July 3, 2025 • 69 mins
Key Takeaways:
- Renegotiating relationships with family while staying true to your authentic self.
- Finding harmony requires holding seemingly contradictory truths simultaneously.
- Our core purpose often resonates with us from a young age, but life's layers and societal expectations can obscure it.
An extraordinary conversation with Dr. Joshua Caraballo, an industrial organizational psychologist whose life story defies simple categorization. As a cisgendered, gay Puerto Rican cancer survivor, who grew up in a Jehovah's Witness household, Dr. Josh shares how multiple intersecting identities shaped his understanding of purpose and acceptance.
The discussion traverses deeply personal terrain, from Dr. Josh's earliest memories of attraction to the devastating stage-four Hodgkin's lymphoma diagnosis he received at just 18 years old. Most poignantly, he reveals how this diagnosis initially reinforced internalized religious guilt—"God had just punished me"—before eventually catalyzing profound spiritual growth. These experiences form the backbone of his memoir, aptly titled "I'm Not Dead Yet…”
What distinguishes this conversation is Dr. Josh's practical wisdom for cultivating resilience. He introduces listeners to the PERMA-V framework for mental wellbeing: Positive emotion, Engagement, Relationships, Meaning, Achievement, and Vitality. This multi-dimensional approach acknowledges healing isn't linear but requires continuous self-awareness and acceptance.
All links to today's guest's work and official site
Dr Josh's Website ➡️ https://www.drjosh.solutions
Instagram Account ➡️ @dr_josh_solutions
LinkedIn ➡️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-josh/
Connect with us!!!
Instagram @discovertheothersideoffear
Youtube The Other Side of Fear Podcast
Kertia's Email: discovertheothersidepodcast@gmail.com
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All health and mental health topics within the content of this body of work are for informational, discussion, reflective, and entertainment purposes only. The Other Side of Fear and its contents does not replace nor does it claim to replace the knowledge, expertise and advice of licensed healthcare professionals.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kertia (00:00):
Hello everybody.
I hope you are all having anamazing, amazing summer break.
Summer started off somehow alittle bit shaky for me.
I recently got robbed, my carwas broken into and it was not a
(00:20):
fun experience.
I am still trying to unraveleverything that came from that.
It was a bit traumatizing forme.
To be honest, it's notsomething that I've ever
experienced in my life.
I haven't ever experiencedanything like that.
So it was jarring.
(00:42):
It kind of shocked my systemfor a bit and yeah, but the
recovery process hasn't been sobad and thankfully the aftermath
of that wasn't so.
It was heavy, but it wasn't asheavy as it could have been.
(01:02):
Let's say I'm safe, everyone issafe, so that is the most
important thing and anythingthat is lost can be recovered.
I mean, it's just materialthings at the end of the day,
and the most important thing islife and health and safety.
(01:25):
So you know, coming back fromthat, I've just been so grateful
, so so grateful about howeverything has turned out.
There are so many lessons thatcame out of that experience
alone, so many lessons.
That has kind of toucheddifferent aspects of my life.
(01:50):
Actually, it's crazy how onething can lead to so much, can
teach you so much and I'velearned so much from it and I'm
just so grateful and I'velearned so much from it and I'm
just so grateful for everythingthat has occurred and for how
easy the recovery process hasbeen for me.
(02:13):
And me saying that the recoveryprocess has been easy, it's not
to negate how difficult thesituation has been to deal with,
how hurtful it was to me.
But you know, having faced alot of challenges in life, I
(02:38):
think I have developed a certainsense of awareness and a
certain level of resilience and,as with anything that happens
in life because, as we all know,life be life in the level of
consciousness with which youapproach any situation largely
(03:01):
determines the outcome.
And I think you know, with thatbeing said, it's just a matter
of perspective and how youchoose to respond to life's
situation.
A lot is happening in the worldright now and many people are
(03:23):
going through it.
You know there is a lot ofchaotic energy out there and, as
a part of my own healingprocess dealing with this and
just regular life stuff, Ireally thought that it was
(03:44):
important for me to send healingprayers to the person who
vandalized my car and stole mypossessions, my earthly
possessions, my earthlypossessions.
(04:21):
Um, yeah, I, I thought that itwas very important for me to do
that and you know, when you'rein pain, it is so easy to create
more pain.
So, as hurtful as thatexperience has been for me, I
(05:04):
have nothing but transparentabout the beginning of my summer
and what that has been like.
I'm still looking forward tohaving an amazing year ahead.
I'm still optimistic and, yeah,still pushing through.
Yeah, still pushing through.
(05:29):
And speaking of that, I feellike, with everything that I
have been through in life, Irealize how resilient I am and I
think I don't give myselfenough credit for that.
Yeah, I think a lot of thetimes when we go through things
and when we go through life andthe way that we come back from a
lot of the things that we gothrough, I think we don't give
(05:51):
ourselves enough credit for howwe handle situations, for how we
survive situations, and wedefinitely all need to give
(06:11):
ourselves more grace and morelove and more compassion.
So, yeah, speaking of that, Irecently had such an inspiring
conversation with Dr JoshuaCaraballo.
(06:32):
He's an industrialorganizational psychologist and
we spoke about thetransformative power of
resilience and self-acceptance,which is also one of the key
messages within his memoir I'mNot Dead Yet.
I love that.
Love the title.
Dr Josh is such a beautifulsoul.
I had such a pleasure speakingwith him.
(06:52):
He seeks to inspire othersthrough storytelling, which is
really special, especially forthose who have been historically
marginalized and oppressed.
Been historically marginalizedand oppressed, and touching on
his own personal story of beinga cisgendered gay Puerto Rican
cancer survivor who struggledwith his identity on so many
(07:14):
levels.
Dr Josh truly delivered anempowering talk during our
exchange and I hope thisconversation is a reminder for
you that whatever it is that youmay be going through, that is
not the end, that you can makeit, even when it feels
impossible.
All right.
(07:40):
So your introduction to me youspoke about various adversities
that you went through and youknow like that came out, even
with your memoir.
But definitely I want toaddress the piece around your
sexuality and what that journeyhas been like for you and why it
(08:00):
was so important for you totell your story.
Dr. Josh (08:04):
Absolutely, and thank you so much for having me on
your show.
I really do appreciate it.
My queerness, from the earliestmemory that I can remember
anyway, was me as a young lad,if you will not, knowing
anything about sex, sexualityEven from a physical standpoint,
(08:27):
I was not in a place to where Icould be aroused in a way that
you know like sexually aroused,and I don't mean that to be like
rude or sound gross or anythinglike that, it's just to put
things into perspective.
I understood what an attractionwas, based on emotion and some
(08:50):
physicality as well, but it wasmuch different.
It was almost like a spiritualfeeling and the affinity that I
had towards the male form andthis was was.
So, back again to my earliestmemories, just looking at like a
jc penny catalog, which I don'teven think they make anymore,
(09:12):
send out to home.
So I was born in 1977, just togive you an indication.
So we're talking about likemaybe I was six or seven and as
I was, I would flip through thecatalog.
I would have this visceralreaction, like I said, to that
male form.
Again, did not understand,didn't have the words or the
(09:32):
language to attach to that, justa true understanding of what
that was.
Obviously, I was able to putmore words to that, but it was
scary for me because I grew upin the Jehovah's Witness
household.
That also taught me at a veryyoung age that a man who sleeps
(09:57):
with a man to quote from theBible is an abomination.
What I felt was my true senseof being and what and who I
wanted to love, versus what Iwas being taught at a very young
age, was wrong, and people dealwith this in so many different
ways.
The way that I dealt with itwas to suppress and to try to
(10:18):
change myself, and the more Idid that, the harder it became.
(10:41):
And the more I did that, theharder it became, the harder it
became for me to live day to dayand be happy lot, because I had
, uh, effeminate behaviorsgrowing up that I tried to
correct a lot, so the typicalsort of like, um, effeminate
behaviors that you would thinkabout although that in of itself
(11:02):
could be a whole discussionright.
Like we bring up our children,for the most part not everyone
Like for men to act masculine.
You must not do this or that,you can't walk or talk a certain
way, and so I fit the bill, ifyou will, for being effeminate
(11:22):
and because of that I really hadto bear the brunt of these
social I don't know what word touse like social sanctioning
that I had.
So it wasn't just for my family, it was from the people in the
church, it was also when I wentto school Again, my earliest
memories.
(11:43):
As time progressed, I waseventually able to leave my home
at the age of 18 and I went toNew York to study and, as you
might imagine, everything that Iwas suppressing for about 18
years of my life I did.
It was time for me to do allthose things good, bad,
(12:04):
indifferent, whatever it was, Iwas doing it.
And just a few months afterthat I was diagnosed with
Hodgkin's lymphoma, and it wasin stage four.
Now, from a practicalperspective and, of course,
years later removed from thatsituation, it is obvious that
being in stage four meant thatthis was something that was
(12:25):
growing inside of me the cancerfor quite some time.
But from the perspective of ayoung man at the age of 18 who
finally let loose and did allthe things that he's ever wanted
to do and then got cancer to me, it was very clear during that
time that God had just punishedme and he was telling me
(12:47):
something loud and clear youfinally did what you were not
supposed to do and now you haveto pay the price.
So, as you might imagine, thatreally messes with you, messes
with your brain, messes withyour emotion and messes with
your ability to become an adult.
It messes with your emotion, itmesses with your ability to
become an adult, and for manyyears thereafter, there were
(13:08):
multiple layers of my identity,of various things that I had to
go through, obviously includingcancer and, thankfully,
surviving.
It did come back a second timeand at that point in time I
thought I was done, but I'm not.
I'm here and like the book, butI'm not.
I'm here and, like the booksays, I'm not dead yet.
(13:35):
So, as long as I'm alive, I'mnow understanding not just now,
but for the last, I'd say, 10plus years, I've finally started
to click and understand.
All of these experiences werefor a reason.
All of these things that I wasable to get through and survive
is to make me a better person,and so it becomes my job to
learn those lessons, to applythose lessons, to continuously
(13:59):
practice being a better person,which will take the rest of my
life to do, which is fine andthen also to help other people
who are going through similarthings, whether it be exactly
the same, like going throughcancer, being a gay youth
growing up, or somethingdifferent, but still tied to
that, because we all know whatoppression feels like being
(14:19):
called out for your identitywhen you know deep down inside
that there's nothing wrong withthat, that it is actually a
natural thing to do, but goingagainst the grain where society
for the most part is telling you, no, you're not supposed to be
here, or if you are, you're notsupposed to be where you're at.
You're supposed to be down inthe trenches for the rest of
(14:41):
your life because you're notworthy of living a life like
some of these other people might.
Kertia (14:48):
Yeah, you have such a powerful message.
One thing I'd love to know youmentioning when you first got
the cancer, when you were 18,when you were doing all the
things and thinking like, okay,now, God, this must be my
punishment for doing the badthing, right?
How did you then change yourmindset to step into this more
(15:11):
empowered version of yourself?
Because cancer is no joke, andof course, I understand.
When you are faced with allthese social constructs of what
you should be, what youshouldn't be, what it means to
be a man and what it means to bemasculine and you being seen as
the opposite of all of that,being faced with all of those
(15:33):
things, the meanings and thesymbolism and how that was
projected onto you from such anearly age, from family, from
friends and whoever else, howdid you manage to change your
mindset from I'm being punishedto no, I am okay, there's
(15:56):
nothing wrong with me?
Dr. Josh (15:58):
Yeah, it's a great question and the answer is very
multifaceted.
There's so many differentthings that had to happen for me
to get to the place that I amnow, and I would venture to say
it would look different foreveryone, but the trajectory
that I had to take was reallyabout me going down a dark path
(16:20):
for quite some time and thenrealizing that that dark path
was not the best for me and thenfiguring out ways to undo all
of that.
So I ended up abusing drugs andalcohol for quite some time,
because after I was diagnosed asbeing in remission from cancer,
(16:41):
you would think I would be soelated and so thankful to have
my life back, so to speak, andmaybe you want to catch up on
some of those years.
It was about five years oftreatment and waiting with scans
just to make sure that thecancer was gone.
But that's not what happened tome.
I was lost.
(17:01):
I didn't know where I belonged.
I was lost.
I didn't know where I belonged.
I tended to gravitate back andforth to the extreme.
So you know, trying to changemyself completely and make
myself masculine and make myselfstraight, and at one point even
trying to make myself as whiteas possible, because I thought
(17:22):
that's what would make mesuccessful.
So, there's a lot of layers thatI had built up upon myself,
that were fake, that were nottruly who I was, and so it
doesn't happen overnight.
I had to spend a lot of time,many years, undoing all those
layers so I can get back to thecore of who I am and fall in
love with that, and for me, itrequired a lot.
(17:43):
It required first making aconviction that I would stop
treating myself and my body in away that was so bad and so
unhealthy, so that I could clearthe way for understanding what
all these layers were.
That I added as a way tosurvive.
(18:04):
Understanding what all theselayers were, that I added as a
way to survive, and that theywere no longer serving me, would
not serve me moving, they wouldnot serve me moving forward
Sorry, if I could say it rightand that I also need to
renegotiate every single one ofmy relationships.
So I had to look at therelationship that I have with my
parents, my extended family,the relationship that I had with
(18:28):
myself, which is, first andforemost, the relationship that
I had with religion generallyspeaking, because I am not a
Jehovah's Witness.
I think that's obvious.
But what it also does forsomeone like myself is it kind
of gives you a bad taste aboutreligion altogether.
Kertia (18:44):
Yeah.
Dr. Josh (18:46):
And yet that is yet another way of looking at the
world and all or nothingthinking there's good, bad and
everything in between ineverything that you look at.
And so I think religion is nodifferent for me.
Even if I eschew religionaltogether, I think it's still
good to look back and find thepieces that work for me.
(19:06):
Yeah, and so I still believe ingod, and so what I did is I
just renegotiated what god lookslike to me.
He is not a hateful person orentity, he, she, whatever you
prefer, um, and he loves me.
He wants me to be here.
He knows I'm not a bad person.
(19:27):
See, I say all these things outloud, but I have to truly
believe that, and that's wheremy faith comes in.
Faith is the expectation ofsomething not yet beheld, which
I think is amazing.
All the great things that itcan do to you might feel like an
exercise in silliness, but whenyou hold onto something like
(19:50):
that, it can really change yourlife, and I needed that.
I needed to rethink what Godwas and is and can be, and that,
along with everything else thatI renegotiated in my life, was
but a part of how I becamebetter.
The last thing I'll mention fornow because, like I said, it's
(20:12):
so multifaceted that any one ofthese aspects that I utilized in
my life I could talk about foran entire hour.
But psychology, psychology hasbeen very helpful, whether it be
from the helping relationshipsthat I had one-on-one with a
psychologist therapist, orwhether it be something outside
of that, like the studies that Idid to gain my doctoral degree
(20:34):
in psychology.
Although it was focused onwhat's called industrial
organizational psychology, a lotof it is drawn from the
clinical psychology literature.
So it's just applieddifferently and, as you might
guess, whatever you do in theworkplace, for most people
anyway carries over into yourlife, unless you're in the movie
(20:57):
or in the TV show Severance.
So that again, I know it's along answer and I haven't even
hit on every aspect, but I thinkthose are the major things that
have truly made a differencefor me oh, my goodness.
Kertia (21:16):
Yeah, you said so many phenomenal things.
Um, what would you say has beenthe most challenging part of
all of that?
Because I can only imagine whatyour experience has been like,
especially as a man.
We all know how.
(21:37):
You know it's bad enough whenyou think about everything that
the queer community has to dealwith, but then, when it comes to
men, it's just like so muchheavier and there's just so much
more violence geared towardsmen as well, and for you having
(21:58):
to go through, I guess,struggling with accepting
yourself.
You even mentioned yourethnicity.
Like even that aspect of it,like that is just like so
layered, it's a lot of layers,and I can only imagine what that
journey has been like.
(22:19):
It's like excruciating.
I can only imagine appreciating, I can only imagine right.
So I'd love to know, like whatcould you say has been one of
the most?
I think that's like there'sjust I don't know, I don't even
know if this is like a properquestion, because, like I don't.
(22:39):
How do you choose what is themost challenging out of?
Dr. Josh (22:42):
all of that like that is crazy.
I'm with you, but I think it'sa great.
Kertia (22:49):
It's a great question, yeah but I want to know, like,
how do you take out of, like Iguess, the most challenging
aspect of that to create thislike really profound work that
you're doing right now, thememoir that you have?
Like how did that work for you?
Dr. Josh (23:10):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it is really difficult to pinpoint
one thing.
I'll give you a couple.
So one of the things for me wasreally figuring out a way to
stop playing the victim, butalso being okay with being the
victim, because I actually was avictim in so many different
(23:30):
ways the way I grew up.
I'm a puerto rican, so in termsof my heritage, um, being
latino under that umbrella, ifyou will although some, uh,
puerto ricans will will notidentify that way, but I'm okay
with it that adds, like you said, a whole other layer to it and
(23:50):
I can easily go back to being avictim.
But at some point in my lifeand I've pinpointed when that
was.
It was after cancer, maybe afew years after that I just told
myself I can't, this is not theway I want to live.
I don't want to be the victim.
There's always something orsomeone or a group of people
(24:13):
that are faring much worse thanmyself, even with all those
layers that you mentioned.
For instance, black trans womenare dying, are being killed.
I see the connections nowbetween masculinity, femininity.
I mean I wrote a wholedissertation on it.
So we won't get into that wholething unless you'd like to get
(24:35):
into it more, but I see thoseconnections in life because of
what I've gone through, and somy second really big learning
lesson is being able to hold twodisparate, polar opposite sort
of ideals and find a way tofunction.
(24:56):
So you look at the sort oftrajectory again of my life and
the mainstays that have comethrough being effeminate versus
understanding masculinity polaropposites in my mind or can be,
and me having to find a way to.
Where do I fit into that sothat I can feel comfortable with
(25:20):
who I am and what I bring tothe table?
It's the same thing withreligion.
So you have religion on one endand its extremist values or
theories, and then on the otherend you have people who just say
there is no such thing as God.
I believe in science.
Although we could poke holes inthat as well, there is some
(25:42):
science that kind of verifies atleast that there is some sort
of creator out there oh yeah butI don't mean to get on too many
tangents, but my point is,because this is part of it there
are nuances to everything.
So when you start to break itdown and this has been really
helpful for me as well, for thepolitics of our nation in the
united states as of late, wherethings have become a lot more
(26:05):
extreme and it's just too easyto pick one side, because that's
a way that we save cognitions,energy, et cetera.
But it's a shortcut.
It's a shortcut tounderstanding the nuances of
life, and I have to acknowledgethat it's going to take a lot
more energy whether it beemotional, cognitive or
(26:27):
otherwise for me to understandthose nuances.
But it is worth every secondBecause that's where the value
is.
And so when I find myself goingback to those all or nothing
sort of stances which I will dobecause I'm a human being and
all of us do it it's one of ourbiases, that's built into our
brain and it's also a way, likeI said, for us to save energy.
(26:48):
So when I see myself involvedin a shortcut, so to speak,
where it's left or right, etcetera, et cetera, I try to
question myself and challengemyself, and that's been so, so
helpful.
That's a really broad umbrellathat I've utilized in so many
different ways, but it justkeeps coming back to me, and so
(27:08):
I think that's been one of thosehuge learning lessons for me,
and I love talking about itbecause anyone could apply that
in their lives right here, rightnow.
You don't have to wait.
Kertia (27:19):
Yeah, yes, the everything you just said, yes,
the everything you just said.
Yes to everything you just said.
Dr. Josh (27:40):
Yes to everything you just said.
Yeah, oh gosh.
So tell me, tell us about youreverything that's happened in my
life.
There's been a lot of feedbackthat I've gotten reviews, et
cetera, where people have saidthis was so grueling for me to
get through.
But I'm so glad I read it,because we need stories like
(28:00):
this, and that has really warmedmy heart.
It is my first book, so thereare, just to be super honest,
some editorial mistakes, but youcan still get through the book
and understand it.
And I just say that because Idon't want to come across like,
yeah, I've accomplished thesethings and I'm a perfect person.
I'm not.
I make mistakes all the time.
(28:22):
I'm still struggling.
I'm not struggling as much as Iused to, but I will struggle
for the rest of my life andthat's fine, that's great, I'm
embracing that and that's what'sreally part of what's making me
a better person.
So writing this book the firstbook I've ever written and put
out there is not a perfect book,but it is one to where you will
(28:43):
know everything about me upuntil this point in my life
probably more than you everwanted to know.
But the point is not to justlike divulge everything and make
you feel like I've overshared.
It's really to providesolidarity and hope and to show
that, no matter how dark thingsget, no matter how bad it gets
(29:04):
in your life, there's alwayssomething that you can look
forward to.
And I know it's harder for somethan others, especially in this
day and age, but that hope isso, so worth it and I'm hoping
that I can give just a smidge ofthat to people who read the
book.
Kertia (29:23):
That's beautiful.
Now I got to read it.
Dr. Josh (29:30):
Please, yes, or you can listen to it as well.
It's an audio book, it is ane-book and a regular softcover
book.
So choices, you have options.
Kertia (29:41):
Amazing, amazing, yeah, oh my gosh.
You mentioned so many importantthings.
It's hard for me to pinpointwhat I want to, like ask you,
but you know one thing, onething that stood out to know
(30:03):
what does your, I guess, whatdoes your maintenance, your
mental health maintenance, looklike?
Now?
You mentioned therapy before.
You mentioned psychology.
You know, of course, thestruggle.
It never ends.
There is always some aspectsthat comes up from time to time
(30:24):
that we still have to address.
So I'd like to know, like howare you?
What is your healing journey,or mental health journey?
What does that look like foryou right now?
Dr. Josh (30:38):
Absolutely so.
Fair notice, this will be maybea longer response than usual.
No worries, I'm already a veryverbose person, but it's an
important question and it's notjust an easy answer for me.
The first thing is, if youdon't have the energy, the
(31:02):
capacity and you just want tosit and do nothing, that's okay.
I think for me, I've had to bemore and more okay with that.
I am the type of person thatwants to achieve and achieve,
and I think we live in a world,especially in the Western sort
of predilection that we aretaught from very young age you
(31:24):
got to go, go go, you got to do,do, do.
This is how you make it, and aswe get older, those things
become more and more difficult.
We have more well, just a bunchof different things happening
simultaneously, especially now.
So I think one of the biggestthings is just practice kindness
, patience, compassion withyourself and be okay with just
(31:49):
sitting around and doing nothingand don't try to tell yourself
that you're doing somethingwrong, bad, that you're lazy, et
cetera.
Those are messages from theworld that don't need to apply
to you Now.
If you're doing that for months, that's different.
Right, that's like yeah, sojust monitor it and see how long
you need to be in that space.
(32:09):
But outside of that, when I dohave the cognition and the
ability and the capacity to workon what's going to keep up my
mental health, there's a modelthat I use.
It's called PERMA, it's anacronym P-E-R-M-A and sometimes
it's referred to as PERMA-V,with a V at the end, and I'll
(32:30):
try to be as quick as possiblehere.
So the P is positive emotion.
You have a cookie, yourfavorite cookie.
Mine is like a soft batch ofwhite chocolate, macadamia nut.
I'll have to be careful,because now I'm vegan and the
white chocolate isn't alwaysvegan, but that is like wow,
(32:51):
that is something that makes mefeel so good.
That's positive emotion.
It could be through sex, itcould be through playing a video
game.
There's so many different waysyou do it.
But here's the caveat about theP, if you will it.
But here's the caveat about theP, if you will.
There is a threshold by which,if you go past that threshold,
you will start to havediminishing returns.
(33:11):
Example go back to the cookie.
After my third one, I'm notfeeling so great anymore.
In fact, if I have four or five, I'm probably feeling a little
bit sick.
That's for me, and everyone hastheir own threshold.
But when you engage in positiveemotion as it's defined under
PERMA or PERMA-V, you have to becareful.
You don't want all of yourfeel-goods, if you will, to come
(33:34):
from that one part, which iswhy there's other aspects to the
acronym.
The E is engagement, and thatcan mean so many different
things to so many differentpeople.
However, engagement in thisparticular case means that
you're engaging with the worldby utilizing your inner values
(33:55):
and obviously, in order to dothat, you have to know yourself.
You have to know what thosevalues are.
Here's something to keep inmind Values cannot be negative.
Negative, they cannot bedetrimental to yourself or the
world.
So if somebody is thinking,well, you know what?
If somebody's values is to goand, you know, harm people, that
cannot be a value.
(34:15):
A value that is lived in actionevery day is a beautiful thing.
That actually brings comfort,hope, resilience, oh resilience.
So many great things.
So by tapping into that and bytrying to create surroundings
where those are actualized,you're actually creating
well-being.
The R is for positiverelationships, so obviously you
(34:37):
can have bad relationships.
I used to have a really badrelationship with God and then,
when I transformed that intosomething, as well as my family,
when I transformed that andrenegotiated what I needed to be
in that relationship.
It's not perfect, so I'm stillholding those two disparate sort
of thoughts, like people whothink that the people like me do
(34:59):
not belong on this earth, thatGod will destroy me, and love
loving those same people.
Wow, what a challenge.
But that's the relationshippart.
The M is meaning.
You have to create meaning inyour life, which just simply
means you're living for morethan yourself.
That could be through religion,it could be through
(35:19):
spirituality, it could be goingto a nonprofit and dedicating
some of your time outside ofwork.
Going to a nonprofit anddedicating some of your time
outside of work, et cetera, etcetera.
The A is for achievement, andthis is the part where I go back
to what I said in the beginning.
It doesn't have to be I'mgetting a master's degree.
It could be you clean thekitchen.
(35:39):
That's an achievement.
Getting out of the housesometimes is an achievement.
Sleeping eight or nine hourswhatever you need in one night
can be also an achievement.
So the small things, themedium-sized things as well as
the large things, but it doesn'tall have to be big.
And then the V is vitality.
(36:00):
Figure out ways to makeyourself feel that vitality,
whether it be through exercising, doing a puzzle, doing
something nice for someone,sending a nice note, buying a
gift, embracing someone, pettinga cat or a dog if you prefer
All of those things.
So it's a lot to say it all inone sitting, just to answer one
(36:24):
question.
But again, I go back to there'snot going to be an easy, quick
thing to do.
Like, just do this everymorning, make your bed at 8 am
and you'll be good.
That's not how it is.
It's hard, it's multifacetedand you have to really want it,
and then the days that you justcan't deal with it, let it go.
Kertia (36:46):
Yeah, that was a perfect response.
Dr. Josh (36:50):
That was amazing.
Kertia (36:51):
That was amazing, dr Josh, I love that, thank you.
So many things, so many things.
Oh my gosh.
I could continue thisconversation with you for hours.
I'd love to pick your brain,but you said something about
relationships.
I'd like to know how did youbegin to, I guess, reestablish
(37:16):
the relationships or, if not,recreate the meanings of these
relationships around you?
Dr. Josh (37:22):
Yeah, I made a lot of mistakes.
Relationships around you.
Yeah, I made a lot of mistakes.
I did it before I was trulygrounded, and I think that's
okay, because, again, it alwaysstarts with yourself.
What is it you need in order tomaintain your happiness, your
health, all of that, yourflourishing?
(37:43):
And then being grounded in thatthat's hard, because when I
first went to my parents to kindof attempt this renegotiation,
if you will, I felt grounded,but it all fell apart and we
ended up arguing.
I got upset, I stormed away, Iyelled you know all that kind of
(38:06):
stuff.
If I had to do it again, Iwouldn't change anything, though
, because I needed that.
I need that feedback in amoment to know that what I was
doing was a little tooaggressive.
And then I needed to find moreof a balance, that they were not
going to respond well to me,just banging down doors, so to
speak, and coming in and beinglike this is who I am.
(38:26):
You better accept it if youlove me.
It's the same thing with justabout anything in life.
Adults do not respond well whenthey feel like you're taking
away their ability to make adecision.
There's actually it's a conceptin psychology, it's called
psychological reactance.
It's the very reason why, if weagain back to the left and the
(38:48):
right fighting with each otherbecause they both have the truth
, right Quote, unquote the truth.
And they're both doing thingsthe right way, and so now they
have to tell the other personwhat they're doing wrong and the
other side automatically shutsdown.
You're not getting anywhere.
Same thing with religion.
There's so many differentreligions and a lot of the ways
that they're taught is that thisis the true religion, this is
(39:11):
the right way to practice andserve your God, and then what
inevitably ends up happening iswe feel like we have something
this righteous indignation, ifyou will, and other people that
are not doing it are in thewrong.
That's a huge problem, becausewe're not helping each other,
(39:31):
and I had to square that awaywith my family.
I had first come in and be likethis is who I am, but that
wasn't the way that it was goingto work, and what I love about
it is my family.
Now I had options too.
I could say I'll never talk tothem again, but that's just not
who I am.
I go back to my values.
How am I going to create thissort of engagement with life?
(39:57):
I want to keep some semblanceof a relationship with my family
.
That's my choice.
I'm not saying everybody elsehas to do that, but because
that's my goal, now I need tofigure out a way to make that
work.
And so now we're both sort oflike figure out a way to come to
terms.
So there's a win win.
My family hasn't changed theirbeliefs, and neither have I.
(40:19):
I haven't changed my ways, butwe figured out a way to love
each other.
Is it perfect?
No, not at all.
There are times when somethingmight come up, like I recently
got engaged and I knew theanswer to this, but I wanted to
ask anyway will you come to thewedding?
And the answer was no, and Iwasn't shocked by it but, I,
(40:39):
wanted to ask anyway.
So I'm constantly kind of liketesting the waters and wondering
where we're at, and then I getthat reminder again like no, we
haven't changed who we are, butwe still love you, and I think
that's wonderful.
I know not everybody has thatand nor can everyone do that,
but I feel lucky that I was ableto forge that with my family my
immediate family anyway.
(40:59):
So that is something that I tryto apply.
It's like a microcosm for whatI can do in the world.
So every time I come acrosssomebody who also might be
engaging in ideologies that aredestructive to who I am in my
community, I can easily justwalk away, feel hate towards
(41:24):
them and I do sometimes.
But again, going back to thatchallenge, I don't have to.
They're not my family but if Itry to practice this more and
more, will I be helping to makethis world somewhat of a better
place, even if it's just a tiny,tiny bit.
If that's all I can do duringmy lifetime, then I'll take it.
(41:45):
That's what I want to be a partof, knowing that it's easier
said than done, and sometimes Ijust need to walk away because
it's like talking to a rock.
Kertia (41:55):
Yeah, beautiful, congrats on your engagement.
Dr. Josh (41:58):
Oh, thank you.
Exciting stuff ahead yeah,that's amazing.
I love that for you.
Oh, it's like I had to throwthat in there, right, something,
something positive and happyand something to look forward to
.
Yeah, it's not all doom andgloom.
(42:18):
Um, there, there's a silverlining I found to everything,
even when I had.
But it usually happens afterthe fact.
Looking in hindsight, I say,well, please, I didn't like
anyone that told me while I wasgoing through that, oh you'll,
you'll live through this,everything will be fine.
You're young.
I didn't want to hear any ofthat.
(42:38):
I just wanted to be the victimand that's okay.
But in hindsight I thought, wow, yeah, there was a lot of
learning lessons in that.
I appreciate life more than Iperhaps ever would have before.
There's so many things that Ijust appreciate that I'm not
certain I would appreciate atthis level if I hadn't gone
through all the things that Ihave.
So that's the gift that I haveright now.
Kertia (43:00):
And I embrace it.
Amazing, amazing, oh my gosh,this is lovely.
So how would you say, you know?
Because we spoke about likeit's okay to be the victim, but
it's also vital.
It's also important that westep out of that at some point
(43:20):
in time Because, yes, there arethings that happen that are
oftentimes beyond our controland we cannot really control how
other people choose to react tous or treat us.
And so being able to recognizethat bad things happen and you
(43:41):
are experiencing something verydifficult and it's okay to go
through it's actually.
It's actually very importantthat you allow yourself to feel
the emotions during thosemoments and not try to, I guess,
like push them down or, I guess, invalidate yourself because I
(44:03):
think society does a very goodjob at already invalidating us
and our experiences but not toinvalidate yourself or suppress
your emotions, but to actuallyfeel them and go through that
and live in that state.
Right, but at some point wehave to step out of that.
(44:25):
And what I want to ask is howthen can we, you know, when life
is life and the shit stinks?
How can we cultivate resilience?
Dr. Josh (44:41):
Yeah, this is a really important and tough question.
Yeah, I go back to.
It looks different for everysingle person, something I
learned at a very young age.
I've always been interested inacting and performance and when
I first started studying, when Iwent to New York I had my very
(45:02):
first acting class and somepeople might be thinking like
why is he talking about acting?
But don't worry, I'm going totie it together.
So I had a wonderful teacher whosaid your job is to become the
best actor you possibly can, andthat is not by emulating the
most famous actors that are outthere.
(45:23):
It is not by reading about ateacher and trying to emulate
all the things that that teachertaught.
Your job is to pick and choosethe elements, emulate all the
things that that teacher taught.
Your job is to pick and choosethe elements of all the models
and frameworks that exist outthere to create your own.
And that never left me.
(45:44):
It resonated with me so deeplybecause it's not just about
acting, it is about everythingin life.
Your task is not to copysomebody else.
You are unique and so you mustcreate your own model, your own
framework, by picking andchoosing the things that
resonate with you, which couldchange over time.
(46:05):
What resonates with you righthere and now might look so much
different five, 10 years fromnow, and that's okay.
Might look so much differentfive, 10 years from now, and
that's okay.
So what's resonating with me inthe moment as I'm a victim, is
working for me, because I'mprocessing negative emotions and
even calling them negative.
Some people say don't do that,it's just emotion.
You're processing all thesethings that are happening in
(46:25):
real time and whatever thattakes, it takes.
Some people ask well, how doyou know?
How do you know if you're justlike down in the deep too long
and you need to get out?
Well, if you're asking yourselfthat question, then maybe
that's an indication.
But having a relationship withyourself is so, so important and
understanding when you mightneed help to get yourself out,
(46:46):
and it might take more than onechance, or more than one
opportunity, if you will Like.
Sometimes it takes many, many,many different chances or
opportunities for you to get outof something.
So I think about all of thatand I think about having a
support system that is soimportant during those times.
(47:08):
Sometimes you'll get some peoplewill say hey, you know, you've
been crying about this for threedays.
Maybe you ought to sometimesthat that's not the best thing
for you to hear, but thefriendly, loving reminders
occasionally, um could behelpful, because then you could
just say no, this is not theright time for me, I don't care
that it's day three, I don'tcare that it's week three.
(47:29):
You know, it all depends onwhat exactly has been going on.
But for the most part, mostpeople will begin to understand
like, okay, I've processed thisand I think I'm ready.
I think I'm ready to startmaking a change.
I talked to one of my colleaguesnot too long ago and she had a
(47:49):
horrible relationship.
She got married and themarriage ended very badly about
two or three years ago and she'sstill processing that.
And one of the things she hadsaid to me was I can't believe,
I'm still processing this.
And I said but this was thelove of your life.
You had every indication orthought, for good reason, that
(48:12):
this is what you, this would beyour life right and that it all
got taken away in a very bad way.
So the fact that you're stillprocessing that two or three,
who's to tell you that you needto get over it?
No, no, you process thatsomebody dies in your immediate
family.
You may, may never get over it.
(48:32):
You just learn how to live withthat feeling still there, that
emptiness.
So you know it really dependson the circumstances and I think
don't give yourself limits.
Allow yourself to process, likeyou said so very astutely.
Yes, do not try to squelch,push down, deny yourself that.
(48:55):
And that's hard because societyis telling you everything else
like, no, no, positive vibesonly.
It's like well, what does thatmean?
If I'm not feeling positive,that I need to dismiss myself, I
can't be part of society andculture, yeah, no, no, that's
toxic.
We need to embrace all of thosethings and I think we also need
(49:20):
to do better at embracing it,because let's acknowledge that
we're not taught how to embracethose things and so, as we adult
, that's when we start learning.
So we're going to make a lot ofmistakes and that's okay.
Kertia (49:36):
Yeah, and just linking that to the self-acceptance
space.
Right, I think that goes handin hand with everything that you
just said, because you know,being able to acknowledge where
we are and just being okay withthat oh my gosh, yes right.
(49:57):
Yeah, I'd love for you to speakon that because, um, I think
when you think aboutself-acceptance, it seems like
you know, like it seems likeit's something going in line
with being positive and like allthe nice empowering.
Empowering fluffy stuff thatfeels good, but also a part of
that is also embracing where youare in the now.
(50:20):
That's right.
If everything in your lifedoesn't look the way you want it
to look, if your relationshipsare a mess, if you're still
trying to figure out what yourcareer path is, if you're still
struggling with identity, withyour identity and all the things
right.
Being able to accept yourselfas is now is also.
(50:42):
It's as important as imaginingthe self, or recognizing the
self, that you want to be right,Recognizing the self that you
want to be right.
Dr. Josh (50:52):
Absolutely.
From the moment that we areborn, our bodies, our minds, our
spirits, if you will, aregiving us signals.
They're talking to us, yeah.
Our task, then, is tounderstand what those signals
mean, and that's very difficultto do if you don't have a
relationship with yourself, ifyou've been ignoring all the
(51:13):
signals, the chatter, if youwill, and just saying whatever,
or putting layers upon layers onit.
The other thing is, when youforge or create an identity that
is not true to who you are, youend up validating an identity
that doesn't truly exist.
And so when you go home atnight and you feel empty inside,
(51:35):
it's because you're not trulyvalidating who you are.
You're validating somethingelse that doesn't even exist.
I think the other thing is,once you start to have that
relationship, you tend tounderstand where you gravitate
and where you lean more towardsas a human being, so you can
help yourself kind of I wouldn'teven say balance out, because
(51:58):
balance kind of gives this ideathat there's a one-to-one ratio
and it doesn't always look thatway.
Sometimes someone's balancemight be totally off kilter for
someone else.
One of the things I learnedthat I thought was really
fruitful was negativity,generally speaking, works much
differently in the brain forhuman beings than positive
(52:19):
emotions and positive thoughts,and the reason why which sounds
very logical is because ourbrains are meant to take
negativity above and beyondpositive things to help us
survive.
So you walk into a room andyou're scanning, and this is in
a fraction of a second.
So it's not your conscious minddoing it Although your
conscious mind can actually alsodo it as an additional layer,
(52:41):
but you are constantly scanningeverywhere you go for danger.
That's how your brain is built.
It's because we are meant tosurvive.
The only time that's nothappening is when we are
creating layers upon layers orinvolving ourselves in substance
use.
To where that starts to changehow our brain is able to scan
(53:04):
the environment.
So once you understand that,then it makes sense that you
could have a best friend that'swith you for five years and then
they do that one thing thatreally steams you and everything
else, at least for that momentand perhaps for the time being,
melts all away and you'refixated on this thing that has
(53:25):
harmed or hurt you.
That makes sense.
So how does that happen in theworld?
Once you realize that we'repicking up all the time on these
negative things as a way tosurvive, then you can actively
tell yourself I need to seek outthe good so that I can help to
(53:47):
again.
Maybe it's not a balance, maybeit's more like a synergy, maybe
it's more like a harmonic wayof looking at the world.
How do I find my harmony?
And the science has been reallyfruitful for me, because this
is an average, but for everynegative thing that happens, you
need about three to seven goodthings to help to counterbalance
(54:07):
that.
So it's not just like you haveone negative thing and then if I
think of one positive thing,it's good.
So your friend harms you.
So it's not just like you haveone negative thing and then if I
think of one positive thing,it's good.
So your friend harms you.
Hopefully it's not too bad of aharm.
Maybe it's just disrespect orsomething.
You need to consciously thinkabout all the things that have
gone well, and that's the samewith any relationship.
(54:28):
It could be a boss, it could bea significant other, and this
is how you help yourself.
Now, going back to like that'ssomething that I feel like once
you learn, you can try tocontrol.
There are things that also havehappened in our lives, like we
grow up in a Western world butwe're taught certain things from
a very young age, especiallyhere in the United States.
(54:50):
It's all about independentthinking and what we call the
independent control.
I'm out for myself, I need tomake it, I have to live the
dream, all those things.
As we get older we see therealities are not really tied to
that, but what we need tounderstand is that, because
we've been taught that for agood portion of our lives,
(55:11):
especially those who've gone topublic school, there are ways
that that is being enacted inour everyday situations without
us even realizing and knowing it.
So when you start to look atthe literature at least for me I
thought to myself well, what'sthe opposite of that?
It's interdependence.
Kertia (55:29):
Yeah.
Dr. Josh (55:30):
And so what are all the ways that I can help myself
thread more interdependence inmy life?
Now, why is that my charge?
Because I know where my go-tois.
From my formative years, whenmy brain is soaking up all this
information, I was taught frommany, many different people and
in many different ways thatindependence is the best way to
(55:53):
go.
That's what's going to make yousuccessful, and I know as an
adult that's not always true andit's also an extreme and it's
also an all or nothing.
So I'm utilizing all thesetools to find out where am I on
this spectrum and how do I finda way, or some semblance, to
create more harmony in my life?
(56:13):
First, you have to know whereyou stand on that spectrum and
if you think about, a lot ofhuman phenomenon can exist on a
spectrum and they actually do.
And if you think of it that wayand it's not about I'm on the
left, you're on the right.
It's like here I am today, Imight be here tomorrow, from the
(56:34):
left to the right, and all ofthat's okay.
I feel more balanced here.
Even though it's leaning moretowards the left, somebody else
might feel opposite.
You know what I meanRelationship or that semblance
of some type of harmony cannotexist unless you know where you
(56:54):
stand.
You cannot know where you standunless you know who you are.
You cannot know who you are ifyou are not listening to
yourself.
You cannot listen to yourself ifyou've spent the majority of
your life building up layer uponlayer of muck, if you will,
because when you wake up in themorning, this used to happen to
(57:15):
me all the time.
Last thing I'll say for thispart, I would have this gigantic
headache and I would say tomyself oh my gosh, am I sick, is
there something wrong?
And I wouldn't know why,because I wasn't drinking out
the last night.
So I've built layer upon layerand I have no way of truly
(57:39):
understanding what's happeningto me in that moment.
Those are choices that I'vemade.
So that's a different sort ofexample, because it's about like
activities that you did thenight before.
But think about all thedifferent ways that we kind of
add these layers, whether it geton yeah, they could be
narratives that we tellourselves.
There's so many different waysto do that, and so clearing that
(58:03):
should be an activity that wedo constantly, because as human
beings we're naturallygravitating towards all of those
layers.
Clear the way, so you canlisten to yourself, so that you
can try to live the best lifeyou can, even if it's just for
the moment, and then try againin the next moment, if you can.
Don't let it go Amazing amazing, amazing.
Kertia (58:27):
So you said so many amazing things today.
Dr. Josh (58:40):
I'll ask you about your work now um to tell me
about what, what you're workingon and all the all the good
things, sure.
So I've been embedded innon-profit, the non-profit
industry now, for 13 years, andmy focus is on research and
evaluation.
As I mentioned, I got adoctorate in industrial
organizational psychology, andso I utilize IO psychology
(59:02):
principles, as they refer to itas, not just in the workplace,
as I mentioned, but also in myvery life, right Knowing that
I'm the same person when I leavework for the most part.
I mean, there are nuances andchanges that I make, just like
I'm not going to curse in frontof my grandmother.
That will not happen, becauseshe will literally smack me, and
(59:24):
that, to me, is not abuse.
I'm the one who abused therelationship by cursing, but
it's the same thing.
Like you know, we're nuanced indifferent scenarios, situations
depending on who we're talkingto, and that's okay.
What I don't want to happen islosing myself.
I want to be firm in my values,which will not change, and if
(59:47):
they do, though, you know, overtime then I'll reevaluate and
make sure that I'm living outthose values.
But, um, what has really beenthe gift of working in
non-profits is obviously notworking for a profit motive has
been really the biggest thingfor me.
It doesn't make everythingperfect, like there are
(01:00:07):
non-profits, that that run likejust like for-profit entities,
and there are toxic people inall different types of
organizations.
But what I do love is myability to align with my purpose
has been extremely importantthat I feel like I'm working
towards the betterment ofsociety, even if it's one person
(01:00:30):
at a time, through a missionorientation that I can jump on
board with and say, yes, I wantto be a part of this.
40 plus hours a week to me is alot, and I want to be able to
feel like, when I come home fromthat, that I'm actually
contributing to something andthat's me and that will never go
(01:00:52):
away.
So if I have to pivot and be ina job that doesn't offer me
that, I will still apply theprinciples.
It'll just be a lot harder forme to do so.
So I say that because there areplenty of people who are in
for-profit jobs and entitiesthat can create just as much
well-being and whatever else.
(01:01:13):
They want to help their livesflourish, and that's really what
encapsulates my career.
Those are the underlyingmechanisms that help me to
understand am I getting the bestout of my current position?
What's next for me?
All those things are answeredby that through line.
Is it going to serve otherpeople?
(01:01:36):
Also, I have to serve myselfbecause you know, I mean if I'm
not here, if I'm not healthy,but inevitably, especially for
work, it's about doing that.
So, uh, that's been my life forthe last 13 years and, um, I'm
really proud of that and I lookforward to continuing that for
perhaps another 20 years or so.
We'll see.
Kertia (01:01:58):
I love that.
I love that.
So one last question before Ihead out, and then you can tell
us where we can find your memoirand anything else that you'd
like us to check out?
Sure, you'd like us to checkout.
Sure, you know.
Thinking about your experiencein the grand scheme of things,
from where you've been to whereyou now are.
(01:02:20):
You mentioned purpose there.
I'd love to know you know fromwho you were before and the
version of you now?
How do you define purpose?
What is purpose for you?
Dr. Josh (01:02:32):
Oh my gosh, I love this question.
It's such a great question andit resonates with me so deeply.
I can't speak for everyone,obviously, but I think our
purpose is something that weunderstand at a very, very young
age young age, I know.
(01:02:54):
For me that was definitely thecase, but again, all these
layers that were built up overlife had to be removed in order
for me to go back to what I feltwas my purpose.
So some of my earliest memorieson the good side now, because I
talked about some of my earliestmemories being confused and
maybe not so good, but this wasa really great memory that I had
(01:03:15):
and a little funny too when I,when I recount it.
So I would be out with my mom,specifically, me and her would
do all sorts of things that Iremember as a toddler, and I
would run towards strangers andI was so tiny, all I could do
was like grasp their legs.
That's how small I was andthat's what I remember.
(01:03:36):
I remember running up tostrangers.
I didn't know that there werestrangers, I didn't even know,
what a stranger was.
All I knew that I was going upand grabbing their legs and
hugging them as tight as I could.
My mom would take me aside andshe would get so angry with me.
I remember this.
You can't do that.
No, don't do that.
(01:03:57):
Someone someday is going totake advantage of that.
You can't, you can't just dothat, sorry, and I would get so
upset I was crying.
What was going on there?
My assessment of the situationwas that I wanted to embrace
people and it didn't matter whothey were, that my job was to
(01:04:18):
embrace them.
Now I don't run up to strangerstoday and hug them.
That might put me in a veryawkward position, but I can
still embrace people.
It doesn't mean literally,figuratively.
I can find all sorts of ways toembrace people and I feel like
(01:04:39):
that's my purpose.
It's going to look differentfor everyone and maybe I fooled
myself into thinking that's mypurpose, but I don't think so.
Whenever I talk about it,whenever I think about what that
felt like as a kid and goingback to that, there's something
within me that just lights upand I feel just like everything
(01:05:01):
else that's come into my lifemultiple times.
I don't know if we can call itthe universe or God or whatever
you like, but there's a reasonwhy it keeps coming back to me.
But there's a reason why itkeeps coming back to me, and to
me that means that I have tolisten to it and that's how I
fulfill my purpose.
So that's how I define that.
Kertia (01:05:23):
Beautiful.
I love that and it's so trueand I definitely see that
because when we're kids andwe're still in that, we're still
connected to that purest,truest aspect of ourselves,
before all the layers of societyand conditioning and
(01:05:44):
programming gets laid onto us,we know we follow that intuition
that God spark, whatever thatis, whatever you want to call it
.
We follow that callingnaturally.
We naturally gravitate towardsthe things that make us light up
(01:06:07):
, that makes us expand, thatmakes us feel expansive.
And that was it for you,absolutely so I truly do.
Dr. Josh (01:06:28):
Yeah, and that is it.
That is pretty much youconnecting to the tr every year
for my parents and they would beBible stories, because those
are the only stories that wewere allowed to kind of read and
listen to.
But I naturally without evenknowing what acting was, what
the stage or theater was, orstorytelling, I was doing that,
(01:06:49):
and so embracing people throughstorytelling is truly whether I
do that through research orthrough an actual production
that I engage in that's on thetheater or short film those are
all things that have beenmainstays in my life.
As long as that story has amessage to help people become
(01:07:11):
better, I'm all about it, and sothat has been another sort of
like through line for me thatexisted ever since I was a
little kid.
So, yeah, I mean, I think Idon't think I know that's
exactly what I'm here for.
Kertia (01:07:27):
And.
Dr. Josh (01:07:28):
I hope that other people are able to find that
very thing as well, becausethat's where your true
authenticity lies.
Kertia (01:07:35):
Exactly, yeah, yeah, awesome.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
This was an amazingconversation.
Now, where can we find yourwork, your memoir, anything else
that you're working on?
Dr. Josh (01:07:46):
Yes, well, and thank you.
That's very nice of you, Verynice of you.
So my website's the easiest wayto get a hold of me.
That is drjoshsolutions,spelled just like the word, with
an S at the end and that's inplace of a com or org.
So it's drjoshsolutions, andyou'll find my contact
(01:08:11):
information, my social media,the book that we talked about,
just some other little blurbshere and there about how I think
about work and IO, psychologygenerally speaking, and anyone
that's interested can feel freeto send me an email and I'd be
happy to respond to that.
Kertia (01:08:30):
So yeah, perfect.
Thank you so much.
Dr. Josh (01:08:34):
Oh, you're so welcome.
Thank you again for having meon your show.
Kertia (01:08:38):
Thank you so much, everyone, for tuning in.
This was such an amazingconversation with Dr Josh.
I hope you enjoyed it as muchas I did and, as usual, text us
your input, reach out to us andtell us what you think, or just
to say hey, hi, we alwaysrespond.
We love when you reach out andyou'll find Dr Josh's
(01:09:02):
information in the show notes ofthis recording.
Please reach out to him aboutany inquiries you may have or
just to connect.
All right, thank you so much.
Until next time.
Hello everybody.
I hope you are all having anamazing, amazing summer break.
Summer started off somehow alittle bit shaky for me.
I recently got robbed, my carwas broken into and it was not a
(00:20):
fun experience.
I am still trying to unraveleverything that came from that.
It was a bit traumatizing forme.
To be honest, it's notsomething that I've ever
experienced in my life.
I haven't ever experiencedanything like that.
So it was jarring.
(00:42):
It kind of shocked my systemfor a bit and yeah, but the
recovery process hasn't been sobad and thankfully the aftermath
of that wasn't so.
It was heavy, but it wasn't asheavy as it could have been.
(01:02):
Let's say I'm safe, everyone issafe, so that is the most
important thing and anythingthat is lost can be recovered.
I mean, it's just materialthings at the end of the day,
and the most important thing islife and health and safety.
(01:25):
So you know, coming back fromthat, I've just been so grateful
, so so grateful about howeverything has turned out.
There are so many lessons thatcame out of that experience
alone, so many lessons.
That has kind of toucheddifferent aspects of my life.
(01:50):
Actually, it's crazy how onething can lead to so much, can
teach you so much and I'velearned so much from it and I'm
just so grateful and I'velearned so much from it and I'm
just so grateful for everythingthat has occurred and for how
easy the recovery process hasbeen for me.
(02:13):
And me saying that the recoveryprocess has been easy, it's not
to negate how difficult thesituation has been to deal with,
how hurtful it was to me.
But you know, having faced alot of challenges in life, I
(02:38):
think I have developed a certainsense of awareness and a
certain level of resilience and,as with anything that happens
in life because, as we all know,life be life in the level of
consciousness with which youapproach any situation largely
(03:01):
determines the outcome.
And I think you know, with thatbeing said, it's just a matter
of perspective and how youchoose to respond to life's
situation.
A lot is happening in the worldright now and many people are
(03:23):
going through it.
You know there is a lot ofchaotic energy out there and, as
a part of my own healingprocess dealing with this and
just regular life stuff, Ireally thought that it was
(03:44):
important for me to send healingprayers to the person who
vandalized my car and stole mypossessions, my earthly
possessions, my earthlypossessions.
(04:21):
Um, yeah, I, I thought that itwas very important for me to do
that and you know, when you'rein pain, it is so easy to create
more pain.
So, as hurtful as thatexperience has been for me, I
(05:04):
have nothing but transparentabout the beginning of my summer
and what that has been like.
I'm still looking forward tohaving an amazing year ahead.
I'm still optimistic and, yeah,still pushing through.
Yeah, still pushing through.
(05:29):
And speaking of that, I feellike, with everything that I
have been through in life, Irealize how resilient I am and I
think I don't give myselfenough credit for that.
Yeah, I think a lot of thetimes when we go through things
and when we go through life andthe way that we come back from a
lot of the things that we gothrough, I think we don't give
(05:51):
ourselves enough credit for howwe handle situations, for how we
survive situations, and wedefinitely all need to give
(06:11):
ourselves more grace and morelove and more compassion.
So, yeah, speaking of that, Irecently had such an inspiring
conversation with Dr JoshuaCaraballo.
(06:32):
He's an industrialorganizational psychologist and
we spoke about thetransformative power of
resilience and self-acceptance,which is also one of the key
messages within his memoir I'mNot Dead Yet.
I love that.
Love the title.
Dr Josh is such a beautifulsoul.
I had such a pleasure speakingwith him.
(06:52):
He seeks to inspire othersthrough storytelling, which is
really special, especially forthose who have been historically
marginalized and oppressed.
Been historically marginalizedand oppressed, and touching on
his own personal story of beinga cisgendered gay Puerto Rican
cancer survivor who struggledwith his identity on so many
(07:14):
levels.
Dr Josh truly delivered anempowering talk during our
exchange and I hope thisconversation is a reminder for
you that whatever it is that youmay be going through, that is
not the end, that you can makeit, even when it feels
impossible.
All right.
(07:40):
So your introduction to me youspoke about various adversities
that you went through and youknow like that came out, even
with your memoir.
But definitely I want toaddress the piece around your
sexuality and what that journeyhas been like for you and why it
(08:00):
was so important for you totell your story.
Dr. Josh (08:04):
Absolutely, and thank you so much for having me on
your show.
I really do appreciate it.
My queerness, from the earliestmemory that I can remember
anyway, was me as a young lad,if you will not, knowing
anything about sex, sexualityEven from a physical standpoint,
(08:27):
I was not in a place to where Icould be aroused in a way that
you know like sexually aroused,and I don't mean that to be like
rude or sound gross or anythinglike that, it's just to put
things into perspective.
I understood what an attractionwas, based on emotion and some
(08:50):
physicality as well, but it wasmuch different.
It was almost like a spiritualfeeling and the affinity that I
had towards the male form andthis was was.
So, back again to my earliestmemories, just looking at like a
jc penny catalog, which I don'teven think they make anymore,
(09:12):
send out to home.
So I was born in 1977, just togive you an indication.
So we're talking about likemaybe I was six or seven and as
I was, I would flip through thecatalog.
I would have this visceralreaction, like I said, to that
male form.
Again, did not understand,didn't have the words or the
(09:32):
language to attach to that, justa true understanding of what
that was.
Obviously, I was able to putmore words to that, but it was
scary for me because I grew upin the Jehovah's Witness
household.
That also taught me at a veryyoung age that a man who sleeps
(09:57):
with a man to quote from theBible is an abomination.
What I felt was my true senseof being and what and who I
wanted to love, versus what Iwas being taught at a very young
age, was wrong, and people dealwith this in so many different
ways.
The way that I dealt with itwas to suppress and to try to
(10:18):
change myself, and the more Idid that, the harder it became.
(10:41):
And the more I did that, theharder it became, the harder it
became for me to live day to dayand be happy lot, because I had
, uh, effeminate behaviorsgrowing up that I tried to
correct a lot, so the typicalsort of like, um, effeminate
behaviors that you would thinkabout although that in of itself
(11:02):
could be a whole discussionright.
Like we bring up our children,for the most part not everyone
Like for men to act masculine.
You must not do this or that,you can't walk or talk a certain
way, and so I fit the bill, ifyou will, for being effeminate
(11:22):
and because of that I really hadto bear the brunt of these
social I don't know what word touse like social sanctioning
that I had.
So it wasn't just for my family, it was from the people in the
church, it was also when I wentto school Again, my earliest
memories.
(11:43):
As time progressed, I waseventually able to leave my home
at the age of 18 and I went toNew York to study and, as you
might imagine, everything that Iwas suppressing for about 18
years of my life I did.
It was time for me to do allthose things good, bad,
(12:04):
indifferent, whatever it was, Iwas doing it.
And just a few months afterthat I was diagnosed with
Hodgkin's lymphoma, and it wasin stage four.
Now, from a practicalperspective and, of course,
years later removed from thatsituation, it is obvious that
being in stage four meant thatthis was something that was
(12:25):
growing inside of me the cancerfor quite some time.
But from the perspective of ayoung man at the age of 18 who
finally let loose and did allthe things that he's ever wanted
to do and then got cancer to me, it was very clear during that
time that God had just punishedme and he was telling me
(12:47):
something loud and clear youfinally did what you were not
supposed to do and now you haveto pay the price.
So, as you might imagine, thatreally messes with you, messes
with your brain, messes withyour emotion and messes with
your ability to become an adult.
It messes with your emotion, itmesses with your ability to
become an adult, and for manyyears thereafter, there were
(13:08):
multiple layers of my identity,of various things that I had to
go through, obviously includingcancer and, thankfully,
surviving.
It did come back a second timeand at that point in time I
thought I was done, but I'm not.
I'm here and like the book, butI'm not.
I'm here and, like the booksays, I'm not dead yet.
(13:35):
So, as long as I'm alive, I'mnow understanding not just now,
but for the last, I'd say, 10plus years, I've finally started
to click and understand.
All of these experiences werefor a reason.
All of these things that I wasable to get through and survive
is to make me a better person,and so it becomes my job to
learn those lessons, to applythose lessons, to continuously
(13:59):
practice being a better person,which will take the rest of my
life to do, which is fine andthen also to help other people
who are going through similarthings, whether it be exactly
the same, like going throughcancer, being a gay youth
growing up, or somethingdifferent, but still tied to
that, because we all know whatoppression feels like being
(14:19):
called out for your identitywhen you know deep down inside
that there's nothing wrong withthat, that it is actually a
natural thing to do, but goingagainst the grain where society
for the most part is telling you, no, you're not supposed to be
here, or if you are, you're notsupposed to be where you're at.
You're supposed to be down inthe trenches for the rest of
(14:41):
your life because you're notworthy of living a life like
some of these other people might.
Kertia (14:48):
Yeah, you have such a powerful message.
One thing I'd love to know youmentioning when you first got
the cancer, when you were 18,when you were doing all the
things and thinking like, okay,now, God, this must be my
punishment for doing the badthing, right?
How did you then change yourmindset to step into this more
(15:11):
empowered version of yourself?
Because cancer is no joke, andof course, I understand.
When you are faced with allthese social constructs of what
you should be, what youshouldn't be, what it means to
be a man and what it means to bemasculine and you being seen as
the opposite of all of that,being faced with all of those
(15:33):
things, the meanings and thesymbolism and how that was
projected onto you from such anearly age, from family, from
friends and whoever else, howdid you manage to change your
mindset from I'm being punishedto no, I am okay, there's
(15:56):
nothing wrong with me?
Dr. Josh (15:58):
Yeah, it's a great question and the answer is very
multifaceted.
There's so many differentthings that had to happen for me
to get to the place that I amnow, and I would venture to say
it would look different foreveryone, but the trajectory
that I had to take was reallyabout me going down a dark path
(16:20):
for quite some time and thenrealizing that that dark path
was not the best for me and thenfiguring out ways to undo all
of that.
So I ended up abusing drugs andalcohol for quite some time,
because after I was diagnosed asbeing in remission from cancer,
(16:41):
you would think I would be soelated and so thankful to have
my life back, so to speak, andmaybe you want to catch up on
some of those years.
It was about five years oftreatment and waiting with scans
just to make sure that thecancer was gone.
But that's not what happened tome.
I was lost.
(17:01):
I didn't know where I belonged.
I was lost.
I didn't know where I belonged.
I tended to gravitate back andforth to the extreme.
So you know, trying to changemyself completely and make
myself masculine and make myselfstraight, and at one point even
trying to make myself as whiteas possible, because I thought
(17:22):
that's what would make mesuccessful.
So, there's a lot of layers thatI had built up upon myself,
that were fake, that were nottruly who I was, and so it
doesn't happen overnight.
I had to spend a lot of time,many years, undoing all those
layers so I can get back to thecore of who I am and fall in
love with that, and for me, itrequired a lot.
(17:43):
It required first making aconviction that I would stop
treating myself and my body in away that was so bad and so
unhealthy, so that I could clearthe way for understanding what
all these layers were.
That I added as a way tosurvive.
(18:04):
Understanding what all theselayers were, that I added as a
way to survive, and that theywere no longer serving me, would
not serve me moving, they wouldnot serve me moving forward
Sorry, if I could say it rightand that I also need to
renegotiate every single one ofmy relationships.
So I had to look at therelationship that I have with my
parents, my extended family,the relationship that I had with
(18:28):
myself, which is, first andforemost, the relationship that
I had with religion generallyspeaking, because I am not a
Jehovah's Witness.
I think that's obvious.
But what it also does forsomeone like myself is it kind
of gives you a bad taste aboutreligion altogether.
Kertia (18:44):
Yeah.
Dr. Josh (18:46):
And yet that is yet another way of looking at the
world and all or nothingthinking there's good, bad and
everything in between ineverything that you look at.
And so I think religion is nodifferent for me.
Even if I eschew religionaltogether, I think it's still
good to look back and find thepieces that work for me.
(19:06):
Yeah, and so I still believe ingod, and so what I did is I
just renegotiated what god lookslike to me.
He is not a hateful person orentity, he, she, whatever you
prefer, um, and he loves me.
He wants me to be here.
He knows I'm not a bad person.
(19:27):
See, I say all these things outloud, but I have to truly
believe that, and that's wheremy faith comes in.
Faith is the expectation ofsomething not yet beheld, which
I think is amazing.
All the great things that itcan do to you might feel like an
exercise in silliness, but whenyou hold onto something like
(19:50):
that, it can really change yourlife, and I needed that.
I needed to rethink what Godwas and is and can be, and that,
along with everything else thatI renegotiated in my life, was
but a part of how I becamebetter.
The last thing I'll mention fornow because, like I said, it's
(20:12):
so multifaceted that any one ofthese aspects that I utilized in
my life I could talk about foran entire hour.
But psychology, psychology hasbeen very helpful, whether it be
from the helping relationshipsthat I had one-on-one with a
psychologist therapist, orwhether it be something outside
of that, like the studies that Idid to gain my doctoral degree
(20:34):
in psychology.
Although it was focused onwhat's called industrial
organizational psychology, a lotof it is drawn from the
clinical psychology literature.
So it's just applieddifferently and, as you might
guess, whatever you do in theworkplace, for most people
anyway carries over into yourlife, unless you're in the movie
(20:57):
or in the TV show Severance.
So that again, I know it's along answer and I haven't even
hit on every aspect, but I thinkthose are the major things that
have truly made a differencefor me oh, my goodness.
Kertia (21:16):
Yeah, you said so many phenomenal things.
Um, what would you say has beenthe most challenging part of
all of that?
Because I can only imagine whatyour experience has been like,
especially as a man.
We all know how.
(21:37):
You know it's bad enough whenyou think about everything that
the queer community has to dealwith, but then, when it comes to
men, it's just like so muchheavier and there's just so much
more violence geared towardsmen as well, and for you having
(21:58):
to go through, I guess,struggling with accepting
yourself.
You even mentioned yourethnicity.
Like even that aspect of it,like that is just like so
layered, it's a lot of layers,and I can only imagine what that
journey has been like.
(22:19):
It's like excruciating.
I can only imagine appreciating, I can only imagine right.
So I'd love to know, like whatcould you say has been one of
the most?
I think that's like there'sjust I don't know, I don't even
know if this is like a properquestion, because, like I don't.
(22:39):
How do you choose what is themost challenging out of?
Dr. Josh (22:42):
all of that like that is crazy.
I'm with you, but I think it'sa great.
Kertia (22:49):
It's a great question, yeah but I want to know, like,
how do you take out of, like Iguess, the most challenging
aspect of that to create thislike really profound work that
you're doing right now, thememoir that you have?
Like how did that work for you?
Dr. Josh (23:10):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it is really difficult to pinpoint
one thing.
I'll give you a couple.
So one of the things for me wasreally figuring out a way to
stop playing the victim, butalso being okay with being the
victim, because I actually was avictim in so many different
(23:30):
ways the way I grew up.
I'm a puerto rican, so in termsof my heritage, um, being
latino under that umbrella, ifyou will although some, uh,
puerto ricans will will notidentify that way, but I'm okay
with it that adds, like you said, a whole other layer to it and
(23:50):
I can easily go back to being avictim.
But at some point in my lifeand I've pinpointed when that
was.
It was after cancer, maybe afew years after that I just told
myself I can't, this is not theway I want to live.
I don't want to be the victim.
There's always something orsomeone or a group of people
(24:13):
that are faring much worse thanmyself, even with all those
layers that you mentioned.
For instance, black trans womenare dying, are being killed.
I see the connections nowbetween masculinity, femininity.
I mean I wrote a wholedissertation on it.
So we won't get into that wholething unless you'd like to get
(24:35):
into it more, but I see thoseconnections in life because of
what I've gone through, and somy second really big learning
lesson is being able to hold twodisparate, polar opposite sort
of ideals and find a way tofunction.
(24:56):
So you look at the sort oftrajectory again of my life and
the mainstays that have comethrough being effeminate versus
understanding masculinity polaropposites in my mind or can be,
and me having to find a way to.
Where do I fit into that sothat I can feel comfortable with
(25:20):
who I am and what I bring tothe table?
It's the same thing withreligion.
So you have religion on one endand its extremist values or
theories, and then on the otherend you have people who just say
there is no such thing as God.
I believe in science.
Although we could poke holes inthat as well, there is some
(25:42):
science that kind of verifies atleast that there is some sort
of creator out there oh yeah butI don't mean to get on too many
tangents, but my point is,because this is part of it there
are nuances to everything.
So when you start to break itdown and this has been really
helpful for me as well, for thepolitics of our nation in the
united states as of late, wherethings have become a lot more
(26:05):
extreme and it's just too easyto pick one side, because that's
a way that we save cognitions,energy, et cetera.
But it's a shortcut.
It's a shortcut tounderstanding the nuances of
life, and I have to acknowledgethat it's going to take a lot
more energy whether it beemotional, cognitive or
(26:27):
otherwise for me to understandthose nuances.
But it is worth every secondBecause that's where the value
is.
And so when I find myself goingback to those all or nothing
sort of stances which I will dobecause I'm a human being and
all of us do it it's one of ourbiases, that's built into our
brain and it's also a way, likeI said, for us to save energy.
(26:48):
So when I see myself involvedin a shortcut, so to speak,
where it's left or right, etcetera, et cetera, I try to
question myself and challengemyself, and that's been so, so
helpful.
That's a really broad umbrellathat I've utilized in so many
different ways, but it justkeeps coming back to me, and so
(27:08):
I think that's been one of thosehuge learning lessons for me,
and I love talking about itbecause anyone could apply that
in their lives right here, rightnow.
You don't have to wait.
Kertia (27:19):
Yeah, yes, the everything you just said, yes,
the everything you just said.
Yes to everything you just said.
Dr. Josh (27:40):
Yes to everything you just said.
Yeah, oh gosh.
So tell me, tell us about youreverything that's happened in my
life.
There's been a lot of feedbackthat I've gotten reviews, et
cetera, where people have saidthis was so grueling for me to
get through.
But I'm so glad I read it,because we need stories like
(28:00):
this, and that has really warmedmy heart.
It is my first book, so thereare, just to be super honest,
some editorial mistakes, but youcan still get through the book
and understand it.
And I just say that because Idon't want to come across like,
yeah, I've accomplished thesethings and I'm a perfect person.
I'm not.
I make mistakes all the time.
(28:22):
I'm still struggling.
I'm not struggling as much as Iused to, but I will struggle
for the rest of my life andthat's fine, that's great, I'm
embracing that and that's what'sreally part of what's making me
a better person.
So writing this book the firstbook I've ever written and put
out there is not a perfect book,but it is one to where you will
(28:43):
know everything about me upuntil this point in my life
probably more than you everwanted to know.
But the point is not to justlike divulge everything and make
you feel like I've overshared.
It's really to providesolidarity and hope and to show
that, no matter how dark thingsget, no matter how bad it gets
(29:04):
in your life, there's alwayssomething that you can look
forward to.
And I know it's harder for somethan others, especially in this
day and age, but that hope isso, so worth it and I'm hoping
that I can give just a smidge ofthat to people who read the
book.
Kertia (29:23):
That's beautiful.
Now I got to read it.
Dr. Josh (29:30):
Please, yes, or you can listen to it as well.
It's an audio book, it is ane-book and a regular softcover
book.
So choices, you have options.
Kertia (29:41):
Amazing, amazing, yeah, oh my gosh.
You mentioned so many importantthings.
It's hard for me to pinpointwhat I want to, like ask you,
but you know one thing, onething that stood out to know
(30:03):
what does your, I guess, whatdoes your maintenance, your
mental health maintenance, looklike?
Now?
You mentioned therapy before.
You mentioned psychology.
You know, of course, thestruggle.
It never ends.
There is always some aspectsthat comes up from time to time
(30:24):
that we still have to address.
So I'd like to know, like howare you?
What is your healing journey,or mental health journey?
What does that look like foryou right now?
Dr. Josh (30:38):
Absolutely so.
Fair notice, this will be maybea longer response than usual.
No worries, I'm already a veryverbose person, but it's an
important question and it's notjust an easy answer for me.
The first thing is, if youdon't have the energy, the
(31:02):
capacity and you just want tosit and do nothing, that's okay.
I think for me, I've had to bemore and more okay with that.
I am the type of person thatwants to achieve and achieve,
and I think we live in a world,especially in the Western sort
of predilection that we aretaught from very young age you
(31:24):
got to go, go go, you got to do,do, do.
This is how you make it, and aswe get older, those things
become more and more difficult.
We have more well, just a bunchof different things happening
simultaneously, especially now.
So I think one of the biggestthings is just practice kindness
, patience, compassion withyourself and be okay with just
(31:49):
sitting around and doing nothingand don't try to tell yourself
that you're doing somethingwrong, bad, that you're lazy, et
cetera.
Those are messages from theworld that don't need to apply
to you Now.
If you're doing that for months, that's different.
Right, that's like yeah, sojust monitor it and see how long
you need to be in that space.
(32:09):
But outside of that, when I dohave the cognition and the
ability and the capacity to workon what's going to keep up my
mental health, there's a modelthat I use.
It's called PERMA, it's anacronym P-E-R-M-A and sometimes
it's referred to as PERMA-V,with a V at the end, and I'll
(32:30):
try to be as quick as possiblehere.
So the P is positive emotion.
You have a cookie, yourfavorite cookie.
Mine is like a soft batch ofwhite chocolate, macadamia nut.
I'll have to be careful,because now I'm vegan and the
white chocolate isn't alwaysvegan, but that is like wow,
(32:51):
that is something that makes mefeel so good.
That's positive emotion.
It could be through sex, itcould be through playing a video
game.
There's so many different waysyou do it.
But here's the caveat about theP, if you will it.
But here's the caveat about theP, if you will.
There is a threshold by which,if you go past that threshold,
you will start to havediminishing returns.
(33:11):
Example go back to the cookie.
After my third one, I'm notfeeling so great anymore.
In fact, if I have four or five, I'm probably feeling a little
bit sick.
That's for me, and everyone hastheir own threshold.
But when you engage in positiveemotion as it's defined under
PERMA or PERMA-V, you have to becareful.
You don't want all of yourfeel-goods, if you will, to come
(33:34):
from that one part, which iswhy there's other aspects to the
acronym.
The E is engagement, and thatcan mean so many different
things to so many differentpeople.
However, engagement in thisparticular case means that
you're engaging with the worldby utilizing your inner values
(33:55):
and obviously, in order to dothat, you have to know yourself.
You have to know what thosevalues are.
Here's something to keep inmind Values cannot be negative.
Negative, they cannot bedetrimental to yourself or the
world.
So if somebody is thinking,well, you know what?
If somebody's values is to goand, you know, harm people, that
cannot be a value.
(34:15):
A value that is lived in actionevery day is a beautiful thing.
That actually brings comfort,hope, resilience, oh resilience.
So many great things.
So by tapping into that and bytrying to create surroundings
where those are actualized,you're actually creating
well-being.
The R is for positiverelationships, so obviously you
(34:37):
can have bad relationships.
I used to have a really badrelationship with God and then,
when I transformed that intosomething, as well as my family,
when I transformed that andrenegotiated what I needed to be
in that relationship.
It's not perfect, so I'm stillholding those two disparate sort
of thoughts, like people whothink that the people like me do
(34:59):
not belong on this earth, thatGod will destroy me, and love
loving those same people.
Wow, what a challenge.
But that's the relationshippart.
The M is meaning.
You have to create meaning inyour life, which just simply
means you're living for morethan yourself.
That could be through religion,it could be through
(35:19):
spirituality, it could be goingto a nonprofit and dedicating
some of your time outside ofwork.
Going to a nonprofit anddedicating some of your time
outside of work, et cetera, etcetera.
The A is for achievement, andthis is the part where I go back
to what I said in the beginning.
It doesn't have to be I'mgetting a master's degree.
It could be you clean thekitchen.
(35:39):
That's an achievement.
Getting out of the housesometimes is an achievement.
Sleeping eight or nine hourswhatever you need in one night
can be also an achievement.
So the small things, themedium-sized things as well as
the large things, but it doesn'tall have to be big.
And then the V is vitality.
(36:00):
Figure out ways to makeyourself feel that vitality,
whether it be through exercising, doing a puzzle, doing
something nice for someone,sending a nice note, buying a
gift, embracing someone, pettinga cat or a dog if you prefer
All of those things.
So it's a lot to say it all inone sitting, just to answer one
(36:24):
question.
But again, I go back to there'snot going to be an easy, quick
thing to do.
Like, just do this everymorning, make your bed at 8 am
and you'll be good.
That's not how it is.
It's hard, it's multifacetedand you have to really want it,
and then the days that you justcan't deal with it, let it go.
Kertia (36:46):
Yeah, that was a perfect response.
Dr. Josh (36:50):
That was amazing.
Kertia (36:51):
That was amazing, dr Josh, I love that, thank you.
So many things, so many things.
Oh my gosh.
I could continue thisconversation with you for hours.
I'd love to pick your brain,but you said something about
relationships.
I'd like to know how did youbegin to, I guess, reestablish
(37:16):
the relationships or, if not,recreate the meanings of these
relationships around you?
Dr. Josh (37:22):
Yeah, I made a lot of mistakes.
Relationships around you.
Yeah, I made a lot of mistakes.
I did it before I was trulygrounded, and I think that's
okay, because, again, it alwaysstarts with yourself.
What is it you need in order tomaintain your happiness, your
health, all of that, yourflourishing?
(37:43):
And then being grounded in thatthat's hard, because when I
first went to my parents to kindof attempt this renegotiation,
if you will, I felt grounded,but it all fell apart and we
ended up arguing.
I got upset, I stormed away, Iyelled you know all that kind of
(38:06):
stuff.
If I had to do it again, Iwouldn't change anything, though
, because I needed that.
I need that feedback in amoment to know that what I was
doing was a little tooaggressive.
And then I needed to find moreof a balance, that they were not
going to respond well to me,just banging down doors, so to
speak, and coming in and beinglike this is who I am.
(38:26):
You better accept it if youlove me.
It's the same thing with justabout anything in life.
Adults do not respond well whenthey feel like you're taking
away their ability to make adecision.
There's actually it's a conceptin psychology, it's called
psychological reactance.
It's the very reason why, if weagain back to the left and the
(38:48):
right fighting with each otherbecause they both have the truth
, right Quote, unquote the truth.
And they're both doing thingsthe right way, and so now they
have to tell the other personwhat they're doing wrong and the
other side automatically shutsdown.
You're not getting anywhere.
Same thing with religion.
There's so many differentreligions and a lot of the ways
that they're taught is that thisis the true religion, this is
(39:11):
the right way to practice andserve your God, and then what
inevitably ends up happening iswe feel like we have something
this righteous indignation, ifyou will, and other people that
are not doing it are in thewrong.
That's a huge problem, becausewe're not helping each other,
(39:31):
and I had to square that awaywith my family.
I had first come in and be likethis is who I am, but that
wasn't the way that it was goingto work, and what I love about
it is my family.
Now I had options too.
I could say I'll never talk tothem again, but that's just not
who I am.
I go back to my values.
How am I going to create thissort of engagement with life?
(39:57):
I want to keep some semblanceof a relationship with my family
.
That's my choice.
I'm not saying everybody elsehas to do that, but because
that's my goal, now I need tofigure out a way to make that
work.
And so now we're both sort oflike figure out a way to come to
terms.
So there's a win win.
My family hasn't changed theirbeliefs, and neither have I.
(40:19):
I haven't changed my ways, butwe figured out a way to love
each other.
Is it perfect?
No, not at all.
There are times when somethingmight come up, like I recently
got engaged and I knew theanswer to this, but I wanted to
ask anyway will you come to thewedding?
And the answer was no, and Iwasn't shocked by it but, I,
(40:39):
wanted to ask anyway.
So I'm constantly kind of liketesting the waters and wondering
where we're at, and then I getthat reminder again like no, we
haven't changed who we are, butwe still love you, and I think
that's wonderful.
I know not everybody has thatand nor can everyone do that,
but I feel lucky that I was ableto forge that with my family my
immediate family anyway.
(40:59):
So that is something that I tryto apply.
It's like a microcosm for whatI can do in the world.
So every time I come acrosssomebody who also might be
engaging in ideologies that aredestructive to who I am in my
community, I can easily justwalk away, feel hate towards
(41:24):
them and I do sometimes.
But again, going back to thatchallenge, I don't have to.
They're not my family but if Itry to practice this more and
more, will I be helping to makethis world somewhat of a better
place, even if it's just a tiny,tiny bit.
If that's all I can do duringmy lifetime, then I'll take it.
(41:45):
That's what I want to be a partof, knowing that it's easier
said than done, and sometimes Ijust need to walk away because
it's like talking to a rock.
Kertia (41:55):
Yeah, beautiful, congrats on your engagement.
Dr. Josh (41:58):
Oh, thank you.
Exciting stuff ahead yeah,that's amazing.
I love that for you.
Oh, it's like I had to throwthat in there, right, something,
something positive and happyand something to look forward to
.
Yeah, it's not all doom andgloom.
(42:18):
Um, there, there's a silverlining I found to everything,
even when I had.
But it usually happens afterthe fact.
Looking in hindsight, I say,well, please, I didn't like
anyone that told me while I wasgoing through that, oh you'll,
you'll live through this,everything will be fine.
You're young.
I didn't want to hear any ofthat.
(42:38):
I just wanted to be the victimand that's okay.
But in hindsight I thought, wow, yeah, there was a lot of
learning lessons in that.
I appreciate life more than Iperhaps ever would have before.
There's so many things that Ijust appreciate that I'm not
certain I would appreciate atthis level if I hadn't gone
through all the things that Ihave.
So that's the gift that I haveright now.
Kertia (43:00):
And I embrace it.
Amazing, amazing, oh my gosh,this is lovely.
So how would you say, you know?
Because we spoke about likeit's okay to be the victim, but
it's also vital.
It's also important that westep out of that at some point
(43:20):
in time Because, yes, there arethings that happen that are
oftentimes beyond our controland we cannot really control how
other people choose to react tous or treat us.
And so being able to recognizethat bad things happen and you
(43:41):
are experiencing something verydifficult and it's okay to go
through it's actually.
It's actually very importantthat you allow yourself to feel
the emotions during thosemoments and not try to, I guess,
like push them down or, I guess, invalidate yourself because I
(44:03):
think society does a very goodjob at already invalidating us
and our experiences but not toinvalidate yourself or suppress
your emotions, but to actuallyfeel them and go through that
and live in that state.
Right, but at some point wehave to step out of that.
(44:25):
And what I want to ask is howthen can we, you know, when life
is life and the shit stinks?
How can we cultivate resilience?
Dr. Josh (44:41):
Yeah, this is a really important and tough question.
Yeah, I go back to.
It looks different for everysingle person, something I
learned at a very young age.
I've always been interested inacting and performance and when
I first started studying, when Iwent to New York I had my very
(45:02):
first acting class and somepeople might be thinking like
why is he talking about acting?
But don't worry, I'm going totie it together.
So I had a wonderful teacher whosaid your job is to become the
best actor you possibly can, andthat is not by emulating the
most famous actors that are outthere.
(45:23):
It is not by reading about ateacher and trying to emulate
all the things that that teachertaught.
Your job is to pick and choosethe elements, emulate all the
things that that teacher taught.
Your job is to pick and choosethe elements of all the models
and frameworks that exist outthere to create your own.
And that never left me.
(45:44):
It resonated with me so deeplybecause it's not just about
acting, it is about everythingin life.
Your task is not to copysomebody else.
You are unique and so you mustcreate your own model, your own
framework, by picking andchoosing the things that
resonate with you, which couldchange over time.
(46:05):
What resonates with you righthere and now might look so much
different five, 10 years fromnow, and that's okay.
Might look so much differentfive, 10 years from now, and
that's okay.
So what's resonating with me inthe moment as I'm a victim, is
working for me, because I'mprocessing negative emotions and
even calling them negative.
Some people say don't do that,it's just emotion.
You're processing all thesethings that are happening in
(46:25):
real time and whatever thattakes, it takes.
Some people ask well, how doyou know?
How do you know if you're justlike down in the deep too long
and you need to get out?
Well, if you're asking yourselfthat question, then maybe
that's an indication.
But having a relationship withyourself is so, so important and
understanding when you mightneed help to get yourself out,
(46:46):
and it might take more than onechance, or more than one
opportunity, if you will Like.
Sometimes it takes many, many,many different chances or
opportunities for you to get outof something.
So I think about all of thatand I think about having a
support system that is soimportant during those times.
(47:08):
Sometimes you'll get some peoplewill say hey, you know, you've
been crying about this for threedays.
Maybe you ought to sometimesthat that's not the best thing
for you to hear, but thefriendly, loving reminders
occasionally, um could behelpful, because then you could
just say no, this is not theright time for me, I don't care
that it's day three, I don'tcare that it's week three.
(47:29):
You know, it all depends onwhat exactly has been going on.
But for the most part, mostpeople will begin to understand
like, okay, I've processed thisand I think I'm ready.
I think I'm ready to startmaking a change.
I talked to one of my colleaguesnot too long ago and she had a
(47:49):
horrible relationship.
She got married and themarriage ended very badly about
two or three years ago and she'sstill processing that.
And one of the things she hadsaid to me was I can't believe,
I'm still processing this.
And I said but this was thelove of your life.
You had every indication orthought, for good reason, that
(48:12):
this is what you, this would beyour life right and that it all
got taken away in a very bad way.
So the fact that you're stillprocessing that two or three,
who's to tell you that you needto get over it?
No, no, you process thatsomebody dies in your immediate
family.
You may, may never get over it.
(48:32):
You just learn how to live withthat feeling still there, that
emptiness.
So you know it really dependson the circumstances and I think
don't give yourself limits.
Allow yourself to process, likeyou said so very astutely.
Yes, do not try to squelch,push down, deny yourself that.
(48:55):
And that's hard because societyis telling you everything else
like, no, no, positive vibesonly.
It's like well, what does thatmean?
If I'm not feeling positive,that I need to dismiss myself, I
can't be part of society andculture, yeah, no, no, that's
toxic.
We need to embrace all of thosethings and I think we also need
(49:20):
to do better at embracing it,because let's acknowledge that
we're not taught how to embracethose things and so, as we adult
, that's when we start learning.
So we're going to make a lot ofmistakes and that's okay.
Kertia (49:36):
Yeah, and just linking that to the self-acceptance
space.
Right, I think that goes handin hand with everything that you
just said, because you know,being able to acknowledge where
we are and just being okay withthat oh my gosh, yes right.
(49:57):
Yeah, I'd love for you to speakon that because, um, I think
when you think aboutself-acceptance, it seems like
you know, like it seems likeit's something going in line
with being positive and like allthe nice empowering.
Empowering fluffy stuff thatfeels good, but also a part of
that is also embracing where youare in the now.
(50:20):
That's right.
If everything in your lifedoesn't look the way you want it
to look, if your relationshipsare a mess, if you're still
trying to figure out what yourcareer path is, if you're still
struggling with identity, withyour identity and all the things
right.
Being able to accept yourselfas is now is also.
(50:42):
It's as important as imaginingthe self, or recognizing the
self, that you want to be right,Recognizing the self that you
want to be right.
Dr. Josh (50:52):
Absolutely.
From the moment that we areborn, our bodies, our minds, our
spirits, if you will, aregiving us signals.
They're talking to us, yeah.
Our task, then, is tounderstand what those signals
mean, and that's very difficultto do if you don't have a
relationship with yourself, ifyou've been ignoring all the
(51:13):
signals, the chatter, if youwill, and just saying whatever,
or putting layers upon layers onit.
The other thing is, when youforge or create an identity that
is not true to who you are, youend up validating an identity
that doesn't truly exist.
And so when you go home atnight and you feel empty inside,
(51:35):
it's because you're not trulyvalidating who you are.
You're validating somethingelse that doesn't even exist.
I think the other thing is,once you start to have that
relationship, you tend tounderstand where you gravitate
and where you lean more towardsas a human being, so you can
help yourself kind of I wouldn'teven say balance out, because
(51:58):
balance kind of gives this ideathat there's a one-to-one ratio
and it doesn't always look thatway.
Sometimes someone's balancemight be totally off kilter for
someone else.
One of the things I learnedthat I thought was really
fruitful was negativity,generally speaking, works much
differently in the brain forhuman beings than positive
(52:19):
emotions and positive thoughts,and the reason why which sounds
very logical is because ourbrains are meant to take
negativity above and beyondpositive things to help us
survive.
So you walk into a room andyou're scanning, and this is in
a fraction of a second.
So it's not your conscious minddoing it Although your
conscious mind can actually alsodo it as an additional layer,
(52:41):
but you are constantly scanningeverywhere you go for danger.
That's how your brain is built.
It's because we are meant tosurvive.
The only time that's nothappening is when we are
creating layers upon layers orinvolving ourselves in substance
use.
To where that starts to changehow our brain is able to scan
(53:04):
the environment.
So once you understand that,then it makes sense that you
could have a best friend that'swith you for five years and then
they do that one thing thatreally steams you and everything
else, at least for that momentand perhaps for the time being,
melts all away and you'refixated on this thing that has
(53:25):
harmed or hurt you.
That makes sense.
So how does that happen in theworld?
Once you realize that we'repicking up all the time on these
negative things as a way tosurvive, then you can actively
tell yourself I need to seek outthe good so that I can help to
(53:47):
again.
Maybe it's not a balance, maybeit's more like a synergy, maybe
it's more like a harmonic wayof looking at the world.
How do I find my harmony?
And the science has been reallyfruitful for me, because this
is an average, but for everynegative thing that happens, you
need about three to seven goodthings to help to counterbalance
(54:07):
that.
So it's not just like you haveone negative thing and then if I
think of one positive thing,it's good.
So your friend harms you.
So it's not just like you haveone negative thing and then if I
think of one positive thing,it's good.
So your friend harms you.
Hopefully it's not too bad of aharm.
Maybe it's just disrespect orsomething.
You need to consciously thinkabout all the things that have
gone well, and that's the samewith any relationship.
(54:28):
It could be a boss, it could bea significant other, and this
is how you help yourself.
Now, going back to like that'ssomething that I feel like once
you learn, you can try tocontrol.
There are things that also havehappened in our lives, like we
grow up in a Western world butwe're taught certain things from
a very young age, especiallyhere in the United States.
(54:50):
It's all about independentthinking and what we call the
independent control.
I'm out for myself, I need tomake it, I have to live the
dream, all those things.
As we get older we see therealities are not really tied to
that, but what we need tounderstand is that, because
we've been taught that for agood portion of our lives,
(55:11):
especially those who've gone topublic school, there are ways
that that is being enacted inour everyday situations without
us even realizing and knowing it.
So when you start to look atthe literature at least for me I
thought to myself well, what'sthe opposite of that?
It's interdependence.
Kertia (55:29):
Yeah.
Dr. Josh (55:30):
And so what are all the ways that I can help myself
thread more interdependence inmy life?
Now, why is that my charge?
Because I know where my go-tois.
From my formative years, whenmy brain is soaking up all this
information, I was taught frommany, many different people and
in many different ways thatindependence is the best way to
(55:53):
go.
That's what's going to make yousuccessful, and I know as an
adult that's not always true andit's also an extreme and it's
also an all or nothing.
So I'm utilizing all thesetools to find out where am I on
this spectrum and how do I finda way, or some semblance, to
create more harmony in my life?
(56:13):
First, you have to know whereyou stand on that spectrum and
if you think about, a lot ofhuman phenomenon can exist on a
spectrum and they actually do.
And if you think of it that wayand it's not about I'm on the
left, you're on the right.
It's like here I am today, Imight be here tomorrow, from the
(56:34):
left to the right, and all ofthat's okay.
I feel more balanced here.
Even though it's leaning moretowards the left, somebody else
might feel opposite.
You know what I meanRelationship or that semblance
of some type of harmony cannotexist unless you know where you
(56:54):
stand.
You cannot know where you standunless you know who you are.
You cannot know who you are ifyou are not listening to
yourself.
You cannot listen to yourself ifyou've spent the majority of
your life building up layer uponlayer of muck, if you will,
because when you wake up in themorning, this used to happen to
(57:15):
me all the time.
Last thing I'll say for thispart, I would have this gigantic
headache and I would say tomyself oh my gosh, am I sick, is
there something wrong?
And I wouldn't know why,because I wasn't drinking out
the last night.
So I've built layer upon layerand I have no way of truly
(57:39):
understanding what's happeningto me in that moment.
Those are choices that I'vemade.
So that's a different sort ofexample, because it's about like
activities that you did thenight before.
But think about all thedifferent ways that we kind of
add these layers, whether it geton yeah, they could be
narratives that we tellourselves.
There's so many different waysto do that, and so clearing that
(58:03):
should be an activity that wedo constantly, because as human
beings we're naturallygravitating towards all of those
layers.
Clear the way, so you canlisten to yourself, so that you
can try to live the best lifeyou can, even if it's just for
the moment, and then try againin the next moment, if you can.
Don't let it go Amazing amazing, amazing.
Kertia (58:27):
So you said so many amazing things today.
Dr. Josh (58:40):
I'll ask you about your work now um to tell me
about what, what you're workingon and all the all the good
things, sure.
So I've been embedded innon-profit, the non-profit
industry now, for 13 years, andmy focus is on research and
evaluation.
As I mentioned, I got adoctorate in industrial
organizational psychology, andso I utilize IO psychology
(59:02):
principles, as they refer to itas, not just in the workplace,
as I mentioned, but also in myvery life, right Knowing that
I'm the same person when I leavework for the most part.
I mean, there are nuances andchanges that I make, just like
I'm not going to curse in frontof my grandmother.
That will not happen, becauseshe will literally smack me, and
(59:24):
that, to me, is not abuse.
I'm the one who abused therelationship by cursing, but
it's the same thing.
Like you know, we're nuanced indifferent scenarios, situations
depending on who we're talkingto, and that's okay.
What I don't want to happen islosing myself.
I want to be firm in my values,which will not change, and if
(59:47):
they do, though, you know, overtime then I'll reevaluate and
make sure that I'm living outthose values.
But, um, what has really beenthe gift of working in
non-profits is obviously notworking for a profit motive has
been really the biggest thingfor me.
It doesn't make everythingperfect, like there are
(01:00:07):
non-profits, that that run likejust like for-profit entities,
and there are toxic people inall different types of
organizations.
But what I do love is myability to align with my purpose
has been extremely importantthat I feel like I'm working
towards the betterment ofsociety, even if it's one person
(01:00:30):
at a time, through a missionorientation that I can jump on
board with and say, yes, I wantto be a part of this.
40 plus hours a week to me is alot, and I want to be able to
feel like, when I come home fromthat, that I'm actually
contributing to something andthat's me and that will never go
(01:00:52):
away.
So if I have to pivot and be ina job that doesn't offer me
that, I will still apply theprinciples.
It'll just be a lot harder forme to do so.
So I say that because there areplenty of people who are in
for-profit jobs and entitiesthat can create just as much
well-being and whatever else.
(01:01:13):
They want to help their livesflourish, and that's really what
encapsulates my career.
Those are the underlyingmechanisms that help me to
understand am I getting the bestout of my current position?
What's next for me?
All those things are answeredby that through line.
Is it going to serve otherpeople?
(01:01:36):
Also, I have to serve myselfbecause you know, I mean if I'm
not here, if I'm not healthy,but inevitably, especially for
work, it's about doing that.
So, uh, that's been my life forthe last 13 years and, um, I'm
really proud of that and I lookforward to continuing that for
perhaps another 20 years or so.
We'll see.
Kertia (01:01:58):
I love that.
I love that.
So one last question before Ihead out, and then you can tell
us where we can find your memoirand anything else that you'd
like us to check out?
Sure, you'd like us to checkout.
Sure, you know.
Thinking about your experiencein the grand scheme of things,
from where you've been to whereyou now are.
(01:02:20):
You mentioned purpose there.
I'd love to know you know fromwho you were before and the
version of you now?
How do you define purpose?
What is purpose for you?
Dr. Josh (01:02:32):
Oh my gosh, I love this question.
It's such a great question andit resonates with me so deeply.
I can't speak for everyone,obviously, but I think our
purpose is something that weunderstand at a very, very young
age young age, I know.
(01:02:54):
For me that was definitely thecase, but again, all these
layers that were built up overlife had to be removed in order
for me to go back to what I feltwas my purpose.
So some of my earliest memorieson the good side now, because I
talked about some of my earliestmemories being confused and
maybe not so good, but this wasa really great memory that I had
(01:03:15):
and a little funny too when I,when I recount it.
So I would be out with my mom,specifically, me and her would
do all sorts of things that Iremember as a toddler, and I
would run towards strangers andI was so tiny, all I could do
was like grasp their legs.
That's how small I was andthat's what I remember.
(01:03:36):
I remember running up tostrangers.
I didn't know that there werestrangers, I didn't even know,
what a stranger was.
All I knew that I was going upand grabbing their legs and
hugging them as tight as I could.
My mom would take me aside andshe would get so angry with me.
I remember this.
You can't do that.
No, don't do that.
(01:03:57):
Someone someday is going totake advantage of that.
You can't, you can't just dothat, sorry, and I would get so
upset I was crying.
What was going on there?
My assessment of the situationwas that I wanted to embrace
people and it didn't matter whothey were, that my job was to
(01:04:18):
embrace them.
Now I don't run up to strangerstoday and hug them.
That might put me in a veryawkward position, but I can
still embrace people.
It doesn't mean literally,figuratively.
I can find all sorts of ways toembrace people and I feel like
(01:04:39):
that's my purpose.
It's going to look differentfor everyone and maybe I fooled
myself into thinking that's mypurpose, but I don't think so.
Whenever I talk about it,whenever I think about what that
felt like as a kid and goingback to that, there's something
within me that just lights upand I feel just like everything
(01:05:01):
else that's come into my lifemultiple times.
I don't know if we can call itthe universe or God or whatever
you like, but there's a reasonwhy it keeps coming back to me.
But there's a reason why itkeeps coming back to me, and to
me that means that I have tolisten to it and that's how I
fulfill my purpose.
So that's how I define that.
Kertia (01:05:23):
Beautiful.
I love that and it's so trueand I definitely see that
because when we're kids andwe're still in that, we're still
connected to that purest,truest aspect of ourselves,
before all the layers of societyand conditioning and
(01:05:44):
programming gets laid onto us,we know we follow that intuition
that God spark, whatever thatis, whatever you want to call it
.
We follow that callingnaturally.
We naturally gravitate towardsthe things that make us light up
(01:06:07):
, that makes us expand, thatmakes us feel expansive.
And that was it for you,absolutely so I truly do.
Dr. Josh (01:06:28):
Yeah, and that is it.
That is pretty much youconnecting to the tr every year
for my parents and they would beBible stories, because those
are the only stories that wewere allowed to kind of read and
listen to.
But I naturally without evenknowing what acting was, what
the stage or theater was, orstorytelling, I was doing that,
(01:06:49):
and so embracing people throughstorytelling is truly whether I
do that through research orthrough an actual production
that I engage in that's on thetheater or short film those are
all things that have beenmainstays in my life.
As long as that story has amessage to help people become
(01:07:11):
better, I'm all about it, and sothat has been another sort of
like through line for me thatexisted ever since I was a
little kid.
So, yeah, I mean, I think Idon't think I know that's
exactly what I'm here for.
Kertia (01:07:27):
And.
Dr. Josh (01:07:28):
I hope that other people are able to find that
very thing as well, becausethat's where your true
authenticity lies.
Kertia (01:07:35):
Exactly, yeah, yeah, awesome.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much.
This was an amazingconversation.
Now, where can we find yourwork, your memoir, anything else
that you're working on?
Dr. Josh (01:07:46):
Yes, well, and thank you.
That's very nice of you, Verynice of you.
So my website's the easiest wayto get a hold of me.
That is drjoshsolutions,spelled just like the word, with
an S at the end and that's inplace of a com or org.
So it's drjoshsolutions, andyou'll find my contact
(01:08:11):
information, my social media,the book that we talked about,
just some other little blurbshere and there about how I think
about work and IO, psychologygenerally speaking, and anyone
that's interested can feel freeto send me an email and I'd be
happy to respond to that.
Kertia (01:08:30):
So yeah, perfect.
Thank you so much.
Dr. Josh (01:08:34):
Oh, you're so welcome.
Thank you again for having meon your show.
Kertia (01:08:38):
Thank you so much, everyone, for tuning in.
This was such an amazingconversation with Dr Josh.
I hope you enjoyed it as muchas I did and, as usual, text us
your input, reach out to us andtell us what you think, or just
to say hey, hi, we alwaysrespond.
We love when you reach out andyou'll find Dr Josh's
(01:09:02):
information in the show notes ofthis recording.
Please reach out to him aboutany inquiries you may have or
just to connect.
All right, thank you so much.
Until next time.
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