Learning Through Our Emotions | with Malisa Hepner - The Other Side of Fear

Episode Transcript
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Kertia (00:00):
Hi guys, welcome, welcome to another week on the
other side of fear podcast.
This conversation was had withMalisa Hepner.
It was so fun, so heartfelt.
Malisa, she is a licensedtherapist who is on a mission to

(00:20):
help people quiet the noise oftrauma, to reconnect with
themselves and embody the light.
I just love that.
She's also the host ofEmotionally Unavailable podcast,
where she has deep, meaningfuland transformative conversations
just like this one, and she isjust super passionate about

(00:44):
helping others move past a lotof the things that keep us stuck
, and this conversation,personally, was a reminder for
me that we need to allowourselves to be tender.
A lot of us, myself included,spent such a long time being
strong that strong became thedefault operating system.

(01:08):
But there is a time and placefor that right, and I understand
that we are not all exposed toor surrounded by safe
environments or emotionally safepeople.
That allows us or evenfacilitate us being able to lean
into our softness.
But the least we can begin todo is to practice being tender

(01:36):
and gentle with ourselves.
Give yourself the space to feelyour emotions, to be anything
but strong, and then offeryourself compassion.
All right, let's get into it isthere anything that particularly

(02:12):
that you wanted to focus?
on, or you want to just let itrip.

Malisa (02:16):
Just let it rip, man, I'm good with anything.

Kertia (02:17):
Awesome , okay, so you mentioned, um, your childhood
and you spoke about.
You speak about adversechildhood experiences.
I'd love for you to kind ofgive us the lay of the land with
that so that we are, I guess,more familiar with what that
means.
I know we talk a lot abouttrauma, but we don't often

(02:39):
particularly mention adversechildhood experiences and kind
of like how deep that goes andwhat the impact of that could
look like.
So I'd love for you to get intothat and you could go as far
and as deep as you'd like to.
I'm here to receive.

Malisa (02:57):
Yeah well, you know, I love starting with adverse
childhood experiences or ACEs,just because I guess I thought
it was a more familiar term thanit actually is, and I'm glad to
know like I'm already likethinking of someone else you
should talk to also.
But the thing is is that Ithink people overlook what can

(03:22):
be considered traumatic.
And so adverse childhoodexperiences is a essentially a
questionnaire that was developedto try to like put the the
biggest hitting pieces of traumathat they could come up with in
a very succinct way in a likethe original was only like 10
questions, cause it was like 10categories.

(03:44):
Now listen, I'm going to bereally honest.
I'm not like fully educated onthe history of this
questionnaire or anything.
The way I learned about thatparticular questionnaire is I
was working in education at thetime and a lot of the trauma
informed practices come fromthat questionnaire.
Unfortunately, I wasn'treceiving that questionnaire

(04:04):
from someone who was enoughtrauma informed, so they just
kind of like handed it out toeveryone Like this is what you
know, we're having people lookat and you need to look at this.
And it was actually the veryfirst time I made the connection
of like yo, I'm just a grownkid.
Like I should have been given alot more warning before you

(04:25):
handed me this piece of paper.
I didn't understand that ittriggered me really bad either.
I just knew I was nauseous andnot feeling well.
So it covers physical abuse,sexual abuse, incarceration of a
parent, incarceration of asibling, and then it kind of it
pulls from basically thosethings into five other questions

(04:48):
too.
But it really covers like thebiggest ways that you can
experience trauma and it's aquick little measure like a five
out of 10, 10 out of 10.
I happen to have the highestscore that you can get on the
questionnaire and so I lead withthat, because I did have a very
extensive history of childhoodtrauma.

(05:10):
I was raised primarily inkinship, foster care with my
grandma, but there was someoutside of family care very
early on in life, like beforethe age of one, and my parents
were still involved in our lives.
So it ranged in degree ofinvolvement and, like my mom had

(05:33):
a those are my babies approach,so she didn't care She'd come
around, no matter how messed upshe was or whatever.
My dad was more of like I don'treally want the babies to see
me all jacked up they also hadaddictions to different types of
substances that led to verydifferent behaviors.
Together they were incrediblyviolent.
I think my dad was stilldrinking then and they both

(05:57):
reacted very violently toalcohol.
I think around the time theydivorced is when he didn't drink
anymore, but he still usedheroin and all kinds of other
stuff and then he died when Iwas 15 and all kinds of stuff
with my siblings that I wasraised with I have other half
siblings from my dad, but I, asmuch as I love them and whatever
they weren't a part of thischildhood, because one

(06:18):
is way older and was living in adifferent state, and two were
way younger and just had atotally different dynamic in
their family.
I mean, my step-mom waswonderful.
I couldn't have asked foranyone better actually for me,
for my sisters, for my dad.
But I was raised mostly with mytwo brothers, one a year older,
one a year younger, whichactually, as a mother, gives me

(06:39):
incredible empathy for why mymom couldn't be more successful,
because I would not be able toraise three children that were
little stair sets.
I'm not going to lie.
But she then died when I wasalmost 22 and married pregnant
with my first kid from cirrhosisWell, from hep C and cirrhosis,
and it was basicallycomplications from those

(07:00):
diseases.
She had esophageal varices, andso basically I had all this
trauma and I remember, at like19, being like I don't know.
I just don't think my childhoodreally had an effect on me the
way it did my brothers, causethey were already leading like
very different lives than me.

Kertia (07:16):
And.

Malisa (07:17):
I'm kind of the I was the golden child, so I was
making all the right decisionsfor all the wrong reasons and
just like motivated by spite.
You know, like cause.
I'm not going to be thestatistic you guys keep telling
me I'm going to be.
And you know crazy familymembers with the just nonstop
talking badly to kids about kids, you know whatever.
So I had a lot to prove tomyself and others or at least I

(07:40):
felt like I did and that wasreally my key motivator, instead
of like what's going to be afulfilling life On the flip side
of that, I've always consideredmyself really lucky because as
a child, I believed my purposewas to endure these things, to
then find the way on the otherside and show others how to do
that.
I mean, before the age of five,I was solidly like this is my

(08:04):
purpose, I'm going to make adifference in this world because
of these experiences.
And then, as I got a littleolder, I'm like was it a Lulu?
Was I just coping?
But the missions never change.
It's always felt the exact sameand so that's kind of where I'm
at now is I realized oh did havean effect did.
At now is I realized oh didhave an effect did, and a big

(08:31):
one.
I spent my whole adult liferunning from all of the feelings
, from those experiences, andthen I just reached a really
profound period of darkness.
And this is me on the otherside of that and sharing my
light with others.

Kertia (08:43):
Wow.
So what did it take for you toturn it all around?
And you know talking about howyou were perceiving things when
you were five years old.
How do you even perceive theexperiences that you have right
now?
And then you mentioned in goingthrough this period of darkness
.
Then how did you turn thataround as well?

Malisa (09:14):
Well, it kind of started with, um, like just really
wanting to die and and figuringout, if I'm not going to die,
how do I make this existencemore peaceful?
And I just kind of startedmoving pieces, like I literally
was just trying to survive fromabout November of 23 to July of
24.
Like I was just going throughthe motions, trying my best,

(09:37):
like using what littleinformation I had about trauma,
thinking I knew more than I did,honestly, and not knowing what
I didn't know.
It was just like inhibitingevery single ounce of peace,
like I just could not moveforward.
But I was like, okay, I knowthat there is an answer.
So I kind of just got reallycreative and started working on

(09:59):
some children's books.
I wanted to learn theself-publishing process.
I did a lot of things like that, but I knew I was in a really
toxic work environment and Ialso knew I had this purpose and
I wanted to pursue it morefully.
So I kind of just decided I wasnot going to be scared to quit
my job anymore and I did thatand started a podcast and really
just put a lot of effort intogrowing me and it was actually

(10:23):
one of my earliest podcastguests that made the biggest
difference in my life becauseshe works for a guy in Arizona
named Troy Love.
He's also a licensed clinicalsocial worker and he wrote a
book called the Finding PeaceWorkbook and he has a whole
method, a course you can buy andwhatever.
I just did the workbook but shekind of walked me through.
I had her on a couple ofdifferent episodes and she kind

(10:44):
of walked me through becausewhat he did is he broke shame
down into different archetypesand you get really familiar with
like the personality and thenarratives.
And once that was introduced,the beautiful thing about our
subconscious is is that itimmediately takes in the
information.
And the next time, because whatwas happening is my brain was

(11:06):
very, very, very full of what Ithought was just negative
self-talk, but it was so loudand it felt like personalities
fighting with each other.
And I have my older brother isactually very chronically
unmedicated schizophrenic and mymom was diagnosed with
schizophrenia too.
But in hindsight the way shedescribed it sounded a lot like

(11:27):
what I was going through and Iknow even people have thought
BPD and I'm like no.
Once I figured out what theseshame narratives were, I was
able to eradicate them.
So I had all this noise and itwas so hateful.
One archetype would be like Iwas just.
I had all this noise and it wasso hateful Like.
One archetype would be like youknow better than that.
Why are you doing that?

(11:48):
And then another one would belike well, I wouldn't have done
that if?
they hadn't done.
Da-da-da-da-da-da-da, Iwouldn't have done that.
And then here comes the judgeagain, who's like girl you
already know.
And then we got the rebelcoming in being like we hate
everyone, just act however youwant.
Really just going through mybrain, just figuring out.
But it was the very first timethat my brain started that stuff

(12:09):
again after a conversation withJenny that's who it was my
subconscious was like hey,remember how we were going to
try to figure this out.
And it was the first time Icould actually hear and
understand what I was saying tomyself.
In these moments of stress I hadzero coping skills literally.

(12:30):
I mean, I couldn't deal withthe most minor of inconveniences
.
In fact, it's hilarious to methat I started a podcast with
zero understanding of how to doa podcast, no tech understanding
.
I mean I just said to myselfperfect is the enemy of good.
We're going to do it and it'sgoing to be as crappy as it
needs to be until we figure itout.
But like I remember one day,the third tech issue of the day

(12:54):
and I'm wailing because I haveno ability to calm myself, like
my early recordings, my voice isso deep because I would be
crying for hours beforehandtrying to get things figured out
.
And it was awful and I remembersitting there going I get it, I
get it.
I get it Because I was luckyenough to have like a real

(13:14):
spiritual awakening during myhealing, and so I was like I get
it.
You're saying, as long as I'mgoing to respond this way to
every minor inconvenience,you're going to keep giving me
every little minor inconvenience.
And so I just said okay, okay,I don't even care about this.
I don't know who I'm talking to, I don't know.
You know, I'm just like I don'teven care about this, that's
fine, and like I really had tolearn how to just not make a

(13:39):
really big deal about everything.
But it was my podcast gueststhat really saved me, because I
was like, ooh, good idea, let'sstart getting professionals on
Give me advice.
And I'm a therapist.
But at this time I wasn't atherapist.
I was licensed, but I wasn'tdoing that.
I was just trying to fix myself.
I was like yo, we got to dosomething different here.

(14:00):
And that book man it changedeverything for me.
Obviously, I've learned so muchmore since then, in the last
year, but it changed everythingfor me.

Kertia (14:11):
Wow, that is amazing, Melissa.
So, like you know, speaking ofyou not being able to cope with
small, little littleinconveniences, how did your
spirituality really come intoplay?
Inconveniences, how did yourspirituality really come into
play, Like?
I'd love to know more aboutwhat your own awakening was like
and what you learned about yourexperience from that.

Malisa (14:36):
Well, great question.
My spiritual awakening reallystarted in my understanding of
astrology.
I've always loved astrology,but the more I got into it, the
more it resonated with me and Iwas friends with somebody who
was friends with someone elsewho was super into astrology and
he was like you know.
She says astrology is more likea blueprint of your life or

(15:00):
like your destiny.
It's not like a coincidencethat these are the
characteristics you get, if thisis what's going on.
So I started looking into thatand I had gone to a medium
because my parents had gone,been gone for so long, and I was
in this you know, are theyproud of me place.
So I'd gone to a medium and hesaid things that were very
triggering to me because Iwasn't there yet, but I just

(15:23):
filed it away and I was like youknow, I don't believe that and
it kind of pissed me off thatyou said that, but also I'm open
, so I'm going to just keep itback here at the back of my mind
.
And then, as I kept goingunderstanding my astrology and
looking at it as a blueprint, itmade so much sense to me, like
it really laid it all out and Icould see each little piece

(15:44):
coming together and so it kindof restored my ability to have
faith in something.
Because I was born and raised inOklahoma and we're very
Southern Baptist here and invery everyone here is kind of a
fundamentalist.

(16:04):
I mean like you can't practicereligion here without fire and
brimstone and nastyness I meanreally.
So as I got older I kind ofshed all of those beliefs and
and they just they didn't likeresonate with me anymore and I
just believed in nothing forprobably seven years or so and
that didn't sit right.
I was like I don't know.
I mean I'm comfortable with theword universe but I really

(16:30):
didn't explore it anymore.
You know what I mean.
I was like I mean it wassomething, but what?
And so astrology, kind of justlike I was like there's at least
a path, I see a way forward.
And so it was actually episodefour, I think three or four of
my podcasts.
I had just done an identityaudit the night before for like
a new moon and you know they'relike write down everything that

(16:50):
you know you want your futureself to be.
What's different between whoyou are now and who this person
is?
And I was really hating onmyself Like yeah, I got to work
so hard to be this person.
And then the next morning I wasdriving and it just hit me like
, well, why am I working so hardto become only this, like Zen

(17:15):
Buddha person?
Like I wanted to be perpetuallyunbothered and yeah, I'm
serious, I thought that was theway I did.
I was like, okay, and part ofthat's because I've been very
reactive most of my life and somy shame really lies in the fact
that I was mean, I was loud,but I mean really only with the

(17:36):
people very close to me was Ireactive.
Everyone else got freezer pond,you know.
So I was like I'm going to beBuddha up in here, I'm going to
no one's going to bother me.
And I'm like, yeah, buddhadoesn't have any stress.
Man, those monks, they don'thave any stress, they're out
there in the nature, what?
And I also realized like I hadjust become really good at
standing up to like toxic peopleand and and really advocating

(17:59):
for myself, for the peoplearound me, whatever.
And I was like, you know, Ikind of just learned how to hold
this fire.
I don't want to extinguish it.
What am I doing?
And it was in that moment thatI was like I already am all
those things.
I am already all these thingsthat I'm trying to be.
I just need to be, you know,like unbecome a few things and
like myself for who I am rightnow.

(18:20):
That was the beginning.
That was really the firstepiphany that I had, but that
was like one.
And then, two hours later, I'mgetting mind blowing, eye
opening, soul stretchingrevelations about myself, like
every few hours for probably twomonths Like I was like, okay,
we might be in spiritualpsychosis, friends, because I'm

(18:42):
a new person every four hours ofmy life.
I don't know it, just like.
The more I was open toquestioning why I was doing what
I was doing, the more answers Igot to like, hey, you're on the
right track, this is what we'resupposed to do.
Question yourself why are youtaking everything you think,
feel, say, do, at face value andjust asking myself some really

(19:03):
simple questions like hmm, is itpossible that you hate this
about this person because youactually hate some part of that
in you?
That was a really big awakeningfor me, understanding that we
really are just mirrors for oneanother and that you can't have
people in your energy thataren't just like you, because
that's not the way it works.
I spent a lot of time figuringout how I was just like

(19:26):
everybody else, how I do thesame stuff, I act the same way.
Maybe it looks different, butour motivators really aren't any
different.
We're just trying to keepourselves safe and that's our
subconscious, that's its job.
So learning that reallyimpacted me like, oh, okay, and
now it's kind of when I figured,figured out, like I've been

(19:47):
making myself a victim ofcircumstances for my entire life
, without realizing it, andthat's something that I would
have fought someone about ifthey had called me someone who
likes to victimize themselves,like if someone said that to me,
I would have been really angry.
But man, it was true, it wastrue.
I felt like everything in theworld was just happening to me

(20:07):
all the time, and I just don'tview things like that anymore.

Kertia (20:11):
Yeah, I love the way you explained that and I love that
for you where you are right now.

Malisa (20:17):
Yeah, it's good, it's good.
Listen, I'm not playing.
I mean, I still have stress.
I still will go through a boutof three weeks where I'm like,
what am I doing?
You know, and then I justbounce back and I'm like this is
what we're doing, yeah.

Kertia (20:37):
We're changing the world .
Melissa, I'm really intriguedabout you.
Know what triggered you.
If you're okay with sharing,yeah.
What was it that the mediumsaid that triggered you about
your parents?
What was so triggering for you?

Malisa (20:53):
It was the idea that I chose this experience and that I
chose my parents.
Yeah, I believe that now that'sthe way I view the universe and
our role here and what ourpurpose is and why we have this
human experience.
I'm aligned with that now, butat the time that was very

(21:16):
foreign.
I mean, I knew nothing of that.
Reincarnation was something Iwas familiar with, so I was very
willing to lean into thoseideals.
But like, yeah, um, and theneven like a friend that I made
on the podcast, who is aspiritualist, really triggered
me talking about victimconsciousness, and so he'd

(21:36):
always be like, okay, so thenwhy'd you attract this
experience?
And I was like don't ask me,that, that's rude.
I just like those ideals justweren't familiar to me and I was
still pretty sheltered in anysort of spirituality, so I
didn't understand that was areally common thing to believe
and for me it just like it justhit me deep in my heart.

(21:58):
I was like that's rude.

Kertia (22:01):
That's a tough one.
That is a tough one.
I think that is what.
That's one of the mostchallenging concepts that we
have accepted, because, like,even when I first came across
that concept, I was just likewhat, why the hell would I
choose this?
It's shitty.
Nobody wants.

(22:22):
Like what are you?

Malisa (22:24):
saying, but it makes so much sense to me now, like I I
had a yeah, I had a medium on myshow not that long ago.
Man, I got so much healing fromthat conversation because I've
actually carried a lot of angerabout my grandma for a lot of
years because she was verynarcissistic.
She's never come through anyreading with a medium.

(22:48):
Because that first one I wentactually three times because I
was like, oh, I was just likewanting to learn more, you know,
and he was expensive too.
But I was like, well, you know,we got to go see our dead folk,
but this medium immediatelyshe's like, oh, your grandma.
And I was like that'sinteresting, she never pops

(23:09):
through.
She's like, yeah, it's alwaysthe one you don't want to talk
to that will come through for me.
And I was like word what shegot to say.
And she didn't say a lot, butwhat she said was actually about
my mom, cause my mom has alwayspopped through very fast, which
was surprising to me becauseshe was the speak in tongues,
dance in the aisle church person.

(23:31):
So, I want you to know that.
So I was always like she's notgoing to come through, because I
didn't understand what spiritswere.
So it was like, oh well, she'smy mom on the other side.
So I was like she don't likethat kind of stuff, but she
really didn't care, so she wasalways first to come through.
But what changed me deep to mycore is when she said yeah, it's

(23:51):
like your mom.
And see, the first medium saidthis too, but I didn't
understand it.
Then he maybe used a littledifferent language, but he said
the exact same thing and Ididn't know what he meant
because I wasn't familiar withsoul contracts at the time.
And so she's like yeah, it'slike your mom kind of just
didn't pass the test here and sonow the help that she was
supposed to like grow to get to,to help you grow through your

(24:15):
mission, she can't do it on thisside because she died.
She's still doing that on theother side.
And he told me that too, but Iw I didn't understand what he
meant, so I was like, hey, okay,I guess.
Um, but hearing that about mymom made me have that
understanding about my grandmatoo, like I can see in our
astrology where, like our youknow, like we absolutely have

(24:39):
soul ties, like absolutely.
And so it just made me forgive.
For the first time I was able tojust lay all my anger down and
get to that place where I'vereached with really most people
of like love and compassion,cause I can see how I've done
those things too.
I'm the first to get on hereand say, like I was a terrible
mother.
Was I the worst mother?

(25:00):
No, but I wasn't like the besteither, and I can fully admit
all the ways in which I'veharmed my children, not
physically, thankfully, but forme the physical abuse left way
less scars than the emotionalmental abuse you know so.
I'm not going to pretend like Ididn't make a lasting negative
impact on my children.

(25:20):
I work really hard now forrepair and I'm lucky they love
me, they forgive me, whatever.
But it still comes up a lot andso I kind of am able to look
and go yeah, I do that too, or Idid that too, or I know exactly
why a person does that, and Ithink that's really what's
helped me the very most.
That's what's expanded myconsciousness the most is every

(25:44):
time I can sit and go yeah, okay.
Well, I mean, I know why aperson would do that.
Does that mean I'm going to bearound them anymore?
Like I was just talking to myoldest, who's 22, the other day
about a relative of mine and Iwas like Ooh, yeah, they're a
narcissist, blah, blah, blah.
And I was just going off andhe's like yeah, but weren't they
raised by so-and-so?
And I was like, yeah, he's like, yeah, I mean it kind of makes

(26:05):
sense.
I was like no, you're so rightabout that.
And actually I feel reallysorry for this person, because I
know that they really do haveso much good in their heart and

(26:25):
I know what narcissism is.
It some sociopaths, guys likethat aren't, you know, like just
a narcissist and overall, justview like I almost have a good
sense of what age they got stuckat.
Whenever I'm around somebodywho's that emotionally stunted,
stunted and so like, when I workwith clients, I'm like, okay,

(26:46):
but imagine them as a 10 yearold boy, what you know like.
Does that change the way youfeel about this at all?
Wouldn't this be how a 10 yearold boy would respond?
Not because I want people to getover things or allow things.
We have a tendency to makeourselves believe that other
people's behavior has anythingto do with us, and it just
doesn't.
So I try to get people to areally empowered place like love

(27:08):
yourself, have compassion foryourself, and everything that
you do should come from thatplace.
Not spite, not hate, not angerI mean there are there's a place
for anger, but you know what Imean Like love is the highest
frequency in my belief, alongwith gratitude.
So just loving yourself.
I also found that that is theonly true love.

(27:29):
Is this love that you cancultivate within yourself and
then you can share it withothers.
Because I was a person spendingmy entire life trying to get
the feeling of being special,that I was chosen by people, and
yet I felt on the periphery ofevery relationship that I had
and like I loved everybody morethan they loved me and I was

(27:50):
nobody's person and I wasn't thespecial one or whatever.
And then, when I really startedto pour into myself and feel
that love for myself, then Icould receive because it was
only ever a projection of theway I felt about myself anyway,
yeah, so profound, so profound,melissa.

(28:27):
Thank you.

Kertia (28:28):
And nobody likes to hear that and nobody likes to admit
how much we cling to thatvictimhood.
I mean, unpleasant thingshappen to people all the time,
right, and it sucks, and it'sokay to be in that state and
experience the grief of that.
But yeah, like when we kind oftake that and then it becomes

(28:54):
our identity and then we usethat as like a crotch for
everything that we do movingforward, then that's just like a
whole different thing thatwe're creating and it's just
yeah to be stuck there.
It's really something else andI understand the challenge of
coming out of that, you know,and it's yeah, as you said, it's

(29:17):
not easy hearing, you know.

Malisa (29:19):
No, not at all.
I mean, I was like, well, we'renot going to be friends anymore,
but see it almost helped me,because that's one of the
biggest ways that I wasvictimizing myself without
realizing it was.
I actually found that I havepushed everyone away.
My entire life I've kepteveryone at arm's length.
I didn't understand that on aconscious level, because on the

(29:43):
outside what you'd see is a lotof trauma, dumping, a lot of
people pleasing so anything youneed, I'm going to be there, you
know, making sure that you needme so that I can feel good and
so that you think I'm a goodperson, because perception was
the only thing I cared about.
Also, subconsciously, I mean,none of this was anything I was
aware of and I thought I was themost self-aware person on earth

(30:06):
.
Okay, it's embarrassing.
Actually it really is.
Sometimes I cringe because I'mlike that's so, and even in the
last few months, the way that Ihave noticed pushing people away
or victimizing myself is.
Well, the reason my show iscalled Emotionally Unavailable
is because I learned I'm veryemotionally unavailable.
Then I learned we all are untilwe figure it out, and so I kind

(30:30):
of realized that one of thereasons that I didn't share
anything vulnerable in real time, like I was kind of the isolate
until the problem was over.
You know, maybe it'd be a week,maybe it'd be two weeks,
whatever, and then be like, ohLord, I mean I almost died last
week.
It was so rough, you know, butI could say it like jokingly and
just be very comedic about itand I retold all of my trauma

(30:53):
like a standup comedian.
I mean, in fact, it was my goalto go and do that on a stage at
some point because I had noconnection to those stories.
Now it is tougher for me torelive some of that because I'm
very connected to them.
Not that it's like a problem,but there are times, like if I'm
giving a talk or whatever, thatI can get kind of emotional

(31:13):
about what I'm saying and I'malso not embarrassed about that
anymore.
But I just realized I wouldn'tshare my stuff in real time.
So I've started to do that.
It's a practice and I suck atit, but I'm getting a little
better.
So I'm working, I'm working,I'm working on sharing the
stressors and then, when I do,someone pisses me off because I

(31:35):
don't like their response andwhat I figured out is every time
it was like this is the exactreason you don't share, but
anytime I tell myself something,this is exactly why, about
anything I now know that is likemy trigger to stop and figure
out what was I thinking, becausethat is confirmation bias.
Every time I'm figuring out howI've been lying to myself my

(31:58):
entire life, telling myself if Itell people things, I'm unsafe.
Yes, it's a trauma response tonot want unsolicited advice.
If you're not aware of that,just know it is, it's okay.
It doesn't make you anarcissist, it doesn't make you
a bad person.
It's a trauma response.
Now the next step is learninghow to take the advice, whether
you wanted it or not.
It's not about taking it, it'sabout hearing without erupting

(32:24):
like a volcano, which is kind ofwhat I would do.
You know that was my reactivity.
I didn't know how to handlethose triggers and now, like I
would be like people need tostop saying this or don't ask me
this Cause.
Then I'm in a position to haveto say no and I don't want to
say no all because I was so badat boundaries and also like

(32:45):
being the container for myselfto handle those triggers.
I would blame everyone elsearound me.
That's another classic exampleof victimization, like I'm a
victim because somebody asks mesomething or someone gives me
unsolicited advice.
No, what can I do If it's likeabsolute crap, because maybe I
just experienced a loss and theytold me you know they're in a

(33:08):
better place, you can saywhatever you want to someone who
says that to you, but like it'smy job to say something at that
point, not walk away and thenstart pulling in every ounce of
negativity that I possibly canto give me the strength to never
talk to them again, cause thatwas what I was really
classically known for was justyou out, we're not going to have
a conversation.

(33:28):
Well, because if I had ever hada conversation with someone
about feelings and they didn'trespond well, that was it too.
No, I'll just never share again.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
And now I have so much moregrace because, first of all, do
you think that I handled anybodytelling me that I hurt their
feelings?
Very well, handled it, justlike the other people did.

(33:48):
So it's like a full circlemoment where I'm like okay, it's
my job, it's my job to tellthem I don't want them to say it
, or just be chill or whatever.
Just like when someone elsecomes to me and they say
something to me, I can say tothem immediately yo, I'm going
to do my very best to receivethis in the way that really

(34:09):
honors you.
But I'm also human and so justI'm going to ask you to give me
some grace if I don't respond tothis perfectly and giving
myself the option to be messyand to just figure this human
stuff out Anytime it happens.
I can give that to others nowand so, whereas before if
somebody didn't handle meexpressing a feeling to them

(34:32):
very well and I'd cut them off,now I'm like, okay, I'm going to
give you a minute to just likecome back down and understand.
I'm not attacking you,especially now.
The way I communicate feelingsreally is like this is what's
coming up in me that otherperson doesn't have any
responsibility in this.
I'm talking about the normaleveryday stuff.
I'm not talking about, you know, the outlandish, abusive stuff.

(34:52):
I'm talking about the normaleveryday stuff.
I'm not talking about, you know, the outlandish, abusive stuff.
I'm talking about how I walkedaround feeling betrayed at all
times and put thatresponsibility on other people
Like betrayed me.
And now I understand like no, Ijust felt betrayed.

Kertia (35:03):
Yeah, oh yeah, the growth huh.

Malisa (35:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Kertia (35:22):
When your paradigm just completely shifts like that,
it's so much more peacefulbecause you're not taking every
single thing personally.
You know, when we were talkingabout astrology in the medium
and um soul contracts earlier,what do you think was a part of
that soul contract?
Like?
Why, what do you think you wentthrough all of that, why were

(35:45):
you here to learn like, and whatare you supposed to do with
that from your perspective now?

Malisa (35:50):
Well, I kind of think we all have the same mission here.
On an individual level, I thinkthat we're supposed to get to a
place where we're so anchoredinto the humanness but we also
are in touch with our highestselves and we are full of love

(36:12):
and compassion for ourselves andwe understand it's perfectly
okay to be imperfect and just tofully embrace who we are,
because until we get to thatpoint, we can't make a
difference on the collectivelevel.
And I think that on thecollective level, and I think

(36:35):
that on the collective level, weare all here to move us forward
, to be more loving, to be morecompassionate, to be more
understanding, to be able to seethe humanity in everyone and
also to understand we are allone.
We are all one of the samething.
All one, we are all one of thesame thing.

(36:57):
And when I started to see theconnection between me and
everyone else and how maybe youhave the little T trauma but I
have the big T trauma, but wehave the same messed up thinking
and the same messed up behavior, that's not a coincidence.
And I'm really passionate,actually, about talking to
people who had what they wouldcall every like a normal mundane

(37:18):
childhood.
And yet you're just as messedup as me at the end of the day.
Why is that?
And I figured it out it'sbecause nobody knew how to walk
us through emotionaldevelopmental milestones.
So we all felt neglected everyounce of our childhood, whether
that was something that we couldidentify or not.
Nobody knew how to sit with usin the most minor of discomforts

(37:40):
, and when I started to see howI had repeated that pattern with
my children, like it wasalarming.
And beautiful too, though,because the more I understand
how I've messed up, the more Ican understand why my parents
messed up, and I think that'sthe point.
I think we're all supposed toget to this place where we just

(38:01):
understand humans are humans.
I mean, about the only ofpeople that I can't find an
ounce of like love for really ispedophiles, but you know
otherwise.
I'm just.
I can, like you, get me in aheated conversation about stuff
like, yeah, I'm gonna get pissedand I'm gonna.
You know, like talking politicsis rough right now.

(38:22):
So, yes, I can.
I can react from a place ofpassion that isn't always subtle
, but like when I sit, you thatyou like, but when I sit with
myself and I say, but thatperson.
I know why they make thatdecision.

(38:42):
I know I know why they thinkthat and I can understand that.
Am I going to necessarily hangout with them or share bread
with them?
Not really, not really, butlike I don't have to hate them
either.
I think that's to what everybodywas always trying to get us to
understand about forgiveness youcan forgive, you can't forget.

(39:03):
Whatever it is.
That's your own personalmission.
But at the same time, like man,my life is so much more full of
peace, not carrying around allof this anger.
And like I did that for me, notnot for anyone else.
I wanted to release that.
Like literally just years ofpressure was off of me when I
could lay that down about mygrandma.
Like I can understand it's justabout holding two perspectives.

(39:25):
Like, yeah, I have every rightto feel whatever I want and and
I did allow myself to hold ontothe anger as long as I wanted to
I didn't pressure myself to letit go.
Resistance keeps us stuck, so Ijust go with what I surrender
to whatever I'm in right then,and then I was able to let it go
and the hurt is gone, the heavyis gone.
I just understand.

(39:47):
Yeah, she did a lot of reallydumb stuff that hurt me really
bad and she was a human havingher own experience and she was a
very unhappy person and as aperson who has been very unhappy
, I can get that I didn't havethe capacity to show up for
anyone.

Kertia (40:03):
Yeah, yeah, exactly that , exactly that.
So many gems, melissa.
So many gems.
Yes, I love it.
I love it.

Malisa (40:13):
Tell me more about your podcast, okay, emotionally
unavailable, like tell me yeah,yeah, well, okay, so in the very
beginning, because I am funny,like I'll say that, but you are.
Thank you I wanted a mix oflike funny and whatever.
Mostly I was scared to show upreally fully, authentically,

(40:33):
right.
So at first it was going to becouples.
Like I would have couples onand I would interview them and
I'd be like making fun of theiranswers, like cause it was, I
don't know, it was justdifferent stuff.
Those early episodes were.
They were, they're fun.
But also I was struggling toget guests.
I don't know how anybody startsa podcast and doesn't like do
that, but I was struggling.

(40:55):
I'm like begging people to beon my show, right yeah, and it
was mostly just teaching peopleabout emotional availability
through a funny way.
Then, as I kind of like wasdeveloping emotionally,
spiritually, like when I hadJenny on, like I was very raw
and she was helping me throughreal stuff, like that is on my

(41:16):
show, me having these awakeningsand like in real time I'm
learning where I've really hurtmyself for a long time.
And so then I craved that typeof connection and I didn't talk
about astrology or spiritualityat first, because I'm in
Oklahoma and I knew like it waspeople I knew that were my

(41:38):
listener base at first and I wasafraid of losing listeners.
And then I just quit caring andwas like okay, but you know,
you got to be you or your peoplecan't find you.
So I kind of slowly startedtalking about it.
Now, you know I'll have I havepeople on that believe things
that weren't necessarily thingsI believed in.
It can feel very outlandish topeople who aren't really in the

(41:59):
spiritual world and that worriedme a little bit.
But it's also like hey, ifyou're my listener, you are open
, you don't have to believeeverything, like sometimes I'll,
cause I do.
It's like a separate introbefore the release and so I'll
be like listen, maybe we soundcrazy and that's fine, we're not
, but just listen, just listento the episode, tell me what you

(42:20):
think, but it's a lot of.
I try to just connect withpeople about who they are, like
cause, of course you know peoplewant to promote themselves.
So, like you know, coaches willcome on and whatever, and I'm
like that's fine, we'll promoteyour work, but we're going to
have a heart to heart.
So that's the way I do it,because I love connecting with
people.
I found that it gives me so muchenergy to have these types of

(42:44):
conversations.
Literally I love going on otherpeople's shows to do it.
I love having people on and wejust talk about what we've been
through and how we got to thisplace and what.
What did you learn?
Oh wow, I haven't heard of that.
You know, like I learned abouthuman design from my show.
That's been really instrumental.
Like there's so many peoplethat have come on and taught me
the coolest stuff.

(43:05):
Like it's and you know,sometimes they'll give you free
readings, like there's all kindsof.
If someone offers a free serviceafter they've been on my show,
I'm like yeah, I'll do that andit's called I had a coach on, a
mindset coach.
She's so much more than that.
I don't even know if that'swhat she actually names herself,
but she offered a free coachingsession for me.

(43:25):
Having her on.
I was like, okay, yeah, thatwas my first time ever doing
anything like that.
She taught me how to get intoenergy that I want to, because I
was nervous about an event thatI was going to go to.
And she taught me that I wasbeing in my masculine energy,
like trying to Melissa, go do itbut doing something that made
me very anxious Because I wasthinking I need to go into the

(43:46):
event.
Extroverted.
I'm really not extroverted likethat.
I am, if we can have these kindof conversations, but most
people don't want to be like, hi, I'm so-and-so, and then me
just, you know well, tell meabout your life story.
That's not how it goes.
So in crowded rooms I'll getpretty anxious, and so she
really helped me understand likeyou can go sit at a table and
wait until something naturallyhappens, like you don't have to

(44:08):
go force anything, and that'swhen I really learned how to
like get into my feminine.
My show has changed me becauseI get to meet all of these
really cool people who teach meso much.
So I still feel like it reallycenters around my journey, but
also I get to make all thesebeautiful connections.

Kertia (44:28):
That's beautiful.
I resonate with everything thatyou've been saying because even
developing this podcast, it hasbeen a personal development
journey and spiritual journey ofmine as well.
Before this podcast wasdeveloped, I was at rock bottom
and it was me doing the work andslowly crawling my way out of

(44:48):
that how this podcast came intobeing and, yeah, my idea
initially when I started it iscompletely different from what
it is right now and, speaking toall the people that I've met on
the podcast has taught me somuch about myself, about my own
process, about my journey.
I've had readings on thepodcast too.

Malisa (45:10):
Yeah, it is so great.

Kertia (45:12):
Yeah.
So it's crazy how a world, adifferent world of things, can
open up for you when you stayopen and when you actually
actively begin doing the workand just committed to just being
open-hearted and open-mindedabout whatever it is that might

(45:36):
be presented to you.
Right?
Because instead of being juststuck in this fear-based mindset
, you know and that's why Inamed the show the Author's Side
of Fear, because I recognizehow much I have been operating
from that state being the peoplepleaser, not having badges,
because, you know, all of thiscame out of plethora of

(45:58):
childhood trauma.
Um, yeah, and there are timeswhen, like, I didn't know how to
deal with my own emotions, likeI've always written as a kid
and that's how I kind of learnedto deal with some of my inner
thoughts and feelings.
But even after a while ofgrowing up into early adulthood,

(46:21):
in my teens, I completelystopped writing because I felt
like even that became hard forme, because I wanted to detach
so much from what I was feeling,especially when I felt like
someone did me so wrong.
And I felt like, if I begin tothink about how I feel, or if I

(46:41):
begin to, or if I stayed in thisfeeling of sadness or
unhappiness or feelingheartbroken, then I'm giving
them power over me, or somethinglike that.
And yeah, and.

Malisa (46:57):
I didn't.
I can relate to that for sure.

Kertia (46:59):
Yeah, and I stopped writing for a while because of
that and I didn't realize howdistorted that was, because, it
is true, being in that state andbeing able to express that then
you could heal from it.
And I thought that if Icontinue to express how I felt
or continue to allow myself tofeel those things, then I will

(47:21):
be giving them more power.
But truly, it isn't allowingyourself to go through all of
that and express it and cry andscream and whatever you know
that allows you to actually takeyour power back right.
Take your power back in a waywhereby you you express it,
you're in that state and thenyou can release it, so that you

(47:43):
can release it after, like it nolonger has a hold on you.
And, yeah, I was in that stateof like wanting to detach from
my emotions, of like wanting todetach from my emotions.

Malisa (47:54):
But that's what we all do we avoid, we avoid, avoid,
avoid.
In fact, I got to a place whereI got a little tired of all the
like precious ways that peopletalk about dismissive, avoidant
versus fearful, avoidant versusanxious attachment on TikTok.
I'm addicted to TikTok, I'm notgoing to play about it, but
because we're all avoidant, likemaybe a boy or a girl if that's

(48:18):
what you're into, but likemaybe the person that you're
trying to get with can triggeryour anxious occasionally.
But overall we're all runningfrom feelings and you, talking
about being able to release it,reminded me that like I used to
get pissed when people would belike you just feel it and
release it, because what I wasdoing was thinking about it,

(48:41):
spinning up here, up here, overand over and over.
I didn't know how to feelanything.
I could not experience afeeling, literally, I'm driving
down the road and I'm liketraditional grounding didn't
work that well for me, like the5, 4, 3, 2, 1.
Because I like traditionalgrounding didn't work that well
for me, like the five, four,three, two, one.
Because I listen, think aboutme, I can overthink.
So like I'd be in one waytrying to find the five things
and then over here like, still,you know, making myself

(49:03):
miserable.
So I'm driving down the roadand I'm like, oh, melissa, your
neck, shoulders and back arehurting really bad.
That's supposed to be your cluethat you're overthinking about
something.
And I was like, okay, get out ofmy head into my heart.
First of all, what was Ithinking about?
Okay, okay, okay.
So if I were to label thatcause, I just use those basic
attachment wounds as my feelinglabels, cause I feel like
everything fits in one or moreof those Cause like, if you

(49:26):
Google feelings, you're going toget so many adjectives and that
is a waste of my time.
I don't need to sit and is itdisappointment or frustration?
So I was like, okay, what?
What were you thinking about?
And I'm like, okay, you werefeeling rejected.
Feel the rejection.
Get out of your head and feelthe rejection.
This was the very first time Iever experienced a feeling in my
whole effing life.

(49:47):
I was like, okay, feel.
And I I felt myself likeleaving my brain and entering my
body for the first time in myentire life and it was very
moving.
I was like crying because itwas new and I understood then,
like, what people mean when theysay coming home to yourself.
It was the first time I camehome and so I was like, okay,

(50:07):
rejection.
Then it's over in 90 seconds orless, and I've been driving
myself crazy in my brain foryears, not being able to, like,
let anything go, ever Cause Icould, I could.
You know, I was one of thosepeople that was fighting with
people, like every time I'mtaking a shower, like, and then
another thing you know cause?
I'm not actually going to sayit to your face, that would be
weird.

(50:27):
I'm going to come over here andI'm going to overthink it and
I'm going to talk bad about youbehind your back and like ad
nauseum, like I couldn't letstuff go ever, because I
couldn't, it wouldn't leave mybrain.
So, like understanding how to.
That's what.
When I work with people, myfirst step in the framework is
like quiet the noise Cause yougot to learn how to control this
.
It's a very powerful musclethat doesn't do you a lot of
good.
Like, unless you're trying toactively solve a problem, get

(50:52):
out of your brain because it isonly there to keep you alive.
It's not there to help you inany other way.
That's a great function for abrain.

Kertia (50:59):
I'm thankful that it's keeping me alive, but, like
that's not where experiencesthat I've had with others and
you know, even get into thatpoint where you are recognizing
that, where their reactions arecoming from, recognizing what

(51:29):
they're mirroring for you,recognizing like the lesson in
the relationship, or whatever itwas, that you have with the
person.
At first it's kind of like well, shit, right, but when you look
deeper into things.
But when you look deeper intothings, you recognize the

(51:49):
different layers of yourselfthat were not tended to for such
a long time.
And even when you were justtalking about how, when you were
developing your podcast and youwere expressing your pain but
you weren't expressing your painopenly, you were using like a

(52:12):
narrative of humor right Toexpress that Like I can lose
count easily of how many peoplearound me that I know do that
Situations that seriously harmthem and you know they turn it
into a huge comedic.

Malisa (52:32):
Yeah, me and my brothers had very dark humor.
We made some reallyinappropriate jokes about our
mother, but like I mean actuallyboth of our parents, we just
that's just what we did.
I just wish well, I can't evenwish for this, but I remember
feeling hurt that people didn'tsee how bad I was doing because
of those things.

(52:52):
Something I talked about a lotfor a little while in this
journey was when I foundsoftness, because I was so angry
that everyone had told me mywhole life you are so strong,
you're so brave, you're soresilient.
And it's not that those thingsdidn't feel true, but I was
tired of hearing it.
I wanted them to help me.
Like I was, like I don't wantto be strong anymore.

(53:14):
I want someone to hold me, Iwant to be nurtured, I just want
to be a girl.
Like just love me please Like,just let me live.

Kertia (53:22):
Like somebody help me here.
Yes.

Malisa (53:25):
Yes, I mean not that I had ever asked anyone for
anything like that, but I didn'tidentify it before.
It wasn't until I startedgetting very triggered by the
you're so strong that I was like, okay, then what do you want?
What do you want?
Because that's not it.
Those words did mean a lot tome when I was still motivated by
spite, Like yeah, you're right,I am strong.

(53:48):
But I was like no man, I needtender, Like I need to be tender
with myself.
I need somebody to hold mesoftly, Like understand, I'm
going through it right now and Idon't even know which way to go
most of the time, and so I needsomeone to hold me.
Me.
And it felt good to finally getto a place where, like

(54:09):
literally just visualizingsomebody holding me felt so safe
, because I think for so manyyears the thought of that felt
very unsafe.
Giving anybody else any amountof control to be able to comfort
me even was unsafe.

Kertia (54:25):
And.

Malisa (54:26):
I had to create the safety in my body before I could
allow anyone else to be aroundme and help me.

Kertia (54:35):
What a journey, Melissa.
It really has been.
Oh, my goodness, I could relateto so many things that you're
saying, and I think that's whythat's why it's so important us
being able to do what we do, andlike it's hard, like people

(54:58):
tell me like it's great and, wow, like you're doing such a great
thing.
But I always say this that ithas not been easy for me to show
up and speak on a podcast andexpress my opinions and tell
people how I felt about certainthings and even mention some
things that I've been through.
It's not easy For me.

(55:23):
It has been a journey ofuncovering many layers of shame,
many layers of being in a stateof not loving myself for so
long, without even recognizingthat I wasn't loving myself,
because I was completely unawareof that.
And even when the wholeself-love movement started to be

(55:46):
a thing and love movementstarted to be a thing and
whatever, the whole idea ofself-love can be so skewed and
like caught up into things thatare so external.
Yes, so there's that trivial,yeah and trivial, and so the
idea of self-love, I think, canbe so distorted.

(56:06):
So it's all about living inyour heart, as you said, and
operating from there.
But if you can't operate, ifyou can't live here and operate
from here, then you'recompletely detached from that.
So I didn't realize that all ofthese things that occurred, you
know, because I was that personthat thought, like I'm a good

(56:29):
girl, why does bad things happento me?
Why am I surrounded by peoplewho take advantage or break my
heart or make me feel bad aboutmyself?
Why do I keep experiencingthese these things?
And I just never understood it.

(56:51):
You know, I never understood itand I was just like it's just
not fair, it's not right, likewhy is life like this?
You know, and I was also thatperson like I didn't, I didn't
get to the stage of planning andexit, but I've went through a
stage many times, even thatwhole dark, like that darkness

(57:15):
that I went through before thispodcast came into fruition or
conceptualization, I should saywhereby I had experienced
suicidal ideation, whereby I hadexperienced suicidal ideation.
But I think what has alwayskept me so grounded are my kids,
like for me.

(57:40):
I was just like, yeah, ofcourse I have trauma.
I know that I projected a lotof my own crap onto her right.
Because I was a young mom but Ialways had this idea like, no, I
need to be here, because theyneed me and because of what I
was surrounded by, I felt like,well, I might not be perfect,

(58:01):
but I really truly believe that,well, I'm their best chance to
guide them here.
So I need to be grounded.
So figure your shit out.
Figure your shit out because,yeah, I'm just like nobody is
going to mess with my kids.

Malisa (58:21):
See, I actually was the exact opposite, in that I so
resonated with you saying thelayers of shame, because that
was really the crux of my issuetoo.
But because of my reactivityand the way I was like not
wanting anything to do with mykids, and because I was just so,
my God, I was just trappedinside a very ugly brain so I

(58:42):
didn't have room for anythingand I was just being so hateful
and because they needed me and Ididn't have it, to give you
know.
So I actually got to the placeof making a plan because I felt
they were better off without me,like it finally reached that
point where because they werethe reason that I was staying
for so long too Not that I had aplan ever before the time that

(59:04):
I made a plan but I hadstruggled off and on with
ideation my whole life.
So yeah.
But, like the kids made it easyto be, like you can't do that
Bianche, you know.
And so I didn't.
But this time it was like I,they're like, they're way better
off without me.
Cause there were times in thepast that I would just tell
myself like I messed up mom'sbetter than no mom.
I messed up mom's better thanno mom, but this time it was

(59:26):
like no like.
At this point the risk isoutweighing the reward, or
whatever like I felt like I wasthat bad and all because I
wasn't perfect, like that'sreally why I wanted to die,
because I couldn't handle thefact that I wasn't doing
everything perfectly.
And I guess I really believedsomebody was.
Like there was somebody on thisearth that was doing it a

(59:49):
thousand times better than me.
And now I'm like baby, likeyeah, you messed up, but you
really wasn't that bad first ofall.
Like I mean, you know, like youwouldn't know yourself to the
cross, that's fine.
But like you can go compareyourself to the neighbor even,
and you're doing better thanthey are with your baby.
So, whatever, I don't want tomake those comparisons, but at
the time it was like you wantedto die because you couldn't do

(01:00:11):
things perfectly.
What?
And, like I said, I thinkthat's that part of self-love
that is missing when people arechasing that journey.
It's not just about yoga andjournaling in the woods, it's
about full stop acceptance ofwho you are.
And I've had this realizationthat we really think that hating

(01:00:36):
ourselves is the level ofaccountability needed when we
make mistakes.

Kertia (01:00:41):
And.

Malisa (01:00:42):
I really had to unravel that and think why do I believe
that?
And because that's the way Iwas programmed to believe, like
my grandma, you know thelecturing, the all the things
like if you mess up you gotta betold that you are irredeemable
for the rest of your life overthis little tiny mistake.
But I believed that and so thenI just realized, like honey,

(01:01:05):
you're, you're really, you'rereally asking a lot of your
humanness.
And I think when I got to thatplace I was able to just be like
okay, I can let all of thatperfectionism go.
I still find sneaky ways thatit pops up in my life, but
because I'm so much better I'mnot going to say perfect,
obviously, but I'm so muchbetter at stopping in the moment

(01:01:26):
and be like what the hell isthis?
What is going on here?
Why am I upset?
Much better at stopping in themoment and be like what the hell
is this?
What is going on here?
Why am I upset?
Why did this come up?
Oh, perfectionism, okay, great,that's easy.
Bye-bye perfectionism.
But I think that people thinkthat if you're willing to have
unconditional love and regardfor yourself, that you'll just
give yourself a free pass to bewhatever.

(01:01:46):
And that's how I know that theydon't know love.
Because when you fill yourselfup with love, you can't go be
mean to other people just on thereg.
You go and you give that love,you share the love.
They have their love and youhave your love and we're all
just sharing it.
I'm not on some mission to goget away with murder.

(01:02:08):
Obviously, I'm on a path here ofpeace and joy childlike joy,
like, in fact, I've beenstruggling with energy levels
since I've been working fromhome.
So I told my husband this week,like, okay, my next focus is
I'm literally just focusing ongetting a better routine
exercise, things like that toget my energy levels up again,

(01:02:31):
because I know that's what'sneeded.
No more once a week.
Go have fun every day.
Play sometime like play, play,play.
And it's slow.
It's a slow process, but youknow I'm building the foundation
right now, so that's what I'mgoing to do.
But that's love.
That's the love we're talkingabout.
It's not.
It is also some of thefrou-frou stuff that you see on
Instagram and you should dothose things.

(01:02:52):
But mostly it's just aboutunderstanding that if I am full
of this love for myself, how canI go wrong?
Because A we're supposed tomake the mistakes.
That's what we're here for isto figure out how to overcome
that stuff.
And B it's such a betterexistence.

Kertia (01:03:08):
Yes, yes, all of that, melissa.
This is such a fun conversation.
Thank you so much for sharing.

Malisa (01:03:16):
I just want you to know that, like when I was reading
your profile and even when I gotyou know how, like the Calendly
reminders or whatever I felt soconnected to you.
So I'm not surprised that it'sbeen such a beautiful
conversation, but it definitelyhas.

Kertia (01:03:31):
Yes, and I'm definitely.
I resonate with everythingyou've been saying, girl.
I've been through it, I get it.
Let me tell you.

Malisa (01:03:41):
Life is hard, man, it is .

Kertia (01:03:43):
Yeah, yeah, and it's like, just like how you said,
like the how, however yourtrauma looks, how we internalize
it might be different, but theimpact, you know it's there.
You know, like we bothexperience suicidal ideation,
but you can see the internalprocesses of why that was there,

(01:04:05):
how that was there and how welike, how we perceive that.
You had a completely differentreason for me, like, for me, I
was just like no, I have to behere because of A, and you were
just like, at this point they'rebetter off.
You know what I mean.
But it's the fact that we're atthat point, that turning point,

(01:04:26):
whereby we're just like thisdoesn't make sense anymore.
Why am I even here?
Right, so we all go through thesame things.
It might just look different,the process might be different,
but we all go through it.
So it's just about being kinderto ourselves and being kinder

(01:04:47):
to others.
But know, but first be kind toyourself, because I think that's
that's just where it begins.
As you said, once you'reoperating from your heart, once
you're truly in touch with thatlove you know that pure love you
can't go wrong.
You can't have an inclinationto want to hurt someone else.

Malisa (01:05:10):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
It's a beautiful driving force,for sure.

Kertia (01:05:14):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Is there anything else you'dlike to share before we head out
?
You can tell us where we canfind anything that you're
working on, where we can contactyou and anything else you'd
like to tell us.

Malisa (01:05:28):
Listen, kersha, I'm still trying to figure my life
out.
Okay, once I get really solidon what I'm doing, I pivot again
, so you can feel free to go tomy website,
empoweredwithpelissahepnerorg ifyou want to.
There are some good littleworkbooks on there.
There's a couple of likeworkshops, things like that that
I have linked, but otherwise Idon't know what I'm doing with

(01:05:51):
my life right now other than mypodcast.
But I would love if peoplelistened and I'm very active on
Instagram at Melissa Heppner andyou know making friends and you
know building community and allthat.
So I try to stay connected withfolk, love it.

Kertia (01:06:06):
Yeah, guys, thank you so much for listening, listening,
and, if you're enjoying thispodcast, head over to youtube
and look us up and hit thatsubscribe button.
Your support truly does a lotfor our visibility, and we just
want to continue putting outmeaningful work, because the

(01:06:27):
world needs a lot of love rightnow.
So we decided to beginreleasing the videos to these
recordings, and I'd love to seeyou all in the comments section.
You can also find Melissa'scontact details in the show
notes of this episode, and feelfree to send us a text and tell

(01:06:50):
us what you think.
All right, then, until nexttime, and remember, let your
light shine and be your guide.

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Learning Through Our Emotions | with Malisa Hepner

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Learning Through Our Emotions | with Malisa Hepner