I Was Trafficked | with Ronika Merl

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Key Takeaways:

-  The reality of human trafficking is that it doesn’t always look like human trafficking. 

-  The psychological restraints we often allow to determine our self worth and our path in life- many times unknowingly. In many cases, psychological constraints can prevent physical escape from abuse. But posing the question 'Why didn't you leave?' is toxic and harmful.

-  The importance of small moments and how they can overtime, create big transformation. 

This episode sheds light on the realities of human trafficking, the challenging societal misconceptions and advocating for understanding and change. Ronika Merl, award-winning screenwriter, filmmaker, activist and all-around creative, provides a unique perspective, which underscores the role of education and boundaries in healing and empowerment.

Throughout our deep discussion, we unravel the intricate impact of abuse on self-worth and emotional healing. Through personal reflections, Ronika illuminates how abusers can distort self-perception, leaving victims struggling to justify even the simplest acts of self-care. From childhood trauma, to human trafficking and the eventual reclaiming of personal power, our conversation emphasizes the crucial journey toward self-acceptance and the profound realization that everyone deserves kindness, love, and the chance to heal.


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Episode Transcript

Kertia (00:00):
Hey everyone, today we're talking about human
trafficking and if you'reanything like me, I am sure that
at one point, whenever you'veheard the term human trafficking
, you'd instantly get images inyour mind of someone being tied
up, kidnapped, forced in theback of a dirty van, possibly

(00:21):
drugged against their will andpotentially illegally smuggled
across some border where theywould then go on to experience a
series of unspeakable things inaddition to being somebody's
sex slave.
Or if any of you have watchedthe movie Taken, with Liam

(00:42):
Neeson playing a character whosedaughter was kidnapped while on
vacation, that can serve as avisual representation as to one
aspect of what human traffickingcan be like.
So, taking all of this intoconsideration, this perception
of human trafficking iscompletely true.
It is very real, very valid.

(01:05):
These things actually do happen, and I mentioned taken because
it's Hollywood, it's easilyidentifiable.
A handful of us probably knowwho Liam Neeson is, but in
reality, in most cases, thevictims of human trafficking
often do not have a hero that iscoming to save them.

(01:28):
And there are many other moviesand documentaries that covers
the reality of human traffickingand what it actually entails,
many of which arewell-researched and produced so
beautifully and really gives usa much deeper, broader insight
on the issue.
But there is another side ofhuman trafficking that is not so

(01:53):
overt in its expression of thecoercion and exploitation being
done.
It's a very subtle form ofhuman trafficking which is just
as harmful as what I'vedescribed before and equally
dangerous, especially because itis even more so difficult to
identify.
Now that is what I'm discussingtoday with screenwriter,

(02:16):
filmmaker and activist, ronikaMerrill, who is a survivor of
human trafficking and who Ideeply appreciate for sharing
her story with us today.
You survived human trafficking,yeah, tell me.

Ronika (02:45):
Tell me more, okay, so I always say that I was like
probably the luckiest person.
I think of myself as theluckiest person in the world.
I really do and that's.
That's weird to say, but, like,the way it all happened for me
was so gentle and so gentle isthe wrong word.

(03:06):
I shouldn't have said gentle,but it was.
It was so kind of on the lowerend of how bad it could have
been, that half of that's atrauma response to like tell
myself it wasn't as bad as itcould have been, and you know to
not acknowledge the thehorrendous stuff that did happen

(03:26):
, um, but it really wasn't asbad as it could have been.
And you know to not acknowledgethe horrendous stuff that did
happen.
But it really wasn't like Iwasn't, I wasn't drugged or
anything.
I was put in the back of a carand driven 200 miles away and
put into a room 200 miles awayand put into a room.

(03:50):
But I still had my cell phone.
I still had, you know, I stillhad the ability to leave the
house.
I just psychologically I didn'thave the ability to leave the
house, but physically I couldhave just left, um, so it
definitely wasn't as bad as itcould have been.
I wasn't beaten as much asother women have been.
I wasn't, like you know,chained to a bed or God forbid,

(04:11):
like.
Oh, by the way, lots of trigger, warning for all sorts of
things, lucky ones.
Having said that, the thingsthat happened to me shouldn't
have happened.
They shouldn't have the thingsthat happened to me, the things

(04:31):
that were done, they shouldn'thave been done.
Um, none of the stuff, none ofthe stuff that happened was okay
.
So you have to walk that kindof balance of understanding that
you might have been very lucky.
You might have been very luckyin that it wasn't as bad as it

(04:52):
could have been, but thatdoesn't take away from the
badness.
That doesn't take away.
That doesn't mean that you'renot allowed to grieve, that
you're not allowed to betraumatized, that you're not
allowed to, you know, be scarredand hurt by this.
So it's like it's a reallystrange balance that I have to
walk every single day.

Kertia (05:13):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
You said something reallyfascinating there.
You said that you werephysically able to leave, but
not psychologically able toleave.
Tell me more about that.

Ronika (05:28):
Yeah, and that's really interesting.
That's a lot of the work that Ido with survivors now is that I
tell them the phrase you wouldhave if you could have all the
time and it's a phrase that Icome back to in all sorts of
situations in life is that sooften I was physically I went to
the shop every day.
I went to the shop every singleday.

(05:50):
You know, um, I I wasn't, youknow, I wasn't, like I said, I
wasn't chained to to the bed.
Um, you know, 24 7 it I I could, and when I finally could leave
, I did.
I literally I stood up off thebed and walked out the door and

(06:13):
never looked back.
So it was never a thing that Iwas physically held back.
Yes, the consequences of mewalking out the door were quite,
you know, they were quitesevere and I had to deal with a
lot thereafter, but I I'm herenow, so it wasn't a thing that
it was physically impossible forme to leave.
It was I could not have left.
I could not have left anysooner because my internal um

(06:39):
understanding of what I wascapable of doing was so
completely skewered, was socompletely broken, was
completely um non-existent.
I I didn't think that I wascapable of anything, because
that's what I had beenconditioned to believe.
That's what I had beenconditioned to believe from from
a very, very young age that ifI didn't have some sort of um,

(07:06):
if I didn't have some sort offigure or or master, um kind of
lording over me telling me whatto do, I couldn't do anything.
It was like I was a puppet.
It was like I was a puppetwithout strings and therefore,
just, you know, heap crumpled onthe on the stage floor, and it

(07:27):
took me a long time to realizethat's not the truth and I'm
still learning that that's notthe truth.
So when I speak to othersurvivors and that question of
why didn't I, why didn't youleave sooner?
Or the question of why doesn'tshe just leave if she hates him,
or why doesn't he just go ifshe's abusive or like all of
that, you cannot.

(07:48):
And to learn to forgiveyourself, to really learn to to
forgive yourself for the factthat you couldn't, not that you
just didn't, but that you couldnot leave or change or or make
better.
You couldn't, because if youwould, if you could have, you

(08:09):
would have.
And I come back to that all thetime, and every time I learn
something new.
I kind of come back to thatmoment of like oh, oh, okay, I
forgive myself for that.
So that's a really importantprocess, I think.

Kertia (08:27):
Yeah, that is so true.
That is so true because whenyou go through an experience
like that I think a lot ofpeople who have been abused in
some way there is a lot ofself-blame, you know, there is a
lot of shame, yeah, there's alot of embarrassment, right, and
you think about how, in howmany different ways, it's your

(08:53):
fault or you had something to dowith what was done to you.
So it's really important to say, like what you just said, if
you, if you could have, youwould have Right.
And I love that you point outthe fact that, like, although
your experience was not assevere as some issues, you know,

(09:16):
with human trafficking, some ofthe things that happened to
some of these women or childrenor even men, you know.
Like, even if it wasn't assevere as some of those cases,
there's a psychological elementthat, even if you can physically
leave, you don't you choose.
You literally choose not to,even though you can, right.

(09:40):
And anyone will say, well, ifyou could go to the store, if
you could do all these things,why didn't you just walk away?
Why didn't you run through thedoor and never look back?
Why did it take you so long?
And there is that element andwhen you kind of think about
things like that, it's hard forpeople to speak up sometimes,

(10:01):
because then not only are youblaming yourself, but then you
have other people blaming youand questioning your decision
making.
Yes, right, so it's just thatadditional element of shame and
criticism and, yeah, it does nogood to no, it really doesn't,

(10:21):
and that that element of shameis.

Ronika (10:23):
I think most of my work is is centered around that
particular thing, thatparticular question of why
didn't you leave?
Yeah, it's such a toxicquestion and I want to dismantle
it from like such a becauseI've been asked that question a
million times.
I've been asked that questionagain and again and again and I

(10:45):
didn't have an explanation for along time.
The only explanation I couldcome up with is because I didn't
feel worthy of anything better.
That was, it was all that I wasworthy of.
So if you don't feel likethere's a better thing out there

(11:05):
for you, because anythingbetter isn't what you deserve,
then no, you cannot leavebecause because you are
internally so so sure, soconvinced that you are not going
to have it better, because youare not capable of experiencing

(11:29):
good things, because you're notworth that.
And that is such a deep-seatedkind of belief that a lot of the
people who are conditioned byabusers experience.
Yeah, and if the restraintsthat you are in are internal
rather than external, they're Idon't want to say they're much

(11:55):
harder to break, because, ofcourse, if you're actually
actively being physically heldback, horrendous, but the
internal, it takes such a longtime to work through the
internal kind of blockage.
So the explanation for thequestion why didn't you just
leave?
Is because I wasn't worthleaving to me.

(12:17):
I didn't feel like I was worthum.
So there was a situation Iremember well actually, and I
come back to it a lot.
So I was, I was, uh, kind ofkept in this.
It wasn't even such a bad room,it was like a little studio
apartment.
And I love vanilla flavored tea.
Right, I really love vanillaflavored tea.

(12:38):
I love it.
It's, it's just so good.
If you've never tried it, gottatry it.
Um, and I really love that tea.
But the brand that I reallyloved was like maybe like a euro
more expensive, um, or likemaybe 70 cents more expensive,

(12:59):
and I really loved that tea.
Like, I loved it so much but Ididn't buy it for myself ever
because I felt I wasn't worthpaying that extra.
Whatever euro or 70 cents orwhatever it was.
I felt like, oh, no, no, no, no, I better not.
I better not spend, let's say,70 cents on myself, because I'm

(13:22):
not worth that.
I was worth about 120 in anhour to other people, but I
wasn't worth spending 70 centson myself, which would have
given me like there were 20 teabags in there, so 20 cups of
really blissful moments formyself.
I wasn't worth that for myself,I wasn't worth that.

(13:51):
So when I noticed that I waskind of becoming strong enough
to maybe one day be able toleave, when I noticed that I was
actually growing a spine I'vequite bushy eyebrows, so, like,
my eyebrows are quite, they'requite substantial right, and I
have all these like little bits,that kind of point in the wrong
direction, and my eyebrows are,are they're a thing.
Yeah, so it was about threemonths before I left and, um, I

(14:15):
always walked past this littleeyebrow and nails place when I
had to walk to the bank todeposit all my illegally earned
cash.
And I walked past this placeand there were women in there
and they were laughing and therewas a sense of community and it
was one of those like reallycold winter nights and, um, as I

(14:37):
was.
So I was so deeply broken and Istopped in front of this
eyebrow and nails place and Ilooked inside and the woman just
kind of waved at me, was likehey, and I walked in and I have
my eyebrows waxed for the firsttime ever, right, and it costs

(14:57):
like I don't know at the time,probably like 12 euro or
something like around $11, $10dollars, so like really cheap
just to have literally the theunderside of my eyebrows waxed.
But I walked out of there theoverwhelming guilt of what I had
just done are you serious?

(15:19):
that I just was in floods oftears of like, oh my god, who do
I think I am?
What?
What kind of arrogant,self-obsessed, vain, um, um,

(15:39):
just absolutely narcissisticperson would do something like
that.
I am so full of myself.
Oh my God, I am so full ofmyself for doing that.
Who do I think I am?
I just wasted half an hour.
I just wasted half an hourwhere I could have been earning

(16:00):
money or where I could have beendoing something productive.
Right, I just wasted like tendollars on myself.
How, how evil am I?
That was my thought processafter I got my eyebrows waxed
after I did this tiny littlething for myself, right?
So, like those are the momentsthat I come back to for like

(16:23):
making myself realize how bad itactually was, how horrendous
the psychological effect of whatwas being done to me actually
was, is that you do not,fundamentally, you don't believe
that you deserve good thingswhen you're being abused, but
you do.
Everybody does, we all do.

(16:45):
Everybody can go get theireyebrows done.
I haven't had my eyebrows donein years.
I'm perfectly happy with them.
Now I don't want to do anythingabout them.
It's back in fashion to havethem wild.
But if I want to get myeyebrows done now, I'm going to
walk over and get them done andI'm going to walk out laughing
Because I'm gonna walk over andget them done and I'm gonna walk

(17:06):
out laughing because I'm finebecause of course I'm worth.
Of course I'm worth spendingwhatever twenty dollars on
myself.
Of course I am, yeah, butthat's not an of course thing
when you're in that situation.
So that's always the momentthat I realized that it was bad.

Kertia (17:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That is really telling, youknow, because when you say that
psychologically you were unableto leave, even though physically
you could move around freely,even though physically you could
move around freely, when youthink about those experiences,

(17:54):
then it becomes apparent why itwas impossible for you to leave.
You literally didn't have thatself-worth, didn't have that
self-love, didn't feel like youwere deserving, didn't feel like
you deserve love or anythingright.
So why would you leave?
In your head, you're thinkingwell, I don't even have it that
bad, right, and you know likeit's not that bad.
This is probably a bettersituation than most other

(18:16):
situations.
You know, it's probably thething that makes sense for me
right now, because what else isthere out there for me, right?
What else is there?
out there for me, right?
Who else is there out there forme?
So yeah, the the psychologicalaspect of that is it's very,
very telling yeah, I'm so gladthat you mentioned that.

(18:39):
I'm so like.
Thank you for sharing that yeah, no, it's important.

Ronika (18:43):
I, I always tell that story.
Yeah, it really is.
We tend to forget how deeplythese scars go.
And also, you mentionedsomething interesting.
There is that the feeling of andthat's what when you're in an
abusive relationship or in anabusive situation, no matter

(19:03):
what that relationship is,whether that's with a parent,
with a partner, with a colleague, with a boss, with a child,
with whatever it is, a siblingwhat a lot of narcissistic
abusers do is tell you thatnobody else could love you, only
them.
And then they feed you thesetiny little crumbs of love and

(19:26):
like you feel like, oh, you'reso starved and you're so kind of
deprived of any positive,anything positive at all.
And then you get this tinylittle morsel, this little tiny
crumb of affection and of love,and because that's all you're
getting, you like latch ontothat and you're like, oh my God,
this person loves me and nobodyelse ever could.
Nobody else could ever love mebecause I'm so unworthy of love,

(19:48):
but this is the one and onlyperson who could ever, ever,
ever love me.
Um, and it has knock-on effectstoo.
Even when you get out of thatparticular relationship, you
have knock-on effects later on,because if somebody shows you
like the minimum, bare minimumeffort of what a normal
relationship.
Yeah, you latch on to them andyou're like, oh my god, you love

(20:11):
me.
What?
And you and you, you sink yourclaws into them.
You're so terrified of losingthem and any normal, sane person
would just be like whoa, what?
No, okay, calm down, loosen itup, girl, because, like, what's
going on?
And that's really.
And then you fall back intothis cycle of like, oh my God,

(20:31):
this person didn't love me, I'mcompletely unlovable, nobody
will ever love me, nobody willever think of me as worthy, and
it's such a, it's such a trapthat you fall into.
And this is also why a lot ofpeople, once they've been in an
abusive relationship once, willseek that out again and again
and again and again and willcome back to abusive situations

(20:55):
or bad situations, because theydon't understand that and it's
such a cliche and I hate thephrase and it's and it's been
overused but you have to loveyourself before you can love
another.
It's like every podcast in theworld that kind of centers

(21:15):
around these themes willeventually produce the phrase
you have to love yourself andthen everything's gonna be all
right.
Um, and I hate it, but it'strue.
It's true, it's such a trope,but it's so true and it's just.
It's just.
I hate saying it, but it's truebecause it's such a simplified.

(21:37):
It's such a simplified phraseof the actual truth and the work
, just the, oh my God, theendless amount of work that goes
into just loving yourself.
Like, yeah, it's so hard, it'sso difficult to love yourself.
Oh my God, like it's, it's thehardest thing in the world to

(22:00):
just sit here completely insilence with yourself and just
breathe and just exist insilence within your own body,
with yourself.
Like that's such, that's such adifficult thing, yeah, but to
be able to do that and to beable to say you know what?
I'm okay, I'm a good person.

(22:21):
I flaws, I make mistakes, butI'm a good person all the way in
here.
I'm a good person.
I have flaws, I make mistakes,but I'm a good person all the
way in here.
I'm a good person, and nobodycan tell me any different.
Nobody can tell me that I'm notworthy getting my eyebrows done
.
Nobody, no, no person in theworld can tell me that I'm not
allowed to like nobody.
So it's just it's.
But I'm 33 now.
That eyebrow incident was whenI was 19, so it took me from 19

(22:46):
until like about the age of like31 to completely get rid of of
these old, kind of deeplyentrenched notions.
So, yeah, it's.
It takes a long time, yeah.

Kertia (23:06):
Yeah, another aspect of that.
On the flip side of that, youknow, when you don't love
yourself or when you're so usedto being abused and receiving
the bare minimum, when you docome in touch with others who
willingly give lovewholeheartedly, it's, it's like

(23:28):
foreign to you.
Yes, it's foreign.
It feels uncomfortable.
You have no idea what to dowith all of that.
You don't know how to receiveit.
You don't know how to react toit.
You might even push it away andtry to get away from it.
It's, it's a mind fuck itreally is.

Ronika (23:49):
Oh, we can curse on this podcast.
That's amazing, because I'veheld back so many f-bombs, um.
But yeah, no, it is.
And you said the most perfectthing there.
Um, it's so foreign to you yeahit's like so the first kind of
really really, really healthyrelationship I had, um was only

(24:11):
this summer.
Like it took me this longbecause I kind of started.
I started therapy during COVID,um, because I had gotten out of
my latest abusive relationship,surprise, surprise, and I was
living by myself and I wasliving completely isolated, of
course, because it was COVIDwith my kids, and it was so

(24:34):
quiet, like the whole world wasso quiet because this was, you
know, it was 2020, so everythingwas quiet, so my brain was
really loud, um, so I startedtherapy.
I was like I'm clearly in needof therapy, because who wouldn't
be?
Um, so I started therapy and Iwas in therapy for for a good
few years and then, in kind of2022, I was like, oh, I'm, I'm

(24:55):
feeling better, I'm starting toheal, I'm trying to get better.
But I didn't want to enter intoa relationship because, exactly
that, I knew exactly that actualhealthy love would feel foreign
and that I wouldn't.
I wouldn't even be able torecognize it, I wouldn't even be
able to see.
And I was so careful because Iwas like so if a narcissist

(25:19):
comes along and feeds me crumbsof love again, I'm going to over
heels and and love them and andjust be with them because they
feed me something.
Um, so I was really careful andso I didn't enter into a
relationship until this summerand it was exactly like that and
I had done, I had done all ofthis work to be able to

(25:40):
recognize what a healthy personlooks like, and and I met this
man and he was.
So it was, oh, the worst thingthat's ever happened to him God
bless him is like he broke hisfoot or stubbed his toe.
Like the man has not hadanything bad.
He's such a, he's like a, he'slike a little bowl of sunshine.
Um, he's, I always said, Ialways said of him he's, he's a

(26:04):
golden retriever boyfriend, andhe really was and he agrees with
it.
So all of a sudden, there wasthis really healthy person in
front of me and I looked at him.
I was like what the fuck do Ido?
Like who, what?
Who are you Like you?

(26:32):
So how are you so undamaged?
How does that happen?
And all he did was literallyjust love me, just love, just
not with no big fanfare, no biglike, no big drama or anything.
Just there was a plate full oflove that he was holding anyway,
so he just gave me some.
But I I knew exactly what washappening because I had done a

(26:53):
lot of work to be able torecognize that.
And I recognized it for what itwas.
And I also recognizedinternally that it was a really
strange thing to me to seesomeone so unburdened and so
full of love and to see someoneso happy with themselves,

(27:18):
without having to have done alot of work to get there.
But the point is that I wasable to recognize it because I
had done all that work.
Had I not done all that work toget to that point, that
relationship wouldn't haveworked, that that that
connection wouldn't have existed, we would not have been able to
love each other because I wouldnot have been able to

(27:42):
reciprocate in a healthy waythat way.
So yeah, it's so much work,it's just endless amounts of
work.

Kertia (27:50):
Yeah, just to dial it back a little bit.

(28:15):
You mentioned as well, you knowanother part of that, because
you know, like you mentioned,like you were conditioned to
believe that you needed sometype of master or there wasn't
that fundamental aspect of loveand self-worth embedded in you
from a young age.
So do you want to touch on thata little bit, because I think
that's really I, I love, yeah, Ilove talking about it.

Ronika (28:30):
Um, it's very, very heavy so, but we've given all
the trigger warnings.
So my mother sexually abused mefrom like I don't know how far
back but I'm presuming since Iwas a baby.
So my parents, both my fatherdid as well, but my mother was

(28:50):
kind of the primary instigatorof that abuse um, and it could
be quite violent, like it isvery heavy, so I'll keep it
light.
Um, and the reason I liketalking about it, but the reason
I think it's important to talkabout is that so often we don't

(29:13):
see women, we don't see mothersbeing the perpetrator of this,
of this horrendous thing, and we, we and most mothers are just
amazing and moms are amazing.
I'm a mom.
Moms are everything.
Mothers are amazing people.
Some of them aren't, some ofthem really are not.

(29:36):
Women are amazing people.
Some of them aren't.
Some women really are not.
So the kind ofunder-representation of female
sexual perpetrators is somethingI talk about often and it's

(29:58):
something I really want to bringto light, because that happens
too, want to bring to lightbecause it that happens too.
The the cliche of of when wehave parental sexual abuse is
always oh, the dad or thestepdad or the uncle or whatever
, yeah, mom, you know.
So the I, I talk about itbecause it doesn't get talked

(30:22):
about enough and also becausewhen that happens, you're so far
ripped away from what, any kindof understanding of what
womanhood should be.
What's womanhood?
Because?
Is that that's not womanhood?

(30:43):
Surely Women don't grow up torape their own daughters like
you.
That's not that, that's not awoman.
Parenthood, no, definitely like.
No, that's no.
Um, love, that for sure ain'tlove, so to speak about, to

(31:06):
speak about, um, what my motherdid to me and what she
encouraged my father to do, um,and other people, um, was to to.
I never say deprive me of love,because deprive implies that I
had it at some point.
I didn't that.

(31:27):
From before I was born, she wasum, she was quite.
I don't want to say she was adrug addict, because that would
almost excuse her.
She used a lot of drugs whenshe was pregnant with me, so so,
even from before I was born, Iwasn't really worthy of care in
her eyes.

(31:48):
She's a narcissist.
So what she would do is shewould like dress me up and put
me on a stage and make me danceand then tell me what a slut I
was for dancing so much at likefour years old and so like
really horrendous stuff, likereally, really so like really
horrendous stuff, like really,really horrendous, horrendous
stuff.
And I I can talk about it nowbecause of all the therapy, but

(32:10):
um, so um, that the core ofthat's what, what I, what I was
kind of alluding to when I saidoh, I was a doll without strings
and I needed somebody there toto like manipulate the strings.
That was the role that mymother had put me into from like
baby onwards.

(32:31):
Your body isn't yours.
The the fundamentalunderstanding of before I was a
toddler, that your body is atool for pleasure yeah not a
body.
You are not a person, you are a.
You are a tool yeah um to bringme whatever the fuck I want
yeah um, when that happens to aperson, I say I say it a lot

(32:57):
actually is that your, my brainstructure is literally different
from a normal quote-unquoteperson, because my brain
developed in an entirelydifferent pattern and entirely
different shapes are in thereabsolutelystallized in there.

(33:18):
I have a condition calledcomplex PTSD, which is PTSD, but
it developed over over a longtime my childhood, and so my
actual brain pattern functionsdifferently for most people.
I was supposed to be and theperson I was supposed to be was

(33:38):
never even developed in the womb, wasn't even, it couldn't even
develop.
So when my actual cells werebeing put together, I was
already not the person I wassupposed to be because of all
the drug influences andeverything.
And when I was born I was notsupposed not you know the person
I was supposed to be because ofall the stuff that was done to
me.
But I don't know her.

(34:03):
I don't know who she is.
She might've been amazing, butshe might not have been.
I don't know who she is, butshe's not me, right, and I'm
pretty fucking awesome.
So the I'm really I don't wantto say I'm really glad that all
these things happened.
I'm not.
Yeah, I don't want to say I'mreally glad that all these
things happened.
I'm not and here's anotherphrase that you always hear on

(34:27):
these things and I hate thatphrase too but it made me who I
am.
I hate that phrase, but itreally did.
But it really did, you know.
So that's what I was kind ofsaying when I said I had been
conditioned to not feel like mybody was mine.

Kertia (34:52):
Yeah, yeah.

Ronika (34:52):
It's heavy.
I know I'm sorry.

Kertia (34:55):
It's important and you know like you can go as deep or
or not as deep as you want umit's so important to have these
conversations because we oftenyou often hear about human
trafficking and you often hearabout abuse, but you know, for
people who have not experiencedthat, you kind of don't know.

(35:16):
Like you, you know what toexpect, but you don't know what
to expect.
You hear about the abuse butyou really don't understand the
lived experience of being inthat situation.
So it's really important totalk about it, you know.
So, yeah, thank you so much forsharing, for sharing your

(35:39):
experience.
I wanted to ask you because youknow, like, coming from that
childhood having a mom thatabused you in that way and also
like pretty much handed you overto others, including your dad,
to abuse you, that's fucked upby the way um, but are your

(36:00):
parents the ones who handed youover, like, are they the one who
trafficked you, or how did thatsituation come about?

Ronika (36:08):
so, um, my mother stopped sexually abusing me when
I was 11, I think, when wemoved back to Austria.
So I grew up in India in a, in avery secluded tribal community,
um, but my mom was Austrian, um, so during that time, like
during during our time in India,that was like the most, that

(36:32):
would have been the most kind ofum, prolific, um, kind of
prolific abuse.
And so I only actually rememberwhat a few like a few situations
where she would have handed meoff to like strangers and it
would have been like aided bydrugs as well.

(36:52):
So there was a situation whenwe were, when we were on holiday
and she went to like anunderground rave thing and got
very, very high and I alsoingested some drugs, and then
the next thing I knew was thatthere were people around me and
I was naked and I would havebeen five at the time.

(37:12):
So, like it wasn't a thing oflike she was holding me down and
stuff was being done.
It was more like she wasfacilitating the situations in
which abuse could take place.
So, yeah, so when I grew up andshe was, you know, her career

(37:35):
should be ruined anyway, butshe's a teacher, ironic, um, so
isn't it that's?
wild, yeah, I know not okay, notokay at all.
I've I've tried, I've tried toreport her, but it didn't.
It doesn't work and, to behonest, that's a battle I don't

(37:55):
want to fight because I don'tgive shit anymore.
Um, it's horrendous.
But so that stopped when wekind of moved to Austria when I
was seven, um, and then it kindof got less and less and like.
The only times it happenedafter we moved to Austria was
when my dad was visiting um andit got it kind of tapered off

(38:15):
and they got divorced when I was11 and then thereafter I think
she just didn't bother anymore.
I think she just kind of, and Iwas, I was growing up, I was
fighting back and I was.
I think for her it was oh, she'sstarting to become conscious,
she's starting to realize what'sgoing on.
She's starting to realize thatwhat's going on is probably bad.
So I should probably stop incase she tells anybody so like,

(38:40):
because before then she alwayslike the way she, the way I
talked about it, I talked aboutthese things with her later in
life and she always played itdown as like, yeah, well, you
wouldn't really remember.
So like, in my mind she stoppedbecause I was starting to
remember and I was coming to anage in which I was consciously
remembering.
And just, she stopped when Iwas 11, um, but obviously,

(39:03):
having grown up like that,sexuality is something that's
like so difficult to navigate,it's it's fucking impossible to
right.
So when I was about like 14, Ilived in the countryside in
Austria, so, like everybody wasdrinking, so I drank a lot to

(39:24):
like compensate for all thetrauma.
And then, like 15, 15, kind of14, 15, I put myself into bad
situations again and againBecause again I felt like, yeah,
yeah, my body's not mine anyway, um, my body exists for sex, um

(39:44):
, so I should probably have sexwith lots of people, right,
because that that was all I knew, that was all.
That was the only kind of lovethat I knew was that, oh well,
um, this, yeah, that's what I,that's what I'm here for.
So when I was 16, um, I wasdrunk, completely drunk, in this

(40:08):
like bar, um, in our littletown, and now the drinking age
in Austria is 16.
So I was legally drunk in thisbar and this group of Hell's
Angels walked in and, as you canimagine, whenever you're in a

(40:31):
bar and a group of Hell's Angelswalks in, things get tense and
shit got tense, but I was drunkand I also wasn't afraid of
anything anymore at that pointbecause I was like what's the
worst that could happen, becausethe worst things imaginable
have already happened to me.
I'm not afraid of anything.
I'm certainly not afraid ofthese motherfuckers, yeah, and
one of them walked over to me, areally I have a really good

(40:55):
relationship with this man tothis day, even though horrendous
shit happened under his kind ofunder his yoke, um, and he did
horrendous shit, but he's a.
He did horrendous shit becausehe, too, couldn't do any
different.
He was caught up in it as muchas I was, and after I left, he

(41:17):
left, but that's a wholedifferent story.
So Marcus walked in and welooked at each other across the
crowded room and it really waslike that.
Really was like that.

(41:42):
No, I swear and I know itsounds so bad, don't it?
But he was 35 and he was ahell's angel, and that's how it
happened.
And then, four years later, Icried because I got my eyebrows
waxed.
Um, right, so that's how ithappened.
Um, but ironically, marcus wasreally good for me.
So he was really really goodfor me.
So he was really good for mebecause he actually gave a damn
about me.
He really genuinely gave a damnabout me.

(42:04):
He gave a damn about me becauseit brought him money, of course
, but he gave a damn about me asa person.
And he was like oh, you have areally nice smile.
I was like what?
And he was like you're reallyintelligent.
I love your intelligence.
I love how smart you are.
You, you challenge me.
I love that about you.
You're different, because Ilove that you put up with me and

(42:29):
that you challenge me and thatyou make me a better man.
So the relationship I've hadwith Marcus and I I talk about
that a lot as well we could talklike for hours just about that
specific fucked upness, um, butat the end of the day, uh, if I
had to blame anyone for the factthat I went into prostitution,

(42:50):
ironically I would blame mymother, not my pimp, even though
my mother had nothing to dowith me going into prostitution.
Yeah, but she created theconditions within me that led me
to believe that my body was atool for sex rather than a human
being.

Kertia (43:11):
Yeah, so yeah, yeah, man yeah.

Ronika (43:34):
Cross the crowded woman Girl.

Kertia (43:35):
I know he's a good person, I know, I know and it
really was, and I remember whatI was wearing.
I remember how I had my hairdone and yeah and yeah, when
you're in it, you're in it,you're in it, you're in it when
you're in it, you're in it so itis what it is right, it is what
it is.
You know, um, you know, what dowe need to know, like?
What do people need to knowcoming from the stance of
surviving human trafficking,what do people need to know?

(43:57):
What do you want people to know?

Ronika (43:59):
I want them to know what it looks like when it's not,
you know, drugged and bound inthe back of a truck.
I was driven to my newdestination in the back of a
Mercedes and I didn't feel likeI was being trafficked at all.
I was a law student when ithappened.

(44:22):
Tricky, tricky.
So that's what it looks like.
What we see on TV, what we seeeverywhere else is.
That's why I always say itwasn't as bad for me as it could
have been, but that's still itright.
So what happened was when I wasactually taken away from my
kind of safe environment andjust put into the absolute hell

(44:45):
that was.
That was Innsbruck, um was.
I was a law student, I wasstudying law, so I I had
graduated, I had gotten into lawschool, I, so I had graduated
while I was working as aprostitute.
So I was working as aprostitute from like the age of
16.
And I was still in high school,and so the weekends I would

(45:09):
spend working, and then duringthe week I was just a schoolgirl
, a school girl, and then Iworked.
When it became legal for me towork in a brothel at 18, I
worked in brothels.
So my last year of high school.
Um, during graduation, Iliterally studied for graduation
in a brothel.
So, and I studied for lawschool in a brothel.
So I got into law school, whichwas like amazing, that was.

(45:32):
That was like I was.
I was really proud of myself.
I was like really good, yeah.
So I was in law school and I gota call from one of the other
girls um, one of Marcus's othergirls saying he's been arrested.
You have to come home, dropeverything.
Um, he's in jail and I'm like,oh fuck, okay, let's go.
So I quit law school, but I washoping to.

(45:55):
I was hoping to come back to it, and so he was in jail for a
while.
He was in jail for like sixweeks until just before
Christmas, and then he came outat Christmas time and he was
like he was looking at thenumbers and he was looking at
like what I had made, but thiswas like 2010, this would have

(46:16):
been.
So it was like in the middle ofthe crash, nobody had any money
and certainly people didn'thave money to spend on champagne
and you know girls.
Um, so nobody was making anymoney because it was in the
middle of the crash, and so he'slooking at the numbers.
He was like what the fuck?
Where's all the money?
And I'm like, there, this,that's what it is, this is what

(46:36):
it is, uh.
And he's like, are you still inschool?
Because, like, that's what itis, this is what it is.
And he's like, are you still inschool?
Because, like, that'sunderstandable.
If you're only working two daysa week, then these numbers are
understandable.
And I was like, no, vicky toldme to get out of school.
I quit school.
I'm not, I quit school.
Which pissed him off.
And he was like no, no, no, no,you're a law student, you're
going to be him off.

(46:56):
And he was like no, no, no, no,you're a law student, you're
gonna be a lawyer.
We need lawyers in this, weneed a lawyer somewhere.
Um, I was like, yeah, well, butI was told to quit school.
And he was like these aren'tgood numbers, we're gonna put
you somewhere else.
And I was like now, hold on, I,I'm going to university in the
city where my family is, like mygranddad and my aunties and my

(47:19):
cousins.
I know everybody there, I'mfamiliar with that city, I'm
safe there, I don't want to goanywhere else.
And he was like no, no, no, no,you're going.
And then just after Christmas,literally like that, he was like
, yeah, we're going get in thecar.
I'm like I don't wanna.

(47:40):
And he was like no, no, notyour decision, get in the car.
And so I sat in the back of hiscar for like three hours and I
was driven to this place andthen put into a room and
essentially told to stay there.
And I stayed there until oneand a half years later like two

(48:02):
years later almost Um and I hadno contact with I didn't have
much contact with my motheranyway, cause you know, or would
you and um, but then I didn'thave any contact with my family.
All of a sudden, then I didn'thave contact with with my family
.
All of a sudden, then I didn'thave contact with the outside

(48:23):
world.
All of a sudden, and I was in abrothel, because in a brothel
you have a security guy at thedoor, right, if something goes
wrong.
It's in a city, so if you runout the door, the police is
right there.
But I was in a room and it wasillegal, so I couldn't call the
cops, even if I wanted to.
And all of a sudden there wasno one in the city who knew that

(48:45):
I was there.
And all of a sudden, marcus was300 miles away and all of a
sudden I was locked in this roomby myself, with rapists
knocking on my door every day.
And then, all of a sudden, theonly place I ever went to was
the shop where I longinglylooked at the vanilla tea, not

(49:05):
being able to afford it, and Igot my jaw broken there.
I got raped very severely thereand I couldn't leave.
And then we're coming fullcircle now.
Right, so when I say I wastrafficked, I was taken away

(49:29):
from a safe space and put into aplace where I was repeatedly
raped and hurt.
That is the definition of humantrafficking.
That is what happened to me.
The fact that I was driventhere in the back of human
trafficking.
That is what happened to me.
The fact that I was driventhere in the back of a mark.
That's what it looks like.
That's what most upper-classprostitution looks like.

(49:50):
They might seem like they'rethere voluntarily, they might
make tens of thousands ofdollars, but they there's a
reason.
They're not leaving, even ifthey can right.
That's what trafficking lookslike.
So that's what I want people toknow.

(50:12):
Is that if you're afraid of theboogeyman, who's gonna?
Who's gonna?
Put duct tape on your mouth andthrow you in the back of a van.
Cool, be afraid of that person,absolutely.
Be afraid of that person also,but also be afraid of the things
that seem less sinister, butthat doesn't make them any less

(50:32):
sinister.

Kertia (50:33):
Yeah, sometimes the boogeyman drives a Mercedes.
Yeah, yeah.

Ronika (50:37):
Exactly, exactly.

Kertia (50:39):
Exactly, and I'm happy that you pointed that out,
because you know, like, when youthink about human trafficking,
I have thought about it in thatway myself whereby, like you're
bounded your mouth, your hands,your feet you're thrown in the
back of a van or something,something you know, you're
dragged through the mud, um.

(50:59):
But there is also that aspectof human trafficking that when
you look at it from the surface,it seems like the person wants
to be there.
Yeah, you know, it seems likethey're enjoying it.
It seems like they're, they'relike living some type of life.

(51:20):
Yeah, it can be so deceptiveand so tricky those cases to
identify, yeah.
So, yeah, I'm definitely happythat you you pointed that out,
because I think that is um onemisconception when you think
about human trafficking, likeyou expect it to look really,

(51:40):
really ugly, and it does A lotof it does A lot of time, yeah.
But then you have that otheraspect as well, that it looks
like even, in some cases,glamorous.

Ronika (51:53):
Yeah.

Kertia (51:53):
And you have no idea the turmoil that this person is
experiencing every day.

Ronika (52:00):
Exactly Like.
In my time in Innsbruck I wasinvited to like millionaire roof
parties.
So like, yeah, it looksglamorous.
Of course it does.
There was a time when I wasinvited to this like really,
really like millionaire's houseand play, dress up for a night

(52:22):
and it looked luxurious.
And had I posted that party onInstagram, had I been allowed
social media, it would havelooked like I was living the
life.
I know people would have beenjealous girl, but I was driven
there to that party in that sameMercedes, yeah, and that's my
point.
So, like, um, andrew tate is thebest example.

(52:48):
So, like the parties that hewas having and the the thing
that he was charged with and thethings that he allegedly did,
they looked exactly like that,okay.
So fresh off the news, diddy.
So these right, that looksluxurious.

Kertia (53:01):
Exactly.

Ronika (53:02):
From the outside.
Yeah, nobody had duct tape ontheir mouth being thrown in the
back of a grimy van to get to aDiddy party.

Kertia (53:10):
Yeah.

Ronika (53:11):
Exactly what was the outcome?
So that's my point.
I'm not saying I was at thathigh end of things.
I definitely wasn't, butthere's a scale to these things
and I was like on the lowermiddle class kind of scale of
that.
I wasn't in like depths of it,but I wasn't at the top of it.

(53:32):
I was in the middle class kindof level, which is it exists and
that most of the people thatcame to me were middle-class
people, were teachers anddentists and dads and, and you
know, restaurant owners or orfirefighters or doctors or

(53:58):
whatever.

Kertia (53:59):
That's wild to me.

Ronika (54:02):
But these people weren't evil either.
They weren't evil.
It wasn't an evil thing thatthey were doing.
They weren't trying to oppresswomen.
They weren't trying to rape me,like most of them weren't.
Some of them did, of course,but most of the people who came
to see me weren't rapists.
They weren't violent.
They weren't trying toperpetuate a system of

(54:23):
oppression.
They were lonely and theyneeded someone to talk to, or
they had a fetish that theycouldn't talk to their wife
about, or they had just not beenwith anyone in so long that
they felt a need.
Like you know, on that aspect,I always I'm a huge advocate for
sex work, because it's a hell,it can be a healthy thing.

(54:44):
I always felt in those moments,I always felt really fulfilled
in what I was doing because Ifelt like choice.
Right, I was caring for thesepeople and that was that gave me
energy actually.
Yeah, you said that's a choiceand that's exactly it.

Kertia (54:58):
Yeah, it's okay when it's your choice, like this is
what you want to do for your ownreason, right, but then and
it's, it's really, you know,sorry to cut you off, it's just
no.
No, yeah, it's really sad inyour situation because I'm sure
those people who were lonely orwho had fetishes that they
couldn't explain to their wivesand just needed someone to talk

(55:20):
to or maybe they've, theyhaven't had intimacy in a while
most of them probably didn'trealize that you were being
trafficked.
There were just like paying fora service that they needed and
like it it's it sucks.

Ronika (55:37):
And whenever they asked me if like, because some of them
cared, obviously and wanted toknow whether there was anything
sinister going on or whether Iwas just a girl, you know,
trying to make a little bit ofmoney on the side, and that's
what I always said oh no, I'mjust a girl trying to make a
little bit of money, I'm happynobody's there.
Like that's what I always said,because that's what you have to

(55:59):
like.
You can't just, you know, and,ironically, I'm not opposed to,
I'm not opposed to entertain theidea of going back into
prostitution.
I won't ever Like, it's notgoing to happen.
But had I never been inprostitution, and if this was
like an option that was laid upto me now, I would entertain it

(56:23):
as a thought, because I'd belike oh yeah, well, this is not
something that is that's an evilthing to do.
Prostitution isn't a bad thing.
Sex work isn't, it's not icky,it has.
There's you, you know, whenthere's no forcing involved,
yeah, um, when it's consensual,it's a healthy thing for society

(56:46):
to have.
I think it should be legal, Ithink it should be regulated, I
think it should be, um, I thinktaxes should be paid, like
austria and germany really haveit down beautifully because it's
regulated.
There's's doctor's appointmentsthat you have to go to every
week and then every few monthsyou get a blood test and you get
medical care and you pay taxesand it's safe and it's regulated

(57:11):
.
Love that I think that's great,I think that's so healthy.
But the sinister side of itobviously is not.
So.
Sex work as a whole is not, isnot something I would.
I would dismiss or remove fromthe world if I had the power to
do that, because it can reallybe care work yeah, yeah, that is

(57:37):
so true, but you know, societyis conditioned to see, to
perceive it in a different way.

Kertia (57:45):
as to the lens of human trafficking someone, yeah,
that's a completely differentstory.
Yeah, what has your healingjourney been like, has your

(58:19):
healing journey been like?
But I want to, I want you tokind of like take it to when you
first walked away and neverlooked back.
What was that like?
And then, what was your healingjourney like after that?

Ronika (58:27):
so the decision was made on the 12th of April 2012 and I
woke up that morning, um, andbecause I had been growing a
spine over the last few months,I had a cup of vanilla tea.

Kertia (58:39):
Look, at you.

Ronika (58:41):
I had a cup of vanilla tea that morning because I spent
70 cents on myself.
Hey girl.
So I had a cup of vanilla teathat morning.
What a symbol, like what asymbol.
That cup was Right, I mean, andso empowering to have some tea.

(59:02):
It's the little things.
So I woke up that morning, Ihad a cup of vanilla tea, it was
springtime and I looked out mytiny little window it was the
only window I had.
It was like a tiny littlewindow with frosted glass so
nobody could see in.
And I looked outside and it wasthe sun was shining and it was

(59:22):
spring again, and it was 2012and I was 20 years old and I it
was like something clicked in me.
It was like something.
It was like something clickedin me.
It was like something.
It was like a, do you know?
Like an engine that just slowlyclicks into place and just, and

(59:47):
it clicked and I stood on mybed.
I was sitting on my bed with mytea and then I stood up on my
bed, like on the mattress, andlooked outside and I was like
I'm actually really smart.
I got into law school.
I graduated like in the topkind of you know, top 10 of my

(01:00:11):
class, speak three languages, Iknow Latin.
Like why am I here?
What am I doing?
Like, what am I doing?
I thought I was more than this.

(01:00:32):
I want to be a writer.
I want to be in film.
I want to work in film one day.
I want to be a writer one day.
I'm not doing that right now,I'm not writing anything.
I shouldn't be here, I don'thave to be here anymore.
And I walked out the door andwalked over to the bus stop to
get a bus into like the centerof town and I just walked around

(01:00:59):
town and then I came back andthen I looked up jobs on the
computer and I got.
I found like a little callcenter job doing surveys and I
called them up and they werelike, yeah, yeah, come in, come
into the office tomorrow.
The next morning I woke up andmy work phone was off, like my

(01:01:20):
work, like my call girl phonewas off and I had my vanilla tea
and I walked out the door andwalked into the office and got
that job.
They were like, yeah, no, ofcourse we'll hire you.
And I stood there and I waslike what do you mean you'll
hire me?

(01:01:40):
Like what do you mean?
How?
Why would you hire someone asstupid and as ugly and as
horrible as me?
And then I walked out thatoffice and I was like I have a
job.
I'm clearly not too stupid toget a job.

(01:02:03):
Like, obviously I'm not theworst person that has ever
existed in the history of theuniverse, clearly not Cause.
I got a job Right and then I gotanother job.
I got another job working foramnesty international, right, so
that was my second job out ofprostitution.
Was was um in the office atamnesty hq, yeah, um in ensbrook

(01:02:29):
, and I was like now, hold onnow.
A month ago I was a whore, nowI work, work at Amnesty
International.
So I'm not dumb.
Exactly, and then more and morethings kept happening that made
me realize that I'm not a badhuman being.
More and more things kepthappening that made me realize

(01:02:52):
I'm actually a good human being.
And then I make mistakes,mistakes and like.
Whenever I made a mistake, Iimmediately fell back into like,
oh my god, oh my god, I havemade a mistake.
I'm the worst.
I can't, I shouldn't, exist.
I'm just the most horrendousperson.
I remember very early on, um, inanother relationship.

(01:03:12):
Um, I wasn't in the mood forsex and the the guy was like hey
, do you want to get into it?
And I'm like I really don'tfeel like it today.
And he was like oh yeah, cool,that's fine, of course, that's
cool, that's fine, which is anormal reaction, right?

(01:03:32):
That's like oh, you're not inthe mood for sex, let's not have
sex.
Normal, that's a normalreaction, right?
That's like oh, you're not inthe mood for sex, let's not have
sex.
And I sat there and I was likeoh my god, I'm so sorry.
Oh my god, I'm so sorry.
No, of course we can have sex,of course, of course, of course
we can have sex.
I'm so sorry.
I said that I'm so.
Please forgive me, I'm so sorry.
I said that I didn't mean toreject you of course I shouldn't
reject you and he was like,what the fuck?

(01:03:55):
Like, if you're not in the moodfor sex, we're not having sex.
Like I'm not having sex withyou if you're not in the mood
for sex, and why are youapologizing to me because you're
not in the mood?
Like where is that coming from?
And then I sat back and I waslike, oh, oh, I'm allowed to say

(01:04:16):
no to sex, which I don't wantto, because I really actually
like sex.
My sexuality has that's a wholenother topic.
I'm really happy with the factthat I still enjoy sex, which is
.
That was not easy, but I waslike, oh, I get to say no to
people.
What, that's okay.
I get to say no to people.

(01:04:37):
I get to set boundaries, mindblown right, like what.
I get to set boundaries, I getto enforce them.
I people don't get to walk allover me for a healthy boundary,
like it was.
It was these tiny little momentsthat kept happening and kept

(01:04:58):
happening and kept happening, inwhich I realized just how
damaged I had been.
So to go back to the eyebrowstory um, thinking back on the
eyebrow story in the momentdidn't, didn't feel like it was
such a horrendous, like it was,how bad it actually was.
But thinking back as a healthyperson, now to the eyebrow story

(01:05:19):
, and it's that that makes merealize just how bad it was, and
that's me that makes me realizejust how far I've come to now
be able to say, no, I'm doingwhatever I want.
So what made up the journeywere tiny, tiny, tiny little
moments that were so fleetingand so kind of minuscule, so

(01:05:42):
kind of minuscule, but they alladded up and they all had a
positive trajectory.
But what I firmly believe, whatI really really very strongly
believe, is that the only thingthat made me realize those tiny
little moments and made merecognize them and made me

(01:06:05):
understand them for what theyare and then be able to use that
understanding to further myhealing, is education.
I was so privileged, soprivileged, to have been sent to
a really, really, really goodschool.
I was enormously privileged tohave a real interest in

(01:06:31):
psychology.
I was reading all the time.
I read fiction, I readnonfiction, I was reading the
entire time.
The only reason I am as healedas I am is because I had the
resources and the education torecognize what was going on.
So had I not had thatopportunity, had I been
illiterate, had I not been ableto have a good education, I

(01:06:54):
would not be here.
I would not be, as I would notbe as healed as I am, which is
why conversations like these areso important, which is why
everything I do in this kind ofwork is to educate people, to
talk to them about the thingsthat go on and the things that

(01:07:15):
can happen, because education isthe only thing that can really
really save you, because if youdon't understand the inner
workings of what's being done toyou, of what is going on with
you, you cannot save yourself,because you don't.
You cannot put into words, youcannot explain to yourself, and
if you cannot explain toyourself, no-transcript.

Kertia (01:08:11):
So that is what healed me.
Yeah, yeah, and just going backto what we said earlier about
some of the misconceptions,people would look at a situation
and think like, well, you'restupid if you couldn't or if you
didn't, or even you might thinkyou were stupid.
But, girl, you were in lawschool, exactly right, you were
studying, you were doing allthese things.

(01:08:31):
But I don't think people truly,you know, and I won't say all
people, of course, I don't wantto over generalize but I think a
lot of us take for granted thepsychological impact that our
environment has on us right andwhat that can do to you when
you've experienced, especiallysomething that you've

(01:08:52):
experienced Like no amount ofintellect can save you, when
you're operating from thatmindset.

Ronika (01:09:01):
Yeah, yes, 100%, exactly .
No amount of intellect can saveyou from going from being
abused, but intellect can help.
Not intellect, but, yeah,education is the only word I can
find.
Yeah, can help you get out ofit.
Exactly, because knowing moreabout what's going on, become

(01:09:24):
aware, understanding, yes, yeah,yeah, yeah, exactly, that can
really help.
So the smartest people in theworld, the smartest people in
the world, can fall victim tosomething.
Exactly.
And I want to be very clearhere as well that I don't come
across as saying, oh, I'm smartand therefore I got out, and
whoever doesn't get out isstupid.

(01:09:46):
No, no, no, no, stupid, no, no,no, no, no.
That's not what I'm saying.
Um, if you stay in an abusivesituation, that doesn't mean
you're stupid.
If you get out of it, thatdoesn't mean that you're
intellectually intelligent orwhatever.
That has nothing to do with inthat.
I want to stress that very muchthat I'm not saying that just
to highlight that this canhappen to anyone.

Kertia (01:10:06):
Like.
No one is immune.
You've always experienced abuse, Like since you've since you
were alive, right.

Ronika (01:10:15):
Anyone, anyone can experience human trafficking.
And anyone can get out andanyone can get out Also, kind of
the lack of fear.
And to literally come back tothe actual title of this podcast

(01:10:38):
, to come out on the other sideof fear, to use the phrase, is I
don't have a lot of fear leftright, um, which I think is a
very sad thing.
I would love to be able toafraid, to be afraid, um,

(01:10:58):
because my lack of fear foranything is a remnant of having
faced horrendous things.
So I'm not afraid of beingraped.
I'm not afraid of it Because,yeah, I got through it, I'll get
through it again.
I'm not afraid of being killed.

(01:11:19):
I've had a gun stuck down mythroat.
I face death.
I have faced death severaltimes.
I know what it's like to makepeace with death.
So when that moment comes andI'm gonna die, I'm gonna be like
, hey hi, death, I've, I've metyou before, let's go.
So I wish, I wish I was afraidof things still, or had the

(01:11:45):
capability of being afraid ofthings like normal, mundane
little things, because thatwould mean I'm a very healthy or
that would mean I'm a personwho hasn't, who didn't have to
experience and make peace withthe more horrendous things in
life.
The more horrendous things inlife.

(01:12:11):
So I'm not afraid, but it is a.
It is a.
It isn't a sign of.
It's not a sign of strength.
A lack of fear, I don't thinkis a sign of strength.
This is a sign of, of of deephurt and it's a source of great
sadness and grief.
So that's.
Another thing is that, yeah, wecan come out of these things.

(01:12:33):
We can, we can survive thesethings, but the scars that they
leave turn you, like we weresaying earlier, turn you into,
into a person that you weren'tsupposed to be.
Um, so, yeah, I'm not theperson I was supposed to be, but
I'm really okay with the personthat I am.
So it's a.

(01:12:55):
It's a weird kind of dualityyeah, yeah.

Kertia (01:13:02):
Now from your situation like how can others survive
human trafficking?
Like do you have any tips as tohow others can potentially help
themselves in these?

Ronika (01:13:14):
situations.
Um, I think, well, it reallydepends on how like severe it is
if you're, if like there aresituations that you can't just
get yourself out of, like youknow, if know, if it's the
situation where you're beingthrown in the back of a van and,
you know, shipped off and bound, no, you can't just get out of
it, like I did, you can't justwalk out the door, like there
are situations that you justcannot get yourself out of

(01:13:48):
situation.
If you're in a similarsituation that I was in, or an
abusive domestic situation,let's say you won't get out
until you get out.
So it is a process, it's aninternal process that has to run
its course and, like we weresaying in the beginning, you
have to forgive yourself for thelength of time it takes for
this to run its course.

(01:14:08):
What you can do, just activemeasures that you can take to
shorten that, to shorten theprocess of I think something's
wrong, like the journey from.
I think something's wrong toI'm leaving.
Like the journey from I thinksomething's wrong to I'm leaving

(01:14:30):
.
To shorten that journey is tolisten to other people, is to I
hate that phrase again to learnto love yourself, because it's
stupid, but is to um, dare tobuy that vanilla tea is to dare
to go get your eyebrows done, tostand in front of the mirror

(01:14:53):
and it can be really, reallyhard to look at yourself.
It can be such a difficult,triggering, traumatizing thing
just to look at yourself, but tobe to find those tiny, tiny
little moments of bravery.
And if you can't, if you can doit once and then you can't do
it again for six months, fine,you already did it once.
If it takes a long time for youto get back, it takes a long

(01:15:16):
time.
Forgive yourself for the time ittakes you, the more you forgive
yourself for every second thatyou're quote unquote wasting.
It's not a waste In the spacethat you're being abused in Tiny

(01:15:41):
little moments of taking abreath and forgiving.
I'm here right now.
I forgive myself for being here.
I'm here right now.
I forgive myself for being here.
I'm here right now and I'mgoing to be brave and appreciate
myself for 10 seconds.
Then I'm going to feel shitabout myself again, but for 10
seconds every week, every month,I'm going to tell myself that

(01:16:03):
I'm okay.
And you watch how those 10seconds turn into a minute, turn
into 10 minutes, turn into anhour.
I'm going to tell myself thatI'm okay and you watch how those
10 seconds turn into a minute,turn into 10 minutes.

Kertia (01:16:12):
Turn into an hour.

Ronika (01:16:13):
Turn into eternity when, all of a sudden, oh yeah, you
know what?
I'm good, I'm a good person andyou cannot treat me like this.
You're not allowed to treat melike this because I'm a good
person who's worthy of love 10seconds, and then then 20, and
then 30, and then a minute, andif you do 10 seconds and you

(01:16:34):
never do them again, you had 10seconds of living your fullest
life.
That is enough.
If that is all you achieve,that is already enough, right?
So tiny, tiny, tiny, tinylittle steps, as tiny as you can
possibly make them, becauseonce you've taken that tiny
little step, you did somethingsuccessful, you completed a task

(01:16:59):
, you did something, youachieved something Huge.
That's huge.
You set yourself of, of, ofwalking out the door and and I
don't know taking over the world.
You're not gonna do that in aday like, it's just very
difficult to achieve target, butsetting yourself the target of,
of looking in the mirror for 10seconds and not letting the

(01:17:21):
voice in your head tell you thatyou're stupid and ugly and
horrible, okay, that you canachieve, yeah, so that's what I
would say I love that.

Kertia (01:17:32):
I love that.
That's beautiful.
Tiny steps, tiny, tiny steps,tiny steps.

Ronika (01:17:38):
Yeah, I love that and they really add up.

Kertia (01:17:42):
Yeah, yeah, over time it makes a difference.
Yeah, you know it's.
It's just so important whatyou're doing, the way that
you're using your voice to bringawareness to this experience,
and you know yeah, I feel, yeah,I feel very lucky and
privileged.
Yeah, yeah, thank you so?
Much like tell me more aboutyour work in the film industry.

Ronika (01:18:07):
Yeah, I love talking about that too.
My work is prettystraightforward.
I work as a screenwriter, sohalf the time I work on my own
scripts, which tend to bestories that are very
character-driven, very kind ofheavy on internal, internal
issues, like issues, thequestions like how, how do you

(01:18:28):
get out, how do you survive, howdo you live on, how do you
become yourself?
Um, so those are the storiesI'm really drawn to as a just as
a writer, um, but then I workon a lot of commissions as well.
So my most recent commissionI'm so glad I get to talk about
it now, because it was underwraps for like a while and I
couldn't talk about it.
But now I get to talk about itbecause it's kind of um heading,

(01:18:49):
heading towards, uh, something.
Um was this really interestingfantasy project which is kind of
like a game of thrones, vibe,um called matriarchy, which was
which kind of capsulates themoment in in human history and
it's all based on archaeologicalfinds and it's all based in
reality, but the moment in humanhistory where Europe turned

(01:19:13):
from being a matriarchal societytowards being a patriarchal
society and like the moment of,like the shift of having like a
kind of in peace with nature,tribal culture to a conquering
kind of, you know, war, likeculture and the pivotal moments
that happened in that time, andit's all based in science and

(01:19:34):
it's all based in reality.
And I could not be more excitedto be working on that project.
I was very lucky to be involved, I was hired on that project
and I was very, very glad to beinvolved.
So it's very much my vibe.
So that's kind of myscreenwriting work.
I, every year, I publish apoetry collection.

(01:19:56):
So that's kind of my moretherapeutic type of writing,
where I'm just like allowingmyself to be myself writing,
where I'm just like allowingmyself to be myself, um, so I
love that.
I love that very much.
And, and every year I inviteanother writer to to write an
introduction for me, um, whichis always great because I get to
collaborate with these amazingother writers.

(01:20:17):
So, yeah it, I get to spend myday telling stories, yeah, um,
which is just the best thingever, like it's.
I'm so privileged, I'm so luckythat I get to do that, uh, that
I get to that.
I get to spend my whole lifenow, for the rest of my life,

(01:20:38):
creating things, and I get to beon exciting film sets and I get
to go to Cannes, I get to, like, I get to do all these amazing
things, which is so good andwhich is so amazing.
So, yeah, I was very lucky tobe able to do that.

Kertia (01:20:55):
That's amazing, Ronita.
That is so, so amazing.
Is there any more of your workthat you'd like to mention while
we're still here?

Ronika (01:21:06):
Yeah, I mean my, my books are available on Amazon.
So if anybody's interested inkind of experiencing reading
short stories or reading poetrythat very much reflect the
journey I was on, anybody whokind of hopefully, hopefully,
people enjoyed, um listening tous now would probably enjoy

(01:21:27):
reading, reading those books,because they they do really
reflect every philosophy thatI've spoken about today is
reflected in that work.
If anybody is struggling with astory that they'd like to get
out, I'm always happy to helpout with.
I've coached many, many writers, um to kind of help them with,

(01:21:52):
you know, especially, especiallywhen they're stuck with, like
characters.
Um, I tend to, I tend to alwaysget invited in to help out with
when they're stuck withcharacters.
So if there's any buddingwriters out there who need help,
um, I'm more than happy to helpout.
But yeah, that's me in anutshell.
That's the plugging done anyway.

Kertia (01:22:14):
Is that your artwork behind you?

Ronika (01:22:16):
Yes, this is Medusa Obviously Medusa, for all the
symbolism that we get to see.
I painted her while I wasliving in an off-grid cabin in
the forest.
I was living in a cabin thathad no electricity and no like.
No electricity, no internet, noheating, in the middle of

(01:22:39):
winter in Ireland, and it wasamazing.
It was so good I like Ireland,and it was amazing it was so
good I like had to chop woodevery morning um to like keep
myself warm and like made soupevery day on the fire.
It was amazing.
And then I painted her.
Um, I painted Medusa, uh, toremind myself that women, um,

(01:23:02):
even when we have snakes on ourheads, we are still empowered
and beautiful, beautiful.
So that's my Medusa, yeah.

Kertia (01:23:12):
I love the colors yeah, she's, she's very.

Ronika (01:23:18):
I like her very much.
She's very, she's a very goodcomposition that's beautiful,
ronika.

Kertia (01:23:26):
I love it Any parting words.
This was an amazingconversation.
Thank you so much.

Ronika (01:23:32):
Oh my God, I had the best time.
Thank you so much.
This was really.
This was so.
Thank you so much for theopportunity.
I knew we were gonna, I knew wewere gonna gel.
I was like I knew this.
It's been such a pleasure.
Oh my God, Thank you so, so, somuch.
The work that you're doing isreally important.
The work that you're doing isabsolutely incredible because

(01:23:57):
what you're doing is you'regiving a voice and you're using
your own voice as well, and weunderestimate just how powerful
that can be, how powerful yourvoice is.
So thank you for the work thatyou're doing.
Please keep doing it.
It's, it's incredible.
So, yeah, absolutely I'm I'm soglad, I'm so glad we got to

(01:24:23):
have this chat.
Thank you.

Kertia (01:24:24):
Thank you so much, renika.
It was such a pleasure it was,it was, it was amazing.

Ronika (01:24:32):
Thank you, thank you so much.

Kertia (01:24:37):
This was such a beautiful conversation.
I am so grateful to Renika forsharing her heart with us.
This was so informative.
It was emotional.
It was so touching to hear hershare details of a very personal
story, something so personal,so close to her heart, um so I'm

(01:24:59):
so, so grateful for that.
If you'd like to reach outtoika, if you'd like to hear
more about her story, I'veincluded her links in the show
notes of this episode where youcould get her books, where you
could also reach out to her.
For budding writers who wouldlike to have assistance, you've
heard Renika offer to assist you.

(01:25:20):
So for budding writers who arejust getting in, who would like
some direction, who would likesome assistance with their
character development orprobably anything else, reach
out to Ronika.
I've included her contact inthe show notes.
Thank you so much for listeningto the Other Side Affair.
I am so grateful for yourpresence.
I'm so grateful for yoursupport.
Love you all.

(01:25:40):
Take care Until next time.
Thank you.