From Leanne and Susie on The Nutrition Couch this episode:
- We share our thoughts on all the different milk options, including plant based milks;
- We discuss news reports about the link between certain diet soft drinks and cancer;
- Our listener question is about fruits vs. veggies: which is better.
So sit back, relax and enjoy this week’s episode!
Tune in on Wednesday for your mid-week motivation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What sort of milk do you buy at home?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Are you a full cream type of person or do
you prefer skim or maybe are one of the many
Australians who are changing to a plant based milk option.
On today's episode of The Nutrition Couch, Susie and I
chat about the controversial topic of milk or should I
say milk like mylk and share our thoughts on all
the options.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Hi, I'm Leanne Wood and.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I'm Sissy Burrow and every week we bring you The
Nutrition Couch, the biweekly podcast that keeps you up to
date on everything that you need to know in the
world of nutrition, as well as what milk is best.
Today we look at the latest evidence on the link
between diet coke and cancer, and our list of question
is all about our fruit and vegetable intakes and is
one better than the other.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
But to kick us off today, Susie, there.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Was an article mentioned in the media a couple of
weeks ago really talking about the different types of sweetness
found in diet cokes and a lot of what's been
trending online has essentially been diet coke causes cancer. That's
basically been the big media clickbait headlines. So let's have
a little talk about that, because I sure you know,
as dietitians we never heavily promote things like diet coke,
of course, but you know, I have a client who's
(01:05):
going out to lunch and they don't want to have
any alcoholic drinks. I'll say that, I'm sure if it's
the middle of summer you want to have a diet coke, like,
that's okay with me as an occasional thing. But it's
not like we're promoting it as a daily thing or
anything like that. So I think actually diving deeper into
some of their research is quite interesting because the type
of artificial sweeteness in diet coke is something called a
spider man, and that's a very common artificial sweetener, right.
(01:27):
And it's made headlines basically all around the world for
this new link to cancer. But like most clickbait media headlines,
it isn't all like it's sort of written up to be,
is it.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Well know, you know, there's been discussion about diet coke
and cancer for as long as I've been a dietitian,
and I'm partial to a cheeky diet coke. Certainly, I
try not to do it too often because it does
disturb my sleep, and I think it's like everything, it's
headlines and sensationalized because people like to think that some
(02:00):
food ingredients are toxic and cancer causing. Now what the
World Health Organization is basically done is changed the category
ranking of dit coke two. I think it's a two
B category, which means it may or possibly causes cancer.
And basically that category is what we would call a
very beaige category according to the World Health Organization's rating,
because they don't have enough evidence to say otherwise, so
(02:23):
they're basically covering themselves to say we're not quite sure.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Now.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Of all the evidence that we've read in the past
twenty years looking at dit coke, the most profound I've
come across is to show that the interaction between us
A spartame and sodium benzoeit, which is the preservative used
in some soft drinks, It appears the interaction has some
role to play in mitochondrial function and more specifically neurological conditions.
(02:48):
So I think that there's certainly something there, But it's
like these things, there's not one food that just causes cancer.
It comes down to a lot of other variables. It's
things like do you have a family risk of developing
some types of cancers, what's your diet like overall? How
much diet coke do you drink, or how much artificial
sweeteness do you use. So it's one of those things
that many things will be toxic for us if we
(03:08):
have too much. Alcohol is probably the classic example. You know,
we're all very quick to target diet coke, but we're
happy to down a bottle of wine on the weekend.
So there's far more evidence for alcohol and the link
to some types of cancer than a spartananan diet coke.
What I would say is that anything in excess is
probably not a good idea. So if you're someone who's
having the multiple cans a day the leader bottles, it's
probably not a bad idea to wean off and cut
(03:30):
back over time, because it's like all highly processed foods,
and soft drink is one of the most ultra process foods.
You can consume. The less of it you have, the better.
It's certainly not something I would introduce into the diets
of children. You know, we'll go to the club with
families and they'll be buying kids drink soft drinks, and
I'm thinking to me as a dietitian, it is like poison.
The less of it we have, the better. And I
think that the more of it, in my experience, you
(03:52):
have because sweetness and up to two hundred times sweeter
than sugar itself, it lends itself twenty more and more.
So you have one and then all of a sudden
you're craving more. To me, anecdotally working with clients, that
drives appetite. So I really try and limit amounts. And
I think if you're someone who has a six hundred
bottle a day, if you can wean down to a
can and then to a small can, it's like anything,
the less of it you have, the less you want.
(04:13):
I try and limit it to when I go to
Hawaii as a little treat if I'm really really needing
a hit.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
But just observe.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
As I said to me, it affects my sleep in general.
But I do wonderland if that is why there's been
a general shift with soft drinks and Coca Cola in particular,
they're shifting a lot more to Coke zero, which is
using slightly different sweetener mixes. And I do wonder if
that's part of it, because there's a lot of pressure
on them as a company to change that blend and
(04:40):
to go for more natural alternatives. But yeah, there's no
need to be alarmed. But I think if you are
a megasoft drink drinker, and in particular diet coke, I
certainly would be weaning down and use it as more
of an occasional drink as opposed to something you're drinking
every single day. And just notice because there are there
is sort of evidence out there that it can have
some impact on neurological symptoms.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
Certainly it can affect sl.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Because of the caffeine, and you know, anything highly processed
like artificial sweetener is not good for us. So you know,
no account today, you probably won't cause cancer, but it's
probably not doing you a lot of favors. And just
something to be mindful of how much you're having and
whether you can you know, substitute in some water or
can butcher or something instead, particularly if you do have
you know, cancer in the family and there are risk factors.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
It's a really important point and I'll just quickly break down.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
I guess a bit of the science behind this furailsis
at home because the International Agency for Research on Cancer,
which is termed that IAARC, which is part of the
World Health Organization or body. Why this is blown up
is because they actually reclassified a sparta man, as you said,
as a class to be carcinogen. So what that officially
means is that it has a possible cancer risk. So
(05:44):
I guess the first thing to note is really like
what type of classes are there? So the IARC, goodness, bit,
that's a mouthful. The International Agency for Research on Cancer
estimates that that cancer risk is split into four separate categories.
So Category one is that it causes cancer. There's a
dual wrecked link that it causes cancer. Category two A
means that it probably causes cancer. Category to B means
(06:06):
that it possibly causes cancer, and that's what they've reclassified
diet coke into. And Category three means that there's zero
evidence available on any sort of cancer risk. And as
you said, because a lot of the research papers are
a little bit it's kind of murky gray area. There's
some say a little bit, some say nothing. And because
there's not all of the papers saying absolutely nothing, I
(06:28):
think they had to bump it upper category and reclassify
it but it is a very low possible risk for
a cancer causing substance. So it's no mean to get
alarmed if you just got to go out and have
the casual diet coke. There's absolutely no research to support
that it's automatically going to give you cancer. But like
most things, like you said, Susy, it comes down to
how much and the frequency that you have. And also
in that class to B lists, like people might think, oh,
(06:50):
if it's classes to be it's a possible cause of cancer,
there's a lot of other healthy products in that list
as well. So kfeinic acid, which is found in coffee,
is in that class to BE list. Alvira is in
that class to B list, nickel, even some types of
coconut oil products as well. So it's not to say
that these are all horrible things we should absolutely get
rid of them. Are we here promoting diet coke? No.
(07:12):
But if you like the occasional diet coke, I don't
really see a problem with that. But it's when it
becomes one every single day, or one at luncheon, one
at dinner every single day, where your habit becomes like
you're having a leater of it. You know, a couple
of times a week that's when things might get out
of control. So I think when with these world health
organizations have to remember is that they're talking at a
population health level really, So if everybody started taking up
(07:36):
the habit of drinking diet coke, yes, there'd probably be
a huge explosion of cancer worldwide, and the health facilities
would't actually be able to keep up with that. So
I think they're always going to lean towards being more
conservative than nothing. But it's a really interesting discussion anyway,
and a good time to just take a real look
at your diet overall. And if you do have a
lot of these artificial sweetness creeping in, maybe time to
(07:56):
try some different things. Try some herbal teas, particularly as
it's a bit cool in winter, to try some more
natural based sweetness. There's a couple of soft drinks on
the market now with more natural based sweetness, or even
get one of those what are those like homemade that
they like homemake soda water or zip tap or something
like that where you can just get your own bubbly
water from home and that way you're getting the nice
kind of bubble and feeling of like you're geting a
bit of a treat, but it's.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Not covered in you know, the artificial sweetness.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
As well, or just a soda stream.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
You know, I've.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Had a Yeah, zip tap is amazing. You know.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
My kids just drink leaters of what they call bubbly water,
which I'm very, very happy with. There's no concern with
soda water, even though people think it's got salt. It's
got a tiny amount of minerals. That's insignificant. It really
doesn't matter. But soda stream is sort of another convenient option,
and you can make it then as bubbly as you like,
and kids love that, and it's like anything land. Kids
will drink what they're used to having. If you give
(08:47):
them fruit juice and lemonade, they're going to want that.
If you only ever give them bubbly water and even
want to throw a splash of a bit of lime
juice or something, they'll have that. So you don't have
to be scared. They're not missing out by not having
sweetened drinks. It's I would call it poison. So I
really think that for kids, we have to be quite clear.
There's nothing good with soft drink for kids, even as
(09:07):
a special treat and I think towards the sparkling waters
if you can, because when you make them a treat,
the kids want them more. So you know something to
think about if you're a parent, intend to buy the
Shirley Temple elimonade at the club. Thus it's expensive, like
wh wants to pay three bucks for a soft drink
at the moment. Anyway, moving on, Leanne, I've had a
(09:27):
drama in my world of dietitian writing. So I was
going along just doing a milk article for my editor
at the Sydney Morning Herald because we wanted to talk
about basically the issues with plant milk nutritionally, which you
and I have covered many times in terms of they
lack the calcium and protein of regular dairy based milk.
So my editor had asked me to go through and
(09:49):
basically rank and give a rating for all the different milks.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Full cream, soy, almond, coconut.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
So I went and did it, and I just didn't
even think anything of it, because you know, I've written
I reckon an article on milk twenty times in my career. Anyway,
it went live last week and a few weeks ago,
so we're recording in advance because you're about the popular child.
And it went crazy, Like I had like all these
radio interviews and people asking about it, and they were
all headlining it that I'd given full cream milk six
(10:17):
out of ten.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Now, how did I give the milks the ratings?
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Land Well, I sort of there was no method overly
in the madness other than I was sort of like.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Nutritional pros and cons full cream milk.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Ah, it's you know, it's natural, it's got calcium and protein,
but it's got a lot of saturated fat.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
Strained needs saturated fat. Gave it a six.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Now, in hindsight, maybe I should have given it a
seven as a whole food, but really the rating.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Was just a bit of novel discussion to be honest.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Anyway, I got this real pushback from a journalist who
was arguing that I was wrong.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
It should be ten out of ten. What am I thinking?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
And I just thought, God, I don't know why I
do this work, because really it's.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
An article on milk.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
But I thought it lent itself for you and i'd
have a chat about mealk and is.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Full cream milk that bad?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Because obviously people are interested in it, because I don't
think we've actually ever discussed that. So just to start off,
I want to talk primarily about that is full cream
milk that bad for us? But let's just do a
bit of a summary about milks in general. So milk
in the diet is the type you choose as a
personal preference. I could not care less if you want
to drink coconut milk, drink what you like. My job
(11:23):
is a dietician. Our job is to give people and
in the information to make an informed choice about what's
right for them. And don't get me wrong, there's certainly
a component of eating and nutrition that's about tasting good.
So if you love it, fantastic. So my main point
with this article was that if your preference is for
plant based milk because you don't want to have dairy,
or you don't like it, or you can't tolerate it nutritionally,
(11:46):
the one that's closest to dairy milk is soy milk.
It's got a similar protein level, the fat types are similar,
So if you have full fat soy, it's similar to
full cream milk, and if you have low fat soy,
it's similar to loafat or skim milk. And it is
generally sort of companies like Vita Soy and Sanitarium where
it's fully fortified. You're getting a good dose of calcium
minerals like magnesium. So my argument is, if you want
(12:08):
to have plant milk for the health benefits, you're probably
best with soy. Then if you don't like soy, it
gets a bit tricky because things like almond oat they're
not milks. They're plant juice. You know, it's three to
six percent oat or almond with water, and then they're
formulated with oils and sugars.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
So for us as nutritionists, they're not a milk.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
You know, they're a formulated food to try and mimic milk,
but they're not the same. You get know any of
the calcium, you get know any of the protein, And
I see implications of that because my clients don't realize
it and they're not getting enough calcium. So that's my
main focus when I'm dealing with clients. So that's a
plant milk topic and we've sort of covered it before.
But when we're looking at dairy milk, if I'm looking
(12:46):
at say there's three types, there's full cream, so full
cream milk is just regular cows milk it's got ten
percent fat, six percent saturated regular calcium protein.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Then you've got rejuice.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Fat, which is like light white, so that's got about
four percent fat, about one gram saturated again similar protein, calcium.
And then you've got skim which is less than one
percent fat. It's got less natural sugars actually than full cream,
which is a common misconception that that skim milk's got
more sugar.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
That's not true at all.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Skim milk's not overly processed more than full cream, it's
just had the fat taken out. Now, the reason in
general that nutrition professionals will recommend a reduced fat or
low fat milk is that the only extra benefit you
have from full cream is extra fat. An extra fat,
which is not insignificant when you people are having two hundred,
three hundred, five hundred meals per day. Adds up and
(13:33):
in the diet of Australians we get plenty of saturated
fat from cheese, meat, processed food, ultra processed food, cakes, biscuits, pastries.
So when we're modeling diets where like if you don't
mind having low fat or skim milk or prefer it,
it means you're not getting the saturated fat. But that's
not to say that I think it's bad. I just
think that most of my clients don't mind swapping because
(13:55):
they're often eating cheese and getting their saturated fat there
because we alrely got probably twenty thirty a saturated fat
to play with, and if you have a couple of
serves of full cream milk, that's you know, at least
half of that.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
In one hit.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
So if I've got a client who it's really healthy,
doesn't eat any other junk food, isn't a big cheese eater,
and wants to have a full cream milk coffee a day,
I have no problem with it. But that's not generally
what I see. I have people who have multiple serves
of milk a day plus eating out.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
They don't need the.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Extrasaturated fat, so that's why I take it out, and
they're happy with that because most people don't mind. So
it's that's the nutritional rationale, because I can't give full
cream milk at ten because it's really high and saturated
fat and it's not offering anything else than skim although fat. Now,
I will say that the recommendation for kids have also changed.
Now when I had studied and worked in pediatrics. The
(14:42):
recommendations were for kids to have full cream milk to
the age of five. Now it has changed and now
it's reduced fat milk after the age of two, and
I didn't wasn't aware that change. But I'm also a
bit hastened to say that I wouldn't change a child
to reduce fat milk unless they had a weight issue.
I would absolutely leave kids on full cream milk TOI
there at least five, because again, if they're having an
(15:04):
unprocessed diet the way we like to feed kids, I'm
not going to give a kid low fat milk. So
that was a bit controversial as well, So I just
wanted to have a discussion about it because it certainly
raised a lot of interest. There was certainly a lot
of pushback on it. I was just like, oh, so,
don't need this. It's an article about milk. But that's
why we don't give full fat milk a ten out
of ten, because it's basically quite a high fat kind
of food, and I nutritionally can't say it's as good
(15:27):
as low or reduced fat milk. So maybe I should
have given it a seven. But that is why low
fat milk gets a ten. I think Soyer even gave
an eight. But yeah, for the saturated fat issue, which
Australians have far too much of.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
So that's my rant. Anything you'd like to add.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
No, because I think when you look at the average aestrain,
the average astrain is overweighted. No, Bee, And I said
that on my Instagram the other day, and I got
a lot of pushback because you know, we live in
this body positive, love my body culture, which I'm more for.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
But if you look at.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
The statistics, the average Austraian is overweight to or obese.
You know, sixty plus percent of Australia overweight to obese.
We have a weight problem. And full cream milk has
more calories than what skim milk is, and like you said,
if you're having one or two copies a day on
full cream milk, that's a couple of hundred extra calories.
You can shave off on extra hundred or two hundred
calories if you easily swap that to skim or a
light milk. So I've always been a bit fan of
(16:16):
recommending a lighter type of milk for my clients as well, unless,
like you said, they have a strong preference with full
cream milk. Sure, I'll make it work. But what I
also think that is worth a quick discussion is the
type of saturated fat and dairy. So yes, it's not
as bad as the saturated fat in salami or in
you know, the saturated fat in the skin of a
chicken or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
It behaves a little bit differently.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
So dairy saturated fat is what I would, for lack
of a better word, term neutral sushi. So I generally
say to my clients, we've got our great positive, anti
inflammatory fats from salmon, avocado, extraversion, olive oil, all of
the good fats that we want, nuts and seas. Then
we've got out what I call kind of negative fats,
which you know, animal products, that sort of thing, biscuits,
(17:00):
that sort of thing. We don't want too much of them.
But then there's this third type I call in the middle,
which is more dairy fats, which I call neutral. And
for a lot of my clients whose goal is to
lose body fat, they don't have a huge calorie budget
to play with, so my preference is generally to give
them fats that are positive and anti inflammatory, salmon extraversion,
olive oil, some nuts and seas and lower the fat
(17:20):
content in things like dairy. So I generally, for most
of my clients would use a lower fat dairy, whether
that's milk or cheese or yogurt. But like you said,
if they have strong preferences, absolutely we can make it work.
So I think it's well worth the discussion. But I
don't think there's any right or wrong. And like you said,
people get very paranoid. They say, oh, I can't have
skim milk. Actually, someone wrote this on my threads, you know,
the new social media platform. I downloaded it a couple
(17:42):
of days ago throughats and I said, curious to know
what type of milk do you guys drink or what
type of milk and ylk do you guys drink? And
only one person out of the response a SUSI said
full cream milk, one other person said skim, and everybody
else it was a planned type of milk. So it's
a really interesting shift that I think Aussie is overall
a moving complet, depletely away from dairy milk altogether. But
(18:02):
also a lot of comments were saying, you know, I
used to drink skin, but then I read that there
was far too much sugar in it, So now I
drink oat, or now I drink cashew, or now I
drink almond milk or whatever it might be. So there's
this big misconception that skim milk is just jacked full
of sugar. But it's the natural types of sugar from
the lactose and from the carbohydrate in there as well.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
So we would still turn both.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Skim and loafat and full cream milk as a whole food.
So my preference is kind of like you do you
whatever you enjoy, but don't be turned off things like
skim or loafat nook because of the sugar content, because
I guarantee you the majority of Australians are getting far
too much sugar in every other area. A cup of
skim milk or to a date isn't really what's contributing
to the added sugar in the diet.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
It's one of the most common misconceptions skim milk is
heavily processed and has sugar added. It's completely false, and
actually skim milk has got less sugar is naturally just
by tiny amount than full cream milk. So you know,
it's one of those things that I think because we've
become blas We've spoken about it for so many years,
but it obviously peaked interest. So basically that the end.
(19:03):
The summary for us is if you love a full
cream milk coffee once a day and your diet's really healthy,
I have no issue with that. But certainly if you're
having multiple serves of milk a day, if you do
have high cholesterol or family history of heart disease, if
you are looking at weight control, you know certainly it's
not an insignificant contributor to fat in the diets of Australians,
which is also why we're fussy about cuts of meat
(19:25):
and things. So I'm sure it will come up again
the ind but that's our feelings on milk.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Right, We're going from one diet coke to one milk
to now some fruit. The last segment of our show
our list of question that somebody is sent through on
our Instagram account, which if you don't follow us, it's
the Nutrition Couch podcast on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Give us a follow.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
A listener wanted to know is two pieces of fruit
every day bad if you eat loads of vegetables. So
when we look at the recommendations for astrains, austrain adults.
The recommendations are generally five plus serves of vegetables a
day and about two servings of fruit each day, so
having two servings of free each day actually lands you
bang within the recommendations in terms of the requirements for
(20:05):
most Australians. Now, this question did say two pieces of fruit,
so a piece of fruit might not actually equal a
serving of fruit because if it was a small fruit
like a little plum or a little I don't know,
a kiwifruit or something, two small pieces of fruit actually
equals one serving. So you could actually have four small
pieces of fruit and still come in line with the
two servings each day. But so this question is a
very simple one to answer. It's absolutely okay to have
(20:27):
two pieces or two servings of fruit each day, whether
or not you eat loads of vegetables, because there's tons
of nutrients and fiber and antioxidants and things like fruit,
So of course we want you to eat your veggies,
but no issues at all having two pieces of fruit.
But the question I normally see Susie or people normally
write into me on my social media accounts is can
I eat five fruits and two vegetables instead? So, really,
(20:48):
where the limits are placed on fruit is because of
that natural sugar. Yes it's natural, but it is still sugar.
So if you're going to have five servings of fruit
but only two servings of vegetables, you're going to get
in a lot more natural sugar then you would do.
And if you had five serves of vegetables, so just
be causes of that, you can't. It's not sort of
like an interchangeable recommendation. There is a reason that we
sort of tend to limit fruit, and we're not just say,
(21:10):
you know, eat fruit in abundance because unfortunately, if it
was one hundred years ago and we had a very
natural whole unprocessed died and we moved a ton a
lot more than we do now, it wouldn't be a problem.
But at the moment, ossies don't move anywhere near enough
as much as we should, and we're eating far too
much sugar from discretionally food items and ultra processed foods
as it is, so we have to put some sort
of limitation somewhere, and unfortunately fruit falls under that. If
(21:33):
I have a client and they're eating basically know what
I would call soul foos, they don't drink alcohol, they
rarely eat out. I have no problems that they want
to have a couple of pieces of fruit every day,
but that's not what the majority of Austraians do sadly.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, and I think the other sort of the other
angle was, is it okay if they don't eat that.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Many pieces of fruit and have enough veggies?
Speaker 3 (21:51):
And my aunt's would be absolutely as long as a
client is having at least one piece of fruit just
for dietary fiber. I find if clients aren't having say
apple kiwii or often affecting their gut or berries, although
berries are really expensive at the moment, I'm happy with
more veggies and less fruit. I don't mind if clients
don't love fruit. I try and encourage one for vitamin C.
But yeah, I wouldn't be overly concerned if people were
(22:13):
reaching to as long as they were getting one, because
in nutritionally the vegetables have the lower calorie load, really
high vitamin mineral content, and that's actually what people don't
get enough of. So yeah, I tend to say to
the one piece of fruit today and things you know,
as I said, at the moment, things like kiwi fruit berries,
mandarins or really good nutrient rich sources.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Absolutely all right. Well, that brings us to the end
of the Nutrition Couch for another week. We'd love if
you could check out our website, which is a nutrition
couch dot com. We have a ton of different products
up there. Of course, there's a Perry Plan up there,
there's a product Guy, there's a Techaway Guide, and very
soon to come to the market will be our brand
new Snack Guide as well. We're working really hard on
that to bring you guys it very very soon. So
(22:52):
we hope everybody has a wonderful week and we will
catch you in it next week's episode.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
See you on Wednesday.
What sort of milk do you buy at home?
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Are you a full cream type of person or do
you prefer skim or maybe are one of the many
Australians who are changing to a plant based milk option.
On today's episode of The Nutrition Couch, Susie and I
chat about the controversial topic of milk or should I
say milk like mylk and share our thoughts on all
the options.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Hi, I'm Leanne Wood and.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I'm Sissy Burrow and every week we bring you The
Nutrition Couch, the biweekly podcast that keeps you up to
date on everything that you need to know in the
world of nutrition, as well as what milk is best.
Today we look at the latest evidence on the link
between diet coke and cancer, and our list of question
is all about our fruit and vegetable intakes and is
one better than the other.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
But to kick us off today, Susie, there.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Was an article mentioned in the media a couple of
weeks ago really talking about the different types of sweetness
found in diet cokes and a lot of what's been
trending online has essentially been diet coke causes cancer. That's
basically been the big media clickbait headlines. So let's have
a little talk about that, because I sure you know,
as dietitians we never heavily promote things like diet coke,
of course, but you know, I have a client who's
(01:05):
going out to lunch and they don't want to have
any alcoholic drinks. I'll say that, I'm sure if it's
the middle of summer you want to have a diet coke, like,
that's okay with me as an occasional thing. But it's
not like we're promoting it as a daily thing or
anything like that. So I think actually diving deeper into
some of their research is quite interesting because the type
of artificial sweeteness in diet coke is something called a
spider man, and that's a very common artificial sweetener, right.
(01:27):
And it's made headlines basically all around the world for
this new link to cancer. But like most clickbait media headlines,
it isn't all like it's sort of written up to be,
is it.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Well know, you know, there's been discussion about diet coke
and cancer for as long as I've been a dietitian,
and I'm partial to a cheeky diet coke. Certainly, I
try not to do it too often because it does
disturb my sleep, and I think it's like everything, it's
headlines and sensationalized because people like to think that some
(02:00):
food ingredients are toxic and cancer causing. Now what the
World Health Organization is basically done is changed the category
ranking of dit coke two. I think it's a two
B category, which means it may or possibly causes cancer.
And basically that category is what we would call a
very beaige category according to the World Health Organization's rating,
because they don't have enough evidence to say otherwise, so
(02:23):
they're basically covering themselves to say we're not quite sure.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Now.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Of all the evidence that we've read in the past
twenty years looking at dit coke, the most profound I've
come across is to show that the interaction between us
A spartame and sodium benzoeit, which is the preservative used
in some soft drinks, It appears the interaction has some
role to play in mitochondrial function and more specifically neurological conditions.
(02:48):
So I think that there's certainly something there, But it's
like these things, there's not one food that just causes cancer.
It comes down to a lot of other variables. It's
things like do you have a family risk of developing
some types of cancers, what's your diet like overall? How
much diet coke do you drink, or how much artificial
sweeteness do you use. So it's one of those things
that many things will be toxic for us if we
(03:08):
have too much. Alcohol is probably the classic example. You know,
we're all very quick to target diet coke, but we're
happy to down a bottle of wine on the weekend.
So there's far more evidence for alcohol and the link
to some types of cancer than a spartananan diet coke.
What I would say is that anything in excess is
probably not a good idea. So if you're someone who's
having the multiple cans a day the leader bottles, it's
probably not a bad idea to wean off and cut
(03:30):
back over time, because it's like all highly processed foods,
and soft drink is one of the most ultra process foods.
You can consume. The less of it you have, the better.
It's certainly not something I would introduce into the diets
of children. You know, we'll go to the club with
families and they'll be buying kids drink soft drinks, and
I'm thinking to me as a dietitian, it is like poison.
The less of it we have, the better. And I
think that the more of it, in my experience, you
(03:52):
have because sweetness and up to two hundred times sweeter
than sugar itself, it lends itself twenty more and more.
So you have one and then all of a sudden
you're craving more. To me, anecdotally working with clients, that
drives appetite. So I really try and limit amounts. And
I think if you're someone who has a six hundred
bottle a day, if you can wean down to a
can and then to a small can, it's like anything,
the less of it you have, the less you want.
(04:13):
I try and limit it to when I go to
Hawaii as a little treat if I'm really really needing
a hit.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
But just observe.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
As I said to me, it affects my sleep in general.
But I do wonderland if that is why there's been
a general shift with soft drinks and Coca Cola in particular,
they're shifting a lot more to Coke zero, which is
using slightly different sweetener mixes. And I do wonder if
that's part of it, because there's a lot of pressure
on them as a company to change that blend and
(04:40):
to go for more natural alternatives. But yeah, there's no
need to be alarmed. But I think if you are
a megasoft drink drinker, and in particular diet coke, I
certainly would be weaning down and use it as more
of an occasional drink as opposed to something you're drinking
every single day. And just notice because there are there
is sort of evidence out there that it can have
some impact on neurological symptoms.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
Certainly it can affect sl.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Because of the caffeine, and you know, anything highly processed
like artificial sweetener is not good for us. So you know,
no account today, you probably won't cause cancer, but it's
probably not doing you a lot of favors. And just
something to be mindful of how much you're having and
whether you can you know, substitute in some water or
can butcher or something instead, particularly if you do have
you know, cancer in the family and there are risk factors.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
It's a really important point and I'll just quickly break down.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
I guess a bit of the science behind this furailsis
at home because the International Agency for Research on Cancer,
which is termed that IAARC, which is part of the
World Health Organization or body. Why this is blown up
is because they actually reclassified a sparta man, as you said,
as a class to be carcinogen. So what that officially
means is that it has a possible cancer risk. So
(05:44):
I guess the first thing to note is really like
what type of classes are there? So the IARC, goodness, bit,
that's a mouthful. The International Agency for Research on Cancer
estimates that that cancer risk is split into four separate categories.
So Category one is that it causes cancer. There's a
dual wrecked link that it causes cancer. Category two A
means that it probably causes cancer. Category to B means
(06:06):
that it possibly causes cancer, and that's what they've reclassified
diet coke into. And Category three means that there's zero
evidence available on any sort of cancer risk. And as
you said, because a lot of the research papers are
a little bit it's kind of murky gray area. There's
some say a little bit, some say nothing. And because
there's not all of the papers saying absolutely nothing, I
(06:28):
think they had to bump it upper category and reclassify
it but it is a very low possible risk for
a cancer causing substance. So it's no mean to get
alarmed if you just got to go out and have
the casual diet coke. There's absolutely no research to support
that it's automatically going to give you cancer. But like
most things, like you said, Susy, it comes down to
how much and the frequency that you have. And also
in that class to B lists, like people might think, oh,
(06:50):
if it's classes to be it's a possible cause of cancer,
there's a lot of other healthy products in that list
as well. So kfeinic acid, which is found in coffee,
is in that class to BE list. Alvira is in
that class to B list, nickel, even some types of
coconut oil products as well. So it's not to say
that these are all horrible things we should absolutely get
rid of them. Are we here promoting diet coke? No.
(07:12):
But if you like the occasional diet coke, I don't
really see a problem with that. But it's when it
becomes one every single day, or one at luncheon, one
at dinner every single day, where your habit becomes like
you're having a leater of it. You know, a couple
of times a week that's when things might get out
of control. So I think when with these world health
organizations have to remember is that they're talking at a
population health level really, So if everybody started taking up
(07:36):
the habit of drinking diet coke, yes, there'd probably be
a huge explosion of cancer worldwide, and the health facilities
would't actually be able to keep up with that. So
I think they're always going to lean towards being more
conservative than nothing. But it's a really interesting discussion anyway,
and a good time to just take a real look
at your diet overall. And if you do have a
lot of these artificial sweetness creeping in, maybe time to
(07:56):
try some different things. Try some herbal teas, particularly as
it's a bit cool in winter, to try some more
natural based sweetness. There's a couple of soft drinks on
the market now with more natural based sweetness, or even
get one of those what are those like homemade that
they like homemake soda water or zip tap or something
like that where you can just get your own bubbly
water from home and that way you're getting the nice
kind of bubble and feeling of like you're geting a
bit of a treat, but it's.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Not covered in you know, the artificial sweetness.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
As well, or just a soda stream.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
You know, I've.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Had a Yeah, zip tap is amazing. You know.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
My kids just drink leaters of what they call bubbly water,
which I'm very, very happy with. There's no concern with
soda water, even though people think it's got salt. It's
got a tiny amount of minerals. That's insignificant. It really
doesn't matter. But soda stream is sort of another convenient option,
and you can make it then as bubbly as you like,
and kids love that, and it's like anything land. Kids
will drink what they're used to having. If you give
(08:47):
them fruit juice and lemonade, they're going to want that.
If you only ever give them bubbly water and even
want to throw a splash of a bit of lime
juice or something, they'll have that. So you don't have
to be scared. They're not missing out by not having
sweetened drinks. It's I would call it poison. So I
really think that for kids, we have to be quite clear.
There's nothing good with soft drink for kids, even as
(09:07):
a special treat and I think towards the sparkling waters
if you can, because when you make them a treat,
the kids want them more. So you know something to
think about if you're a parent, intend to buy the
Shirley Temple elimonade at the club. Thus it's expensive, like
wh wants to pay three bucks for a soft drink
at the moment. Anyway, moving on, Leanne, I've had a
(09:27):
drama in my world of dietitian writing. So I was
going along just doing a milk article for my editor
at the Sydney Morning Herald because we wanted to talk
about basically the issues with plant milk nutritionally, which you
and I have covered many times in terms of they
lack the calcium and protein of regular dairy based milk.
So my editor had asked me to go through and
(09:49):
basically rank and give a rating for all the different milks.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Full cream, soy, almond, coconut.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
So I went and did it, and I just didn't
even think anything of it, because you know, I've written
I reckon an article on milk twenty times in my career. Anyway,
it went live last week and a few weeks ago,
so we're recording in advance because you're about the popular child.
And it went crazy, Like I had like all these
radio interviews and people asking about it, and they were
all headlining it that I'd given full cream milk six
(10:17):
out of ten.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Now, how did I give the milks the ratings?
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Land Well, I sort of there was no method overly
in the madness other than I was sort of like.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Nutritional pros and cons full cream milk.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
Ah, it's you know, it's natural, it's got calcium and protein,
but it's got a lot of saturated fat.
Speaker 4 (10:34):
Strained needs saturated fat. Gave it a six.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Now, in hindsight, maybe I should have given it a
seven as a whole food, but really the rating.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Was just a bit of novel discussion to be honest.
Speaker 3 (10:45):
Anyway, I got this real pushback from a journalist who
was arguing that I was wrong.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
It should be ten out of ten. What am I thinking?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
And I just thought, God, I don't know why I
do this work, because really it's.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
An article on milk.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
But I thought it lent itself for you and i'd
have a chat about mealk and is.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Full cream milk that bad?
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Because obviously people are interested in it, because I don't
think we've actually ever discussed that. So just to start off,
I want to talk primarily about that is full cream
milk that bad for us? But let's just do a
bit of a summary about milks in general. So milk
in the diet is the type you choose as a
personal preference. I could not care less if you want
to drink coconut milk, drink what you like. My job
(11:23):
is a dietician. Our job is to give people and
in the information to make an informed choice about what's
right for them. And don't get me wrong, there's certainly
a component of eating and nutrition that's about tasting good.
So if you love it, fantastic. So my main point
with this article was that if your preference is for
plant based milk because you don't want to have dairy,
or you don't like it, or you can't tolerate it nutritionally,
(11:46):
the one that's closest to dairy milk is soy milk.
It's got a similar protein level, the fat types are similar,
So if you have full fat soy, it's similar to
full cream milk, and if you have low fat soy,
it's similar to loafat or skim milk. And it is
generally sort of companies like Vita Soy and Sanitarium where
it's fully fortified. You're getting a good dose of calcium
minerals like magnesium. So my argument is, if you want
(12:08):
to have plant milk for the health benefits, you're probably
best with soy. Then if you don't like soy, it
gets a bit tricky because things like almond oat they're
not milks. They're plant juice. You know, it's three to
six percent oat or almond with water, and then they're
formulated with oils and sugars.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
So for us as nutritionists, they're not a milk.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
You know, they're a formulated food to try and mimic milk,
but they're not the same. You get know any of
the calcium, you get know any of the protein, And
I see implications of that because my clients don't realize
it and they're not getting enough calcium. So that's my
main focus when I'm dealing with clients. So that's a
plant milk topic and we've sort of covered it before.
But when we're looking at dairy milk, if I'm looking
(12:46):
at say there's three types, there's full cream, so full
cream milk is just regular cows milk it's got ten
percent fat, six percent saturated regular calcium protein.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
Then you've got rejuice.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Fat, which is like light white, so that's got about
four percent fat, about one gram saturated again similar protein, calcium.
And then you've got skim which is less than one
percent fat. It's got less natural sugars actually than full cream,
which is a common misconception that that skim milk's got
more sugar.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
That's not true at all.
Speaker 3 (13:12):
Skim milk's not overly processed more than full cream, it's
just had the fat taken out. Now, the reason in
general that nutrition professionals will recommend a reduced fat or
low fat milk is that the only extra benefit you
have from full cream is extra fat. An extra fat,
which is not insignificant when you people are having two hundred,
three hundred, five hundred meals per day. Adds up and
(13:33):
in the diet of Australians we get plenty of saturated
fat from cheese, meat, processed food, ultra processed food, cakes, biscuits, pastries.
So when we're modeling diets where like if you don't
mind having low fat or skim milk or prefer it,
it means you're not getting the saturated fat. But that's
not to say that I think it's bad. I just
think that most of my clients don't mind swapping because
(13:55):
they're often eating cheese and getting their saturated fat there
because we alrely got probably twenty thirty a saturated fat
to play with, and if you have a couple of
serves of full cream milk, that's you know, at least
half of that.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
In one hit.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
So if I've got a client who it's really healthy,
doesn't eat any other junk food, isn't a big cheese eater,
and wants to have a full cream milk coffee a day,
I have no problem with it. But that's not generally
what I see. I have people who have multiple serves
of milk a day plus eating out.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
They don't need the.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Extrasaturated fat, so that's why I take it out, and
they're happy with that because most people don't mind. So
it's that's the nutritional rationale, because I can't give full
cream milk at ten because it's really high and saturated
fat and it's not offering anything else than skim although fat. Now,
I will say that the recommendation for kids have also changed.
Now when I had studied and worked in pediatrics. The
(14:42):
recommendations were for kids to have full cream milk to
the age of five. Now it has changed and now
it's reduced fat milk after the age of two, and
I didn't wasn't aware that change. But I'm also a
bit hastened to say that I wouldn't change a child
to reduce fat milk unless they had a weight issue.
I would absolutely leave kids on full cream milk TOI
there at least five, because again, if they're having an
(15:04):
unprocessed diet the way we like to feed kids, I'm
not going to give a kid low fat milk. So
that was a bit controversial as well, So I just
wanted to have a discussion about it because it certainly
raised a lot of interest. There was certainly a lot
of pushback on it. I was just like, oh, so,
don't need this. It's an article about milk. But that's
why we don't give full fat milk a ten out
of ten, because it's basically quite a high fat kind
of food, and I nutritionally can't say it's as good
(15:27):
as low or reduced fat milk. So maybe I should
have given it a seven. But that is why low
fat milk gets a ten. I think Soyer even gave
an eight. But yeah, for the saturated fat issue, which
Australians have far too much of.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
So that's my rant. Anything you'd like to add.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
No, because I think when you look at the average aestrain,
the average astrain is overweighted. No, Bee, And I said
that on my Instagram the other day, and I got
a lot of pushback because you know, we live in
this body positive, love my body culture, which I'm more for.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
But if you look at.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
The statistics, the average Austraian is overweight to or obese.
You know, sixty plus percent of Australia overweight to obese.
We have a weight problem. And full cream milk has
more calories than what skim milk is, and like you said,
if you're having one or two copies a day on
full cream milk, that's a couple of hundred extra calories.
You can shave off on extra hundred or two hundred
calories if you easily swap that to skim or a
light milk. So I've always been a bit fan of
(16:16):
recommending a lighter type of milk for my clients as well, unless,
like you said, they have a strong preference with full
cream milk. Sure, I'll make it work. But what I
also think that is worth a quick discussion is the
type of saturated fat and dairy. So yes, it's not
as bad as the saturated fat in salami or in
you know, the saturated fat in the skin of a
chicken or anything like that.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
It behaves a little bit differently.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
So dairy saturated fat is what I would, for lack
of a better word, term neutral sushi. So I generally
say to my clients, we've got our great positive, anti
inflammatory fats from salmon, avocado, extraversion, olive oil, all of
the good fats that we want, nuts and seas. Then
we've got out what I call kind of negative fats,
which you know, animal products, that sort of thing, biscuits,
(17:00):
that sort of thing. We don't want too much of them.
But then there's this third type I call in the middle,
which is more dairy fats, which I call neutral. And
for a lot of my clients whose goal is to
lose body fat, they don't have a huge calorie budget
to play with, so my preference is generally to give
them fats that are positive and anti inflammatory, salmon extraversion,
olive oil, some nuts and seas and lower the fat
(17:20):
content in things like dairy. So I generally, for most
of my clients would use a lower fat dairy, whether
that's milk or cheese or yogurt. But like you said,
if they have strong preferences, absolutely we can make it work.
So I think it's well worth the discussion. But I
don't think there's any right or wrong. And like you said,
people get very paranoid. They say, oh, I can't have
skim milk. Actually, someone wrote this on my threads, you know,
the new social media platform. I downloaded it a couple
(17:42):
of days ago throughats and I said, curious to know
what type of milk do you guys drink or what
type of milk and ylk do you guys drink? And
only one person out of the response a SUSI said
full cream milk, one other person said skim, and everybody
else it was a planned type of milk. So it's
a really interesting shift that I think Aussie is overall
a moving complet, depletely away from dairy milk altogether. But
(18:02):
also a lot of comments were saying, you know, I
used to drink skin, but then I read that there
was far too much sugar in it, So now I
drink oat, or now I drink cashew, or now I
drink almond milk or whatever it might be. So there's
this big misconception that skim milk is just jacked full
of sugar. But it's the natural types of sugar from
the lactose and from the carbohydrate in there as well.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
So we would still turn both.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Skim and loafat and full cream milk as a whole food.
So my preference is kind of like you do you
whatever you enjoy, but don't be turned off things like
skim or loafat nook because of the sugar content, because
I guarantee you the majority of Australians are getting far
too much sugar in every other area. A cup of
skim milk or to a date isn't really what's contributing
to the added sugar in the diet.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
It's one of the most common misconceptions skim milk is
heavily processed and has sugar added. It's completely false, and
actually skim milk has got less sugar is naturally just
by tiny amount than full cream milk. So you know,
it's one of those things that I think because we've
become blas We've spoken about it for so many years,
but it obviously peaked interest. So basically that the end.
(19:03):
The summary for us is if you love a full
cream milk coffee once a day and your diet's really healthy,
I have no issue with that. But certainly if you're
having multiple serves of milk a day, if you do
have high cholesterol or family history of heart disease, if
you are looking at weight control, you know certainly it's
not an insignificant contributor to fat in the diets of Australians,
which is also why we're fussy about cuts of meat
(19:25):
and things. So I'm sure it will come up again
the ind but that's our feelings on milk.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Right, We're going from one diet coke to one milk
to now some fruit. The last segment of our show
our list of question that somebody is sent through on
our Instagram account, which if you don't follow us, it's
the Nutrition Couch podcast on Instagram.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Give us a follow.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
A listener wanted to know is two pieces of fruit
every day bad if you eat loads of vegetables. So
when we look at the recommendations for astrains, austrain adults.
The recommendations are generally five plus serves of vegetables a
day and about two servings of fruit each day, so
having two servings of free each day actually lands you
bang within the recommendations in terms of the requirements for
(20:05):
most Australians. Now, this question did say two pieces of fruit,
so a piece of fruit might not actually equal a
serving of fruit because if it was a small fruit
like a little plum or a little I don't know,
a kiwifruit or something, two small pieces of fruit actually
equals one serving. So you could actually have four small
pieces of fruit and still come in line with the
two servings each day. But so this question is a
very simple one to answer. It's absolutely okay to have
(20:27):
two pieces or two servings of fruit each day, whether
or not you eat loads of vegetables, because there's tons
of nutrients and fiber and antioxidants and things like fruit,
So of course we want you to eat your veggies,
but no issues at all having two pieces of fruit.
But the question I normally see Susie or people normally
write into me on my social media accounts is can
I eat five fruits and two vegetables instead? So, really,
(20:48):
where the limits are placed on fruit is because of
that natural sugar. Yes it's natural, but it is still sugar.
So if you're going to have five servings of fruit
but only two servings of vegetables, you're going to get
in a lot more natural sugar then you would do.
And if you had five serves of vegetables, so just
be causes of that, you can't. It's not sort of
like an interchangeable recommendation. There is a reason that we
sort of tend to limit fruit, and we're not just say,
(21:10):
you know, eat fruit in abundance because unfortunately, if it
was one hundred years ago and we had a very
natural whole unprocessed died and we moved a ton a
lot more than we do now, it wouldn't be a problem.
But at the moment, ossies don't move anywhere near enough
as much as we should, and we're eating far too
much sugar from discretionally food items and ultra processed foods
as it is, so we have to put some sort
of limitation somewhere, and unfortunately fruit falls under that. If
(21:33):
I have a client and they're eating basically know what
I would call soul foos, they don't drink alcohol, they
rarely eat out. I have no problems that they want
to have a couple of pieces of fruit every day,
but that's not what the majority of Austraians do sadly.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Yeah, and I think the other sort of the other
angle was, is it okay if they don't eat that.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Many pieces of fruit and have enough veggies?
Speaker 3 (21:51):
And my aunt's would be absolutely as long as a
client is having at least one piece of fruit just
for dietary fiber. I find if clients aren't having say
apple kiwii or often affecting their gut or berries, although
berries are really expensive at the moment, I'm happy with
more veggies and less fruit. I don't mind if clients
don't love fruit. I try and encourage one for vitamin C.
But yeah, I wouldn't be overly concerned if people were
(22:13):
reaching to as long as they were getting one, because
in nutritionally the vegetables have the lower calorie load, really
high vitamin mineral content, and that's actually what people don't
get enough of. So yeah, I tend to say to
the one piece of fruit today and things you know,
as I said, at the moment, things like kiwi fruit berries,
mandarins or really good nutrient rich sources.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Absolutely all right. Well, that brings us to the end
of the Nutrition Couch for another week. We'd love if
you could check out our website, which is a nutrition
couch dot com. We have a ton of different products
up there. Of course, there's a Perry Plan up there,
there's a product Guy, there's a Techaway Guide, and very
soon to come to the market will be our brand
new Snack Guide as well. We're working really hard on
that to bring you guys it very very soon. So
(22:52):
we hope everybody has a wonderful week and we will
catch you in it next week's episode.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
See you on Wednesday.
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