December 14, 2021 • 50 mins
Lily talks with Actor and Musician Jacob Gibson about his choice to live a creative life, the opportunity to transform our fear into energy towards our goals, and the insights that come from art.
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Intro Clip - Jacob Gibson (00:00):
I think so often, quietly we see
(00:06):
things in ourselves or, or havea seed of an idea about
ourselves. And for whateverreason, we choose to turn away
from it or ignore it. You know,I guess it's like intimidating
to acknowledge the potentialthat we all have inside of
ourselves.
Intro (00:29):
Welcome to the open exploration Podcast. I'm on a
mission to connect with RuleBreakers, Dream Makers and all
around inspiring people toexplore the possibilities for
living a vibrant and honest lifeon my own terms.
Episode Intro (00:52):
Hello, everyone, I hope you're all doing well and
that you're finding some balanceand fun and rest during this
busy season. I recently had thejoy of sitting down with my
friend, actor and musician JacobGibson. We got to have this
conversation that just filled mewith energy and inspiration and
new ways of thinking about lifeand creativity and fear and art,
(01:13):
and I'm so excited to share withyou all. I've known Jake since
we were in high school and he isjust a grounded, happy, genuine
person, as you're about to hearfor yourself. You might actually
have seen Jake perform - he wasin a particularly bloody but
awesome episode of Grey'sAnatomy. He also played AJ in
the hit series Greenleaf, whichwas produced by - dare I named
(01:36):
drop, - the one and only OprahWinfrey. When we caught up in
Denver, Jake was about to startworking on a super secret, super
exciting project halfway acrossthe world. The internet at this
point is definitely burstingwith this news, and Jake is
already halfway across the worldstarting to record for this
project. But I am certainly notgoing to leak any intel. I can,
(01:59):
however, tell you with absoluteconfidence that Jake is on the
way to big and beautiful thingsin his life and career. A quick
sidebar, it has been such a joyto hear from you. Lots of you
have reached out on Instagramand Facebook. And I really
cherish these opportunities toconnect with you. So keep them
coming. If you want to send somelonger winded love or scathing
(02:20):
reviews, or if you're interestedin sharing your story on the
podcast or recommending a guestor sponsoring the show reached
out to Lily that's li l y atopen exploration.org. I'm always
interested in talking to greatpeople who have taken creative
or surprising paths to a lifethat they really love. And that
(02:41):
really fits them. So reach outif you have someone in mind.
Anyways, I will not make youwait any longer to hear from the
legend himself. Here is myconversation with the wonderful,
insightful, inspiring, JacobGibson.
Lily Werthan (03:10):
Jake, I'm so glad to get to sit down and talk to
you.
Jacob Gibson (03:12):
Me too.
Lily Werthan (03:13):
Thanks for coming out to Denver. Not for this
specifically. But for makingtime while you're here.
Jacob Gibson (03:17):
I came just for this.
Lily Werthan (03:18):
I knew you did.
Well, you're not the only one. Ithink people are flying out all
the time to come talk to me.
Jacob Gibson (03:23):
Yeah. I believe it.
Lily Werthan (03:25):
Yeah. Oh, man, when I was thinking about, who
do I want to talk to, for thisshow? And just to get wisdom and
insight. I was thinking aboutpeople who have taken alternate
paths or who have becomesuccessful in a way that is sort
of unique. And I was thinking,okay, acting, music,
performance, being creative.
Those are the quintessentialjobs where everybody when you
(03:48):
say, that's what I'm going todo. They're like, Oh,
that's...good luck... you know,like, the best answer you get
is, that's gonna be tough, butgood luck. And the worst one is
like, nobody makes it don't eventry. So, how did you choose
acting and performing and music?
And maybe more to the point,what is it in you that you were
(04:12):
like, You know what, yeah, it'shard. Not a lot of people make
it...but I'm going to?
Jacob Gibson (04:16):
Yeah, that's such an interesting question. And I I
constantly reflect on whathelped push me on this path or
in this direction. And its equalparts feeling called towards
(04:38):
something. And feeling likepushed you know, or sometimes I
describe it as like, I feel ahand in front of me that's
dragging me forward, and also ahand on my back that's, that's
pushing me onward. So, you know,music, music was my, my first
(05:05):
passion. I just remember as akid, I just always thought that
no one, no one heard music theway that I did, you know, I just
would catch different sounds ofdifferent things and and just
was in love, you know, I guessit just with the way it made me
(05:28):
feel or you know, it's like,sometimes notes can do things
that my words can't. So that'sdefinitely where it started just
just loving music and I tookpiano lessons when I was
younger, you know, my, myparents saw that in me and try
to foster that musical muscle inme. But like, I think most kids,
(05:53):
when your parents ask you orencourage you to do anything,
you start to resent it. So Idefinitely it became more of a
chore at a time and took a stepaway, at least from like, the
practice of the craft aroundmusic, and then came back to it
(06:13):
in my own time, you know, fellback in love with it in my own
time as, as it became more likea way for me to express myself
not just like a, something to belearned or something to be
mastered.
Lily Werthan (06:28):
Yeah, that's so interesting. Were you playing
music when you were in highschool?
Jacob Gibson (06:33):
No, not much. You know, I did, I did do some
piano. I wasn't singing much. Ofcourse, I had some friends that
convinced me to freestyle. Sothat was really, I think, when I
first started putting words andmusic together, as far as my own
(06:55):
expression, like, what can I dowith my words, as well. But then
I did start singing again, justreally falling in love with it.
And really just, it's verymedicinal for me as well, like,
you know, poetry or even justthe the poetry of the voice or
(07:16):
the the vocal cords, or theresonance or the sounds that
your body makes, I know can bevery therapeutic. And although I
didn't quite have the awarenessor understanding of how
medicinal therapeutic thesethings were to me at the time, I
realized that, again, I wasbeing pushed to fall into these
(07:39):
these practices, you know, sothat was interesting. And then
acting wise, you know, my, mymother always thought I was such
a performer. And admittedly, Iunderstand I was a bit of a
class clown. But I would hateperforming. I hated getting on
(08:00):
stage in front of people, eventhough I loved being the Joker,
you know, the guy that madeeverybody laugh, but she would
want me to do recitals. And itwould just like, paralyze me. I
remember, I would convince herto pay me I'm like, you know,
I'll do it if you gave me $10.
And that's what really broke meinto it.
Lily Werthan (08:26):
That's hilarious that's like, so the opposite of
what you'd expect, you know,you're like, there was this love
in you, but you're like, I needI need some money for this.
Extrinsic motivation, to like,get over my fear of this.
Jacob Gibson (08:42):
Just a little nudge. You know, I think so
often, quietly, we see things inourselves or, or have a seed of
an idea about ourselves. And forwhatever reason, we choose to
turn away from it or ignore it,you know, I guess it's like
(09:02):
intimidating to acknowledge thepotential that we all have
inside of ourselves. So I reallythink it's a great segue for me
to pause and give gratitude forthe community around me in my
life that that supported me orallowed me to, to acknowledge
(09:25):
these qualities in myself. Andthe possibilities in myself and
I know that not a lot of peoplehave such support in their
family or in their community ora lot of people that believe in
them. And I know that thatsometimes can be make or break
(09:45):
for for people's dreams.
Lily Werthan (09:47):
Yeah, if there's somebody to, like, nurture that
little spark in you or to, Iguess, allow you to listen to
that nudge.
Jacob Gibson (09:55):
Yeah. Or just tell you like, Hey, you can if you If
you really work, if you reallybelieve, you dedicate yourself,
you know, and, and I, again,I've just had such a supportive
community and family and I'm sofortunate for that,
Lily Werthan (10:17):
Do you still get that stage fright? Or did you
figure out a way around that?
Jacob Gibson (10:23):
You know, I am very deep in my my practices
acting performing in music and,and along that journey, I have
just come to understand energiesin new ways and how energy
manifests itself and you know,nervousness or anxiety around
(10:48):
being on stage, I know is just aform in which the energy is is
taking at that moment. And if Ican give myself a moment to
acknowledge the existence ofnervousness or anxiety, then
(11:09):
once I I acknowledge it, then Ican kind of break it down, and,
and repurpose it. So, what wasnervousness can be broken down
and repurposed into excitement,or was anxiety can be broken
(11:31):
down and fed into preparation.
So I do, I do acknowledge, stillthe times where I get
butterflies or, or nerves arisebefore I step on stage or before
the camera rolls, but I am ableto take that moment for myself
and connect with my breath orground myself in the moment and
(11:54):
allow the energy to move throughme and change into something a
little more useful for me at thetime.
Lily Werthan (12:10):
That's such a cool way to think about it. I feel
like that's sort of shifting inmy own head, too. Like nervous
doesn't necessarily mean bad.
Usually, it means that you care,and like you said, there's a lot
of energy around whatever you'redoing.
Jacob Gibson (12:22):
Yeah, when I was in school, one of our required
classes in this Acting Programwas, was Tai Chi.
Lily Werthan (12:31):
That's awesome.
Jacob Gibson (12:32):
Amazing, amazing.
So that's been something thatI've incorporated into my life
practice and my craft practicefor years now. But my Tai Chi
teacher was one of the firstpeople that really helped me
understand that emotions areenergy, and you know, energy,
emotion, she says, emotion. Andagain, just being able to work
(12:57):
with that acknowledgement of theexistence of energy in whatever
form it's taking. And in Tai Chispecifically, you know, you're
using breath and body movementto, to activate this qi energy.
And again, just that practicewas helpful in me being able to
(13:19):
break down whatever emotions I'mexperiencing, and allow it to
move through me and becomesomething else, you know, and
not, not get caught dwelling ina certain emotion. You know. I
know, we have a tendency to, todwell, and on all sides of the
(13:39):
spectrum, you know, like, when,when you're sad, like, you
really just want to be sad.
Lily Werthan (13:47):
And feel like well, I guess I'm sad forever
now. I guess this is just me.
Jacob Gibson (13:50):
Yeah. And same with happiness. Like when you're
really joyful and happy. That'swhat you want to hold on to
forever and the anxiety of whathappens when this goes away, or
when this feeling goes away. Soyeah, I guess just again,
through Tai Chi, or many otherpractices, just being able to
(14:11):
allow it to move through me inenergies moving so to try to
hold on to a certain feeling ora certain energy without
allowing it to move ortransform. It's like, stagnant
water. It's like the movement iswhat allows us to, to stay
(14:32):
fresh.
Lily Werthan (14:33):
That makes so much sense to me. I don't know very
much about tai chi, but itstrikes me as pretty surprising
that that was a required class.
Do you know why that was?
Jacob Gibson (14:43):
And that, that me too, you know, I didn't I had no
previous experience or exposureto Tai Chi besides like,
peripherally in movies or, orwhatever. But I know for acting,
specifically acting it'sobviously, a full body
experience, at least the way Ihave come to understand it, and
(15:08):
requires a connection to yourbreath and a connection to your
body as well as yourimagination. And tight chi, for
me, just this, this deepconnection to breath, of course,
first, and then allowingmovement of energy connection to
(15:32):
body, being able to bring in acertain energy that wasn't there
before, or being able to releasea certain energy that is in your
system. And that, that, to me,is really important for trying
to take on a character, tryingto take on a story, you know,
(15:55):
you really have to clear outyour own story, make room in
yourself to receive somethingnew, or make room in yourself
to, to experience something thatyou might not have experienced
in your life, previously, andand activate that energy in a
(16:17):
certain way. Like, if I'm not,if I don't identify as an angry
person, how? How am I going to?
How am I going to find anger?
You know, of course, you know, Iuse my imagination, but if I
don't connect that to breath,then anger won't live,
truthfully, in my, in my system,and so I can I can use breath
(16:41):
to, you know, breathe on acertain circumstance, like,
what, what is this characterexperiencing right now? What
does it feel like to reallybreathe in that experience? And
then how does that sit in mybody to you know, we hold
(17:03):
emotion in our body, when youget angry, your shoulders tense,
you know, when you're scaredyou, your breath is shallow. And
so these practices to maintainthe body as, as the instrument
for performer and actor are, inmy opinion, so important for
(17:25):
sustainability? Or, you know,for instance, after I I play a
character who's extremely heavyor in a lot of pain, how do I go
about cleansing my system ofthat, so that I can return to
the Jacob state? You know, or towhat, what is home base for me.
(17:46):
And I think that, at least in myopinion, is something that has
been brushed over in acting is,how do we come back? We just are
expected to go there. But how dowe return?
Lily Werthan (18:02):
Right. You stretch yourself to like the extremes of
human experience and inhabitthis character that's not you,
and then how do you come back toyourself?
Jacob Gibson (18:09):
Yeah. So Tai Chi, physical practices and you know,
it might be different for forevery person, but for me, Tai
Chi was, is so grounding andjust allows me to, again, just
tap into my breath and, and apractice that has been going on
(18:32):
for 1000s of years. And that'sas pretty exciting to me just
feel like I can move my handsin, in a in a certain way and
know that millions of peoplehave moved in similar ways with
similar qualities of breath and,
Lily Werthan (18:52):
And maybe felt similar things like the shared
human experience in thatmovement. And in that mindset.
Jacob Gibson (18:57):
Yes, exactly.
Lily Werthan (18:59):
I've never thought so deeply about this, since
acting was never my form ofexpression. But it does seem
like such a spiritual way ofconnecting with a human
experience. And like you weresaying that you feel physically
in your body that when you feelangry, you tense your shoulders
and so that's something that youcan pull into, like your
(19:19):
practice of acting, but alsoyour practice of embodying this
human experience. That is, iswild, I think that your whole
career is such a and I don'tknow if you agree with me, but
it seems like such a spiritualpractice and like a study of
what it is to be human.
Jacob Gibson (19:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
I agree and feel like that ispart of why I don't know if I
have much choice in doingsomething else, because it's,
you know, of course, you, youlearn so much about yourself
your own emotional awareness,your body, your own mind. And
(20:02):
then, and then you also take onlives that are outside of
yourself. And it has definitelybeen extremely opening for me to
really just be able to step intosomeone else's shoes. I
(20:23):
acknowledge in myself, I wasborn a very empathic person, you
know, I'm one of the people thatlike, you're telling me a sad
story, and now I'm crying. Okay,don't worry, I'm fine. Like you
go. Yeah, I learned I learned somuch about just the
(20:43):
expansiveness of the humanexperience. And, and, and also
how deeply connected we all are,you know, I think at times that
we get tricked into feeling likewe're so far away from each
other. And it's, it's soilluminating for me to step into
a character and then find bitsof myself, or find bits of
(21:08):
someone that I know. Or am I Oh,wow, we're like, Wow, maybe I
would have been like this, hadmy circumstances been a bit
different. It really makes mesee people so lovingly, or
without judgment, you know? And,and listening, you know, I know
(21:30):
so much of acting is listening,that that is something that I
take, obviously, outside of justthe craft, but how do I, how can
I really listen to someone andthe experience or, you know, Im
a ceral people watcher. So I'mlike, I listen with my eyes, and
(21:52):
not just my ears, I'm like,looking at how this person is
standing and what their postureis like, and I'm like, Oh, wow,
like, okay, like, they must worka lot with their hands or, or,
you know, or they're carrying alot in their chest, or, or, Oh,
god, look at all that tension intheir hips.
Lily Werthan (22:14):
Imagining somebody's story by seeing the
way that they sort of arepresenting themselves to the
world, or even what they're nottrying to present. But what's
there, right?
Jacob Gibson (22:23):
Or how loud does this person talk? How quiet this
person talk? You know, it'slike, of course, my imagination
creates a whole narrativesaround people that I've never
even talked to you?
Lily Werthan (22:34):
Well, I mean, that seems like such an important
practice in the work that youdo, too. We, a bunch of our
friends were laughing at onepoint of like, the Jake that we
know, and like AJ, yourcharacter and Greenleaf, or some
of the other characters thatyou've played, they could not be
more different people. Like youare this person who is just
beaming light. And thesecharacters have been through
(22:56):
some serious shit and like, havethis serious heaviness to them.
And so I imagine so much of thatpractice is thinking about,
like, what might their story be,or, you know, how would they
carry themselves in the world?
Knowing what they've beenthrough?
Jacob Gibson (23:10):
Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. I
definitely get called to playsome some very heavy characters.
And, you know, I learn a lotfrom stepping into these, these
stories that are at timesdrastically different from what
I have experienced in my, mylife so far. But I feel so
(23:35):
privileged and honored to be thevoice for that, knowing that I
do feel like there's a light inme. And how can I step into
these characters and find a wayto let a bit of that light
become present even in theheaviest of circumstances. And,
(24:01):
and there's this, there's thisanalogy, that, that we're born a
bowl of light, and someone comesand puts a rock in our bowl, or
we put a rock in our bowl. Andthis happens all over and over
again. And at some point,there's so many rocks in the
(24:24):
bowl, that you can barely seethe light at the bottom. And
how, you know, the analogie'slike how can we go about
removing the rocks out of ourbowl so that the light can can
shine through and I very muchfeel that for, for the
(24:44):
characters I play or even justthe heavier or seemingly dark,
darker people that are in theworld, who carry, you know,
quote, unquote, a dark energy.
To me, it's just like wow, likeHow many rocks has this person
put in their bowl?
Lily Werthan (25:04):
And how can I like dig deeper to see what's real
underneath?
Jacob Gibson (25:08):
Yeah, or can I maintain the awareness that
underneath all that, there isthis wonderful, illuminating
source of light. You know, and,and I haven't... I haven't
looked into many newborns eyesand been like this is evil. You
(25:31):
know, so I, again I with thecharacters, you know, I can see
on on the page or see theactions that this character is
taking that there's someheaviness going on. And I'm
like, Okay, how do I identifywhat are the rocks that may have
been placed into this person'sexperience. And again, just as a
(25:53):
spiritual practice or lifepractice trying to see past all
all the rocks, or all the allthe things that have been put on
us or that we have put onourselves?
Lily Werthan (26:06):
Well, you and I both have been very blessed to
to grow up with so much support.
And in situations where we, youknow, we really didn't have so
many of those rocks placed inour bowls. But when I think
about you, and what I do know ofyour story, it seems like you
also are somebody who, whenfaced with really difficult
experiences that could be rocks,and could darken your light,
(26:28):
that you don't live it that way.
You know, like, I know, we havethe shared experience that we
both lost our moms within thelast couple years. That that's
something that could be a hugeand darkening rock. And it seems
to me that it's only deepenedyour ability to shine and to
(26:50):
feel on a different level.
Jacob Gibson (26:52):
Yeah. I mean, yeah. It's called a spiritual
practice. And I very muchidentify it as such as, as being
a practice. And, and it's like,you know, you don't go to the
(27:17):
gym, and you just start benchpressing, like 200 pounds, you
maybe just have to start withdoing pushups, or maybe you just
have to start with the bar. Andso I acknowledge that there is a
certain muscle in me that hasbeen strengthening my whole
(27:39):
life. And when life presentssomething of that magnitude, how
do I instead of allowing it tocrush and break me, how do I
maintain the perspective thatthis is an opportunity to
practice? How I want to be inthe world, what I believe about
(28:04):
myself? And obviously, you know,some days are better than
others. Again, it's, it's apractice, you know, it's not,
you're not practicing, if youyou're winning every time,
right, if it's always easy.
Yeah, you know, I know we havethe ability to, to shape
ourselves or create ourselves,it's like, you are the biggest
(28:27):
piece of art that you could everwork on. And, and I'm, we're
still working on I'm stillworking, and I guess what if
ever, I feel like I havearrived, like oh, now I know. Or
now. I'm like, hold on, like,something's gonna come and ask
(28:54):
more of me, or push me and I, tome, it's the that's connected to
whatever that thing is inexistence that wants us to
continue to evolve. And, and notjust plateau but to continue to
to climb or be activated in ourour pursuit of elevating
(29:20):
ourselves. And so yeah, I mean,losing. Losing my mother is
completely devastating, andstill is devastating. And such a
beautiful, beautiful opportunityfor me to go deeper in my
(29:44):
practice, and and sculpt myselfaccordingly. You know, it's
like, at times it feels like adeep cut, but I I think it's
more like a sculpting. And adeep cut. could be both. Yeah,
it is both. It is both.
(30:09):
Definitely.
Lily Werthan (30:10):
Yeah. And I never got to meet your mom. I've met
your adoptive mom a few times.
And she's delightful. But Inever got to meet your birth
mom. What I've heard, she justsounds like such a bright part
of your life and a reallyremarkable woman.
Jacob Gibson (30:26):
Yeah, she, she is.
She absolutely is. And so, somuch of who I am, I get from
her. And she continues to giveme, you know.
Lily Werthan (30:47):
I love that. Did she get to see lots of your
shows?
Jacob Gibson (30:50):
She did you know, she did. She got to see... She
was around for the first seasonof Greenleaf. And that was like,
of all the projects that I haddone so far, that was the the
one that had the most exposure,you know, it was the biggest
(31:10):
platform.
Lily Werthan (31:12):
Yeah, you have Oprah's name behind you, that
means something.
Jacob Gibson (31:15):
Yeah. And so, she was so excited. I mean, she, of
course was my first champion,you know, she, she saw it
before, or felt it beforeanybody. So yeah, it was very
much a dream come true for her.
And now to be able to experienceme like that, and a dream for me
(31:36):
to to be able to, to offer thatto her. And I know it, it
brought her so much peace justto see me on my way. I know so
much of the time, she justwanted to be by my side for all
these wonderful adventures andexperiences that I get to have.
(31:59):
And I know at least part of thetruth is that she does now, you
know. There's not a single thingthat she misses out on.
Lily Werthan (32:14):
I feel that way too. I get exactly what you're
saying. I love that phrase onyour way. Like, you know,
there's no arrival point oflike, I made it, you know, in
this in this tough career, butyou're on your way. I was
thinking about this the otherday of like, we're still really
young, you know, you, you havehad incredible success pretty
(32:36):
quickly after coming out ofschool. But at the same time, I
don't think that people realizehow many plays you've done and
how many short films and justthinking about that process that
you talked about of likeembodying somebodies experience
and stepping into this newcharacter to do that once sounds
(32:57):
nearly impossible to me. But todo that so many times and build
your way up to creating moremomentum for your success. Like
it's taken a lot.
Jacob Gibson (33:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I think, I mean, forall of us, there's, there's so
much growth and so much processthat, that takes place that
doesn't necessarily getpresented on the surface, you
know, like, every, every day,we're creating ourselves every
day where we're working towardssomething, whatever it is that
(33:31):
we're called towards, you know,it's, there's a process
involved. And I don't know thatthere is a path that we can
choose that is without effort,you know..
Lily Werthan (33:46):
Probably not a great path.
Jacob Gibson (33:48):
Yeah. Or, you know, or, or challenge, you
know, I like even if, even if Icould sit on the couch all day,
every day, even then there'sgoing to be some obstacle that
comes along with that choice aswell. Like, I don't think that
we can get away from having tobe activated having to, to work
(34:11):
in some capacity, or having toovercome obstacles or
challenges. You know, I had ateacher once she was asked the
class, she says, Does anyoneknow when you stopped growing?
And you know, people were like,oh, like, 18? Or someone's like,
oh, like your brain stopsdeveloping when you're 25? Or is
(34:33):
like after puberty, you know,and everyone had their own
answers. And she said, You don'tstop growing until you stop
breathing. And everyone's like,Oh, my God. Yeah. But that was a
really important moment for me,especially. I think we have
(34:54):
these moments where we, we feellike we know it all or we
understand it all. And again,something comes in completely
shakes us.
Lily Werthan (35:03):
Right? Like, okay, now it's time to be humbled.
Jacob Gibson (35:05):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and we have to keep going.
And that that was just ignitedin me that I can always be in
the process of learning. So Ithink I identify as a student
really of life, first andforemost, like, what is there to
(35:30):
be learned in this moment, orthrough this experience? And I
know, I'm a teacher as well, Ithink that for all of us, like,
you know, I'm a student, I'm ateacher, and I'm a healer,
whether to heal myself or toheal the world around me. But
being a student, and a teacherallows me to heal. You know,
(35:51):
it's like, all connected. Iknow, forever humans have been
learning through storytelling,whether it was around the fire
or, or whether it was someonebeing like, Hey, don't go over
there. I saw a bear over there.
Like, you know, and I thinkartists are storytellers, you
(36:14):
know, whether it's a painting ora song, or channeling what we
have experienced into this, thisartistic presentation. And then
the audience, you know, mighthave whatever experience with
it, but I think it just createsthe opportunity to, to learn or
(36:34):
to see yourself, you know, orlike someone watches a movie is
like, wow, that characterreminds me a lot of myself. And
while maybe seeing them gothrough that process, and come
out different, you know, maybe Ican do that for myself, or
someone in an art gallery islike, wow, like this painting
(36:56):
really looks like how I feel.
And then maybe that's like thefirst time that they can
acknowledge how they feel orfeel like, wow, I'm not alone in
how I feel. Because look, thereit is painted and in front of me
as well. And and I know thatthat that quality of not feeling
(37:20):
alone is really important for usall.
Lily Werthan (37:23):
Yeah, it also seems like we generally as
people are pretty stubborn aboutlearning new things. And if you
hear a lesson, like it's prettyhard to learn from that, like,
that's why there's all thesecliches that we hear all the
time. And we're like, Yeah,whatever. But it is a step
further to see that embodied insomebody's art. And to feel it
(37:44):
in a new way. I think most of usdo need to learn through feeling
.
Jacob Gibson (37:49):
Mm hmm. Yeah, I think it's, I know, it's, it's
really vulnerable andintimidating to admit that you
don't know something, or thatyou don't know at all, I guess
to imply that you have more tolearn will also be to
acknowledge that there'ssomething bigger going on than
(38:14):
what you currently understand orjust in general, there's
something more. And I know thatcan be really intimidating for
us, especially when life seemsto be a lot, just where we are
right now. So then it's likesomething comes along, and it's
like, oh, actually, there's alot more going on.
Lily Werthan (38:38):
it's it's a common insult to be like, well, they
just, you know, they don't haveit figured out yet.
Jacob Gibson (38:45):
Right, right.
Yeah. Or to admit that you'rewrong, you know, these are
really vulnerable places to be.
But there's nothing wrong withbeing vulnerable.
Lily Werthan (39:00):
Yeah, nothing wrong with being on your way.
Jacob Gibson (39:02):
Yeah. And again, just being in process. What a
wonderful thing. I'm like, ifthere's more to go than that
means I can still make a shiftin my life. Or, or I can, if
something's not working for me,I can, I can move. I can try
something new. I can trysomething else. You know, I
(39:23):
really feel like if we were, ifwe were meant to be still in
this life, we probably wouldhave been a tree. Yeah. And even
trees sway back and forth.
Lily Werthan (39:34):
It's like what you're talking about at the
beginning of Tai Chi and thelike movement of energy and
recognizing that that's healthyand right for us to be in
movement and to be shifting andchanging. Yeah, all the time.
Jacob Gibson (39:48):
Yeah, we need that.
Lily Werthan (39:51):
Something you said earlier, I think just really
clicked for me. That there is noeasy path...Rigight like there
are some that maybe are morefluid or more in line with the
status quo. And maybe the pathis a little bit more paved, but
there's no easy path, there'sgoing to be challenges along all
of them. And maybe it's moreabout choosing the challenging
(40:13):
path that feels worth it to you.
Jacob Gibson (40:15):
Yes. Or just just being able to stop and ask
yourself, what do I really want?
What do I what do I feel is isright, for me? And you know,
there's this grass is alwaysgreener type of thing, where I
have been around people thatlive in extreme affluence, and
(40:36):
like how, like, I wish I, youknow, you go to the house,
you're like, Man, this house isso great. And I'm like, Man,
this place sucks.
Lily Werthan (40:46):
I wish I had two pools!
Jacob Gibson (40:47):
Yeah, you know, it's like, and, you know, I feel
like, it's dangerous to like,compare ourselves. Because we
are, we're together, but we havea unique calling, or we have a
unique path and, and just to tryto be in love with where you are
at in your own journey in yourown process. And someone else
(41:12):
might look at your process andbe like, you have it so easy,
and never know the hardshipsthat you experience. You could
have all the money in the worldand be miserable. Or you could
have no money in the world andbe so happy. And I'm like, what
is what? What's the decidingfactor? I guess in this moment,
(41:32):
I just feel like it's a practiceof being able to really love
where you are in the presentmoment. And and then from that
loving place, then I'm able toreceive the little whispers that
tell me which direction to placemy foot next. You know, what,
(41:55):
what is right for me what is andwe're extremely capable and
adaptable. Animals. Yes, youknow, we're extremely resilient.
So I hope that some of the fearthat can be so paralyzing to so
many of us, can be quieted inthe belief of knowing that we
(42:19):
can adjust or we can realign,you know, I, my, my mistakes I
look back on, there's like someof the most important learning
moments for me. And so it'slike, if I stumble, if I trip
and fall, walking towards what Ifeel is right for myself, like,
(42:43):
even that gets love for me. LikeI can even wrap love around
those moments. And acknowledgeagain, it's just a part of the
process of getting tosomewhere...
Lily Werthan (42:56):
Going on your way.
Jacob Gibson (42:57):
Yeah. Being on you way.
Yeah, it's something like, thereisn't a single thing in your
life that you were afraid ofthat you haven't made it
thorugh.
(43:17):
Right, you've like overcome allthe hardest things so far. So
why the hell do you think youcan't overcome the things that
are in the future.
Right. It makes methink of, you know, I went
(43:40):
skydiving, which, to me, Iacknowledge is so illogical.
Lily Werthan (43:47):
It is an idiotic move. I've also been skydiving.
Jacob Gibson (43:50):
I'm like what! I just don't I just...and
terrifying, like, terrified ofheights. And like, what an
unnatural experience for a body,like a human body to just be
dropped out of an airplane,
Lily Werthan (44:03):
Right if there's a God, like, she probably didn't
want us to do this.
Jacob Gibson (44:08):
And so like, you know, I'm terrified of
this...terrified of thisconcept, and I'm like, I'd never
do it, I'd never do it. And thenof course, as life is apt to do
it, someone comes and asks me togo skydiving. And I'm like, oh
my god like, you know, I shouldprobably do this thing because
I'm absolutely terrified of it.
And you know, it was a wholespiritual experience, you know
(44:32):
coming face to face with thatintensity of fear, and
completely screaming... likescreaming so loud that, all you
could do is scream. But afterall that screaming then you're
floating, and then eventually,you come back to the ground.
Lily Werthan (44:57):
I was gonna say, I've seen I've seen pictures of
this skydiving expedition andyou look serene, you look like
you're having an amazing time.
Jacob Gibson (45:06):
And that was, again, just such a big metaphor
for me, like, all these thingsever that I'm so terrified of,
I'm gonna come to a point whereI'm really standing over them or
looking at them, or I'm face toface with them. And I'm going to
(45:27):
have to jump. And there mayabsolutely be some screaming
involved. But I will make itthrough that experience. And
this, this quality of floating,and the perspective that you
have, on the other side ofcoming that close to your fear
(45:53):
is like, it's just so expansive.
And you just, you come backdown, and then...and you
continue on, you know, it'slike, I knew I wasn't gonna die
skydiving.
Lily Werthan (46:10):
That's a good.
Well you did sign a waiver, soyou don't know for sure...
Jacob Gibson (46:14):
You know, there is a difference between like
trusting your gut in knowingthat something is dangerous.
Versus like, I'm just afraid ofthis thing, you know?
Lily Werthan (46:29):
Right, like letting fear control your
actions versus really listeningto an intuitive signal of like,
you shouldn't do this.
Jacob Gibson (46:37):
Yeah. And there have absolutely been times where
my guts like, Hey, Matt, youshouldn't go there, or it
shouldn't be here. And that's animportant voice to listen to, as
well. But the fear, like it canteach us so much like, why am I
afraid of this? What about thisam I so afraid of? And I guess,
(47:00):
like the ultimate fear for us,I'm sure is like death, you
know, the ultimate not knowing.
And that drives a lot of how wemove through life, a fear of
what happens when it all ends.
Lily Werthan (47:17):
Yeah, but like you were talking about before, if
you can take what is presentingitself in the energetic form of
fear, and shift that towardscuriosity or towards energy to
explore...
Jacob Gibson (47:29):
Exactly, exactly.
And if that's the ultimate fear,like the ultimate collective
fear, how can I use these othermoments, to practice what it
means to overcome fear? Like,I'm scared of heights, let me
practice going sky. And just asa muscle, just like to remind
(47:51):
myself that on the other side offear is something pretty
wonderful. And if I bring thatinto my life belief, then it
allows me to move morefearlessly. I mean, I guess, or
move more confidently. Feelinglike there's there's something
(48:12):
wonderful on the other side ofit. I don't know if that makes
sense.
Lily Werthan (48:19):
Definitely makes sense to me. Jake, you're
awesome. I'm so glad that youwere in town...I mean, that you
flew out specifically for this.
Jacob Gibson (48:28):
Thank you. Thank you for flying me out here.
Lily Werthan (48:30):
Yeah. Spread the word. I fly out my guests.
Jacob Gibson (48:35):
Yeah. Thank you so much.
Lily Werthan (48:36):
I honestly have like 1000 more things that I
wanted to talk to you about. Soto be repeated. If you're up for
it. Maybe I'll come through LAsometime.
Jacob Gibson (48:43):
That'd be great.
I'd love to sit down again. Andthank you so much. I'm so glad
that you are taking this thisleap. You know.
Lily Werthan (48:52):
Yeah. Jumping out of this airplane.
Jacob Gibson (48:54):
And that's, again, if we are if we are teachers to
each other, what an importantlesson for your life to be of
just being able to listen towhat your heart is calling you
to do at any moment. You know..
Lily Werthan (49:11):
Thank you. You really do bring a lot of light
and a lot of fun.
Jacob Gibson (49:15):
Well it's the same for you Lily. Real recognize
Lily Werthan (49:19):
I love that. What a great place to end.
real they say
Sign Off (49:31):
Thank you for listening to this episode of the
open exploration podcast. If youlike what you heard, the
absolute most helpful thing youcan do is to share the podcast
with a friend or on socialmedia. You can also donate in
the link under each episodedescription, or on our website
open exploration.org This showis produced by me Lily Werthan.
(49:53):
The voices that you'll hear atthe very end are my four and
five year old nephew and nieces.
Thank you to Paddington BearJohn sibh and the other unlisted
artists for freely sharing yourmusic that brings this podcast
to life. And to all of youlistening. Thank you love to you
all. And until next time, happyexploring. THANKS FOR LISTENING!
I think so often, quietly we see
(00:06):
things in ourselves or, or havea seed of an idea about
ourselves. And for whateverreason, we choose to turn away
from it or ignore it. You know,I guess it's like intimidating
to acknowledge the potentialthat we all have inside of
ourselves.
Intro (00:29):
Welcome to the open exploration Podcast. I'm on a
mission to connect with RuleBreakers, Dream Makers and all
around inspiring people toexplore the possibilities for
living a vibrant and honest lifeon my own terms.
Episode Intro (00:52):
Hello, everyone, I hope you're all doing well and
that you're finding some balanceand fun and rest during this
busy season. I recently had thejoy of sitting down with my
friend, actor and musician JacobGibson. We got to have this
conversation that just filled mewith energy and inspiration and
new ways of thinking about lifeand creativity and fear and art,
(01:13):
and I'm so excited to share withyou all. I've known Jake since
we were in high school and he isjust a grounded, happy, genuine
person, as you're about to hearfor yourself. You might actually
have seen Jake perform - he wasin a particularly bloody but
awesome episode of Grey'sAnatomy. He also played AJ in
the hit series Greenleaf, whichwas produced by - dare I named
(01:36):
drop, - the one and only OprahWinfrey. When we caught up in
Denver, Jake was about to startworking on a super secret, super
exciting project halfway acrossthe world. The internet at this
point is definitely burstingwith this news, and Jake is
already halfway across the worldstarting to record for this
project. But I am certainly notgoing to leak any intel. I can,
(01:59):
however, tell you with absoluteconfidence that Jake is on the
way to big and beautiful thingsin his life and career. A quick
sidebar, it has been such a joyto hear from you. Lots of you
have reached out on Instagramand Facebook. And I really
cherish these opportunities toconnect with you. So keep them
coming. If you want to send somelonger winded love or scathing
(02:20):
reviews, or if you're interestedin sharing your story on the
podcast or recommending a guestor sponsoring the show reached
out to Lily that's li l y atopen exploration.org. I'm always
interested in talking to greatpeople who have taken creative
or surprising paths to a lifethat they really love. And that
(02:41):
really fits them. So reach outif you have someone in mind.
Anyways, I will not make youwait any longer to hear from the
legend himself. Here is myconversation with the wonderful,
insightful, inspiring, JacobGibson.
Lily Werthan (03:10):
Jake, I'm so glad to get to sit down and talk to
you.
Jacob Gibson (03:12):
Me too.
Lily Werthan (03:13):
Thanks for coming out to Denver. Not for this
specifically. But for makingtime while you're here.
Jacob Gibson (03:17):
I came just for this.
Lily Werthan (03:18):
I knew you did.
Well, you're not the only one. Ithink people are flying out all
the time to come talk to me.
Jacob Gibson (03:23):
Yeah. I believe it.
Lily Werthan (03:25):
Yeah. Oh, man, when I was thinking about, who
do I want to talk to, for thisshow? And just to get wisdom and
insight. I was thinking aboutpeople who have taken alternate
paths or who have becomesuccessful in a way that is sort
of unique. And I was thinking,okay, acting, music,
performance, being creative.
Those are the quintessentialjobs where everybody when you
(03:48):
say, that's what I'm going todo. They're like, Oh,
that's...good luck... you know,like, the best answer you get
is, that's gonna be tough, butgood luck. And the worst one is
like, nobody makes it don't eventry. So, how did you choose
acting and performing and music?
And maybe more to the point,what is it in you that you were
(04:12):
like, You know what, yeah, it'shard. Not a lot of people make
it...but I'm going to?
Jacob Gibson (04:16):
Yeah, that's such an interesting question. And I I
constantly reflect on whathelped push me on this path or
in this direction. And its equalparts feeling called towards
(04:38):
something. And feeling likepushed you know, or sometimes I
describe it as like, I feel ahand in front of me that's
dragging me forward, and also ahand on my back that's, that's
pushing me onward. So, you know,music, music was my, my first
(05:05):
passion. I just remember as akid, I just always thought that
no one, no one heard music theway that I did, you know, I just
would catch different sounds ofdifferent things and and just
was in love, you know, I guessit just with the way it made me
(05:28):
feel or you know, it's like,sometimes notes can do things
that my words can't. So that'sdefinitely where it started just
just loving music and I tookpiano lessons when I was
younger, you know, my, myparents saw that in me and try
to foster that musical muscle inme. But like, I think most kids,
(05:53):
when your parents ask you orencourage you to do anything,
you start to resent it. So Idefinitely it became more of a
chore at a time and took a stepaway, at least from like, the
practice of the craft aroundmusic, and then came back to it
(06:13):
in my own time, you know, fellback in love with it in my own
time as, as it became more likea way for me to express myself
not just like a, something to belearned or something to be
mastered.
Lily Werthan (06:28):
Yeah, that's so interesting. Were you playing
music when you were in highschool?
Jacob Gibson (06:33):
No, not much. You know, I did, I did do some
piano. I wasn't singing much. Ofcourse, I had some friends that
convinced me to freestyle. Sothat was really, I think, when I
first started putting words andmusic together, as far as my own
(06:55):
expression, like, what can I dowith my words, as well. But then
I did start singing again, justreally falling in love with it.
And really just, it's verymedicinal for me as well, like,
you know, poetry or even justthe the poetry of the voice or
(07:16):
the the vocal cords, or theresonance or the sounds that
your body makes, I know can bevery therapeutic. And although I
didn't quite have the awarenessor understanding of how
medicinal therapeutic thesethings were to me at the time, I
realized that, again, I wasbeing pushed to fall into these
(07:39):
these practices, you know, sothat was interesting. And then
acting wise, you know, my, mymother always thought I was such
a performer. And admittedly, Iunderstand I was a bit of a
class clown. But I would hateperforming. I hated getting on
(08:00):
stage in front of people, eventhough I loved being the Joker,
you know, the guy that madeeverybody laugh, but she would
want me to do recitals. And itwould just like, paralyze me. I
remember, I would convince herto pay me I'm like, you know,
I'll do it if you gave me $10.
And that's what really broke meinto it.
Lily Werthan (08:26):
That's hilarious that's like, so the opposite of
what you'd expect, you know,you're like, there was this love
in you, but you're like, I needI need some money for this.
Extrinsic motivation, to like,get over my fear of this.
Jacob Gibson (08:42):
Just a little nudge. You know, I think so
often, quietly, we see things inourselves or, or have a seed of
an idea about ourselves. And forwhatever reason, we choose to
turn away from it or ignore it,you know, I guess it's like
(09:02):
intimidating to acknowledge thepotential that we all have
inside of ourselves. So I reallythink it's a great segue for me
to pause and give gratitude forthe community around me in my
life that that supported me orallowed me to, to acknowledge
(09:25):
these qualities in myself. Andthe possibilities in myself and
I know that not a lot of peoplehave such support in their
family or in their community ora lot of people that believe in
them. And I know that thatsometimes can be make or break
(09:45):
for for people's dreams.
Lily Werthan (09:47):
Yeah, if there's somebody to, like, nurture that
little spark in you or to, Iguess, allow you to listen to
that nudge.
Jacob Gibson (09:55):
Yeah. Or just tell you like, Hey, you can if you If
you really work, if you reallybelieve, you dedicate yourself,
you know, and, and I, again,I've just had such a supportive
community and family and I'm sofortunate for that,
Lily Werthan (10:17):
Do you still get that stage fright? Or did you
figure out a way around that?
Jacob Gibson (10:23):
You know, I am very deep in my my practices
acting performing in music and,and along that journey, I have
just come to understand energiesin new ways and how energy
manifests itself and you know,nervousness or anxiety around
(10:48):
being on stage, I know is just aform in which the energy is is
taking at that moment. And if Ican give myself a moment to
acknowledge the existence ofnervousness or anxiety, then
(11:09):
once I I acknowledge it, then Ican kind of break it down, and,
and repurpose it. So, what wasnervousness can be broken down
and repurposed into excitement,or was anxiety can be broken
(11:31):
down and fed into preparation.
So I do, I do acknowledge, stillthe times where I get
butterflies or, or nerves arisebefore I step on stage or before
the camera rolls, but I am ableto take that moment for myself
and connect with my breath orground myself in the moment and
(11:54):
allow the energy to move throughme and change into something a
little more useful for me at thetime.
Lily Werthan (12:10):
That's such a cool way to think about it. I feel
like that's sort of shifting inmy own head, too. Like nervous
doesn't necessarily mean bad.
Usually, it means that you care,and like you said, there's a lot
of energy around whatever you'redoing.
Jacob Gibson (12:22):
Yeah, when I was in school, one of our required
classes in this Acting Programwas, was Tai Chi.
Lily Werthan (12:31):
That's awesome.
Jacob Gibson (12:32):
Amazing, amazing.
So that's been something thatI've incorporated into my life
practice and my craft practicefor years now. But my Tai Chi
teacher was one of the firstpeople that really helped me
understand that emotions areenergy, and you know, energy,
emotion, she says, emotion. Andagain, just being able to work
(12:57):
with that acknowledgement of theexistence of energy in whatever
form it's taking. And in Tai Chispecifically, you know, you're
using breath and body movementto, to activate this qi energy.
And again, just that practicewas helpful in me being able to
(13:19):
break down whatever emotions I'mexperiencing, and allow it to
move through me and becomesomething else, you know, and
not, not get caught dwelling ina certain emotion. You know. I
know, we have a tendency to, todwell, and on all sides of the
(13:39):
spectrum, you know, like, when,when you're sad, like, you
really just want to be sad.
Lily Werthan (13:47):
And feel like well, I guess I'm sad forever
now. I guess this is just me.
Jacob Gibson (13:50):
Yeah. And same with happiness. Like when you're
really joyful and happy. That'swhat you want to hold on to
forever and the anxiety of whathappens when this goes away, or
when this feeling goes away. Soyeah, I guess just again,
through Tai Chi, or many otherpractices, just being able to
(14:11):
allow it to move through me inenergies moving so to try to
hold on to a certain feeling ora certain energy without
allowing it to move ortransform. It's like, stagnant
water. It's like the movement iswhat allows us to, to stay
(14:32):
fresh.
Lily Werthan (14:33):
That makes so much sense to me. I don't know very
much about tai chi, but itstrikes me as pretty surprising
that that was a required class.
Do you know why that was?
Jacob Gibson (14:43):
And that, that me too, you know, I didn't I had no
previous experience or exposureto Tai Chi besides like,
peripherally in movies or, orwhatever. But I know for acting,
specifically acting it'sobviously, a full body
experience, at least the way Ihave come to understand it, and
(15:08):
requires a connection to yourbreath and a connection to your
body as well as yourimagination. And tight chi, for
me, just this, this deepconnection to breath, of course,
first, and then allowingmovement of energy connection to
(15:32):
body, being able to bring in acertain energy that wasn't there
before, or being able to releasea certain energy that is in your
system. And that, that, to me,is really important for trying
to take on a character, tryingto take on a story, you know,
(15:55):
you really have to clear outyour own story, make room in
yourself to receive somethingnew, or make room in yourself
to, to experience something thatyou might not have experienced
in your life, previously, andand activate that energy in a
(16:17):
certain way. Like, if I'm not,if I don't identify as an angry
person, how? How am I going to?
How am I going to find anger?
You know, of course, you know, Iuse my imagination, but if I
don't connect that to breath,then anger won't live,
truthfully, in my, in my system,and so I can I can use breath
(16:41):
to, you know, breathe on acertain circumstance, like,
what, what is this characterexperiencing right now? What
does it feel like to reallybreathe in that experience? And
then how does that sit in mybody to you know, we hold
(17:03):
emotion in our body, when youget angry, your shoulders tense,
you know, when you're scaredyou, your breath is shallow. And
so these practices to maintainthe body as, as the instrument
for performer and actor are, inmy opinion, so important for
(17:25):
sustainability? Or, you know,for instance, after I I play a
character who's extremely heavyor in a lot of pain, how do I go
about cleansing my system ofthat, so that I can return to
the Jacob state? You know, or towhat, what is home base for me.
(17:46):
And I think that, at least in myopinion, is something that has
been brushed over in acting is,how do we come back? We just are
expected to go there. But how dowe return?
Lily Werthan (18:02):
Right. You stretch yourself to like the extremes of
human experience and inhabitthis character that's not you,
and then how do you come back toyourself?
Jacob Gibson (18:09):
Yeah. So Tai Chi, physical practices and you know,
it might be different for forevery person, but for me, Tai
Chi was, is so grounding andjust allows me to, again, just
tap into my breath and, and apractice that has been going on
(18:32):
for 1000s of years. And that'sas pretty exciting to me just
feel like I can move my handsin, in a in a certain way and
know that millions of peoplehave moved in similar ways with
similar qualities of breath and,
Lily Werthan (18:52):
And maybe felt similar things like the shared
human experience in thatmovement. And in that mindset.
Jacob Gibson (18:57):
Yes, exactly.
Lily Werthan (18:59):
I've never thought so deeply about this, since
acting was never my form ofexpression. But it does seem
like such a spiritual way ofconnecting with a human
experience. And like you weresaying that you feel physically
in your body that when you feelangry, you tense your shoulders
and so that's something that youcan pull into, like your
(19:19):
practice of acting, but alsoyour practice of embodying this
human experience. That is, iswild, I think that your whole
career is such a and I don'tknow if you agree with me, but
it seems like such a spiritualpractice and like a study of
what it is to be human.
Jacob Gibson (19:39):
Yeah, absolutely.
I agree and feel like that ispart of why I don't know if I
have much choice in doingsomething else, because it's,
you know, of course, you, youlearn so much about yourself
your own emotional awareness,your body, your own mind. And
(20:02):
then, and then you also take onlives that are outside of
yourself. And it has definitelybeen extremely opening for me to
really just be able to step intosomeone else's shoes. I
(20:23):
acknowledge in myself, I wasborn a very empathic person, you
know, I'm one of the people thatlike, you're telling me a sad
story, and now I'm crying. Okay,don't worry, I'm fine. Like you
go. Yeah, I learned I learned somuch about just the
(20:43):
expansiveness of the humanexperience. And, and, and also
how deeply connected we all are,you know, I think at times that
we get tricked into feeling likewe're so far away from each
other. And it's, it's soilluminating for me to step into
a character and then find bitsof myself, or find bits of
(21:08):
someone that I know. Or am I Oh,wow, we're like, Wow, maybe I
would have been like this, hadmy circumstances been a bit
different. It really makes mesee people so lovingly, or
without judgment, you know? And,and listening, you know, I know
(21:30):
so much of acting is listening,that that is something that I
take, obviously, outside of justthe craft, but how do I, how can
I really listen to someone andthe experience or, you know, Im
a ceral people watcher. So I'mlike, I listen with my eyes, and
(21:52):
not just my ears, I'm like,looking at how this person is
standing and what their postureis like, and I'm like, Oh, wow,
like, okay, like, they must worka lot with their hands or, or,
you know, or they're carrying alot in their chest, or, or, Oh,
god, look at all that tension intheir hips.
Lily Werthan (22:14):
Imagining somebody's story by seeing the
way that they sort of arepresenting themselves to the
world, or even what they're nottrying to present. But what's
there, right?
Jacob Gibson (22:23):
Or how loud does this person talk? How quiet this
person talk? You know, it'slike, of course, my imagination
creates a whole narrativesaround people that I've never
even talked to you?
Lily Werthan (22:34):
Well, I mean, that seems like such an important
practice in the work that youdo, too. We, a bunch of our
friends were laughing at onepoint of like, the Jake that we
know, and like AJ, yourcharacter and Greenleaf, or some
of the other characters thatyou've played, they could not be
more different people. Like youare this person who is just
beaming light. And thesecharacters have been through
(22:56):
some serious shit and like, havethis serious heaviness to them.
And so I imagine so much of thatpractice is thinking about,
like, what might their story be,or, you know, how would they
carry themselves in the world?
Knowing what they've beenthrough?
Jacob Gibson (23:10):
Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. I
definitely get called to playsome some very heavy characters.
And, you know, I learn a lotfrom stepping into these, these
stories that are at timesdrastically different from what
I have experienced in my, mylife so far. But I feel so
(23:35):
privileged and honored to be thevoice for that, knowing that I
do feel like there's a light inme. And how can I step into
these characters and find a wayto let a bit of that light
become present even in theheaviest of circumstances. And,
(24:01):
and there's this, there's thisanalogy, that, that we're born a
bowl of light, and someone comesand puts a rock in our bowl, or
we put a rock in our bowl. Andthis happens all over and over
again. And at some point,there's so many rocks in the
(24:24):
bowl, that you can barely seethe light at the bottom. And
how, you know, the analogie'slike how can we go about
removing the rocks out of ourbowl so that the light can can
shine through and I very muchfeel that for, for the
(24:44):
characters I play or even justthe heavier or seemingly dark,
darker people that are in theworld, who carry, you know,
quote, unquote, a dark energy.
To me, it's just like wow, likeHow many rocks has this person
put in their bowl?
Lily Werthan (25:04):
And how can I like dig deeper to see what's real
underneath?
Jacob Gibson (25:08):
Yeah, or can I maintain the awareness that
underneath all that, there isthis wonderful, illuminating
source of light. You know, and,and I haven't... I haven't
looked into many newborns eyesand been like this is evil. You
(25:31):
know, so I, again I with thecharacters, you know, I can see
on on the page or see theactions that this character is
taking that there's someheaviness going on. And I'm
like, Okay, how do I identifywhat are the rocks that may have
been placed into this person'sexperience. And again, just as a
(25:53):
spiritual practice or lifepractice trying to see past all
all the rocks, or all the allthe things that have been put on
us or that we have put onourselves?
Lily Werthan (26:06):
Well, you and I both have been very blessed to
to grow up with so much support.
And in situations where we, youknow, we really didn't have so
many of those rocks placed inour bowls. But when I think
about you, and what I do know ofyour story, it seems like you
also are somebody who, whenfaced with really difficult
experiences that could be rocks,and could darken your light,
(26:28):
that you don't live it that way.
You know, like, I know, we havethe shared experience that we
both lost our moms within thelast couple years. That that's
something that could be a hugeand darkening rock. And it seems
to me that it's only deepenedyour ability to shine and to
(26:50):
feel on a different level.
Jacob Gibson (26:52):
Yeah. I mean, yeah. It's called a spiritual
practice. And I very muchidentify it as such as, as being
a practice. And, and it's like,you know, you don't go to the
(27:17):
gym, and you just start benchpressing, like 200 pounds, you
maybe just have to start withdoing pushups, or maybe you just
have to start with the bar. Andso I acknowledge that there is a
certain muscle in me that hasbeen strengthening my whole
(27:39):
life. And when life presentssomething of that magnitude, how
do I instead of allowing it tocrush and break me, how do I
maintain the perspective thatthis is an opportunity to
practice? How I want to be inthe world, what I believe about
(28:04):
myself? And obviously, you know,some days are better than
others. Again, it's, it's apractice, you know, it's not,
you're not practicing, if youyou're winning every time,
right, if it's always easy.
Yeah, you know, I know we havethe ability to, to shape
ourselves or create ourselves,it's like, you are the biggest
(28:27):
piece of art that you could everwork on. And, and I'm, we're
still working on I'm stillworking, and I guess what if
ever, I feel like I havearrived, like oh, now I know. Or
now. I'm like, hold on, like,something's gonna come and ask
(28:54):
more of me, or push me and I, tome, it's the that's connected to
whatever that thing is inexistence that wants us to
continue to evolve. And, and notjust plateau but to continue to
to climb or be activated in ourour pursuit of elevating
(29:20):
ourselves. And so yeah, I mean,losing. Losing my mother is
completely devastating, andstill is devastating. And such a
beautiful, beautiful opportunityfor me to go deeper in my
(29:44):
practice, and and sculpt myselfaccordingly. You know, it's
like, at times it feels like adeep cut, but I I think it's
more like a sculpting. And adeep cut. could be both. Yeah,
it is both. It is both.
(30:09):
Definitely.
Lily Werthan (30:10):
Yeah. And I never got to meet your mom. I've met
your adoptive mom a few times.
And she's delightful. But Inever got to meet your birth
mom. What I've heard, she justsounds like such a bright part
of your life and a reallyremarkable woman.
Jacob Gibson (30:26):
Yeah, she, she is.
She absolutely is. And so, somuch of who I am, I get from
her. And she continues to giveme, you know.
Lily Werthan (30:47):
I love that. Did she get to see lots of your
shows?
Jacob Gibson (30:50):
She did you know, she did. She got to see... She
was around for the first seasonof Greenleaf. And that was like,
of all the projects that I haddone so far, that was the the
one that had the most exposure,you know, it was the biggest
(31:10):
platform.
Lily Werthan (31:12):
Yeah, you have Oprah's name behind you, that
means something.
Jacob Gibson (31:15):
Yeah. And so, she was so excited. I mean, she, of
course was my first champion,you know, she, she saw it
before, or felt it beforeanybody. So yeah, it was very
much a dream come true for her.
And now to be able to experienceme like that, and a dream for me
(31:36):
to to be able to, to offer thatto her. And I know it, it
brought her so much peace justto see me on my way. I know so
much of the time, she justwanted to be by my side for all
these wonderful adventures andexperiences that I get to have.
(31:59):
And I know at least part of thetruth is that she does now, you
know. There's not a single thingthat she misses out on.
Lily Werthan (32:14):
I feel that way too. I get exactly what you're
saying. I love that phrase onyour way. Like, you know,
there's no arrival point oflike, I made it, you know, in
this in this tough career, butyou're on your way. I was
thinking about this the otherday of like, we're still really
young, you know, you, you havehad incredible success pretty
(32:36):
quickly after coming out ofschool. But at the same time, I
don't think that people realizehow many plays you've done and
how many short films and justthinking about that process that
you talked about of likeembodying somebodies experience
and stepping into this newcharacter to do that once sounds
(32:57):
nearly impossible to me. But todo that so many times and build
your way up to creating moremomentum for your success. Like
it's taken a lot.
Jacob Gibson (33:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I think, I mean, forall of us, there's, there's so
much growth and so much processthat, that takes place that
doesn't necessarily getpresented on the surface, you
know, like, every, every day,we're creating ourselves every
day where we're working towardssomething, whatever it is that
(33:31):
we're called towards, you know,it's, there's a process
involved. And I don't know thatthere is a path that we can
choose that is without effort,you know..
Lily Werthan (33:46):
Probably not a great path.
Jacob Gibson (33:48):
Yeah. Or, you know, or, or challenge, you
know, I like even if, even if Icould sit on the couch all day,
every day, even then there'sgoing to be some obstacle that
comes along with that choice aswell. Like, I don't think that
we can get away from having tobe activated having to, to work
(34:11):
in some capacity, or having toovercome obstacles or
challenges. You know, I had ateacher once she was asked the
class, she says, Does anyoneknow when you stopped growing?
And you know, people were like,oh, like, 18? Or someone's like,
oh, like your brain stopsdeveloping when you're 25? Or is
(34:33):
like after puberty, you know,and everyone had their own
answers. And she said, You don'tstop growing until you stop
breathing. And everyone's like,Oh, my God. Yeah. But that was a
really important moment for me,especially. I think we have
(34:54):
these moments where we, we feellike we know it all or we
understand it all. And again,something comes in completely
shakes us.
Lily Werthan (35:03):
Right? Like, okay, now it's time to be humbled.
Jacob Gibson (35:05):
Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and we have to keep going.
And that that was just ignitedin me that I can always be in
the process of learning. So Ithink I identify as a student
really of life, first andforemost, like, what is there to
(35:30):
be learned in this moment, orthrough this experience? And I
know, I'm a teacher as well, Ithink that for all of us, like,
you know, I'm a student, I'm ateacher, and I'm a healer,
whether to heal myself or toheal the world around me. But
being a student, and a teacherallows me to heal. You know,
(35:51):
it's like, all connected. Iknow, forever humans have been
learning through storytelling,whether it was around the fire
or, or whether it was someonebeing like, Hey, don't go over
there. I saw a bear over there.
Like, you know, and I thinkartists are storytellers, you
(36:14):
know, whether it's a painting ora song, or channeling what we
have experienced into this, thisartistic presentation. And then
the audience, you know, mighthave whatever experience with
it, but I think it just createsthe opportunity to, to learn or
(36:34):
to see yourself, you know, orlike someone watches a movie is
like, wow, that characterreminds me a lot of myself. And
while maybe seeing them gothrough that process, and come
out different, you know, maybe Ican do that for myself, or
someone in an art gallery islike, wow, like this painting
(36:56):
really looks like how I feel.
And then maybe that's like thefirst time that they can
acknowledge how they feel orfeel like, wow, I'm not alone in
how I feel. Because look, thereit is painted and in front of me
as well. And and I know thatthat that quality of not feeling
(37:20):
alone is really important for usall.
Lily Werthan (37:23):
Yeah, it also seems like we generally as
people are pretty stubborn aboutlearning new things. And if you
hear a lesson, like it's prettyhard to learn from that, like,
that's why there's all thesecliches that we hear all the
time. And we're like, Yeah,whatever. But it is a step
further to see that embodied insomebody's art. And to feel it
(37:44):
in a new way. I think most of usdo need to learn through feeling
.
Jacob Gibson (37:49):
Mm hmm. Yeah, I think it's, I know, it's, it's
really vulnerable andintimidating to admit that you
don't know something, or thatyou don't know at all, I guess
to imply that you have more tolearn will also be to
acknowledge that there'ssomething bigger going on than
(38:14):
what you currently understand orjust in general, there's
something more. And I know thatcan be really intimidating for
us, especially when life seemsto be a lot, just where we are
right now. So then it's likesomething comes along, and it's
like, oh, actually, there's alot more going on.
Lily Werthan (38:38):
it's it's a common insult to be like, well, they
just, you know, they don't haveit figured out yet.
Jacob Gibson (38:45):
Right, right.
Yeah. Or to admit that you'rewrong, you know, these are
really vulnerable places to be.
But there's nothing wrong withbeing vulnerable.
Lily Werthan (39:00):
Yeah, nothing wrong with being on your way.
Jacob Gibson (39:02):
Yeah. And again, just being in process. What a
wonderful thing. I'm like, ifthere's more to go than that
means I can still make a shiftin my life. Or, or I can, if
something's not working for me,I can, I can move. I can try
something new. I can trysomething else. You know, I
(39:23):
really feel like if we were, ifwe were meant to be still in
this life, we probably wouldhave been a tree. Yeah. And even
trees sway back and forth.
Lily Werthan (39:34):
It's like what you're talking about at the
beginning of Tai Chi and thelike movement of energy and
recognizing that that's healthyand right for us to be in
movement and to be shifting andchanging. Yeah, all the time.
Jacob Gibson (39:48):
Yeah, we need that.
Lily Werthan (39:51):
Something you said earlier, I think just really
clicked for me. That there is noeasy path...Rigight like there
are some that maybe are morefluid or more in line with the
status quo. And maybe the pathis a little bit more paved, but
there's no easy path, there'sgoing to be challenges along all
of them. And maybe it's moreabout choosing the challenging
(40:13):
path that feels worth it to you.
Jacob Gibson (40:15):
Yes. Or just just being able to stop and ask
yourself, what do I really want?
What do I what do I feel is isright, for me? And you know,
there's this grass is alwaysgreener type of thing, where I
have been around people thatlive in extreme affluence, and
(40:36):
like how, like, I wish I, youknow, you go to the house,
you're like, Man, this house isso great. And I'm like, Man,
this place sucks.
Lily Werthan (40:46):
I wish I had two pools!
Jacob Gibson (40:47):
Yeah, you know, it's like, and, you know, I feel
like, it's dangerous to like,compare ourselves. Because we
are, we're together, but we havea unique calling, or we have a
unique path and, and just to tryto be in love with where you are
at in your own journey in yourown process. And someone else
(41:12):
might look at your process andbe like, you have it so easy,
and never know the hardshipsthat you experience. You could
have all the money in the worldand be miserable. Or you could
have no money in the world andbe so happy. And I'm like, what
is what? What's the decidingfactor? I guess in this moment,
(41:32):
I just feel like it's a practiceof being able to really love
where you are in the presentmoment. And and then from that
loving place, then I'm able toreceive the little whispers that
tell me which direction to placemy foot next. You know, what,
(41:55):
what is right for me what is andwe're extremely capable and
adaptable. Animals. Yes, youknow, we're extremely resilient.
So I hope that some of the fearthat can be so paralyzing to so
many of us, can be quieted inthe belief of knowing that we
(42:19):
can adjust or we can realign,you know, I, my, my mistakes I
look back on, there's like someof the most important learning
moments for me. And so it'slike, if I stumble, if I trip
and fall, walking towards what Ifeel is right for myself, like,
(42:43):
even that gets love for me. LikeI can even wrap love around
those moments. And acknowledgeagain, it's just a part of the
process of getting tosomewhere...
Lily Werthan (42:56):
Going on your way.
Jacob Gibson (42:57):
Yeah. Being on you way.
Yeah, it's something like, thereisn't a single thing in your
life that you were afraid ofthat you haven't made it
thorugh.
(43:17):
Right, you've like overcome allthe hardest things so far. So
why the hell do you think youcan't overcome the things that
are in the future.
Right. It makes methink of, you know, I went
(43:40):
skydiving, which, to me, Iacknowledge is so illogical.
Lily Werthan (43:47):
It is an idiotic move. I've also been skydiving.
Jacob Gibson (43:50):
I'm like what! I just don't I just...and
terrifying, like, terrified ofheights. And like, what an
unnatural experience for a body,like a human body to just be
dropped out of an airplane,
Lily Werthan (44:03):
Right if there's a God, like, she probably didn't
want us to do this.
Jacob Gibson (44:08):
And so like, you know, I'm terrified of
this...terrified of thisconcept, and I'm like, I'd never
do it, I'd never do it. And thenof course, as life is apt to do
it, someone comes and asks me togo skydiving. And I'm like, oh
my god like, you know, I shouldprobably do this thing because
I'm absolutely terrified of it.
And you know, it was a wholespiritual experience, you know
(44:32):
coming face to face with thatintensity of fear, and
completely screaming... likescreaming so loud that, all you
could do is scream. But afterall that screaming then you're
floating, and then eventually,you come back to the ground.
Lily Werthan (44:57):
I was gonna say, I've seen I've seen pictures of
this skydiving expedition andyou look serene, you look like
you're having an amazing time.
Jacob Gibson (45:06):
And that was, again, just such a big metaphor
for me, like, all these thingsever that I'm so terrified of,
I'm gonna come to a point whereI'm really standing over them or
looking at them, or I'm face toface with them. And I'm going to
(45:27):
have to jump. And there mayabsolutely be some screaming
involved. But I will make itthrough that experience. And
this, this quality of floating,and the perspective that you
have, on the other side ofcoming that close to your fear
(45:53):
is like, it's just so expansive.
And you just, you come backdown, and then...and you
continue on, you know, it'slike, I knew I wasn't gonna die
skydiving.
Lily Werthan (46:10):
That's a good.
Well you did sign a waiver, soyou don't know for sure...
Jacob Gibson (46:14):
You know, there is a difference between like
trusting your gut in knowingthat something is dangerous.
Versus like, I'm just afraid ofthis thing, you know?
Lily Werthan (46:29):
Right, like letting fear control your
actions versus really listeningto an intuitive signal of like,
you shouldn't do this.
Jacob Gibson (46:37):
Yeah. And there have absolutely been times where
my guts like, Hey, Matt, youshouldn't go there, or it
shouldn't be here. And that's animportant voice to listen to, as
well. But the fear, like it canteach us so much like, why am I
afraid of this? What about thisam I so afraid of? And I guess,
(47:00):
like the ultimate fear for us,I'm sure is like death, you
know, the ultimate not knowing.
And that drives a lot of how wemove through life, a fear of
what happens when it all ends.
Lily Werthan (47:17):
Yeah, but like you were talking about before, if
you can take what is presentingitself in the energetic form of
fear, and shift that towardscuriosity or towards energy to
explore...
Jacob Gibson (47:29):
Exactly, exactly.
And if that's the ultimate fear,like the ultimate collective
fear, how can I use these othermoments, to practice what it
means to overcome fear? Like,I'm scared of heights, let me
practice going sky. And just asa muscle, just like to remind
(47:51):
myself that on the other side offear is something pretty
wonderful. And if I bring thatinto my life belief, then it
allows me to move morefearlessly. I mean, I guess, or
move more confidently. Feelinglike there's there's something
(48:12):
wonderful on the other side ofit. I don't know if that makes
sense.
Lily Werthan (48:19):
Definitely makes sense to me. Jake, you're
awesome. I'm so glad that youwere in town...I mean, that you
flew out specifically for this.
Jacob Gibson (48:28):
Thank you. Thank you for flying me out here.
Lily Werthan (48:30):
Yeah. Spread the word. I fly out my guests.
Jacob Gibson (48:35):
Yeah. Thank you so much.
Lily Werthan (48:36):
I honestly have like 1000 more things that I
wanted to talk to you about. Soto be repeated. If you're up for
it. Maybe I'll come through LAsometime.
Jacob Gibson (48:43):
That'd be great.
I'd love to sit down again. Andthank you so much. I'm so glad
that you are taking this thisleap. You know.
Lily Werthan (48:52):
Yeah. Jumping out of this airplane.
Jacob Gibson (48:54):
And that's, again, if we are if we are teachers to
each other, what an importantlesson for your life to be of
just being able to listen towhat your heart is calling you
to do at any moment. You know..
Lily Werthan (49:11):
Thank you. You really do bring a lot of light
and a lot of fun.
Jacob Gibson (49:15):
Well it's the same for you Lily. Real recognize
Lily Werthan (49:19):
I love that. What a great place to end.
real they say
Sign Off (49:31):
Thank you for listening to this episode of the
open exploration podcast. If youlike what you heard, the
absolute most helpful thing youcan do is to share the podcast
with a friend or on socialmedia. You can also donate in
the link under each episodedescription, or on our website
open exploration.org This showis produced by me Lily Werthan.
(49:53):
The voices that you'll hear atthe very end are my four and
five year old nephew and nieces.
Thank you to Paddington BearJohn sibh and the other unlisted
artists for freely sharing yourmusic that brings this podcast
to life. And to all of youlistening. Thank you love to you
all. And until next time, happyexploring. THANKS FOR LISTENING!
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