January 10, 2023 • 46 mins
There are two parts to building a bioplatform: you have to focus on the science, then you have to think about the business side. When do you partner? When do you develop your own products? How can you determine the real value of a deal? How do you build a strategic network? What avenues are Founders overlooking right now? These are questions our companies ask us all the time. Today, Head of NFXBio Omri Amirav-Dory, Yael Gruenbaum-Cohen, a venture partner at aMoon Fund, and Peter Nell, former Chief Business Officer and head of Therapeutics at Mammoth Biosciences, are charting a roadmap for successful bioplatform business development.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Business
development is the fun start in the company.
It's, the strategic creative, you know, it hasso many elements that are unique.
And in this era where funding is a realchallenge to companies, you can really shine
and move the company to wonderful places withsmart, patient, professional business
(00:28):
development.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the NFXpodcast.
And today, we're going to talk about businessdevelopment in bio, especially bio platform.
So there are 2 parts to building a bioplatform.
You have to focus on the science, then you haveto focus on the business side, when to partner,
(00:49):
when to develop your own product, how to evenpick a Cbo.
It's a lot to handle.
That's why we're brought on guests today.
Peter Neil, Beller, Gubham, Cohen.
The best way to start is maybe a quickintroduction.
I know both of you for many years, but EIL,maybe you can start.
Like, how do you get to this beautiful, youknow, space of Batek?
So, again, thank you, Marie, for having me.
(01:10):
And I think this is a really an awesome topicand so important for what's happening in the
industry now.
Right?
So my name is, yeah, El Greenbaum Morgan.
As you said, I'm a venture partner at AimmuneFund, where it's the largest fund.
And as managing, just over $1,300,000,000.
I joined just a few weeks ago, the fund, butbefore that, I was in business development for
(01:32):
many years.
I was the general manager in my last role ofMedison Ventures, so leading a lot of
licensing, distribution, and investments,mainly in platform companies.
By training.
I'm a DMD Pete and a postdoc in genetics and,really happy to be here with you and Peter.
Yeah.
Thank you.
This is Peter.
So thank you so much I mean, I'm very nice tobe here with you.
(01:52):
So my background is slightly different.
I'm not adventure, but I'm starting a newcompany right now.
So it will be a platform company in the geneediting space.
New technology developed at another company.
So it's officially a spinout, and hopefullythat you will hear more about this next year.
And previously, I was chief business Morganhead of therapeutic strategy at Mammoth
Biosciences, Jennifer Dautner, Pete editingcompany, so also in a very similar sense,
(02:16):
having platform and then expanding intobuilding a pipeline, but also partnering a lot.
And before that, I had co started Casibia,which was the joint venture between Bayer and
Christmas therapeutics focused on Cas9, butagain, having access to the platform and now
translating this into assets and potentiallypartnering as well in the future.
And I came out of Bayer, so that's why I wasinvolved in starting the company.
(02:39):
And there, I had been in many roles.
I'm, chemist by training, so started medicinechemistry lab, but then moved on towards other
functions, business development and licensingfor a very long time.
But I also thought it's very important forbusiness development to understand whole
process of running a drug from not onlydiscovery through, I mean, in the end, treating
patients, right, so on the market.
And that why I decided to go into otherfunctions as Beller.
(03:01):
So spend 2 years in operations, run theportfolio meetings for the company, but got a
lot of insights into pharmacology as Beller,and then also moved on 2 a half years into
commercial.
So really on the strategic marketing Flint, howto build pipeline, but then also launching a
product, market research, and then even lookingat how much money is it making.
Right?
I mean, that's also important after allcompanies to survive.
(03:22):
And so I think very important to have this viewon both sides have worked in big pharma, but
also in small companies.
And so it's very interesting.
Right?
I mean, you know how both sides work, and it'schanging over time, but still, I mean, you have
some insights, right, on which can be veryhelpful.
So a pleasure to be here, and I'm lookingforward to the discussion here.
Great.
So, look, at NFX, the bio, we like to invest inbioplatform.
(03:46):
We actually only invest in platform companies.
We will not invest in 1 small molecule Morganeducation.
We like white platforms.
Where, you know, you can create many differentproducts.
And that also opened the door for manydifferent creative ways to collaborate and do
business development.
The question is how early should you bring abusiness development person on board?
Yeah.
What do you think?
(04:06):
I think you should bring a great businessdevelopment to Cbo or a Pete BD person when
you're ready to actively pursue partnerships.
So Just when you start planning thesepartnerships and you're really ready for that,
that's the time.
Partnerships, licensing deals, or other biz devopportunities, and this person eventually will
(04:27):
be responsible for identifying these, deals forevaluating the potential business
opportunities.
And then they should also be responsible fornegotiating and executing in the early stage.
It's it's an all around player that does all ofthat.
And then that person needs to also manage theserelationships with external partners and engage
(04:48):
internally.
So it really depends if you have a reallystrong CEO, then a talented VP Beller at an
early stage company can support in the shadows.
I think, like, what you try to do in NFX ifyou're an early stage platform company, you
really need a strong VC support that becauselet's say if you're not with Pete 20 years of
(05:09):
connections and you're starting the businessdevelopment, it takes time to build these
trusting relationships.
And that time can be sort of shadowed orbridged by a strong VC, like what we have, the
alpha team and a moon.
Yeah.
I think it's a very good point actually.
So I think you should ask yourself thequestion.
Right?
I mean, what expertise do you need in additionto what the leadership team already has, right?
(05:32):
I mean, there's definitely a whole mix people,right, that come into a new company.
So if you have, like, less experience, cofounders, right, in the leadership team, you
will need this network for example to broughtin, right?
I mean, definitely, I mean, because you don'thave it yet, right?
It's natural.
I mean, you haven't been in the space.
Same for negotiations and so on.
Right?
If you've never done it, I mean, you needsomebody who has done it before.
Right?
Like, in my case, when I start a company, Imight not need a Cbo as early as, you know, a
(05:56):
company where it's a scientist starting companyonly.
Right?
I mean, so I can cover a lot here, and it'smore like a supportive function, right?
So that may be more asked for a VP of businessdevelopment.
Instead of a Cbo.
On the other hand, I think it also depends onhow many deals you want to do, right, and then
what's in addition in it for this position.
Right?
I mean, think about it when you would write thejob description Right?
(06:16):
I mean, what you ask this person to do, right?
Because now with, like, the title inflation, wevery often mix up Cbo with head of BD.
Right?
I mean, so business development is really, forme, it's more the licensing part.
Right?
The Cbo is in addition also corporate strategyright, a licensing strategy and maybe even
pipeline strategy and so on, right, which canbe different from company to company.
(06:37):
It could be that the COO Omri CFO, whoever,right?
I mean, others cover this, but that's for me areal Cbo writer, which is really this
overarching role if you need that earlier,right, I mean, then you might hire a Cbo.
If you really just need to do some deals andit's like a platform Beller deal is very
similar.
You might be better with just a VP of BD,right, because you also need to keep your
(06:59):
people happy, right, in the future.
And if it's not enough to do, if the notfilling and you're not able to bring in your
expertise, then you're not happy.
Right?
And that's also not good.
That's a great point.
So, you know, a lot of CEOs ask me how to findhow do I know that have the right, BT guy or CB
or how to identify the difference between thegood and the great one.
And my usual, answer, good this developmentwill fill the funnel.
(07:20):
And get the meeting, a great business personwill Pete to be able to close the deal.
So how do you evaluate a BD people, being oneof them?
I think it's all the mindset Exactly.
Like you said, it's all the mindset of thatperson.
So a really successful let's call it CBO, but Icompletely agree with Peter that it could be
either or.
Has to be a really good team player, a reallygood team player that knows how to work with
(07:46):
the business people and the science people andthe operational people and sort of know how to
integrate all these functions into a dealbecause, great deal is a deal where both
companies get the most benefit from it.
Right?
Both you and the company you've partnered with.
So it's really a team sports.
And it's funny that I think, Peter, you'llagree.
(08:08):
Many of the people we meet in the businessdevelopment industry used to be in the sports
in competitive sports.
So, they have to have really good strategicthinking.
Even if they're a CDO or business development,they have to have perfect communication skills.
They're always facing out, but always facingin.
They have to work with internal stakeholderswith external stakeholders.
(08:32):
They work with lawyers.
They work with science people.
So they have to be at least bilingual,business, and science, but also really strong
people skills.
And maybe the last thing that's very hard toevaluate when you're looking for a person but
is super important is negotiation skills, butbecause that's the difference from good to
great, a person that wants to get the deal doneand understand that the most important thing is
(08:55):
you want a win win situation for the deal.
So something really important is greatnegotiation skills and agility.
And if he's a Cbo and he's a real part of theleadership team, then he should be a true
leader.
VP Bizdev is one position and a Cbo is a partof a leadership team and should set a
(09:16):
leadership example.
As a person as well.
Yeah.
I mean, very well.
So I think the value of the deals, right, Imean, that's the very important part.
Right?
I mean, so it's not only the financial terms.
Right?
I mean, sometimes you get these deal sheets,right, and people break about, like, the
$5,000,000,000 Beller, whatever, right, them,we all know these are bio bucks, right, which
might never come into fruition.
(09:36):
But it's more about kind of strategy behind adeal.
Right?
I mean, so when were they done, right, how werethey done, where they help for the company.
Right?
I mean, or both companies, as you said, areactually Morgan.
Right?
I mean, so did you choose the right partner asI mean, all these things, right, come together,
which makes a great business developmentperson, right, instead of just getting a deal
done.
I mean, as this is saying, like, I mean, manypeople can sell the pope a double bet, right,
(09:58):
but that's not the good, right?
I mean, because there's need it.
Right?
I mean, it's also about what comes out of this,right?
I mean, so you need the whole thing comestogether.
The many components of this development wise.
And I think trust is also one very importantthing, right?
For a business development person going out, Imean, I want to make sure that we're not
overprom thing.
Right?
I mean, so it's really selling the technologyor the program that you have, right, and it
(10:21):
needs to survive.
Right?
I mean, because a deal not done.
It's not as bad as a terminated deal.
Right?
I think that's very important, especially forsmaller companies, right, and we see it right
now when when some clinical trials fail thenthe companies go down immediately completely,
right?
And so rather don't do a deal if that's not theright technology for the company you're talking
to, I instead of trying to force it, and thenit fails.
(10:44):
And then I think also it's very important tohave this mindset of every interaction is
relationship building, right?
So it starts actually with a very first call,the very first meeting, maybe even the via at
JP Morgan or whatever, right?
I mean, that's your very first point ofrelationship building.
And you have to think all your life around thisand that you will see these people again,
(11:05):
right?
I mean, so create good relationships, nevertalk negatively about other companies and so
on.
Right?
You can do this by asking questions, forexample.
Right?
I don't understand why they are doing this,right, but not say this is bad, what they are
doing.
Right?
I mean, and I think these are kind of thecharacteristics would be the people, right,
that manage these.
And by that, create really great relationships.
And then it's very easy, right, I mean.
(11:25):
So then people will approach you, right, Oh, weheard about this technology.
I mean, can we talk?
Right?
I mean, it could be interesting.
You don't have to go out and try to sell itright.
Yeah.
It's so Morgan, and I really want to highlightthe of the right deal.
My partner or James call it the huskies infront of the sled that helped push the sled the
company in the right direction becauseeverybody is aligned word.
Okay.
So just us thinking about, okay.
(11:46):
What should be Flint next indication?
We have a deal.
We need to do what we said we'll do.
So everybody's aligned.
Everybody know what we need to do and pushingforward, and I'm thinking about the both buyer
and Beller deal that you helped sign forMammoth, how important they for the company.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So I think here, it was a combination ofgetting the company into these frame
(12:06):
sets, right?
I mean, as well, I mean, so now, coming out ofacademia, right?
I mean, the technology came out of academia.
And so now you're in this professional settingwhere you need project management and you have
to reporting and all these.
Right?
I mean, I think it's a very good learning,right, but it's, like, dictated kind of by the
other partner who has done this 1000 timesbefore.
(12:27):
Right?
So it's actually that's the benefit that comesto the company.
Right?
I mean, the big pharma benefits from thetechnology and the in the people, but then you
also benefit from this.
How is it done?
The disease expertise, right, which is not easyto build up.
The pharma company already has it.
Right?
So now you can benefit on that.
I think that's where these win wins, right, inthe end, I mean, like we always say, this is
(12:49):
what you have to look at.
Right?
And it's a very early validation of technology.
If these projects work, then there will be morepipeline project but also more partnership.
Right?
And this is what you have to shoot for.
And that's becoming more important.
And then at this time, for sure, any nondilutive funding is the winner.
Right?
I mean, we have to admit it that it's not aseasy anymore to Pete VC funding, public
(13:10):
funding.
And so if you can do a partnership right now,might be willing to give up a little bit more,
not as high up fronts and so on, but in theend, it's a win for you because the company is
surprised.
Right?
And the company can move on and create morevalue.
And that's also not to be forgotten.
Yeah.
This is a critical point, especially duringtime, you know, being able to get some Flint
(13:30):
cash that can help fund your platform.
But, again, this is also very unique toplatform companies because you don't have sell
the future for the present.
You're not, say, parting your one program.
You have a whole platform and you could do manythings.
So this is one reason we invest in platformtechnology where you have both horizontal and
vertical business models.
You can either partner the platform or we havesome companies where, you know, they have deals
(13:52):
around their platform.
Home, even sometimes as a service, and thenthey have the vertical application, the
indication, the drug they try to get to Morgan.
So how do you make the right choices,especially in this time where money is tight,
not to sell the future for the present?
I think that's the art Right?
That's the true art of a platform company,knowing what to sell and for how much.
(14:13):
Everything has a price tag.
You can sell the company.
You can sell the platform.
You can sell part of the platform.
You can sell a therapeutic area.
You can sell an indication.
It's really a huge range that you go from, verylittle to everything.
And what is the right thing to do always hasprice tag against it.
What's the real value for that deal for thecompany?
(14:35):
And There isn't one answer.
It's different for each company.
If one company holds several platforms, likethe example of, 11, from your portfolio
companies.
They have multiple platforms.
So if they Currier out 1, the company is stillsustainable and growing its value If you're a
one trick pony and you create one platform, ifyou sell that, it's like selling the company.
(14:58):
And if you're a one asset, company, like yousaid, then it's all about that.
And that range is per company, per people, perstage company and how well you can get to those
deals and for what value you can get them for.
Yeah.
I want to add that.
I mean, so when you have these multipleindications, Right?
I mean, your platform is widely applicable.
(15:19):
I think you should also look into competition,right?
And people forget that there's new discoveriesevery day, right?
If you think about the in CRISPR, right, geneediting, for example, pre CRISPR, there was
gene editing already, right?
But suddenly the hype came up was CRISPR,right?
And It doesn't even mean that Trista is betterthan previous technologies, but everybody's
talking about it, right?
And we, then we saw M and A suddenly with theCOVID vaccines now getting a huge push Right?
(15:42):
I'm pretty sure tomorrow there will besomething else.
Right?
And so you have to see what I have to balance.
Right?
If I do this on my own, I mean, am I getting toa state where I'm really differentiated, might
there be other approaches that then areconsidered the top approaches Right?
And also what if others move ahead?
Right?
I mean, in the rare disease, do I still have aposition then starting a clinical trial?
(16:03):
There's only 3, 4, in the clinic, right?
At the same time, if I maybe partner with astrong company in that field already, then we
might have a chance, right?
Succeed because they have the wholeacceleration of clinical development, the
knowledge, right, the patient advocacy, maybethere's already the relationships and all And
then even marketing this, right?
I mean, not only in one small country, youknow, going globally, right?
(16:24):
And so on, getting to the full potential.
So I think you have to balance this really whenand what to license, but you also need to keep
something for yourself.
Right?
I mean, if you want to go into this verticalintegration, then you have to keep something
for your self.
But there, you could also consider what areother technologies that are just evolving that
I might be able to combine with this, forexample.
(16:45):
Right?
So the big pharma will usually go for the moreobvious, right?
So let's take gene editing again and delivery,for example, right?
So they will look at proven delivery technologyand combine this, your new editing technology
wise.
Maybe for you, it's the risk to take to go bothinto new delivery and new editing, right, which
you have already the new editing in that case,or you're coming from the other side.
So that's when you can create something maybe,which is really differentiated, right, towards
(17:08):
what is out there.
And that's what you should focus on.
And you can finance that and build on that andvalidate it with the partnerships potential.
That's what I love about BD.
It's a three-dimensional chest
I think maybe to add on what Peter said, one ofthe important points is to really do a lot of
homework.
It's a lot of homework learning the landscapes.
And benefits and disadvantages and gaps intherapeutic areas.
(17:32):
So if you're coming with an Morgan platform,but it's a very good sustainable less toxic
Morgan delivery.
What's your real added value?
What medical gap are you answering here thatothers haven't?
And that's the homework you should sit and dobefore choosing which indications the partner.
And it's exactly like Peter said that if it'san ecological product, And there's a big pharma
(17:56):
you can partner quickly and have a proof ofconcept on your platform, then you could move
forward with others if you did your homeworkBeller.
Great.
So many companies, so many platform companiesare trying to partner with the same Middle East
or pharma companies.
Right?
They're not 1000 of them.
We all know who the top pharma companies are.
So they are just inundated with inbound ofdifferent companies who want to talk and
(18:20):
partner with how do you separate yourself?
How do you separate the signal to noise and howyou get, like, even in front of the right
people?
So what's the best way to develop relationshipwith pharma and get in front of the right Pete.
I think the most important word here is trust.
Right?
Every good interaction and very greatrelationship and business relationship starts
(18:42):
with the highest level of trust.
If you know someone that trusts you, Thatshould be one of your first choices.
So it can be, let's say, if we tier the pharmacompanies in 1, 2, and 3, either cash on hand
or buy a big pharma midsize or small pharma.
If you have a good trusting relationship, youhave to remember that signing a deal is the 1st
(19:04):
day of a long term relationship.
Right?
So that always works.
So trust, you have to know the company.
Pharma BD are pretty brilliant people.
They understand in-depth the company strategy.
They know what's going to happen in thecompany.
5 years from now and probably 10 years fromnow.
They know what they're looking Morgan, and youas an entrepreneur know your company.
(19:25):
You know your technology you should know howyour technology compliments theirs.
You don't know what's happening behind thescenes and their Morgan D teams, but you
definitely know what's your added value and whythis partnership is best for both sides.
So you should come with that know how.
I'm going back to what we said in the beginningthat if you don't have a Cbo yet or a VP Beller
(19:46):
make sure, you know, your board of directorsare very well connected.
And if they're not, get a bunch of advisorsjust pay the best people to get advice on who
to reach and how.
And then you have to work hard.
You have to go to boss and again to Boston andthen the JP and to the bio.
And again, to these meetings, and you have tobe really kind and nice and patient.
(20:09):
And never, never neglect the process.
These are very long processes.
Even if you're frustrated, my good guess isthat the pharma biz dev executive that's
working with you is no less frustrated than youfrom the length of the process.
While you're sitting, he has to pull his r andd team his business team, his transaction team,
(20:30):
and probably a bunch of 10 other teamsinternally before he gets back to you with an
initial answer thing enough to move forward.
So lots of patience, good strong board, pay foradvisors.
If you don't have them, look for them, askpeople around, and, you know, working hard and
taking calculated risks.
Yeah.
Very, very good points.
(20:50):
Right?
But maybe I would add, but maybe you said it,but so I think the relationship building starts
that's very early.
Right?
And we have now wonderful tools.
Right?
I mean, we have LinkedIn and so on.
Right?
I mean, all these kind of things in addition togoing to partnering meetings.
Right?
I mean, and it's not like that stiff anymore.
Like, it used to be, right, like a black suittie and so on.
No.
There's the evening events, right, and andstart connecting when you don't need Pete.
(21:13):
Right, the partnership so that you have thenetwork in place, right, when it's time to go
there.
Right?
I mean, talk about be very honest and spend,right?
I mean, you're not there Pete.
Right?
I mean, tell them, I mean, what you're planningto do, what is still required.
I mean, it's too early, but you can come back,right?
I mean, once the data is there and so on, sothat you're already known in the field, right,
and the company is known in the field.
And that can be done in various ways.
(21:34):
There's also other partnering events, right, Imean, there's research building openings and so
on.
I'm always surprised, like, I don't see manycompanies there, right, and you go there.
And it other people say it's a waste time, youknow, and you're just going for Beller,
whatever.
No.
But it's a relationship building.
Right?
It's networking already at that Beller.
Right?
And you meet again, and it's And then also whatwe've seen more and more people are moving
around from one company to another, right?
(21:56):
So, I mean, I think being extremely respectfull is very important as well.
Right?
If there's a negative decision on yourtechnology, maybe that was, like, at the
highest levels of the company strategicdecision to not do it or whatever.
Right?
Or there were other relationships that madethis work.
But that person that you were talking to ormore will be tomorrow at a different company,
right?
And so then, you know, if you destroy therelationship, right, I mean, that's not good.
(22:20):
But if you have this relationship, right, Imean, I think that's very important.
I had one example of still at Bayer, we werenegotiating with another large pharma company.
And we even went to this, like, no go point inbetween, right, where we separated during the
negotiation Nothing did go the right way.
They came back.
We finished.
It was an option agreement.
We signed the option agreement after manymonths of negotiation.
(22:42):
The option failed, right, but I did not Pete.
But still afterwards, I met those Pete, right,and we had beers at one of the bios and so on.
Right?
And so then you know, I mean, whenever you meetthem again, they will talk to you again, right?
Doesn't matter.
I mean, that this failed, right?
It wasn't your input, right?
I mean, that made this fail.
It was all because you were just representingthe values and the requirements of the company.
(23:02):
Right?
And so don't take it personal, right, and just,yeah, think about this.
I mean, we're trying to do the best, right, onboth sides.
And so It doesn't work out all the time.
So
It's really good advice.
Yeah.
And I think soft skills are so so important.
I think an advice to founders.
You wanna find the right BD First step, do youlike him?
The right BD, people you would like to go todrink with that you like?
(23:25):
I like both of the people here very much andthe you know, that's very important.
Like, you know, people think it's all about thebrain and being smart and being calculated and
knowing the deal terms, Much of it is, youknow, you want to do business with those
people.
So but he talked about data.
So what kind of evidence or traction doplatform companies need to show before they go
to pharma?
Yeah.
That depends on the platform.
(23:45):
Right?
I mean, so in the Pete editing space, and it'sdeveloping.
Right?
I mean, so when technology is new, right, youdon't need that much, and you maybe try, I
mean, identify the few companies that arewilling to go in early, right, but some does
more conservative companies.
And you learn that also over time.
Right?
I mean, I know which company I don't have to govery early I know where I can try it at least.
Right?
But I think if it's developing further, I thinkto convince also upper management very often in
(24:11):
vivo data is just to try it.
Right?
So it means a mouse model should be done.
That's what people want to see.
Right?
And I've seen it in the past even for ex vivoediting companies want to see in vivo editing
because they want to see that the system worksin a safe ride.
I mean, even if you think, like, from a scienceperspective, there's no real link necessarily,
right, but they feel more confident, right, andthat's what you have to provide confidence in
(24:34):
making the deal.
Right?
It's also, I mean, if you look at the revenuesof a large pharma company.
Right?
I mean, a a 20, 30,000,000 up front seems to besuper small.
Right?
But it's still a lot of money, and thiscompetes after all Flint internal funding,
right?
So 20,000,000 not invested at a company likePfizer for research also means quite a few FTEs
that are not hired, right, Morgan so we shouldnot forget this, right?
(24:57):
I mean, they are making a commitment, and theywant to be very confident in that this is the
right technology.
And that's why I think animal models are veryoften now asked for.
And as the technology evolves, you see thismore and more.
Right?
I mean, more on validation required
Yeah.
It seems like it takes a lot of time to createthose relationship and gather this knowledge.
Definitely Pete like you that can advisecompanies are just It's worth every penny.
(25:20):
So let's talk about another thing.
So it's one thing to have a meeting, and it'shaving me, it's a totally another thing to
close a deal.
So how long do you think the whole processshould take.
And do you have any advice to help get a dealover the finish line?
I think it should take a week.
Oh, that's it's a good question, right?
I mean, they shouldn't forget.
Right?
I mean, so even the larger companies, right, Imean, they include external lawyers, for
(25:45):
example, right, in negotiations.
But for the small company, this is moreexpensive.
Right?
I mean, the end, I mean, it's more part of thebudget.
Right?
And so if you drag this all along, I mean, itgets more and more expensive, right, and it's
also not knowing it and the BD person, right?
I mean, it's all I mean, pay, right?
I mean, if you pay half a year or a year,that's the difference.
Right?
I've seen, and many of my colleagues andfriends said the same thing during the
(26:05):
pandemic, we definitely saw expansion you'remaking, right?
I mean, it took much longer than usual, right?
I mean, because of no face to face, if you asby, as you can imagine, it was across the
Atlantic, right?
I mean, in the country and the Atlantic.
So 9 hour time difference, right?
You don't have a 5 hour meeting in the morning,right?
I mean, you had to limit it to 1:2 hours andthen do it again and again, right?
I mean, and so that James it much more, longer,but I think generally to 6 months is a good
(26:31):
guideline that you should shoot for, but thenit always depends also on the of the deal,
right?
For sure.
I mean, what is involved?
And many people only see the deal making forstarting the collaboration, but you also need
to think about what if things go wrong, right?
And then that's when it can get verycomplicated as platform companies, right?
I mean, so if the other farmer company bringsin other technology, combining with your
(26:53):
platform technology.
What if the project is terminated, right?
Do you get access to the full project, or doyou just get back your IP, right, which doesn't
help you because now it's not I mean, youcannot bring it to the clinic without the other
technology, right?
So all these things, right?
I mean, when it can get very complicated, it'sreally dependent on the case.
So it used to be much easier for sure for justan asset deal, right, a small molecule that you
(27:15):
license after phase 1.
I mean, could be done much faster.
Right?
And if they were at the end of the year, somecompanies did them, like, super fast, like 6
weeks, 8 weeks.
Right?
I mean, but I don't think that's feasible forplatform deals.
I mean, it's way more complicated than and thenyou mentioned the vertex methods example.
Right?
I mean, vertex is in the field with otherpartners, right, also complicating the things
(27:36):
more, right, and if you're the exclusivepartner of a farmer company, right, in the
fields that you're working in.
So there's all these kind of things that makeless predictable, but I would say 3 to 6 months
would be now after the pandemic with face toface meetings possible would be a good goal.
I think it takes us back maybe to what wediscussed about what you're curving out of the
company.
(27:56):
Right?
If you're curving out a product, the platform,the complexity of the deal, So a very short
deal could be an M and A.
If you're, a very high valued company andsomeone is trying to competitively buy you, it
can take weeks.
But if it's a very complicated deal where thepharma company is risking anything from their
knowhow, it can be a very long complicateddeal.
(28:16):
And it take even up to 9 month 1 year.
And maybe in the mindset of the entrepreneurs,we should separate because for us, maybe it's
obvious, Peter, but It's not when you start thediscussion 3
to 6 months.
The discussions can take a year until
you find the right turns and find the right wayto work together and what's in it for each one.
(28:43):
And you just like you said, you go to the JPand you have the beer and you have you know,
the scientific discussion.
So that can take even up to a year.
And then the deal itself is 3 to 6 months.
So maybe, just to manage the expectations ofpeople who are hearing.
It's not like today, we met and in March, we'llhave a deal.
Today, we met and in March 2024, We might havea deal.
(29:07):
And you need a very, very long, you know,ability to breathe and be persistent and
persuasive and kind and diligent and patient tomake sure that this process is followed
throughout that time.
And it will go up, and it will go down.
So do you see any red flags or mistakes youfeel founders often make when they think about
(29:29):
this dev other than thinking that it will onlytake 3 months I
think one of the the mistakes that I've seeneverywhere, right, I mean, and it's always
tempting, but only looking at the numbers of adeal, right, and thinking what is a good deal,
what is a bad deal, right, It's not.
Right?
I mean, we discussed this earlier.
There's value making.
Right?
I mean, the contribution from both companies,the benefits for both companies, is it,
(29:51):
complimentary you know, what they bringtogether to the table and so on.
I think that can be more important than theinitial early value of a deal.
Right?
So that's one.
And I think the second one is, I think, I yousaid, like, it's a team job.
Right?
I mean, and so it it is super important to alsoget involved, right, as the founders.
So I think they sometimes think now we havehired a Cbo, a business development person.
(30:14):
Now I can lay back that person will do the joband get us a deal done Right?
No.
You are part of this, right, as the founder,and you are the face of the company.
And you also need to make these connections,right, and bring them in.
But then there's delegation of some of theparts that will be done by the BD person.
Right?
But it's still it's one team that workstogether on this.
And it's responsible if the deal is not gettingdone.
(30:35):
Right?
It's not the BD person only, right?
If there's a mistake on, yes, right?
I mean, you can see that true.
But otherwise, you should also ask yourself asthe founder.
I mean, why didn't we get the deal done?
Right?
I mean, was it maybe, you know, could I havedone Morgan, right, and so on?
I see very often this, like, separated bad Peteor whatever.
Right?
I mean, so that's not the case, and peopleshould be very careful about that.
(30:56):
I think that was, so accurate, Peter.
I think other mistakes maybe that are worthmentioning are making unrealistic promises.
So be really realistic when you share theinformation with a pharma company.
If something's still in development, then justsay so.
Maybe it's a good deal for co development forthem.
It's just worth being honest.
It's a really long term relationship.
(31:17):
And then maybe what we talked about that it'sreally important to know the landscape and
competition well before approaching so comingand sort of learning together with them just
what work.
And the other thing is that, well, you thinkthat you and the pharma company are the only
partnership that's happening.
You know, Marie, like, we have a 1000, youknow, 2000 decks a year.
(31:38):
So do they, at least if not twice as much, Sojust make sure that your process is on track
and prioritize.
And I think, you know, don't neglect that.
And on the other hand, don't neglect your workand your progress of the company.
Because if you meet every few weeks or everyfew months, it's really cool to have, you know,
some progress.
You can share Morgan email.
(31:58):
You can shoot saying we have great news.
We've been funded by a non dilutive fundingopportunity, and it's another validation for
them about your platform.
Morgan and then another mistake that I'm seeingis the negotiation and the deal structure.
There is never one size fits all.
So even if you saw that that company did 10asset deals of $5,000,000 Flint, $20,000,000
(32:23):
milestones, and 500, you know, half a$1,000,000,000 or whatever something else.
Many times those numbers are just nonrealistic.
Don't look at the numbers that are on thepaper.
Look at what the deal is worth for you and whatthe real value of the deal is.
Do your own homework, with your own numbers,learn from you, what you did, and then come to
the table.
(32:43):
You have your red lines as fine to back even asa small company from the deal and say that it's
not a good deal for you, but don't look atother deals and say this is what we have to do.
Many of the numbers that are published arejust, fake news.
Peter is smiling.
He's probably seen a press release or 2.
Yeah.
Mean, we can't say, right?
I mean, with the same day, we published thebuyer Mammoth's deal.
(33:06):
There was also the deal beam and Pfizer, right?
And for sure, the upfront was higher, but itwas also a different stage of technology,
right, and people didn't understand.
They said, like, oh, Pete editing company wasbig pharma.
Why did they get more money?
Right?
So I had to ask these questions.
I had to answer the questions Flint interviews.
Right?
But then people understand that it's, like,it's trivial.
Right?
I mean, it's and the benefit for us, I mean,was huge, right, for the deal as well.
(33:28):
Yeah.
Faken news.
Very sad.
So I'm going to actually do something fun forme and maybe save me some time in one of my
next board meetings.
So Let's Pete your brain.
Some fun use case.
Let's say hypothetically, I have a company thatcreate a novel lipid number article that can
target the logs.
Let's just say what the Jess that companyshould do, should they wait to partner the
(33:50):
platform with many different, pharma companiesthat maybe have more experience in the specific
indications or control their own future andsay, oh, we discovered something nobody else
can do.
Maybe we'll just find a drug without deliverything, without delivery technology, and develop
it ourselves hypothetically.
So without knowing all the details, It dependsif they have one asset targeting the lung or
(34:13):
multiple assets targeting the lung.
And if it's targeting the lung, which cells isit targeting in the lung?
And if it's targeting cells in the lung, didthey go through non human primate data, or have
they not?
And if they have, how toxic is it?
And it's such a complicated branching questionsand and goes to the endless, you know, micro
(34:33):
informations that you need in order to decidewhat indication to go.
But I think if 5 years ago, everyone would havesaid CF, today, it would be CF, right, because
it's a highly competitive space, many newtechnologies.
And on the other hand, if you have really goodtargeting, can you, you know, choose one of the
lung indications Which payload will you take?
(34:56):
So, again, we're in the six dimensions oftoxicity, CMC indications, cell targeting, So
if I had a few, I would outlicense 1 and keepsome to myself or, you know, split them between
myself and the company, but that'shypothetically
Yeah.
I mean, it's a good question.
Peter should get the kidney now.
(35:19):
Kidney is a more to be honest.
No.
But it's about the payload.
Right?
I mean, so you need to get access to payload,right, unless you have it, and it's and it
needs to be differentiated.
Right, as well.
I mean, only delivery will enable it, right?
I mean, delivery is an enabler, right, wherethe payload is usually the differentiator
Right?
I mean, unless you can really differentiateregarding toxicity and so on, right?
(35:40):
I mean, but I think that's the big question.
Right?
So and I think it could be one of theseexamples, as I mentioned earlier, for
partnering with another smaller company, right,that has payload potentially, right, and then
move together towards one indication and make areally cool proof of concept, right?
Or, I mean, I think if it's really early, thendefinitely a partnership with Farmer or a
(36:01):
larger biotech would help to validate thetechnology.
Right?
And when you said discovery, right, I mean, Iguess, I mean, I I know how they discovered,
right, it's also proving this process ofdiscovering, right?
And I think that's very valuable then as well.
And for that, you could indeed give up anindication where you say if it's a very
attractive one, but there's also a lot ofcompetition.
Right?
So partnering might be the right way to do inthat space, right?
(36:23):
But there's more indications than CF, right, inthe lung NFE as I rightfully said.
I mean, there's different cell types, right?
And if you can differentiate between the celltypes, then you might enable many more
indications, right, that are also valuableafter all.
We don't think of yet, right, because nobodycan deliver yet to them, right?
So And that's why you want to have access toPeter Nielle.
(36:44):
I wish I could just go one by one with all mycompanies and get some free advice because
every company is very different with differentneeds.
I want to emphasize maybe one thing that I seethat some platform companies can do.
So we have several companies in our portfoliothat can actually, I won't say sell, but kinda
(37:04):
commercialize the platform as a service And itused to be Flint about.
It's like a CRO, and nobody wants to be a CRO,but it's a way to make money and generate data
and potentially being able to fund your ownpipeline development.
Have you seen those kind of companies?
And what's your thought around that?
Yeah.
I've seen it.
Right?
I mean, so there are some new technologies inmanufacturing, for example, and where this kind
(37:28):
of applies.
Right?
I mean, it could be a CDMO or it could beproviding the service the IP, the know how,
right, so that a larger company can implementthis manufacturing process.
It's way more difficult because, I mean, that'smaybe specific to manufacturing, but to come in
so early because the regulatory password willdepend on all these technologies, right?
So you cannot go and get your IND and then say,no, we changed the whole manufacturing process.
(37:50):
And go back, right?
I mean, that will move you back by 2 years orwhatever.
And so you have to be very early at the timewhen nobody wants to admit they will not be
able to manufacture Right?
So that's always the biggest challenge.
Right?
I mean, we have to convince the companies thatthere's a need for new technology, right, and
which is not very easy for our scientists in alarge company to admit, right, that they need
(38:12):
us very early.
So you need a very good use case and maybe aninternal program that has been moved forward
could be done in partnership, right, I mean,but it needs to be something where this was
applied to and this technology or service.
Right?
And then you have a very nice kind of, like,reference case.
Right?
I mean, like, you can create a white paper,whatever.
Right?
I mean, that you can then help peopleunderstand that this is actually something that
(38:36):
they would benefit from taking your services.
But I think it's very difficult sometimes toconvince companies here because it's always
this dilemma.
I mean, no scientist wants to admit.
We can't do this.
Right?
And that's why we need somebody else for this.
I think it's also a chicken and egg, randomly,because if the company has funding to move
their pipeline forward, then they should dothat.
(38:57):
They should move forward and create the realvalue for their investors and shareholders and
for the company and for the patients.
And if they don't, then they have they mightfind themselves in a position that they're
looping in 2 circles.
1 is creating a financial opportunity, selling,you know, CRO services or a certain, asset that
they know how to produce.
(39:18):
And then trying to move their pipeline forwardin parallel.
It's really hard and really stretches the seaof the company that works, 3 jobs as is, but,
you know, as a last resort, I think it canwork.
Let's say the other side of it is that theseplatform companies We're built on excellent
platforms, usually.
(39:38):
Right?
And once you go to the pipeline, you neglectthe platform Pete James.
So you invest in the pipeline because that'swhat creates the value to your company and you
neglect the platform.
And if it's a computational platform, it cancause, you know, both frustration to the
computational team that brought this from up.
And the other side of that is that otherplatforms will come to the table and be
(39:59):
stronger if you haven't developed yours inparallel.
So doing these collaborations, a pseudo CRO canalso benefit the level of your platforms
keeping that.
So there are benefits to it, but from a valueperspective, the value will come from your
pipeline.
Yeah.
And, oh, my, I think it's also coming back toone of your earlier questions regarding Cbo
(40:19):
business development.
I think it's a little bit of a differentbusiness development person that you would have
in those companies.
Right?
I mean, maybe an example is Synagogue, right?
I mean, those are definitely different Pete.
Right?
I mean, from a skill set that you need, then aCbo who's more strategic to give focus Right?
I mean, pipeline building, partnershipbuilding.
And so on alliance management, right, it'sdifferent.
Right?
This is more like service support versus alignsmanagement, right, in a asset partnership and
(40:42):
so on.
So if you make that additional shift, right, Imean, you have to also build differently,
potentially.
Shouldn't forget that.
So both of you have been very active in thisspace either at companies or investing in
companies.
Are there any new avenues for biz dev thatfounders often overlooked or more tricks of the
trade to make the process faster.
So I think what I see more coming, right, andbecause course, there are so many competing
(41:05):
platform companies now, right, and more, Imean, in the Pete editing phase space
specifically, right?
I mean, you see a lot of companies coming Ithink we should think more about partnering
this competition in the end.
Right?
The small companies can do that.
Right?
I mean, there's no laws again to smallcompanies working together, right, and
dominating a field.
I mean, so I think that's what we will see inthe future to get faster, right?
(41:26):
I mean, to maybe even combining, I mean, wetalked editing and delivery.
Right?
I mean, I could foresee companies thatpreviously had this idea, or we want to be both
these hybrid model, vertical, and horizontalintegration, right, and now you work together,
right?
I mean, and try to move specific projects,maybe an area just, right?
I mean, it doesn't have to be all of thecompany, right, just an area forward.
(41:47):
I think that could go much faster if you'reboth at a very early stage.
You can be more risk taking, right, on bothsides than the big pharma company, right, that
they think about the commercialization andeverything.
Right?
I mean, so I think that's an opportunity thatwe will see more often.
Even the joint venture, right, I mean, betweenBay and Christmas there, particularly,
something new in the space, right, and It tooknot as long as doing a deal, actually,
(42:08):
honestly, to set that up.
And so I think that those are ways.
I mean, how you could do it.
Otherwise, faster.
I mean, if you're a true platform company andyou have done a deal already or 2, hopefully,
you can apply some of the learnings and alsoeven, you know, make it more like a template
deal.
Right?
If it's always the same, the conditions are theJames, the partners are similar in nature, then
(42:28):
hopefully you can speed up the process.
Right?
But otherwise, I mean, like people.
Right?
Everybody is different and that it's verydifferent.
Every marriage is different.
Right?
I mean, every deal is different.
I mean, it takes time, unfortunately.
I completely agree with you, Peter.
I think the you know, the M and A of Guide wasan excellent example, but it doesn't have to be
an M and A.
It really can be a interesting creative deal.
(42:50):
Between early stage companies.
And we saw it a lot when Alnylam and Modernastarted, like, clusters of deals where they
have a great platform that they can, outlicensepart of it and then get some from others.
I think there's a lot more potential there.
I agree with you that payload and deliverycompanies will be getting married, a lot in the
(43:10):
next 2 years.
I think other overlooked avenues are alsobetween the digital companies and the platform
companies.
So you can really push forward many of theplatform companies with tools that are out
there from smaller companies And I think we'llbe seeing those as well.
Again, for these, the most important part willbe networking, right, because you need to have
(43:31):
a good relationship with these Pete.
And only then you can even start a discussionthis.
Right?
I mean, you will not go out to your fiercecompetition and say, hey.
Can we do a partnership?
Right?
I mean, you do this because you know thepeople, right, behind and that's how you or the
investors, right, I mean, can also bringtogether companies.
I I mean, very important.
Yeah.
Great.
So before we end, is there anything I missed?
(43:51):
Anything you want to say that I we didn't havea chance to talk about.
Just should say is business development isgreat.
Right?
It's great.
It's very important right now.
Right?
I mean, so there's definitely more need I mean,what I see when I get approached.
Right?
I mean, there's more need right now.
I think because of this funding situation.
Right?
So the big question is, will it safe like thatforever.
Right?
I mean, or if the situation with VC fundinggets better, I mean, will companies move back
(44:15):
more towards internal development?
Right?
It's an open question.
I don't know anybody has an opinion or thoughton that.
I completely agree that business development isthe funniest part in the company It's, the
strategic creative, you know, it has so manyelements that are unique.
And in this era where funding is a realchallenge to companies, you can really shine
(44:37):
and move the company to wonderful places withsmart, patient, professional business
development.
And the second point that we talked about isdon't do it alone.
You don't have to invent business development.
It's, you know, it's an existing art.
It's a prior art.
And you can get lots of help from excellentexecutives that are already there.
(44:58):
And the third thing is that We really try tohelp our platform companies in any way we can.
We build a whole team that that's what they do.
Connect them to strategic connect them to otherVCs.
And that's actually one of the reasons I joinedJames, but if you are surrounded by a strong
VC, just get their help.
You're not alone, and don't try to deal withthis issue alone.
(45:21):
I think Umree, you and your team are runningaround Boston as well with your companies.
Right?
Yeah.
So, again, thank you so much.
I have only one question left is how do I getmore people like you?
Because all my companies need a great CDO andbusiness development people and, how to find
the worth their weight, you know, literally ingold and dollars So it's great to know both of
(45:44):
you.
Thank you for helping our companies, and thankyou so much for spending the time with us
today.
Thank you.
Thank you, Omri.
Business
development is the fun start in the company.
It's, the strategic creative, you know, it hasso many elements that are unique.
And in this era where funding is a realchallenge to companies, you can really shine
and move the company to wonderful places withsmart, patient, professional business
(00:28):
development.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the NFXpodcast.
And today, we're going to talk about businessdevelopment in bio, especially bio platform.
So there are 2 parts to building a bioplatform.
You have to focus on the science, then you haveto focus on the business side, when to partner,
(00:49):
when to develop your own product, how to evenpick a Cbo.
It's a lot to handle.
That's why we're brought on guests today.
Peter Neil, Beller, Gubham, Cohen.
The best way to start is maybe a quickintroduction.
I know both of you for many years, but EIL,maybe you can start.
Like, how do you get to this beautiful, youknow, space of Batek?
So, again, thank you, Marie, for having me.
(01:10):
And I think this is a really an awesome topicand so important for what's happening in the
industry now.
Right?
So my name is, yeah, El Greenbaum Morgan.
As you said, I'm a venture partner at AimmuneFund, where it's the largest fund.
And as managing, just over $1,300,000,000.
I joined just a few weeks ago, the fund, butbefore that, I was in business development for
(01:32):
many years.
I was the general manager in my last role ofMedison Ventures, so leading a lot of
licensing, distribution, and investments,mainly in platform companies.
By training.
I'm a DMD Pete and a postdoc in genetics and,really happy to be here with you and Peter.
Yeah.
Thank you.
This is Peter.
So thank you so much I mean, I'm very nice tobe here with you.
(01:52):
So my background is slightly different.
I'm not adventure, but I'm starting a newcompany right now.
So it will be a platform company in the geneediting space.
New technology developed at another company.
So it's officially a spinout, and hopefullythat you will hear more about this next year.
And previously, I was chief business Morganhead of therapeutic strategy at Mammoth
Biosciences, Jennifer Dautner, Pete editingcompany, so also in a very similar sense,
(02:16):
having platform and then expanding intobuilding a pipeline, but also partnering a lot.
And before that, I had co started Casibia,which was the joint venture between Bayer and
Christmas therapeutics focused on Cas9, butagain, having access to the platform and now
translating this into assets and potentiallypartnering as well in the future.
And I came out of Bayer, so that's why I wasinvolved in starting the company.
(02:39):
And there, I had been in many roles.
I'm, chemist by training, so started medicinechemistry lab, but then moved on towards other
functions, business development and licensingfor a very long time.
But I also thought it's very important forbusiness development to understand whole
process of running a drug from not onlydiscovery through, I mean, in the end, treating
patients, right, so on the market.
And that why I decided to go into otherfunctions as Beller.
(03:01):
So spend 2 years in operations, run theportfolio meetings for the company, but got a
lot of insights into pharmacology as Beller,and then also moved on 2 a half years into
commercial.
So really on the strategic marketing Flint, howto build pipeline, but then also launching a
product, market research, and then even lookingat how much money is it making.
Right?
I mean, that's also important after allcompanies to survive.
(03:22):
And so I think very important to have this viewon both sides have worked in big pharma, but
also in small companies.
And so it's very interesting.
Right?
I mean, you know how both sides work, and it'schanging over time, but still, I mean, you have
some insights, right, on which can be veryhelpful.
So a pleasure to be here, and I'm lookingforward to the discussion here.
Great.
So, look, at NFX, the bio, we like to invest inbioplatform.
(03:46):
We actually only invest in platform companies.
We will not invest in 1 small molecule Morganeducation.
We like white platforms.
Where, you know, you can create many differentproducts.
And that also opened the door for manydifferent creative ways to collaborate and do
business development.
The question is how early should you bring abusiness development person on board?
Yeah.
What do you think?
(04:06):
I think you should bring a great businessdevelopment to Cbo or a Pete BD person when
you're ready to actively pursue partnerships.
So Just when you start planning thesepartnerships and you're really ready for that,
that's the time.
Partnerships, licensing deals, or other biz devopportunities, and this person eventually will
(04:27):
be responsible for identifying these, deals forevaluating the potential business
opportunities.
And then they should also be responsible fornegotiating and executing in the early stage.
It's it's an all around player that does all ofthat.
And then that person needs to also manage theserelationships with external partners and engage
(04:48):
internally.
So it really depends if you have a reallystrong CEO, then a talented VP Beller at an
early stage company can support in the shadows.
I think, like, what you try to do in NFX ifyou're an early stage platform company, you
really need a strong VC support that becauselet's say if you're not with Pete 20 years of
(05:09):
connections and you're starting the businessdevelopment, it takes time to build these
trusting relationships.
And that time can be sort of shadowed orbridged by a strong VC, like what we have, the
alpha team and a moon.
Yeah.
I think it's a very good point actually.
So I think you should ask yourself thequestion.
Right?
I mean, what expertise do you need in additionto what the leadership team already has, right?
(05:32):
I mean, there's definitely a whole mix people,right, that come into a new company.
So if you have, like, less experience, cofounders, right, in the leadership team, you
will need this network for example to broughtin, right?
I mean, definitely, I mean, because you don'thave it yet, right?
It's natural.
I mean, you haven't been in the space.
Same for negotiations and so on.
Right?
If you've never done it, I mean, you needsomebody who has done it before.
Right?
Like, in my case, when I start a company, Imight not need a Cbo as early as, you know, a
(05:56):
company where it's a scientist starting companyonly.
Right?
I mean, so I can cover a lot here, and it'smore like a supportive function, right?
So that may be more asked for a VP of businessdevelopment.
Instead of a Cbo.
On the other hand, I think it also depends onhow many deals you want to do, right, and then
what's in addition in it for this position.
Right?
I mean, think about it when you would write thejob description Right?
(06:16):
I mean, what you ask this person to do, right?
Because now with, like, the title inflation, wevery often mix up Cbo with head of BD.
Right?
I mean, so business development is really, forme, it's more the licensing part.
Right?
The Cbo is in addition also corporate strategyright, a licensing strategy and maybe even
pipeline strategy and so on, right, which canbe different from company to company.
(06:37):
It could be that the COO Omri CFO, whoever,right?
I mean, others cover this, but that's for me areal Cbo writer, which is really this
overarching role if you need that earlier,right, I mean, then you might hire a Cbo.
If you really just need to do some deals andit's like a platform Beller deal is very
similar.
You might be better with just a VP of BD,right, because you also need to keep your
(06:59):
people happy, right, in the future.
And if it's not enough to do, if the notfilling and you're not able to bring in your
expertise, then you're not happy.
Right?
And that's also not good.
That's a great point.
So, you know, a lot of CEOs ask me how to findhow do I know that have the right, BT guy or CB
or how to identify the difference between thegood and the great one.
And my usual, answer, good this developmentwill fill the funnel.
(07:20):
And get the meeting, a great business personwill Pete to be able to close the deal.
So how do you evaluate a BD people, being oneof them?
I think it's all the mindset Exactly.
Like you said, it's all the mindset of thatperson.
So a really successful let's call it CBO, but Icompletely agree with Peter that it could be
either or.
Has to be a really good team player, a reallygood team player that knows how to work with
(07:46):
the business people and the science people andthe operational people and sort of know how to
integrate all these functions into a dealbecause, great deal is a deal where both
companies get the most benefit from it.
Right?
Both you and the company you've partnered with.
So it's really a team sports.
And it's funny that I think, Peter, you'llagree.
(08:08):
Many of the people we meet in the businessdevelopment industry used to be in the sports
in competitive sports.
So, they have to have really good strategicthinking.
Even if they're a CDO or business development,they have to have perfect communication skills.
They're always facing out, but always facingin.
They have to work with internal stakeholderswith external stakeholders.
(08:32):
They work with lawyers.
They work with science people.
So they have to be at least bilingual,business, and science, but also really strong
people skills.
And maybe the last thing that's very hard toevaluate when you're looking for a person but
is super important is negotiation skills, butbecause that's the difference from good to
great, a person that wants to get the deal doneand understand that the most important thing is
(08:55):
you want a win win situation for the deal.
So something really important is greatnegotiation skills and agility.
And if he's a Cbo and he's a real part of theleadership team, then he should be a true
leader.
VP Bizdev is one position and a Cbo is a partof a leadership team and should set a
(09:16):
leadership example.
As a person as well.
Yeah.
I mean, very well.
So I think the value of the deals, right, Imean, that's the very important part.
Right?
I mean, so it's not only the financial terms.
Right?
I mean, sometimes you get these deal sheets,right, and people break about, like, the
$5,000,000,000 Beller, whatever, right, them,we all know these are bio bucks, right, which
might never come into fruition.
(09:36):
But it's more about kind of strategy behind adeal.
Right?
I mean, so when were they done, right, how werethey done, where they help for the company.
Right?
I mean, or both companies, as you said, areactually Morgan.
Right?
I mean, so did you choose the right partner asI mean, all these things, right, come together,
which makes a great business developmentperson, right, instead of just getting a deal
done.
I mean, as this is saying, like, I mean, manypeople can sell the pope a double bet, right,
(09:58):
but that's not the good, right?
I mean, because there's need it.
Right?
I mean, it's also about what comes out of this,right?
I mean, so you need the whole thing comestogether.
The many components of this development wise.
And I think trust is also one very importantthing, right?
For a business development person going out, Imean, I want to make sure that we're not
overprom thing.
Right?
I mean, so it's really selling the technologyor the program that you have, right, and it
(10:21):
needs to survive.
Right?
I mean, because a deal not done.
It's not as bad as a terminated deal.
Right?
I think that's very important, especially forsmaller companies, right, and we see it right
now when when some clinical trials fail thenthe companies go down immediately completely,
right?
And so rather don't do a deal if that's not theright technology for the company you're talking
to, I instead of trying to force it, and thenit fails.
(10:44):
And then I think also it's very important tohave this mindset of every interaction is
relationship building, right?
So it starts actually with a very first call,the very first meeting, maybe even the via at
JP Morgan or whatever, right?
I mean, that's your very first point ofrelationship building.
And you have to think all your life around thisand that you will see these people again,
(11:05):
right?
I mean, so create good relationships, nevertalk negatively about other companies and so
on.
Right?
You can do this by asking questions, forexample.
Right?
I don't understand why they are doing this,right, but not say this is bad, what they are
doing.
Right?
I mean, and I think these are kind of thecharacteristics would be the people, right,
that manage these.
And by that, create really great relationships.
And then it's very easy, right, I mean.
(11:25):
So then people will approach you, right, Oh, weheard about this technology.
I mean, can we talk?
Right?
I mean, it could be interesting.
You don't have to go out and try to sell itright.
Yeah.
It's so Morgan, and I really want to highlightthe of the right deal.
My partner or James call it the huskies infront of the sled that helped push the sled the
company in the right direction becauseeverybody is aligned word.
Okay.
So just us thinking about, okay.
(11:46):
What should be Flint next indication?
We have a deal.
We need to do what we said we'll do.
So everybody's aligned.
Everybody know what we need to do and pushingforward, and I'm thinking about the both buyer
and Beller deal that you helped sign forMammoth, how important they for the company.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So I think here, it was a combination ofgetting the company into these frame
(12:06):
sets, right?
I mean, as well, I mean, so now, coming out ofacademia, right?
I mean, the technology came out of academia.
And so now you're in this professional settingwhere you need project management and you have
to reporting and all these.
Right?
I mean, I think it's a very good learning,right, but it's, like, dictated kind of by the
other partner who has done this 1000 timesbefore.
(12:27):
Right?
So it's actually that's the benefit that comesto the company.
Right?
I mean, the big pharma benefits from thetechnology and the in the people, but then you
also benefit from this.
How is it done?
The disease expertise, right, which is not easyto build up.
The pharma company already has it.
Right?
So now you can benefit on that.
I think that's where these win wins, right, inthe end, I mean, like we always say, this is
(12:49):
what you have to look at.
Right?
And it's a very early validation of technology.
If these projects work, then there will be morepipeline project but also more partnership.
Right?
And this is what you have to shoot for.
And that's becoming more important.
And then at this time, for sure, any nondilutive funding is the winner.
Right?
I mean, we have to admit it that it's not aseasy anymore to Pete VC funding, public
(13:10):
funding.
And so if you can do a partnership right now,might be willing to give up a little bit more,
not as high up fronts and so on, but in theend, it's a win for you because the company is
surprised.
Right?
And the company can move on and create morevalue.
And that's also not to be forgotten.
Yeah.
This is a critical point, especially duringtime, you know, being able to get some Flint
(13:30):
cash that can help fund your platform.
But, again, this is also very unique toplatform companies because you don't have sell
the future for the present.
You're not, say, parting your one program.
You have a whole platform and you could do manythings.
So this is one reason we invest in platformtechnology where you have both horizontal and
vertical business models.
You can either partner the platform or we havesome companies where, you know, they have deals
(13:52):
around their platform.
Home, even sometimes as a service, and thenthey have the vertical application, the
indication, the drug they try to get to Morgan.
So how do you make the right choices,especially in this time where money is tight,
not to sell the future for the present?
I think that's the art Right?
That's the true art of a platform company,knowing what to sell and for how much.
(14:13):
Everything has a price tag.
You can sell the company.
You can sell the platform.
You can sell part of the platform.
You can sell a therapeutic area.
You can sell an indication.
It's really a huge range that you go from, verylittle to everything.
And what is the right thing to do always hasprice tag against it.
What's the real value for that deal for thecompany?
(14:35):
And There isn't one answer.
It's different for each company.
If one company holds several platforms, likethe example of, 11, from your portfolio
companies.
They have multiple platforms.
So if they Currier out 1, the company is stillsustainable and growing its value If you're a
one trick pony and you create one platform, ifyou sell that, it's like selling the company.
(14:58):
And if you're a one asset, company, like yousaid, then it's all about that.
And that range is per company, per people, perstage company and how well you can get to those
deals and for what value you can get them for.
Yeah.
I want to add that.
I mean, so when you have these multipleindications, Right?
I mean, your platform is widely applicable.
(15:19):
I think you should also look into competition,right?
And people forget that there's new discoveriesevery day, right?
If you think about the in CRISPR, right, geneediting, for example, pre CRISPR, there was
gene editing already, right?
But suddenly the hype came up was CRISPR,right?
And It doesn't even mean that Trista is betterthan previous technologies, but everybody's
talking about it, right?
And we, then we saw M and A suddenly with theCOVID vaccines now getting a huge push Right?
(15:42):
I'm pretty sure tomorrow there will besomething else.
Right?
And so you have to see what I have to balance.
Right?
If I do this on my own, I mean, am I getting toa state where I'm really differentiated, might
there be other approaches that then areconsidered the top approaches Right?
And also what if others move ahead?
Right?
I mean, in the rare disease, do I still have aposition then starting a clinical trial?
(16:03):
There's only 3, 4, in the clinic, right?
At the same time, if I maybe partner with astrong company in that field already, then we
might have a chance, right?
Succeed because they have the wholeacceleration of clinical development, the
knowledge, right, the patient advocacy, maybethere's already the relationships and all And
then even marketing this, right?
I mean, not only in one small country, youknow, going globally, right?
(16:24):
And so on, getting to the full potential.
So I think you have to balance this really whenand what to license, but you also need to keep
something for yourself.
Right?
I mean, if you want to go into this verticalintegration, then you have to keep something
for your self.
But there, you could also consider what areother technologies that are just evolving that
I might be able to combine with this, forexample.
(16:45):
Right?
So the big pharma will usually go for the moreobvious, right?
So let's take gene editing again and delivery,for example, right?
So they will look at proven delivery technologyand combine this, your new editing technology
wise.
Maybe for you, it's the risk to take to go bothinto new delivery and new editing, right, which
you have already the new editing in that case,or you're coming from the other side.
So that's when you can create something maybe,which is really differentiated, right, towards
(17:08):
what is out there.
And that's what you should focus on.
And you can finance that and build on that andvalidate it with the partnerships potential.
That's what I love about BD.
It's a three-dimensional chest
I think maybe to add on what Peter said, one ofthe important points is to really do a lot of
homework.
It's a lot of homework learning the landscapes.
And benefits and disadvantages and gaps intherapeutic areas.
(17:32):
So if you're coming with an Morgan platform,but it's a very good sustainable less toxic
Morgan delivery.
What's your real added value?
What medical gap are you answering here thatothers haven't?
And that's the homework you should sit and dobefore choosing which indications the partner.
And it's exactly like Peter said that if it'san ecological product, And there's a big pharma
(17:56):
you can partner quickly and have a proof ofconcept on your platform, then you could move
forward with others if you did your homeworkBeller.
Great.
So many companies, so many platform companiesare trying to partner with the same Middle East
or pharma companies.
Right?
They're not 1000 of them.
We all know who the top pharma companies are.
So they are just inundated with inbound ofdifferent companies who want to talk and
(18:20):
partner with how do you separate yourself?
How do you separate the signal to noise and howyou get, like, even in front of the right
people?
So what's the best way to develop relationshipwith pharma and get in front of the right Pete.
I think the most important word here is trust.
Right?
Every good interaction and very greatrelationship and business relationship starts
(18:42):
with the highest level of trust.
If you know someone that trusts you, Thatshould be one of your first choices.
So it can be, let's say, if we tier the pharmacompanies in 1, 2, and 3, either cash on hand
or buy a big pharma midsize or small pharma.
If you have a good trusting relationship, youhave to remember that signing a deal is the 1st
(19:04):
day of a long term relationship.
Right?
So that always works.
So trust, you have to know the company.
Pharma BD are pretty brilliant people.
They understand in-depth the company strategy.
They know what's going to happen in thecompany.
5 years from now and probably 10 years fromnow.
They know what they're looking Morgan, and youas an entrepreneur know your company.
(19:25):
You know your technology you should know howyour technology compliments theirs.
You don't know what's happening behind thescenes and their Morgan D teams, but you
definitely know what's your added value and whythis partnership is best for both sides.
So you should come with that know how.
I'm going back to what we said in the beginningthat if you don't have a Cbo yet or a VP Beller
(19:46):
make sure, you know, your board of directorsare very well connected.
And if they're not, get a bunch of advisorsjust pay the best people to get advice on who
to reach and how.
And then you have to work hard.
You have to go to boss and again to Boston andthen the JP and to the bio.
And again, to these meetings, and you have tobe really kind and nice and patient.
(20:09):
And never, never neglect the process.
These are very long processes.
Even if you're frustrated, my good guess isthat the pharma biz dev executive that's
working with you is no less frustrated than youfrom the length of the process.
While you're sitting, he has to pull his r andd team his business team, his transaction team,
(20:30):
and probably a bunch of 10 other teamsinternally before he gets back to you with an
initial answer thing enough to move forward.
So lots of patience, good strong board, pay foradvisors.
If you don't have them, look for them, askpeople around, and, you know, working hard and
taking calculated risks.
Yeah.
Very, very good points.
(20:50):
Right?
But maybe I would add, but maybe you said it,but so I think the relationship building starts
that's very early.
Right?
And we have now wonderful tools.
Right?
I mean, we have LinkedIn and so on.
Right?
I mean, all these kind of things in addition togoing to partnering meetings.
Right?
I mean, and it's not like that stiff anymore.
Like, it used to be, right, like a black suittie and so on.
No.
There's the evening events, right, and andstart connecting when you don't need Pete.
(21:13):
Right, the partnership so that you have thenetwork in place, right, when it's time to go
there.
Right?
I mean, talk about be very honest and spend,right?
I mean, you're not there Pete.
Right?
I mean, tell them, I mean, what you're planningto do, what is still required.
I mean, it's too early, but you can come back,right?
I mean, once the data is there and so on, sothat you're already known in the field, right,
and the company is known in the field.
And that can be done in various ways.
(21:34):
There's also other partnering events, right, Imean, there's research building openings and so
on.
I'm always surprised, like, I don't see manycompanies there, right, and you go there.
And it other people say it's a waste time, youknow, and you're just going for Beller,
whatever.
No.
But it's a relationship building.
Right?
It's networking already at that Beller.
Right?
And you meet again, and it's And then also whatwe've seen more and more people are moving
around from one company to another, right?
(21:56):
So, I mean, I think being extremely respectfull is very important as well.
Right?
If there's a negative decision on yourtechnology, maybe that was, like, at the
highest levels of the company strategicdecision to not do it or whatever.
Right?
Or there were other relationships that madethis work.
But that person that you were talking to ormore will be tomorrow at a different company,
right?
And so then, you know, if you destroy therelationship, right, I mean, that's not good.
(22:20):
But if you have this relationship, right, Imean, I think that's very important.
I had one example of still at Bayer, we werenegotiating with another large pharma company.
And we even went to this, like, no go point inbetween, right, where we separated during the
negotiation Nothing did go the right way.
They came back.
We finished.
It was an option agreement.
We signed the option agreement after manymonths of negotiation.
(22:42):
The option failed, right, but I did not Pete.
But still afterwards, I met those Pete, right,and we had beers at one of the bios and so on.
Right?
And so then you know, I mean, whenever you meetthem again, they will talk to you again, right?
Doesn't matter.
I mean, that this failed, right?
It wasn't your input, right?
I mean, that made this fail.
It was all because you were just representingthe values and the requirements of the company.
(23:02):
Right?
And so don't take it personal, right, and just,yeah, think about this.
I mean, we're trying to do the best, right, onboth sides.
And so It doesn't work out all the time.
So
It's really good advice.
Yeah.
And I think soft skills are so so important.
I think an advice to founders.
You wanna find the right BD First step, do youlike him?
The right BD, people you would like to go todrink with that you like?
(23:25):
I like both of the people here very much andthe you know, that's very important.
Like, you know, people think it's all about thebrain and being smart and being calculated and
knowing the deal terms, Much of it is, youknow, you want to do business with those
people.
So but he talked about data.
So what kind of evidence or traction doplatform companies need to show before they go
to pharma?
Yeah.
That depends on the platform.
(23:45):
Right?
I mean, so in the Pete editing space, and it'sdeveloping.
Right?
I mean, so when technology is new, right, youdon't need that much, and you maybe try, I
mean, identify the few companies that arewilling to go in early, right, but some does
more conservative companies.
And you learn that also over time.
Right?
I mean, I know which company I don't have to govery early I know where I can try it at least.
Right?
But I think if it's developing further, I thinkto convince also upper management very often in
(24:11):
vivo data is just to try it.
Right?
So it means a mouse model should be done.
That's what people want to see.
Right?
And I've seen it in the past even for ex vivoediting companies want to see in vivo editing
because they want to see that the system worksin a safe ride.
I mean, even if you think, like, from a scienceperspective, there's no real link necessarily,
right, but they feel more confident, right, andthat's what you have to provide confidence in
(24:34):
making the deal.
Right?
It's also, I mean, if you look at the revenuesof a large pharma company.
Right?
I mean, a a 20, 30,000,000 up front seems to besuper small.
Right?
But it's still a lot of money, and thiscompetes after all Flint internal funding,
right?
So 20,000,000 not invested at a company likePfizer for research also means quite a few FTEs
that are not hired, right, Morgan so we shouldnot forget this, right?
(24:57):
I mean, they are making a commitment, and theywant to be very confident in that this is the
right technology.
And that's why I think animal models are veryoften now asked for.
And as the technology evolves, you see thismore and more.
Right?
I mean, more on validation required
Yeah.
It seems like it takes a lot of time to createthose relationship and gather this knowledge.
Definitely Pete like you that can advisecompanies are just It's worth every penny.
(25:20):
So let's talk about another thing.
So it's one thing to have a meeting, and it'shaving me, it's a totally another thing to
close a deal.
So how long do you think the whole processshould take.
And do you have any advice to help get a dealover the finish line?
I think it should take a week.
Oh, that's it's a good question, right?
I mean, they shouldn't forget.
Right?
I mean, so even the larger companies, right, Imean, they include external lawyers, for
(25:45):
example, right, in negotiations.
But for the small company, this is moreexpensive.
Right?
I mean, the end, I mean, it's more part of thebudget.
Right?
And so if you drag this all along, I mean, itgets more and more expensive, right, and it's
also not knowing it and the BD person, right?
I mean, it's all I mean, pay, right?
I mean, if you pay half a year or a year,that's the difference.
Right?
I've seen, and many of my colleagues andfriends said the same thing during the
(26:05):
pandemic, we definitely saw expansion you'remaking, right?
I mean, it took much longer than usual, right?
I mean, because of no face to face, if you asby, as you can imagine, it was across the
Atlantic, right?
I mean, in the country and the Atlantic.
So 9 hour time difference, right?
You don't have a 5 hour meeting in the morning,right?
I mean, you had to limit it to 1:2 hours andthen do it again and again, right?
I mean, and so that James it much more, longer,but I think generally to 6 months is a good
(26:31):
guideline that you should shoot for, but thenit always depends also on the of the deal,
right?
For sure.
I mean, what is involved?
And many people only see the deal making forstarting the collaboration, but you also need
to think about what if things go wrong, right?
And then that's when it can get verycomplicated as platform companies, right?
I mean, so if the other farmer company bringsin other technology, combining with your
(26:53):
platform technology.
What if the project is terminated, right?
Do you get access to the full project, or doyou just get back your IP, right, which doesn't
help you because now it's not I mean, youcannot bring it to the clinic without the other
technology, right?
So all these things, right?
I mean, when it can get very complicated, it'sreally dependent on the case.
So it used to be much easier for sure for justan asset deal, right, a small molecule that you
(27:15):
license after phase 1.
I mean, could be done much faster.
Right?
And if they were at the end of the year, somecompanies did them, like, super fast, like 6
weeks, 8 weeks.
Right?
I mean, but I don't think that's feasible forplatform deals.
I mean, it's way more complicated than and thenyou mentioned the vertex methods example.
Right?
I mean, vertex is in the field with otherpartners, right, also complicating the things
(27:36):
more, right, and if you're the exclusivepartner of a farmer company, right, in the
fields that you're working in.
So there's all these kind of things that makeless predictable, but I would say 3 to 6 months
would be now after the pandemic with face toface meetings possible would be a good goal.
I think it takes us back maybe to what wediscussed about what you're curving out of the
company.
(27:56):
Right?
If you're curving out a product, the platform,the complexity of the deal, So a very short
deal could be an M and A.
If you're, a very high valued company andsomeone is trying to competitively buy you, it
can take weeks.
But if it's a very complicated deal where thepharma company is risking anything from their
knowhow, it can be a very long complicateddeal.
(28:16):
And it take even up to 9 month 1 year.
And maybe in the mindset of the entrepreneurs,we should separate because for us, maybe it's
obvious, Peter, but It's not when you start thediscussion 3
to 6 months.
The discussions can take a year until
you find the right turns and find the right wayto work together and what's in it for each one.
(28:43):
And you just like you said, you go to the JPand you have the beer and you have you know,
the scientific discussion.
So that can take even up to a year.
And then the deal itself is 3 to 6 months.
So maybe, just to manage the expectations ofpeople who are hearing.
It's not like today, we met and in March, we'llhave a deal.
Today, we met and in March 2024, We might havea deal.
(29:07):
And you need a very, very long, you know,ability to breathe and be persistent and
persuasive and kind and diligent and patient tomake sure that this process is followed
throughout that time.
And it will go up, and it will go down.
So do you see any red flags or mistakes youfeel founders often make when they think about
(29:29):
this dev other than thinking that it will onlytake 3 months I
think one of the the mistakes that I've seeneverywhere, right, I mean, and it's always
tempting, but only looking at the numbers of adeal, right, and thinking what is a good deal,
what is a bad deal, right, It's not.
Right?
I mean, we discussed this earlier.
There's value making.
Right?
I mean, the contribution from both companies,the benefits for both companies, is it,
(29:51):
complimentary you know, what they bringtogether to the table and so on.
I think that can be more important than theinitial early value of a deal.
Right?
So that's one.
And I think the second one is, I think, I yousaid, like, it's a team job.
Right?
I mean, and so it it is super important to alsoget involved, right, as the founders.
So I think they sometimes think now we havehired a Cbo, a business development person.
(30:14):
Now I can lay back that person will do the joband get us a deal done Right?
No.
You are part of this, right, as the founder,and you are the face of the company.
And you also need to make these connections,right, and bring them in.
But then there's delegation of some of theparts that will be done by the BD person.
Right?
But it's still it's one team that workstogether on this.
And it's responsible if the deal is not gettingdone.
(30:35):
Right?
It's not the BD person only, right?
If there's a mistake on, yes, right?
I mean, you can see that true.
But otherwise, you should also ask yourself asthe founder.
I mean, why didn't we get the deal done?
Right?
I mean, was it maybe, you know, could I havedone Morgan, right, and so on?
I see very often this, like, separated bad Peteor whatever.
Right?
I mean, so that's not the case, and peopleshould be very careful about that.
(30:56):
I think that was, so accurate, Peter.
I think other mistakes maybe that are worthmentioning are making unrealistic promises.
So be really realistic when you share theinformation with a pharma company.
If something's still in development, then justsay so.
Maybe it's a good deal for co development forthem.
It's just worth being honest.
It's a really long term relationship.
(31:17):
And then maybe what we talked about that it'sreally important to know the landscape and
competition well before approaching so comingand sort of learning together with them just
what work.
And the other thing is that, well, you thinkthat you and the pharma company are the only
partnership that's happening.
You know, Marie, like, we have a 1000, youknow, 2000 decks a year.
(31:38):
So do they, at least if not twice as much, Sojust make sure that your process is on track
and prioritize.
And I think, you know, don't neglect that.
And on the other hand, don't neglect your workand your progress of the company.
Because if you meet every few weeks or everyfew months, it's really cool to have, you know,
some progress.
You can share Morgan email.
(31:58):
You can shoot saying we have great news.
We've been funded by a non dilutive fundingopportunity, and it's another validation for
them about your platform.
Morgan and then another mistake that I'm seeingis the negotiation and the deal structure.
There is never one size fits all.
So even if you saw that that company did 10asset deals of $5,000,000 Flint, $20,000,000
(32:23):
milestones, and 500, you know, half a$1,000,000,000 or whatever something else.
Many times those numbers are just nonrealistic.
Don't look at the numbers that are on thepaper.
Look at what the deal is worth for you and whatthe real value of the deal is.
Do your own homework, with your own numbers,learn from you, what you did, and then come to
the table.
(32:43):
You have your red lines as fine to back even asa small company from the deal and say that it's
not a good deal for you, but don't look atother deals and say this is what we have to do.
Many of the numbers that are published arejust, fake news.
Peter is smiling.
He's probably seen a press release or 2.
Yeah.
Mean, we can't say, right?
I mean, with the same day, we published thebuyer Mammoth's deal.
(33:06):
There was also the deal beam and Pfizer, right?
And for sure, the upfront was higher, but itwas also a different stage of technology,
right, and people didn't understand.
They said, like, oh, Pete editing company wasbig pharma.
Why did they get more money?
Right?
So I had to ask these questions.
I had to answer the questions Flint interviews.
Right?
But then people understand that it's, like,it's trivial.
Right?
I mean, it's and the benefit for us, I mean,was huge, right, for the deal as well.
(33:28):
Yeah.
Faken news.
Very sad.
So I'm going to actually do something fun forme and maybe save me some time in one of my
next board meetings.
So Let's Pete your brain.
Some fun use case.
Let's say hypothetically, I have a company thatcreate a novel lipid number article that can
target the logs.
Let's just say what the Jess that companyshould do, should they wait to partner the
(33:50):
platform with many different, pharma companiesthat maybe have more experience in the specific
indications or control their own future andsay, oh, we discovered something nobody else
can do.
Maybe we'll just find a drug without deliverything, without delivery technology, and develop
it ourselves hypothetically.
So without knowing all the details, It dependsif they have one asset targeting the lung or
(34:13):
multiple assets targeting the lung.
And if it's targeting the lung, which cells isit targeting in the lung?
And if it's targeting cells in the lung, didthey go through non human primate data, or have
they not?
And if they have, how toxic is it?
And it's such a complicated branching questionsand and goes to the endless, you know, micro
(34:33):
informations that you need in order to decidewhat indication to go.
But I think if 5 years ago, everyone would havesaid CF, today, it would be CF, right, because
it's a highly competitive space, many newtechnologies.
And on the other hand, if you have really goodtargeting, can you, you know, choose one of the
lung indications Which payload will you take?
(34:56):
So, again, we're in the six dimensions oftoxicity, CMC indications, cell targeting, So
if I had a few, I would outlicense 1 and keepsome to myself or, you know, split them between
myself and the company, but that'shypothetically
Yeah.
I mean, it's a good question.
Peter should get the kidney now.
(35:19):
Kidney is a more to be honest.
No.
But it's about the payload.
Right?
I mean, so you need to get access to payload,right, unless you have it, and it's and it
needs to be differentiated.
Right, as well.
I mean, only delivery will enable it, right?
I mean, delivery is an enabler, right, wherethe payload is usually the differentiator
Right?
I mean, unless you can really differentiateregarding toxicity and so on, right?
(35:40):
I mean, but I think that's the big question.
Right?
So and I think it could be one of theseexamples, as I mentioned earlier, for
partnering with another smaller company, right,that has payload potentially, right, and then
move together towards one indication and make areally cool proof of concept, right?
Or, I mean, I think if it's really early, thendefinitely a partnership with Farmer or a
(36:01):
larger biotech would help to validate thetechnology.
Right?
And when you said discovery, right, I mean, Iguess, I mean, I I know how they discovered,
right, it's also proving this process ofdiscovering, right?
And I think that's very valuable then as well.
And for that, you could indeed give up anindication where you say if it's a very
attractive one, but there's also a lot ofcompetition.
Right?
So partnering might be the right way to do inthat space, right?
(36:23):
But there's more indications than CF, right, inthe lung NFE as I rightfully said.
I mean, there's different cell types, right?
And if you can differentiate between the celltypes, then you might enable many more
indications, right, that are also valuableafter all.
We don't think of yet, right, because nobodycan deliver yet to them, right?
So And that's why you want to have access toPeter Nielle.
(36:44):
I wish I could just go one by one with all mycompanies and get some free advice because
every company is very different with differentneeds.
I want to emphasize maybe one thing that I seethat some platform companies can do.
So we have several companies in our portfoliothat can actually, I won't say sell, but kinda
(37:04):
commercialize the platform as a service And itused to be Flint about.
It's like a CRO, and nobody wants to be a CRO,but it's a way to make money and generate data
and potentially being able to fund your ownpipeline development.
Have you seen those kind of companies?
And what's your thought around that?
Yeah.
I've seen it.
Right?
I mean, so there are some new technologies inmanufacturing, for example, and where this kind
(37:28):
of applies.
Right?
I mean, it could be a CDMO or it could beproviding the service the IP, the know how,
right, so that a larger company can implementthis manufacturing process.
It's way more difficult because, I mean, that'smaybe specific to manufacturing, but to come in
so early because the regulatory password willdepend on all these technologies, right?
So you cannot go and get your IND and then say,no, we changed the whole manufacturing process.
(37:50):
And go back, right?
I mean, that will move you back by 2 years orwhatever.
And so you have to be very early at the timewhen nobody wants to admit they will not be
able to manufacture Right?
So that's always the biggest challenge.
Right?
I mean, we have to convince the companies thatthere's a need for new technology, right, and
which is not very easy for our scientists in alarge company to admit, right, that they need
(38:12):
us very early.
So you need a very good use case and maybe aninternal program that has been moved forward
could be done in partnership, right, I mean,but it needs to be something where this was
applied to and this technology or service.
Right?
And then you have a very nice kind of, like,reference case.
Right?
I mean, like, you can create a white paper,whatever.
Right?
I mean, that you can then help peopleunderstand that this is actually something that
(38:36):
they would benefit from taking your services.
But I think it's very difficult sometimes toconvince companies here because it's always
this dilemma.
I mean, no scientist wants to admit.
We can't do this.
Right?
And that's why we need somebody else for this.
I think it's also a chicken and egg, randomly,because if the company has funding to move
their pipeline forward, then they should dothat.
(38:57):
They should move forward and create the realvalue for their investors and shareholders and
for the company and for the patients.
And if they don't, then they have they mightfind themselves in a position that they're
looping in 2 circles.
1 is creating a financial opportunity, selling,you know, CRO services or a certain, asset that
they know how to produce.
(39:18):
And then trying to move their pipeline forwardin parallel.
It's really hard and really stretches the seaof the company that works, 3 jobs as is, but,
you know, as a last resort, I think it canwork.
Let's say the other side of it is that theseplatform companies We're built on excellent
platforms, usually.
(39:38):
Right?
And once you go to the pipeline, you neglectthe platform Pete James.
So you invest in the pipeline because that'swhat creates the value to your company and you
neglect the platform.
And if it's a computational platform, it cancause, you know, both frustration to the
computational team that brought this from up.
And the other side of that is that otherplatforms will come to the table and be
(39:59):
stronger if you haven't developed yours inparallel.
So doing these collaborations, a pseudo CRO canalso benefit the level of your platforms
keeping that.
So there are benefits to it, but from a valueperspective, the value will come from your
pipeline.
Yeah.
And, oh, my, I think it's also coming back toone of your earlier questions regarding Cbo
(40:19):
business development.
I think it's a little bit of a differentbusiness development person that you would have
in those companies.
Right?
I mean, maybe an example is Synagogue, right?
I mean, those are definitely different Pete.
Right?
I mean, from a skill set that you need, then aCbo who's more strategic to give focus Right?
I mean, pipeline building, partnershipbuilding.
And so on alliance management, right, it'sdifferent.
Right?
This is more like service support versus alignsmanagement, right, in a asset partnership and
(40:42):
so on.
So if you make that additional shift, right, Imean, you have to also build differently,
potentially.
Shouldn't forget that.
So both of you have been very active in thisspace either at companies or investing in
companies.
Are there any new avenues for biz dev thatfounders often overlooked or more tricks of the
trade to make the process faster.
So I think what I see more coming, right, andbecause course, there are so many competing
(41:05):
platform companies now, right, and more, Imean, in the Pete editing phase space
specifically, right?
I mean, you see a lot of companies coming Ithink we should think more about partnering
this competition in the end.
Right?
The small companies can do that.
Right?
I mean, there's no laws again to smallcompanies working together, right, and
dominating a field.
I mean, so I think that's what we will see inthe future to get faster, right?
(41:26):
I mean, to maybe even combining, I mean, wetalked editing and delivery.
Right?
I mean, I could foresee companies thatpreviously had this idea, or we want to be both
these hybrid model, vertical, and horizontalintegration, right, and now you work together,
right?
I mean, and try to move specific projects,maybe an area just, right?
I mean, it doesn't have to be all of thecompany, right, just an area forward.
(41:47):
I think that could go much faster if you'reboth at a very early stage.
You can be more risk taking, right, on bothsides than the big pharma company, right, that
they think about the commercialization andeverything.
Right?
I mean, so I think that's an opportunity thatwe will see more often.
Even the joint venture, right, I mean, betweenBay and Christmas there, particularly,
something new in the space, right, and It tooknot as long as doing a deal, actually,
(42:08):
honestly, to set that up.
And so I think that those are ways.
I mean, how you could do it.
Otherwise, faster.
I mean, if you're a true platform company andyou have done a deal already or 2, hopefully,
you can apply some of the learnings and alsoeven, you know, make it more like a template
deal.
Right?
If it's always the same, the conditions are theJames, the partners are similar in nature, then
(42:28):
hopefully you can speed up the process.
Right?
But otherwise, I mean, like people.
Right?
Everybody is different and that it's verydifferent.
Every marriage is different.
Right?
I mean, every deal is different.
I mean, it takes time, unfortunately.
I completely agree with you, Peter.
I think the you know, the M and A of Guide wasan excellent example, but it doesn't have to be
an M and A.
It really can be a interesting creative deal.
(42:50):
Between early stage companies.
And we saw it a lot when Alnylam and Modernastarted, like, clusters of deals where they
have a great platform that they can, outlicensepart of it and then get some from others.
I think there's a lot more potential there.
I agree with you that payload and deliverycompanies will be getting married, a lot in the
(43:10):
next 2 years.
I think other overlooked avenues are alsobetween the digital companies and the platform
companies.
So you can really push forward many of theplatform companies with tools that are out
there from smaller companies And I think we'llbe seeing those as well.
Again, for these, the most important part willbe networking, right, because you need to have
(43:31):
a good relationship with these Pete.
And only then you can even start a discussionthis.
Right?
I mean, you will not go out to your fiercecompetition and say, hey.
Can we do a partnership?
Right?
I mean, you do this because you know thepeople, right, behind and that's how you or the
investors, right, I mean, can also bringtogether companies.
I I mean, very important.
Yeah.
Great.
So before we end, is there anything I missed?
(43:51):
Anything you want to say that I we didn't havea chance to talk about.
Just should say is business development isgreat.
Right?
It's great.
It's very important right now.
Right?
I mean, so there's definitely more need I mean,what I see when I get approached.
Right?
I mean, there's more need right now.
I think because of this funding situation.
Right?
So the big question is, will it safe like thatforever.
Right?
I mean, or if the situation with VC fundinggets better, I mean, will companies move back
(44:15):
more towards internal development?
Right?
It's an open question.
I don't know anybody has an opinion or thoughton that.
I completely agree that business development isthe funniest part in the company It's, the
strategic creative, you know, it has so manyelements that are unique.
And in this era where funding is a realchallenge to companies, you can really shine
(44:37):
and move the company to wonderful places withsmart, patient, professional business
development.
And the second point that we talked about isdon't do it alone.
You don't have to invent business development.
It's, you know, it's an existing art.
It's a prior art.
And you can get lots of help from excellentexecutives that are already there.
(44:58):
And the third thing is that We really try tohelp our platform companies in any way we can.
We build a whole team that that's what they do.
Connect them to strategic connect them to otherVCs.
And that's actually one of the reasons I joinedJames, but if you are surrounded by a strong
VC, just get their help.
You're not alone, and don't try to deal withthis issue alone.
(45:21):
I think Umree, you and your team are runningaround Boston as well with your companies.
Right?
Yeah.
So, again, thank you so much.
I have only one question left is how do I getmore people like you?
Because all my companies need a great CDO andbusiness development people and, how to find
the worth their weight, you know, literally ingold and dollars So it's great to know both of
(45:44):
you.
Thank you for helping our companies, and thankyou so much for spending the time with us
today.
Thank you.
Thank you, Omri.
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