June 27, 2025 • 18 mins
The deep latch is the cornerstone of successful breastfeeding, affecting everything from milk transfer to nipple comfort and baby's weight gain. Angie Rosier shares expertise from her dual role as a doula and lactation consultant, offering practical techniques to improve breastfeeding outcomes.
• Visual signs of a deep latch include pulsating movement by the baby's temple, full jaw movement, and a wide mouth opening of about 140 degrees
• Proper latch should not cause prolonged pain or nipple damage - these are signs adjustment is needed
• Keeping baby remarkably close to the breast helps maintain a deep latch
• Using a rolled blanket under mother's wrist provides support to maintain positioning
• "Threading" technique helps deepen latch by pushing more breast tissue into baby's mouth
• The "chin pull" technique can widen baby's gape while they remain latched
• Most latch problems can be improved without constant relatching, which frustrates babies
• When basic techniques don't solve issues, deeper assessment of oral anatomy may be needed
• Support is available through hospital lactation consultants and private practice consultants
• Make a connection with someone you love today - you never know what difference it will make
Please make a connection with someone you love today. You never know what that will bring.
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Show Credits
Host: Angie Rosier
Music: Michael Hicks
Photographer: Toni Walker
Episode Artwork: Nick Greenwood
Producer: Gillian Rosier Frampton
Voiceover: Ryan Parker
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Ordinary Doula Podcast with
Angie Rozier, hosted by BirthLearning, where we help prepare
folks for labor and birth withexpertise coming from 20 years
of experience in a busy doulapractice Helping thousands of
people prepare for labor,providing essential knowledge
(00:38):
and tools for positive andempowering birth experiences.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Hi, my name is Angie Rozier.
I'm your host of the OrdinaryDoula podcast and we're glad you
could be with us today.
We're doing another episodethat has kind of a lactation
slant on it, which can be veryimportant.
So I work not only as a birthdoula, postpartum doula, but a
lactation consultant as well, soI get to see people in the
hospital.
I work in a couple of differentlocal hospitals, in lactation
(01:10):
and privately as well.
I love both of those roles andthey are so very different from
each other.
So when I help people in thehospital it's sometimes within
minutes after the baby's born.
You know day one, day two, daythree, however long they are in
the hospital, get to see them atthat point, help with what's
going on there.
And then I also have a privatepractice and see people in their
(01:33):
homes after they get home,whether that baby's four days
old, four weeks old.
Sometimes I see babies that aretwo or three months old for the
first time and the challenges,the things that they face, the
experiences they're having arevery different in both of those
realms and I love both of them.
So in the beginning you know wehaven't, we don't know all of
(01:53):
the challenges yet in thebeginning and some challenges
crop up later, some come upright away, but I would
encourage you to have someresources in your back pocket so
know what to do if you havequestions about lactation.
We have, you know, this wholenew focus.
As soon as that baby's born,almost everything focuses to
feeding the baby.
There's a lot of other thingsgoing on as far as, like,
(02:16):
recovery from birth, taking careof mom, things like that, but
the main focus oftentimes is onfeeding that baby, because it's
something that happensfrequently, right Like every
couple of hours actually.
So I want to talk today aboutthe baby's latch.
So when the latch right is howthe breast matches up with, or
how the mouth of the baby'smouth matches up with the breast
(02:38):
, and what we the terminology wetalk about in a latch is a deep
latch.
So a lot of the challenges orthe successes about
breastfeeding have to do withthe latch.
Like, how is that babyattaching to the breast?
What kind of support is thebaby getting in doing that?
Some babies need a whole lot ofsupport, like literally right,
(03:00):
like head support, neck support,keeping that mouth on the
nipple.
Some breasts need a lot ofsupport as far as holding them
up so that the baby can staylatched.
If we don't have a great latch,we could have problems.
We could have transfer problems, where the baby's not getting
enough as far as volume.
We could have nipple or breastchallenges where the mom is
(03:21):
having damaged nipples or havinga whole lot of pain that she's
experiencing which, as you canimagine, creates a huge
challenge if we're breastfeedingevery two or three hours.
So the latch is key.
It's one of the most keycomponents of the breastfeeding
relationship.
That has to do with supplyright, which has to do with
weight gains, which has to dowith, you know, a lot of things.
(03:44):
Breastfeeding is an anatomymatchup.
We're matching up the mom'sanatomy, her nipple, her breast
and her milk supply, which wedon't maybe always know about
right in the beginning how itwill be, and we're matching it
up with that baby's mouth, theinternal and external structures
of that baby's mouth, which wedidn't meet until they were born
right.
So as we match those things up,sometimes the anatomy might
(04:06):
cause some hurdles, butsometimes the anatomy challenges
can be overcome by a good and adeep latch.
So in this episode I want todiscuss what a deep latch is
like.
There are a couple of thingsyou can look for, like visually
you can see with your own eyeswhen a baby has a deep latch.
There are some things you canfeel, like sense on own eyes
when a baby has a deep latch.
(04:26):
There are some things you canfeel, um, like sense on the
breast when a baby has a deeplatch and um, and then there's
some small adjustments to make,and I do it all the time for
people, as I'm watching them,like, oh, let's make this small
adjustment so that that baby canget a deeper latch.
And a lot of people you knowsay, yeah, breastfeeding's going
pretty well, kind of hurts, orkind of this or that.
(04:46):
I have questions about this orthat where, so many times just
having somebody lay eyes onwhether that's in the hospital.
If you have lactationconsultants available, I
encourage you to talk to them.
Start off strong, start offdoing things as well as you can
to avoid some problems down theroad.
But sometimes just minor littleadjustments, little tweaks,
(05:08):
little support here, littleshift there makes all the
difference in the world, and ifyou don't know, you don't know
right, and so reach out and getthat support that you need.
Okay, so a deep latch.
What we look for on a deep latchis when the baby is on the
breast and sucking right.
We have to kind of have suckinggoing on to be able to see this
.
But we will see a pulsatingmovement, kind of right in front
(05:31):
of the baby's ear, where theirtemple is.
So as baby's sucking mom, youcan feel the baby sucking
usually, and then others.
We can feel the baby suckingusually and then others we can
see the baby sucking.
So there'll be kind of a pump,pump, pump, pump, whatever the
cadence of the sucking is right.
So you'll kind of see apulsating in front of the baby's
ear.
If we are getting some movementand there's really a lot of
(05:52):
fast movement but there's notpulsating by the baby's ear,
that baby might not be on verydeep.
We might kind of have a shallowlatch.
Another thing we look for is jawmovement.
So that whole jaw should kindof be moving.
We want the baby's jaw whichtravels up into their ear that's
why we're seeing it on the ear,in front of their ear, on their
temple that whole jaw shouldkind of be involved in a long
(06:12):
pulling, suck motion.
What we don't want to see iswhat we call dimpling.
So if a lot of the movement isright by the baby's lips, so
right where a dimple often isright, and this doesn't.
If your baby has a dimpledoesn't mean they're going to be
doing dimpling by any means.
But if we see dimpling, thatmeans the baby has a pretty
shallow suck, almost like kissylips right, and so if they have
(06:34):
kissy or fish lips that aren'tbig and wide, then they're going
to have some dimpling and we'llsee the more of the movement in
the cheek, not in the jaw andby the ear.
So that's one thing to look for.
Another thing to look for is thegape or the opening of the
baby's mouth.
So we want that baby's mouth tobe very wide open.
So we all know what a 90 degreeangle looks like.
(06:56):
Right, it's like a square.
So there's a 90 degree angle.
We want the baby's gape to belike 140 degrees, really wide.
So I like to take my hand toshow people.
So, if you like, stretch yourthumb and your hands as wide as
you can.
That's like 140 degrees.
Baby's mouth should be verywide open.
If we're seeing a very smallangle 90 degrees or less, what I
(07:21):
call a triangle, right, so thecorner of that baby's mouth is
making a little tiny trianglethat you can see.
Then that baby is prettyshallow and sometimes we can't
see that angle very well.
Why?
Because there's a breast in theway.
So some people have very soft,supple, large breasts.
They're going to just envelopthe baby's head.
So kind of pull back the breastso that you can see.
I like to let a baby do severalsucks before I check this and
(07:45):
I'll just gently pull the breastback.
The mom can do this.
A partner can help with this Ifmom's hands are busy, because a
lot of times mom has a hand onthe baby's head, hand on the
breast.
She does not have three or fourhands.
She needs them, but other handscan be pretty helpful.
So maybe someone else kind ofpulls back that breast tissue
gently.
Let the baby get a good rhythmfirst, and do it gently so that
(08:07):
we're not disturbing the latch.
Just kind of pull the breasttissue back to see the gape or
the opening of the baby's mouth.
On other people, depending ontheir breast anatomy, you can
just glance down and absolutelysee that their mouth is wide
open.
There's no little triangle inthe corner of their lips where
the upper and lower lip meet.
We also want to look forflanged lips, right.
(08:27):
So flange just means pointedout.
So we've got the upper lip,that's kind of folded up and out
.
Bottom lip too, if we have themcurled under not ideal.
So just you can kind of flip itup with a finger, with a thumb,
to keep that lip up.
So those are some things tolook for.
And then those of you who arebreastfeeding, there's things to
(08:47):
feel for right.
So there's the visualcomponents and then you'll learn
to feel what a deep latch feelslike.
It should not hurt.
So many people saybreastfeeding is painful.
It's tough for me, like goshway.
Tougher for the moms, but hard.
When I see a mom as she latches, she winces in pain, you know.
(09:07):
She kind of scrunches up, hershoulders are tight, like she's
not having a great time, likesomething's up with this latch.
It should not feel like that.
It shouldn't hurt that acutely.
So keeping a nice deep latch isgoing to be helpful and you'll.
If you feel pain, sharp painthat lasts the whole feed, if
you're feeling if the nipple'sgetting damaged, that's a sign
of a shallow latch.
If it hurts the entire time,that's a sign of a shallow latch
(09:31):
.
So we want to deepen that latch.
Now, one thing that I love towork with is deepening a latch,
not relatching all the time.
So if we don't have a latch,that's great.
You can work on deepening thelatch without unlatching the
baby.
Some babies get prettyfrustrated being latched on and
off all the time, trying to geta deep latch.
Some nipples don't like iteither.
(09:53):
They're like oh, again, again,again, no, so we can kind of
just work with what we have.
So when you get that babylatched, one of the easiest
things to do and it's prettysimple, right, it's simple.
This is not rocket science it'sjust to keep that baby close,
close to the mom, remarkablyclose.
So a lot of times the mom willhave one hand on the head.
(10:16):
So this might, might we callthis cross cradle.
I wish I could draw a picturefor you or show you in person,
but if I have the baby on theright breast, my left hand for
the mom is the forearm, issupporting the baby's body and
my left hand is ear to ear.
So I got basically right behindthe baby's ears.
That gives me control of thebaby's head.
(10:36):
My other hand, my right hand,is on the right breast,
supporting that, and we bringthose two things together.
So we kind of want to I call itwomp the baby on there and keep
the baby remarkably close.
Gravity works, it's a realthing.
So as we're hanging out therefor the duration of a feed
whether that's 10, 20, 30minutes moms, sometimes our
(10:57):
attention drifts or our handgets tired and we don't hold
that baby crazy close and thatbaby can drift off.
They kind of fall off thenipple.
We get triangulation, I call it.
We're seeing that triangle inthe corner of their mouth.
They're falling shallow on thenipple.
They're just sucking the nipple.
They might suck away happily,but they're not deep on the
ducts behind the nipple andthey're not getting milk.
(11:20):
There's not a great transferrate usually and it can cause
pain for the mom during thatfeed.
So one of the tricks to keepinga deep latch is to keep the baby
remarkably close.
Now something I will do almostevery time in hospital, in home,
is give that mom some supportas far as something to bolster
her hold.
You know, because a lot oftimes we are sitting straight up
(11:42):
or just a slightly bit reclinedand we're holding that baby in
front of us.
I like to put I'll roll up alittle baby receiving blanket or
a hand towel, what you can use.
A corner of any blanket really.
If it's an adult size blanket,just roll that up and put it
under the mom's wrist.
So if she's holding the baby'shead with her left hand baby's
nursing on the right side, theright hand is controlling the
(12:05):
right breast put a tuck I callit a tuck under the mom's wrist.
That will help hold the babyremarkably close so the mom can
relax her hand.
Yes, she's holding the baby,but that tuck is doing the the
work of holding the baby close.
So that's a little trick youcan work on to keep the baby
close and just kind of watch.
Watch for that deep latch.
Um, and babies, over time, asthey feed they get a little
(12:28):
tired.
As their belly fills up theyget a little sleepy, kind of
slow.
They're sucking, and then thatmight help them or cause them to
have a more of a shallow latch.
So stimulate them a little bit.
Just wiggle them here and there, tickle their feet.
You have two hands on, twothings, usually for a while in
the early days One hand on thebaby's head, one on the breast.
(12:48):
Wiggle something.
Wiggle the breast, wiggle thebaby's head.
You can do breast compressions.
So you're kind of like notright at the nipple because we
don't want to disturb the latch,but further back, just like
pump the breast, and that thoseare called breast compressions
that can help push a little morefluid into the baby.
If we're having questions of alower milk supply, that's
(13:10):
increased breast stimulation tohelp milk supply, especially
those ducks that are a littlebit farther back.
So there's a few things you cando to know that you have a deep
latch, to be able to get andkeep a deep latch, because when
the latch is deep our nippleswon't be sore, babies will gain
weight, babies will be satiated.
They're not going to be sofussy.
Hopefully they can sleep, getto sleeping a little longer.
(13:33):
But almost every problem thatcomes up with breastfeeding
we're going to go back to latch.
Like, what's going on with thelatch Now?
There are layers of challengeswe will look at.
We'll check the latch, checkthe positioning, see if there's
some little tweaks oradjustments we can make, and if
that doesn't work, we go to thenext level.
Right, we're going to take apeek in that baby's mouth.
(13:53):
A little bit deeper explorationof what's going on with the
anatomy of the baby and how isthat matched up with the anatomy
of the mom.
You know, like when we look atlike oral restrictions, which
are tongue ties, cheek ties orbuccal ties, lip ties, and maybe
this baby can't get a greatlatch, we'll also look at the
(14:14):
mom's anatomy.
Maybe the nipple is very shortor it's flat or inverted.
By the way, inverted nipples,truly inverted, are quite rare
and flat nipples can be pulledout.
So we'd look at using somethinglike a nipple shield.
So what can we do to work withthe mom's anatomy to match it up
to the baby's anatomy?
So, but first and primarily,we're going to look at the latch
.
So, going into this, remember tokeep a deep latch.
(14:38):
You can work and get a deeplatch by two things I like to do
to get a make a latch deeperrather than take the baby on and
off.
One is kind of I call threadinga needle, so you're threading
more breast tissue into thebaby's mouth.
So again, let's say we'reholding the baby so that they're
(14:59):
breastfeeding on the right side.
The mom's left hand is at thebaby's ears, so her forearm is
supporting the baby's body,holding the baby close to her.
The right hand is on the breast.
So if our latch isn't amazingand we can tell that by looking
at the baby and what it feels.
Like mom, you can take yourthumb on that breast, hold the
baby remarkably close with yourleft hand and then your right
(15:21):
hand, take that thumb and kindof push more.
It's like you're pushing breasttissue under their upper lip so
you can get that latch tobecome deeper.
And with your left hand you'rekeeping the baby very close,
snugged up close.
Another way to do it to deepen alatch while the baby's on.
It's called like a chin pull.
Somebody else usually has to dothis because the angle and the.
(15:41):
You need four hands for thisone.
So we've got a mom holding thebaby, holding the baby's head
and the breast, holding themtogether.
Somebody can come from abovethe mom and sneak your little
hand, your finger, your indexfinger, whoever's helping I do
this many, many times a daysneak that finger onto the
baby's chin.
So you're going between thebreast and the chin while the
(16:03):
baby's latched and sucking andjust kind of put the finger on
the bottom of the baby's chinand roll down the chin.
It's kind of a fluid motion toroll down and at the same time
you're rolling down the chinyou're kind of broadening their
mouth gape and then gently pushthe top of their head, the crown
of their head, forward, so thatwill help them get a deeper
latch while they're on withouttake them on again, off again,
(16:26):
because nipples sometimes can'thandle that very well and
neither do babies like it ifthey're getting disturbed all
that often.
So that's some ways we're goingto conclude this episode about
latch what a deep latch lookslike, feels like and how you can
achieve it.
Sometimes it's not possible,but we want to try and then we
work from there.
(16:46):
We don't jump to the biggestproblems, kind of start low and
work up as we need them.
Thank you so much for beingwith me here today.
Hopefully some of this has beenhelpful and you are able to
feed your baby in a way thatfeels successful, sustainable to
you and get the support thatyou need.
There's a lot of lactation helpto be had in the world out
there.
Ask around and see what'savailable to you.
(17:06):
Thanks for being with me onthis episode.
Hopefully you can get a deeplatch, keep a deep latch, so
that we have positivebreastfeeding experiences.
Hope you have a great day.
My name again is Angie Rozier.
This is the Ordinary Dulopodcast.
Signing off and please make aconnection with someone you love
today.
Make a difference in their life.
You never know what that willbring Hope to see you again next
(17:26):
time.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Thank you for listening to the Ordinary Doula
podcast with Angie Rozier,hosted by Birth Learning.
Episode credits will be in theshow notes Tune in next time as
we continue to explore the manyaspects of giving birth.
Welcome to the Ordinary Doula Podcast with
Angie Rozier, hosted by BirthLearning, where we help prepare
folks for labor and birth withexpertise coming from 20 years
of experience in a busy doulapractice Helping thousands of
people prepare for labor,providing essential knowledge
(00:38):
and tools for positive andempowering birth experiences.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Hi, my name is Angie Rozier.
I'm your host of the OrdinaryDoula podcast and we're glad you
could be with us today.
We're doing another episodethat has kind of a lactation
slant on it, which can be veryimportant.
So I work not only as a birthdoula, postpartum doula, but a
lactation consultant as well, soI get to see people in the
hospital.
I work in a couple of differentlocal hospitals, in lactation
(01:10):
and privately as well.
I love both of those roles andthey are so very different from
each other.
So when I help people in thehospital it's sometimes within
minutes after the baby's born.
You know day one, day two, daythree, however long they are in
the hospital, get to see them atthat point, help with what's
going on there.
And then I also have a privatepractice and see people in their
(01:33):
homes after they get home,whether that baby's four days
old, four weeks old.
Sometimes I see babies that aretwo or three months old for the
first time and the challenges,the things that they face, the
experiences they're having arevery different in both of those
realms and I love both of them.
So in the beginning you know wehaven't, we don't know all of
(01:53):
the challenges yet in thebeginning and some challenges
crop up later, some come upright away, but I would
encourage you to have someresources in your back pocket so
know what to do if you havequestions about lactation.
We have, you know, this wholenew focus.
As soon as that baby's born,almost everything focuses to
feeding the baby.
There's a lot of other thingsgoing on as far as, like,
(02:16):
recovery from birth, taking careof mom, things like that, but
the main focus oftentimes is onfeeding that baby, because it's
something that happensfrequently, right Like every
couple of hours actually.
So I want to talk today aboutthe baby's latch.
So when the latch right is howthe breast matches up with, or
how the mouth of the baby'smouth matches up with the breast
(02:38):
, and what we the terminology wetalk about in a latch is a deep
latch.
So a lot of the challenges orthe successes about
breastfeeding have to do withthe latch.
Like, how is that babyattaching to the breast?
What kind of support is thebaby getting in doing that?
Some babies need a whole lot ofsupport, like literally right,
(03:00):
like head support, neck support,keeping that mouth on the
nipple.
Some breasts need a lot ofsupport as far as holding them
up so that the baby can staylatched.
If we don't have a great latch,we could have problems.
We could have transfer problems, where the baby's not getting
enough as far as volume.
We could have nipple or breastchallenges where the mom is
(03:21):
having damaged nipples or havinga whole lot of pain that she's
experiencing which, as you canimagine, creates a huge
challenge if we're breastfeedingevery two or three hours.
So the latch is key.
It's one of the most keycomponents of the breastfeeding
relationship.
That has to do with supplyright, which has to do with
weight gains, which has to dowith, you know, a lot of things.
(03:44):
Breastfeeding is an anatomymatchup.
We're matching up the mom'sanatomy, her nipple, her breast
and her milk supply, which wedon't maybe always know about
right in the beginning how itwill be, and we're matching it
up with that baby's mouth, theinternal and external structures
of that baby's mouth, which wedidn't meet until they were born
right.
So as we match those things up,sometimes the anatomy might
(04:06):
cause some hurdles, butsometimes the anatomy challenges
can be overcome by a good and adeep latch.
So in this episode I want todiscuss what a deep latch is
like.
There are a couple of thingsyou can look for, like visually
you can see with your own eyeswhen a baby has a deep latch.
There are some things you canfeel, like sense on own eyes
when a baby has a deep latch.
(04:26):
There are some things you canfeel, um, like sense on the
breast when a baby has a deeplatch and um, and then there's
some small adjustments to make,and I do it all the time for
people, as I'm watching them,like, oh, let's make this small
adjustment so that that baby canget a deeper latch.
And a lot of people you knowsay, yeah, breastfeeding's going
pretty well, kind of hurts, orkind of this or that.
(04:46):
I have questions about this orthat where, so many times just
having somebody lay eyes onwhether that's in the hospital.
If you have lactationconsultants available, I
encourage you to talk to them.
Start off strong, start offdoing things as well as you can
to avoid some problems down theroad.
But sometimes just minor littleadjustments, little tweaks,
(05:08):
little support here, littleshift there makes all the
difference in the world, and ifyou don't know, you don't know
right, and so reach out and getthat support that you need.
Okay, so a deep latch.
What we look for on a deep latchis when the baby is on the
breast and sucking right.
We have to kind of have suckinggoing on to be able to see this
.
But we will see a pulsatingmovement, kind of right in front
(05:31):
of the baby's ear, where theirtemple is.
So as baby's sucking mom, youcan feel the baby sucking
usually, and then others.
We can feel the baby suckingusually and then others we can
see the baby sucking.
So there'll be kind of a pump,pump, pump, pump, whatever the
cadence of the sucking is right.
So you'll kind of see apulsating in front of the baby's
ear.
If we are getting some movementand there's really a lot of
(05:52):
fast movement but there's notpulsating by the baby's ear,
that baby might not be on verydeep.
We might kind of have a shallowlatch.
Another thing we look for is jawmovement.
So that whole jaw should kindof be moving.
We want the baby's jaw whichtravels up into their ear that's
why we're seeing it on the ear,in front of their ear, on their
temple that whole jaw shouldkind of be involved in a long
(06:12):
pulling, suck motion.
What we don't want to see iswhat we call dimpling.
So if a lot of the movement isright by the baby's lips, so
right where a dimple often isright, and this doesn't.
If your baby has a dimpledoesn't mean they're going to be
doing dimpling by any means.
But if we see dimpling, thatmeans the baby has a pretty
shallow suck, almost like kissylips right, and so if they have
(06:34):
kissy or fish lips that aren'tbig and wide, then they're going
to have some dimpling and we'llsee the more of the movement in
the cheek, not in the jaw andby the ear.
So that's one thing to look for.
Another thing to look for is thegape or the opening of the
baby's mouth.
So we want that baby's mouth tobe very wide open.
So we all know what a 90 degreeangle looks like.
(06:56):
Right, it's like a square.
So there's a 90 degree angle.
We want the baby's gape to belike 140 degrees, really wide.
So I like to take my hand toshow people.
So, if you like, stretch yourthumb and your hands as wide as
you can.
That's like 140 degrees.
Baby's mouth should be verywide open.
If we're seeing a very smallangle 90 degrees or less, what I
(07:21):
call a triangle, right, so thecorner of that baby's mouth is
making a little tiny trianglethat you can see.
Then that baby is prettyshallow and sometimes we can't
see that angle very well.
Why?
Because there's a breast in theway.
So some people have very soft,supple, large breasts.
They're going to just envelopthe baby's head.
So kind of pull back the breastso that you can see.
I like to let a baby do severalsucks before I check this and
(07:45):
I'll just gently pull the breastback.
The mom can do this.
A partner can help with this Ifmom's hands are busy, because a
lot of times mom has a hand onthe baby's head, hand on the
breast.
She does not have three or fourhands.
She needs them, but other handscan be pretty helpful.
So maybe someone else kind ofpulls back that breast tissue
gently.
Let the baby get a good rhythmfirst, and do it gently so that
(08:07):
we're not disturbing the latch.
Just kind of pull the breasttissue back to see the gape or
the opening of the baby's mouth.
On other people, depending ontheir breast anatomy, you can
just glance down and absolutelysee that their mouth is wide
open.
There's no little triangle inthe corner of their lips where
the upper and lower lip meet.
We also want to look forflanged lips, right.
(08:27):
So flange just means pointedout.
So we've got the upper lip,that's kind of folded up and out
.
Bottom lip too, if we have themcurled under not ideal.
So just you can kind of flip itup with a finger, with a thumb,
to keep that lip up.
So those are some things tolook for.
And then those of you who arebreastfeeding, there's things to
(08:47):
feel for right.
So there's the visualcomponents and then you'll learn
to feel what a deep latch feelslike.
It should not hurt.
So many people saybreastfeeding is painful.
It's tough for me, like goshway.
Tougher for the moms, but hard.
When I see a mom as she latches, she winces in pain, you know.
(09:07):
She kind of scrunches up, hershoulders are tight, like she's
not having a great time, likesomething's up with this latch.
It should not feel like that.
It shouldn't hurt that acutely.
So keeping a nice deep latch isgoing to be helpful and you'll.
If you feel pain, sharp painthat lasts the whole feed, if
you're feeling if the nipple'sgetting damaged, that's a sign
of a shallow latch.
If it hurts the entire time,that's a sign of a shallow latch
(09:31):
.
So we want to deepen that latch.
Now, one thing that I love towork with is deepening a latch,
not relatching all the time.
So if we don't have a latch,that's great.
You can work on deepening thelatch without unlatching the
baby.
Some babies get prettyfrustrated being latched on and
off all the time, trying to geta deep latch.
Some nipples don't like iteither.
(09:53):
They're like oh, again, again,again, no, so we can kind of
just work with what we have.
So when you get that babylatched, one of the easiest
things to do and it's prettysimple, right, it's simple.
This is not rocket science it'sjust to keep that baby close,
close to the mom, remarkablyclose.
So a lot of times the mom willhave one hand on the head.
(10:16):
So this might, might we callthis cross cradle.
I wish I could draw a picturefor you or show you in person,
but if I have the baby on theright breast, my left hand for
the mom is the forearm, issupporting the baby's body and
my left hand is ear to ear.
So I got basically right behindthe baby's ears.
That gives me control of thebaby's head.
(10:36):
My other hand, my right hand,is on the right breast,
supporting that, and we bringthose two things together.
So we kind of want to I call itwomp the baby on there and keep
the baby remarkably close.
Gravity works, it's a realthing.
So as we're hanging out therefor the duration of a feed
whether that's 10, 20, 30minutes moms, sometimes our
(10:57):
attention drifts or our handgets tired and we don't hold
that baby crazy close and thatbaby can drift off.
They kind of fall off thenipple.
We get triangulation, I call it.
We're seeing that triangle inthe corner of their mouth.
They're falling shallow on thenipple.
They're just sucking the nipple.
They might suck away happily,but they're not deep on the
ducts behind the nipple andthey're not getting milk.
(11:20):
There's not a great transferrate usually and it can cause
pain for the mom during thatfeed.
So one of the tricks to keepinga deep latch is to keep the baby
remarkably close.
Now something I will do almostevery time in hospital, in home,
is give that mom some supportas far as something to bolster
her hold.
You know, because a lot oftimes we are sitting straight up
(11:42):
or just a slightly bit reclinedand we're holding that baby in
front of us.
I like to put I'll roll up alittle baby receiving blanket or
a hand towel, what you can use.
A corner of any blanket really.
If it's an adult size blanket,just roll that up and put it
under the mom's wrist.
So if she's holding the baby'shead with her left hand baby's
nursing on the right side, theright hand is controlling the
(12:05):
right breast put a tuck I callit a tuck under the mom's wrist.
That will help hold the babyremarkably close so the mom can
relax her hand.
Yes, she's holding the baby,but that tuck is doing the the
work of holding the baby close.
So that's a little trick youcan work on to keep the baby
close and just kind of watch.
Watch for that deep latch.
Um, and babies, over time, asthey feed they get a little
(12:28):
tired.
As their belly fills up theyget a little sleepy, kind of
slow.
They're sucking, and then thatmight help them or cause them to
have a more of a shallow latch.
So stimulate them a little bit.
Just wiggle them here and there, tickle their feet.
You have two hands on, twothings, usually for a while in
the early days One hand on thebaby's head, one on the breast.
(12:48):
Wiggle something.
Wiggle the breast, wiggle thebaby's head.
You can do breast compressions.
So you're kind of like notright at the nipple because we
don't want to disturb the latch,but further back, just like
pump the breast, and that thoseare called breast compressions
that can help push a little morefluid into the baby.
If we're having questions of alower milk supply, that's
(13:10):
increased breast stimulation tohelp milk supply, especially
those ducks that are a littlebit farther back.
So there's a few things you cando to know that you have a deep
latch, to be able to get andkeep a deep latch, because when
the latch is deep our nippleswon't be sore, babies will gain
weight, babies will be satiated.
They're not going to be sofussy.
Hopefully they can sleep, getto sleeping a little longer.
(13:33):
But almost every problem thatcomes up with breastfeeding
we're going to go back to latch.
Like, what's going on with thelatch Now?
There are layers of challengeswe will look at.
We'll check the latch, checkthe positioning, see if there's
some little tweaks oradjustments we can make, and if
that doesn't work, we go to thenext level.
Right, we're going to take apeek in that baby's mouth.
(13:53):
A little bit deeper explorationof what's going on with the
anatomy of the baby and how isthat matched up with the anatomy
of the mom.
You know, like when we look atlike oral restrictions, which
are tongue ties, cheek ties orbuccal ties, lip ties, and maybe
this baby can't get a greatlatch, we'll also look at the
(14:14):
mom's anatomy.
Maybe the nipple is very shortor it's flat or inverted.
By the way, inverted nipples,truly inverted, are quite rare
and flat nipples can be pulledout.
So we'd look at using somethinglike a nipple shield.
So what can we do to work withthe mom's anatomy to match it up
to the baby's anatomy?
So, but first and primarily,we're going to look at the latch
.
So, going into this, remember tokeep a deep latch.
(14:38):
You can work and get a deeplatch by two things I like to do
to get a make a latch deeperrather than take the baby on and
off.
One is kind of I call threadinga needle, so you're threading
more breast tissue into thebaby's mouth.
So again, let's say we'reholding the baby so that they're
(14:59):
breastfeeding on the right side.
The mom's left hand is at thebaby's ears, so her forearm is
supporting the baby's body,holding the baby close to her.
The right hand is on the breast.
So if our latch isn't amazingand we can tell that by looking
at the baby and what it feels.
Like mom, you can take yourthumb on that breast, hold the
baby remarkably close with yourleft hand and then your right
(15:21):
hand, take that thumb and kindof push more.
It's like you're pushing breasttissue under their upper lip so
you can get that latch tobecome deeper.
And with your left hand you'rekeeping the baby very close,
snugged up close.
Another way to do it to deepen alatch while the baby's on.
It's called like a chin pull.
Somebody else usually has to dothis because the angle and the.
(15:41):
You need four hands for thisone.
So we've got a mom holding thebaby, holding the baby's head
and the breast, holding themtogether.
Somebody can come from abovethe mom and sneak your little
hand, your finger, your indexfinger, whoever's helping I do
this many, many times a daysneak that finger onto the
baby's chin.
So you're going between thebreast and the chin while the
(16:03):
baby's latched and sucking andjust kind of put the finger on
the bottom of the baby's chinand roll down the chin.
It's kind of a fluid motion toroll down and at the same time
you're rolling down the chinyou're kind of broadening their
mouth gape and then gently pushthe top of their head, the crown
of their head, forward, so thatwill help them get a deeper
latch while they're on withouttake them on again, off again,
(16:26):
because nipples sometimes can'thandle that very well and
neither do babies like it ifthey're getting disturbed all
that often.
So that's some ways we're goingto conclude this episode about
latch what a deep latch lookslike, feels like and how you can
achieve it.
Sometimes it's not possible,but we want to try and then we
work from there.
(16:46):
We don't jump to the biggestproblems, kind of start low and
work up as we need them.
Thank you so much for beingwith me here today.
Hopefully some of this has beenhelpful and you are able to
feed your baby in a way thatfeels successful, sustainable to
you and get the support thatyou need.
There's a lot of lactation helpto be had in the world out
there.
Ask around and see what'savailable to you.
(17:06):
Thanks for being with me onthis episode.
Hopefully you can get a deeplatch, keep a deep latch, so
that we have positivebreastfeeding experiences.
Hope you have a great day.
My name again is Angie Rozier.
This is the Ordinary Dulopodcast.
Signing off and please make aconnection with someone you love
today.
Make a difference in their life.
You never know what that willbring Hope to see you again next
(17:26):
time.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Thank you for listening to the Ordinary Doula
podcast with Angie Rozier,hosted by Birth Learning.
Episode credits will be in theshow notes Tune in next time as
we continue to explore the manyaspects of giving birth.
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