September 19, 2025 • 28 mins
Twenty years ago, having a baby at home in Utah could land your midwife in jail with felony charges. Today, Utah boasts the most flexible midwifery laws in the nation. What happened in between is a remarkable story of determination, political savvy, and grassroots organizing that forever changed how families experience birth in the state.
Holly Richardson, now known for her political commentary and radio show "Inside Sources" on KSL, joins us to share her firsthand account of the five-year legislative battle to legalize direct-entry midwifery in Utah. As one of the key architects of this movement, Holly reveals the challenges they faced, from powerful medical lobbies to threatening phone calls, and the creative strategies that ultimately led to success.
We explore how a small group of determined women navigated the legislative process despite being told they were fighting an impossible battle. Their persistence paid off in dramatic fashion when the bill passed by a single vote at 9 PM on the final day of the 2005 legislative session. This landmark legislation made Utah the only state with voluntary midwifery licensure and paved the way for birth centers to become legal options for families.
The conversation offers fascinating insights into how birth rights were secured through political activism. Holly shares amusing stories about their advocacy tactics, including flooding legislators with postcards announcing each home birth in their district and mobilizing hundreds of pink-clad supporters to fill committee rooms. These grassroots efforts transformed public perception of midwifery from fringe to mainstream.
For parents considering out-of-hospital birth today, Holly provides practical advice on selecting providers and understanding the licensing system. Whether you're interested in birth options, political activism, or how determined citizens can change laws against powerful opposition, this episode offers valuable lessons in persistence and the power of organized advocacy.
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Show Credits
Host: Angie Rosier
Music: Michael Hicks
Photographer: Toni Walker
Episode Artwork: Nick Greenwood
Producer: Gillian Rosier Frampton
Voiceover: Ryan Parker
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to the Ordinary Doula Podcast with
Angie Rozier, hosted by BirthLearning, where we help prepare
folks for labor and birth withexpertise coming from 20 years
of experience in a busy doulapractice, helping thousands of
people prepare for labor,providing essential knowledge
(00:35):
and tools for positive andempowering birth experiences.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Hello and welcome to the Ordinary Doula Podcast.
I am your host, angie Rozier,and today we have with us a very
special guest.
Her name is Holly Richardson.
She wears many, many hats.
I'll kind of let her introduceherself, but the first hat I
knew that she wore was my doulatrainer some 23 years ago.
Holly has, as I've watched herover the last several years, had
(01:10):
her influence on so manydifferent things, and she's an
incredible woman.
So, holly, will you introduceyourself a little bit, give us a
little bit of background, andthen we'll introduce our topic
for the day.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Sure it's.
It's really varied right?
So there's a lot of differentthings in my background.
So doula and doula trainer wasone of those.
Also direct entry midwife, andthat was one of the things that
got me into politics, which leddown a whole different path.
I became a blogger.
I had a blog called Holly onthe Hill.
(01:42):
I was going to say podcast, butthey didn't even exist.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Those weren't there back then, right they?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
were not.
And then from there I startedwriting for the Salt Lake
Tribune in Utah.
I did opinion columns for fouryears and then I switched over
to the Deseret News and I doopinion columns there, but more
importantly, I do a dailynewsletter called Utah Policy.
So it really is about politics.
So here you know, a long timelater I'm really involved in
(02:09):
politics, which when I was yourdoula trainer I did not.
I mean you could have told methat and I'm like well, I ever
like no way will that happen?
Right so, and even even moreoutlandish is, I ended up
getting a PhD in politicalscience.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Like what the freak you went down a big rabbit hole
that you love rabbit hole right.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
So my first degree, my first academic degree, was as
a nurse, and then I got twodegrees in communication and
finished it off with a degree inpolitical science.
Anyway, now I'm co-host of aradio show on KSL news radio.
It's every morning from 9 tonoon.
It's called Inside Sources andit's really fun.
It's something different.
I've only been doing it for afew months and just really
(02:50):
really love it.
I have a chance to talk to lotsof really fun people.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Very cool.
I love to listen to that.
I try to catch you whenever Ican, so you're doing a great job
, thank you.
So today, our topic.
This is something as I've goneto a couple births throughout
the year with home birthmidwives, some of whom were in
the industry 20 years ago gotchatting and realized that 20
(03:14):
years ago something prettyincredible happened in the state
of Utah around home birth andhome birth midwives, and Holly
had a front row seat to that, soI kind of wanted to chat with
her about that.
I actually wanted to host aparty or a celebration or just
shout it from the rooftops,because I think it's very
important to.
I mean, a lot of people don'tknow this story right, this is
(03:36):
going to be new to them.
But to realize what we havehere in Utah the accessibility
to options and choices forfamilies of Utah and how they
birth, where they birth camefrom 20 years ago.
A lot of it, and I don't knowthat everyone knows that, so I
just want to do a shout out forthat.
And during that 20 years, I didspend five years living in
North Carolina, where the birthlaws are incredibly different
(03:58):
and how that impacted practiceand families there.
So, coming back to Utah, evenmore grateful for the options
that we have here.
So, holly, if you can tell usthis story like, what was going
on, what was different before2004, 2005?
And what was different after?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
So it's really funny to look back, because what the
norm is now right, you justmentioned, it's kind of normal
that we have options and werealize that we do.
But in 2000, I had just I hadactually just certified as a
certified professional midwife,which is a national
certification, and there was amidwife in the state of Utah who
(04:38):
was arrested and charged withpracticing medicine without a
license and I, I mean, I feltlike her actions were totally
appropriate, they were certainlywithin the scope of her
training and her skillset.
But what we realized as amidwifery community is that the
laws what we were told about thelaws in the state of Utah were
(04:58):
not actually accurate, so theywere partially accurate.
So parents had the right tochoose, and parents 20 years ago
could choose to deliver theirbabies wherever they wanted.
However, if you were not sothat's not illegal Parents were
doing nothing illegal.
Parents were not doing anythingillegal.
But if you were the provider,then you were practicing
(05:19):
medicine without a license,which is a third degree felony,
not good right.
Without a license which is athird degree felony, not good
Right they could pursue anythingfrom diet that you diagnosed a
pregnancy, you prescribed aspecific treatment.
So then you diagnosed,prescribed and treated.
You just have three countsright there, right?
So yeah, using, just anyway.
(05:40):
There was a lot, and so, as welooked into the law, we realized
that we did not understandcompletely how the law would
apply until this midwife wasarrested.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
So it kind of took that catalyst to take a good
look it really did.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yeah, it really did.
And then there was a.
There was a kind of a cohort ofus that were willing to be on
the Hill and talking tolegislators.
This was a group effort,there's no question.
This process took us fivelegislative sessions, so
beginning with the legislativesession in 2001.
So one, two, three, four andfive.
(06:15):
So four calendar years, butfive legislative sessions to
pass a bill that legalizeddirect entry midwifery in the
state of Utah.
That legalized direct entrymidwifery in the state of Utah.
And I look back now with someamusement in some ways, because
I remember it being really hard.
It was really hard.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
And now- Because you didn't know the system.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, partially.
So one of the things thathappened when we said, hey,
we're going to go change thislaw, we had people say you do
not want to know what you'redoing.
You're going up against one ofthe most powerful lobbies in the
state of Utah, the medicalassociation, and and you're
never going to be successful.
And they were right on two outof the three counts right.
So we did not know what we weredoing.
(07:03):
We were going up against apowerful lobby and, and it took
us a while but we weresuccessful.
And it's one of the things nowwhere, at the time, it's like we
have a 45 day legislativesession in Utah.
So if you are not done by thelast week of March, you have to
wait until January.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Starts over, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
And I remember like just crying more than once when
our bill died and we're like oh,we gotta wait another year.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Does that mean you start over or do you start where
you left off?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
There's some of both, right, so your relationships
carry over.
But there's elections every twoyears for representatives,
every four years for senators,so you may have to reestablish
new ones, rewrite the bill forsure, right?
You had to be able to say, okay, what are your concerns?
How do we address your concerns, those types of things.
So the fourth year, so in 2004,.
(08:00):
We were able to get it throughthe House, but it was killed on
the Senate side by people wethought were our allies, and
that was really disappointing.
Oh that's hard.
And then we had to wait anotherwhole year Right, and it did
not pass.
It was one of the very firstbills released in the session.
It did not pass until 9 pm thelast day of the legislative
(08:21):
session.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Wow so, and it only passed by one vote, wow.
I mean it was close, it wasclose, Very close Very very
close, and and what'sinteresting since then is it has
just become the norm, right.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Does it ever get contested along the way Like do
we ever revisit?
Speaker 3 (08:42):
They did right at the beginning.
Yeah, so our opponentscontested right at the beginning
, and by contest I mean theywanted to propose different laws
.
There was one like I don'tthink anybody did it the next
year, but the second year afterwe passed it there was a bill
that wouldn't have completelyeliminated the law, but what it
(09:02):
did was imply so manyrestrictions like you literally
would have.
Like, I don't know, maybe 5% ofpregnant women would fit into
that category, being able torisk out right, Right.
So if you had ever had a babybefore 37 weeks, if you ever had
a baby after 40 weeks, if you'dever have a baby bigger than
(09:23):
eight pounds or smaller than sixpounds, I mean it was so narrow
that it was like this isridiculous.
And so after that we actuallydid have a rules committee for a
while.
That was established and set upand I was part of that.
We had at least one physiciannow I can't remember at least
one certified nurse midwife, wehad two.
(09:48):
I think we had three directentry midwives actually on the
committee and we came up withrules and those are the ones
that are still basically inplace, and what that did is one
provide some parameters forthese licensed direct entry
midwives, but it also providedan additional level of things
that you could do as an LDEM,because you had taken a
(10:11):
pharmacology class and you had aphysician that you worked with
to create, you know, some kindof a list of things that they
felt comfortable with youadministering.
There were also other rulesabout like when we transport
those types of things.
So we are the only state in thenation that has a voluntary
licensure program.
It's very unique.
It can be confusing and that'sone of the arguments I continue
(10:34):
to hear is that's confusingbecause I thought they were
licensed.
Yes, some of the midwives inthe state are licensed, but not
all the midwives.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
So they are.
They can be, they're allowed tobe, but they don't have to be.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
That is correct.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
So that's pretty flexible.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
That's very flexible.
But you're now legal as adirect wife to practice in the
state of Utah, right, so youdon't have to worry that you're
going to go to jail, right,doing a birth, yeah, right, so
yeah, so I recall I was a babydoula at the time.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I remember going to a couple meetings.
I didn't know what was going on, I felt overwhelmed.
But I remember something aboutthere was concessions given like
twins versus V backs and likemore people are going to be
facing a V back at home thanmultiples, probably, and so
things like that.
And it sounds like this rulescommittee had the voices of
(11:24):
everybody at the table.
Right, everyone had a voice.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yes, and the rules committee came about after the
law actually passed.
So yeah, there are some thingsin the law that were kind of put
in place.
But yeah, you're correct aboutthat.
We wanted to be able to give asmuch flexibility as possible
for as many situations aspossible.
But the twins thing is actuallya rule and it's in the actual
legislation, so it's in therules for licensed direct entry
(11:48):
midwives.
So there are there.
There's just like a variety ofthings Like if you're a licensed
direct entry midwife in thestate of Utah, you could
administer Pitocin for ahemorrhage.
If you are not licensed, you donot have the legal authority to
do that.
Everyone has the ability tocarry oxygen, because even our
(12:09):
detractors are like well, ifyou're going to do it, you
should probably have oxygen.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Right, let's be smart about it.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
So, yeah, yeah, so there were some of those things
like that and it was, you know.
From there we got the license,direct entry midwife act with
rules put in place, so now wehave a licensure.
We also got birth centers, yes,legalized and licensed.
And I will say that was suzannesmith.
That was really her work, andone of the things that happened
(12:36):
is it just came out as anoffshoot, I think, of this work
that we did with midwifery,because she started reading the
law and she's she was like thislaw literally makes it
impossible for anyone to have abirth center technically legal
on the books, but so manyrestrictions, it was impossible.
And so we had an ally Um, itwas Senator Deidre Henderson at
(13:01):
the time.
She's governor for the stateand she, like she had her
interns scouring meeting minutes, listening to recordings, and
she was like they were open intheir disdain for birth centers
and people who practice thereand they're basically like we're
going to prevent them fromdoing this.
But we were able to pressforward, especially Suzanne, and
(13:23):
so now we have the ability tohave legally licensed birth
centers in the state of Utah aswell.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Which there are so many right Like there's.
There's a plethora of birthcenters available from all along
the Wasatch Front and so manyhome birth midwives which people
have a lot of choices.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
So, wow, yeah, and isn't that interesting, right,
that that it's midwives whichpeople have a lot of choices?
So, wow, yeah, and isn't thatinteresting, right, that that
it's it's been normalized.
And you know, when I startedthis journey, I would say 25
well, I mean more than thatbefore.
When I started practicing, butthe the legal journey 25 years
ago, people largely wereunfamiliar with midwives, right?
So we would have legislatorswho asked us things like well,
(14:00):
how do you do a C-section athome?
Like, well, we do C-sections athome?
Wow, right, and they justdidn't know.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
A lot of education had to take place.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, lots for a lot of them.
So now we have things like Callthe Midwife right, which is a
really great realistic show.
I think that normalized thatand we have people who've
discussed it more.
And now, when I think thatnormalized that and we have
people who've discussed it more,and now when I say, you know,
I've been a midwife, they'relike oh, that's really cool.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
It's like what is that?
Yeah, yeah, interesting.
So it has become morenormalized and I know Utah has a
higher home birth or out ofhospital birth rate than many
other states, which is kind ofinteresting, but these partially
.
I mean we have an interestingfamily dynamic here as well, but
the laws are friendly to it aswell.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah, the laws are friendly to it and we're as far
as I'm aware, there are norumblings of any kind of
legislation aimed at doulas.
But look, even lawmakers knowwhat doulas are now, and there
have been, in fact there've beenseveral lawmakers championing
doulas getting paid throughMedicaid.
Medicaid yes, yeah because thereare plenty of studies now that
(15:09):
show how helpful doulas are indecreasing the complication rate
, which, at the bottom line, ifyou're a politician, a
legislator, you're looking athow do I best spend taxpayer
money?
It's a lot better investment tospend on a doula.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, absolutely that can bring down your obviously
cesarean NICU, all those thingsright, All those things yeah.
Wow that that brings a wholenother podcast episode to mind,
Because that and that somestates are like I work with a
group that's working on thatacross the country, and some
states are reimbursing $3,500Medicaid, which is pretty
(15:46):
incredible.
Yeah, that's pretty incredibleso hopefully we're making
headway there and so just doinga little research.
Like Alabama, nebraska, northCarolina remain, and illegal may
be the not quite correct term,but they're just not allowed.
They won't allow licensure, sosame thing that Utah used to
have, I suppose, right.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Yeah, and I would say so.
I think when we passed our lawit was there was kind of a
little flurry of states passinglaws right around that time the
early two thousands, and I thinkwe were state number 26.
So we were just the tippingpoint, to be over halfway.
But there were some that werethen and I think still are now
very, very hostile to midwives,right, and it's like some of the
(16:30):
stuff that we heard.
We were called baby killers.
We heard a lobbyist who stillworks on the Hill I still see
him every year who said that ifthe state approved this, they
would also have to set asidemoney for body bags because we
would be burying people in ourbackyards.
I mean there's stuff like thatwhere it's like oh my gosh,
(16:51):
right, we had at my house thisis back in the day when we used
to have a home phone.
My kids would answer the phoneand people would yell at them
and tell them their mom wasgoing to go to jail.
I mean just, I mean people werenot excited about this
opportunity and now, um, again,it's become normalized, and that
(17:16):
was one of the things that evenour detractor said is, once you
pass this, this becomes normal,this becomes what government
says is okay and you don't wantto go down that road.
They were right about thatfirst part.
It has become normalized, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
And then a good way and a lot of ways, but also,
because it is a pretty broadstroke licensed, unlicensed
people have to be cautious,right, those who are practicing
as midwives, licensed or not,and those who are choosing.
So what advice do you have forfamilies who are selecting out
of hospital birth, because wehave a lot of options?
What advice might you have forthose looking at birth centers
(17:54):
or midwives out of hospital?
Speaker 3 (17:56):
I think you need to be really clear about asking
whether they're licensed or not.
And I will say this one of themore recent pieces of
legislation and I'm going tothink it's maybe I can't
remember in relation to thepandemic, so in the last five
years I think there's been a newlaw that says every single
midwife, no matter what kind ofmidwife you are, has to have
(18:17):
informed consent, and on thatconsent document you must
specify what your training isand whether you're licensed or
not in the state of Utah.
And so so for parents, yourbest question to ask them is are
you licensed in the state ofUtah?
What's your training?
What's your background?
What do you do in cases ofemergency?
Right, and the the concerns thatI still hear rumblings on the
(18:40):
Hill about is this people arejust not sure.
They heard midwife, they knowlicensure is available, they
thought their midwife waslicensed, right?
So you can ask those types ofquestions.
Absolutely would ask those whatdo you do in case of emergency?
How do you solve, you know, howdo you handle a hemorrhage?
Are you licensed to carryPitocin to stop a hemorrhage?
What's your plan if we need tobe transported to the hospital?
(19:04):
But really you can ask justpoint blank are you licensed and
where's your informed consentform?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, and licensed that was through the NARM,
correct?
Is that kind of what?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
we're looking for.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
CPMs.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Well, yes, for the state of Utah, you have to be to
be licensed in the state ofUtah, and that that's a really
good point actually.
So you want to know what typeof licensure?
So I guess, clarify thequestion are you licensed in the
state of Utah as a licenseddirect entry midwife?
Because you can get acertification, that's the
certified professional midwife,the CPM, right Without being
(19:38):
licensed in the state of Utah.
So you can do the one but notthe other.
But in Utah, to be a licenseddirect entry midwife, you have
to do both and there's a coupleof additional steps that you
have to take.
You have to have the CPM.
So they didn't want to reinventthe wheel.
You do the CPM, the nationalexam, those things, but you also
have to do a pharmacology class, you've got to do a fetal heart
rate monitoring class, you'vegot to pass a background check
(20:01):
and there's some CEUs that youhave to do on an ongoing basis.
So there is a difference andthat's a very good question and
thanks for asking that.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, okay, and that's how I kind of looked up.
It was like CPR is involved,obviously, record keeping,
getting consent, like you hadsaid, and it also comes in, as
you had mentioned before, liketransfers, when transfers happen
, utah has become much morefriendly to a transfer situation
, correct, there's a lot ofcollaboration that's happened
(20:29):
with that, which is helpful toeveryone, right?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Yeah, and one of the things that happened during the
birth center discussion is well,you have to have an agreement
with the hospital, but that waspart of the impossible paradox.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I remember that.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Not a single hospital that would say I will put in
writing that I will take anypatient that you transfer, but
because of federal law affectingemergencies.
So it's the EMTALA law, it'semergencies and labor right.
Because of that, they will takeanybody who comes in right.
So typically people willtransfer to the closest hospital
.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Right, just proximity , yeah, very cool, interesting
Cool.
Yeah, I know in North Carolinawe had people going to South
Carolina, virginia.
Some of our midwives, long timemidwives, have been in jail
before and transfers like kindof dangerous, like they had to
drop and go, like they couldn'tshare information because it's
pretty hostile to that.
So, gosh, I learned a whole bigpiece of gratitude for what we
(21:25):
have.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
It used to be that way in Utah a lot of people or
they would go in and they wouldsay well, this is my sister,
we're really.
That's like the fourth oneyou've transported here.
You have a lot of sisters, yeahRight, and I remember there were
midwives who would.
They were based in Utah, butbecause it was not legal, we
were in this whole process.
(21:46):
They would drive up to Wyomingand like an RV and they would do
prenatal care and stuff upthere in Wyoming, across the
border, because it was alreadylegal in the state of Wyoming,
right, there's those types ofthings that actually make it
less safe for parents havingbabies, and so now I think, yeah
, utah does have a lot of reallygreat options for parents.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, so making it legal in this manner makes it
more safe for everyone.
I think so Very cool, I agree.
Very cool, holly.
Anything else you want to leavewith us?
And again my shout out from therooftops is gratitude to those
who did the work so many yearsago and for those of us who have
benefited from that.
I've had two home births myselfsince then, been to dozens and
(22:26):
dozens as a doula, but, but yeah, any parting thoughts with us
for where we're at?
Speaker 3 (22:31):
I wanted to share you .
I wanted to share a couple offunny stories, okay, so so we
knew that we needed to getlawmakers attention and we we
knew that there were people whowere in opposition to our bill
who were getting their attention, and so one of the marketing
campaigns that we did was tosend a postcard every time a
baby was born and we added acouple layers of informed
(22:54):
consent right, the midwife hadto consent, the parent had to
consent, but basically it wasjust a generic postcard and it
was addressed to the lawmakerfor that area, or the two right,
a representative and a senator,and it said congratulations, a
new constituent was just born inyour district.
Right, with a home birth midwifeClever.
So there were so many going outthat I had a like boxes that I
(23:20):
had a senator come up to me onetime and say I will not vote for
your bill If you don't stopsending me those.
You proved your point.
And he he was only he wasjoking, mostly joking because he
was a supporter, he was anearly supporter, but it was so
funny he was like just totallyoverwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Wow, that helps them see the numbers right, like it
did right Real time.
Nobody in my district has ahome birth, right, so that was
them.
See the numbers right, like itdid right Real time.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Nobody in my district has a home birth right, so that
was one of the ways to makethat visible.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
And then also the opposers.
I imagine when we look atnumbers, they and say to
hospital transfers you're goingto see a fraction and not the
best fraction, right?
So the glimpse you're gettingis not sure not the shining part
yeah, sure.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
So eight, what eight?
And ten stay home, right?
Yeah, maybe 20 transfer.
So so that was one thing.
And then the other thing is wehad done we adopted bright pink
and that was my favorite colorat the time, so I probably had
some influence there.
It was really fun, but we did mm's that.
So for moms and midwives andopportunity, we had to hand out
(24:26):
something with a statement or aninvitation.
It would be moms and midwivesfor whatever.
So we get down to the end onthe last session and we had all
these moms and we ended uprecruiting as many people as we
could find.
I swear we ended up with like425 people, volunteers, some of
them grandma and grandpas, someof them, you know, never going
(24:50):
to have a baby in their life,some of them actively
breastfeeding or pregnant,whatever.
We just all these people andthey all wore these stickers and
then we just flooded thecommittee rooms and every
legislator.
When you look out there, youcan see a sea of people who are
there to support that bill.
Right, that's powerful andimpactful.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
So and that bright pink probably stood out pretty
good.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
The bright pink stood out and that's one of the
reasons you do it right.
It's like, well, I can tellwhat group you're with, right
and, and I think again, havingthose having enough people who
cared, even if you yourself werenot going to have a home birth,
having enough people who cared,even if you yourself were not
going to have a home birth.
And in fact, we had people whowould say I'm still in my
childbearing years.
I would never choose thatoption, but I think people
(25:32):
should have that ability tochoose Right.
We we ended up with so manyvolunteers, right, if it were
just a few of us saying, hey,you know, do this, we would
never have been successful.
But because we were able tomobilize, um, this volunteer
army, we really had that.
And you know, like I said, nowit's, it was really successful,
but it was now I look back andsay, well, that was fun, but at
the time it was not fun.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
No, and I didn't realize how long it took like
how many years of effort andnobody was paying you to do this
right.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
No, it was money out of our pockets, yep.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Absolutely so.
That's incredible work and Iknow I remember people at the
time.
But main players, and are youable to share with us yourself
you talked about Suzanne Smithany other main players that we
can be grateful for?
Speaker 3 (26:18):
I think Johnston was the other one, yeah, yeah, yeah,
absolutely Legislative.
So there were like I think thatwas kind of the core group, the
three of us, but everybodyplayed a part right.
So the doulas in the state, themidwives in the state, we had
just a variety and we had againsome.
Even within our own communityit was split, so some were
supportive and some were not.
(26:39):
Some called us midwives, somewere you know that's right.
Yeah yeah, yeah, I remember thatthere's lots of tension there.
But, um, for, for a lot ofpeople I think it was their
preference was to kind of keeptheir heads down, and I
understand that right.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Stay off the radar right.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Yeah, especially because the way it kicked off
was an arrest with a felonycharge.
Right, they would havepreferred that we not shake the
tree.
Um but we did and and I'm andI'm really happy we did, and 20
years later I'm still shakingthe tree.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
So yes, you are.
You found new trees to shake to, new trees, lots of trees out
there, wow, cool.
Well, holly, thank you so muchfor giving us a glimpse of the
work, because I just I lovewhere we are and I want to
appreciate those who've comebefore, whose shoulders we stand
on in this awesome work thatwe're doing, so appreciate you
(27:35):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Glad to have you here .
Thanks for being with us.
We'll wrap up our podcastepisode today and, as always,
please go out and make a humanconnection with someone someone
you know, someone you don't.
Human connection is important.
Thanks for being here.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Thank you for listening to the Ordinary Doula
podcast with Angie Rozier,hosted by Birth Learning.
Episode credits will be in theshow notes Tune in next time as
we continue to explore the manyaspects of giving birth.
Thank you.
Welcome to the Ordinary Doula Podcast with
Angie Rozier, hosted by BirthLearning, where we help prepare
folks for labor and birth withexpertise coming from 20 years
of experience in a busy doulapractice, helping thousands of
people prepare for labor,providing essential knowledge
(00:35):
and tools for positive andempowering birth experiences.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Hello and welcome to the Ordinary Doula Podcast.
I am your host, angie Rozier,and today we have with us a very
special guest.
Her name is Holly Richardson.
She wears many, many hats.
I'll kind of let her introduceherself, but the first hat I
knew that she wore was my doulatrainer some 23 years ago.
Holly has, as I've watched herover the last several years, had
(01:10):
her influence on so manydifferent things, and she's an
incredible woman.
So, holly, will you introduceyourself a little bit, give us a
little bit of background, andthen we'll introduce our topic
for the day.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Sure it's.
It's really varied right?
So there's a lot of differentthings in my background.
So doula and doula trainer wasone of those.
Also direct entry midwife, andthat was one of the things that
got me into politics, which leddown a whole different path.
I became a blogger.
I had a blog called Holly onthe Hill.
(01:42):
I was going to say podcast, butthey didn't even exist.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Those weren't there back then, right they?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
were not.
And then from there I startedwriting for the Salt Lake
Tribune in Utah.
I did opinion columns for fouryears and then I switched over
to the Deseret News and I doopinion columns there, but more
importantly, I do a dailynewsletter called Utah Policy.
So it really is about politics.
So here you know, a long timelater I'm really involved in
(02:09):
politics, which when I was yourdoula trainer I did not.
I mean you could have told methat and I'm like well, I ever
like no way will that happen?
Right so, and even even moreoutlandish is, I ended up
getting a PhD in politicalscience.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Like what the freak you went down a big rabbit hole
that you love rabbit hole right.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
So my first degree, my first academic degree, was as
a nurse, and then I got twodegrees in communication and
finished it off with a degree inpolitical science.
Anyway, now I'm co-host of aradio show on KSL news radio.
It's every morning from 9 tonoon.
It's called Inside Sources andit's really fun.
It's something different.
I've only been doing it for afew months and just really
(02:50):
really love it.
I have a chance to talk to lotsof really fun people.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Very cool.
I love to listen to that.
I try to catch you whenever Ican, so you're doing a great job
, thank you.
So today, our topic.
This is something as I've goneto a couple births throughout
the year with home birthmidwives, some of whom were in
the industry 20 years ago gotchatting and realized that 20
(03:14):
years ago something prettyincredible happened in the state
of Utah around home birth andhome birth midwives, and Holly
had a front row seat to that, soI kind of wanted to chat with
her about that.
I actually wanted to host aparty or a celebration or just
shout it from the rooftops,because I think it's very
important to.
I mean, a lot of people don'tknow this story right, this is
(03:36):
going to be new to them.
But to realize what we havehere in Utah the accessibility
to options and choices forfamilies of Utah and how they
birth, where they birth camefrom 20 years ago.
A lot of it, and I don't knowthat everyone knows that, so I
just want to do a shout out forthat.
And during that 20 years, I didspend five years living in
North Carolina, where the birthlaws are incredibly different
(03:58):
and how that impacted practiceand families there.
So, coming back to Utah, evenmore grateful for the options
that we have here.
So, holly, if you can tell usthis story like, what was going
on, what was different before2004, 2005?
And what was different after?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
So it's really funny to look back, because what the
norm is now right, you justmentioned, it's kind of normal
that we have options and werealize that we do.
But in 2000, I had just I hadactually just certified as a
certified professional midwife,which is a national
certification, and there was amidwife in the state of Utah who
(04:38):
was arrested and charged withpracticing medicine without a
license and I, I mean, I feltlike her actions were totally
appropriate, they were certainlywithin the scope of her
training and her skillset.
But what we realized as amidwifery community is that the
laws what we were told about thelaws in the state of Utah were
(04:58):
not actually accurate, so theywere partially accurate.
So parents had the right tochoose, and parents 20 years ago
could choose to deliver theirbabies wherever they wanted.
However, if you were not sothat's not illegal Parents were
doing nothing illegal.
Parents were not doing anythingillegal.
But if you were the provider,then you were practicing
(05:19):
medicine without a license,which is a third degree felony,
not good right.
Without a license which is athird degree felony, not good
Right they could pursue anythingfrom diet that you diagnosed a
pregnancy, you prescribed aspecific treatment.
So then you diagnosed,prescribed and treated.
You just have three countsright there, right?
So yeah, using, just anyway.
(05:40):
There was a lot, and so, as welooked into the law, we realized
that we did not understandcompletely how the law would
apply until this midwife wasarrested.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
So it kind of took that catalyst to take a good
look it really did.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yeah, it really did.
And then there was a.
There was a kind of a cohort ofus that were willing to be on
the Hill and talking tolegislators.
This was a group effort,there's no question.
This process took us fivelegislative sessions, so
beginning with the legislativesession in 2001.
So one, two, three, four andfive.
(06:15):
So four calendar years, butfive legislative sessions to
pass a bill that legalizeddirect entry midwifery in the
state of Utah.
That legalized direct entrymidwifery in the state of Utah.
And I look back now with someamusement in some ways, because
I remember it being really hard.
It was really hard.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
And now- Because you didn't know the system.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, partially.
So one of the things thathappened when we said, hey,
we're going to go change thislaw, we had people say you do
not want to know what you'redoing.
You're going up against one ofthe most powerful lobbies in the
state of Utah, the medicalassociation, and and you're
never going to be successful.
And they were right on two outof the three counts right.
So we did not know what we weredoing.
(07:03):
We were going up against apowerful lobby and, and it took
us a while but we weresuccessful.
And it's one of the things nowwhere, at the time, it's like we
have a 45 day legislativesession in Utah.
So if you are not done by thelast week of March, you have to
wait until January.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Starts over, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
And I remember like just crying more than once when
our bill died and we're like oh,we gotta wait another year.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Does that mean you start over or do you start where
you left off?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
There's some of both, right, so your relationships
carry over.
But there's elections every twoyears for representatives,
every four years for senators,so you may have to reestablish
new ones, rewrite the bill forsure, right?
You had to be able to say, okay, what are your concerns?
How do we address your concerns, those types of things.
So the fourth year, so in 2004,.
(08:00):
We were able to get it throughthe House, but it was killed on
the Senate side by people wethought were our allies, and
that was really disappointing.
Oh that's hard.
And then we had to wait anotherwhole year Right, and it did
not pass.
It was one of the very firstbills released in the session.
It did not pass until 9 pm thelast day of the legislative
(08:21):
session.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Wow so, and it only passed by one vote, wow.
I mean it was close, it wasclose, Very close Very very
close, and and what'sinteresting since then is it has
just become the norm, right.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Does it ever get contested along the way Like do
we ever revisit?
Speaker 3 (08:42):
They did right at the beginning.
Yeah, so our opponentscontested right at the beginning
, and by contest I mean theywanted to propose different laws
.
There was one like I don'tthink anybody did it the next
year, but the second year afterwe passed it there was a bill
that wouldn't have completelyeliminated the law, but what it
(09:02):
did was imply so manyrestrictions like you literally
would have.
Like, I don't know, maybe 5% ofpregnant women would fit into
that category, being able torisk out right, Right.
So if you had ever had a babybefore 37 weeks, if you ever had
a baby after 40 weeks, if you'dever have a baby bigger than
(09:23):
eight pounds or smaller than sixpounds, I mean it was so narrow
that it was like this isridiculous.
And so after that we actuallydid have a rules committee for a
while.
That was established and set upand I was part of that.
We had at least one physiciannow I can't remember at least
one certified nurse midwife, wehad two.
(09:48):
I think we had three directentry midwives actually on the
committee and we came up withrules and those are the ones
that are still basically inplace, and what that did is one
provide some parameters forthese licensed direct entry
midwives, but it also providedan additional level of things
that you could do as an LDEM,because you had taken a
(10:11):
pharmacology class and you had aphysician that you worked with
to create, you know, some kindof a list of things that they
felt comfortable with youadministering.
There were also other rulesabout like when we transport
those types of things.
So we are the only state in thenation that has a voluntary
licensure program.
It's very unique.
It can be confusing and that'sone of the arguments I continue
(10:34):
to hear is that's confusingbecause I thought they were
licensed.
Yes, some of the midwives inthe state are licensed, but not
all the midwives.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
So they are.
They can be, they're allowed tobe, but they don't have to be.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
That is correct.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
So that's pretty flexible.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
That's very flexible.
But you're now legal as adirect wife to practice in the
state of Utah, right, so youdon't have to worry that you're
going to go to jail, right,doing a birth, yeah, right, so
yeah, so I recall I was a babydoula at the time.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
I remember going to a couple meetings.
I didn't know what was going on, I felt overwhelmed.
But I remember something aboutthere was concessions given like
twins versus V backs and likemore people are going to be
facing a V back at home thanmultiples, probably, and so
things like that.
And it sounds like this rulescommittee had the voices of
(11:24):
everybody at the table.
Right, everyone had a voice.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yes, and the rules committee came about after the
law actually passed.
So yeah, there are some thingsin the law that were kind of put
in place.
But yeah, you're correct aboutthat.
We wanted to be able to give asmuch flexibility as possible
for as many situations aspossible.
But the twins thing is actuallya rule and it's in the actual
legislation, so it's in therules for licensed direct entry
(11:48):
midwives.
So there are there.
There's just like a variety ofthings Like if you're a licensed
direct entry midwife in thestate of Utah, you could
administer Pitocin for ahemorrhage.
If you are not licensed, you donot have the legal authority to
do that.
Everyone has the ability tocarry oxygen, because even our
(12:09):
detractors are like well, ifyou're going to do it, you
should probably have oxygen.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Right, let's be smart about it.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
So, yeah, yeah, so there were some of those things
like that and it was, you know.
From there we got the license,direct entry midwife act with
rules put in place, so now wehave a licensure.
We also got birth centers, yes,legalized and licensed.
And I will say that was suzannesmith.
That was really her work, andone of the things that happened
(12:36):
is it just came out as anoffshoot, I think, of this work
that we did with midwifery,because she started reading the
law and she's she was like thislaw literally makes it
impossible for anyone to have abirth center technically legal
on the books, but so manyrestrictions, it was impossible.
And so we had an ally Um, itwas Senator Deidre Henderson at
(13:01):
the time.
She's governor for the stateand she, like she had her
interns scouring meeting minutes, listening to recordings, and
she was like they were open intheir disdain for birth centers
and people who practice thereand they're basically like we're
going to prevent them fromdoing this.
But we were able to pressforward, especially Suzanne, and
(13:23):
so now we have the ability tohave legally licensed birth
centers in the state of Utah aswell.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Which there are so many right Like there's.
There's a plethora of birthcenters available from all along
the Wasatch Front and so manyhome birth midwives which people
have a lot of choices.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
So, wow, yeah, and isn't that interesting, right,
that that it's midwives whichpeople have a lot of choices?
So, wow, yeah, and isn't thatinteresting, right, that that
it's it's been normalized.
And you know, when I startedthis journey, I would say 25
well, I mean more than thatbefore.
When I started practicing, butthe the legal journey 25 years
ago, people largely wereunfamiliar with midwives, right?
So we would have legislatorswho asked us things like well,
(14:00):
how do you do a C-section athome?
Like, well, we do C-sections athome?
Wow, right, and they justdidn't know.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
A lot of education had to take place.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, lots for a lot of them.
So now we have things like Callthe Midwife right, which is a
really great realistic show.
I think that normalized thatand we have people who've
discussed it more.
And now, when I think thatnormalized that and we have
people who've discussed it more,and now when I say, you know,
I've been a midwife, they'relike oh, that's really cool.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
It's like what is that?
Yeah, yeah, interesting.
So it has become morenormalized and I know Utah has a
higher home birth or out ofhospital birth rate than many
other states, which is kind ofinteresting, but these partially
.
I mean we have an interestingfamily dynamic here as well, but
the laws are friendly to it aswell.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Yeah, the laws are friendly to it and we're as far
as I'm aware, there are norumblings of any kind of
legislation aimed at doulas.
But look, even lawmakers knowwhat doulas are now, and there
have been, in fact there've beenseveral lawmakers championing
doulas getting paid throughMedicaid.
Medicaid yes, yeah because thereare plenty of studies now that
(15:09):
show how helpful doulas are indecreasing the complication rate
, which, at the bottom line, ifyou're a politician, a
legislator, you're looking athow do I best spend taxpayer
money?
It's a lot better investment tospend on a doula.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Yeah, absolutely that can bring down your obviously
cesarean NICU, all those thingsright, All those things yeah.
Wow that that brings a wholenother podcast episode to mind,
Because that and that somestates are like I work with a
group that's working on thatacross the country, and some
states are reimbursing $3,500Medicaid, which is pretty
(15:46):
incredible.
Yeah, that's pretty incredibleso hopefully we're making
headway there and so just doinga little research.
Like Alabama, nebraska, northCarolina remain, and illegal may
be the not quite correct term,but they're just not allowed.
They won't allow licensure, sosame thing that Utah used to
have, I suppose, right.
Speaker 3 (16:05):
Yeah, and I would say so.
I think when we passed our lawit was there was kind of a
little flurry of states passinglaws right around that time the
early two thousands, and I thinkwe were state number 26.
So we were just the tippingpoint, to be over halfway.
But there were some that werethen and I think still are now
very, very hostile to midwives,right, and it's like some of the
(16:30):
stuff that we heard.
We were called baby killers.
We heard a lobbyist who stillworks on the Hill I still see
him every year who said that ifthe state approved this, they
would also have to set asidemoney for body bags because we
would be burying people in ourbackyards.
I mean there's stuff like thatwhere it's like oh my gosh,
(16:51):
right, we had at my house thisis back in the day when we used
to have a home phone.
My kids would answer the phoneand people would yell at them
and tell them their mom wasgoing to go to jail.
I mean just, I mean people werenot excited about this
opportunity and now, um, again,it's become normalized, and that
(17:16):
was one of the things that evenour detractor said is, once you
pass this, this becomes normal,this becomes what government
says is okay and you don't wantto go down that road.
They were right about thatfirst part.
It has become normalized, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
And then a good way and a lot of ways, but also,
because it is a pretty broadstroke licensed, unlicensed
people have to be cautious,right, those who are practicing
as midwives, licensed or not,and those who are choosing.
So what advice do you have forfamilies who are selecting out
of hospital birth, because wehave a lot of options?
What advice might you have forthose looking at birth centers
(17:54):
or midwives out of hospital?
Speaker 3 (17:56):
I think you need to be really clear about asking
whether they're licensed or not.
And I will say this one of themore recent pieces of
legislation and I'm going tothink it's maybe I can't
remember in relation to thepandemic, so in the last five
years I think there's been a newlaw that says every single
midwife, no matter what kind ofmidwife you are, has to have
(18:17):
informed consent, and on thatconsent document you must
specify what your training isand whether you're licensed or
not in the state of Utah.
And so so for parents, yourbest question to ask them is are
you licensed in the state ofUtah?
What's your training?
What's your background?
What do you do in cases ofemergency?
Right, and the the concerns thatI still hear rumblings on the
(18:40):
Hill about is this people arejust not sure.
They heard midwife, they knowlicensure is available, they
thought their midwife waslicensed, right?
So you can ask those types ofquestions.
Absolutely would ask those whatdo you do in case of emergency?
How do you solve, you know, howdo you handle a hemorrhage?
Are you licensed to carryPitocin to stop a hemorrhage?
What's your plan if we need tobe transported to the hospital?
(19:04):
But really you can ask justpoint blank are you licensed and
where's your informed consentform?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, and licensed that was through the NARM,
correct?
Is that kind of what?
Speaker 3 (19:13):
we're looking for.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
CPMs.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Well, yes, for the state of Utah, you have to be to
be licensed in the state ofUtah, and that that's a really
good point actually.
So you want to know what typeof licensure?
So I guess, clarify thequestion are you licensed in the
state of Utah as a licenseddirect entry midwife?
Because you can get acertification, that's the
certified professional midwife,the CPM, right Without being
(19:38):
licensed in the state of Utah.
So you can do the one but notthe other.
But in Utah, to be a licenseddirect entry midwife, you have
to do both and there's a coupleof additional steps that you
have to take.
You have to have the CPM.
So they didn't want to reinventthe wheel.
You do the CPM, the nationalexam, those things, but you also
have to do a pharmacology class, you've got to do a fetal heart
rate monitoring class, you'vegot to pass a background check
(20:01):
and there's some CEUs that youhave to do on an ongoing basis.
So there is a difference andthat's a very good question and
thanks for asking that.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, okay, and that's how I kind of looked up.
It was like CPR is involved,obviously, record keeping,
getting consent, like you hadsaid, and it also comes in, as
you had mentioned before, liketransfers, when transfers happen
, utah has become much morefriendly to a transfer situation
, correct, there's a lot ofcollaboration that's happened
(20:29):
with that, which is helpful toeveryone, right?
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Yeah, and one of the things that happened during the
birth center discussion is well,you have to have an agreement
with the hospital, but that waspart of the impossible paradox.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I remember that.
Speaker 3 (20:43):
Not a single hospital that would say I will put in
writing that I will take anypatient that you transfer, but
because of federal law affectingemergencies.
So it's the EMTALA law, it'semergencies and labor right.
Because of that, they will takeanybody who comes in right.
So typically people willtransfer to the closest hospital
.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Right, just proximity , yeah, very cool, interesting
Cool.
Yeah, I know in North Carolinawe had people going to South
Carolina, virginia.
Some of our midwives, long timemidwives, have been in jail
before and transfers like kindof dangerous, like they had to
drop and go, like they couldn'tshare information because it's
pretty hostile to that.
So, gosh, I learned a whole bigpiece of gratitude for what we
(21:25):
have.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
It used to be that way in Utah a lot of people or
they would go in and they wouldsay well, this is my sister,
we're really.
That's like the fourth oneyou've transported here.
You have a lot of sisters, yeahRight, and I remember there were
midwives who would.
They were based in Utah, butbecause it was not legal, we
were in this whole process.
(21:46):
They would drive up to Wyomingand like an RV and they would do
prenatal care and stuff upthere in Wyoming, across the
border, because it was alreadylegal in the state of Wyoming,
right, there's those types ofthings that actually make it
less safe for parents havingbabies, and so now I think, yeah
, utah does have a lot of reallygreat options for parents.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, so making it legal in this manner makes it
more safe for everyone.
I think so Very cool, I agree.
Very cool, holly.
Anything else you want to leavewith us?
And again my shout out from therooftops is gratitude to those
who did the work so many yearsago and for those of us who have
benefited from that.
I've had two home births myselfsince then, been to dozens and
(22:26):
dozens as a doula, but, but yeah, any parting thoughts with us
for where we're at?
Speaker 3 (22:31):
I wanted to share you .
I wanted to share a couple offunny stories, okay, so so we
knew that we needed to getlawmakers attention and we we
knew that there were people whowere in opposition to our bill
who were getting their attention, and so one of the marketing
campaigns that we did was tosend a postcard every time a
baby was born and we added acouple layers of informed
(22:54):
consent right, the midwife hadto consent, the parent had to
consent, but basically it wasjust a generic postcard and it
was addressed to the lawmakerfor that area, or the two right,
a representative and a senator,and it said congratulations, a
new constituent was just born inyour district.
Right, with a home birth midwifeClever.
So there were so many going outthat I had a like boxes that I
(23:20):
had a senator come up to me onetime and say I will not vote for
your bill If you don't stopsending me those.
You proved your point.
And he he was only he wasjoking, mostly joking because he
was a supporter, he was anearly supporter, but it was so
funny he was like just totallyoverwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Wow, that helps them see the numbers right, like it
did right Real time.
Nobody in my district has ahome birth, right, so that was
them.
See the numbers right, like itdid right Real time.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Nobody in my district has a home birth right, so that
was one of the ways to makethat visible.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
And then also the opposers.
I imagine when we look atnumbers, they and say to
hospital transfers you're goingto see a fraction and not the
best fraction, right?
So the glimpse you're gettingis not sure not the shining part
yeah, sure.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
So eight, what eight?
And ten stay home, right?
Yeah, maybe 20 transfer.
So so that was one thing.
And then the other thing is wehad done we adopted bright pink
and that was my favorite colorat the time, so I probably had
some influence there.
It was really fun, but we did mm's that.
So for moms and midwives andopportunity, we had to hand out
(24:26):
something with a statement or aninvitation.
It would be moms and midwivesfor whatever.
So we get down to the end onthe last session and we had all
these moms and we ended uprecruiting as many people as we
could find.
I swear we ended up with like425 people, volunteers, some of
them grandma and grandpas, someof them, you know, never going
(24:50):
to have a baby in their life,some of them actively
breastfeeding or pregnant,whatever.
We just all these people andthey all wore these stickers and
then we just flooded thecommittee rooms and every
legislator.
When you look out there, youcan see a sea of people who are
there to support that bill.
Right, that's powerful andimpactful.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
So and that bright pink probably stood out pretty
good.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
The bright pink stood out and that's one of the
reasons you do it right.
It's like, well, I can tellwhat group you're with, right
and, and I think again, havingthose having enough people who
cared, even if you yourself werenot going to have a home birth,
having enough people who cared,even if you yourself were not
going to have a home birth.
And in fact, we had people whowould say I'm still in my
childbearing years.
I would never choose thatoption, but I think people
(25:32):
should have that ability tochoose Right.
We we ended up with so manyvolunteers, right, if it were
just a few of us saying, hey,you know, do this, we would
never have been successful.
But because we were able tomobilize, um, this volunteer
army, we really had that.
And you know, like I said, nowit's, it was really successful,
but it was now I look back andsay, well, that was fun, but at
the time it was not fun.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
No, and I didn't realize how long it took like
how many years of effort andnobody was paying you to do this
right.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
No, it was money out of our pockets, yep.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Absolutely so.
That's incredible work and Iknow I remember people at the
time.
But main players, and are youable to share with us yourself
you talked about Suzanne Smithany other main players that we
can be grateful for?
Speaker 3 (26:18):
I think Johnston was the other one, yeah, yeah, yeah,
absolutely Legislative.
So there were like I think thatwas kind of the core group, the
three of us, but everybodyplayed a part right.
So the doulas in the state, themidwives in the state, we had
just a variety and we had againsome.
Even within our own communityit was split, so some were
supportive and some were not.
(26:39):
Some called us midwives, somewere you know that's right.
Yeah yeah, yeah, I remember thatthere's lots of tension there.
But, um, for, for a lot ofpeople I think it was their
preference was to kind of keeptheir heads down, and I
understand that right.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Stay off the radar right.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
Yeah, especially because the way it kicked off
was an arrest with a felonycharge.
Right, they would havepreferred that we not shake the
tree.
Um but we did and and I'm andI'm really happy we did, and 20
years later I'm still shakingthe tree.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
So yes, you are.
You found new trees to shake to, new trees, lots of trees out
there, wow, cool.
Well, holly, thank you so muchfor giving us a glimpse of the
work, because I just I lovewhere we are and I want to
appreciate those who've comebefore, whose shoulders we stand
on in this awesome work thatwe're doing, so appreciate you
(27:35):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Glad to have you here .
Thanks for being with us.
We'll wrap up our podcastepisode today and, as always,
please go out and make a humanconnection with someone someone
you know, someone you don't.
Human connection is important.
Thanks for being here.
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Thank you for listening to the Ordinary Doula
podcast with Angie Rozier,hosted by Birth Learning.
Episode credits will be in theshow notes Tune in next time as
we continue to explore the manyaspects of giving birth.
Thank you.
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