day and
think about what it is you wanna do.
How you want to live that day?
Well, on that positive note of being happy andat peace with our ultimate I love you a lot.
(33:56):
Thanks for hanging out with me.
Yeah.
Love you more.
Call me anytime I'm driving.
I'm gonna definitely be calling you when you'redriving.
And please, your eyes on the
road Okay.
Talk soon.
Thank you.
You too.
Bye.
Bye.
Subscribe and stay tuned for more phone afriend with Morgan Beller.
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