May 31, 2024 • 46 mins
Key Takeaways:
- The notable physical differences between the brains of neurotypical and neurodivergent people.
- Being aware of the rights and laws that protect or support neurodivergent persons and people with disabilities.
- The importance of conversations around sex-ed, dating, consent and healthy boundaries with neurodivergent people.
Dr. Matthew Zakreski, a clinical psychologist specializing in neurodivergence, illuminates the unique challenges and misperceptions encountered in a world tailored for neurotypical norms. Ever wondered how sensory-friendly environments could transform public spaces like airports and stadiums? We touch on initiatives such as the Toronto Raptors' new sensory-friendly space and the vital role these accommodations play in fostering inclusivity.
This episode also delves into the emotional complexities parents face while raising children with unique sensory systems. Dr. Zakreski emphasizes personal growth and the importance of seizing opportunities, as the best time to do anything, is right now.
Highlighting the dangers of not setting boundaries, we discuss the importance of creating alternative narratives in therapy to combat negative thought patterns and promote self-worth. Listen in on Dr. Matt’s remarkable contributions to the field and learn how to stay connected with his ongoing work through the provided links in our show notes. Whether you’re neurodivergent, a parent, or simply passionate about fostering inclusivity, this episode offers invaluable insights and practical advice.
Check out Dr. Matt and his work ⬇️
- The notable physical differences between the brains of neurotypical and neurodivergent people.
- Being aware of the rights and laws that protect or support neurodivergent persons and people with disabilities.
- The importance of conversations around sex-ed, dating, consent and healthy boundaries with neurodivergent people.
Dr. Matthew Zakreski, a clinical psychologist specializing in neurodivergence, illuminates the unique challenges and misperceptions encountered in a world tailored for neurotypical norms. Ever wondered how sensory-friendly environments could transform public spaces like airports and stadiums? We touch on initiatives such as the Toronto Raptors' new sensory-friendly space and the vital role these accommodations play in fostering inclusivity.
This episode also delves into the emotional complexities parents face while raising children with unique sensory systems. Dr. Zakreski emphasizes personal growth and the importance of seizing opportunities, as the best time to do anything, is right now.
Highlighting the dangers of not setting boundaries, we discuss the importance of creating alternative narratives in therapy to combat negative thought patterns and promote self-worth. Listen in on Dr. Matt’s remarkable contributions to the field and learn how to stay connected with his ongoing work through the provided links in our show notes. Whether you’re neurodivergent, a parent, or simply passionate about fostering inclusivity, this episode offers invaluable insights and practical advice.
Check out Dr. Matt and his work ⬇️
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I recently spoke with clinical psychologist, dr
Matthew Zekreski, who is anexpert in neurodivergence or
people with different brainsThink ADHD, giftedness, dyslexia
, autism, etc.
And he speaks so passionatelyabout how we can meet their
needs socially, professionallyand emotionally, while
(00:23):
highlighting that socialsupports and accommodations for
neurodivergent people can, inmany cases, also benefit
neurotypical people, and that issomething we actually spoke
about on the podcast before,about how having a society that
is more open and accommodatingto people with disabilities and
(00:44):
different brains can actuallybenefit us all.
But on another note, dr Mattspeaks about the anxiety often
experienced by neurodivergentpeople, especially when they
feel like they don't quite fitin, like experiencing imposter
syndrome, questioning their owncapabilities and, in many cases,
(01:04):
maybe expecting and acceptingless than they deserve due to
feelings of not being enough.
So something like I guess Ibetter take whatever I can get
type of mindset.
But, as Dr Matt points out, twoopposing things can be true at
(01:25):
once.
So while you may question yourcompetence at something, it
doesn't mean that you arefactually incompetent, and
recognizing that can help withthe stories we create and tell
ourselves about ourselves, so wecan embrace and hold space for
the anxiety we experience andstill move forward, knowing that
(01:49):
we are enough, knowing that youare competent.
(02:12):
All right, let's so good to haveyou here.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
It's great to be here .
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Okay, so as a clinical psychologist who you
serve the neurodivergentpopulation, right?
Yeah, how does you know?
I guess the question that Iwant to ask is are there any
specific fears that you finddealing with people who are
(02:39):
gifted or who have differentbrains?
Do you observe any specificfears that comes up, especially
as it relates to the parents ofchildren who are neurodivergent?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Oh man, I mean fear, I think is one of the fear is
almost like my colleague right,like it shows up to work with me
every day, because fear comesfrom a sense of unknown.
And the world is built forneurotypical people like the way
schools and dating and jobs andcollege are built.
(03:16):
They're built for the bigmiddle of people whose brains
are well within normal limits.
When you have a kid who is notlike that, there is an obvious
fear because, well, what doesthe world look like for a kid
with this brain?
If you are someone who's wildlybrilliant but has trouble being
(03:43):
around other people, well,goodness me.
I mean we've built sort of asocial world.
How does one interact with that?
So there's a lot of fear I hearfrom parents.
You know my kid's autistic.
Are they ever going to be ableto live alone?
My kid's gifted you know whathappens if they can't find a job
?
That sets their world on fire.
(04:04):
My daughter's ADHD why can'tshe ever find her shoes?
Will she ever find her shoes,you know.
So there is this fear becauseit's we get so caught up in what
is happening to us right now welose the ability to see the
horizon and the potential growthor change that comes, that will
(04:26):
be on that end of the journey.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Wow, I can only imagine what that's like because
you know, for example, mydaughter.
She's left handed right.
We don't find a lot of lefthanded things for people for
people that use their left hands, that are left-handed.
So I get it.
I totally get it, because youknow you often don't find
(04:56):
left-handed scissors.
I mean they exist, but it'seasier to find scissors for
people who are right-handed, areright-hand, dominant, right.
So I totally get that.
And for me, just you know,having a child who is left
handed and just working around,that you know getting her to use
little tools and little thingswhen she wants to do crafts, and
you know what I mean I can onlyimagine how huge it is on the
(05:19):
other side when you have someonewho is neurodivergent.
They have a completely differentbrain, they see the world
differently, they perceivethings differently and maybe
they're even more sensitive to alot of things.
And the world really hasn'tcaught up to really being able
to facilitate a culture that isdynamic enough to accommodate,
(05:46):
have proper accommodation topeople with different brains,
whether it be in our schools, ininstitutions, in the workplace.
I mean, you see, like certainthings, certain workplaces, they
might have certainaccommodations, but it's not
enough, it's never enough enoughand it doesn't cover the vast
(06:07):
differences and, um, thevariations among people who are
in your neurodivergent.
So I totally get the fearthere's, just like you think
about everything that possiblycould go wrong when you have a
child that doesn't function theway that everyone else's kids do
.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
And it's a point of immense privilege, you know.
I mean you mentioned theleft-handed thing.
I mean, one of my favoriteexamples of privilege is if
you're left-handed and you walkinto a classroom, the first
thing you have to find are whereare the left-handed desks?
And it's not a thing thatright-hand dominant people like
me ever need to think about.
I can say whatever the heck Iwant, right, yeah, do, do, do,
(06:49):
do here, I go right, but yourkiddo has to think about that
and that's a thing that theyhave to think about a million
little moments a day, and itwears you down.
You know what I mean.
If she ever drives a manual car, right, I mean here in the the
(07:10):
you know North America our stickshifters are on the right side,
yeah, right, so, which meansshe's going to be shifting the
car with her non-dominant hand.
Not a thing that, as aright-handed person, I have to
need to think about, I ever needto think about, and you know I
actually often likeleft-handedness, colorblindness,
neurodivergence are are sort ofunder this umbrella of
(07:31):
invisible differences.
Yeah, you can't look at someoneuntil they're left-handed.
You can't look at someone untilthey're colorblind.
Well, it depends on whatthey're wearing, I guess.
Uh, but, but it's those thingsthat.
So when people who, who don'tlook any different, ask for
accommodations, there's thesystem tends to respond to that
(07:53):
in a what why would you needsomething different?
You look able bodied, you looknormal, you look neuro,
neurotypical, and then it's all.
It's analogous to almost like acoming out process and you have
to decide what parts ofyourself you need to reveal.
(08:13):
You feel comfortable to reveal,you feel safe to reveal, and
when I talk about stuff likethis, I usually anchor this it's
like I'm the most privilegedhuman in the world.
I am a straight, cisgender,heterosexual, white male with a
doctorate.
I mean, come on right, it'sjust ain't nobody more
privileged than me, right?
(08:34):
But it's the sort of thing.
I still have areas where Istruggle with, areas where I
don't have privilege, but I talkto you and I think about how
much privilege I have vis-a-visthe person I'm talking to.
It's a great lens to look atall this stuff through, because
we have to meet people wherethey are and we have to believe
(08:56):
them when they tell us aboutstuff that comes from a place
that we don't see.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah, yeah, I love that you mentioned that.
It's that unseen element thatmakes it so challenging and in a
lot of cases can be sodangerous.
For me it can be dangerous, orfor a Black man it can be
dangerous.
You know what I mean.
A neurodivergent Black man thatdoesn't respond the way that
you might expect any other manto respond could get shot
(09:28):
because maybe it's notunderstood that his brain works
a little bit different, so hiscues are different, he responds
to cues differently.
There's that element, right.
But then, even taking race outof that, when you look at just
anyone else, right, there arejust so many accommodations that
are lacking when you go intothe office, when you go into
(09:49):
work, and maybe your boss can'tunderstand why you function a
certain way or why you respond acertain way, and things can
lead to conflict when thecommunication breaks down
because you don't communicate inthe same way that everyone else
does.
So I kind of get it, because Iknow from speaking to people who
(10:14):
has some level ofneurodivergence, there's some
people.
They might not have the samefocus as someone else, right,
not have the same focus assomeone else, right?
Maybe they need certainaccommodations that allows them
to be able to focus and you know, their brains are going a
million miles a second and theyneed some accommodation to help
(10:37):
them to focus on something.
It's not as if they're notcapable of doing it, but they
need an extra accommodation inorder to get that done.
So I know, when it comes touniversities, they have certain
accommodations, but I'm not evensure if that's enough, because,
having gone to universitymyself, it's there, but I don't
(10:59):
know.
I don't know.
So I want to ask you how can webetter support and advocate for
the neurodivergent people inour lives?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Well, I mean, you mentioned university, and that's
a.
It's an interesting place tostart, because for a long time
we've thought aboutneurodivergence in terms of
education, right, I mean becausethat's at least in the United
States, right, that's where weget most of where the mental
health and societal structuresintermix.
(11:36):
So your kid has ADHD, well,okay, well, we have to put some
accommodations in school so thiskid can learn, because it's our
job to teach this kid, right,but it's the same, your ADHD
doesn't magically go away whenyou turn 18, you graduate high
school, right, I mean, now youhave to enter into work, work or
higher education that have lessobligation to meet you where
(11:58):
you are and serve you.
I've had clients ask foraccommodations for adhd or
dyslexia at work and have themtold, like, those things don't
file under the Americans withDisabilities Act, which is not
true.
I mean, they're actually in theletter of the law, but people
say they're not because there'sstill this perception that's
(12:18):
like, well, if you just workedharder, if you just focused,
then you wouldn't have theseproblems.
You know, and that's why Iground so much of what I do in
neuroscience, because it's like,hey, I can point to you on
brain scans how these people'sbrains are literally different,
and I'm not saying that's goingto change every heart and mind,
(12:38):
but when you look at an ADHDbrain on an fMRI and you look at
a neurotypical brain, you cansee the difference.
I mean it's remarkable.
And you know, I mean a GreatDane and Chihuahua are still
dogs.
They're both dogs.
Yeah, nobody would look at themand think that they're the same
thing and need the same stuff,right?
(12:59):
Yeah, so you know, the ADHDbrain is a different kind of dog
and it may need special food,it may need to go on walks more
often, and why would we givethat grace and understanding to
our pets and not give it to ourchildren?
I mean, my good, I'm a dog guy,so this is not an anti-dog rant
(13:21):
.
That's a great way to turn offthe podcast listeners.
Be like, I'm not pro-dog, I amvery pro-dog and cat.
But yeah, it's, you know.
So we need to think aboutaccommodations, because the
brains we have impact our entirelives.
They impact the friends we make, the games we play, the jobs we
(13:45):
get or the jobs we avoid.
They impact the kinds of dateswe go on.
They impact the substances weconsume and the vacations we go
on.
I mean, you know, that's why itbrings me such great joy to see
so many more sensory-friendlyplaces in airports, at stadiums.
You know, the Toronto Raptorsjust debuted their big
(14:06):
sensory-friendly space at theScotiabank Center, I think in
downtown Toronto.
Right, I mean those are thethings we need because, if you
want, if the goal of anytreatment plan is inclusion,
then the spaces those people areentering must be inclusive.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah, you're so right on that.
I'm really glad that youmentioned that sensory aspect,
because I know that we havechildren, that their sensory
system are just builtdifferently.
Yeah, their sensory system arejust built differently, yeah,
right.
And so they don't communicateor show affection, for example,
(14:51):
or maybe things might kind oftrigger them in ways that it
doesn't trigger the rest of us,and I think that is so
challenging.
I can only imagine because, as aparent myself, my little one
she's six years old this yearand she has a lot of big
feelings, a lot of big emotions.
(15:12):
So, on a regular day, I think alot of us struggle so much to
deal with our own crap, our ownfeelings.
There's so much things that wekind of push down.
There's so much of our ownemotional baggage that we have
that we still struggle to dealwith.
A lot of us lack emotionalintelligence, a lot of us are
(15:36):
not great communicators, a lotof us has trauma that has yet to
be acknowledged, much less tobe processed, and when you have
a child or a loved one that hasyet to be acknowledged, much
less to be processed, and whenyou have a child or a loved one
that has a different brain andwho needs different
accommodations, the entireexperience can become so
triggering when you have peoplewho have not dealt with your own
(15:59):
personal issues, so I can seeit being such a huge challenge.
What would be your advice inthis case?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
The advice is twofold .
So just because you are whereyou are doesn't mean you can't
get better.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Right.
I mean, have you ever gone backand listened to your first
podcast you ever recorded?
Speaker 1 (16:25):
No.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Pour yourself a glass of wine and do it because it's
rough.
It's rough.
I recently listened to the veryfirst webinar I ever gave and I
was like oh, oh God, I hatethis, I hate this, I hate this,
oh God, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this.
And it's amazing because ourgrowth is constant, but it's
(16:50):
subtle.
Yeah, and you wake up one dayand you go, whoa, I'm so much
better at this than I was.
But in order to get there, youhave to start.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
And so that's the other side of this.
Is that imagine how much betteryou could do if you gave
yourself permission to be abeginner.
You can only start where youare.
You're like okay, well, listen,once I lose 50 pounds, then I'm
going to go date.
No, I get where that fear comesfrom, but you can start that
(17:24):
right now.
You know, I mean it's.
You know, I tell my clients allthe time it's like don't wait
to be happy.
Right, if there are things youcan do right now to put you on
that journey towards happiness,take that step right now.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You know, the best time to start trying something
was 10 years ago.
The second best time to startis right now.
You know, and I said we alsolike, ah, if only I had started
this.
And yeah, but you can start itright now.
I mean, I travel all the timefor work.
I'm often going places to givetalks and speaking conferences
and for a long time I just neversigned up for one of those
(18:02):
hotel points systems, right, andnow I am, and now I have a
million points in a hotel chain,but it's like I would.
I just never signed up for oneof those hotel points systems,
right, and now I am, and now Ihave a million points at a hotel
chain, but it's like I wouldhave so many more points.
Oh, my God, I left so manypoints on the table just because
I was bored or stubborn or lazyor whatever word we want to use
.
And and every time I look at mypoint total, there's that
(18:22):
little voice in the back of myhead.
That's like you could have more.
Yes, but I also have a lot.
Right, I started when I startedand I can't change when I
started, but I can move forward,trying to maximize that growth,
and I think there's.
I think that's a a lesson thatall of us can benefit from,
(18:44):
because it's we're so hard onourselves when it comes to
growth and change.
Well it's, I'm not good attalking to other people and I'll
never be good at talking toother people, so I'll just
choose to be miserable.
You're, you are as good at itas you are right now.
If you engage with systems andservices and helpers to get
better at it, I'll, I'll bet you, I'll bet you any amount of
(19:06):
money that you'll be better atit in a year.
But you've got to be willing tostart and willing to keep going
, and that's where it gets hard.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
It takes a level ofself-awareness just that level
of self-awareness Because I knowthere are a lot of parents that
they tried their best.
Having kids that areneurodivergent, gifted, having
different brains process is soscary and, um, you're not all
(19:38):
fixed and healed and you knowwhen these things fall on your
lap, you know you're just tryingyour best, you're really just
trying your best, you're reallyjust trying your best and you're
trying to show up as best asyou can.
So I can only imagine thechallenge, coupled with all the
fears that you touched onearlier, about how your kids can
(20:02):
function as they grow up.
You know, in school and in allthese different spaces, that
they will have to kind of adjustto spaces that most of them
really have not given any realthought to, how they can really
serve the rest of the communitythat are not like them.
(20:23):
So, yeah, it's a really toughcookie but, as you said, it's
never too late to start.
It's.
You know it is the best chancethat you can get to start to
even work on your stuff and workon yourself.
I say all the time.
You know, being a mom of girls,I have become a much better
(20:43):
person.
You know, being a mom has mademe so much better.
It has.
My kids have kind of mirroredso many things that I did not
see in myself, kind of pulledout a lot of things that I
didn't know were there, and fromthat I used that to build on
that and just becoming aware ofall those different qualities
(21:09):
about myself that I can improveon and you know and also notice
the things that are reallybeautiful about me, right.
So it's such a huge learningcurve for parents, for families
and for the people who are alsoexperiencing it themselves.
So definitely love that yousaid that it's never too late.
(21:33):
Just start right now.
What advice would you give?
We're talking about theworkspace and talking about
bosses not wanting toaccommodate.
You know saying like, yeah, itdoesn't cover this, it doesn't
cover that, that refusal ofaccommodation or maybe dismissal
, as in like they really don'tcare.
(21:54):
And then there's that personalthing whereby you experience
imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Do I really belong?
Speaker 1 (22:01):
here, Is this my space.
Like, can I come into thisspace and get along with these
people and how am I going tocommute to these people
effectively when my brain right?
This is a thing I talk about alot.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
So imposter syndrome stems from a place where you
have been made, eitherimplicitly or explicitly, to
feel different than yoursurroundings, right?
So if you have ADHD and younotice everybody else knows
where their jacket is and youhave no idea where your jacket
is, then that's a thing thatmakes you feel a little bit
different.
And that difference can sort ofgrow and metastasize into
(22:55):
something like imposter syndrome.
Because if I'm so differentthen perhaps I don't belong here
, perhaps I'm just foolingeverybody.
I had a travel sales job rightafter college and, like
everybody else there had gottena business degree or like
majored in marketing or sales,and I'm like I was a psychology
major, I worked at a lab and Igot burned out from working in a
(23:19):
lab.
So I just took the first joband it's like oh, it's got a bar
in the office and I get totravel internationally.
That sounds pretty great.
Shout out to EF Tours Firstreal job I ever had.
And in that case my awareness ofmy difference made me work
harder because I was like Idon't have the skills these
other people have.
I got to work my butt off andit was a lot of work and it was
(23:42):
a lot of struggle, but thatcould have just as easily
drowned me.
It could have been an anchoraround my neck.
I had a great manager who sawme and helped me develop as a
person, right.
And so when I came into workwearing, you know, very wrinkled
shirts or like pants that werelike technically work pants but
(24:04):
really shouldn't have been workpants, she pulled me aside.
She's like what are you doing?
You're like you don't look likea professional.
Look at everybody else in thisoffice.
I'm like, right.
And then there was an old Navyin the mall right down the road
and I went to old Navy and I waslike I need to buy pants.
And I bought pants and you know, and it's the sort of thing,
like it's those little thingsyou need.
(24:26):
Awareness only takes you so far.
Support gets you the rest of theway yeah right and, and you
know, support can be adouble-edged sword, because you
have to ask for it and you haveto ask for it for people who are
willing to give it, and thatcan be very tricky, you know,
(24:46):
and the imposter syndrome willtell you.
Well, you know, like if youwere really good at this, you
wouldn't need help, you know, Imean, if you were truly a good
parent, you wouldn't need timeoff from your kids, right?
And it's like you know and I've, like all the parents were
listening to this are goinguh-huh.
So I will say this as a as achild psychologist and as a
(25:11):
parent of two, I need breaksfrom my kids.
There are times my kids driveme up a wall.
That doesn't make me a badparent.
It doesn't make me a fraud as aparent or a partner.
It means that I'm human as aparent or a partner.
It means that I'm human andthere is no greater gift to
(25:32):
ourselves that we can give thanto allow ourselves to be human.
Because the goal of all thiswork we're trying to do right,
all of this work, it isn't to beperfect, it's to be resilient,
it's to be adaptable, it's to,it's to survive and thrive.
I mean, if you try to be theperfect parent, I guarantee you
you'll fail, because the perfectparent doesn't exist and
(25:57):
whatever you're doing that'sworking right now will probably
not work in six months or sixyears.
Right?
People change, so you've got tohave a skill set that changes
and grows along with the needsof your environment, that
changes and grows right.
And this is actually a way inwhich neurodivergent people can
be great employees, becausewe're already outside the box
(26:21):
thinkers.
We're already used to figuringout how to survive on the
margins.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Right.
So we're actually wired to bemore nimble, right, and I think
that's a cool thing.
I mean, if companies can tapinto that, I mean that's a
potential goal of mine.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah, that is so true .
I spoke to someone I have anepisode coming out soon and it
was around the same kind ofthing.
This gentleman, he has adisability, he's blind, and we
spoke about the same thing.
Society views accommodation asan extra thing, like we have to
(27:04):
do so much, we have to spend somuch in order to do this
accommodation.
It's as if it's like, um, likethey're being pressured to do a
lot of people or companies Um,not everyone, of course, but the
energy that has been given,it's like it's too much, it's
going to cost us too much to dothis.
Um, it's going to take too mucheffort and too much, it's going
(27:25):
to cost us too much to do this.
It's going to take too mucheffort and too much time to do
that.
You know how many people evenrequire that kind of
accommodation.
Most of us are normal, right,that's the kind of thinking that
is out there.
But he said this similar to whatyou just said, that people need
to realize companies especiallythat having these
(27:46):
accommodations would actuallyhelp the lives of everyone else
Everyone, because you know hespoke about, for instance,
having sidewalks that are shapeddifferently, having the curve
right, so that you're not peoplewho are blind, are not kind of
tripping over themselves whenthey're crossing the street and
(28:07):
trying to get on the curve.
He said think about moms whohave strollers, who are pushing
their babies.
How much easier that would befor them if the sidewalk was
shaped differently.
So he said society needs toview creating and facilitating
these accommodations.
They need to view it as apositive thing because
(28:28):
ultimately, not only does ithelp people who are disabled or
people with different brains,but it ultimately helps everyone
else.
Everybody benefits from this,because it also makes the lives
of people who are considerednormal easier.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah, everybody wins.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, everybody wins.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
There's a meme that floats around the various
disability boards online whereit's a bunch of kids trying to
get into school and the stairsand the ramp are covered in snow
and the janitor's shoveling thestairs and he's like I'll get
to you in a you second kid in awheelchair.
The kid who else says but ifyou cover, if you uncover the
ramp, we can all go up exactlyright.
I mean there's a.
There's a client I work withwho is you know.
(29:21):
He's very neurodivergent and Iwas able to help get him an
accommodation where he can workfrom home as a default, and if
they need him to come into theoffice, we set it up that he has
to come into the office.
And if that's not, if, if thatis a possibility for your job,
(29:43):
then I truly believe that shouldbe the default.
Everything we know, all thedata we have from the last four
years of people working remotely, is people are happier, they
get just as much work done, theyspend less time in the car,
it's better for the environment.
I mean, it really is just sortof a win-win and it's the sort
(30:07):
of thing I understand.
There are financial reasons,like those giant buildings
downtown are not going to payfor themselves yeah and if you
have a company meeting or an allcall or a, you know you need to
be there to push that productout.
I guess, sure, I get it.
There are times you gotta gotto come into the office.
I don't, I don't need, you know, I don't need them to like,
(30:29):
push that so hard.
I think that the other side ofit is let's have, let's have a
conversation about what theemployee needs to be successful
and where that can take place.
That's an outside the boxthinking.
You think about it.
Basically, for all of humanhistory up into the last five,
(30:52):
10 years, you had a job.
You went to the office.
I used to have a really cooloffice to see therapy clients
and all this exposed brick itwas a very beautiful place and
during COVID I broke my leasebecause I was like I'm going to
be paying thousands of dollarsfor a space I can't use.
And then I realized workingremotely, seeing clients
virtually, is easier for me,it's easier for my clients, it's
(31:15):
financially better.
I mean if my kids have a snowday they can be home.
I mean it's a win-win right.
You know so, you know, I thinkthose right, you know so, you
know I think those, those ideas,the changing dynamics of a
world, are hard for people toadapt to.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
But when we adapt to them, there's a, there are
scenarios where everybodybenefits yeah, a lot of them
actually, so many of them thesimplest one I can think of is
you know that little when you goto the mall and you push a
little thing on the door to letthe door open, it might come
simple, but during COVID itbecame a huge thing.
(31:56):
Yeah Right, because, like, theyeven install the ones where you
kind of wave and the door open.
Because we were kind of afraidof getting the disease,
transmitting the disease.
We weren't yet sure of how thedisease was even transmitted,
and so now we're getting afraidto touch things that other
people had touched.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
And so all of those little things came into play
when COVID happened, right, andwe found a way to make it even
better by creating the sensoryones, where you kind of just
waste the door opens for you, noneed to touch that surface.
So that is the simplest one Ican think of, but it was so huge
during a time when we were incrisis, and it goes to show how
(32:42):
much society can truly benefitfrom creating equitable
accommodations for everyone.
Think about your neighbor,think about the children, think
about people who really have togo through their entire lives
struggling or second guessingthemselves because society makes
(33:03):
them feel different.
And society reiterates to themall the time like, hey, why do
you do something like that?
Like, why do you, why do youwalk like that?
Why do you talk like that?
Why do you think like that?
Why can't you do this right?
Instead, it should be oh, youcan do that, that's cool.
You can think like that.
(33:23):
Tell me more yep, right, but wedon't get that a lot of the
time.
So everything you said, so true?
Um, I'm really enjoying thisconversation.
I want to get into, you know,you mentioned something earlier
that caught my interest, andwhat is it like when you kind of
(33:43):
get on the dating scene, that'slike a whole different can of
worms, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, are you kidding me?
Like it's?
Dating as a neurodivergentperson is a whole thing, and I'm
one of the few people in thespaces I travel in who talks
about dating and sex and sexeducation for neurodivergent
(34:12):
people through that lens,because it's so important.
I mean, remember we said beforeour brains come with us
wherever we are.
Right, you know, I mean forwhatever, for the challenges
that exist in socializing anyway.
They're so much more complexwhen you're talking about dating
(34:33):
, romance, sex, because thenthere's even more nuance.
You know, one of my clients wassaying to me the other day he's
like so, dr Matt, in movies allthe time the female character
will say I don't like you, Idon't want to kiss you, and then
10 seconds later she's kissinghim.
Why, like, didn't she just sayno?
And I'm like how do I evenbegin to unpack that?
(34:56):
Because it's very complicated.
And that's why I actually thinkthat sex education and dating
101 are parts of good socialemotional learning for kids.
Because how do you declare yourneeds?
How do you say to somebody Ilike this, I don't like this,
I'm willing to try this?
How do you say I don't want youto touch me?
(35:18):
How do you say I really, reallywant you to touch me Right,
like how do you have thoseconversations?
And I think it's great thatwe're moving towards a world of
more open and honestconversations about boundaries,
about physical safety, aboutconsent, because consent is a
term that can be analogous tosoccer dating, family get
(35:44):
togethers, sex, being at thegrocery store, right Anytime you
can use language of consent.
It gives us a framework to saywhat we need and what we don't
need.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
And you know so, and I've had kids say like, oh, I
can never establish thoseboundaries because if someone,
if I'm lucky enough thatsomebody, wants to have sex with
me, I'm going to let them dowhatever they want.
And I was, was like that's likenot only a very sad way to say
well, it's potentially dangerous.
You can get into a very badrelationship with that kind of
thought.
But if it comes from a place ofI am, I'm an imposter, I'm
(36:21):
fundamentally unworthy, I'm, Iam too different, then that's
very fertile ground for thosekind of thoughts to grow from.
And we know thoughts lead tofeelings, lead to behaviors.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Right.
So you know, I mean, it reallystarts with a self-study.
It starts with what do I like,what don't I like?
You know, are you somebody whocouldn't go on a date to a fancy
restaurant because you'd be tooanxious?
Being in a fancy restaurant,like how do I use the several
forks?
Right, like you know, okay.
(36:53):
So then what does a good datelook like for you?
Is it a cup of coffee?
Is it ice cream?
Is it walking around a park?
You know, those are all finedates and you can communicate
that to the person you want todate.
And here's what I tell myclients, and I genuinely believe
this If they say absolutely not, then they're not the sort of
person you wanted to date in thefirst place.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Right.
If you think a beer at thecorner pub is a good date and
they want to go to the opera andyou don't like operas, then
they're probably, no matter howpretty they are.
No-transcript.
(37:35):
Those sort of moments remind usthat we're allowed to have our
own deal breakers.
We're allowed to have our ownvalues and enact them in systems
, even if we feel like we mightnot be worthy of that.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yeah, that's so true, and I love that you mentioned
consent.
That is a language that we allneed to include in our parenting
moving forward.
Whether your kids areconsidered neurodivergent or not
, that is something that we allneed to really be attentive with
.
From everything you've justsaid, I can only imagine the
(38:11):
amount of anxiety that comeswith dating, and you previously
mentioned a creative frameworkthat you use not just with
dating but pretty mucheverything else that we've been
speaking about, because theanxiety and fears are always
there.
So how do you use this creativeframework to create those
(38:34):
alternative narratives thatcould help to counteract the
effects of that?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
alternative narratives that could help to
counteract the effects of that.
That's, I think, fundamentallywhat therapy is all about is
creating alternate narratives.
If your brain only tells youone story, right.
For instance, for a long time,my brain told me the story of if
your kids aren't happy, you'renot a good parent.
Not a good story.
(39:00):
It's not true, it's notaccurate, it's not possible,
because the things that make mykids happy are often the things
that I cannot give them, or cangive them only in certain
amounts.
My son would be happy to lay onthe couch and watch Blaze and
the Monster machines all day.
I mean, you, you, you wouldn'tmove.
(39:21):
He'd be a very happy camper,right.
But it's important as a parentfor me to make sure he goes to
school and runs around outsideand and has a healthy lunch and
all those other things.
So you know.
So now I have a narrative in myhead that says sometimes we do
know better and sometimes I haveto like the things I'm going to
(39:44):
say are helpful but might makehim unhappy in the short term.
And that's an okay counternarrative, right?
If there's one thing that's trueabout our brains is that, in
the absence of other information, our brains only tend to tell
us one story, right, and thatstory tends to be catastrophic,
right?
You know, my best friend hasn'ttexted me today.
(40:04):
Oh my God, they hate me.
Oh my God, they're mad at me.
What did I do?
And then you ramp yourself upbecause, remember, thoughts lead
to feelings, lead to behaviors,and by the time your friend
actually texts you, you're likeoh great, yeah, it's like I'm
going to respond to that textmessage, because you twist
yourself up into knots over athing that may have not actually
happened.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
That is so true.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
I mean, we're all human.
I do it too, right.
So it's this sort of thing.
It's like I always tell peopletry not to focus on what if.
Try to focus on what if.
Try to focus on what is right.
What if this thing happens?
Well, it might, but what ishappening to you right now is
more important.
(40:46):
Whatever control we have overthe universe exists a lot more
in the what is than the what ifyeah and and that's the sort of
thing.
like you know, I'm sure thatI've gotten a gazillion you know
a gazillion emails since I'vebeen talking to you while we
were doing this podcast and like, well, what if one of them was
(41:08):
important?
What if one of them was totallytime sensitive?
What?
What is happening right now isI'm on this podcast and that
that's okay, right, the thereality is is the vast majority
of messages we get can wait.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Right, and you know I tell people all the time.
You could distill therapy downto the idea that it's about
holding two different thoughtsin your head at the same time.
I am anxious about being aparent, and I am still a good
parent.
I don't know where the hell I'mgoing to find somebody to date
(41:48):
me, but I am worthy of love,right, you know I don't know if
the kind of job I need exists,but there are resources I can
ask to help me find that job,because if we only tell one
story, then there's no nuance,there's no reflection point,
it's all just gunk, and I don'tlike gunk.
(42:12):
I want there to be moregoodness in the world and I
think that's a pretty powerfulthing.
But that goodness can startwith the stories we tell
ourselves and the gifts we giveourselves of being more flexible
and open to other possibleexplanations.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
I definitely agree with you on that.
Just before we wrap up, I knowthat you use the eclectic
approach to therapy.
I'd like you to talk about thata little bit.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
So, yeah, I mean, my eclectic approach is basically
comes from years of working withkids in different spaces, and a
lot of people describe me asaggressively pragmatic, like if
it works, I'm going to do it, ifit doesn't work, I'm not going
to do it, you know, becausefundamentally, best practices
(43:01):
are only helpful in as much asthey help our kids, right?
So if the you know, if RussellBarkley says this is what works
with kids for ADHD, but itdoesn't work for your kid with
ADHD, well then then we'reprobably not going to do that
Right, or we're going to tweakit in some way to make it work
for your kid.
So my eclectic approach is likepull from cognitive therapy and
(43:23):
acceptance and commitmenttherapy and attachment theory
and processing and gamification.
And I have a lot of tools in mytoolbox, right, and
increasingly I'm bringing thosetools to organizations.
Increasingly I'm bringing thosetools to organizations,
companies, schools that aretrying to get that kind of
impact at a much broader level,right?
(43:44):
So next week I'm going to talkto a big law firm here in the US
, because a lot of their parents, who are very bright and
capable people are.
Also, I'm sorry, a lot of theirlawyers, who are very bright
and capable people are alsostruggling with parenting and
navigating all those pieces ofit.
So we're going to talk abouthow do you hold space for both
(44:05):
of those things and how to giveyourself permission to be less
than perfect at something.
So, if that stuff soundsinteresting to you you know I'm
very Google-able, you know I'mthe only Dr Matt Zuckreski out
there, so that's easy.
Um, the name of our practice isthe neurodiversitycollectivecom
.
Um, it's a mouthful, but onceagain, it's very Googleable.
(44:27):
Um, and a lot of people uh,engage with me on Facebook.
Um, facebookcom slash.
Dr Matt Zuckreski.
Um, you know, it's nerdy humor,some mental health stuff, some
positive affirmations.
I just try to put out a lot ofgood in the world and I find
(44:48):
that 99% of the time it getsreflected back to me.
So I guess I'm on a mission tohelp as many people as I can
understand their brains,understand how to make life a
little easier, and if we do that, then I can sleep well when my
head hits the pillow at night.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
As someone who studies psychology myself, I you
know that that is somethingthat really stood out to me.
I think this is something thatwe all know by now that one shoe
doesn't fit all right.
It's.
We can't do a cookie cutterkind of thing for everyone and
you know, five people with ADHDthe same therapy won't work for
(45:25):
them.
Five people with Asperger's thesame therapy won't work for
them, for each individual.
So definitely love that, I lovewhat you're doing and thank you
so much for sitting with metoday.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Oh my gosh it was.
It was a great pleasure from myside, you know, and you create
just such a wonderful, warmpodcast space, so that's really
awesome.
And you know, if I can evercome back, I would certainly
love to talk to you some more.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Definitely.
I would love that actuallyDefinitely.
Thank you so much, Dr Matt.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Thank you so much for listening.
You can support our work bysharing this podcast with your
friends and family, or you canalso make a one-time donation.
If you'd like to know moreabout Dr Matt and his work, I've
included all his links below inthe show notes.
Until next time.
I recently spoke with clinical psychologist, dr
Matthew Zekreski, who is anexpert in neurodivergence or
people with different brainsThink ADHD, giftedness, dyslexia
, autism, etc.
And he speaks so passionatelyabout how we can meet their
needs socially, professionallyand emotionally, while
(00:23):
highlighting that socialsupports and accommodations for
neurodivergent people can, inmany cases, also benefit
neurotypical people, and that issomething we actually spoke
about on the podcast before,about how having a society that
is more open and accommodatingto people with disabilities and
(00:44):
different brains can actuallybenefit us all.
But on another note, dr Mattspeaks about the anxiety often
experienced by neurodivergentpeople, especially when they
feel like they don't quite fitin, like experiencing imposter
syndrome, questioning their owncapabilities and, in many cases,
(01:04):
maybe expecting and acceptingless than they deserve due to
feelings of not being enough.
So something like I guess Ibetter take whatever I can get
type of mindset.
But, as Dr Matt points out, twoopposing things can be true at
(01:25):
once.
So while you may question yourcompetence at something, it
doesn't mean that you arefactually incompetent, and
recognizing that can help withthe stories we create and tell
ourselves about ourselves, so wecan embrace and hold space for
the anxiety we experience andstill move forward, knowing that
(01:49):
we are enough, knowing that youare competent.
(02:12):
All right, let's so good to haveyou here.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
It's great to be here .
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Okay, so as a clinical psychologist who you
serve the neurodivergentpopulation, right?
Yeah, how does you know?
I guess the question that Iwant to ask is are there any
specific fears that you finddealing with people who are
(02:39):
gifted or who have differentbrains?
Do you observe any specificfears that comes up, especially
as it relates to the parents ofchildren who are neurodivergent?
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Oh man, I mean fear, I think is one of the fear is
almost like my colleague right,like it shows up to work with me
every day, because fear comesfrom a sense of unknown.
And the world is built forneurotypical people like the way
schools and dating and jobs andcollege are built.
(03:16):
They're built for the bigmiddle of people whose brains
are well within normal limits.
When you have a kid who is notlike that, there is an obvious
fear because, well, what doesthe world look like for a kid
with this brain?
If you are someone who's wildlybrilliant but has trouble being
(03:43):
around other people, well,goodness me.
I mean we've built sort of asocial world.
How does one interact with that?
So there's a lot of fear I hearfrom parents.
You know my kid's autistic.
Are they ever going to be ableto live alone?
My kid's gifted you know whathappens if they can't find a job
?
That sets their world on fire.
(04:04):
My daughter's ADHD why can'tshe ever find her shoes?
Will she ever find her shoes,you know.
So there is this fear becauseit's we get so caught up in what
is happening to us right now welose the ability to see the
horizon and the potential growthor change that comes, that will
(04:26):
be on that end of the journey.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Wow, I can only imagine what that's like because
you know, for example, mydaughter.
She's left handed right.
We don't find a lot of lefthanded things for people for
people that use their left hands, that are left-handed.
So I get it.
I totally get it, because youknow you often don't find
(04:56):
left-handed scissors.
I mean they exist, but it'seasier to find scissors for
people who are right-handed, areright-hand, dominant, right.
So I totally get that.
And for me, just you know,having a child who is left
handed and just working around,that you know getting her to use
little tools and little thingswhen she wants to do crafts, and
you know what I mean I can onlyimagine how huge it is on the
(05:19):
other side when you have someonewho is neurodivergent.
They have a completely differentbrain, they see the world
differently, they perceivethings differently and maybe
they're even more sensitive to alot of things.
And the world really hasn'tcaught up to really being able
to facilitate a culture that isdynamic enough to accommodate,
(05:46):
have proper accommodation topeople with different brains,
whether it be in our schools, ininstitutions, in the workplace.
I mean, you see, like certainthings, certain workplaces, they
might have certainaccommodations, but it's not
enough, it's never enough enoughand it doesn't cover the vast
(06:07):
differences and, um, thevariations among people who are
in your neurodivergent.
So I totally get the fearthere's, just like you think
about everything that possiblycould go wrong when you have a
child that doesn't function theway that everyone else's kids do
.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
And it's a point of immense privilege, you know.
I mean you mentioned theleft-handed thing.
I mean, one of my favoriteexamples of privilege is if
you're left-handed and you walkinto a classroom, the first
thing you have to find are whereare the left-handed desks?
And it's not a thing thatright-hand dominant people like
me ever need to think about.
I can say whatever the heck Iwant, right, yeah, do, do, do,
(06:49):
do here, I go right, but yourkiddo has to think about that
and that's a thing that theyhave to think about a million
little moments a day, and itwears you down.
You know what I mean.
If she ever drives a manual car, right, I mean here in the the
(07:10):
you know North America our stickshifters are on the right side,
yeah, right, so, which meansshe's going to be shifting the
car with her non-dominant hand.
Not a thing that, as aright-handed person, I have to
need to think about, I ever needto think about, and you know I
actually often likeleft-handedness, colorblindness,
neurodivergence are are sort ofunder this umbrella of
(07:31):
invisible differences.
Yeah, you can't look at someoneuntil they're left-handed.
You can't look at someone untilthey're colorblind.
Well, it depends on whatthey're wearing, I guess.
Uh, but, but it's those thingsthat.
So when people who, who don'tlook any different, ask for
accommodations, there's thesystem tends to respond to that
(07:53):
in a what why would you needsomething different?
You look able bodied, you looknormal, you look neuro,
neurotypical, and then it's all.
It's analogous to almost like acoming out process and you have
to decide what parts ofyourself you need to reveal.
(08:13):
You feel comfortable to reveal,you feel safe to reveal, and
when I talk about stuff likethis, I usually anchor this it's
like I'm the most privilegedhuman in the world.
I am a straight, cisgender,heterosexual, white male with a
doctorate.
I mean, come on right, it'sjust ain't nobody more
privileged than me, right?
(08:34):
But it's the sort of thing.
I still have areas where Istruggle with, areas where I
don't have privilege, but I talkto you and I think about how
much privilege I have vis-a-visthe person I'm talking to.
It's a great lens to look atall this stuff through, because
we have to meet people wherethey are and we have to believe
(08:56):
them when they tell us aboutstuff that comes from a place
that we don't see.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yeah, yeah, I love that you mentioned that.
It's that unseen element thatmakes it so challenging and in a
lot of cases can be sodangerous.
For me it can be dangerous, orfor a Black man it can be
dangerous.
You know what I mean.
A neurodivergent Black man thatdoesn't respond the way that
you might expect any other manto respond could get shot
(09:28):
because maybe it's notunderstood that his brain works
a little bit different, so hiscues are different, he responds
to cues differently.
There's that element, right.
But then, even taking race outof that, when you look at just
anyone else, right, there arejust so many accommodations that
are lacking when you go intothe office, when you go into
(09:49):
work, and maybe your boss can'tunderstand why you function a
certain way or why you respond acertain way, and things can
lead to conflict when thecommunication breaks down
because you don't communicate inthe same way that everyone else
does.
So I kind of get it, because Iknow from speaking to people who
(10:14):
has some level ofneurodivergence, there's some
people.
They might not have the samefocus as someone else, right,
not have the same focus assomeone else, right?
Maybe they need certainaccommodations that allows them
to be able to focus and you know, their brains are going a
million miles a second and theyneed some accommodation to help
(10:37):
them to focus on something.
It's not as if they're notcapable of doing it, but they
need an extra accommodation inorder to get that done.
So I know, when it comes touniversities, they have certain
accommodations, but I'm not evensure if that's enough, because,
having gone to universitymyself, it's there, but I don't
(10:59):
know.
I don't know.
So I want to ask you how can webetter support and advocate for
the neurodivergent people inour lives?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Well, I mean, you mentioned university, and that's
a.
It's an interesting place tostart, because for a long time
we've thought aboutneurodivergence in terms of
education, right, I mean becausethat's at least in the United
States, right, that's where weget most of where the mental
health and societal structuresintermix.
(11:36):
So your kid has ADHD, well,okay, well, we have to put some
accommodations in school so thiskid can learn, because it's our
job to teach this kid, right,but it's the same, your ADHD
doesn't magically go away whenyou turn 18, you graduate high
school, right, I mean, now youhave to enter into work, work or
higher education that have lessobligation to meet you where
(11:58):
you are and serve you.
I've had clients ask foraccommodations for adhd or
dyslexia at work and have themtold, like, those things don't
file under the Americans withDisabilities Act, which is not
true.
I mean, they're actually in theletter of the law, but people
say they're not because there'sstill this perception that's
(12:18):
like, well, if you just workedharder, if you just focused,
then you wouldn't have theseproblems.
You know, and that's why Iground so much of what I do in
neuroscience, because it's like,hey, I can point to you on
brain scans how these people'sbrains are literally different,
and I'm not saying that's goingto change every heart and mind,
(12:38):
but when you look at an ADHDbrain on an fMRI and you look at
a neurotypical brain, you cansee the difference.
I mean it's remarkable.
And you know, I mean a GreatDane and Chihuahua are still
dogs.
They're both dogs.
Yeah, nobody would look at themand think that they're the same
thing and need the same stuff,right?
(12:59):
Yeah, so you know, the ADHDbrain is a different kind of dog
and it may need special food,it may need to go on walks more
often, and why would we givethat grace and understanding to
our pets and not give it to ourchildren?
I mean, my good, I'm a dog guy,so this is not an anti-dog rant
(13:21):
.
That's a great way to turn offthe podcast listeners.
Be like, I'm not pro-dog, I amvery pro-dog and cat.
But yeah, it's, you know.
So we need to think aboutaccommodations, because the
brains we have impact our entirelives.
They impact the friends we make, the games we play, the jobs we
(13:45):
get or the jobs we avoid.
They impact the kinds of dateswe go on.
They impact the substances weconsume and the vacations we go
on.
I mean, you know, that's why itbrings me such great joy to see
so many more sensory-friendlyplaces in airports, at stadiums.
You know, the Toronto Raptorsjust debuted their big
(14:06):
sensory-friendly space at theScotiabank Center, I think in
downtown Toronto.
Right, I mean those are thethings we need because, if you
want, if the goal of anytreatment plan is inclusion,
then the spaces those people areentering must be inclusive.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Right.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah, you're so right on that.
I'm really glad that youmentioned that sensory aspect,
because I know that we havechildren, that their sensory
system are just builtdifferently.
Yeah, their sensory system arejust built differently, yeah,
right.
And so they don't communicateor show affection, for example,
(14:51):
or maybe things might kind oftrigger them in ways that it
doesn't trigger the rest of us,and I think that is so
challenging.
I can only imagine because, as aparent myself, my little one
she's six years old this yearand she has a lot of big
feelings, a lot of big emotions.
(15:12):
So, on a regular day, I think alot of us struggle so much to
deal with our own crap, our ownfeelings.
There's so much things that wekind of push down.
There's so much of our ownemotional baggage that we have
that we still struggle to dealwith.
A lot of us lack emotionalintelligence, a lot of us are
(15:36):
not great communicators, a lotof us has trauma that has yet to
be acknowledged, much less tobe processed, and when you have
a child or a loved one that hasyet to be acknowledged, much
less to be processed, and whenyou have a child or a loved one
that has a different brain andwho needs different
accommodations, the entireexperience can become so
triggering when you have peoplewho have not dealt with your own
(15:59):
personal issues, so I can seeit being such a huge challenge.
What would be your advice inthis case?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
The advice is twofold .
So just because you are whereyou are doesn't mean you can't
get better.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Right.
I mean, have you ever gone backand listened to your first
podcast you ever recorded?
Speaker 1 (16:25):
No.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Pour yourself a glass of wine and do it because it's
rough.
It's rough.
I recently listened to the veryfirst webinar I ever gave and I
was like oh, oh God, I hatethis, I hate this, I hate this,
oh God, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this.
And it's amazing because ourgrowth is constant, but it's
(16:50):
subtle.
Yeah, and you wake up one dayand you go, whoa, I'm so much
better at this than I was.
But in order to get there, youhave to start.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
And so that's the other side of this.
Is that imagine how much betteryou could do if you gave
yourself permission to be abeginner.
You can only start where youare.
You're like okay, well, listen,once I lose 50 pounds, then I'm
going to go date.
No, I get where that fear comesfrom, but you can start that
(17:24):
right now.
You know, I mean it's.
You know, I tell my clients allthe time it's like don't wait
to be happy.
Right, if there are things youcan do right now to put you on
that journey towards happiness,take that step right now.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You know, the best time to start trying something
was 10 years ago.
The second best time to startis right now.
You know, and I said we alsolike, ah, if only I had started
this.
And yeah, but you can start itright now.
I mean, I travel all the timefor work.
I'm often going places to givetalks and speaking conferences
and for a long time I just neversigned up for one of those
(18:02):
hotel points systems, right, andnow I am, and now I have a
million points in a hotel chain,but it's like I would.
I just never signed up for oneof those hotel points systems,
right, and now I am, and now Ihave a million points at a hotel
chain, but it's like I wouldhave so many more points.
Oh, my God, I left so manypoints on the table just because
I was bored or stubborn or lazyor whatever word we want to use
.
And and every time I look at mypoint total, there's that
(18:22):
little voice in the back of myhead.
That's like you could have more.
Yes, but I also have a lot.
Right, I started when I startedand I can't change when I
started, but I can move forward,trying to maximize that growth,
and I think there's.
I think that's a a lesson thatall of us can benefit from,
(18:44):
because it's we're so hard onourselves when it comes to
growth and change.
Well it's, I'm not good attalking to other people and I'll
never be good at talking toother people, so I'll just
choose to be miserable.
You're, you are as good at itas you are right now.
If you engage with systems andservices and helpers to get
better at it, I'll, I'll bet you, I'll bet you any amount of
(19:06):
money that you'll be better atit in a year.
But you've got to be willing tostart and willing to keep going
, and that's where it gets hard.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
It takes a level ofself-awareness just that level
of self-awareness Because I knowthere are a lot of parents that
they tried their best.
Having kids that areneurodivergent, gifted, having
different brains process is soscary and, um, you're not all
(19:38):
fixed and healed and you knowwhen these things fall on your
lap, you know you're just tryingyour best, you're really just
trying your best, you're reallyjust trying your best and you're
trying to show up as best asyou can.
So I can only imagine thechallenge, coupled with all the
fears that you touched onearlier, about how your kids can
(20:02):
function as they grow up.
You know, in school and in allthese different spaces, that
they will have to kind of adjustto spaces that most of them
really have not given any realthought to, how they can really
serve the rest of the communitythat are not like them.
(20:23):
So, yeah, it's a really toughcookie but, as you said, it's
never too late to start.
It's.
You know it is the best chancethat you can get to start to
even work on your stuff and workon yourself.
I say all the time.
You know, being a mom of girls,I have become a much better
(20:43):
person.
You know, being a mom has mademe so much better.
It has.
My kids have kind of mirroredso many things that I did not
see in myself, kind of pulledout a lot of things that I
didn't know were there, and fromthat I used that to build on
that and just becoming aware ofall those different qualities
(21:09):
about myself that I can improveon and you know and also notice
the things that are reallybeautiful about me, right.
So it's such a huge learningcurve for parents, for families
and for the people who are alsoexperiencing it themselves.
So definitely love that yousaid that it's never too late.
(21:33):
Just start right now.
What advice would you give?
We're talking about theworkspace and talking about
bosses not wanting toaccommodate.
You know saying like, yeah, itdoesn't cover this, it doesn't
cover that, that refusal ofaccommodation or maybe dismissal
, as in like they really don'tcare.
(21:54):
And then there's that personalthing whereby you experience
imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Do I really belong?
Speaker 1 (22:01):
here, Is this my space.
Like, can I come into thisspace and get along with these
people and how am I going tocommute to these people
effectively when my brain right?
This is a thing I talk about alot.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
So imposter syndrome stems from a place where you
have been made, eitherimplicitly or explicitly, to
feel different than yoursurroundings, right?
So if you have ADHD and younotice everybody else knows
where their jacket is and youhave no idea where your jacket
is, then that's a thing thatmakes you feel a little bit
different.
And that difference can sort ofgrow and metastasize into
(22:55):
something like imposter syndrome.
Because if I'm so differentthen perhaps I don't belong here
, perhaps I'm just foolingeverybody.
I had a travel sales job rightafter college and, like
everybody else there had gottena business degree or like
majored in marketing or sales,and I'm like I was a psychology
major, I worked at a lab and Igot burned out from working in a
(23:19):
lab.
So I just took the first joband it's like oh, it's got a bar
in the office and I get totravel internationally.
That sounds pretty great.
Shout out to EF Tours Firstreal job I ever had.
And in that case my awareness ofmy difference made me work
harder because I was like Idon't have the skills these
other people have.
I got to work my butt off andit was a lot of work and it was
(23:42):
a lot of struggle, but thatcould have just as easily
drowned me.
It could have been an anchoraround my neck.
I had a great manager who sawme and helped me develop as a
person, right.
And so when I came into workwearing, you know, very wrinkled
shirts or like pants that werelike technically work pants but
(24:04):
really shouldn't have been workpants, she pulled me aside.
She's like what are you doing?
You're like you don't look likea professional.
Look at everybody else in thisoffice.
I'm like, right.
And then there was an old Navyin the mall right down the road
and I went to old Navy and I waslike I need to buy pants.
And I bought pants and you know, and it's the sort of thing,
like it's those little thingsyou need.
(24:26):
Awareness only takes you so far.
Support gets you the rest of theway yeah right and, and you
know, support can be adouble-edged sword, because you
have to ask for it and you haveto ask for it for people who are
willing to give it, and thatcan be very tricky, you know,
(24:46):
and the imposter syndrome willtell you.
Well, you know, like if youwere really good at this, you
wouldn't need help, you know, Imean, if you were truly a good
parent, you wouldn't need timeoff from your kids, right?
And it's like you know and I've, like all the parents were
listening to this are goinguh-huh.
So I will say this as a as achild psychologist and as a
(25:11):
parent of two, I need breaksfrom my kids.
There are times my kids driveme up a wall.
That doesn't make me a badparent.
It doesn't make me a fraud as aparent or a partner.
It means that I'm human as aparent or a partner.
It means that I'm human andthere is no greater gift to
(25:32):
ourselves that we can give thanto allow ourselves to be human.
Because the goal of all thiswork we're trying to do right,
all of this work, it isn't to beperfect, it's to be resilient,
it's to be adaptable, it's to,it's to survive and thrive.
I mean, if you try to be theperfect parent, I guarantee you
you'll fail, because the perfectparent doesn't exist and
(25:57):
whatever you're doing that'sworking right now will probably
not work in six months or sixyears.
Right?
People change, so you've got tohave a skill set that changes
and grows along with the needsof your environment, that
changes and grows right.
And this is actually a way inwhich neurodivergent people can
be great employees, becausewe're already outside the box
(26:21):
thinkers.
We're already used to figuringout how to survive on the
margins.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Right.
So we're actually wired to bemore nimble, right, and I think
that's a cool thing.
I mean, if companies can tapinto that, I mean that's a
potential goal of mine.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah, that is so true .
I spoke to someone I have anepisode coming out soon and it
was around the same kind ofthing.
This gentleman, he has adisability, he's blind, and we
spoke about the same thing.
Society views accommodation asan extra thing, like we have to
(27:04):
do so much, we have to spend somuch in order to do this
accommodation.
It's as if it's like, um, likethey're being pressured to do a
lot of people or companies Um,not everyone, of course, but the
energy that has been given,it's like it's too much, it's
going to cost us too much to dothis.
Um, it's going to take too mucheffort and too much, it's going
(27:25):
to cost us too much to do this.
It's going to take too mucheffort and too much time to do
that.
You know how many people evenrequire that kind of
accommodation.
Most of us are normal, right,that's the kind of thinking that
is out there.
But he said this similar to whatyou just said, that people need
to realize companies especiallythat having these
(27:46):
accommodations would actuallyhelp the lives of everyone else
Everyone, because you know hespoke about, for instance,
having sidewalks that are shapeddifferently, having the curve
right, so that you're not peoplewho are blind, are not kind of
tripping over themselves whenthey're crossing the street and
(28:07):
trying to get on the curve.
He said think about moms whohave strollers, who are pushing
their babies.
How much easier that would befor them if the sidewalk was
shaped differently.
So he said society needs toview creating and facilitating
these accommodations.
They need to view it as apositive thing because
(28:28):
ultimately, not only does ithelp people who are disabled or
people with different brains,but it ultimately helps everyone
else.
Everybody benefits from this,because it also makes the lives
of people who are considerednormal easier.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah, everybody wins.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, everybody wins.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
There's a meme that floats around the various
disability boards online whereit's a bunch of kids trying to
get into school and the stairsand the ramp are covered in snow
and the janitor's shoveling thestairs and he's like I'll get
to you in a you second kid in awheelchair.
The kid who else says but ifyou cover, if you uncover the
ramp, we can all go up exactlyright.
I mean there's a.
There's a client I work withwho is you know.
(29:21):
He's very neurodivergent and Iwas able to help get him an
accommodation where he can workfrom home as a default, and if
they need him to come into theoffice, we set it up that he has
to come into the office.
And if that's not, if, if thatis a possibility for your job,
(29:43):
then I truly believe that shouldbe the default.
Everything we know, all thedata we have from the last four
years of people working remotely, is people are happier, they
get just as much work done, theyspend less time in the car,
it's better for the environment.
I mean, it really is just sortof a win-win and it's the sort
(30:07):
of thing I understand.
There are financial reasons,like those giant buildings
downtown are not going to payfor themselves yeah and if you
have a company meeting or an allcall or a, you know you need to
be there to push that productout.
I guess, sure, I get it.
There are times you gotta gotto come into the office.
I don't, I don't need, you know, I don't need them to like,
(30:29):
push that so hard.
I think that the other side ofit is let's have, let's have a
conversation about what theemployee needs to be successful
and where that can take place.
That's an outside the boxthinking.
You think about it.
Basically, for all of humanhistory up into the last five,
(30:52):
10 years, you had a job.
You went to the office.
I used to have a really cooloffice to see therapy clients
and all this exposed brick itwas a very beautiful place and
during COVID I broke my leasebecause I was like I'm going to
be paying thousands of dollarsfor a space I can't use.
And then I realized workingremotely, seeing clients
virtually, is easier for me,it's easier for my clients, it's
(31:15):
financially better.
I mean if my kids have a snowday they can be home.
I mean it's a win-win right.
You know so, you know, I thinkthose right, you know so, you
know I think those, those ideas,the changing dynamics of a
world, are hard for people toadapt to.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
But when we adapt to them, there's a, there are
scenarios where everybodybenefits yeah, a lot of them
actually, so many of them thesimplest one I can think of is
you know that little when you goto the mall and you push a
little thing on the door to letthe door open, it might come
simple, but during COVID itbecame a huge thing.
(31:56):
Yeah Right, because, like, theyeven install the ones where you
kind of wave and the door open.
Because we were kind of afraidof getting the disease,
transmitting the disease.
We weren't yet sure of how thedisease was even transmitted,
and so now we're getting afraidto touch things that other
people had touched.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Right.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
And so all of those little things came into play
when COVID happened, right, andwe found a way to make it even
better by creating the sensoryones, where you kind of just
waste the door opens for you, noneed to touch that surface.
So that is the simplest one Ican think of, but it was so huge
during a time when we were incrisis, and it goes to show how
(32:42):
much society can truly benefitfrom creating equitable
accommodations for everyone.
Think about your neighbor,think about the children, think
about people who really have togo through their entire lives
struggling or second guessingthemselves because society makes
(33:03):
them feel different.
And society reiterates to themall the time like, hey, why do
you do something like that?
Like, why do you, why do youwalk like that?
Why do you talk like that?
Why do you think like that?
Why can't you do this right?
Instead, it should be oh, youcan do that, that's cool.
You can think like that.
(33:23):
Tell me more yep, right, but wedon't get that a lot of the
time.
So everything you said, so true?
Um, I'm really enjoying thisconversation.
I want to get into, you know,you mentioned something earlier
that caught my interest, andwhat is it like when you kind of
(33:43):
get on the dating scene, that'slike a whole different can of
worms, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Oh, absolutely.
I mean, are you kidding me?
Like it's?
Dating as a neurodivergentperson is a whole thing, and I'm
one of the few people in thespaces I travel in who talks
about dating and sex and sexeducation for neurodivergent
(34:12):
people through that lens,because it's so important.
I mean, remember we said beforeour brains come with us
wherever we are.
Right, you know, I mean forwhatever, for the challenges
that exist in socializing anyway.
They're so much more complexwhen you're talking about dating
(34:33):
, romance, sex, because thenthere's even more nuance.
You know, one of my clients wassaying to me the other day he's
like so, dr Matt, in movies allthe time the female character
will say I don't like you, Idon't want to kiss you, and then
10 seconds later she's kissinghim.
Why, like, didn't she just sayno?
And I'm like how do I evenbegin to unpack that?
(34:56):
Because it's very complicated.
And that's why I actually thinkthat sex education and dating
101 are parts of good socialemotional learning for kids.
Because how do you declare yourneeds?
How do you say to somebody Ilike this, I don't like this,
I'm willing to try this?
How do you say I don't want youto touch me?
(35:18):
How do you say I really, reallywant you to touch me Right,
like how do you have thoseconversations?
And I think it's great thatwe're moving towards a world of
more open and honestconversations about boundaries,
about physical safety, aboutconsent, because consent is a
term that can be analogous tosoccer dating, family get
(35:44):
togethers, sex, being at thegrocery store, right Anytime you
can use language of consent.
It gives us a framework to saywhat we need and what we don't
need.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
And you know so, and I've had kids say like, oh, I
can never establish thoseboundaries because if someone,
if I'm lucky enough thatsomebody, wants to have sex with
me, I'm going to let them dowhatever they want.
And I was, was like that's likenot only a very sad way to say
well, it's potentially dangerous.
You can get into a very badrelationship with that kind of
thought.
But if it comes from a place ofI am, I'm an imposter, I'm
(36:21):
fundamentally unworthy, I'm, Iam too different, then that's
very fertile ground for thosekind of thoughts to grow from.
And we know thoughts lead tofeelings, lead to behaviors.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Right.
So you know, I mean, it reallystarts with a self-study.
It starts with what do I like,what don't I like?
You know, are you somebody whocouldn't go on a date to a fancy
restaurant because you'd be tooanxious?
Being in a fancy restaurant,like how do I use the several
forks?
Right, like you know, okay.
(36:53):
So then what does a good datelook like for you?
Is it a cup of coffee?
Is it ice cream?
Is it walking around a park?
You know, those are all finedates and you can communicate
that to the person you want todate.
And here's what I tell myclients, and I genuinely believe
this If they say absolutely not, then they're not the sort of
person you wanted to date in thefirst place.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Right.
If you think a beer at thecorner pub is a good date and
they want to go to the opera andyou don't like operas, then
they're probably, no matter howpretty they are.
No-transcript.
(37:35):
Those sort of moments remind usthat we're allowed to have our
own deal breakers.
We're allowed to have our ownvalues and enact them in systems
, even if we feel like we mightnot be worthy of that.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Yeah, that's so true, and I love that you mentioned
consent.
That is a language that we allneed to include in our parenting
moving forward.
Whether your kids areconsidered neurodivergent or not
, that is something that we allneed to really be attentive with
.
From everything you've justsaid, I can only imagine the
(38:11):
amount of anxiety that comeswith dating, and you previously
mentioned a creative frameworkthat you use not just with
dating but pretty mucheverything else that we've been
speaking about, because theanxiety and fears are always
there.
So how do you use this creativeframework to create those
(38:34):
alternative narratives thatcould help to counteract the
effects of that?
Speaker 2 (38:39):
alternative narratives that could help to
counteract the effects of that.
That's, I think, fundamentallywhat therapy is all about is
creating alternate narratives.
If your brain only tells youone story, right.
For instance, for a long time,my brain told me the story of if
your kids aren't happy, you'renot a good parent.
Not a good story.
(39:00):
It's not true, it's notaccurate, it's not possible,
because the things that make mykids happy are often the things
that I cannot give them, or cangive them only in certain
amounts.
My son would be happy to lay onthe couch and watch Blaze and
the Monster machines all day.
I mean, you, you, you wouldn'tmove.
(39:21):
He'd be a very happy camper,right.
But it's important as a parentfor me to make sure he goes to
school and runs around outsideand and has a healthy lunch and
all those other things.
So you know.
So now I have a narrative in myhead that says sometimes we do
know better and sometimes I haveto like the things I'm going to
(39:44):
say are helpful but might makehim unhappy in the short term.
And that's an okay counternarrative, right?
If there's one thing that's trueabout our brains is that, in
the absence of other information, our brains only tend to tell
us one story, right, and thatstory tends to be catastrophic,
right?
You know, my best friend hasn'ttexted me today.
(40:04):
Oh my God, they hate me.
Oh my God, they're mad at me.
What did I do?
And then you ramp yourself upbecause, remember, thoughts lead
to feelings, lead to behaviors,and by the time your friend
actually texts you, you're likeoh great, yeah, it's like I'm
going to respond to that textmessage, because you twist
yourself up into knots over athing that may have not actually
happened.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
That is so true.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
I mean, we're all human.
I do it too, right.
So it's this sort of thing.
It's like I always tell peopletry not to focus on what if.
Try to focus on what if.
Try to focus on what is right.
What if this thing happens?
Well, it might, but what ishappening to you right now is
more important.
(40:46):
Whatever control we have overthe universe exists a lot more
in the what is than the what ifyeah and and that's the sort of
thing.
like you know, I'm sure thatI've gotten a gazillion you know
a gazillion emails since I'vebeen talking to you while we
were doing this podcast and like, well, what if one of them was
(41:08):
important?
What if one of them was totallytime sensitive?
What?
What is happening right now isI'm on this podcast and that
that's okay, right, the thereality is is the vast majority
of messages we get can wait.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Right, and you know I tell people all the time.
You could distill therapy downto the idea that it's about
holding two different thoughtsin your head at the same time.
I am anxious about being aparent, and I am still a good
parent.
I don't know where the hell I'mgoing to find somebody to date
(41:48):
me, but I am worthy of love,right, you know I don't know if
the kind of job I need exists,but there are resources I can
ask to help me find that job,because if we only tell one
story, then there's no nuance,there's no reflection point,
it's all just gunk, and I don'tlike gunk.
(42:12):
I want there to be moregoodness in the world and I
think that's a pretty powerfulthing.
But that goodness can startwith the stories we tell
ourselves and the gifts we giveourselves of being more flexible
and open to other possibleexplanations.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
I definitely agree with you on that.
Just before we wrap up, I knowthat you use the eclectic
approach to therapy.
I'd like you to talk about thata little bit.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
So, yeah, I mean, my eclectic approach is basically
comes from years of working withkids in different spaces, and a
lot of people describe me asaggressively pragmatic, like if
it works, I'm going to do it, ifit doesn't work, I'm not going
to do it, you know, becausefundamentally, best practices
(43:01):
are only helpful in as much asthey help our kids, right?
So if the you know, if RussellBarkley says this is what works
with kids for ADHD, but itdoesn't work for your kid with
ADHD, well then then we'reprobably not going to do that
Right, or we're going to tweakit in some way to make it work
for your kid.
So my eclectic approach is likepull from cognitive therapy and
(43:23):
acceptance and commitmenttherapy and attachment theory
and processing and gamification.
And I have a lot of tools in mytoolbox, right, and
increasingly I'm bringing thosetools to organizations.
Increasingly I'm bringing thosetools to organizations,
companies, schools that aretrying to get that kind of
impact at a much broader level,right?
(43:44):
So next week I'm going to talkto a big law firm here in the US
, because a lot of their parents, who are very bright and
capable people are.
Also, I'm sorry, a lot of theirlawyers, who are very bright
and capable people are alsostruggling with parenting and
navigating all those pieces ofit.
So we're going to talk abouthow do you hold space for both
(44:05):
of those things and how to giveyourself permission to be less
than perfect at something.
So, if that stuff soundsinteresting to you you know I'm
very Google-able, you know I'mthe only Dr Matt Zuckreski out
there, so that's easy.
Um, the name of our practice isthe neurodiversitycollectivecom
.
Um, it's a mouthful, but onceagain, it's very Googleable.
(44:27):
Um, and a lot of people uh,engage with me on Facebook.
Um, facebookcom slash.
Dr Matt Zuckreski.
Um, you know, it's nerdy humor,some mental health stuff, some
positive affirmations.
I just try to put out a lot ofgood in the world and I find
(44:48):
that 99% of the time it getsreflected back to me.
So I guess I'm on a mission tohelp as many people as I can
understand their brains,understand how to make life a
little easier, and if we do that, then I can sleep well when my
head hits the pillow at night.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
As someone who studies psychology myself, I you
know that that is somethingthat really stood out to me.
I think this is something thatwe all know by now that one shoe
doesn't fit all right.
It's.
We can't do a cookie cutterkind of thing for everyone and
you know, five people with ADHDthe same therapy won't work for
(45:25):
them.
Five people with Asperger's thesame therapy won't work for
them, for each individual.
So definitely love that, I lovewhat you're doing and thank you
so much for sitting with metoday.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
Oh my gosh it was.
It was a great pleasure from myside, you know, and you create
just such a wonderful, warmpodcast space, so that's really
awesome.
And you know, if I can evercome back, I would certainly
love to talk to you some more.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Definitely.
I would love that actuallyDefinitely.
Thank you so much, Dr Matt.
Speaker 2 (46:01):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Thank you so much for listening.
You can support our work bysharing this podcast with your
friends and family, or you canalso make a one-time donation.
If you'd like to know moreabout Dr Matt and his work, I've
included all his links below inthe show notes.
Until next time.
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