May 27, 2024 • 50 mins
Key Takeaways:
- Anger as a secondary emotion to fear.
- Complex PTSD develops out of experiencing trauma on a daily or regular basis.
- The benefits of Dialectical Behaviour Therapy (DPT) for reducing anxiety and various symptoms of stress and trauma.
Speaking to Jennifer Ginty about her experience with childhood abuse, we highlight the complex world of dealing with C-PTSD. She peels back the layers of how repeated trauma shapes one's emotional landscape and relational dynamics.
In discussing the deeply embedded fears and self-doubt that results from childhood trauma, Jennifer enlightens us on the transformative power of therapies like EMDR and DBT, offering a testament to the importance of a strong therapeutic alliance. We further discuss the fundamental protective nature of anger and, how Jennifer's invention, My Moody Monster, can be used as a tool to help children express and cope with their emotions.
Jennifer provides practical tools and coping strategies that can help with recovery, sharing innovative methods involving My Moody Monster , the Crayola Model Magic, alongside the DEAR MAN communication technique, which together can be an excellent resource for those seeking to express and regulate emotions.
Resources
Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving....- Pete Walker
Trauma and Recovery- Dr. Judith Herman
In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts- Dr. Gabor Mate
The Body Keeps the Score- Bessel Van Der Kolk
How to Do the Work- Dr. Nicole LePera
Complex PTSD with Internal Family Systems- Dr. Frank Anderson
Healing Trauma- Peter Levine
DBT Skills Training Manual- Marsha M. Linehan
Connect with us!!!
Instagram @discovertheothersideoffear
Youtube The Other Side of Fear Podcast
Kertia's Email: discovertheothersidepodcast@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kertia (00:00):
This conversation that I had with Jennifer Ginty, a
mental health advocate, coversthe topic of childhood abuse,
and what I'd hope for you totake away from this conversation
is becoming aware of complexPTSD, which stands for complex
post-traumatic stress disorder,and to be aware of how it shows
(00:22):
up in our lives, in our bodiesand in how we experience and
deal with our emotions.
Now, complex PTSD is differentfrom PTSD that most of us are
already aware of in that, whilePTSD deals with the mental
disorder that results fromcing aspecific traumatic event that
(00:43):
is, a single event, for example,like a car crash, complex PTSD
is the result of a personexperiencing repeated trauma
over a long period of time,trauma that is a part of your
daily life that can last formonths or even years or even
(01:08):
years.
So this conversation gives aperfect example of CPTSD because
it addresses a repeated,prolonged trauma, that is,
childhood sexual abuse.
Now, while symptoms of bothPTSD and complex PTSD can
overlap, it is important tounderstand that complex PTSD is
harder to identify and treatbecause the circumstances that
(01:30):
led to the presentation of thesymptoms are not always obvious.
So, because of that, cptsd isoften misdiagnosed as ADHD,
depression, bipolar disorder, asADHD, depression, bipolar
disorder, anxiety and othermental health disorders.
Now, some examples of howcomplex PTSD might affect you
(01:53):
are the ability to pay attention, difficulty regulating your
emotions.
You might have angry outburstsor periods of intense sadness.
You may disassociate completely, tuning out of the environment
around you.
You may experience sleepdisorders, lack of trust in
(02:15):
relationships, even when theperson has not proven to be
untrustworthy, and you mighteven try to avoid relationships.
You may also have a pattern ofbeing in unhealthy relationships
.
You may experience lowself-worth, having a persistent
(02:36):
negative perception of yourself,and you may even self-harm.
You may engage in high-riskbehaviors and you may also
experience hypervigilance, likeyou're always on edge, or maybe
you're always expecting orwaiting for something bad to
happen, as well as having thepersistent belief that people
(02:59):
are bad and that the world is anunsafe place.
So these are just a few symptoms, a few examples of how complex
PTSD can show up in your life,in your body, in your ability to
emotionally regulate and inyour mindset.
(03:22):
And these are all stressresponses that occur because our
brain, our bodies, are in thatstate of trying to protect us.
So I urge you to follow up onthis with your own research, and
I've given you a head start byabuse.
(03:44):
That's a touch in that a littlebit.
I'd like to know what were thefears that came up for you when
(04:07):
you were going through that.
Jennifer Ginty (04:10):
Okay, yep, so my abuser was my father, and you
expect a parent to take care oftheir children rather than to
instill fear and anger toinstill fear and anger.
(04:30):
So during the time that I wasgrowing up, I was always in fear
of, you know, messing up insome way or even getting into a
fight with my brothers, becausemy brothers would get a lot of
you know the abuse and I wouldfeel terrible about it.
So I would like throw myself ontop of my brothers to stop it.
And you know so.
There was a lot of fearthroughout my daily life and it
(04:53):
didn't stop when it all came out.
So my brother told his tutorabout the abuse and the you know
the everything happened.
My father left, but we neverfelt safe because there were
really no guards there for us.
He was supposed to stay away,but he really didn't.
(05:15):
He'd come over and continue toput fear into us, even after we
had talked about it and hadstarted a criminal suit against
him.
So the fear was very, verypotent during that time and it
(05:37):
causes, when you're in, complexPTSD, which means that you're
living your trauma day by day,as opposed to PTSD, which could
be one or two situations thathappen, that cause it.
Complex PTSD is that you'resteeped in your trauma, in your
(05:58):
fear, and coming out of mychildhood I learned that showing
fear was not acceptable.
So I would go to a secondaryemotion and it would be anger.
So my primary emotion would befear, but because I couldn't
show fear, especially in asituation with an abuser, my
(06:23):
next emotion would be anger andI would use that to hide the
fear that I had.
And it continued past when myabuser left our home, into
college, into my 20s, work life,that kind of thing.
When you're steeped in it forso long, you don't automatically
(06:47):
say, okay, well, I don't haveto fear this anymore.
It's in your brain, it's inyour body.
Your body is feeling that sametrauma.
Um, and it can be like that.
You know, it could be a snapand it would come back without
any true, you know, truenecessity.
(07:07):
Even so, fear is something thatI grew up with from the time
that I was just a little child.
I don't remember how back, butyou know, probably since I was a
toddler up until I was afreshman in high school, living
with my offender.
Kertia (07:29):
That is really tough.
I experienced a some level ofchildhood abuse as well.
For me was being blamed, beingblamed for what happened to me
(07:52):
and being punished for it, andit doesn't make sense.
You know, I was raped.
I was a child, I was eightyears old and my cousin was much
older and I was thinking likeI'm going to be the one that's
(08:13):
in trouble.
You know, it's kind of weirdthinking about it, because the
opposite of that makes sense,but in my brain at the time I
thought that I would have beenthe one that would be held
responsible for this.
You know, my family dynamicswasn't the greatest at the time
(08:37):
either, so I didn't feel safetrusting to tell an adult about
the abuse that I experienced.
I didn't have a trusted adultthat I could explain this to.
My relationships at the timewith my mom and my stepdad was
(09:01):
very precarious.
It was unstable in a lot ofways even at that time.
So I didn't have an avenue tokind of express myself and
really be open about what washappening and what was going
(09:24):
through.
I remember thinking, even by thetime I was a couple years later
, let's say between the ages ofnine, nine, 10, 11, you know,
and you start learning aboutbody parts and sex at in school.
I remember another thing thatcame up for me is just like oh
(09:47):
my God, like this person couldhave given me an STD.
Now imagine a regular child atthat age, between the ages of
nine and 11.
You want to play, you want tohave fun, you want to do all the
things Right, and my mostimportant concern at the time
(10:12):
was I hope I didn't have an STDfrom what occurred.
Jennifer Ginty (10:18):
Wow yeah, a few years back.
That's strong, that's strongand that's it's so scary.
Kertia (10:26):
Yeah, and that was a huge fear for me as a child and
so I always grew up having eveninto adulthood, I was always
that person that I was alwaysgetting tested.
You know what I mean?
I always wanted to be testedfor STDs, I wanted.
I was so paranoid, I was alwaysparanoid, like I carried around
(10:48):
this paranoia for years, right,so my fear, it didn't show up.
You know, yours showed up asthat secondary emotion, anger,
but mine showed up as a hugeparanoia around my body, right,
and a huge fear of men.
(11:11):
You know, I grew up beingafraid of men and I didn't
realize that until I was in myadult relationships, my intimate
relationships as an adult, myadult relationships, my intimate
relationships as an adult Ididn't realize that I had a fear
, a deep fear of men.
(11:31):
Until, you know, whenever wehad issues in those
relationships, when we will havearguments and things like that,
my mind will go to this personcould hurt me or I will have a
fear that they will hurt me insome way.
And I didn't startunderstanding where this fear
(11:55):
came from until I remembered theabuse as a child, because it
didn't happen one time, ithappened a few times.
So for me, that is how my fearshowed up, right, A fear around
what will happen in relation tomy family dynamics.
What would the parents do?
What would my aunts, how wouldthey react?
(12:15):
Will they say that?
I remember one of the reasonswhy I had that fear about
telling my family is becauseanother little girl had
complained that this man touchedher and she was completely
(12:37):
invalidated.
Right, he completely flat outdenied it, said she was lying
and that she's a liar.
She was 12 at the time.
I remember she was 12.
She said that he touched her.
He completely denied it, calledher a liar and everyone
(13:14):
believed him.
So there was that too.
Yep, right, so no one believedher.
Yep, right, so no one believedher.
So how are they going tobelieve me?
Right, and men, and then thefear of what is happening in my
(13:34):
body as a result of this.
So that was mine.
It's really heavy and that'swhy I asked, because I want to
know, because you know, we seethese things all the time in TV
and the news and you hear peoplecoming out saying, oh, this
(14:01):
person raped me 20 years ago,and a lot of the times like,
yeah, we know that there arepeople who come out and you,
they tell false stories, but alot of it is also true, right,
and those people come to getinvolved.
Yeah, and those people actuallyget invalidated a lot of the
times, but from a standpoint ofsomeone who I didn't tell my
(14:23):
family about this until justbefore COVID.
Jennifer Ginty (14:28):
Okay.
Kertia (14:29):
And this happened when I was eight and I'm 35 this year
.
Jennifer Ginty (14:33):
That's a long time to sit with it and, you
know, not get validation fromthe people who were supposed to
be protecting you.
Kertia (14:41):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Jennifer Ginty (14:45):
And that's what gets me so upset about there's
right now currently they're inmy in my state there's a uh a
case where a daughter went tothe hospital and um reported on
her father and the court endedup giving the father full
(15:05):
custody of the two daughters andno custody to the mother.
And this is the type of thingthat really gets a fire under me
and starts up that advocacypart for me, because I went
through so much in that systemwhen I was 13 years old until I
(15:27):
was 19.
It took that long to put myfather in prison and he only
spent four years there.
So there was a point where Ihad to go in front of a grand
jury and talk about explicitsexual abuse for me to be
believed that he touched me,that he hurt me, that he harmed
(15:51):
his own daughter, and at onepoint one of the lawyers asked
us to not report a certain likephysical abuse.
That happened because theydidn't think that it would help
the case.
But it happened, it was real.
Why would we not say that thatwas real?
(16:16):
You're turning it around andsaying that we were lying about
something that very muchhappened and very much hurt us
as children.
They just wanted an easy win iswhat it came down to.
And my state has lousy, andthat was the 90s, that was the
(16:37):
early 90s, and what I just toldyou is happening right now is
still happening in my state andit's straight up disgusting.
So it lights a fire under me toget out there and to advocate
for children and to believechildren when they say that
something that serious hashappened to them.
(16:58):
Do you really think a child isgoing to be able to make that up
unless it's being fed to them,which most times that is not the
case at all?
Yeah, I'd say a very small,small percentage of children
have been coached on what to say, so children need to be
(17:22):
believed when they say something.
They're not making this up,because how can a child make
that up?
They don't know that right?
So I think it's very importantthat we get that word out there,
that children don't lie aboutthe things that happen to them,
(17:42):
and to believe them.
Kertia (17:45):
Yeah, so true on all different levels.
You touched on complex PTSD,right.
I want you to talk a little bitabout that and how, because I
know it shows up.
Of course it shows updifferently for everyone, right?
But from your experience withit, how can it show up for you?
(18:09):
How did it show up for a verylong time and I was completely
unaware of it, like I didn'tknow.
I had no idea that I wasexperiencing complex PTSD until
(18:36):
I came across it by chancesomewhere.
So I kind of want you to getinto that a little bit so that I
don't know.
Maybe if there is someone elseout there experiencing complex
PTSD and they're completelyunaware of it, then this might
give them some insight.
Jennifer Ginty (18:53):
Absolutely so.
I'm blessed to live close toone of the premier mental health
hospitals in the country McLeanHospital and I have spent
inpatient there and I've alsodone outpatient therapy there in
groups.
And the first time I was taughtabout complex PTSD as opposed
(19:16):
to PTSD, the social worker thatI was working with really gave a
great definition of the two,and so what she had told me PTSD
picture that you were in a caraccident and it was a really,
really, really bad accident andyou had the fear afterwards that
(19:37):
would happen again.
You didn't want to get into acar again.
You didn't want to drive again.
You didn't want to get intothat situation again.
You didn't want to get into acar again.
You didn't want to drive again.
You didn't want to get intothat situation again.
That is a type of PTSD, and thattype of PTSD over the years can
be lessened, it can be copedwith, Whereas complex PTSD is
(20:01):
that you've been steeped in yourtrauma.
You have lived in that traumafor years.
That could be childhood, thatcould be domestic violence, that
could be military, that couldbe very many different
situations.
So that's how I was taught.
(20:23):
What complex PTSD is is thatit's pretty much in your bones,
it's in your body, it's in yourhead, it's in all the places
that are our lizard brain,because that's what we were
taught every day.
And you had asked me about howI felt as a child, the fear that
I felt.
Well, that fear was an everydaything, that pretty much just
(20:45):
seeped into my body.
And I don't know if you've everheard of the book the Body
Keeps the Score.
That is pretty much complexPTSD.
Your body is living that traumaover and over because it lived
it every day for a good periodof time.
So complex PTSD is.
(21:09):
It's really a whole differentanimal in the end.
That I don't even think hasbeen fully realized.
I think it's kind of new topeople because I never heard the
term complex PTSD untilprobably six or seven years ago
and it's not even a validdiagnosis.
(21:30):
Ptsd is the diagnosis andcomplex is just something that
psychologists, psychiatrists,therapists use to determine and
differentiate between the two.
Yeah, so it's.
I think that's a reallyimportant thing to understand
for people that complex PTSD,and when people use that term,
(21:54):
it means that this person haslived a significant portion of
their life in fear, in trauma.
So when you ask, how does itshow up?
For me.
It shows up for me in the sensethat I second guess myself a
lot.
I fear that I am making thewrong decision when, if I use my
(22:21):
intuition correctly, I'm doingwhat needs to be done for me,
for my children, for whoever isinvolved in there.
But that fear shows up in thebackground of am I, you know, am
I choosing the right thing?
Am I good enough to make adecision the right thing?
(22:47):
Am I good enough to make adecision?
Because I was told as a child,I was told almost daily from my
abuser you're fat, you're uglyand no one loves you.
So to hear that for a goodportion of your life, it comes
up in your regular everyday lifein that sense of second
guessing yourself mistrust.
You don't trust anyone in yourlife, even if they've proven to
(23:11):
you over and over again that youcan trust them.
So I think that the fear for meis always in that background,
always on, and it's a part of methat I need to heal.
So I work with family systems,internal family systems, and we
(23:37):
talk about different parts ofyourself and there's a part of
me that holds on to that fearand doesn't let go of it and
needs to be talked to and, youknow, made to feel safe.
Kertia (23:54):
Yeah.
Jennifer Ginty (23:55):
And when we do that, which I continue to do
I've been doing this for yearsand years and years.
Like I told you before, I'malmost 50 this year and I still
work.
I have to work really hard.
I was with my therapistyesterday and I was doing EMDR
work for trauma and it wasreally hard and it sat with me
for the rest of the day.
(24:16):
It's complex.
It's complex in the sense thatit can show up at any time, it
can sneak up on you, it canblast right into your face.
Kertia (24:38):
And you have to learn the skills that feel right to
you to cope with.
Yeah, exactly that, Becausethat is something that I've
experienced as well.
That fear never left me right.
I just found better ways todeal with it or found a way to
move through it.
Or sometimes I need someoneelse to help me to move through
(25:03):
it, Right?
Jennifer Ginty (25:03):
So yeah, I totally get that Finding that
trust.
The person that you trust themost to do that too is.
I mean, this is I've gonethrough therapists throughout
the years, but my therapist isthe therapist you know.
I trust her.
I know she's not going to letme get away with anything, which
is awesome, right, becausesometimes you try to run away
(25:25):
from it or you try to cover itup and she knows how to call me
on it and I trust her for that.
She's not feeding me any lines.
She's not telling me it's allokay.
She's telling me the truth andthat's what helps me to trust
her telling me the truth, andthat's what helps me to trust
(25:49):
her.
Kertia (25:49):
It's so helpful when you can find that therapist that
you click with, because ittakes sometimes it takes a while
, and I know it's easy to giveup and say you know some people
they go to therapy the firsttime or maybe even the first
three times and they don't feellike it's a match and they feel
like, oh well, therapy is notfor me, it's never going to work
for me and sometimes really,you just haven't found the right
(26:12):
therapist.
Sometimes you just haven't foundsomeone that you really connect
with and it's just trial anderror.
So I definitely encourageanyone who is experiencing any
sort of trauma or PTSD or mentalhealth challenges to definitely
seek therapy.
I love that you also mentionedanger as your secondary emotion,
(26:41):
as your secondary emotion.
I don't think a lot of peopleare aware that some of the
emotions that present themselvesoutwardly, that are visible,
that are more visible to us,that sometimes or most of the
times, actually it is secondaryto the actual emotion, the real,
(27:05):
true emotion that you'refeeling.
Can you just touch on that alittle bit and give us some
insights on that?
Jennifer Ginty (27:11):
Absolutely so.
This is what I learned from atherapy called DBT dialectical
behavioral therapy and it is atherapy that was created for
people with PTSD, and one of themain coping skills that they
have is called check the facts.
So this is how I learned aboutprimary and secondary emotions.
(27:35):
So checking the facts is a wayto look at the situation without
an emotion attached to it,exactly what happened and
matching the emotion that goeswith the actual facts.
So if I'm feeling anger in asituation where I'm actually, I
(27:56):
just felt fear and my secondaryemotion clicked in and said no,
no, no, no, no.
That's not acceptable.
You can't feel fear.
You can't show fear.
You're going to show anger.
You're going to feel angerabout this.
It's protective Secondaryemotions are 100% a protection
that your brain has to get youaway from the much more
(28:20):
traumatizing emotion that you'vehad with it.
So it's really important tounderstand that the situation
fits the emotion that you feel.
I have a couple of differentYouTube videos about checking
the facts and it comes withworksheets and all that kind of
stuff, because it's my numberone favorite.
Kertia (28:44):
I saw that I watched your.
Yeah, I checked out yoursession with Moody Monster.
Jennifer Ginty (28:51):
First of all, I want to talk about that for a
little bit my Moody Monster andhow that idea came about.
For you, of course, yes.
So this is my passion project.
I love my Moody Monster so much.
(29:11):
So one day I was in atherapeutic group.
I was really, really frustratedwith my symptoms, my PTSD
symptoms, my depression and Isaid I wish I had a monster that
I could rip apart and throwacross the room and bang against
the furniture.
And the people in the groupwere like, yeah, you should have
that.
So I went home and I reallykind of thought about it and I
am not a seamstress, I am not atailor but I pulled out fabric
(29:36):
and I put together this crazylooking monster.
And what I did with the monsterwas I made all of their parts
rippable so you'd be able totear the whole body apart the
arms, the legs, the head and beable to do whatever you would
need to get out, get all of thatfrustration out, and then, when
(29:57):
you put them back together, youcan think about what happened
and you know what?
What skill can I use next time?
That may work better in thissituation.
And I really thought it might bea great tool for children,
because children so when I was akid and I know most people I
talked to who weren't even intraumatic situations in their
(30:19):
childhood were always told tohide their feelings.
Don't be an angry girl, don'tget people upset, don't, you
know, make people uncomfortablewith your emotions, and that's
just, you know telling childrento shove them all down.
And that's where people canmost of the time come up with
(30:40):
secondary emotions because ofthat being pushed, all of their
emotion being pushed down,because they've been told by
adults that they're not allowedto feel that in public.
So I thought that Moody would bea great toy a great, you know
tool for children to be able toget that physical frustration
(31:01):
out in a safe way and then beable to talk to their caregiver,
their parent, your teacher,therapist, whoever they need to
talk to about it, talk aboutwhat happened, what they can do
next time to feel lessfrustrated.
And it took me a while.
It's been four years that I'vebeen working on Moody.
I ended up going into anaccelerator program and really
(31:25):
building up the brand and Iabsolutely am so happy with the
final product, and families,therapists, teachers, have had a
great experience with them aswell.
Kertia (31:40):
I love it.
I absolutely love it becauseit's so important for kids.
My daughter she has hugeemotions and I can just imagine
what that would do for asituation when your child is
just completely dysregulated andthey're experiencing these big
(32:00):
emotions and they're having thisoutburst.
And it's hard as a parent.
You get frustrated as wellbecause you kind of feel
helpless, you're not sure how torespond.
And this is so helpful because,as you said, when they can rip
the monster apart and you canhelp them.
Even you told me the last timeputting that monster back
(32:22):
together and then using that asa tool to also communicate
better, right, and as a tool toactually express the emotion
that the child is experiencing.
So I really, really love that.
Yeah, how do you think you knowfrom your experience with
(32:44):
therapy, with creative, moodyand even as a mom, right how can
we communicate our feelingsbetter, especially when it comes
with our kids?
How can we make that work?
Jennifer Ginty (32:59):
Well, I think, first of all, we need to have
our own coping skills.
When it comes to frustration,and I think that's I wish that I
had had the coping skills thatI have now when my children were
smaller, because my oldest hada lot of behavioral problems.
He was, you know, he was very.
(33:20):
He had big physical outbursts.
You know, he was very.
He had big physical outburstsand afterwards he would get this
shame spiral because he haddone this physical damage to
property or whatever hisproperty, my property doesn't
matter and then he felt terribleabout it, he felt awful, and
that was, I think, something.
(33:42):
That's where shame comes in andthat's where toxic shame comes
in, and that's a whole otherthing we could talk about.
So I think it's important and Ithink toxic shame is another
big thing in parenting as well,where we feel badly all the time
that we're not a good parent,yeah, so I think that it's most
important for parents to havetheir coping skills before they
(34:06):
can even start helping theirchildren with that.
And that comes down to hey,maybe you rip apart Moody,
because also you're showing thebehavior that.
Yeah, I'm angry right now andI'm taking it out the way that
I'm supposed to.
Kertia (34:22):
Yeah.
Jennifer Ginty (34:23):
So I think that, yeah, I think parents need to
understand that all of theirchildren's feelings are valid,
and they have to understand thatabout themselves as well and
give themselves grace, and thenthey're able to help their
children in the same respect.
They can teach them the copingskills that work for them, or
(34:45):
they can find other copingskills for them.
But, moody's a great like jumpoff board to be able to talk to
your kids about what happened,why they are feeling the way
they're feeling and what can wedo next time to make you not
feel so badly.
Kertia (35:06):
I love Moody Monster, so can you just quickly tell the
listeners where they can getMoody?
Jennifer Ginty (35:12):
Absolutely, so.
You can get Moody on my websiteat mymoodymonstercom, and you
can also buy him throughFacebook or Instagram, so
they're available in that way aswell.
They also come with their ownbag, their backpack, to carry
(35:33):
them around with.
Maybe your kid ripped themapart, doesn't want to put them
back together again, throw themin that bag.
And it comes with a coloringbook about feelings and how
Moody can help.
Kertia (35:42):
I love that.
That's fantastic.
That's fantastic.
That is such a great tool.
It's such a great tool to justget those big feelings out,
especially for kids and even foradults.
Because, honestly, you know, thething that boggles my mind
(36:02):
sometimes is that we expectchildren to know how to navigate
their big feelings and notoverreact and not have these
outbursts and you know what Imean and express themselves and
you know what I mean in theappropriate manner.
But we don't know how to dothat a lot of times, like adults
(36:29):
yeah, adults, a lot of us, we,there are just a whole bunch of
dysregulated adults just walkingaround with minimal emotional
intelligence, with minimalconnection and awareness to
themselves and off themselves toeven figure out how they're
(36:53):
feeling half the time or evenacknowledge how they're feeling.
A lot of us have no idea whatto do with our emotions, idea
what to do with our emotions,and we too have outbursts.
Or it might not show up asextreme as a three-year-old or a
five-year-old's emotion, but itdoes show up in other ways.
(37:16):
It show up maybe in a passive,aggressive way, or just you
being a complete asshole tosomeone.
Jennifer Ginty (37:23):
that really didn't deserve it.
Kertia (37:25):
You know what I mean.
So, and that's how it shows up.
It shows up in other ways, andI don't know why we have these
huge expectations of these tinyhumans when we still can't get
our shit together as adults.
Jennifer Ginty (37:41):
Absolutely, I 100% agree.
As adults, absolutely, I 100%agree.
And you know, as I was sayingabout, like the shame spiral, we
also live in a cycle ofemotions.
We start off with what like lit, that first emotion, and then
(38:06):
we may move to a secondaryemotion and cause a big stir and
then go to that shame, and thenit just starts to happen again
and again, and again and we getourselves into these cycles that
really aren't necessary becausethey're putting a lot more
stress on us than I think weeven realize.
You know may not even beputting any stress on the other
person if there is aninterpersonal communication
issue, but you're causingyourself emotional pain.
Kertia (38:29):
Yeah.
Jennifer Ginty (38:31):
So I think it's really important that we all
start to learn these skills thatare going to give ourselves the
grace that we need to stop thatcycle.
Kertia (38:51):
Absolutely, and I want to ask you what coping
mechanisms do you currently useto help you manage your PTSD and
depression?
Jennifer Ginty (38:59):
Well, I do use a lot of my DBT skills that I've
learned over the years and Ihighly recommend that people
look into DBT.
There's an actual workbook.
It's a huge workbook but it hasall of the skills in there and
how to use them.
Worksheets, all this kind ofthing, but the ones that I use
the most.
As we talked about before,check the facts I also have.
(39:21):
They also give you a lot ofgreat physical um skills that
you can learn.
I learned I actually learned umat mclean hospital, this great
uh physical coping skill whereyou get this crayola model magic
and you put um essential oilsin it and then you squish it up
(39:42):
and around so it gives you ohthere's a video about it on
YouTube as well that you knowit's this kind of modeling clay
that you can pull apart.
It's kind of like slime, butthen you put the essential oil
in and you can smell it, you canfeel it and it takes your brain
(40:02):
out of that current distressbecause you're using your senses
to take you out.
So I did that.
I also have, like there's afrozen washcloth thing that you
can do if you have to takeyourself out of the distress
where you go and you grab it andyou work on pulling it apart
and it's really hard becauseit's a wet frozen washcloth.
(40:25):
So you can have physical tricks.
You can have coping skills thatyou can bring with you, coping
skills that you can use in themoment, and there's so many of
them that not all of them aregoing to work for you, but some
of them will and it's freeing.
It's freeing to know that youhave a toolbox of skills to help
(40:48):
you through it.
Other really good ones for,like interpersonal communication
, is there's one called Dear manand it's like a.
You know, a dear man spells outa bunch of different skills
that you can use, or you knowthe way that you work through
that coping skill and it reallyhelps you to be able to calm
(41:13):
yourself in the situation butalso advocate for yourself.
Not backing down, not beingafraid to say no or to say no
this is what I need you know.
So that's another great tool Ihighly recommend taking a look
at if you have a lot of problemswith standing up for yourself
(41:34):
in situations.
Kertia (41:36):
Yeah.
Jennifer Ginty (41:36):
Because it's saying don't cause more strife
between you, but also you have a, you have a need.
You can communicate that needand not back down from it in a
in a positive way.
So that's another great skillthat I absolutely love to do.
Kertia (41:56):
That is so good.
I saw you talking about thedare man on your YouTube video
and that was such I was justthinking this is so cool and it
actually helps to take you outof your head right, to take you
out of that head space and tolike, really get you thinking
about the scenario as itactually is, not just based on
(42:22):
your own perception, becausesometimes when we have
misunderstandings that lead tothese huge emotions, a lot of
that is just based on ourperception.
You know we all perceive thesame situation in a different
way.
Of course, yeah, you are validin your anger.
You are valid in your pain,like whatever emotion you're
(42:44):
feeling are valid in your anger.
You are valid in your pain,like whatever emotion you're
feeling.
It's completely valid, but it'sjust to kind of get you working
through the emotion.
I thought that was a reallygood tool to just work through,
work with and work through it,right.
So, yeah, I definitely lovethat that.
That is a good, that's a reallygood tool.
(43:06):
Where can people find that dptresource?
Jennifer Ginty (43:12):
so they're all over the internet.
If you look up dbt, you canfind a lot of great um, a lot of
great pages, a lot of greatpeople that talk about it online
and talk about the differentskills.
But the workbook that MarshaLinehan, the person who created
DBT, has available is on Amazonand I think it's only like $24.
(43:34):
And it's a humongous book ofall the skills goes through and
one of the things I do in mymoody talks every month.
The beginning is I talk aboutthe words that describe an
emotion and putting them on ascale of intensity.
So you understand if you saythis word out loud like I'm so
(43:55):
blah, blah, blah.
Whatever that it shows, itshows the intensity of how you
feel and in that book it givesyou all of the words that
describe each and every emotion,gives you all of the body
sensations that you may feelwhen you're in that emotion.
So it's full of a lot of greatinformation and I can send you
(44:23):
the name of that book.
Kertia (44:26):
Yeah, that'll be great If you want to put it in as a
resource.
And it's on.
Jennifer Ginty (44:30):
Amazon.
Like I said, I think it's like$24, but it's packed full of
information.
Kertia (44:37):
That workbook.
Is there one specific forchildren, or can the same thing
be used for kids?
Jennifer Ginty (44:45):
I wouldn't be.
I don't think that it would begood for kids, but there may be
kid resources out there for it.
And you know what that lights?
A flame under me to see what Ican find as children's resources
.
Yeah that's really important.
Kertia (45:02):
That could be really cool.
I mean, there should besomething.
I'm not sure because I haven'tdone the research myself on that
yet, but you know, when you'retalking about naming the emotion
and and things like that andputting it on a scale, I can.
I can.
I can see something existingsomewhere in similarity or
(45:27):
inspired by that for children.
I'm pretty sure something likethat is out there.
So I'm definitely going to lookinto that and see if I can find
anything and also put that as aresource in the show notes.
Jennifer Ginty (45:42):
I think that would be pretty cool as well,
and you know what, if thereisn't one, I'll make one.
That's something that I wouldlove to put together, actually,
I think that's a fantastic idea.
I started.
Kertia (45:54):
Moody.
Jennifer Ginty (45:54):
Talks off because I didn't have the
product and I was like, well,how do I keep everything up in
social media with people seeingand understanding?
So I was like, well, how do Ikeep everything up in social
media with people seeing andunderstanding?
So I was like.
Kertia (46:06):
Well, why don't I teach my skills, the skills that I've
?
Jennifer Ginty (46:08):
learned over the years and so it's kind of based
on my adult you know viewpointof it.
But yeah, there are a lot ofand you know what.
There are child psychologists,I'm sure, who use DBT for
children.
Kertia (46:21):
Of course that have been through trauma so yeah,
yeah, so yeah, of course, I'msure it's more appropriate for
them to understand, you know,like using more simplistic terms
to name their emotions andthings like that.
You know that are moreappropriate to their age, so I'm
pretty sure that they do use it.
I'm just not sure if they havephysical material out there for
(46:43):
children using DBT.
Jennifer Ginty (46:45):
So I'm definitely going to research
that.
Yeah, I have a friend whosedaughter is a teenager and she
found DBT to be really, reallygood for her.
So, as a teenager, I think sheprobably ended up using more of
the adult resources andmaterials, up using more of the
(47:06):
adults, you know, like resourcesand materials.
But, yeah, teenagers are usingthe DBT workbook that they've
created for adults and, yeah,there has to be an adaptation
for children.
Kertia (47:15):
Yeah, there needs to be .
If there isn't yet, yeah, yeah.
Jennifer Ginty (47:20):
I will take that on Right, you should.
Kertia (47:25):
You definitely should.
That would be so cool.
Is there anything else that youwould like to share about your
experience, your insights,anything that could be helpful
to survivors out there?
Jennifer Ginty (47:42):
Yes.
Kertia (47:42):
Yeah.
Jennifer Ginty (47:43):
Healing is not linear.
I say this to myself every day.
Healing is not a straight line,and always give yourself grace
in those times where you feellike you've taken a bunch of
steps back, because that's justthe way that our brains, our
(48:06):
situations, that's what we'reput into as a human being.
Don't think that you've, youknow, not gotten far enough with
your healing, because healingnot only is not linear, but it's
not immediate and it's not even.
I mean, as I've said, I'malmost 50 years old and I've
(48:26):
been working through this sinceI was 13.
There's always things to learn.
There's always ways, new waysthat you can learn to cope with.
The old ways aren't.
Don't give up on yourself.
Never, ever, give up onyourself.
There is always a way to moveforward and it's okay if it
(48:47):
feels like you've moved back.
Kertia (48:50):
You know, we have this thing where we get so hard on
ourselves because we're like Ithought I already worked through
this.
You know, I thought I wasgetting better and then suddenly
you have one bad day and thenthat completely throws you off
and now you feel like you'vetaken 10 steps back, when
(49:11):
actually we're just having a badday.
And you know, because you'rehealing it doesn't mean that
you're fully healed and you kindof go all over the place
sometimes.
Sometimes you have a great fewmonths or even a great year, and
then the new year comes andyou're a mess, yep.
Jennifer Ginty (49:31):
It all goes to shit.
Kertia (49:33):
Yeah, so it happens that way and just to remind
people to be gentle withthemselves and have compassion
with themselves and, as you said, healing is not linear, it can
be up, down and sideways on anygiven day and it's just to
remember to be patient and don'tbe hard on yourself.
Jennifer Ginty (49:55):
It's a rollercoaster, baby.
Yeah, it's a rollercoaster.
Kertia (49:59):
Don't be hard on yourself, and you still have a
lot more to learn and a long wayto go, and there are more good
things to come, even when itdoesn't feel like it.
Jennifer Ginty (50:13):
Absolutely.
Kertia (50:20):
If you'd like to support our work, you can join
our Patreon community or make aone-time donation.
Follow the breadcrumbs in thelinks below.
Until next time.
This conversation that I had with Jennifer Ginty, a
mental health advocate, coversthe topic of childhood abuse,
and what I'd hope for you totake away from this conversation
is becoming aware of complexPTSD, which stands for complex
post-traumatic stress disorder,and to be aware of how it shows
(00:22):
up in our lives, in our bodiesand in how we experience and
deal with our emotions.
Now, complex PTSD is differentfrom PTSD that most of us are
already aware of in that, whilePTSD deals with the mental
disorder that results fromcing aspecific traumatic event that
(00:43):
is, a single event, for example,like a car crash, complex PTSD
is the result of a personexperiencing repeated trauma
over a long period of time,trauma that is a part of your
daily life that can last formonths or even years or even
(01:08):
years.
So this conversation gives aperfect example of CPTSD because
it addresses a repeated,prolonged trauma, that is,
childhood sexual abuse.
Now, while symptoms of bothPTSD and complex PTSD can
overlap, it is important tounderstand that complex PTSD is
harder to identify and treatbecause the circumstances that
(01:30):
led to the presentation of thesymptoms are not always obvious.
So, because of that, cptsd isoften misdiagnosed as ADHD,
depression, bipolar disorder, asADHD, depression, bipolar
disorder, anxiety and othermental health disorders.
Now, some examples of howcomplex PTSD might affect you
(01:53):
are the ability to pay attention, difficulty regulating your
emotions.
You might have angry outburstsor periods of intense sadness.
You may disassociate completely, tuning out of the environment
around you.
You may experience sleepdisorders, lack of trust in
(02:15):
relationships, even when theperson has not proven to be
untrustworthy, and you mighteven try to avoid relationships.
You may also have a pattern ofbeing in unhealthy relationships
.
You may experience lowself-worth, having a persistent
(02:36):
negative perception of yourself,and you may even self-harm.
You may engage in high-riskbehaviors and you may also
experience hypervigilance, likeyou're always on edge, or maybe
you're always expecting orwaiting for something bad to
happen, as well as having thepersistent belief that people
(02:59):
are bad and that the world is anunsafe place.
So these are just a few symptoms, a few examples of how complex
PTSD can show up in your life,in your body, in your ability to
emotionally regulate and inyour mindset.
(03:22):
And these are all stressresponses that occur because our
brain, our bodies, are in thatstate of trying to protect us.
So I urge you to follow up onthis with your own research, and
I've given you a head start byabuse.
(03:44):
That's a touch in that a littlebit.
I'd like to know what were thefears that came up for you when
(04:07):
you were going through that.
Jennifer Ginty (04:10):
Okay, yep, so my abuser was my father, and you
expect a parent to take care oftheir children rather than to
instill fear and anger toinstill fear and anger.
(04:30):
So during the time that I wasgrowing up, I was always in fear
of, you know, messing up insome way or even getting into a
fight with my brothers, becausemy brothers would get a lot of
you know the abuse and I wouldfeel terrible about it.
So I would like throw myself ontop of my brothers to stop it.
And you know so.
There was a lot of fearthroughout my daily life and it
(04:53):
didn't stop when it all came out.
So my brother told his tutorabout the abuse and the you know
the everything happened.
My father left, but we neverfelt safe because there were
really no guards there for us.
He was supposed to stay away,but he really didn't.
(05:15):
He'd come over and continue toput fear into us, even after we
had talked about it and hadstarted a criminal suit against
him.
So the fear was very, verypotent during that time and it
(05:37):
causes, when you're in, complexPTSD, which means that you're
living your trauma day by day,as opposed to PTSD, which could
be one or two situations thathappen, that cause it.
Complex PTSD is that you'resteeped in your trauma, in your
(05:58):
fear, and coming out of mychildhood I learned that showing
fear was not acceptable.
So I would go to a secondaryemotion and it would be anger.
So my primary emotion would befear, but because I couldn't
show fear, especially in asituation with an abuser, my
(06:23):
next emotion would be anger andI would use that to hide the
fear that I had.
And it continued past when myabuser left our home, into
college, into my 20s, work life,that kind of thing.
When you're steeped in it forso long, you don't automatically
(06:47):
say, okay, well, I don't haveto fear this anymore.
It's in your brain, it's inyour body.
Your body is feeling that sametrauma.
Um, and it can be like that.
You know, it could be a snapand it would come back without
any true, you know, truenecessity.
(07:07):
Even so, fear is something thatI grew up with from the time
that I was just a little child.
I don't remember how back, butyou know, probably since I was a
toddler up until I was afreshman in high school, living
with my offender.
Kertia (07:29):
That is really tough.
I experienced a some level ofchildhood abuse as well.
For me was being blamed, beingblamed for what happened to me
(07:52):
and being punished for it, andit doesn't make sense.
You know, I was raped.
I was a child, I was eightyears old and my cousin was much
older and I was thinking likeI'm going to be the one that's
(08:13):
in trouble.
You know, it's kind of weirdthinking about it, because the
opposite of that makes sense,but in my brain at the time I
thought that I would have beenthe one that would be held
responsible for this.
You know, my family dynamicswasn't the greatest at the time
(08:37):
either, so I didn't feel safetrusting to tell an adult about
the abuse that I experienced.
I didn't have a trusted adultthat I could explain this to.
My relationships at the timewith my mom and my stepdad was
(09:01):
very precarious.
It was unstable in a lot ofways even at that time.
So I didn't have an avenue tokind of express myself and
really be open about what washappening and what was going
(09:24):
through.
I remember thinking, even by thetime I was a couple years later
, let's say between the ages ofnine, nine, 10, 11, you know,
and you start learning aboutbody parts and sex at in school.
I remember another thing thatcame up for me is just like oh
(09:47):
my God, like this person couldhave given me an STD.
Now imagine a regular child atthat age, between the ages of
nine and 11.
You want to play, you want tohave fun, you want to do all the
things Right, and my mostimportant concern at the time
(10:12):
was I hope I didn't have an STDfrom what occurred.
Jennifer Ginty (10:18):
Wow yeah, a few years back.
That's strong, that's strongand that's it's so scary.
Kertia (10:26):
Yeah, and that was a huge fear for me as a child and
so I always grew up having eveninto adulthood, I was always
that person that I was alwaysgetting tested.
You know what I mean?
I always wanted to be testedfor STDs, I wanted.
I was so paranoid, I was alwaysparanoid, like I carried around
(10:48):
this paranoia for years, right,so my fear, it didn't show up.
You know, yours showed up asthat secondary emotion, anger,
but mine showed up as a hugeparanoia around my body, right,
and a huge fear of men.
(11:11):
You know, I grew up beingafraid of men and I didn't
realize that until I was in myadult relationships, my intimate
relationships as an adult, myadult relationships, my intimate
relationships as an adult Ididn't realize that I had a fear
, a deep fear of men.
(11:31):
Until, you know, whenever wehad issues in those
relationships, when we will havearguments and things like that,
my mind will go to this personcould hurt me or I will have a
fear that they will hurt me insome way.
And I didn't startunderstanding where this fear
(11:55):
came from until I remembered theabuse as a child, because it
didn't happen one time, ithappened a few times.
So for me, that is how my fearshowed up, right, A fear around
what will happen in relation tomy family dynamics.
What would the parents do?
What would my aunts, how wouldthey react?
(12:15):
Will they say that?
I remember one of the reasonswhy I had that fear about
telling my family is becauseanother little girl had
complained that this man touchedher and she was completely
(12:37):
invalidated.
Right, he completely flat outdenied it, said she was lying
and that she's a liar.
She was 12 at the time.
I remember she was 12.
She said that he touched her.
He completely denied it, calledher a liar and everyone
(13:14):
believed him.
So there was that too.
Yep, right, so no one believedher.
Yep, right, so no one believedher.
So how are they going tobelieve me?
Right, and men, and then thefear of what is happening in my
(13:34):
body as a result of this.
So that was mine.
It's really heavy and that'swhy I asked, because I want to
know, because you know, we seethese things all the time in TV
and the news and you hear peoplecoming out saying, oh, this
(14:01):
person raped me 20 years ago,and a lot of the times like,
yeah, we know that there arepeople who come out and you,
they tell false stories, but alot of it is also true, right,
and those people come to getinvolved.
Yeah, and those people actuallyget invalidated a lot of the
times, but from a standpoint ofsomeone who I didn't tell my
(14:23):
family about this until justbefore COVID.
Jennifer Ginty (14:28):
Okay.
Kertia (14:29):
And this happened when I was eight and I'm 35 this year
.
Jennifer Ginty (14:33):
That's a long time to sit with it and, you
know, not get validation fromthe people who were supposed to
be protecting you.
Kertia (14:41):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Jennifer Ginty (14:45):
And that's what gets me so upset about there's
right now currently they're inmy in my state there's a uh a
case where a daughter went tothe hospital and um reported on
her father and the court endedup giving the father full
(15:05):
custody of the two daughters andno custody to the mother.
And this is the type of thingthat really gets a fire under me
and starts up that advocacypart for me, because I went
through so much in that systemwhen I was 13 years old until I
(15:27):
was 19.
It took that long to put myfather in prison and he only
spent four years there.
So there was a point where Ihad to go in front of a grand
jury and talk about explicitsexual abuse for me to be
believed that he touched me,that he hurt me, that he harmed
(15:51):
his own daughter, and at onepoint one of the lawyers asked
us to not report a certain likephysical abuse.
That happened because theydidn't think that it would help
the case.
But it happened, it was real.
Why would we not say that thatwas real?
(16:16):
You're turning it around andsaying that we were lying about
something that very muchhappened and very much hurt us
as children.
They just wanted an easy win iswhat it came down to.
And my state has lousy, andthat was the 90s, that was the
(16:37):
early 90s, and what I just toldyou is happening right now is
still happening in my state andit's straight up disgusting.
So it lights a fire under me toget out there and to advocate
for children and to believechildren when they say that
something that serious hashappened to them.
(16:58):
Do you really think a child isgoing to be able to make that up
unless it's being fed to them,which most times that is not the
case at all?
Yeah, I'd say a very small,small percentage of children
have been coached on what to say, so children need to be
(17:22):
believed when they say something.
They're not making this up,because how can a child make
that up?
They don't know that right?
So I think it's very importantthat we get that word out there,
that children don't lie aboutthe things that happen to them,
(17:42):
and to believe them.
Kertia (17:45):
Yeah, so true on all different levels.
You touched on complex PTSD,right.
I want you to talk a little bitabout that and how, because I
know it shows up.
Of course it shows updifferently for everyone, right?
But from your experience withit, how can it show up for you?
(18:09):
How did it show up for a verylong time and I was completely
unaware of it, like I didn'tknow.
I had no idea that I wasexperiencing complex PTSD until
(18:36):
I came across it by chancesomewhere.
So I kind of want you to getinto that a little bit so that I
don't know.
Maybe if there is someone elseout there experiencing complex
PTSD and they're completelyunaware of it, then this might
give them some insight.
Jennifer Ginty (18:53):
Absolutely so.
I'm blessed to live close toone of the premier mental health
hospitals in the country McLeanHospital and I have spent
inpatient there and I've alsodone outpatient therapy there in
groups.
And the first time I was taughtabout complex PTSD as opposed
(19:16):
to PTSD, the social worker thatI was working with really gave a
great definition of the two,and so what she had told me PTSD
picture that you were in a caraccident and it was a really,
really, really bad accident andyou had the fear afterwards that
(19:37):
would happen again.
You didn't want to get into acar again.
You didn't want to drive again.
You didn't want to get intothat situation again.
You didn't want to get into acar again.
You didn't want to drive again.
You didn't want to get intothat situation again.
That is a type of PTSD, and thattype of PTSD over the years can
be lessened, it can be copedwith, Whereas complex PTSD is
(20:01):
that you've been steeped in yourtrauma.
You have lived in that traumafor years.
That could be childhood, thatcould be domestic violence, that
could be military, that couldbe very many different
situations.
So that's how I was taught.
(20:23):
What complex PTSD is is thatit's pretty much in your bones,
it's in your body, it's in yourhead, it's in all the places
that are our lizard brain,because that's what we were
taught every day.
And you had asked me about howI felt as a child, the fear that
I felt.
Well, that fear was an everydaything, that pretty much just
(20:45):
seeped into my body.
And I don't know if you've everheard of the book the Body
Keeps the Score.
That is pretty much complexPTSD.
Your body is living that traumaover and over because it lived
it every day for a good periodof time.
So complex PTSD is.
(21:09):
It's really a whole differentanimal in the end.
That I don't even think hasbeen fully realized.
I think it's kind of new topeople because I never heard the
term complex PTSD untilprobably six or seven years ago
and it's not even a validdiagnosis.
(21:30):
Ptsd is the diagnosis andcomplex is just something that
psychologists, psychiatrists,therapists use to determine and
differentiate between the two.
Yeah, so it's.
I think that's a reallyimportant thing to understand
for people that complex PTSD,and when people use that term,
(21:54):
it means that this person haslived a significant portion of
their life in fear, in trauma.
So when you ask, how does itshow up?
For me.
It shows up for me in the sensethat I second guess myself a
lot.
I fear that I am making thewrong decision when, if I use my
(22:21):
intuition correctly, I'm doingwhat needs to be done for me,
for my children, for whoever isinvolved in there.
But that fear shows up in thebackground of am I, you know, am
I choosing the right thing?
Am I good enough to make adecision the right thing?
(22:47):
Am I good enough to make adecision?
Because I was told as a child,I was told almost daily from my
abuser you're fat, you're uglyand no one loves you.
So to hear that for a goodportion of your life, it comes
up in your regular everyday lifein that sense of second
guessing yourself mistrust.
You don't trust anyone in yourlife, even if they've proven to
(23:11):
you over and over again that youcan trust them.
So I think that the fear for meis always in that background,
always on, and it's a part of methat I need to heal.
So I work with family systems,internal family systems, and we
(23:37):
talk about different parts ofyourself and there's a part of
me that holds on to that fearand doesn't let go of it and
needs to be talked to and, youknow, made to feel safe.
Kertia (23:54):
Yeah.
Jennifer Ginty (23:55):
And when we do that, which I continue to do
I've been doing this for yearsand years and years.
Like I told you before, I'malmost 50 this year and I still
work.
I have to work really hard.
I was with my therapistyesterday and I was doing EMDR
work for trauma and it wasreally hard and it sat with me
for the rest of the day.
(24:16):
It's complex.
It's complex in the sense thatit can show up at any time, it
can sneak up on you, it canblast right into your face.
Kertia (24:38):
And you have to learn the skills that feel right to
you to cope with.
Yeah, exactly that, Becausethat is something that I've
experienced as well.
That fear never left me right.
I just found better ways todeal with it or found a way to
move through it.
Or sometimes I need someoneelse to help me to move through
(25:03):
it, Right?
Jennifer Ginty (25:03):
So yeah, I totally get that Finding that
trust.
The person that you trust themost to do that too is.
I mean, this is I've gonethrough therapists throughout
the years, but my therapist isthe therapist you know.
I trust her.
I know she's not going to letme get away with anything, which
is awesome, right, becausesometimes you try to run away
(25:25):
from it or you try to cover itup and she knows how to call me
on it and I trust her for that.
She's not feeding me any lines.
She's not telling me it's allokay.
She's telling me the truth andthat's what helps me to trust
her telling me the truth, andthat's what helps me to trust
(25:49):
her.
Kertia (25:49):
It's so helpful when you can find that therapist that
you click with, because ittakes sometimes it takes a while
, and I know it's easy to giveup and say you know some people
they go to therapy the firsttime or maybe even the first
three times and they don't feellike it's a match and they feel
like, oh well, therapy is notfor me, it's never going to work
for me and sometimes really,you just haven't found the right
(26:12):
therapist.
Sometimes you just haven't foundsomeone that you really connect
with and it's just trial anderror.
So I definitely encourageanyone who is experiencing any
sort of trauma or PTSD or mentalhealth challenges to definitely
seek therapy.
I love that you also mentionedanger as your secondary emotion,
(26:41):
as your secondary emotion.
I don't think a lot of peopleare aware that some of the
emotions that present themselvesoutwardly, that are visible,
that are more visible to us,that sometimes or most of the
times, actually it is secondaryto the actual emotion, the real,
(27:05):
true emotion that you'refeeling.
Can you just touch on that alittle bit and give us some
insights on that?
Jennifer Ginty (27:11):
Absolutely so.
This is what I learned from atherapy called DBT dialectical
behavioral therapy and it is atherapy that was created for
people with PTSD, and one of themain coping skills that they
have is called check the facts.
So this is how I learned aboutprimary and secondary emotions.
(27:35):
So checking the facts is a wayto look at the situation without
an emotion attached to it,exactly what happened and
matching the emotion that goeswith the actual facts.
So if I'm feeling anger in asituation where I'm actually, I
(27:56):
just felt fear and my secondaryemotion clicked in and said no,
no, no, no, no.
That's not acceptable.
You can't feel fear.
You can't show fear.
You're going to show anger.
You're going to feel angerabout this.
It's protective Secondaryemotions are 100% a protection
that your brain has to get youaway from the much more
(28:20):
traumatizing emotion that you'vehad with it.
So it's really important tounderstand that the situation
fits the emotion that you feel.
I have a couple of differentYouTube videos about checking
the facts and it comes withworksheets and all that kind of
stuff, because it's my numberone favorite.
Kertia (28:44):
I saw that I watched your.
Yeah, I checked out yoursession with Moody Monster.
Jennifer Ginty (28:51):
First of all, I want to talk about that for a
little bit my Moody Monster andhow that idea came about.
For you, of course, yes.
So this is my passion project.
I love my Moody Monster so much.
(29:11):
So one day I was in atherapeutic group.
I was really, really frustratedwith my symptoms, my PTSD
symptoms, my depression and Isaid I wish I had a monster that
I could rip apart and throwacross the room and bang against
the furniture.
And the people in the groupwere like, yeah, you should have
that.
So I went home and I reallykind of thought about it and I
am not a seamstress, I am not atailor but I pulled out fabric
(29:36):
and I put together this crazylooking monster.
And what I did with the monsterwas I made all of their parts
rippable so you'd be able totear the whole body apart the
arms, the legs, the head and beable to do whatever you would
need to get out, get all of thatfrustration out, and then, when
(29:57):
you put them back together, youcan think about what happened
and you know what?
What skill can I use next time?
That may work better in thissituation.
And I really thought it might bea great tool for children,
because children so when I was akid and I know most people I
talked to who weren't even intraumatic situations in their
(30:19):
childhood were always told tohide their feelings.
Don't be an angry girl, don'tget people upset, don't, you
know, make people uncomfortablewith your emotions, and that's
just, you know telling childrento shove them all down.
And that's where people canmost of the time come up with
(30:40):
secondary emotions because ofthat being pushed, all of their
emotion being pushed down,because they've been told by
adults that they're not allowedto feel that in public.
So I thought that Moody would bea great toy a great, you know
tool for children to be able toget that physical frustration
(31:01):
out in a safe way and then beable to talk to their caregiver,
their parent, your teacher,therapist, whoever they need to
talk to about it, talk aboutwhat happened, what they can do
next time to feel lessfrustrated.
And it took me a while.
It's been four years that I'vebeen working on Moody.
I ended up going into anaccelerator program and really
(31:25):
building up the brand and Iabsolutely am so happy with the
final product, and families,therapists, teachers, have had a
great experience with them aswell.
Kertia (31:40):
I love it.
I absolutely love it becauseit's so important for kids.
My daughter she has hugeemotions and I can just imagine
what that would do for asituation when your child is
just completely dysregulated andthey're experiencing these big
(32:00):
emotions and they're having thisoutburst.
And it's hard as a parent.
You get frustrated as wellbecause you kind of feel
helpless, you're not sure how torespond.
And this is so helpful because,as you said, when they can rip
the monster apart and you canhelp them.
Even you told me the last timeputting that monster back
(32:22):
together and then using that asa tool to also communicate
better, right, and as a tool toactually express the emotion
that the child is experiencing.
So I really, really love that.
Yeah, how do you think you knowfrom your experience with
(32:44):
therapy, with creative, moodyand even as a mom, right how can
we communicate our feelingsbetter, especially when it comes
with our kids?
How can we make that work?
Jennifer Ginty (32:59):
Well, I think, first of all, we need to have
our own coping skills.
When it comes to frustration,and I think that's I wish that I
had had the coping skills thatI have now when my children were
smaller, because my oldest hada lot of behavioral problems.
He was, you know, he was very.
(33:20):
He had big physical outbursts.
You know, he was very.
He had big physical outburstsand afterwards he would get this
shame spiral because he haddone this physical damage to
property or whatever hisproperty, my property doesn't
matter and then he felt terribleabout it, he felt awful, and
that was, I think, something.
(33:42):
That's where shame comes in andthat's where toxic shame comes
in, and that's a whole otherthing we could talk about.
So I think it's important and Ithink toxic shame is another
big thing in parenting as well,where we feel badly all the time
that we're not a good parent,yeah, so I think that it's most
important for parents to havetheir coping skills before they
(34:06):
can even start helping theirchildren with that.
And that comes down to hey,maybe you rip apart Moody,
because also you're showing thebehavior that.
Yeah, I'm angry right now andI'm taking it out the way that
I'm supposed to.
Kertia (34:22):
Yeah.
Jennifer Ginty (34:23):
So I think that, yeah, I think parents need to
understand that all of theirchildren's feelings are valid,
and they have to understand thatabout themselves as well and
give themselves grace, and thenthey're able to help their
children in the same respect.
They can teach them the copingskills that work for them, or
(34:45):
they can find other copingskills for them.
But, moody's a great like jumpoff board to be able to talk to
your kids about what happened,why they are feeling the way
they're feeling and what can wedo next time to make you not
feel so badly.
Kertia (35:06):
I love Moody Monster, so can you just quickly tell the
listeners where they can getMoody?
Jennifer Ginty (35:12):
Absolutely, so.
You can get Moody on my websiteat mymoodymonstercom, and you
can also buy him throughFacebook or Instagram, so
they're available in that way aswell.
They also come with their ownbag, their backpack, to carry
(35:33):
them around with.
Maybe your kid ripped themapart, doesn't want to put them
back together again, throw themin that bag.
And it comes with a coloringbook about feelings and how
Moody can help.
Kertia (35:42):
I love that.
That's fantastic.
That's fantastic.
That is such a great tool.
It's such a great tool to justget those big feelings out,
especially for kids and even foradults.
Because, honestly, you know, thething that boggles my mind
(36:02):
sometimes is that we expectchildren to know how to navigate
their big feelings and notoverreact and not have these
outbursts and you know what Imean and express themselves and
you know what I mean in theappropriate manner.
But we don't know how to dothat a lot of times, like adults
(36:29):
yeah, adults, a lot of us, we,there are just a whole bunch of
dysregulated adults just walkingaround with minimal emotional
intelligence, with minimalconnection and awareness to
themselves and off themselves toeven figure out how they're
(36:53):
feeling half the time or evenacknowledge how they're feeling.
A lot of us have no idea whatto do with our emotions, idea
what to do with our emotions,and we too have outbursts.
Or it might not show up asextreme as a three-year-old or a
five-year-old's emotion, but itdoes show up in other ways.
(37:16):
It show up maybe in a passive,aggressive way, or just you
being a complete asshole tosomeone.
Jennifer Ginty (37:23):
that really didn't deserve it.
Kertia (37:25):
You know what I mean.
So, and that's how it shows up.
It shows up in other ways, andI don't know why we have these
huge expectations of these tinyhumans when we still can't get
our shit together as adults.
Jennifer Ginty (37:41):
Absolutely, I 100% agree.
As adults, absolutely, I 100%agree.
And you know, as I was sayingabout, like the shame spiral, we
also live in a cycle ofemotions.
We start off with what like lit, that first emotion, and then
(38:06):
we may move to a secondaryemotion and cause a big stir and
then go to that shame, and thenit just starts to happen again
and again, and again and we getourselves into these cycles that
really aren't necessary becausethey're putting a lot more
stress on us than I think weeven realize.
You know may not even beputting any stress on the other
person if there is aninterpersonal communication
issue, but you're causingyourself emotional pain.
Kertia (38:29):
Yeah.
Jennifer Ginty (38:31):
So I think it's really important that we all
start to learn these skills thatare going to give ourselves the
grace that we need to stop thatcycle.
Kertia (38:51):
Absolutely, and I want to ask you what coping
mechanisms do you currently useto help you manage your PTSD and
depression?
Jennifer Ginty (38:59):
Well, I do use a lot of my DBT skills that I've
learned over the years and Ihighly recommend that people
look into DBT.
There's an actual workbook.
It's a huge workbook but it hasall of the skills in there and
how to use them.
Worksheets, all this kind ofthing, but the ones that I use
the most.
As we talked about before,check the facts I also have.
(39:21):
They also give you a lot ofgreat physical um skills that
you can learn.
I learned I actually learned umat mclean hospital, this great
uh physical coping skill whereyou get this crayola model magic
and you put um essential oilsin it and then you squish it up
(39:42):
and around so it gives you ohthere's a video about it on
YouTube as well that you knowit's this kind of modeling clay
that you can pull apart.
It's kind of like slime, butthen you put the essential oil
in and you can smell it, you canfeel it and it takes your brain
(40:02):
out of that current distressbecause you're using your senses
to take you out.
So I did that.
I also have, like there's afrozen washcloth thing that you
can do if you have to takeyourself out of the distress
where you go and you grab it andyou work on pulling it apart
and it's really hard becauseit's a wet frozen washcloth.
(40:25):
So you can have physical tricks.
You can have coping skills thatyou can bring with you, coping
skills that you can use in themoment, and there's so many of
them that not all of them aregoing to work for you, but some
of them will and it's freeing.
It's freeing to know that youhave a toolbox of skills to help
(40:48):
you through it.
Other really good ones for,like interpersonal communication
, is there's one called Dear manand it's like a.
You know, a dear man spells outa bunch of different skills
that you can use, or you knowthe way that you work through
that coping skill and it reallyhelps you to be able to calm
(41:13):
yourself in the situation butalso advocate for yourself.
Not backing down, not beingafraid to say no or to say no
this is what I need you know.
So that's another great tool Ihighly recommend taking a look
at if you have a lot of problemswith standing up for yourself
(41:34):
in situations.
Kertia (41:36):
Yeah.
Jennifer Ginty (41:36):
Because it's saying don't cause more strife
between you, but also you have a, you have a need.
You can communicate that needand not back down from it in a
in a positive way.
So that's another great skillthat I absolutely love to do.
Kertia (41:56):
That is so good.
I saw you talking about thedare man on your YouTube video
and that was such I was justthinking this is so cool and it
actually helps to take you outof your head right, to take you
out of that head space and tolike, really get you thinking
about the scenario as itactually is, not just based on
(42:22):
your own perception, becausesometimes when we have
misunderstandings that lead tothese huge emotions, a lot of
that is just based on ourperception.
You know we all perceive thesame situation in a different
way.
Of course, yeah, you are validin your anger.
You are valid in your pain,like whatever emotion you're
(42:44):
feeling are valid in your anger.
You are valid in your pain,like whatever emotion you're
feeling.
It's completely valid, but it'sjust to kind of get you working
through the emotion.
I thought that was a reallygood tool to just work through,
work with and work through it,right.
So, yeah, I definitely lovethat that.
That is a good, that's a reallygood tool.
(43:06):
Where can people find that dptresource?
Jennifer Ginty (43:12):
so they're all over the internet.
If you look up dbt, you canfind a lot of great um, a lot of
great pages, a lot of greatpeople that talk about it online
and talk about the differentskills.
But the workbook that MarshaLinehan, the person who created
DBT, has available is on Amazonand I think it's only like $24.
(43:34):
And it's a humongous book ofall the skills goes through and
one of the things I do in mymoody talks every month.
The beginning is I talk aboutthe words that describe an
emotion and putting them on ascale of intensity.
So you understand if you saythis word out loud like I'm so
(43:55):
blah, blah, blah.
Whatever that it shows, itshows the intensity of how you
feel and in that book it givesyou all of the words that
describe each and every emotion,gives you all of the body
sensations that you may feelwhen you're in that emotion.
So it's full of a lot of greatinformation and I can send you
(44:23):
the name of that book.
Kertia (44:26):
Yeah, that'll be great If you want to put it in as a
resource.
And it's on.
Jennifer Ginty (44:30):
Amazon.
Like I said, I think it's like$24, but it's packed full of
information.
Kertia (44:37):
That workbook.
Is there one specific forchildren, or can the same thing
be used for kids?
Jennifer Ginty (44:45):
I wouldn't be.
I don't think that it would begood for kids, but there may be
kid resources out there for it.
And you know what that lights?
A flame under me to see what Ican find as children's resources
.
Yeah that's really important.
Kertia (45:02):
That could be really cool.
I mean, there should besomething.
I'm not sure because I haven'tdone the research myself on that
yet, but you know, when you'retalking about naming the emotion
and and things like that andputting it on a scale, I can.
I can.
I can see something existingsomewhere in similarity or
(45:27):
inspired by that for children.
I'm pretty sure something likethat is out there.
So I'm definitely going to lookinto that and see if I can find
anything and also put that as aresource in the show notes.
Jennifer Ginty (45:42):
I think that would be pretty cool as well,
and you know what, if thereisn't one, I'll make one.
That's something that I wouldlove to put together, actually,
I think that's a fantastic idea.
I started.
Kertia (45:54):
Moody.
Jennifer Ginty (45:54):
Talks off because I didn't have the
product and I was like, well,how do I keep everything up in
social media with people seeingand understanding?
So I was like, well, how do Ikeep everything up in social
media with people seeing andunderstanding?
So I was like.
Kertia (46:06):
Well, why don't I teach my skills, the skills that I've
?
Jennifer Ginty (46:08):
learned over the years and so it's kind of based
on my adult you know viewpointof it.
But yeah, there are a lot ofand you know what.
There are child psychologists,I'm sure, who use DBT for
children.
Kertia (46:21):
Of course that have been through trauma so yeah,
yeah, so yeah, of course, I'msure it's more appropriate for
them to understand, you know,like using more simplistic terms
to name their emotions andthings like that.
You know that are moreappropriate to their age, so I'm
pretty sure that they do use it.
I'm just not sure if they havephysical material out there for
(46:43):
children using DBT.
Jennifer Ginty (46:45):
So I'm definitely going to research
that.
Yeah, I have a friend whosedaughter is a teenager and she
found DBT to be really, reallygood for her.
So, as a teenager, I think sheprobably ended up using more of
the adult resources andmaterials, up using more of the
(47:06):
adults, you know, like resourcesand materials.
But, yeah, teenagers are usingthe DBT workbook that they've
created for adults and, yeah,there has to be an adaptation
for children.
Kertia (47:15):
Yeah, there needs to be .
If there isn't yet, yeah, yeah.
Jennifer Ginty (47:20):
I will take that on Right, you should.
Kertia (47:25):
You definitely should.
That would be so cool.
Is there anything else that youwould like to share about your
experience, your insights,anything that could be helpful
to survivors out there?
Jennifer Ginty (47:42):
Yes.
Kertia (47:42):
Yeah.
Jennifer Ginty (47:43):
Healing is not linear.
I say this to myself every day.
Healing is not a straight line,and always give yourself grace
in those times where you feellike you've taken a bunch of
steps back, because that's justthe way that our brains, our
(48:06):
situations, that's what we'reput into as a human being.
Don't think that you've, youknow, not gotten far enough with
your healing, because healingnot only is not linear, but it's
not immediate and it's not even.
I mean, as I've said, I'malmost 50 years old and I've
(48:26):
been working through this sinceI was 13.
There's always things to learn.
There's always ways, new waysthat you can learn to cope with.
The old ways aren't.
Don't give up on yourself.
Never, ever, give up onyourself.
There is always a way to moveforward and it's okay if it
(48:47):
feels like you've moved back.
Kertia (48:50):
You know, we have this thing where we get so hard on
ourselves because we're like Ithought I already worked through
this.
You know, I thought I wasgetting better and then suddenly
you have one bad day and thenthat completely throws you off
and now you feel like you'vetaken 10 steps back, when
(49:11):
actually we're just having a badday.
And you know, because you'rehealing it doesn't mean that
you're fully healed and you kindof go all over the place
sometimes.
Sometimes you have a great fewmonths or even a great year, and
then the new year comes andyou're a mess, yep.
Jennifer Ginty (49:31):
It all goes to shit.
Kertia (49:33):
Yeah, so it happens that way and just to remind
people to be gentle withthemselves and have compassion
with themselves and, as you said, healing is not linear, it can
be up, down and sideways on anygiven day and it's just to
remember to be patient and don'tbe hard on yourself.
Jennifer Ginty (49:55):
It's a rollercoaster, baby.
Yeah, it's a rollercoaster.
Kertia (49:59):
Don't be hard on yourself, and you still have a
lot more to learn and a long wayto go, and there are more good
things to come, even when itdoesn't feel like it.
Jennifer Ginty (50:13):
Absolutely.
Kertia (50:20):
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