June 14, 2024 • 73 mins
Key Takeaways:
- The fear that exists on both ends of, the person living with suicidal thoughts and, the friends or family members who are not sure how to address it without causing more harm.
- The importance of being direct when addressing a person who you suspect to be thinking of harming themself or someone else; i.e. are you thinking about hurting yourself? Are you thinking about dying?…
- The language we use to speak about suicide and why it needs to change.
This conversation with Lisa Sugarman, a Boston-based author, columnist, crisis counselor and three-time survivor of suicide loss, uncovers the profound ways our words influence perceptions and stigma, through looking at how language can shape our understanding of suicide and mental health, stressing the critical need for more compassionate language, moving away from terms like "committed suicide" which criminalize and stigmatize.
Lisa speaks on the emotional complexities of losing her father to suicide and the heavy burden of secrecy that followed. She describes the prolonged mourning and emotional isolation she experienced, emphasizing the importance of processing chaotic emotions and seeking assistance. We also celebrate the power of advocacy, community and authenticity, highlighting the impactful work of The Trevor Project in supporting the LGBTQ+ community, with resources spanning suicide prevention, mental health, gender identity, diversity etc.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kertia (00:00):
A few months back I spoke with Lisa Sugarman, an
author, columnist and three-timesurvivor of suicide loss, and
she highlighted why we shouldrefrain from using the phrase
committed suicide in momentswhen we are attempting to bring
light to loss by suicide.
And this is just a reminder ofhow powerful words are, because
(00:24):
not only do they help us tocreate and convey meanings, but
they also, in turn, affect andreflect the attitudes we have
towards the things we perceiveand talk about in our society.
So the language we usedefinitely has the power to
shape our ideas and feelingsabout anything.
(00:45):
So a phrase like committedsuicide likens the act itself to
something that is taboo,something that is socially
unacceptable and frowned upon.
Because it's very common thatwhenever we've used the term
committed in a sentence todescribe the actions of a person
, it's usually because they'vedone something very wrong, like
(01:09):
committed murder, for example.
And unfortunately we've usedthis type of language to
describe suicide for such a longtime, which, in its essence,
criminalizes it.
It criminalizes something thatreally should be viewed as a
symptom of an illness.
So we definitely want to changethe language around suicide
(01:33):
because, in effect, it helps tochange the way we think about it
, the way we feel about it, sothat we can, at large, begin to
change the perception of it.
That will consequently impactthe stigma associated with
suicide.
Just jumping from where we leftoff, the last time we spoke,
(02:01):
you mentioned having lostmultiple people to suicide, and
that is so hard.
I can't even imagine what it islike dealing with that, but I
want to know how it has affectedyour journey personally.
Lisa (02:17):
So the people I've lost.
They're obviously people whoare very, very close to me.
I mean, you can't get anycloser than having your father
die by suicide.
I had my cousin who you knowlived a 10th of a mile up the
street from me growing up.
(02:38):
He was not quite 10 years olderthan I was, so you know he was
kind of in a different place inlife than I was in.
So our worlds, while theycollided a lot in those family
settings, didn't collide a lotbecause he was so much older.
But he lived right around thecorner and his death and his
(02:58):
suicide was really the firstexperience that I had ever had
with loss and it was the firstexperience I think I had ever
had with suicide.
And my parents were very open ina very age appropriate way for
me, explaining to me that youknow that, that he, that he had
an illness that we couldn't seeand that, um, you know that that
(03:23):
he took his own life and, andso that was really kind of where
it ended.
And that kind of left me toform my own opinions about
suicide, my own belief systemsand I did for a very long time
kind of lean very heavily intothe idea that suicide was a very
selfish act and that came fromnowhere else but inside my own
(03:44):
heart and in my own mind and Ikind of carried that along and
then lost my father the yearafter my cousin passed away.
But we didn't know that myfather's death was a suicide.
I was always told that myfather had had a heart attack
and for 35 years that was thestory that I believed and I had
no reason to question it.
His mental illness was veryhidden, hidden from everybody,
(04:09):
and it wasn't until I was 45.
So my father passed away when hewas 45.
I learned when I was 45, thatmy father had died by suicide
and then, only just less thanthree years ago, one of our
closest childhood friends who,again, we never knew he was
struggling he took his life.
So there have been thesesuicides in my life that have
(04:35):
affected me so profoundly atsuch different points in my life
, in my life, and it's it's onlyin in really kind of
discovering my dad's suicide andkind of having that rewrite my
history and rewrite my memoriesand and create this need to
(04:56):
grieve everything all over againthat that just kind of set me
on a different path.
I mean only a matter of two orthree years ago, I was doing
very different work in the world.
I was putting out very differentkinds of content, having very
different kinds of podcastinterviews.
I was a parenting author.
I'd written a bunch ofparenting books.
I was very embedded in thatparenting space and talking to
(05:19):
parents about that work-lifebalance and the family unit and
raising kids and the way that myfather's suicide and my friend
and my cousin's suicidesimpacted my life was just to
change course completely fromtalking about raising kids to
talking about mental health andmental illness and how do we
(05:41):
stop that stigma?
So that's kind of the shortversion of my journey from there
to here.
Kertia (05:48):
Yeah, it's so hard to identify when the people we love
the most are struggling,because oftentimes they often
are the ones that seems the mostoutwardly happy, or you know
they always have this big smileon their faces and I can say
that truthfully from my ownexperience I haven't personally
(06:43):
experienced someone killingthemselves due to or who.
I would just say that they justseem so outwardly bubbly and
they're always smiling andthey're talking to everyone and
they're so extroverted and youknow like they seem like they're
so confident.
When you look at that guy, whenhe's out and he's doing his
(07:04):
thing, you're just like geez,like I wish I could be like that
.
You know someone I knew theykind of got to their breaking
(07:27):
point and luckily they reachedout to me and I was able to have
that conversation.
But it was just reallyastounding to me because I had
no idea that this person wasreally struggling, right.
So it's so hard and I'm justsaying that to say that, you
know, there's also that stigmathat we have.
(07:50):
Although, you know, in societywe're just beginning to now
really acknowledging mentalhealth and everything
surrounding that, I think thatthere's also this level of fear
as well, especially when itcomes to the people around you,
right, when it comes to familyand friends.
(08:10):
I think sometimes we might knowsomeone is struggling.
There are just so many levelsto it, because sometimes we know
someone is struggling and wewant to help.
But sometimes do you think thatthere's just this fear of a
family member or a close friendjust feeling helpless.
You know, helpless from notknowing how to deal with a
situation whereby, when someoneyou love, they're experiencing
(08:32):
suicidal ideation or maybe justa fear of doing or saying the
wrong thing that could probablypossibly sink the person deeper
into that dark space.
You know like some level offear whereby you feel like
you're not.
You want to help but you're notquite equipped to help in the
(08:55):
way that they need, and so it'sjust like you want to help but
you're not reaching out.
You want to help but you don'twant to do or say too much.
It's just like there's just somany levels to it and I want to
know what you think about that.
Lisa (09:10):
Yeah, I'm listening to you and my mind is going 1000 miles
an hour because I'm thinking ofall the different ways that I
want to respond to that.
Because it's so.
It's so true that people getalmost debilitated by their fear
of making that mistake, thatcatastrophic mistake that causes
(09:30):
the person they're worriedabout to do something harmful.
And I think that, first of all,that fear definitely exists,
1000%.
I think that that fear existsas much on the person who's
struggling side as it does onthe person who wants to help
(09:50):
side.
And I'll tell you why.
I think that in a lot of cases,even though we're in a world
that's far more accepting ofmental illness now and has far
more mainstream resources,people are still afraid to say
I'm struggling, I'm in crisis,I'm suffering because they don't
know what's going to happen.
(10:11):
They're worried that they'regoing to be institutionalized.
They're worried that they'regoing to be stigmatized.
They're worried that they'regoing to lose their job or
they're going to lose theirpartner or the optics of who
they are in the world willchange.
So there's that whole bucket offear which prevents a lot of
(10:31):
people from saying like, hey,I'm over here and I'm really
struggling, help me.
Then you've also got the peopleyou're talking about, who are
the people who are seeingsomeone struggle, who want to do
something and want to be alifeline for that person and
they're petrified because theydon't know how to approach that
(10:52):
person.
And what I can say is this andI say this as a crisis counselor
who is on the phone all thetime, helping to, on the phone
all the time, helping tode-escalate people who may be
contemplating suicide orcontemplating harming themselves
or contemplating harmingsomeone else, or someone who is
(11:16):
just isolated and alone orfeeling depressed.
People just want to be heard,they want to be validated, they
want to be able to express howthey feel and have someone
receive it and have someone hearthem and not judge them and
(11:36):
just hold that space for them.
So what I can tell you isanyone who is in a situation
where they're concerned about afriend or concerned about a
loved one be direct, be direct.
I say this all the time andit's not just me saying it.
Any counselor, any crisiscounselor, any therapist, any
(12:00):
emergency response personnelwill tell you the same thing.
Ask the person directly usingvery basic language Are you okay
?
Are you thinking of killingyourself?
Are you thinking of harmingyourself?
Are you thinking of harmingsomeone else if you know that
their issue is with anotherperson?
By asking someone directly,using that kind of language even
(12:22):
though it seems like it mightbe blunt, even though it seems
really scary to ask someone whomight be suicidal if they want
to kill themselves it willactually have a very different
impact on that person than youmight think.
People think that by askingsomeone directly it's going to
cause that person to harmthemselves.
It is the absolute opposite.
By asking someone outright ifthey're thinking of hurting
(12:45):
themselves, you're validatingwhat they're feeling.
You're saying I see you, I hearyou, I understand that you're
in pain.
How can I help?
What can I do?
And there's a certain kind of Idon't.
I don't know what the wordwould be to use for this, but
there's like a certain qualityto being validated that puts
(13:08):
someone at ease.
Asking directly is going toactually reduce the risk of
someone's suicide.
So I know, while people mightbe afraid it's, the best thing
you can possibly do for someoneis to hold space for them and
then to just ask them if they'reokay.
Kertia (13:29):
Yeah, it's so easy to think that you would probably
offend a person or cause themsome level of distress by being
so direct, asking are you okay?
Are you thinking about killingyourself, something like that.
I think a lot of people arejust afraid.
You kind of don't know what todo, and I think another part of
(13:53):
it is sometimes you're probablyafraid of hearing the response.
Right, like, yeah, it'simportant for validating the
person and how they're feeling.
(14:14):
But on the other side of it, Ithink a lot of us has a problem
with acknowledging these heavythings.
You know, because a lot of us,even for someone who is
generally okay not to generalize, but generally what you would
consider just okay right, ofcourse they go through their own
struggles, they have their owndifficulties and challenges and
things like that, but nothingthat has yet caused them to
(14:36):
experience that level of mentalanguish that has resulted in
some level of suicidal ideation.
Someone who is generally okaystill usually has a problem with
connecting with your ownfeelings and your own emotions
and even just communicatingtheir own feelings and emotions
(14:58):
to their loved ones, to theirspouse, to their children, to
their family members.
Right, this is why we have somuch conflict happening all the
time, right, it's so hard for uson a normal day to sit with our
feelings, acknowledge them andto get our feelings out to you
know, even acknowledge our kids'feelings.
You say that you have somebooks on parenting, right, and
(15:22):
I'm sure, as a parent, you knowlike it's hard.
It's hard sometimes because forme, I'm a mom as well, of two
girls, and when I was new tomotherhood, there are just some
things that happened that Ididn't know how to deal with it.
I really didn't.
I am no longer in that space,but you know what it's like when
(15:44):
you have no idea how to respondto the situation.
You feel like you're just goingcrazy.
Sometimes it's hard toacknowledge your own child's
feelings, right, as a parent,right?
So how does that play out now,when you're dealing with a
situation that is so heavy, thatis so difficult to talk about,
(16:08):
that no one really spoke aboutit for so many years, and now
it's just yesterday that westarted to acknowledge this
thing.
You know, there has been somuch stigma previously attached
to it and there's still somelevel of stigma, depending on
which culture you come from,right, because culture has a
(16:28):
whole different dimension to itas well.
Lisa (16:31):
It does, you're right.
Kertia (16:33):
There's that level where it's just like, yeah, we need
to be direct, but if on aregular day we can't do that
with our kids, we can't do thatwith our partners, how do we do
that with someone that's incrisis?
Lisa (16:44):
we can't do that with our partners?
How do we do that with someonethat's in crisis?
Yeah, it's a hard one.
It's a really hard one and,look, being vulnerable is a
really scary place to be, but itcan also be an incredibly
liberating and empowering placeto be, and I'm thinking in terms
(17:10):
of what you just said aboutwell, what do I do if someone
confides in me that they aresuicidal, like I ask them the
question.
Kertia (17:22):
Whoops, we are experiencing some technical
difficulties.
Bear with me, guys.
Lisa (17:32):
I think that people are afraid of that.
I think people are afraid ofbeing in that position, like you
said a few minutes ago.
Well, what happens when someoneanswers the question, yes, I am
feeling suicidal or yes, I dowant to harm someone else, you
know that opens up a whole boxof challenges and that's, you
(17:56):
know.
That's a very understandablething to be afraid of.
But at the same time, we'reonly a single person with the
capacity to hear what someone issaying, take it in, validate it
, maybe try and help de-escalatethem by giving them some
options would be benefited bykeeping the 988 number, the 988
(18:27):
crisis and suicide hotlinenumber, like right here, right
in their head in their phone,kind of figuratively in their
pocket, all the time.
Because we don't all have allthe answers, we don't all know
all the resources, we can't allbe expected to navigate someone
else's pain and the depth ofsomeone else's struggle or
(18:51):
illness.
We and you can give that tosomeone as a resource.
That's a place where someonecan go to continue the
(19:12):
conversation, to find theappropriate resources, to maybe
discover some coping strategiesor a safety plan, and it's a way
that you can lead the personwho's struggling in a more
positive direction withouthaving to have all the answers
yourself.
(19:32):
So I think I think that foranybody listening who's fearful
of kind of opening up, that youknow that box of challenges with
someone.
Don't be afraid of that.
Just know that the only job youhave is to give that helpline
(19:54):
number to the person in crisis,because that's the help they
need in that moment.
Kertia (20:00):
That's a really good tip .
That is such a good tip becausewe are not all equipped to
handle.
To handle that, you know, and alot of us we struggle with just
dealing with our own stuff andthe stuff that happens with our
own families and kids.
And even when it's a familymember, you still have that fear
(20:23):
, you still have that thatanxiety about getting involved
or you want to get involved, buthow deep should I be involved?
You know, and you stillexperience that, even when it's
someone close to you.
So, um, having lost your dad, Ican't imagine how your own mom
even navigated her spouse goingthrough that.
Lisa (20:45):
Well, she didn't know.
She didn't know.
My mother had no idea that myfather was struggling, none at
all.
What my mother did, navigate byherself, completely by herself,
was the secret that he hadtaken his life.
So when he died and I was 10and it 1978, and where was she
(21:07):
going to go for copingstrategies and resources for
suicide?
They didn't exist, not the waythey do now.
So my mom, in that moment, madethat decision to tell me a
different story, to keep me fromthe added pain of knowing that
his death was a suicide.
(21:28):
So she had.
She had that secret in her headand in her heart for 35 years.
That's, that's the thing shedealt with.
She didn't know that he wasmentally ill.
Because, if you go all the wayback to the beginning of our
conversation, yours and mine.
We talked about um, about howskilled a lot of people are with
(21:48):
mental illness at keeping ithidden.
My dad was that person.
My dad was the guy that youwould see out in the world or
out you know, out and about, whohad the big smile on his face,
who was so charming and so kindand so loving, and you would
have no idea what was going onunder the surface.
(22:11):
Yeah, it goes.
You know people, everybody hastheir own coping strategies and
that's why it's so tough to knowwhen someone is hurting.
I mean, you look at all ofthese celebrities who have taken
their lives and and we see themmore often.
(22:31):
Because we see them and knowabout them more often, because
obviously they're in the publiceye.
So we learn about their storiesand you think, my God, like how
how could they have been so low?
Look at their life, look at allthey had.
How could they have been so low?
Look at their life, look at allthey had, look at all they did.
You know, mental illnessdoesn't discriminate.
(22:54):
It's equal opportunity as faras illnesses go.
It does not matter who you areor what successes you've had, or
how much money you've got.
None of that stuff matters, andbecause of that it can impact
anyone, which is why one of thethings that I do an awful lot
about talking about now is beingvulnerable, and there are two
(23:19):
things that I talk a ton about.
One is that power ofvulnerability and how it can
lead us to the help that wereally need, because we're being
honest with what's going on inour minds.
And the other thing isstorytelling.
That's why I tell the story ofmy dad's suicide whenever I can,
(23:43):
because it's a simple act andit's one of the oldest tools
we've got.
We did that before we hadanything else.
We told stories right, andthat's the thing that creates
community.
That's the thing that createshope.
It creates a connection, anunderstanding, a validation.
(24:04):
You know you can bond withsomeone who has had a similar
experience.
Look at Anderson Cooper fromCNN.
He's his new podcast, all thereIs.
You know Anderson talk aboutgetting vulnerable.
You know he lost his brother tosuicide, his mother passed away
, he lost his father.
I mean, he's had it over andover and over again and he's out
(24:28):
there sharing his story and youthink about all the people who
that story resonates with andthat empowers those people to
start sharing.
So it's a total trickle down,and that's how we do it.
Kertia (25:08):
You're so right on that.
Storytelling is so importantbecause one of those key things
that you can do that showspeople that you're not alone,
that your suffering isn't justunique to them alone, that there
are are in that darkness.
The whole fallacy of it all isthat you are the only person in
the world that feels the depthof this darkness, that can feel
this way, that you're the onlyperson and something must be
wrong with you.
You know what I mean.
Like no one can understand, noone can feel this, no one else
(25:30):
can possibly know what you'regoing through.
And that's pretty much whathappens when you're in that dark
space.
You feel alone, it's isolatingand you're suffering so much you
can't think that someone elsehas possibly went through the
same thing, went as deep and asdark as you did and came out of
(25:52):
it and survived it.
You know it's so hard to thinkabout that when you're in that
mind frame.
So storytelling is very, veryimportant to show people that
you're not alone.
Very, very important to showpeople that you're not alone, um
, other people are suffering asmuch as they have, or as much as
(26:13):
they currently are.
There's nothing wrong with them, they're not broken, they're
not flawed, um, and that theycan get help.
That is possible.
I know we don't have all theanswers and you can't say
anything is ever 100%.
And just to show that there areother possibilities out there,
(26:34):
yeah, also, just like what wewere speaking about, just the
fear of people intervening,whether you're a friend or a
family.
Don't be afraid.
Don't be afraid to intervene.
Don't be afraid to intervene,don't be afraid to speak up,
don't be afraid to ask the hardquestions and to have the
difficult conversations, becauseit's that fear that has held
(26:58):
you back from possibly helpingsomeone, from possibly
validating someone, frompossibly making them aware that
they're being seen that someonesees them, so yeah, In terms of
crisis intervention.
Lisa (27:16):
That's a huge piece of that equation.
Is that validating of someone'sfeelings?
Because, just like you said,people get so isolated in their
own headspace and they're sobogged down by whatever it is
that's affecting them that theyget so clouded and they can't
(27:40):
share it because they don'tthink they deserve the help.
They don't think their problemwarrants the help there.
I mean, like I said, mentalillness is a tricky bitch.
It's just, you know, it's, it'sjust, um, it's very deceiving
and it's very easy to become avictim of that type of toxic
(28:06):
thinking.
When you are the only one who'slocked in your own head, it's
when you start to put it outinto the world.
Not only do you get thatvalidation back, not only do you
feel seen and you feel heard,but when someone else, when you
talk to someone and you find out, oh my God, you were, you're
really feeling that too, oryou've gone through that too,
not only is that connectionincredibly valuable, but then
(28:30):
maybe, maybe you went throughsomething similar and I can
benefit from whatever youmight've done to get yourself
out of it.
We benefit from each other'sexperiences, we benefit from
each other's strategies and fromeach other's successes.
So all those things are kind ofbyproducts of storytelling and
(28:55):
of community and connection, andthat's where the real power is,
I think.
Kertia (29:01):
Absolutely, you're absolutely correct on that.
You said that so well.
I love it.
No, thank you.
So it would have been hard foryou to truly see her process in
(29:26):
this, in the truth of what herprocess really was.
So I'm aware of that.
But just having that loss whenyou came to that realization of
how your dad really died, howwould you advise someone to what
I say to seek help?
(29:46):
I'm not sure.
But what is the next step?
I wouldn't say to seek help,because you know, sometimes when
you experience something thattragic, you kind of just freeze,
right.
It takes so long for you toeven wrap your head around
what's happening, right.
So sometimes you kind of justfreeze and you're kind of stuck
(30:09):
in that frozen space for a while.
What could you advise from justfrom your personal experience
or from the counseling that youdo?
Lisa (30:21):
Well, I mean first of all for me in my case.
So I found out about myfather's suicide, so he died 45
years ago.
It was.
It was a whole new kind ofgrief, and suicide grief is so
(30:52):
nuanced, it's so different.
I mean not to minimize anyother kind of grief, because
every kind of grief is is sochallenging in itself.
Suicide is just is different.
There are different componentsthat don't exist in other types
of loss and for a long time thefirst few years, I would say I,
(31:15):
just like my mother, was theonly one who knew.
I told my husband I also havetwo daughters who are grown
women now.
They were teenagers at the timeand I didn't feel emotionally
ready to talk about it, evenwith my daughters.
For a number of years I satwith it.
I sat with it for probablythree years, cried myself to
(31:35):
sleep for three years life.
And then I was someone verydifferent.
When the bedroom door closed atnight and I put the girls to
sleep and I would climb into bedand I would cry and I did that
for three years, I would wake upsobbing in the middle of the
night out of a deep sleep and Iwent through that and I sat in
(32:00):
that and I felt that and I do alot of journaling, that's just
part of my own daily practice,and I was kind of putting it all
there.
This is before I was talkingabout it or writing about it
publicly, and then like, littleby little for me in my case,
what I would recommend anybodydo first and foremost, you just
have to somehow manage to sit inthose feelings, whatever they
(32:23):
may be, and they may be the mostchaotic and toxic and
impossible feelings that you'veever felt and you can't imagine
surviving in your own head likethat for 10 minutes, let alone
extended amounts of time.
But we have to.
We have to allow ourselves tofeel every bit of it, because we
(32:46):
don't and we push it away or wetry and sidestep it or ignore
it or bury it it's coming back.
It's going to come back hardand fast and heavy, and it as a
counselor, I'm suggesting it assomebody who's lived with grief
my whole life since I was nineyears old.
(33:06):
And you know, like I said,there are other outlets.
There's talking about it,there's writing about it.
Keep a journal, let yourselfcry when you need to cry.
I mean, I ultimately eventuallystarted talking about it, of
course, and started writingabout it.
It publicly started advocatingfor suicide awareness and
(33:27):
prevention, which is what I donow.
It's what I do seven days aweek, um, probably 25 hours a
day.
At this point I can't getenough of of um.
You know, this community thatneeds so much help.
I can't I I can't break awayfrom it because I want to help
so much.
And the other thing is therapy.
(33:49):
I went back to therapy.
I had, you know, had seen atherapist when I was like in my
twenties, you know when, when Iwasn't sure what I wanted to do
with my life, and you know whenI wanted to talk about my
father's death but I didn't knowit was a suicide.
So I was just talking about thefact that I'd lost my dad.
I hadn't gone to therapy in 30years.
I finally started prioritizingmy own mental health and went
back to therapy about a year anda half ago One of the best
(34:11):
gifts I've ever given to myself.
And granted, we talk about anawful lot more than just my
dad's suicide or my friendStephen's suicide or my cousin
Arnold's suicide.
Talk about a lot of things, butthat's definitely that was the
driver for me going back andhaving someone else to talk to.
Like that, having someone elsewho's not connected with you or
(34:32):
your story or your past, justthis unbiased person, just to
kind of hold that space for youto take it in, that was, that
was definitely life-changing forme.
It it connected me with thingsthat I hadn't been connected
with.
It connected me with thingsthat I hadn't been connected
with.
It helped me connect dots thatI hadn't connected before.
So those are all the thingsthat I would suggest somebody
(34:56):
consider for sure.
Kertia (34:58):
I love that.
That is so helpful.
You know, I appreciate the factthat you know you mentioned,
because we always hear like gethelp, get help, get help.
But I don't think peoplerealize how long you can
literally freeze for you know,for you, yeah, three years.
Lisa (35:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Kertia (35:20):
You can freeze for three years or five years or 10 years
, but there are little thingsyou can do to slowly get
yourself out of that.
For you, you channel thatthrough journaling, right.
You can do that through music,you can do that, and so you can
channel that energy and thatgrief in so many ways that is
(35:42):
unique to who you are, right.
So you as a writer, journaling,of course it makes sense, right
.
But someone else, it might bemusic or you know, they might
say it to someone somewhere else, or they might join a program
or not.
I realized that we often takeso long to even think about
(36:08):
going to therapy.
Lisa (36:09):
Yeah, I did, I did.
I mean it was ridiculous and myhusband kept saying like, why
don't you go?
And it's like, well, I want tomake sure the kids are good and
I want to make sure you're good,and I mean, you know, when
you're especially like in thatposition of being the mom
especially, we're kind of deadlast in everything that we do.
We're focused on every.
You know, you've got two girls,I've got two girls, everybody's
(36:31):
ahead of us in line, you know.
Kertia (36:34):
So true.
Lisa (36:36):
But you know, as far as grief is concerned, like there's
no playbook, there's none.
And we talk about the differentfacets of grief, we talk about
the anger and thedisillusionment and the
bargaining and the sorrow andlike all of those components,
and they're so universal andthey exist, but they're not on a
(36:57):
continuum, it's not linear.
You're over here one day andyou're a hot mess and you can't
function, and for three weeksyou're great, and then you see
something, you hear something orsomething triggers a memory and
you have a grief attack.
I mean, my dad's been gone 45years I still.
(37:18):
I used to mountain climb withmy dad.
That was one of the things thatwe did, a ton, that was one of
the things that we did a ton.
And to this day, when I go upto the White Mountains in New
Hampshire, it's my favoriteplace and it's also the place I
feel closest to him and it'salso the place that stirs the
most emotion in me, and so it'snot unusual for me to be
(37:40):
climbing on a trail and all of asudden, I'll just, I'll just.
You know, the tears will startto flow, and that's grief.
It's what we.
What we have to understand isthat grief is something that we
carry with us.
It's there, it's always there,it's always going to be there.
(38:00):
We don't, we don't finish it,there's no end point to it.
We learn how to live with it,we learn how, we learn how to be
happy again, we learn how to bejoyful again and we learn to
accept the fact that grief isgoing to kind of fit in the
spaces in between and that whenit comes that I wouldn't say we
(38:24):
welcome it because nobody wantsto welcome it, but we accept it
and we accept that when we needto feel that way, we allow
ourselves to feel that way and,you know, we connect, we got to
connect with all of it, all ofthese pieces of our life.
Grief is just one of them.
(38:44):
Grief and loss are, you know,life, death.
They are the two most universalexperiences that we have in
this world and you can't haveone without the other.
So they have to learn tocoexist.
Kertia (38:59):
Absolutely.
You said that so well, yeah,that is so helpful.
Grief is not the linear andit's never done.
You know, I I don't like thisuh thing that a lot of us often
do is just like we expect to getover something you know, or
give ourselves a timeline to getover things, and it just
(39:23):
doesn't work that way.
Lisa (39:24):
No, no, it doesn't.
It doesn't work that way and Ithink once we kind of once, we
kind of accept the fact thatit's out of our control, what
grief looks like for each of us,how we react to it, is unique
(39:45):
to each of us.
Once we accept that, I think itsomehow makes the process a
little easier.
It softens it a little bit.
It makes it, I think, a littlebit less scary.
We all go through it.
We're all afraid of the samekinds of things.
We don't want to lose thepeople we love and we're sad
when we do.
And that's okay because griefis, in my opinion.
(40:11):
There are times, don't get mewrong there are times when I'm
an empath, so I feel all thefeels of the world and life very
deeply.
And there are times I want toshut that off because it gets
really overwhelming, it's hardand it's painful.
And when I get into thosemoments when I'm really missing
(40:32):
my dad or I'm really questioning, like why he decided to do what
he did, all those pieces, and Idon't want to be in that
headspace, I force myself to letmyself be in that headspace
because that's how I feelconnected.
It's another way of loving thepeople that we've lost right.
That's when we feel thoseemotions.
(40:54):
That's love.
It's just love in a differentform, that's all.
Kertia (40:59):
Yeah, I like that Love in a different form, that's all.
Yeah, I like that love in adifferent form.
Lisa, I want to know why shouldwe not refer to people killing
themselves as committing suicide?
Lisa (41:20):
think about the word committed just as a word.
When you think about that, doyou think of it in a negative
way or in a positive way?
Most people think of it.
When you think of committed, doyou think commit crimes?
Do you think commit adultery,do you think commit sin?
That's usually what most peopleassociate with the word
(41:45):
committed.
It's a negative, right, there'sa negative connotation to it.
And when you attach that word tosuicide, which is brought on by
a mental illness which youcan't control, all of a sudden,
now you're kind ofunintentionally stigmatizing
suicide.
You're kind of labeling suicideas a negative act, as an
(42:10):
illegal act, as an immoral act,as a bad thing.
And you know, look, word choiceis everything right, whether
we're talking about suicide ormental illness or whatever it is
that we might be talking about.
The words that we use tocommunicate have an awfully deep
meaning, and when?
(42:33):
Well, look look at the word gay.
Back in the day, the word gaymeant happy.
That's what the word gay meant.
Then it became slang, then itbecame an insult.
You know what I mean.
It changed its meaning.
(42:54):
Suicide has been this thing,this negative thing, for so long
, and then we attached a word toit that made it even more
negative.
We said committing suicide.
So we don't want to say thatanymore, because if we're
working so hard in so many otherways to change the narrative on
(43:14):
mental illness and to stop thestigma that surrounds it, then
we have to really do everythingwe can to change the words that
we use.
Yeah, you know.
Kertia (43:27):
Yeah, yeah, language adds so much dimension to our
experiences.
It's definitely true, we can.
I can easily think of a lot ofwords.
The way that we use it and howwe use it can have.
Wait, wait, wait, we're frozenagain yeah, she's frozen.
Lisa (43:49):
Yeah, oh my god, we're gonna.
We're persevering the shit outof this, though we are, you and
I are good, this is gonna be thebest, the best podcast episode
you've ever recorded, in spiteof the fact, oh my god, I'm
telling you man it's already sogood, though.
Kertia (44:03):
I'm really loving this conversation.
Lisa (44:05):
I am too.
I am too, and I appreciate justlike how ridiculous the
technical behind the scenespiece of it is yeah, it gets it
can.
Kertia (44:15):
The technology can get really nasty sometimes I know, I
know, I know.
Lisa (44:20):
I think I'm going to ask my husband if it is on my end.
I'm going to ask him like Ineed to get a booster, a router
or something different.
Never had problems.
Maybe the universe is payingextra attention to this
conversation.
Kertia (44:35):
Exactly, there's that too yeah.
But yeah, just to get back towhat you were saying, um,
language is so important.
It adds so much nuance to themeanings that are conveyed when
you speak, right, because youcan say one thing and it could
(44:56):
be used in so many ways.
It could carry so much meaning,dependent on the energy behind
what's being said and how it'sbeing said, depending on the
perception of the peopleinvolved.
And sometimes something that wethink is simple or, you know,
(45:17):
not that serious, can be sofilled with fuel for someone
else, right?
So when you speak aboutcommitted suicide, I personally
never thought about that, butwhen you started to talk about
this person committed murder,you kind of see that association
(45:40):
and it's just like it's true.
It now puts it in this bracketwith things that are considered
negative, because when peoplesay you committed an act of like
, the acts that follows isusually negative.
Lisa (45:56):
Right, it's like a sin or treason or murder or you know,
committing a crime.
So isn't it, isn't it wild howdissecting that one word and the
meaning behind it cancompletely cause a mind shift.
Kertia (46:17):
I've hardly come across anyone that has a very neutral
perception of suicide.
They are usually so totallyagainst it.
I've heard people say it's soselfish.
I've heard people say it'scowardly.
(46:38):
I've heard people say it'ssinful.
I've heard people say it'ssinful.
I've hardly ever come acrossanyone that is compassionate,
(46:58):
understanding.
I think I can only think of onecompassionate, understanding,
empathetic way, Right To say Ican see why they would feel like
that.
I could see why they would wantto do that Right, because
sometimes it's just too much,sometimes it's just too heavy
(47:19):
and sometimes it feelsimpossible to hold that all of
that heaviness inside of us.
Lisa (47:25):
Right.
Look, I used to be one of thosepeople when I was very young
and first learned about suicide.
I didn't have any education togo along with it, I just learned
about it and then was kind ofleft to form my own opinions
about it, and so my own beliefsystem was it was selfish, I
wouldn't say cowardly,necessarily, but I definitely
(47:48):
felt like it was a selfish act.
And it was only when I learnedabout my father's suicide I
really started to understandmental illness from a different
perspective, as an illness, justas an illness like any other
illness that you can't control,that needs to be treated, that
needs to be addressed, thatneeds to be validated.
(48:09):
Then it just changed everythingfor me.
It just almost instantaneouslychanged my whole perception.
And then I was like oh right,like I would never hold it
against someone who had cancer.
I would never hold it againstsomeone who God cancer, I would
never hold it against someonewho, god forbid, was hit by a
car and lost their life or, youknow, died of a heart attack.
(48:30):
Like you, you think of it inthose terms and there's no
stigma attached with that.
There's no, there's no negativeconnotation attached to that.
So why should there be withmental illness, which is also
something that's beyond yourcontrol.
It's just more abstract.
You just can't see it in theway that you know.
You know that someone hascancer in their body.
(48:53):
So now I'm at that place and Ihave been for so many years
where it's so crystal clear tome, it's so crystal clear to me
and it's so obvious that thatit's it's something that is
truly beyond a person's control,and that's why we have to
change the way we we talk aboutit.
(49:13):
We have to change the way thatwe classify it.
So the whole mental healthworld as a whole has really kind
of joined together in trying tochange the language.
You know, it certainly is notjust coming from me to use a
different word and to stopsaying committed suicide, but
(49:34):
it's kind of coming fromeverywhere within the community,
because everybody understandsthat once we change the way that
we talk about it, we change theway that we feel about it, we
change the perception around itand that's how we impact things
like stigmas and that's how wechange narratives and that's how
(49:57):
we make mental illness nodifferent than any other kind of
an illness yeah, and then itbecomes.
Kertia (50:04):
It makes it easier.
Not just easier, but I think itmakes us more prone to want to
put the research into it, towant to figure out how we can
help, because we know how muchmoney goes into cancer research
sure, right, and research forheart disease and all these
these chronic or fatal illnesses, but it wasn't like that for
(50:28):
mental health, you know, it'sjust starting to get a lot of
attention.
So you know, changing thelanguage definitely will help
with the perception change andthen the way that we deal with
the thing as a whole.
So I definitely agree and I'mso happy that you pointed that
out to me, because I personallynever thought about it in that
(50:49):
way, and I'm so happy that I nowknow that, because it makes
perfect sense.
It makes perfect sense and thatis definitely something that
I'm going to share.
Lisa (51:00):
I'm so glad.
I'm so glad to hear you saythat and, like I said, you know,
it wasn't long ago that Ilearned about it in the way that
you're learning about it now,and it was like an epiphany for
me, in the same way it now isfor you.
And what did I do?
I went off and shared it withpeople.
What are you going to do?
It's on your podcast.
Now you're sharing it withpeople.
(51:21):
When you're in conversation withpeople.
That's you know.
That's that's the new attitudethat you'll have and that you'll
put out into the world.
And that's how it happens.
It's that you know.
It's that, that grassrootsimpact that these kinds of
conversations have on theseoverall topics and issues.
(51:42):
And and that's that's where thebest kinds of conversations
have on these overall topics andissues, and and that's that's
where the best kinds of changecome from.
Because now, when you're in aconversation with someone that
you, that you know well, thatyou feel close to, and they say
committed suicide, you'll feelempowered to say, hey, look, you
know, I I don't know if you're,if you're aware of you know, I
(52:03):
don't know if you're, if you'reaware of you know the change
that's happened in the worldwhere we don't say that anymore,
and here's why, like you'llfeel, like you can educate
someone else so you know, it's a, it's a, it's a positive
trickle down effect.
Thank you so much for that, ohyou're welcome, you're welcome.
Kertia (52:27):
Trickling down from that , I want to know what lesson did
your personal grief teach youabout yourself.
Lisa (52:31):
Yeah, wow, that's a big question.
It taught me, I think, first andforemost by being vulnerable
with myself and by beingvulnerable out in the rest of
the world, I'm actually helpingmyself and helping the world
(52:56):
around me far more than I amwhen I'm trying to keep it all
together.
By being open, by being honest,by putting my true self or my
true feelings or my trueheadspace out into the world, I
can get what I need far betterthan I ever could by picking and
(53:20):
choosing and curating what Iput out to people around me.
And by doing that, by me beingvulnerable in the world, it's
encouraging other people to bevulnerable back to me, to
themselves, to their communities, and I think that's one of the
(53:46):
most powerful things in theworld that we can do, because if
we don't really know wherewe're all at, if we're not
admitting it to ourselves, ifwe're not admitting it to the
world, then we're not livingauthentically and we're not
helping each other as much as wetruly can.
So I've learned that that'sbecome one of my biggest assets
(54:10):
is to be exactly.
What you see is what you get,and you know now where I stand
in a very, very true way and and, uh, I don't think I can ever
go back to you know, to to notkind of putting it all out there
, because I've seen it benefitme in too many beautiful ways.
Kertia (54:35):
Yeah, I think the problem sometimes is we feel
unsafe being authentic.
Right, it's frightening.
Yeah, A lot of us feel unsafewith our authenticity and
bringing that out to theforefront and just standing in
(54:56):
that and allowing other peopleto witness that, people to
witness that.
And I think when you're able todo that bringing that
vulnerability, talking aboutyour story, about yourself,
about where you stand and beingtrue to that I think when people
can witness you do that, youcan possibly help them to do
(55:20):
that themselves.
Or maybe, if they can't do ittomorrow, maybe even ask
themselves why can't I do that?
Why is it so hard for me to dothat?
Because authenticity comes withso many things.
It's not about just showing theworld about everything that you
are, but you're also helping somuch people, so many people
(55:41):
right In the process.
It's not just about you.
It is about you, but it's somuch bigger than that.
Lisa (55:49):
Yeah, yeah, it is, and and I think, I think, that once we
realize that we need to bemaking decisions that are not
only beneficial for ourselvesbut for the greater population,
that's when, that's when we'llstart to see epic changes in the
(56:10):
world.
When, when it becomes, itbecomes we, not me.
Kertia (56:16):
Yeah.
Lisa (56:17):
And you know, I'm just thinking about even the title of
your podcast, like the otherside of fear, like it is so
frightening to think about whatwill happen if you're honest and
vulnerable, to think about whatwill happen if you're truly
exposed.
What's going to happen if we'retransparent and we tell the
(56:41):
truth and we own our shit.
You know what I mean.
We're worried about what'sgoing to happen.
But then, when you get to theother side of that fear to
borrow your title we see it'snot really as scary as we
thought, we see it's not reallyas hard as we thought.
We see that it impacts so muchmore in such a positive way than
(57:03):
we thought.
So you know it's.
You know it's like they say,the best lessons are the hardest
ones to learn.
And you know the best parts oflife come on the other side of
your comfort zone and this is nodifferent.
Absolutely different absolutely,absolutely.
Kertia (57:24):
I've actually had some of my best, most profound
experiences and insights on theother side of all of my fears,
yep, yeah yeah, I would, I wouldagree, yep same, all the things
that I allowed to hold me backand keep me stuck in this space,
(57:44):
and, you know, thinking that Iwas better off over here than
over there, because over thereit looks scary, I don't know
what's on the other side, Idon't know what's waiting for me
and all the risk that itinvolves it involves.
But when I finally took thestep to challenge myself, to do
(58:07):
it anyway, you know, to talkmyself through it, there are
many things that I do and peopleare just like how do you do it?
You make it look so easy andthey have no idea it's so hard.
And even my partner, when wewere years ago, when we were
just getting to know each otherand I was very open with her, I
said listen, there are thingsthat sometimes it might look
(58:29):
like, oh, she's got this, she'sdoing the thing, she's, she's,
she's flying.
It's just like.
I don't feel like that.
It might look like that to you,but I don't feel that way.
I don't feel that way and youneed to know that, while I am
doing this thing, that that itlooks so easy to you when you're
watching me do it, I'mliterally talking myself through
(58:49):
it, I'm literally coachingmyself through it so that I can
make it through, so that I canmake it all the way to the end
of the line.
Lisa (58:57):
Right, so I know I get it.
I'm sitting here like I'mlaughing because, I get it.
I'm sitting here like I'mlaughing because I get it.
I'm laughing because I'mexactly the same way and I have
those same feelings for sure,because we are so afraid of what
we don't know and it takes anawful lot of guts and a lot,
(59:20):
awful lot of effort to takethose steps, to do those things.
And so I like mad respect foryou because to do the thing,
it's hard enough.
To do something that is just achallenge, it's even harder to
do something that's a challengethat you're afraid of.
Kertia (59:37):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It's so hard, it's so so hardand I don't feel like doing it.
I want to run away, I want tocrawl under some rock somewhere,
but I you know the things thatI'm afraid of.
I've gotten to this statewhereby, instead of running or
(59:59):
freezing, I begin talking myselfthrough it.
Instead of running or freezing,I begin talking myself through
it.
You know, when you're runningthat race and you feel like
you're getting tired and you'relosing breath and your muscles
are aching, and you want to slowdown and you're just
exasperated and you're startingto slow down and there's someone
watching you and they'retelling you go and they're
(01:00:20):
clapping and they're cheeringand it helps to just push you a
little harder that's what I haveto do for myself.
I literally have to talk myselfthrough things sometimes yeah,
you know like, even if I don'tknow what this huge thing is
gonna look like.
Um, let me see this one tinything that I can do today.
If I can do this tiny thing,well, maybe tomorrow I can take
(01:00:42):
on something else.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, and it's not about.
Lisa (01:00:49):
it's not about doing all the things and getting every
single thing right and doingthese big, massive
accomplishments.
It's it's the micro wins, it'sthe, it's the little things.
It doesn't have to be somethingso dramatic.
It can be something so basicand simple and it's all relative
(01:01:14):
.
It's all relative just making aphone call, picking up the
phone and scheduling a doctor'sappointment.
They're uncomfortable with thatand for them to get up the
courage to do that, that's a winand that should be celebrated
Like it's all relative.
It doesn't you know, it doesn'thave to be more than that, but
(01:01:35):
we think that it does, but itreally doesn't Exactly.
Kertia (01:01:40):
I just want to talk about the Trevor Project that
you've been working on that.
You've been working with anddoing some really important work
in the LGBTQ plus communitymental health space.
I'd love to just talk aboutthat and end on that note.
Yeah, of course.
Lisa (01:02:02):
Trevor Project has become such a big and important part of
my life for so many, so many,many different reasons, and
again it was one of those thingsthat was not even really on my
radar until a handful of yearsago, when probably when my
oldest daughter came out incollege.
(01:02:23):
She came out as bisexual incollege.
She was a junior going into hersenior year, and so we had
always been allies of the LGBTQcommunity, but then having a
child who was part of thatcommunity elevated it to a
different place for all of us.
And my daughter, ironically, wasthe person who unknowingly
(01:02:45):
encouraged me to come out.
I came out about two years agoas pansexual, and so now, all of
a sudden, I wasn't an ally, Iwas a member of the community.
My child was a member of thecommunity, and so Trevor Project
, along with so many otherbeautiful LGBTQ communities,
became a part of my life.
And so when I started lookingfor ways to to make more of an
(01:03:09):
impact as a mental healthadvocate, that was a no-brainer
to me because it was like aperfect intersection for me of
the things that I cared mostabout, which was helping people
and, more specifically, helpingthe LGBTQ community.
And so I got involved and wasfortunate enough to get into
their training program theircrisis counselor training
(01:03:31):
program into their trainingprogram, their crisis counselor
training program and spent awhole bunch of months actively
training.
And then I've been now on thecrisis lifeline.
So there's a texting line.
A lot of people don't know thatTrevor Project not only offers a
telephone helpline that's 24hours, 365 days a year but they
(01:03:51):
also have a texting service.
If you don't feel like pickingup the phone and calling talking
to someone, you can do it overtext.
So I trained to be a lifelinecounselor.
So I'm actually on thetelephone and it's been about a
year and a half now that I'vebeen regularly on the phones
every week and it's it has sucha profound impact on my life and
(01:04:13):
on the way that I hold spacefor people and on the way that
I've learned to validate peopleand encourage people to preserve
their agency as a human andtheir own decisions, and I'm
just it's a gift.
Every time I pick up the phoneand someone's on it who is
struggling, you know, I think ofmy dad and I think of my dad
(01:04:38):
not having that and wondering,of course you know, would the
outcome have been different ifmy dad had a Trevor Project to
call or a 98 Lifeline, in hiscase, to call?
But being a part of anorganization that's making this
kind of an impact is, uh, it'sjust a.
(01:05:08):
It's just a very valuable partof the day to day that I live
now and I'm so proud of the workthat I get to do.
I'm so proud of the communitythat I work with, because these
Trevor Project counselors andsupervisors are just some of the
best people and to be part ofthat is really truly something
special.
So I've really just had such apositive experience across the
(01:05:30):
board.
It's just so eye opening.
You just never know whatsomeone's dealing with and
that's the biggest thing.
Like you know, I live here inthe East coast and, um, you know
I live in a quiet littleseaside town and you know it's
pretty affluent and not a ton ofdiversity, unfortunately, and
(01:05:51):
what I've seen, what I've heard,what I've, you know, been able
to experience as a crisiscounselor, it just it blows your
brain wide open in terms ofwhat's really going on in the
world and what people are reallystruggling with, and it creates
a different level of empathythat I don't think I ever had on
that level than.
I do now.
So, yeah, that's.
(01:06:12):
And for those who don't knowwhat the Trevor project is, it's
the largest crisis supporthotline and network for at-risk
LGBTQ youth ages 13 to 24.
Amazing, yeah, yeah, they're um, and they've been around for 25
years, so they've helped a a alot of a lot of people, which is
(01:06:37):
, which is, a beautiful thingyeah, that is so beautiful.
Kertia (01:06:41):
I love that so much and I love that for you and your
daughter amazing, yeah, it's,it's it's been a.
Lisa (01:06:49):
It's been pretty special Both my kids.
It's given me a lot of pridethat my kids have been so proud
of the work that I do with theTrevor Project.
You know it's one thing to be anally or to be a member of a
community or to support acommunity.
It's something entirelydifferent to do it on this level
(01:07:17):
and to be able to give back tothis community that I've grown
to love so much, this LGBTQcommunity on this level and to
know that you know, you, youmaybe have changed the course of
someone's life, that when youknow there have been so many
times where I've spoken tosomeone who is suicidal, I've
gotten someone on the phone whodoes want to take their life and
maybe in the process of tryingto take their life, and that
(01:07:40):
feeling of being able to kind ofdeescalate that person and
create a, you know, a safetyplan for that person and have
that person's mind shift to aplace where they don't feel that
need to end their life anymore,like that's, that's it, that's
all there is.
As far as I'm concerned, that's, that's worth everything.
(01:08:03):
So to be able to do that asoften as I do, it's one of my
favorite things.
Kertia (01:08:11):
You know you don't.
Lisa (01:08:11):
You don't want to say that you don't want people to be in
crisis, but it's one of myfavorite things.
You know you don't.
You don't want to say that youdon't want people to be in
crisis, but it's one of myfavorite things to be able to
help someone who is?
Kertia (01:08:19):
Yeah, yeah, that's amazing.
That's so beautiful.
Lisa, I love that so much, somuch.
And just to wrap up, I know youhave written a few books, even
though we've really focused onmental health.
I want you to tell people wherethey can find your work.
You know, because you've done alot.
Yeah.
Lisa (01:08:41):
I try to keep busy.
For sure.
I, you know, I've had thisweird career, this, this, this
pretty eclectic career path.
It's been so organic when Ikind of look at it from above
and I'm kind of looking down onit.
I do all these different thingswith all these different
platforms and somehow it alljust kind of jives.
(01:09:02):
You know, it all just kind offits together and it's been it's
.
It's been a beautiful littlejourney.
So anybody who wants to findany of the work that I do, the
best place to find it is on mywebsite, so that's just at
lisasugarmancom.
And I just this summer did acomplete rebuild, rebrand
(01:09:25):
whatever you want to call it ofmy website, because now my work
is really focused around mentalhealth advocacy and crisis
counseling and putting resourcesinto the world to help people
with whatever mental healthchallenge they may have Overall
well-being, certainly suicideprevention and awareness.
(01:09:45):
So my website now reallyreflects all of that.
I mean you can find all mybooks and everything on my site.
I've written a column.
I wrote a syndicated column foryears called it Is what it Is,
and I just recently launched anew column with a whole new vibe
, a whole new focus.
It's called we Are who we Areand it's a very much a mental
(01:10:07):
health focused column.
That's on my website as well.
I have a YouTube channel and onmy YouTube channel I have a
fairly new series of shortvideos that I've been putting
out.
I drop them every Monday andit's called the Suicide Survivor
Series and it's really justlike quick little vignettes.
Maybe it's in fact one of theones that I did that that I've
(01:10:32):
gotten a lot of feedback aboutis the one where I talk about
why we shouldn't be sayingcommitted suicide anymore, why I
talk about word choice and thatwhole conversation.
So videos like that, where Italk about grief, I talk about
loss, I talk about depression, Italk about coping strategies,
all the different things, allthe facets of mental illness and
(01:10:52):
mental health and, yeah, it'sall on my website.
And one of the big, big featuresof my site that I'm really
encouraging people to go andcheck out is the mental health
resources page that I have beencurating now for like the past
five or six months, really justtrying to find and capture as
(01:11:13):
many resources for as manydifferent communities as I can.
I don't just want to have aresource page with a bunch of
800 numbers.
I want people in the Asiancommunity and the BIPOC
community and people who aredisabled and veterans and
parents of young children andthe elderly.
I wanted to have a place whereall the resources for all the
(01:11:37):
communities could be found andaccessed very quickly and very
easily.
So if you go on my website, Ihave about 16 different
categories and if you click onany of them like there's grief
resources, um, mindfulnessresources you click on that and
it goes to a separate page whereyou can find all the top
(01:11:58):
resources in that category.
So that's out there too on mywebsite, so people can find that
there as well amazing, love it.
Kertia (01:12:08):
So happy we had this conversation me too.
Lisa (01:12:10):
Me too, like so so grateful that we found each
other and like I feel likeyou're, you're one of those
people.
I feel like I could probablycontinue this conversation for
another two hours, Like not eventhinking twice.
Yeah, yeah.
Kertia (01:12:24):
Yeah, all day.
Yeah, yeah.
Hope you all enjoy thisconversation and I'd love to
hear your thoughts about thephrase committed suicide and how
you think that might have insome way affected your own
perception of suicide.
And if you'd like to get deeperinto this topic or any other
(01:12:47):
topic discussed on this podcast,join us over in our patreon
where we really get into it,because that is what it's all
about Creating a community ofsupport, of shared experiences,
where we can get real with nojudgment, where you are seen,
heard and validated.
(01:13:07):
All right, until next time.
A few months back I spoke with Lisa Sugarman, an
author, columnist and three-timesurvivor of suicide loss, and
she highlighted why we shouldrefrain from using the phrase
committed suicide in momentswhen we are attempting to bring
light to loss by suicide.
And this is just a reminder ofhow powerful words are, because
(00:24):
not only do they help us tocreate and convey meanings, but
they also, in turn, affect andreflect the attitudes we have
towards the things we perceiveand talk about in our society.
So the language we usedefinitely has the power to
shape our ideas and feelingsabout anything.
(00:45):
So a phrase like committedsuicide likens the act itself to
something that is taboo,something that is socially
unacceptable and frowned upon.
Because it's very common thatwhenever we've used the term
committed in a sentence todescribe the actions of a person
, it's usually because they'vedone something very wrong, like
(01:09):
committed murder, for example.
And unfortunately we've usedthis type of language to
describe suicide for such a longtime, which, in its essence,
criminalizes it.
It criminalizes something thatreally should be viewed as a
symptom of an illness.
So we definitely want to changethe language around suicide
(01:33):
because, in effect, it helps tochange the way we think about it
, the way we feel about it, sothat we can, at large, begin to
change the perception of it.
That will consequently impactthe stigma associated with
suicide.
Just jumping from where we leftoff, the last time we spoke,
(02:01):
you mentioned having lostmultiple people to suicide, and
that is so hard.
I can't even imagine what it islike dealing with that, but I
want to know how it has affectedyour journey personally.
Lisa (02:17):
So the people I've lost.
They're obviously people whoare very, very close to me.
I mean, you can't get anycloser than having your father
die by suicide.
I had my cousin who you knowlived a 10th of a mile up the
street from me growing up.
(02:38):
He was not quite 10 years olderthan I was, so you know he was
kind of in a different place inlife than I was in.
So our worlds, while theycollided a lot in those family
settings, didn't collide a lotbecause he was so much older.
But he lived right around thecorner and his death and his
(02:58):
suicide was really the firstexperience that I had ever had
with loss and it was the firstexperience I think I had ever
had with suicide.
And my parents were very open ina very age appropriate way for
me, explaining to me that youknow that, that he, that he had
an illness that we couldn't seeand that, um, you know that that
(03:23):
he took his own life and, andso that was really kind of where
it ended.
And that kind of left me toform my own opinions about
suicide, my own belief systemsand I did for a very long time
kind of lean very heavily intothe idea that suicide was a very
selfish act and that came fromnowhere else but inside my own
(03:44):
heart and in my own mind and Ikind of carried that along and
then lost my father the yearafter my cousin passed away.
But we didn't know that myfather's death was a suicide.
I was always told that myfather had had a heart attack
and for 35 years that was thestory that I believed and I had
no reason to question it.
His mental illness was veryhidden, hidden from everybody,
(04:09):
and it wasn't until I was 45.
So my father passed away when hewas 45.
I learned when I was 45, thatmy father had died by suicide
and then, only just less thanthree years ago, one of our
closest childhood friends who,again, we never knew he was
struggling he took his life.
So there have been thesesuicides in my life that have
(04:35):
affected me so profoundly atsuch different points in my life
, in my life, and it's it's onlyin in really kind of
discovering my dad's suicide andkind of having that rewrite my
history and rewrite my memoriesand and create this need to
(04:56):
grieve everything all over againthat that just kind of set me
on a different path.
I mean only a matter of two orthree years ago, I was doing
very different work in the world.
I was putting out very differentkinds of content, having very
different kinds of podcastinterviews.
I was a parenting author.
I'd written a bunch ofparenting books.
I was very embedded in thatparenting space and talking to
(05:19):
parents about that work-lifebalance and the family unit and
raising kids and the way that myfather's suicide and my friend
and my cousin's suicidesimpacted my life was just to
change course completely fromtalking about raising kids to
talking about mental health andmental illness and how do we
(05:41):
stop that stigma?
So that's kind of the shortversion of my journey from there
to here.
Kertia (05:48):
Yeah, it's so hard to identify when the people we love
the most are struggling,because oftentimes they often
are the ones that seems the mostoutwardly happy, or you know
they always have this big smileon their faces and I can say
that truthfully from my ownexperience I haven't personally
(06:43):
experienced someone killingthemselves due to or who.
I would just say that they justseem so outwardly bubbly and
they're always smiling andthey're talking to everyone and
they're so extroverted and youknow like they seem like they're
so confident.
When you look at that guy, whenhe's out and he's doing his
(07:04):
thing, you're just like geez,like I wish I could be like that
.
You know someone I knew theykind of got to their breaking
(07:27):
point and luckily they reachedout to me and I was able to have
that conversation.
But it was just reallyastounding to me because I had
no idea that this person wasreally struggling, right.
So it's so hard and I'm justsaying that to say that, you
know, there's also that stigmathat we have.
(07:50):
Although, you know, in societywe're just beginning to now
really acknowledging mentalhealth and everything
surrounding that, I think thatthere's also this level of fear
as well, especially when itcomes to the people around you,
right, when it comes to familyand friends.
(08:10):
I think sometimes we might knowsomeone is struggling.
There are just so many levelsto it, because sometimes we know
someone is struggling and wewant to help.
But sometimes do you think thatthere's just this fear of a
family member or a close friendjust feeling helpless.
You know, helpless from notknowing how to deal with a
situation whereby, when someoneyou love, they're experiencing
(08:32):
suicidal ideation or maybe justa fear of doing or saying the
wrong thing that could probablypossibly sink the person deeper
into that dark space.
You know like some level offear whereby you feel like
you're not.
You want to help but you're notquite equipped to help in the
(08:55):
way that they need, and so it'sjust like you want to help but
you're not reaching out.
You want to help but you don'twant to do or say too much.
It's just like there's just somany levels to it and I want to
know what you think about that.
Lisa (09:10):
Yeah, I'm listening to you and my mind is going 1000 miles
an hour because I'm thinking ofall the different ways that I
want to respond to that.
Because it's so.
It's so true that people getalmost debilitated by their fear
of making that mistake, thatcatastrophic mistake that causes
(09:30):
the person they're worriedabout to do something harmful.
And I think that, first of all,that fear definitely exists,
1000%.
I think that that fear existsas much on the person who's
struggling side as it does onthe person who wants to help
(09:50):
side.
And I'll tell you why.
I think that in a lot of cases,even though we're in a world
that's far more accepting ofmental illness now and has far
more mainstream resources,people are still afraid to say
I'm struggling, I'm in crisis,I'm suffering because they don't
know what's going to happen.
(10:11):
They're worried that they'regoing to be institutionalized.
They're worried that they'regoing to be stigmatized.
They're worried that they'regoing to lose their job or
they're going to lose theirpartner or the optics of who
they are in the world willchange.
So there's that whole bucket offear which prevents a lot of
(10:31):
people from saying like, hey,I'm over here and I'm really
struggling, help me.
Then you've also got the peopleyou're talking about, who are
the people who are seeingsomeone struggle, who want to do
something and want to be alifeline for that person and
they're petrified because theydon't know how to approach that
(10:52):
person.
And what I can say is this andI say this as a crisis counselor
who is on the phone all thetime, helping to, on the phone
all the time, helping tode-escalate people who may be
contemplating suicide orcontemplating harming themselves
or contemplating harmingsomeone else, or someone who is
(11:16):
just isolated and alone orfeeling depressed.
People just want to be heard,they want to be validated, they
want to be able to express howthey feel and have someone
receive it and have someone hearthem and not judge them and
(11:36):
just hold that space for them.
So what I can tell you isanyone who is in a situation
where they're concerned about afriend or concerned about a
loved one be direct, be direct.
I say this all the time andit's not just me saying it.
Any counselor, any crisiscounselor, any therapist, any
(12:00):
emergency response personnelwill tell you the same thing.
Ask the person directly usingvery basic language Are you okay
?
Are you thinking of killingyourself?
Are you thinking of harmingyourself?
Are you thinking of harmingsomeone else if you know that
their issue is with anotherperson?
By asking someone directly,using that kind of language even
(12:22):
though it seems like it mightbe blunt, even though it seems
really scary to ask someone whomight be suicidal if they want
to kill themselves it willactually have a very different
impact on that person than youmight think.
People think that by askingsomeone directly it's going to
cause that person to harmthemselves.
It is the absolute opposite.
By asking someone outright ifthey're thinking of hurting
(12:45):
themselves, you're validatingwhat they're feeling.
You're saying I see you, I hearyou, I understand that you're
in pain.
How can I help?
What can I do?
And there's a certain kind of Idon't.
I don't know what the wordwould be to use for this, but
there's like a certain qualityto being validated that puts
(13:08):
someone at ease.
Asking directly is going toactually reduce the risk of
someone's suicide.
So I know, while people mightbe afraid it's, the best thing
you can possibly do for someoneis to hold space for them and
then to just ask them if they'reokay.
Kertia (13:29):
Yeah, it's so easy to think that you would probably
offend a person or cause themsome level of distress by being
so direct, asking are you okay?
Are you thinking about killingyourself, something like that.
I think a lot of people arejust afraid.
You kind of don't know what todo, and I think another part of
(13:53):
it is sometimes you're probablyafraid of hearing the response.
Right, like, yeah, it'simportant for validating the
person and how they're feeling.
(14:14):
But on the other side of it, Ithink a lot of us has a problem
with acknowledging these heavythings.
You know, because a lot of us,even for someone who is
generally okay not to generalize, but generally what you would
consider just okay right, ofcourse they go through their own
struggles, they have their owndifficulties and challenges and
things like that, but nothingthat has yet caused them to
(14:36):
experience that level of mentalanguish that has resulted in
some level of suicidal ideation.
Someone who is generally okaystill usually has a problem with
connecting with your ownfeelings and your own emotions
and even just communicatingtheir own feelings and emotions
(14:58):
to their loved ones, to theirspouse, to their children, to
their family members.
Right, this is why we have somuch conflict happening all the
time, right, it's so hard for uson a normal day to sit with our
feelings, acknowledge them andto get our feelings out to you
know, even acknowledge our kids'feelings.
You say that you have somebooks on parenting, right, and
(15:22):
I'm sure, as a parent, you knowlike it's hard.
It's hard sometimes because forme, I'm a mom as well, of two
girls, and when I was new tomotherhood, there are just some
things that happened that Ididn't know how to deal with it.
I really didn't.
I am no longer in that space,but you know what it's like when
(15:44):
you have no idea how to respondto the situation.
You feel like you're just goingcrazy.
Sometimes it's hard toacknowledge your own child's
feelings, right, as a parent,right?
So how does that play out now,when you're dealing with a
situation that is so heavy, thatis so difficult to talk about,
(16:08):
that no one really spoke aboutit for so many years, and now
it's just yesterday that westarted to acknowledge this
thing.
You know, there has been somuch stigma previously attached
to it and there's still somelevel of stigma, depending on
which culture you come from,right, because culture has a
(16:28):
whole different dimension to itas well.
Lisa (16:31):
It does, you're right.
Kertia (16:33):
There's that level where it's just like, yeah, we need
to be direct, but if on aregular day we can't do that
with our kids, we can't do thatwith our partners, how do we do
that with someone that's incrisis?
Lisa (16:44):
we can't do that with our partners?
How do we do that with someonethat's in crisis?
Yeah, it's a hard one.
It's a really hard one and,look, being vulnerable is a
really scary place to be, but itcan also be an incredibly
liberating and empowering placeto be, and I'm thinking in terms
(17:10):
of what you just said aboutwell, what do I do if someone
confides in me that they aresuicidal, like I ask them the
question.
Kertia (17:22):
Whoops, we are experiencing some technical
difficulties.
Bear with me, guys.
Lisa (17:32):
I think that people are afraid of that.
I think people are afraid ofbeing in that position, like you
said a few minutes ago.
Well, what happens when someoneanswers the question, yes, I am
feeling suicidal or yes, I dowant to harm someone else, you
know that opens up a whole boxof challenges and that's, you
(17:56):
know.
That's a very understandablething to be afraid of.
But at the same time, we'reonly a single person with the
capacity to hear what someone issaying, take it in, validate it
, maybe try and help de-escalatethem by giving them some
options would be benefited bykeeping the 988 number, the 988
(18:27):
crisis and suicide hotlinenumber, like right here, right
in their head in their phone,kind of figuratively in their
pocket, all the time.
Because we don't all have allthe answers, we don't all know
all the resources, we can't allbe expected to navigate someone
else's pain and the depth ofsomeone else's struggle or
(18:51):
illness.
We and you can give that tosomeone as a resource.
That's a place where someonecan go to continue the
(19:12):
conversation, to find theappropriate resources, to maybe
discover some coping strategiesor a safety plan, and it's a way
that you can lead the personwho's struggling in a more
positive direction withouthaving to have all the answers
yourself.
(19:32):
So I think I think that foranybody listening who's fearful
of kind of opening up, that youknow that box of challenges with
someone.
Don't be afraid of that.
Just know that the only job youhave is to give that helpline
(19:54):
number to the person in crisis,because that's the help they
need in that moment.
Kertia (20:00):
That's a really good tip .
That is such a good tip becausewe are not all equipped to
handle.
To handle that, you know, and alot of us we struggle with just
dealing with our own stuff andthe stuff that happens with our
own families and kids.
And even when it's a familymember, you still have that fear
(20:23):
, you still have that thatanxiety about getting involved
or you want to get involved, buthow deep should I be involved?
You know, and you stillexperience that, even when it's
someone close to you.
So, um, having lost your dad, Ican't imagine how your own mom
even navigated her spouse goingthrough that.
Lisa (20:45):
Well, she didn't know.
She didn't know.
My mother had no idea that myfather was struggling, none at
all.
What my mother did, navigate byherself, completely by herself,
was the secret that he hadtaken his life.
So when he died and I was 10and it 1978, and where was she
(21:07):
going to go for copingstrategies and resources for
suicide?
They didn't exist, not the waythey do now.
So my mom, in that moment, madethat decision to tell me a
different story, to keep me fromthe added pain of knowing that
his death was a suicide.
(21:28):
So she had.
She had that secret in her headand in her heart for 35 years.
That's, that's the thing shedealt with.
She didn't know that he wasmentally ill.
Because, if you go all the wayback to the beginning of our
conversation, yours and mine.
We talked about um, about howskilled a lot of people are with
(21:48):
mental illness at keeping ithidden.
My dad was that person.
My dad was the guy that youwould see out in the world or
out you know, out and about, whohad the big smile on his face,
who was so charming and so kindand so loving, and you would
have no idea what was going onunder the surface.
(22:11):
Yeah, it goes.
You know people, everybody hastheir own coping strategies and
that's why it's so tough to knowwhen someone is hurting.
I mean, you look at all ofthese celebrities who have taken
their lives and and we see themmore often.
(22:31):
Because we see them and knowabout them more often, because
obviously they're in the publiceye.
So we learn about their storiesand you think, my God, like how
how could they have been so low?
Look at their life, look at allthey had.
How could they have been so low?
Look at their life, look at allthey had, look at all they did.
You know, mental illnessdoesn't discriminate.
(22:54):
It's equal opportunity as faras illnesses go.
It does not matter who you areor what successes you've had, or
how much money you've got.
None of that stuff matters, andbecause of that it can impact
anyone, which is why one of thethings that I do an awful lot
about talking about now is beingvulnerable, and there are two
(23:19):
things that I talk a ton about.
One is that power ofvulnerability and how it can
lead us to the help that wereally need, because we're being
honest with what's going on inour minds.
And the other thing isstorytelling.
That's why I tell the story ofmy dad's suicide whenever I can,
(23:43):
because it's a simple act andit's one of the oldest tools
we've got.
We did that before we hadanything else.
We told stories right, andthat's the thing that creates
community.
That's the thing that createshope.
It creates a connection, anunderstanding, a validation.
(24:04):
You know you can bond withsomeone who has had a similar
experience.
Look at Anderson Cooper fromCNN.
He's his new podcast, all thereIs.
You know Anderson talk aboutgetting vulnerable.
You know he lost his brother tosuicide, his mother passed away
, he lost his father.
I mean, he's had it over andover and over again and he's out
(24:28):
there sharing his story and youthink about all the people who
that story resonates with andthat empowers those people to
start sharing.
So it's a total trickle down,and that's how we do it.
Kertia (25:08):
You're so right on that.
Storytelling is so importantbecause one of those key things
that you can do that showspeople that you're not alone,
that your suffering isn't justunique to them alone, that there
are are in that darkness.
The whole fallacy of it all isthat you are the only person in
the world that feels the depthof this darkness, that can feel
this way, that you're the onlyperson and something must be
wrong with you.
You know what I mean.
Like no one can understand, noone can feel this, no one else
(25:30):
can possibly know what you'regoing through.
And that's pretty much whathappens when you're in that dark
space.
You feel alone, it's isolatingand you're suffering so much you
can't think that someone elsehas possibly went through the
same thing, went as deep and asdark as you did and came out of
(25:52):
it and survived it.
You know it's so hard to thinkabout that when you're in that
mind frame.
So storytelling is very, veryimportant to show people that
you're not alone.
Very, very important to showpeople that you're not alone, um
, other people are suffering asmuch as they have, or as much as
(26:13):
they currently are.
There's nothing wrong with them, they're not broken, they're
not flawed, um, and that theycan get help.
That is possible.
I know we don't have all theanswers and you can't say
anything is ever 100%.
And just to show that there areother possibilities out there,
(26:34):
yeah, also, just like what wewere speaking about, just the
fear of people intervening,whether you're a friend or a
family.
Don't be afraid.
Don't be afraid to intervene.
Don't be afraid to intervene,don't be afraid to speak up,
don't be afraid to ask the hardquestions and to have the
difficult conversations, becauseit's that fear that has held
(26:58):
you back from possibly helpingsomeone, from possibly
validating someone, frompossibly making them aware that
they're being seen that someonesees them, so yeah, In terms of
crisis intervention.
Lisa (27:16):
That's a huge piece of that equation.
Is that validating of someone'sfeelings?
Because, just like you said,people get so isolated in their
own headspace and they're sobogged down by whatever it is
that's affecting them that theyget so clouded and they can't
(27:40):
share it because they don'tthink they deserve the help.
They don't think their problemwarrants the help there.
I mean, like I said, mentalillness is a tricky bitch.
It's just, you know, it's, it'sjust, um, it's very deceiving
and it's very easy to become avictim of that type of toxic
(28:06):
thinking.
When you are the only one who'slocked in your own head, it's
when you start to put it outinto the world.
Not only do you get thatvalidation back, not only do you
feel seen and you feel heard,but when someone else, when you
talk to someone and you find out, oh my God, you were, you're
really feeling that too, oryou've gone through that too,
not only is that connectionincredibly valuable, but then
(28:30):
maybe, maybe you went throughsomething similar and I can
benefit from whatever youmight've done to get yourself
out of it.
We benefit from each other'sexperiences, we benefit from
each other's strategies and fromeach other's successes.
So all those things are kind ofbyproducts of storytelling and
(28:55):
of community and connection, andthat's where the real power is,
I think.
Kertia (29:01):
Absolutely, you're absolutely correct on that.
You said that so well.
I love it.
No, thank you.
So it would have been hard foryou to truly see her process in
(29:26):
this, in the truth of what herprocess really was.
So I'm aware of that.
But just having that loss whenyou came to that realization of
how your dad really died, howwould you advise someone to what
I say to seek help?
(29:46):
I'm not sure.
But what is the next step?
I wouldn't say to seek help,because you know, sometimes when
you experience something thattragic, you kind of just freeze,
right.
It takes so long for you toeven wrap your head around
what's happening, right.
So sometimes you kind of justfreeze and you're kind of stuck
(30:09):
in that frozen space for a while.
What could you advise from justfrom your personal experience
or from the counseling that youdo?
Lisa (30:21):
Well, I mean first of all for me in my case.
So I found out about myfather's suicide, so he died 45
years ago.
It was.
It was a whole new kind ofgrief, and suicide grief is so
(30:52):
nuanced, it's so different.
I mean not to minimize anyother kind of grief, because
every kind of grief is is sochallenging in itself.
Suicide is just is different.
There are different componentsthat don't exist in other types
of loss and for a long time thefirst few years, I would say I,
(31:15):
just like my mother, was theonly one who knew.
I told my husband I also havetwo daughters who are grown
women now.
They were teenagers at the timeand I didn't feel emotionally
ready to talk about it, evenwith my daughters.
For a number of years I satwith it.
I sat with it for probablythree years, cried myself to
(31:35):
sleep for three years life.
And then I was someone verydifferent.
When the bedroom door closed atnight and I put the girls to
sleep and I would climb into bedand I would cry and I did that
for three years, I would wake upsobbing in the middle of the
night out of a deep sleep and Iwent through that and I sat in
(32:00):
that and I felt that and I do alot of journaling, that's just
part of my own daily practice,and I was kind of putting it all
there.
This is before I was talkingabout it or writing about it
publicly, and then like, littleby little for me in my case,
what I would recommend anybodydo first and foremost, you just
have to somehow manage to sit inthose feelings, whatever they
(32:23):
may be, and they may be the mostchaotic and toxic and
impossible feelings that you'veever felt and you can't imagine
surviving in your own head likethat for 10 minutes, let alone
extended amounts of time.
But we have to.
We have to allow ourselves tofeel every bit of it, because we
(32:46):
don't and we push it away or wetry and sidestep it or ignore
it or bury it it's coming back.
It's going to come back hardand fast and heavy, and it as a
counselor, I'm suggesting it assomebody who's lived with grief
my whole life since I was nineyears old.
(33:06):
And you know, like I said,there are other outlets.
There's talking about it,there's writing about it.
Keep a journal, let yourselfcry when you need to cry.
I mean, I ultimately eventuallystarted talking about it, of
course, and started writingabout it.
It publicly started advocatingfor suicide awareness and
(33:27):
prevention, which is what I donow.
It's what I do seven days aweek, um, probably 25 hours a
day.
At this point I can't getenough of of um.
You know, this community thatneeds so much help.
I can't I I can't break awayfrom it because I want to help
so much.
And the other thing is therapy.
(33:49):
I went back to therapy.
I had, you know, had seen atherapist when I was like in my
twenties, you know when, when Iwasn't sure what I wanted to do
with my life, and you know whenI wanted to talk about my
father's death but I didn't knowit was a suicide.
So I was just talking about thefact that I'd lost my dad.
I hadn't gone to therapy in 30years.
I finally started prioritizingmy own mental health and went
back to therapy about a year anda half ago One of the best
(34:11):
gifts I've ever given to myself.
And granted, we talk about anawful lot more than just my
dad's suicide or my friendStephen's suicide or my cousin
Arnold's suicide.
Talk about a lot of things, butthat's definitely that was the
driver for me going back andhaving someone else to talk to.
Like that, having someone elsewho's not connected with you or
(34:32):
your story or your past, justthis unbiased person, just to
kind of hold that space for youto take it in, that was, that
was definitely life-changing forme.
It it connected me with thingsthat I hadn't been connected
with.
It connected me with thingsthat I hadn't been connected
with.
It helped me connect dots thatI hadn't connected before.
So those are all the thingsthat I would suggest somebody
(34:56):
consider for sure.
Kertia (34:58):
I love that.
That is so helpful.
You know, I appreciate the factthat you know you mentioned,
because we always hear like gethelp, get help, get help.
But I don't think peoplerealize how long you can
literally freeze for you know,for you, yeah, three years.
Lisa (35:19):
Yeah, yeah.
Kertia (35:20):
You can freeze for three years or five years or 10 years
, but there are little thingsyou can do to slowly get
yourself out of that.
For you, you channel thatthrough journaling, right.
You can do that through music,you can do that, and so you can
channel that energy and thatgrief in so many ways that is
(35:42):
unique to who you are, right.
So you as a writer, journaling,of course it makes sense, right
.
But someone else, it might bemusic or you know, they might
say it to someone somewhere else, or they might join a program
or not.
I realized that we often takeso long to even think about
(36:08):
going to therapy.
Lisa (36:09):
Yeah, I did, I did.
I mean it was ridiculous and myhusband kept saying like, why
don't you go?
And it's like, well, I want tomake sure the kids are good and
I want to make sure you're good,and I mean, you know, when
you're especially like in thatposition of being the mom
especially, we're kind of deadlast in everything that we do.
We're focused on every.
You know, you've got two girls,I've got two girls, everybody's
(36:31):
ahead of us in line, you know.
Kertia (36:34):
So true.
Lisa (36:36):
But you know, as far as grief is concerned, like there's
no playbook, there's none.
And we talk about the differentfacets of grief, we talk about
the anger and thedisillusionment and the
bargaining and the sorrow andlike all of those components,
and they're so universal andthey exist, but they're not on a
(36:57):
continuum, it's not linear.
You're over here one day andyou're a hot mess and you can't
function, and for three weeksyou're great, and then you see
something, you hear something orsomething triggers a memory and
you have a grief attack.
I mean, my dad's been gone 45years I still.
(37:18):
I used to mountain climb withmy dad.
That was one of the things thatwe did, a ton, that was one of
the things that we did a ton.
And to this day, when I go upto the White Mountains in New
Hampshire, it's my favoriteplace and it's also the place I
feel closest to him and it'salso the place that stirs the
most emotion in me, and so it'snot unusual for me to be
(37:40):
climbing on a trail and all of asudden, I'll just, I'll just.
You know, the tears will startto flow, and that's grief.
It's what we.
What we have to understand isthat grief is something that we
carry with us.
It's there, it's always there,it's always going to be there.
(38:00):
We don't, we don't finish it,there's no end point to it.
We learn how to live with it,we learn how, we learn how to be
happy again, we learn how to bejoyful again and we learn to
accept the fact that grief isgoing to kind of fit in the
spaces in between and that whenit comes that I wouldn't say we
(38:24):
welcome it because nobody wantsto welcome it, but we accept it
and we accept that when we needto feel that way, we allow
ourselves to feel that way and,you know, we connect, we got to
connect with all of it, all ofthese pieces of our life.
Grief is just one of them.
(38:44):
Grief and loss are, you know,life, death.
They are the two most universalexperiences that we have in
this world and you can't haveone without the other.
So they have to learn tocoexist.
Kertia (38:59):
Absolutely.
You said that so well, yeah,that is so helpful.
Grief is not the linear andit's never done.
You know, I I don't like thisuh thing that a lot of us often
do is just like we expect to getover something you know, or
give ourselves a timeline to getover things, and it just
(39:23):
doesn't work that way.
Lisa (39:24):
No, no, it doesn't.
It doesn't work that way and Ithink once we kind of once, we
kind of accept the fact thatit's out of our control, what
grief looks like for each of us,how we react to it, is unique
(39:45):
to each of us.
Once we accept that, I think itsomehow makes the process a
little easier.
It softens it a little bit.
It makes it, I think, a littlebit less scary.
We all go through it.
We're all afraid of the samekinds of things.
We don't want to lose thepeople we love and we're sad
when we do.
And that's okay because griefis, in my opinion.
(40:11):
There are times, don't get mewrong there are times when I'm
an empath, so I feel all thefeels of the world and life very
deeply.
And there are times I want toshut that off because it gets
really overwhelming, it's hardand it's painful.
And when I get into thosemoments when I'm really missing
(40:32):
my dad or I'm really questioning, like why he decided to do what
he did, all those pieces, and Idon't want to be in that
headspace, I force myself to letmyself be in that headspace
because that's how I feelconnected.
It's another way of loving thepeople that we've lost right.
That's when we feel thoseemotions.
(40:54):
That's love.
It's just love in a differentform, that's all.
Kertia (40:59):
Yeah, I like that Love in a different form, that's all.
Yeah, I like that love in adifferent form.
Lisa, I want to know why shouldwe not refer to people killing
themselves as committing suicide?
Lisa (41:20):
think about the word committed just as a word.
When you think about that, doyou think of it in a negative
way or in a positive way?
Most people think of it.
When you think of committed, doyou think commit crimes?
Do you think commit adultery,do you think commit sin?
That's usually what most peopleassociate with the word
(41:45):
committed.
It's a negative, right, there'sa negative connotation to it.
And when you attach that word tosuicide, which is brought on by
a mental illness which youcan't control, all of a sudden,
now you're kind ofunintentionally stigmatizing
suicide.
You're kind of labeling suicideas a negative act, as an
(42:10):
illegal act, as an immoral act,as a bad thing.
And you know, look, word choiceis everything right, whether
we're talking about suicide ormental illness or whatever it is
that we might be talking about.
The words that we use tocommunicate have an awfully deep
meaning, and when?
(42:33):
Well, look look at the word gay.
Back in the day, the word gaymeant happy.
That's what the word gay meant.
Then it became slang, then itbecame an insult.
You know what I mean.
It changed its meaning.
(42:54):
Suicide has been this thing,this negative thing, for so long
, and then we attached a word toit that made it even more
negative.
We said committing suicide.
So we don't want to say thatanymore, because if we're
working so hard in so many otherways to change the narrative on
(43:14):
mental illness and to stop thestigma that surrounds it, then
we have to really do everythingwe can to change the words that
we use.
Yeah, you know.
Kertia (43:27):
Yeah, yeah, language adds so much dimension to our
experiences.
It's definitely true, we can.
I can easily think of a lot ofwords.
The way that we use it and howwe use it can have.
Wait, wait, wait, we're frozenagain yeah, she's frozen.
Lisa (43:49):
Yeah, oh my god, we're gonna.
We're persevering the shit outof this, though we are, you and
I are good, this is gonna be thebest, the best podcast episode
you've ever recorded, in spiteof the fact, oh my god, I'm
telling you man it's already sogood, though.
Kertia (44:03):
I'm really loving this conversation.
Lisa (44:05):
I am too.
I am too, and I appreciate justlike how ridiculous the
technical behind the scenespiece of it is yeah, it gets it
can.
Kertia (44:15):
The technology can get really nasty sometimes I know, I
know, I know.
Lisa (44:20):
I think I'm going to ask my husband if it is on my end.
I'm going to ask him like Ineed to get a booster, a router
or something different.
Never had problems.
Maybe the universe is payingextra attention to this
conversation.
Kertia (44:35):
Exactly, there's that too yeah.
But yeah, just to get back towhat you were saying, um,
language is so important.
It adds so much nuance to themeanings that are conveyed when
you speak, right, because youcan say one thing and it could
(44:56):
be used in so many ways.
It could carry so much meaning,dependent on the energy behind
what's being said and how it'sbeing said, depending on the
perception of the peopleinvolved.
And sometimes something that wethink is simple or, you know,
(45:17):
not that serious, can be sofilled with fuel for someone
else, right?
So when you speak aboutcommitted suicide, I personally
never thought about that, butwhen you started to talk about
this person committed murder,you kind of see that association
(45:40):
and it's just like it's true.
It now puts it in this bracketwith things that are considered
negative, because when peoplesay you committed an act of like
, the acts that follows isusually negative.
Lisa (45:56):
Right, it's like a sin or treason or murder or you know,
committing a crime.
So isn't it, isn't it wild howdissecting that one word and the
meaning behind it cancompletely cause a mind shift.
Kertia (46:17):
I've hardly come across anyone that has a very neutral
perception of suicide.
They are usually so totallyagainst it.
I've heard people say it's soselfish.
I've heard people say it'scowardly.
(46:38):
I've heard people say it'ssinful.
I've heard people say it'ssinful.
I've hardly ever come acrossanyone that is compassionate,
(46:58):
understanding.
I think I can only think of onecompassionate, understanding,
empathetic way, Right To say Ican see why they would feel like
that.
I could see why they would wantto do that Right, because
sometimes it's just too much,sometimes it's just too heavy
(47:19):
and sometimes it feelsimpossible to hold that all of
that heaviness inside of us.
Lisa (47:25):
Right.
Look, I used to be one of thosepeople when I was very young
and first learned about suicide.
I didn't have any education togo along with it, I just learned
about it and then was kind ofleft to form my own opinions
about it, and so my own beliefsystem was it was selfish, I
wouldn't say cowardly,necessarily, but I definitely
(47:48):
felt like it was a selfish act.
And it was only when I learnedabout my father's suicide I
really started to understandmental illness from a different
perspective, as an illness, justas an illness like any other
illness that you can't control,that needs to be treated, that
needs to be addressed, thatneeds to be validated.
(48:09):
Then it just changed everythingfor me.
It just almost instantaneouslychanged my whole perception.
And then I was like oh right,like I would never hold it
against someone who had cancer.
I would never hold it againstsomeone who God cancer, I would
never hold it against someonewho, god forbid, was hit by a
car and lost their life or, youknow, died of a heart attack.
(48:30):
Like you, you think of it inthose terms and there's no
stigma attached with that.
There's no, there's no negativeconnotation attached to that.
So why should there be withmental illness, which is also
something that's beyond yourcontrol.
It's just more abstract.
You just can't see it in theway that you know.
You know that someone hascancer in their body.
(48:53):
So now I'm at that place and Ihave been for so many years
where it's so crystal clear tome, it's so crystal clear to me
and it's so obvious that thatit's it's something that is
truly beyond a person's control,and that's why we have to
change the way we we talk aboutit.
(49:13):
We have to change the way thatwe classify it.
So the whole mental healthworld as a whole has really kind
of joined together in trying tochange the language.
You know, it certainly is notjust coming from me to use a
different word and to stopsaying committed suicide, but
(49:34):
it's kind of coming fromeverywhere within the community,
because everybody understandsthat once we change the way that
we talk about it, we change theway that we feel about it, we
change the perception around itand that's how we impact things
like stigmas and that's how wechange narratives and that's how
(49:57):
we make mental illness nodifferent than any other kind of
an illness yeah, and then itbecomes.
Kertia (50:04):
It makes it easier.
Not just easier, but I think itmakes us more prone to want to
put the research into it, towant to figure out how we can
help, because we know how muchmoney goes into cancer research
sure, right, and research forheart disease and all these
these chronic or fatal illnesses, but it wasn't like that for
(50:28):
mental health, you know, it'sjust starting to get a lot of
attention.
So you know, changing thelanguage definitely will help
with the perception change andthen the way that we deal with
the thing as a whole.
So I definitely agree and I'mso happy that you pointed that
out to me, because I personallynever thought about it in that
(50:49):
way, and I'm so happy that I nowknow that, because it makes
perfect sense.
It makes perfect sense and thatis definitely something that
I'm going to share.
Lisa (51:00):
I'm so glad.
I'm so glad to hear you saythat and, like I said, you know,
it wasn't long ago that Ilearned about it in the way that
you're learning about it now,and it was like an epiphany for
me, in the same way it now isfor you.
And what did I do?
I went off and shared it withpeople.
What are you going to do?
It's on your podcast.
Now you're sharing it withpeople.
(51:21):
When you're in conversation withpeople.
That's you know.
That's that's the new attitudethat you'll have and that you'll
put out into the world.
And that's how it happens.
It's that you know.
It's that, that grassrootsimpact that these kinds of
conversations have on theseoverall topics and issues.
(51:42):
And and that's that's where thebest kinds of conversations
have on these overall topics andissues, and and that's that's
where the best kinds of changecome from.
Because now, when you're in aconversation with someone that
you, that you know well, thatyou feel close to, and they say
committed suicide, you'll feelempowered to say, hey, look, you
know, I I don't know if you're,if you're aware of you know, I
(52:03):
don't know if you're, if you'reaware of you know the change
that's happened in the worldwhere we don't say that anymore,
and here's why, like you'llfeel, like you can educate
someone else so you know, it's a, it's a, it's a positive
trickle down effect.
Thank you so much for that, ohyou're welcome, you're welcome.
Kertia (52:27):
Trickling down from that , I want to know what lesson did
your personal grief teach youabout yourself.
Lisa (52:31):
Yeah, wow, that's a big question.
It taught me, I think, first andforemost by being vulnerable
with myself and by beingvulnerable out in the rest of
the world, I'm actually helpingmyself and helping the world
(52:56):
around me far more than I amwhen I'm trying to keep it all
together.
By being open, by being honest,by putting my true self or my
true feelings or my trueheadspace out into the world, I
can get what I need far betterthan I ever could by picking and
(53:20):
choosing and curating what Iput out to people around me.
And by doing that, by me beingvulnerable in the world, it's
encouraging other people to bevulnerable back to me, to
themselves, to their communities, and I think that's one of the
(53:46):
most powerful things in theworld that we can do, because if
we don't really know wherewe're all at, if we're not
admitting it to ourselves, ifwe're not admitting it to the
world, then we're not livingauthentically and we're not
helping each other as much as wetruly can.
So I've learned that that'sbecome one of my biggest assets
(54:10):
is to be exactly.
What you see is what you get,and you know now where I stand
in a very, very true way and and, uh, I don't think I can ever
go back to you know, to to notkind of putting it all out there
, because I've seen it benefitme in too many beautiful ways.
Kertia (54:35):
Yeah, I think the problem sometimes is we feel
unsafe being authentic.
Right, it's frightening.
Yeah, A lot of us feel unsafewith our authenticity and
bringing that out to theforefront and just standing in
(54:56):
that and allowing other peopleto witness that, people to
witness that.
And I think when you're able todo that bringing that
vulnerability, talking aboutyour story, about yourself,
about where you stand and beingtrue to that I think when people
can witness you do that, youcan possibly help them to do
(55:20):
that themselves.
Or maybe, if they can't do ittomorrow, maybe even ask
themselves why can't I do that?
Why is it so hard for me to dothat?
Because authenticity comes withso many things.
It's not about just showing theworld about everything that you
are, but you're also helping somuch people, so many people
(55:41):
right In the process.
It's not just about you.
It is about you, but it's somuch bigger than that.
Lisa (55:49):
Yeah, yeah, it is, and and I think, I think, that once we
realize that we need to bemaking decisions that are not
only beneficial for ourselvesbut for the greater population,
that's when, that's when we'llstart to see epic changes in the
(56:10):
world.
When, when it becomes, itbecomes we, not me.
Kertia (56:16):
Yeah.
Lisa (56:17):
And you know, I'm just thinking about even the title of
your podcast, like the otherside of fear, like it is so
frightening to think about whatwill happen if you're honest and
vulnerable, to think about whatwill happen if you're truly
exposed.
What's going to happen if we'retransparent and we tell the
(56:41):
truth and we own our shit.
You know what I mean.
We're worried about what'sgoing to happen.
But then, when you get to theother side of that fear to
borrow your title we see it'snot really as scary as we
thought, we see it's not reallyas hard as we thought.
We see that it impacts so muchmore in such a positive way than
(57:03):
we thought.
So you know it's.
You know it's like they say,the best lessons are the hardest
ones to learn.
And you know the best parts oflife come on the other side of
your comfort zone and this is nodifferent.
Absolutely different absolutely,absolutely.
Kertia (57:24):
I've actually had some of my best, most profound
experiences and insights on theother side of all of my fears,
yep, yeah yeah, I would, I wouldagree, yep same, all the things
that I allowed to hold me backand keep me stuck in this space,
(57:44):
and, you know, thinking that Iwas better off over here than
over there, because over thereit looks scary, I don't know
what's on the other side, Idon't know what's waiting for me
and all the risk that itinvolves it involves.
But when I finally took thestep to challenge myself, to do
(58:07):
it anyway, you know, to talkmyself through it, there are
many things that I do and peopleare just like how do you do it?
You make it look so easy andthey have no idea it's so hard.
And even my partner, when wewere years ago, when we were
just getting to know each otherand I was very open with her, I
said listen, there are thingsthat sometimes it might look
(58:29):
like, oh, she's got this, she'sdoing the thing, she's, she's,
she's flying.
It's just like.
I don't feel like that.
It might look like that to you,but I don't feel that way.
I don't feel that way and youneed to know that, while I am
doing this thing, that that itlooks so easy to you when you're
watching me do it, I'mliterally talking myself through
(58:49):
it, I'm literally coachingmyself through it so that I can
make it through, so that I canmake it all the way to the end
of the line.
Lisa (58:57):
Right, so I know I get it.
I'm sitting here like I'mlaughing because, I get it.
I'm sitting here like I'mlaughing because I get it.
I'm laughing because I'mexactly the same way and I have
those same feelings for sure,because we are so afraid of what
we don't know and it takes anawful lot of guts and a lot,
(59:20):
awful lot of effort to takethose steps, to do those things.
And so I like mad respect foryou because to do the thing,
it's hard enough.
To do something that is just achallenge, it's even harder to
do something that's a challengethat you're afraid of.
Kertia (59:37):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
It's so hard, it's so so hardand I don't feel like doing it.
I want to run away, I want tocrawl under some rock somewhere,
but I you know the things thatI'm afraid of.
I've gotten to this statewhereby, instead of running or
(59:59):
freezing, I begin talking myselfthrough it.
Instead of running or freezing,I begin talking myself through
it.
You know, when you're runningthat race and you feel like
you're getting tired and you'relosing breath and your muscles
are aching, and you want to slowdown and you're just
exasperated and you're startingto slow down and there's someone
watching you and they'retelling you go and they're
(01:00:20):
clapping and they're cheeringand it helps to just push you a
little harder that's what I haveto do for myself.
I literally have to talk myselfthrough things sometimes yeah,
you know like, even if I don'tknow what this huge thing is
gonna look like.
Um, let me see this one tinything that I can do today.
If I can do this tiny thing,well, maybe tomorrow I can take
(01:00:42):
on something else.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah, and it's not about.
Lisa (01:00:49):
it's not about doing all the things and getting every
single thing right and doingthese big, massive
accomplishments.
It's it's the micro wins, it'sthe, it's the little things.
It doesn't have to be somethingso dramatic.
It can be something so basicand simple and it's all relative
(01:01:14):
.
It's all relative just making aphone call, picking up the
phone and scheduling a doctor'sappointment.
They're uncomfortable with thatand for them to get up the
courage to do that, that's a winand that should be celebrated
Like it's all relative.
It doesn't you know, it doesn'thave to be more than that, but
(01:01:35):
we think that it does, but itreally doesn't Exactly.
Kertia (01:01:40):
I just want to talk about the Trevor Project that
you've been working on that.
You've been working with anddoing some really important work
in the LGBTQ plus communitymental health space.
I'd love to just talk aboutthat and end on that note.
Yeah, of course.
Lisa (01:02:02):
Trevor Project has become such a big and important part of
my life for so many, so many,many different reasons, and
again it was one of those thingsthat was not even really on my
radar until a handful of yearsago, when probably when my
oldest daughter came out incollege.
(01:02:23):
She came out as bisexual incollege.
She was a junior going into hersenior year, and so we had
always been allies of the LGBTQcommunity, but then having a
child who was part of thatcommunity elevated it to a
different place for all of us.
And my daughter, ironically, wasthe person who unknowingly
(01:02:45):
encouraged me to come out.
I came out about two years agoas pansexual, and so now, all of
a sudden, I wasn't an ally, Iwas a member of the community.
My child was a member of thecommunity, and so Trevor Project
, along with so many otherbeautiful LGBTQ communities,
became a part of my life.
And so when I started lookingfor ways to to make more of an
(01:03:09):
impact as a mental healthadvocate, that was a no-brainer
to me because it was like aperfect intersection for me of
the things that I cared mostabout, which was helping people
and, more specifically, helpingthe LGBTQ community.
And so I got involved and wasfortunate enough to get into
their training program theircrisis counselor training
(01:03:31):
program into their trainingprogram, their crisis counselor
training program and spent awhole bunch of months actively
training.
And then I've been now on thecrisis lifeline.
So there's a texting line.
A lot of people don't know thatTrevor Project not only offers a
telephone helpline that's 24hours, 365 days a year but they
(01:03:51):
also have a texting service.
If you don't feel like pickingup the phone and calling talking
to someone, you can do it overtext.
So I trained to be a lifelinecounselor.
So I'm actually on thetelephone and it's been about a
year and a half now that I'vebeen regularly on the phones
every week and it's it has sucha profound impact on my life and
(01:04:13):
on the way that I hold spacefor people and on the way that
I've learned to validate peopleand encourage people to preserve
their agency as a human andtheir own decisions, and I'm
just it's a gift.
Every time I pick up the phoneand someone's on it who is
struggling, you know, I think ofmy dad and I think of my dad
(01:04:38):
not having that and wondering,of course you know, would the
outcome have been different ifmy dad had a Trevor Project to
call or a 98 Lifeline, in hiscase, to call?
But being a part of anorganization that's making this
kind of an impact is, uh, it'sjust a.
(01:05:08):
It's just a very valuable partof the day to day that I live
now and I'm so proud of the workthat I get to do.
I'm so proud of the communitythat I work with, because these
Trevor Project counselors andsupervisors are just some of the
best people and to be part ofthat is really truly something
special.
So I've really just had such apositive experience across the
(01:05:30):
board.
It's just so eye opening.
You just never know whatsomeone's dealing with and
that's the biggest thing.
Like you know, I live here inthe East coast and, um, you know
I live in a quiet littleseaside town and you know it's
pretty affluent and not a ton ofdiversity, unfortunately, and
(01:05:51):
what I've seen, what I've heard,what I've, you know, been able
to experience as a crisiscounselor, it just it blows your
brain wide open in terms ofwhat's really going on in the
world and what people are reallystruggling with, and it creates
a different level of empathythat I don't think I ever had on
that level than.
I do now.
So, yeah, that's.
(01:06:12):
And for those who don't knowwhat the Trevor project is, it's
the largest crisis supporthotline and network for at-risk
LGBTQ youth ages 13 to 24.
Amazing, yeah, yeah, they're um, and they've been around for 25
years, so they've helped a a alot of a lot of people, which is
(01:06:37):
, which is, a beautiful thingyeah, that is so beautiful.
Kertia (01:06:41):
I love that so much and I love that for you and your
daughter amazing, yeah, it's,it's it's been a.
Lisa (01:06:49):
It's been pretty special Both my kids.
It's given me a lot of pridethat my kids have been so proud
of the work that I do with theTrevor Project.
You know it's one thing to be anally or to be a member of a
community or to support acommunity.
It's something entirelydifferent to do it on this level
(01:07:17):
and to be able to give back tothis community that I've grown
to love so much, this LGBTQcommunity on this level and to
know that you know, you, youmaybe have changed the course of
someone's life, that when youknow there have been so many
times where I've spoken tosomeone who is suicidal, I've
gotten someone on the phone whodoes want to take their life and
maybe in the process of tryingto take their life, and that
(01:07:40):
feeling of being able to kind ofdeescalate that person and
create a, you know, a safetyplan for that person and have
that person's mind shift to aplace where they don't feel that
need to end their life anymore,like that's, that's it, that's
all there is.
As far as I'm concerned, that's, that's worth everything.
(01:08:03):
So to be able to do that asoften as I do, it's one of my
favorite things.
Kertia (01:08:11):
You know you don't.
Lisa (01:08:11):
You don't want to say that you don't want people to be in
crisis, but it's one of myfavorite things.
You know you don't.
You don't want to say that youdon't want people to be in
crisis, but it's one of myfavorite things to be able to
help someone who is?
Kertia (01:08:19):
Yeah, yeah, that's amazing.
That's so beautiful.
Lisa, I love that so much, somuch.
And just to wrap up, I know youhave written a few books, even
though we've really focused onmental health.
I want you to tell people wherethey can find your work.
You know, because you've done alot.
Yeah.
Lisa (01:08:41):
I try to keep busy.
For sure.
I, you know, I've had thisweird career, this, this, this
pretty eclectic career path.
It's been so organic when Ikind of look at it from above
and I'm kind of looking down onit.
I do all these different thingswith all these different
platforms and somehow it alljust kind of jives.
(01:09:02):
You know, it all just kind offits together and it's been it's
.
It's been a beautiful littlejourney.
So anybody who wants to findany of the work that I do, the
best place to find it is on mywebsite, so that's just at
lisasugarmancom.
And I just this summer did acomplete rebuild, rebrand
(01:09:25):
whatever you want to call it ofmy website, because now my work
is really focused around mentalhealth advocacy and crisis
counseling and putting resourcesinto the world to help people
with whatever mental healthchallenge they may have Overall
well-being, certainly suicideprevention and awareness.
(01:09:45):
So my website now reallyreflects all of that.
I mean you can find all mybooks and everything on my site.
I've written a column.
I wrote a syndicated column foryears called it Is what it Is,
and I just recently launched anew column with a whole new vibe
, a whole new focus.
It's called we Are who we Areand it's a very much a mental
(01:10:07):
health focused column.
That's on my website as well.
I have a YouTube channel and onmy YouTube channel I have a
fairly new series of shortvideos that I've been putting
out.
I drop them every Monday andit's called the Suicide Survivor
Series and it's really justlike quick little vignettes.
Maybe it's in fact one of theones that I did that that I've
(01:10:32):
gotten a lot of feedback aboutis the one where I talk about
why we shouldn't be sayingcommitted suicide anymore, why I
talk about word choice and thatwhole conversation.
So videos like that, where Italk about grief, I talk about
loss, I talk about depression, Italk about coping strategies,
all the different things, allthe facets of mental illness and
(01:10:52):
mental health and, yeah, it'sall on my website.
And one of the big, big featuresof my site that I'm really
encouraging people to go andcheck out is the mental health
resources page that I have beencurating now for like the past
five or six months, really justtrying to find and capture as
(01:11:13):
many resources for as manydifferent communities as I can.
I don't just want to have aresource page with a bunch of
800 numbers.
I want people in the Asiancommunity and the BIPOC
community and people who aredisabled and veterans and
parents of young children andthe elderly.
I wanted to have a place whereall the resources for all the
(01:11:37):
communities could be found andaccessed very quickly and very
easily.
So if you go on my website, Ihave about 16 different
categories and if you click onany of them like there's grief
resources, um, mindfulnessresources you click on that and
it goes to a separate page whereyou can find all the top
(01:11:58):
resources in that category.
So that's out there too on mywebsite, so people can find that
there as well amazing, love it.
Kertia (01:12:08):
So happy we had this conversation me too.
Lisa (01:12:10):
Me too, like so so grateful that we found each
other and like I feel likeyou're, you're one of those
people.
I feel like I could probablycontinue this conversation for
another two hours, Like not eventhinking twice.
Yeah, yeah.
Kertia (01:12:24):
Yeah, all day.
Yeah, yeah.
Hope you all enjoy thisconversation and I'd love to
hear your thoughts about thephrase committed suicide and how
you think that might have insome way affected your own
perception of suicide.
And if you'd like to get deeperinto this topic or any other
(01:12:47):
topic discussed on this podcast,join us over in our patreon
where we really get into it,because that is what it's all
about Creating a community ofsupport, of shared experiences,
where we can get real with nojudgment, where you are seen,
heard and validated.
(01:13:07):
All right, until next time.
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