November 11, 2025 • 40 mins
Sierra Club's Military Outdoors program provides our veterans the chance to get outdoors and opportunities for community, camaraderie, and healing.
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(00:01):
On this Veteran's Day, wecelebrate honor and thank those
who served our country, and inthis episode, learn about how
our parks and public landsprovide opportunities for
community, comradery, andhealing.
Join me as we explore SierraClub's military outdoors
program.
I'm your host, Missy Rentz, andthis is the Parks podcast.
Missy Rentz (00:24):
I am really excited for this episode.
We are celebrating Veterans Daywith Sherman Neil ii.
Sherman is a US Marine Corpsveteran, and the Deputy Director
of Sierra Club's MilitaryOutdoors.
Sherman, welcome to the ParksPodcast,
Sherman Neal II (00:42):
Appreciate having me, Missy.
Missy Rentz (00:44):
Sherman.
First of all, thank you for yourservice.
Sherman Neal II (00:48):
Thank you.
Missy Rentz (00:48):
Sierra Club launched Military Outdoors, in
2006.
Can you tell me about theprogram?
Sherman Neal II (00:55):
Yes.
Appreciate about the start.
So the.
Veterans have always had a rolein the Sierra Club, from its
existence essentially.
So the first executive directorfor the Sierra Club, David
Brower, was actually an armyveteran.
He was a World War II veteranand some of their outings
involved mountaineering intraining, and he was in the 10th
(01:17):
Mountain Division.
So there's a long lineage thatgoes beyond the 20 years.
And with our celebrating 20years this year.
The program originated in 2006,and if you take yourself back to
2006, that's the peak ofoperation Iraqi Freedom,
operation, enduring Freedom, andreally a lot of real kinetic
(01:38):
action going on the battlespace.
So the pro, the program actuallybegan as the Military Families
Initiative.
And there were outings thatbrought together Military
families, outdoors andintentionally put together some
programming to, help the peoplethat were in the rear, mostly
the families.
As the Military mission evolved,the program also evolved, and so
(02:01):
from those outings that startedwe started ingraining the
program into our Sierra Clubchapters.
We have 64 chapters across thecountry, and we're actively
working.
And 12, but generally, workacross the spectrum there.
And now the program is built onthat.
The Military familiesinitiatives are now working with
(02:22):
active duty, working withveterans, and working with the
Military community generally.
And and also has added anadvocacy element to it.
So at the state level, locallevel, and federal level, we are
pushing for legislation that,you know.
Increases equitable access tothe outdoors.
A lot of the issues that, mostpeople share when it comes to
(02:43):
access are exponentially higherfor veterans just due to their
experiences physical harmsmental harms, and just
separation frankly.
And things that come with thelife.
A long explanation of, theprograms evolved to meet the
moment that, we're in as we'redoing right now.
Missy Rentz (02:59):
And so, it was to meet the need.
Which I love that there was thisawareness that the Sierra Club
saw that need.
I love that.
How did they start it?
Is it, was it just a grassrootssort of, Hey, there's a need,
let's go.
Sherman Neal II (03:14):
Yeah, so our program is nested under the
Outdoors for All Campaign at theSierra Club.
Where we're generally pushingfor equitable access to the
outdoors, we believe that everyperson has a right to enjoy
public lands and then access tothe outdoors and feel welcome in
the outdoors.
And underneath that umbrella wehad a couple predecessors that
(03:37):
go.
So in 2006, as that need or thatheightened need came due to the
kinetic nature of war at thetime there was an opportunity
from a funding standpoint, froma what the nation saw as a need
standpoint and the alignmentwith some of the goals for
outdoors for all, for theMilitary families and veterans
(03:58):
to be a part of that work.
So it was just a natural fit forus.
And it's it's been interestingto me to see how that's worked
in this Sierra Club.
No, I thought that there wouldbe, initially, to be honest, I
thought there would be sometrepidation when you're talking
about conservation, some of thethings that the Sierra Club
advocates for and what peoplesee externally and that just
(04:20):
hasn't been the case.
We've seen how seamless it isand to bring a veteran outside
and their appreciation that theyalready have.
For what the outdoors brings tothem from a sense of awe, from a
sense of peace, from a sense ofhealing, and just building
connection with other peopleoutside.
Missy Rentz (04:37):
I think it is such a beautiful program and in
researching this I have agreater appreciation for the
massive amounts of work that aredone by the Sierra Club.
And I'm gonna take a.
A little bit of a step back, Iwanna just go a little bit more
broadly on outdoor space becauseoutdoor space, nature,
adventure, they can all behealing.
(04:57):
I, in episodes have talked aboutthe parks.
I use the parks very broadly forpublic land and outdoor space.
There's a physical, mental andemotional healing that can take
place outdoors.
And whether it's like moving ourbodies or the stress hormones or
building community or whateverit is.
It's healing Science has told usthis.
Why is nature and our parks andpublic lands so valuable
(05:22):
specifically to Militarymembers?
Sherman Neal II (05:25):
That, that's a great question.
I'll say personally for me thefirst thing that comes to mind
I'm biased as a marine and.
On Monday I know we celebrateVeterans Day and that's
important to the United States,but the biggest thing to a
Marine in the Marine Corps isthe Marine Corps's birthday,
which is on November 10th everyyear going back to 1775, meaning
that this year is our 250thanniversary.
(05:47):
And I bring that up not to go toMarine Corps nostalgia, but one
of the most vivid memories Ihave as a Marine is.
I think in 2018 on my seconddeployment, I was in Western
Iraq close to the Syrian borderwith a company of Marines.
Some soldiers, some Frenchsoldiers, and I think there's
(06:11):
some Dutch soldiers, a NATOforce out there.
And one of the missions that Ihad to complete, I thought was
trivial at the time, was flyingin a birthday cake on an Osprey.
He helicopter.
To the middle of Iraq so we cancelebrate the Marine Corps
birthday and being completelyisolated with no communications.
(06:32):
Those 250 or so, men and women,coming together outside to chop
it up on a rock in balancing ourcake on that rock and.
That's the exact type of thingthat you can do outside, whether
that's your backyard, whetherthat's Yosemite, if you have the
resources, whether that's on thekayak, and you're eating m and
(06:53):
ms while you're in betweenpaddling.
And so I think that synergy isjust naturally there for
veterans.
And it just like outside, whenyou go outside and it's raining
and you're like, how did thishappen?
And it, it's miserable time.
You end up laughing about it amonth or so later.
A couple.
It's the same thing withservice.
The things that we, complainedabout, mad about questioning
(07:14):
life.
Those are the things we textabout in the group chat now.
And so it's just another spaceto do that's just a natural fit.
Missy Rentz (07:20):
It is it is funny 'cause the most.
Frustrating hikes or whatever dotend to be the ones that are the
best memory makers too, likethose that challenge us and push
us out of our comfort zones.
Sherman Neal II (07:34):
Like I said it takes some time, a little bit
more time when
Missy Rentz (07:37):
I'm sure, yeah.
Sherman Neal II (07:38):
everything else, but it's just really.
I see that.
And one of the cool things aboutthe program being nested in the
Sierra Club is, it's probablynot a mystery that my, my views
on politics, my views on, who Iam as a person, frankly, as a
Black Marine Corps officer,we're a rarity in the Marine
(08:00):
Corps.
Don't always align with things.
And so the cool thing about theprogram here is.
What we're seeing from anaffinity group standpoint, like
the intentionality in, in, whenwe talk about equitable access
and being able to find versionsof me and bring them together
one of the coolest thing aboutthe program is about 48% of our,
(08:24):
the people that we serve arewomen.
We found that out from a surveythat we did.
Women only make up about 11% ofthe veteran population right
now.
So there's something that we aredoing that makes people feel
more comfortable with the SierraClub and feel comfortable being
outside.
And right now, that's the, whenwe're talking about meeting, the
(08:44):
moment, we know the populationsthat are under threat of
erasure, facing increased mentalhealth issues.
And we're digging into why it isand how it is that we're serving
people that makes'em feelwelcome under the umbrella of
this Sierra Club, whereverthey're at.
Missy Rentz (09:02):
If there's that big of a discrepancy, are those
women coming from Militaryfamilies or are they, are there
people, are there non-Militarythat participate in the Military
Outdoor program?
Sherman Neal II (09:16):
That's a great question.
So it's an all of the above.
We see that with the servicemembers, the women that served
in the Military.
Spanning from, Vietnam era downto global War on Terrorism.
From a, I like to say, Iborrowed the tagline from USAA
saying, we serve the Militarycommunity because our outings
(09:39):
aren't limited to veterans,Military families, or active
duty.
We're not checking IDs.
In fact, we think it's.
Healthy to see those groups cometogether with their community
members.
We know that, 58% of veteranshave been diagnosed with some
type of mental health disorder.
That's about 1.2 million peopleright now at the va.
(10:01):
We know that right now the VA isoverwhelmed and we know that
there are people that want tohelp veterans.
And, using the outdoors as abackdrop allows us to bring in
service providers.
To see, our theory of changework in the outdoors and design
their own programs to complimentwhat's going on for our
(10:24):
veterans.
A good example of that is in LosAngeles.
We have a program called SierraThrives, and that is actually
run by.
A family therapist and shebrings together a cohort of
about 20 mixed members of thecommunity, whether it's
veterans, other serviceproviders, or just Sierra Club
(10:44):
members.
Educates them about their publiclands at different locations.
Gives them some training so theycan become outdoor leaders, and
then ads, some specific teachingpoints are that relate to the VE
veteran community and how toaddress their needs into their
work.
So we're trying to be a forcemultiplier in the community.
(11:04):
There.
Missy Rentz (11:04):
Wow, that's powerful.
How do you convince someone thatbeing outside is good for them?
Sherman Neal II (11:12):
There's, to me, I don't know if this is to they
correct?
Is forcibly taking them outside?
Missy Rentz (11:20):
Okay.
Sherman Neal II (11:21):
So we have to, the same way that the Marine
Corps can recruit me andconvince me that I need to go
outside to support, defend theConstitution of the United
States is the same way we needto convince people to support
and defend their own mentalhealth.
I'll, my introduction to theSierra Club I'll admit when I
left service in 2019.
(11:42):
I didn't want to have anythingto do with the Marine Corps
veteran community and theMilitary.
And it took a couple years untilconnected with one of my
colleagues now who now works forthe Sierra Club who said, Hey,
there's a spot open on thiswhitewater rafting trip on the
Salmon River with anorganization called Team River
(12:02):
Runner.
I hesitated because I was like,who am I gonna be with for five
days to go on this 50 milething?
I don't want to hear about Cstories and all that stuff.
And I signed up'cause herecruited me and took me outside
forcibly.
One of the facilitators on thattrip, his name's Lynette Bestel,
(12:23):
who's now a coworker of mine wasone of the guides.
And this job didn't exist.
I didn't know these types ofjobs existed at the time I went
on the river.
It was awesome.
It was transformational, andwhen I got back two weeks later,
I got laid off from the job thatI was working at and rather than
go into the LinkedIn rat raceand, apply for 30 jobs a day, I
(12:49):
took time and I was like, youknow what?
That was one of the coolestthings I've ever done.
I was at peace and maybe this isa sign, and then this job opened
up and so that is how I like tobelieve that I'm a model for the
ladder of engagement we wannasee and hey, if you just get'em
outside have'em spend time innature with people who empathize
(13:10):
with what they're going through.
They will fall in love with it.
I've never had or heard ofsomebody come back saying, you
know what?
I hate my experience.
Or I have heard people come backsay, it would be awesome if we
can do it this way or at thisplace.
The best part about our programis it's not rigid.
If your thing is Minnesota andice fishing, you know we can do
(13:34):
that for you.
I did that.
It's pretty cold.
It's not for everybody.
If your thing is playingcornhole in the backyard and
'cause you're a group ofveterans at a subsidized housing
conflict complex and you justwant to have a barbecue and be
in the sun, we can do that too.
And it's, going over Class fourRapids isn't for everybody.
You know That water kayakingisn't for everybody.
(13:56):
We like to design it for, themoment again for the right, the
people.
Missy Rentz (14:00):
And that's one thing I in my research and going
through kind of each of theprograms web pages and seeing
the different things that areoffered.
Sometimes it's a picnic, I thinkthat.
One of the things I'm trying tohelp people become aware of is
the outdoors isn't extreme.
It doesn't have to be.
In fact, there was research outrecently that 95% of outdoor
users are entry level or justcasually active.
(14:24):
There's only 5% that's likehardcore, mountain climbers,
bikers, whatever the case maybe.
And I loved that you're justadvocating to be outside and
what a powerful statement that.
Whatever it is about theoutdoors and the community that
you create.
A picnic might be the healingthing you need.
Or to your point, cornhole, orit could be a class five rapid,
(14:47):
which is really cool.
So does each chapter createtheir own initiatives based off
of what's needed in thosecommunities?
Or is there a set structurethat.
No matter where you are in thecountry, this is how you're
gonna experience Militaryoutdoor.
Sherman Neal II (15:04):
There is no set structure.
So the formal process is, wereach out to a chapter.
Chapter consults with, theiroutings leaders and they return
with a statement of work on thisis what we would like to do.
And all we are trying to do atthe national level is use any
(15:26):
influence that we have to helpmake what they want to do
happen.
And, that's taken a lot ofGoogling on my part to, look at
different parts, look at,different type of activities.
And frankly to check my own biasin a lot of ways when we talk
about different outings can looklike.
Like I'm in able-bodied.
I think I'm saying, I probablyhave some issues there, but what
(15:48):
does it look like to.
at an outing design for peoplethat aren't in that population
given however wide of a rangethat we serve.
And it's just been really cooland enlightening to see, our
groups in the Bay Area wherewe're working with veterans and
pole walking directly out of theva.
Whereas in other places, like Isaid, we have folks in Minnesota
(16:11):
with no jacket on, ice fishingand then going sailing or
something.
And so it's, I couldn't doeither of those activities.
I can't walk with polls and Ididn't know how to stay like, so
opportunity to learn both.
So it's truly at the discretionof the chapter and the
personalities there.
Missy Rentz (16:26):
Yeah.
I was just at a conference withthe Maryland Department of
Natural Resources and then acouple months ago I was in one
in North Carolina.
But it is really amazing thework that's being done in our
state parks for accessibility.
It's such, it's clearly such apriority.
So it's really nice to see thathappen for anybody, but
(16:47):
certainly our veterans that manyhave accessibility issues.
Sherman Neal II (16:52):
Yes, and when we talk about the.
Ladder of engagement to useorganizing terms.
It's when we advocate fortracked wheelchairs and
placement of more of those inmore parks.
And we have a veteran that getsto use one of those chairs, it
doesn't take much to, to helpthem understand like, Hey, do
(17:14):
you know how powerful your voicewould be, not just for you in
the veteran community, but forother people throughout your
community?
To just talk about what thismeant for you to be outside and
go bow hunting off a wheelchairor accessing this trail.
And that's the, I'll say mostawesome part from a leadership
standpoint is seeing thosepeople emerge just like myself
(17:38):
frankly, in getting thisposition.
And how quickly the other skillsthat they have from being a
veteran come to light in a waythat they didn't know how to use
them before.
Missy Rentz (17:48):
I bet I would be.
Like some of the outings thatI've done, I'd be, would've been
so much better off if I had aveteran.
And the experiences you all haveI think that so many of us lose
out on survival skills andflexibility and pivoting.
Because we no longer spend timeoutdoors and that's such a great
(18:08):
gift to have.
What do you think?
Are the common barriers forkeeping people from going
outside?
Sherman Neal II (18:16):
For us number one is access.
Whether that's transportation toa spot that's outdoors.
We have a report that we'regonna release in the near
future, and we took a look ateight different cities and in
places like Atlanta, inJacksonville, we found.
44% of veterans don't haveaccess to a green space within a
(18:38):
10 mile walk of their home inAtlanta and in Jacksonville.
And so once we do some mapoverlays of the communities that
are impacted the most, itdoesn't take much to show that
the transit routes which impacteverybody but impact veterans
disproportionately.
When we talk about, greencanopy, urban, green, like
(19:00):
they're the hotter areas in thetown, air quality, et cetera.
So that is from an accessstandpoint, that's the number
one thing I believe that we needto address.
First is getting to the space.
The next is when you can getthere awareness.
And like I said, I thought thatI didn't want to go in the
outdoors with these types ofgroups.
(19:21):
But that's because I wasn'taware of the Military outdoors
program, frankly or the peoplethat we partner with.
So how do we get moreinformation to more veterans in
the right place, in the righttime?
So does that mean at, whenyou're doing your out
processing, you are physicallyhanded in America of the
beautiful past, and you'rehanded a map and you're saying
(19:43):
like, Hey, in your first 10days, do this.
It will change your life andprobably change your trajectory.
On what you do when we're, howwe're marketing, there's, we
talked about going from, I thinkwe had a Korean War veteran when
I was in la for an outing thisyear.
And then we had a a child of aNavy veteran on the same outing.
(20:05):
How do you communicate to thatline of a fan and engage and
something worked to get them?
There is something that we gottadive into and it's definitely
something that we need tocommunicate to local, state,
federal Veteran Affairs offices.
And then the last prong, I wouldsay is the jobs.
And so once we get access, oncewe make people aware.
(20:28):
Then the last stage is, how do Inot be the end of this?
How do we.
How do we communicate to peoplethat 30% of the land management
agencies, whether that's thepark service BLM, forest
Service, are veterans, again,veterans make up, I think 6% of
the population.
So there's a disproportionateamount of veterans that want to
(20:48):
serve in these physicians thatare qualified, and we have to
let'em know that these pathwaysexist, so you don't find out by
luck like I did, and that wouldreally save lives there.
Missy Rentz (20:59):
Yeah.
I think I'm gonna just suggestthat if you're listening to this
now, share it with any veterans.
I think the more we can get theword out about Military Outdoors
the more exposure and thechances are people are gonna
start to join more and more ofthese activities.
I think it's really importantand the information you're
sharing is so valuable and someaningful.
(21:22):
I think it would be great forpeople to feel seen.
Listening to you.
I, I don't wanna, I don't wannaglaze over what you said earlier
about Outdoors for All.
You have this, the Sierra Clubbroadly has this campaign, which
I'd like for you to just tell usa little bit about The name says
all of it, but I want you totell us about it.
And Military Outdoors fullyembraces this philosophy.
Sherman Neal II (21:45):
That's correct.
And so we work in two differentways.
Yes, we have our internaloperations, but I also like to.
Like I said, anytime you can adda veteran voice, even with
everything going on in theworld, there's still some of the
most trusted voices that we havein this country.
And so when it comes to outdoorsfor all there's a couple
(22:05):
different key campaigns that wetalk about.
One is belonging outdoors.
And frankly, veterans across allareas don't feel welcome in a
lot of spaces.
And, the same way that whetherit's L-G-B-T-Q people some youth
people that are in urban areasgenerally we have to look at
what makes people feel like theybelong outdoors on and make the
(22:28):
lands more welcome andinclusive.
Another is we have a Transit toTrails campaign, which again,
those same overlays that Italked about in those uplifting
those voices help thosecommunities as well.
Where I'm at in Atlanta, how dowe look at marque projects like
the Atlanta belt line, and howdo we make sure that the access
(22:50):
is equitable?
We think about the frankly,environmental justice concerns
and and incorporatetransportation that helps
mitigate that last tactical,mile to get to a space.
And then we also have nearbynature again where not
everybody's gonna go toYosemite.
Not everybody's gonna go toSweetwater State Park here in
Georgia.
(23:11):
How do we have pocket parks andhow do we make those pocket
parks accessible?
And where do we place them againon this map?
And we have, again, those ideascome from the community.
And then, also we have a we workwith the Outdoor Alliance for
Kids.
And like I said this programoriginated as a Military
families initiative.
(23:32):
And there are some awesomeorganizations out there blue
Star Families, the YMCA that wework with to not forget about
Military kids.
I'm personally invested in thatmyself, having, two young kids
and.
Just like I talked about theAmerica, the Beautiful Pass and
what that would've meant to me.
(23:53):
What would it mean if the kidsall had access to the Every
Kid's Outdoors Pass and allfourth graders had it, or we
just had all kids receive that.
A lot of these Military basesare in desolate places, like 29
Palms, California, where I wasat, but we're surrounded by the
Mojave Joshua Tree BryceCanyons, a couple hours away.
(24:14):
Valley that education at thatlevel too is cool.
So I'm certain that I'mforgetting one of all the things
that we work on, but like Isaid, it's a wide range of just
connecting people to theoutdoors and ensuring that
there's equitable access aswell.
Missy Rentz (24:32):
Yeah.
Okay, so what else?
You've mentioned the America,the beautiful past, which I love
this idea that you, that aboutmaking sure every Military
veteran has one.
But other than that, what haveyou seen that helps aid.
Current Military and veterans toget outside.
Sherman Neal II (24:54):
So for current Military.
If we go 10 years or so ago tothe Toon commander, captain
Neil, I was unaware of all ofthe resources that were
available on base, not just forthe Marines, but for their
families.
So basically on base there areresources for Military members,
(25:18):
Military families to check outeverything from kayaks to life
jackets, to hiking day packs, etcetera, to go outside.
Because of the operational tempoand because frankly, as a
26-year-old captain trying tofigure out how to keep people
alive I didn't know about a lotof those things.
(25:38):
I didn't have a lot of time tothink about it.
And in retrospect, had I takenmore time to connect some of
those marines, their families,and made sure that they had
access to these places.
We would've mitigated severalissues, and that's statistically
we know that.
So that's the active duty sideto how do we connect that.
Then on the veteran side we havesome of the same issues.
(26:02):
I think people sometimes forgetthat, half of our Military
population is.
Junior enlisted.
So what does that mean is thathalf of the population is going
to serve for one term, which isfour years, and they're gonna
make an average of 33 to$40,000annually.
(26:24):
If we're talking about a parkpass being raised from$5 to$10,
or a reservation rate for anannual pass at a state level,
being 50 to 70 in Georgia, thoseare real impacts on people that
frankly are using other benefitslike Snap right now.
So there's a chain of thingsthat this family of four who,
(26:46):
again, these are.
Mostly people under 30 years oldare making decisions about on
the weekend.
And it sounds, I don't wannamake it sound trivial, but the
there's, am I going to stay inthe barracks and go get a 24
pack of Natty and hang outthere?
And amongst my peers or.
(27:10):
If there's a bus, if there's aservice, if there's a directly,
let's take you here.
That four hours or so mitigatesmany of the issues that we can
see and exposes them.
So that's the active duty side.
And then from a veteranstandpoint, again, like nobody
guiding you through life onceyou leave.
(27:31):
Once I left the gates of 29Palms for.
The last time and drove acrossthe country to Kentucky, I'm
restarting my life.
And so how are we connectingwith people during that time of
peak vulnerability?
How are we connecting withpeople who have, mental physical
(27:53):
issues that may not manifestuntil later on?
And one of those bullet pointsthat stuck with me is.
80% of veterans experience atraumatic brain injury have been
diagnosed with a mental healthdisorder.
I played college football, Icrashed in Military vehicles.
I'm certain that I'm in the 80%.
I don't know what to do aboutthat at this time.
(28:17):
When we talk about bringingservice providers together on
our outings, not us providingthe service, but making a
community thing that mightmitigate something, another,
that's the God I know I'm goingon about this.
Missy Rentz (28:29):
I love it.
I love it, Sherman.
Thank you.
Sherman Neal II (28:31):
I didn't, I was not aware of this until last
year when the disabled Veteransof America, the DAV, put out a
study about women veterans and,one in three women veterans have
suffered Military sexual trauma.
And once I read that, I, I.
I had the, blessing of having astrong woman veteran.
(28:54):
I was working on our team whowas designing outings where she
said, Hey, you can't come.
And it, I didn't take it asoffense.
I realized like just thephysical presence of myself as a
man and being in that spacethreatened some of the mental
health outcomes that we can see.
And so now that we have thattype of data, now that we know
(29:15):
what population that we'reserving.
What does it look like to createthose cohorts and resource them
appropriately and that it seemslike the common sense.
One of the last things that Idid in the Marine Corps was try
to integrate women into combatMilitary occupational
specialties.
Having worked with Military,with infantry units, we didn't
(29:38):
have women.
I didn't work with a woman forfive years directly in my unit.
And so those are skills thathave to be learned and taught as
well.
And if we equip the rightpeople, organizations, we can do
that outside.
I.
Missy Rentz (29:53):
And I think that the healing that takes place by
these people being able to gooutside by these veterans, not
these people, by these veterans,by these current Military
members to go outside is soimportant.
And and giving them resources.
Is that some of the advocating,when you talk about the Sierra
Club and the outdoor or Militaryoutdoor advocating, is that sort
(30:15):
of the advocating that you areworking on with kind of state
parks and what, whatever.
Sherman Neal II (30:20):
Absolutely.
One of the greatest successstories for me is that her
name's Bia Barnett, the samewoman who was working with me at
the Sierra Club.
Left the Sierra Club, startedher own nonprofit called the Vet
Space to address some of theseissues for women veterans, and
then became a grantee from theMilitary Outdoors Program.
And they just executed a womenveterans outing in North
(30:43):
Carolina where they had 40 womencome together in the outdoors
and do whatever the women do outthere.
And I say, do whatever they do,not trivially because.
I'm not seeking a desired set ofoutcomes or studies.
I think there's goodness in justletting people be outside and
(31:06):
see what comes from that.
And sometimes it's hard toarticulate that on your impact
reports, but you can see it whenyou work with the people.
And that's up to us to captureand tell those stories.
Missy Rentz (31:18):
That's beautiful.
I have so many more questionsfor you and we'll have to do
maybe other episodes on this,but I think what's what's coming
up for me is you've mentioned alot of resources, and so if
you're listening and you go tothe parks podcast.com, in the
episode page, I'm gonna go findlinks to all the different
things that you've mentioned,Sherman, so that there is a
(31:39):
resource page.
And I invite you if you'relistening and you know of a
program.
To please go to the contact uspage on the podcast page or on
our socials and just let me knowand I'll add links to that too
'cause I think that would bereally helpful as people are
listening.
Okay.
Military Outdoors is hosting afew events throughout November,
in celebration of Veterans Day.
(32:01):
I don't know if you wanna talkabout a few of them, but I also
wanna make a note that I willlink to that'cause there are
some really cool eventshappening around the country in
the next week.
Two weeks.
Sherman Neal II (32:13):
Appreciate that list would be a podcast in and
of itself.
But I'll add a few is now righthere in Georgia, we're gonna be
doing a hike at Red TideMountain State Park.
What's important about that andhow that ties into the outdoors
for all work is Red Tide.
Mountain State Park was formerlynamed George Washington Carver
(32:34):
State Park, George WashingtonCarver State Park was started
after a Tuskegee Airmen in 1950,returned from everything that
goes with being a TuskegeeAirman.
To create a park a segregatedpark at the time for all people
to come.
Rec, recreate not all people,but for, people that didn't have
(32:54):
access.
That is a motto for what we wantto talk about from a power, and
we can talk about that on thosegrounds in the.
In the Bay Area with our LomaPreta chapter.
That's where we have our twovolunteers, non-veterans that
are working with the VA directlyto get out veterans that are,
frankly have physicaldisabilities.
(33:16):
And we know that about half ofve, I think it's 64% of veterans
receive care at the VA in someway, shape or form.
And we have the able-bodiedpeople in Georgia and some not
able-bodied to make itadaptable.
And then we have people doingthat direct work.
And then when we talk, I'll dothe last one is in Minnesota.
We have less intense, it's heys'mores and star gazing and
Missy Rentz (33:39):
Love it.
Sherman Neal II (33:40):
right.
And so it's probably cold upthere.
I, but like I said, they'retough than, I guess I am in
Minnesota, but, it's just a fullrange of things when we talk
about, erasure and everythinggoing on with the current
moment, keeping an eye and focuson veterans who need services
the most.
And then just having peoplebuild community and connection
and not have to think about theworld for a few minutes.
Missy Rentz (34:00):
Absolutely.
What do we have to look forwardto from Military Outdoors?
Sherman Neal II (34:04):
Expansion.
We wanna be in every, we saychapter, like every city.
We wanna see redundancies.
We want to see new ideas flowingin.
We wanna see new leaders.
We want to diversify our leaderbase.
And we wanna look towards, thenext hill to, to talk Military a
bit is we know that there'sissues on the horizon.
(34:25):
We know that, we're gonna haveGen Z veterans coming up soon
and frankly, I was one of thelast people to deploy under
combat conditions as a unit, andso now that we're not doing
that, what type of mental healthissues come with the COVID
generation that is notkinetically involved, but have
to deal with so much and they'rereturning into a world where the
(34:47):
opportunities are less to havejobs like mine.
So it's gonna continue toevolve.
We're gonna continue to doformal research, and we're gonna
continue to just find a way togive people space to figure that
out outside.
Missy Rentz (35:00):
And if someone wants to get involved, how can
they join some of theseactivities?
Sherman Neal II (35:06):
The first thing, and I'll share contacts
here they can do is contactmyself or a teammate directly.
They could also go to ourwebsite at Sierra Club Military
Outdoors, and they could alsoget in touch with their local
chapter at the Sierra Club aswell.
And.
There, there's no end of theamount of people that will
quickly bring them in, try toresource them, get'em CPR, first
(35:30):
Aid, outdoor Leader, trainedwilderness survival, and ready
to design and help theircommunity how they want to.
Missy Rentz (35:35):
That's amazing.
I also wanna mention that thisis airing on Veteran's Day and
the Sierra Club is launchingthis beautiful video on their
YouTube channel today.
And so I recommend thateverybody go watch it.
Sherman.
I like got chills.
I needed tissues.
I was tears in my eyes.
'cause it is just reallypowerful the work that you and
(35:57):
your colleagues are doing.
It's really moving.
Sherman Neal II (36:00):
Yeah, I don't want to admit it out loud, but I
wore shades.
In min Minneapolis when I got togo on that sailing trip because,
we had about 50 veterans gosailing on Lake Bde Maka Ska,
and it was my first time doingit, but there was also many of
their first times doing it.
And those veterans came themajority from this housing
(36:22):
community called Upper Post.
And frankly, it's veterans thatare having housing issues and.
To see them come from there intoa new space using public
transportation directly plannedand just having a good time.
And then the email I gotafterwards was not just about
the good time, but hey, we foundthis new route to go sailing.
(36:46):
Can we do it?
And I just said, yes, it is upto me to find a way.
But like that's just cool andimpactful to see it happen
organically.
Like I can envision, them atthis housing community rather
than thinking about their woes,thinking about, the next time
they can go outside, throughthis program, which is, it's
pretty awesome.
Missy Rentz (37:07):
I think the video did an amazing job, like I felt.
The connection, I felt thecuriosity and discovering that
was taking place there.
And it was just really PApowerful way for me to feel
connected to the program.
And I'm really grateful to youall for letting me see it.
(37:27):
In advance of this episode,it'll be on your, so on your
YouTube, on Sierra Club's,YouTube.
I'll also link to it as wellbecause it's beautiful.
I think everybody needs to seeit.
Sherman Neal II (37:38):
You
Missy Rentz (37:39):
Okay, Sherman, we end every episode with a speed
round of questions.
No pressure, just answer withwhat first comes to mind,
Sherman Neal II (37:47):
try my best.
You see I talked too much in thefirst place.
I'll do my best.
Missy Rentz (37:52):
Okay.
What is your earliest park orpublic land memory?
Sherman Neal II (37:56):
Springbrook P Prairie preserve in Naperville,
Illinois.
Missy Rentz (38:02):
What made you love the parks?
Sherman Neal II (38:05):
Just being able to get lost and find new things
with no schedule or pressure todo anything.
Missy Rentz (38:12):
What is your favorite thing about our parks
and public lands?
Sherman Neal II (38:15):
The diversity of what we have in this country
having, been stationed in thedesert and now living in Georgia
and going in the woods and, bejust being able to see so much
here on our public lands.
Missy Rentz (38:28):
What is your favorite thing to do in our
parks and public lands?
Sherman Neal II (38:33):
Trail run.
I'm a runner and so I'll gotrail run and probably get a
little bit too lost, but it's myfavorite thing to do.
Missy Rentz (38:39):
What park have you yet to visit, but it's on your
bucket list and why?
Sherman Neal II (38:44):
That's a great question.
Arctics, they, the Alaska andthe refuges up there.
I've not been to Alaska and justthe wildlife.
I just wanna see caribou, fish,and do all that stuff up there.
Missy Rentz (38:58):
What are three must haves you pack for a park visit?
Sherman Neal II (39:02):
A headlamp, a knife, and a water bottle.
Missy Rentz (39:08):
What is your favorite campfire activity?
Sherman Neal II (39:11):
Telling stories and smoking a cigar
Missy Rentz (39:14):
Tent, camper, or cabin?
Sherman Neal II (39:16):
tent
Missy Rentz (39:18):
Are you hiking with or without trekking poles?
Sherman Neal II (39:22):
without
Missy Rentz (39:22):
What is your favorite trail snack?
Sherman Neal II (39:25):
beef jerky.
Missy Rentz (39:27):
What is your best animal sighting?
Sherman Neal II (39:29):
That's a good one.
I go black bear.
Missy Rentz (39:34):
What is your favorite sound in the park
Sherman Neal II (39:37):
Owls
Missy Rentz (39:38):
and what is the greatest gift that parks give to
us?
Sherman Neal II (39:42):
peace.
Missy Rentz (39:44):
Sherman, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you for sharing storiesand the mission of Military
Outdoors.
It was an introduction to me andI'm very grateful to you for
that.
Thank you so much.
Sherman Neal II (39:57):
No problem.
Thank you.
I appreciate your time.
Missy Rentz (39:59):
That's it for today's episode.
Happy Veterans Day to All.
Until next time, we'll see youin the parks.
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please be sure to like and share
on your favorite podcastplatform.
Music for the parks podcast isperformed and produced by Porter
Hardy.
For more information, pleasefollow us on social media, at
(40:22):
the parks podcast.
Or visit ourwebsite@theparkspodcast.com.
On this Veteran's Day, wecelebrate honor and thank those
who served our country, and inthis episode, learn about how
our parks and public landsprovide opportunities for
community, comradery, andhealing.
Join me as we explore SierraClub's military outdoors
program.
I'm your host, Missy Rentz, andthis is the Parks podcast.
Missy Rentz (00:24):
I am really excited for this episode.
We are celebrating Veterans Daywith Sherman Neil ii.
Sherman is a US Marine Corpsveteran, and the Deputy Director
of Sierra Club's MilitaryOutdoors.
Sherman, welcome to the ParksPodcast,
Sherman Neal II (00:42):
Appreciate having me, Missy.
Missy Rentz (00:44):
Sherman.
First of all, thank you for yourservice.
Sherman Neal II (00:48):
Thank you.
Missy Rentz (00:48):
Sierra Club launched Military Outdoors, in
2006.
Can you tell me about theprogram?
Sherman Neal II (00:55):
Yes.
Appreciate about the start.
So the.
Veterans have always had a rolein the Sierra Club, from its
existence essentially.
So the first executive directorfor the Sierra Club, David
Brower, was actually an armyveteran.
He was a World War II veteranand some of their outings
involved mountaineering intraining, and he was in the 10th
(01:17):
Mountain Division.
So there's a long lineage thatgoes beyond the 20 years.
And with our celebrating 20years this year.
The program originated in 2006,and if you take yourself back to
2006, that's the peak ofoperation Iraqi Freedom,
operation, enduring Freedom, andreally a lot of real kinetic
(01:38):
action going on the battlespace.
So the pro, the program actuallybegan as the Military Families
Initiative.
And there were outings thatbrought together Military
families, outdoors andintentionally put together some
programming to, help the peoplethat were in the rear, mostly
the families.
As the Military mission evolved,the program also evolved, and so
(02:01):
from those outings that startedwe started ingraining the
program into our Sierra Clubchapters.
We have 64 chapters across thecountry, and we're actively
working.
And 12, but generally, workacross the spectrum there.
And now the program is built onthat.
The Military familiesinitiatives are now working with
(02:22):
active duty, working withveterans, and working with the
Military community generally.
And and also has added anadvocacy element to it.
So at the state level, locallevel, and federal level, we are
pushing for legislation that,you know.
Increases equitable access tothe outdoors.
A lot of the issues that, mostpeople share when it comes to
(02:43):
access are exponentially higherfor veterans just due to their
experiences physical harmsmental harms, and just
separation frankly.
And things that come with thelife.
A long explanation of, theprograms evolved to meet the
moment that, we're in as we'redoing right now.
Missy Rentz (02:59):
And so, it was to meet the need.
Which I love that there was thisawareness that the Sierra Club
saw that need.
I love that.
How did they start it?
Is it, was it just a grassrootssort of, Hey, there's a need,
let's go.
Sherman Neal II (03:14):
Yeah, so our program is nested under the
Outdoors for All Campaign at theSierra Club.
Where we're generally pushingfor equitable access to the
outdoors, we believe that everyperson has a right to enjoy
public lands and then access tothe outdoors and feel welcome in
the outdoors.
And underneath that umbrella wehad a couple predecessors that
(03:37):
go.
So in 2006, as that need or thatheightened need came due to the
kinetic nature of war at thetime there was an opportunity
from a funding standpoint, froma what the nation saw as a need
standpoint and the alignmentwith some of the goals for
outdoors for all, for theMilitary families and veterans
(03:58):
to be a part of that work.
So it was just a natural fit forus.
And it's it's been interestingto me to see how that's worked
in this Sierra Club.
No, I thought that there wouldbe, initially, to be honest, I
thought there would be sometrepidation when you're talking
about conservation, some of thethings that the Sierra Club
advocates for and what peoplesee externally and that just
(04:20):
hasn't been the case.
We've seen how seamless it isand to bring a veteran outside
and their appreciation that theyalready have.
For what the outdoors brings tothem from a sense of awe, from a
sense of peace, from a sense ofhealing, and just building
connection with other peopleoutside.
Missy Rentz (04:37):
I think it is such a beautiful program and in
researching this I have agreater appreciation for the
massive amounts of work that aredone by the Sierra Club.
And I'm gonna take a.
A little bit of a step back, Iwanna just go a little bit more
broadly on outdoor space becauseoutdoor space, nature,
adventure, they can all behealing.
(04:57):
I, in episodes have talked aboutthe parks.
I use the parks very broadly forpublic land and outdoor space.
There's a physical, mental andemotional healing that can take
place outdoors.
And whether it's like moving ourbodies or the stress hormones or
building community or whateverit is.
It's healing Science has told usthis.
Why is nature and our parks andpublic lands so valuable
(05:22):
specifically to Militarymembers?
Sherman Neal II (05:25):
That, that's a great question.
I'll say personally for me thefirst thing that comes to mind
I'm biased as a marine and.
On Monday I know we celebrateVeterans Day and that's
important to the United States,but the biggest thing to a
Marine in the Marine Corps isthe Marine Corps's birthday,
which is on November 10th everyyear going back to 1775, meaning
that this year is our 250thanniversary.
(05:47):
And I bring that up not to go toMarine Corps nostalgia, but one
of the most vivid memories Ihave as a Marine is.
I think in 2018 on my seconddeployment, I was in Western
Iraq close to the Syrian borderwith a company of Marines.
Some soldiers, some Frenchsoldiers, and I think there's
(06:11):
some Dutch soldiers, a NATOforce out there.
And one of the missions that Ihad to complete, I thought was
trivial at the time, was flyingin a birthday cake on an Osprey.
He helicopter.
To the middle of Iraq so we cancelebrate the Marine Corps
birthday and being completelyisolated with no communications.
(06:32):
Those 250 or so, men and women,coming together outside to chop
it up on a rock in balancing ourcake on that rock and.
That's the exact type of thingthat you can do outside, whether
that's your backyard, whetherthat's Yosemite, if you have the
resources, whether that's on thekayak, and you're eating m and
(06:53):
ms while you're in betweenpaddling.
And so I think that synergy isjust naturally there for
veterans.
And it just like outside, whenyou go outside and it's raining
and you're like, how did thishappen?
And it, it's miserable time.
You end up laughing about it amonth or so later.
A couple.
It's the same thing withservice.
The things that we, complainedabout, mad about questioning
(07:14):
life.
Those are the things we textabout in the group chat now.
And so it's just another spaceto do that's just a natural fit.
Missy Rentz (07:20):
It is it is funny 'cause the most.
Frustrating hikes or whatever dotend to be the ones that are the
best memory makers too, likethose that challenge us and push
us out of our comfort zones.
Sherman Neal II (07:34):
Like I said it takes some time, a little bit
more time when
Missy Rentz (07:37):
I'm sure, yeah.
Sherman Neal II (07:38):
everything else, but it's just really.
I see that.
And one of the cool things aboutthe program being nested in the
Sierra Club is, it's probablynot a mystery that my, my views
on politics, my views on, who Iam as a person, frankly, as a
Black Marine Corps officer,we're a rarity in the Marine
(08:00):
Corps.
Don't always align with things.
And so the cool thing about theprogram here is.
What we're seeing from anaffinity group standpoint, like
the intentionality in, in, whenwe talk about equitable access
and being able to find versionsof me and bring them together
one of the coolest thing aboutthe program is about 48% of our,
(08:24):
the people that we serve arewomen.
We found that out from a surveythat we did.
Women only make up about 11% ofthe veteran population right
now.
So there's something that we aredoing that makes people feel
more comfortable with the SierraClub and feel comfortable being
outside.
And right now, that's the, whenwe're talking about meeting, the
(08:44):
moment, we know the populationsthat are under threat of
erasure, facing increased mentalhealth issues.
And we're digging into why it isand how it is that we're serving
people that makes'em feelwelcome under the umbrella of
this Sierra Club, whereverthey're at.
Missy Rentz (09:02):
If there's that big of a discrepancy, are those
women coming from Militaryfamilies or are they, are there
people, are there non-Militarythat participate in the Military
Outdoor program?
Sherman Neal II (09:16):
That's a great question.
So it's an all of the above.
We see that with the servicemembers, the women that served
in the Military.
Spanning from, Vietnam era downto global War on Terrorism.
From a, I like to say, Iborrowed the tagline from USAA
saying, we serve the Militarycommunity because our outings
(09:39):
aren't limited to veterans,Military families, or active
duty.
We're not checking IDs.
In fact, we think it's.
Healthy to see those groups cometogether with their community
members.
We know that, 58% of veteranshave been diagnosed with some
type of mental health disorder.
That's about 1.2 million peopleright now at the va.
(10:01):
We know that right now the VA isoverwhelmed and we know that
there are people that want tohelp veterans.
And, using the outdoors as abackdrop allows us to bring in
service providers.
To see, our theory of changework in the outdoors and design
their own programs to complimentwhat's going on for our
(10:24):
veterans.
A good example of that is in LosAngeles.
We have a program called SierraThrives, and that is actually
run by.
A family therapist and shebrings together a cohort of
about 20 mixed members of thecommunity, whether it's
veterans, other serviceproviders, or just Sierra Club
(10:44):
members.
Educates them about their publiclands at different locations.
Gives them some training so theycan become outdoor leaders, and
then ads, some specific teachingpoints are that relate to the VE
veteran community and how toaddress their needs into their
work.
So we're trying to be a forcemultiplier in the community.
(11:04):
There.
Missy Rentz (11:04):
Wow, that's powerful.
How do you convince someone thatbeing outside is good for them?
Sherman Neal II (11:12):
There's, to me, I don't know if this is to they
correct?
Is forcibly taking them outside?
Missy Rentz (11:20):
Okay.
Sherman Neal II (11:21):
So we have to, the same way that the Marine
Corps can recruit me andconvince me that I need to go
outside to support, defend theConstitution of the United
States is the same way we needto convince people to support
and defend their own mentalhealth.
I'll, my introduction to theSierra Club I'll admit when I
left service in 2019.
(11:42):
I didn't want to have anythingto do with the Marine Corps
veteran community and theMilitary.
And it took a couple years untilconnected with one of my
colleagues now who now works forthe Sierra Club who said, Hey,
there's a spot open on thiswhitewater rafting trip on the
Salmon River with anorganization called Team River
(12:02):
Runner.
I hesitated because I was like,who am I gonna be with for five
days to go on this 50 milething?
I don't want to hear about Cstories and all that stuff.
And I signed up'cause herecruited me and took me outside
forcibly.
One of the facilitators on thattrip, his name's Lynette Bestel,
(12:23):
who's now a coworker of mine wasone of the guides.
And this job didn't exist.
I didn't know these types ofjobs existed at the time I went
on the river.
It was awesome.
It was transformational, andwhen I got back two weeks later,
I got laid off from the job thatI was working at and rather than
go into the LinkedIn rat raceand, apply for 30 jobs a day, I
(12:49):
took time and I was like, youknow what?
That was one of the coolestthings I've ever done.
I was at peace and maybe this isa sign, and then this job opened
up and so that is how I like tobelieve that I'm a model for the
ladder of engagement we wannasee and hey, if you just get'em
outside have'em spend time innature with people who empathize
(13:10):
with what they're going through.
They will fall in love with it.
I've never had or heard ofsomebody come back saying, you
know what?
I hate my experience.
Or I have heard people come backsay, it would be awesome if we
can do it this way or at thisplace.
The best part about our programis it's not rigid.
If your thing is Minnesota andice fishing, you know we can do
(13:34):
that for you.
I did that.
It's pretty cold.
It's not for everybody.
If your thing is playingcornhole in the backyard and
'cause you're a group ofveterans at a subsidized housing
conflict complex and you justwant to have a barbecue and be
in the sun, we can do that too.
And it's, going over Class fourRapids isn't for everybody.
You know That water kayakingisn't for everybody.
(13:56):
We like to design it for, themoment again for the right, the
people.
Missy Rentz (14:00):
And that's one thing I in my research and going
through kind of each of theprograms web pages and seeing
the different things that areoffered.
Sometimes it's a picnic, I thinkthat.
One of the things I'm trying tohelp people become aware of is
the outdoors isn't extreme.
It doesn't have to be.
In fact, there was research outrecently that 95% of outdoor
users are entry level or justcasually active.
(14:24):
There's only 5% that's likehardcore, mountain climbers,
bikers, whatever the case maybe.
And I loved that you're justadvocating to be outside and
what a powerful statement that.
Whatever it is about theoutdoors and the community that
you create.
A picnic might be the healingthing you need.
Or to your point, cornhole, orit could be a class five rapid,
(14:47):
which is really cool.
So does each chapter createtheir own initiatives based off
of what's needed in thosecommunities?
Or is there a set structurethat.
No matter where you are in thecountry, this is how you're
gonna experience Militaryoutdoor.
Sherman Neal II (15:04):
There is no set structure.
So the formal process is, wereach out to a chapter.
Chapter consults with, theiroutings leaders and they return
with a statement of work on thisis what we would like to do.
And all we are trying to do atthe national level is use any
(15:26):
influence that we have to helpmake what they want to do
happen.
And, that's taken a lot ofGoogling on my part to, look at
different parts, look at,different type of activities.
And frankly to check my own biasin a lot of ways when we talk
about different outings can looklike.
Like I'm in able-bodied.
I think I'm saying, I probablyhave some issues there, but what
(15:48):
does it look like to.
at an outing design for peoplethat aren't in that population
given however wide of a rangethat we serve.
And it's just been really cooland enlightening to see, our
groups in the Bay Area wherewe're working with veterans and
pole walking directly out of theva.
Whereas in other places, like Isaid, we have folks in Minnesota
(16:11):
with no jacket on, ice fishingand then going sailing or
something.
And so it's, I couldn't doeither of those activities.
I can't walk with polls and Ididn't know how to stay like, so
opportunity to learn both.
So it's truly at the discretionof the chapter and the
personalities there.
Missy Rentz (16:26):
Yeah.
I was just at a conference withthe Maryland Department of
Natural Resources and then acouple months ago I was in one
in North Carolina.
But it is really amazing thework that's being done in our
state parks for accessibility.
It's such, it's clearly such apriority.
So it's really nice to see thathappen for anybody, but
(16:47):
certainly our veterans that manyhave accessibility issues.
Sherman Neal II (16:52):
Yes, and when we talk about the.
Ladder of engagement to useorganizing terms.
It's when we advocate fortracked wheelchairs and
placement of more of those inmore parks.
And we have a veteran that getsto use one of those chairs, it
doesn't take much to, to helpthem understand like, Hey, do
(17:14):
you know how powerful your voicewould be, not just for you in
the veteran community, but forother people throughout your
community?
To just talk about what thismeant for you to be outside and
go bow hunting off a wheelchairor accessing this trail.
And that's the, I'll say mostawesome part from a leadership
standpoint is seeing thosepeople emerge just like myself
(17:38):
frankly, in getting thisposition.
And how quickly the other skillsthat they have from being a
veteran come to light in a waythat they didn't know how to use
them before.
Missy Rentz (17:48):
I bet I would be.
Like some of the outings thatI've done, I'd be, would've been
so much better off if I had aveteran.
And the experiences you all haveI think that so many of us lose
out on survival skills andflexibility and pivoting.
Because we no longer spend timeoutdoors and that's such a great
(18:08):
gift to have.
What do you think?
Are the common barriers forkeeping people from going
outside?
Sherman Neal II (18:16):
For us number one is access.
Whether that's transportation toa spot that's outdoors.
We have a report that we'regonna release in the near
future, and we took a look ateight different cities and in
places like Atlanta, inJacksonville, we found.
44% of veterans don't haveaccess to a green space within a
(18:38):
10 mile walk of their home inAtlanta and in Jacksonville.
And so once we do some mapoverlays of the communities that
are impacted the most, itdoesn't take much to show that
the transit routes which impacteverybody but impact veterans
disproportionately.
When we talk about, greencanopy, urban, green, like
(19:00):
they're the hotter areas in thetown, air quality, et cetera.
So that is from an accessstandpoint, that's the number
one thing I believe that we needto address.
First is getting to the space.
The next is when you can getthere awareness.
And like I said, I thought thatI didn't want to go in the
outdoors with these types ofgroups.
(19:21):
But that's because I wasn'taware of the Military outdoors
program, frankly or the peoplethat we partner with.
So how do we get moreinformation to more veterans in
the right place, in the righttime?
So does that mean at, whenyou're doing your out
processing, you are physicallyhanded in America of the
beautiful past, and you'rehanded a map and you're saying
(19:43):
like, Hey, in your first 10days, do this.
It will change your life andprobably change your trajectory.
On what you do when we're, howwe're marketing, there's, we
talked about going from, I thinkwe had a Korean War veteran when
I was in la for an outing thisyear.
And then we had a a child of aNavy veteran on the same outing.
(20:05):
How do you communicate to thatline of a fan and engage and
something worked to get them?
There is something that we gottadive into and it's definitely
something that we need tocommunicate to local, state,
federal Veteran Affairs offices.
And then the last prong, I wouldsay is the jobs.
And so once we get access, oncewe make people aware.
(20:28):
Then the last stage is, how do Inot be the end of this?
How do we.
How do we communicate to peoplethat 30% of the land management
agencies, whether that's thepark service BLM, forest
Service, are veterans, again,veterans make up, I think 6% of
the population.
So there's a disproportionateamount of veterans that want to
(20:48):
serve in these physicians thatare qualified, and we have to
let'em know that these pathwaysexist, so you don't find out by
luck like I did, and that wouldreally save lives there.
Missy Rentz (20:59):
Yeah.
I think I'm gonna just suggestthat if you're listening to this
now, share it with any veterans.
I think the more we can get theword out about Military Outdoors
the more exposure and thechances are people are gonna
start to join more and more ofthese activities.
I think it's really importantand the information you're
sharing is so valuable and someaningful.
(21:22):
I think it would be great forpeople to feel seen.
Listening to you.
I, I don't wanna, I don't wannaglaze over what you said earlier
about Outdoors for All.
You have this, the Sierra Clubbroadly has this campaign, which
I'd like for you to just tell usa little bit about The name says
all of it, but I want you totell us about it.
And Military Outdoors fullyembraces this philosophy.
Sherman Neal II (21:45):
That's correct.
And so we work in two differentways.
Yes, we have our internaloperations, but I also like to.
Like I said, anytime you can adda veteran voice, even with
everything going on in theworld, there's still some of the
most trusted voices that we havein this country.
And so when it comes to outdoorsfor all there's a couple
(22:05):
different key campaigns that wetalk about.
One is belonging outdoors.
And frankly, veterans across allareas don't feel welcome in a
lot of spaces.
And, the same way that whetherit's L-G-B-T-Q people some youth
people that are in urban areasgenerally we have to look at
what makes people feel like theybelong outdoors on and make the
(22:28):
lands more welcome andinclusive.
Another is we have a Transit toTrails campaign, which again,
those same overlays that Italked about in those uplifting
those voices help thosecommunities as well.
Where I'm at in Atlanta, how dowe look at marque projects like
the Atlanta belt line, and howdo we make sure that the access
(22:50):
is equitable?
We think about the frankly,environmental justice concerns
and and incorporatetransportation that helps
mitigate that last tactical,mile to get to a space.
And then we also have nearbynature again where not
everybody's gonna go toYosemite.
Not everybody's gonna go toSweetwater State Park here in
Georgia.
(23:11):
How do we have pocket parks andhow do we make those pocket
parks accessible?
And where do we place them againon this map?
And we have, again, those ideascome from the community.
And then, also we have a we workwith the Outdoor Alliance for
Kids.
And like I said this programoriginated as a Military
families initiative.
(23:32):
And there are some awesomeorganizations out there blue
Star Families, the YMCA that wework with to not forget about
Military kids.
I'm personally invested in thatmyself, having, two young kids
and.
Just like I talked about theAmerica, the Beautiful Pass and
what that would've meant to me.
(23:53):
What would it mean if the kidsall had access to the Every
Kid's Outdoors Pass and allfourth graders had it, or we
just had all kids receive that.
A lot of these Military basesare in desolate places, like 29
Palms, California, where I wasat, but we're surrounded by the
Mojave Joshua Tree BryceCanyons, a couple hours away.
(24:14):
Valley that education at thatlevel too is cool.
So I'm certain that I'mforgetting one of all the things
that we work on, but like Isaid, it's a wide range of just
connecting people to theoutdoors and ensuring that
there's equitable access aswell.
Missy Rentz (24:32):
Yeah.
Okay, so what else?
You've mentioned the America,the beautiful past, which I love
this idea that you, that aboutmaking sure every Military
veteran has one.
But other than that, what haveyou seen that helps aid.
Current Military and veterans toget outside.
Sherman Neal II (24:54):
So for current Military.
If we go 10 years or so ago tothe Toon commander, captain
Neil, I was unaware of all ofthe resources that were
available on base, not just forthe Marines, but for their
families.
So basically on base there areresources for Military members,
(25:18):
Military families to check outeverything from kayaks to life
jackets, to hiking day packs, etcetera, to go outside.
Because of the operational tempoand because frankly, as a
26-year-old captain trying tofigure out how to keep people
alive I didn't know about a lotof those things.
(25:38):
I didn't have a lot of time tothink about it.
And in retrospect, had I takenmore time to connect some of
those marines, their families,and made sure that they had
access to these places.
We would've mitigated severalissues, and that's statistically
we know that.
So that's the active duty sideto how do we connect that.
Then on the veteran side we havesome of the same issues.
(26:02):
I think people sometimes forgetthat, half of our Military
population is.
Junior enlisted.
So what does that mean is thathalf of the population is going
to serve for one term, which isfour years, and they're gonna
make an average of 33 to$40,000annually.
(26:24):
If we're talking about a parkpass being raised from$5 to$10,
or a reservation rate for anannual pass at a state level,
being 50 to 70 in Georgia, thoseare real impacts on people that
frankly are using other benefitslike Snap right now.
So there's a chain of thingsthat this family of four who,
(26:46):
again, these are.
Mostly people under 30 years oldare making decisions about on
the weekend.
And it sounds, I don't wannamake it sound trivial, but the
there's, am I going to stay inthe barracks and go get a 24
pack of Natty and hang outthere?
And amongst my peers or.
(27:10):
If there's a bus, if there's aservice, if there's a directly,
let's take you here.
That four hours or so mitigatesmany of the issues that we can
see and exposes them.
So that's the active duty side.
And then from a veteranstandpoint, again, like nobody
guiding you through life onceyou leave.
(27:31):
Once I left the gates of 29Palms for.
The last time and drove acrossthe country to Kentucky, I'm
restarting my life.
And so how are we connectingwith people during that time of
peak vulnerability?
How are we connecting withpeople who have, mental physical
(27:53):
issues that may not manifestuntil later on?
And one of those bullet pointsthat stuck with me is.
80% of veterans experience atraumatic brain injury have been
diagnosed with a mental healthdisorder.
I played college football, Icrashed in Military vehicles.
I'm certain that I'm in the 80%.
I don't know what to do aboutthat at this time.
(28:17):
When we talk about bringingservice providers together on
our outings, not us providingthe service, but making a
community thing that mightmitigate something, another,
that's the God I know I'm goingon about this.
Missy Rentz (28:29):
I love it.
I love it, Sherman.
Thank you.
Sherman Neal II (28:31):
I didn't, I was not aware of this until last
year when the disabled Veteransof America, the DAV, put out a
study about women veterans and,one in three women veterans have
suffered Military sexual trauma.
And once I read that, I, I.
I had the, blessing of having astrong woman veteran.
(28:54):
I was working on our team whowas designing outings where she
said, Hey, you can't come.
And it, I didn't take it asoffense.
I realized like just thephysical presence of myself as a
man and being in that spacethreatened some of the mental
health outcomes that we can see.
And so now that we have thattype of data, now that we know
(29:15):
what population that we'reserving.
What does it look like to createthose cohorts and resource them
appropriately and that it seemslike the common sense.
One of the last things that Idid in the Marine Corps was try
to integrate women into combatMilitary occupational
specialties.
Having worked with Military,with infantry units, we didn't
(29:38):
have women.
I didn't work with a woman forfive years directly in my unit.
And so those are skills thathave to be learned and taught as
well.
And if we equip the rightpeople, organizations, we can do
that outside.
I.
Missy Rentz (29:53):
And I think that the healing that takes place by
these people being able to gooutside by these veterans, not
these people, by these veterans,by these current Military
members to go outside is soimportant.
And and giving them resources.
Is that some of the advocating,when you talk about the Sierra
Club and the outdoor or Militaryoutdoor advocating, is that sort
(30:15):
of the advocating that you areworking on with kind of state
parks and what, whatever.
Sherman Neal II (30:20):
Absolutely.
One of the greatest successstories for me is that her
name's Bia Barnett, the samewoman who was working with me at
the Sierra Club.
Left the Sierra Club, startedher own nonprofit called the Vet
Space to address some of theseissues for women veterans, and
then became a grantee from theMilitary Outdoors Program.
And they just executed a womenveterans outing in North
(30:43):
Carolina where they had 40 womencome together in the outdoors
and do whatever the women do outthere.
And I say, do whatever they do,not trivially because.
I'm not seeking a desired set ofoutcomes or studies.
I think there's goodness in justletting people be outside and
(31:06):
see what comes from that.
And sometimes it's hard toarticulate that on your impact
reports, but you can see it whenyou work with the people.
And that's up to us to captureand tell those stories.
Missy Rentz (31:18):
That's beautiful.
I have so many more questionsfor you and we'll have to do
maybe other episodes on this,but I think what's what's coming
up for me is you've mentioned alot of resources, and so if
you're listening and you go tothe parks podcast.com, in the
episode page, I'm gonna go findlinks to all the different
things that you've mentioned,Sherman, so that there is a
(31:39):
resource page.
And I invite you if you'relistening and you know of a
program.
To please go to the contact uspage on the podcast page or on
our socials and just let me knowand I'll add links to that too
'cause I think that would bereally helpful as people are
listening.
Okay.
Military Outdoors is hosting afew events throughout November,
in celebration of Veterans Day.
(32:01):
I don't know if you wanna talkabout a few of them, but I also
wanna make a note that I willlink to that'cause there are
some really cool eventshappening around the country in
the next week.
Two weeks.
Sherman Neal II (32:13):
Appreciate that list would be a podcast in and
of itself.
But I'll add a few is now righthere in Georgia, we're gonna be
doing a hike at Red TideMountain State Park.
What's important about that andhow that ties into the outdoors
for all work is Red Tide.
Mountain State Park was formerlynamed George Washington Carver
(32:34):
State Park, George WashingtonCarver State Park was started
after a Tuskegee Airmen in 1950,returned from everything that
goes with being a TuskegeeAirman.
To create a park a segregatedpark at the time for all people
to come.
Rec, recreate not all people,but for, people that didn't have
(32:54):
access.
That is a motto for what we wantto talk about from a power, and
we can talk about that on thosegrounds in the.
In the Bay Area with our LomaPreta chapter.
That's where we have our twovolunteers, non-veterans that
are working with the VA directlyto get out veterans that are,
frankly have physicaldisabilities.
(33:16):
And we know that about half ofve, I think it's 64% of veterans
receive care at the VA in someway, shape or form.
And we have the able-bodiedpeople in Georgia and some not
able-bodied to make itadaptable.
And then we have people doingthat direct work.
And then when we talk, I'll dothe last one is in Minnesota.
We have less intense, it's heys'mores and star gazing and
Missy Rentz (33:39):
Love it.
Sherman Neal II (33:40):
right.
And so it's probably cold upthere.
I, but like I said, they'retough than, I guess I am in
Minnesota, but, it's just a fullrange of things when we talk
about, erasure and everythinggoing on with the current
moment, keeping an eye and focuson veterans who need services
the most.
And then just having peoplebuild community and connection
and not have to think about theworld for a few minutes.
Missy Rentz (34:00):
Absolutely.
What do we have to look forwardto from Military Outdoors?
Sherman Neal II (34:04):
Expansion.
We wanna be in every, we saychapter, like every city.
We wanna see redundancies.
We want to see new ideas flowingin.
We wanna see new leaders.
We want to diversify our leaderbase.
And we wanna look towards, thenext hill to, to talk Military a
bit is we know that there'sissues on the horizon.
(34:25):
We know that, we're gonna haveGen Z veterans coming up soon
and frankly, I was one of thelast people to deploy under
combat conditions as a unit, andso now that we're not doing
that, what type of mental healthissues come with the COVID
generation that is notkinetically involved, but have
to deal with so much and they'rereturning into a world where the
(34:47):
opportunities are less to havejobs like mine.
So it's gonna continue toevolve.
We're gonna continue to doformal research, and we're gonna
continue to just find a way togive people space to figure that
out outside.
Missy Rentz (35:00):
And if someone wants to get involved, how can
they join some of theseactivities?
Sherman Neal II (35:06):
The first thing, and I'll share contacts
here they can do is contactmyself or a teammate directly.
They could also go to ourwebsite at Sierra Club Military
Outdoors, and they could alsoget in touch with their local
chapter at the Sierra Club aswell.
And.
There, there's no end of theamount of people that will
quickly bring them in, try toresource them, get'em CPR, first
(35:30):
Aid, outdoor Leader, trainedwilderness survival, and ready
to design and help theircommunity how they want to.
Missy Rentz (35:35):
That's amazing.
I also wanna mention that thisis airing on Veteran's Day and
the Sierra Club is launchingthis beautiful video on their
YouTube channel today.
And so I recommend thateverybody go watch it.
Sherman.
I like got chills.
I needed tissues.
I was tears in my eyes.
'cause it is just reallypowerful the work that you and
(35:57):
your colleagues are doing.
It's really moving.
Sherman Neal II (36:00):
Yeah, I don't want to admit it out loud, but I
wore shades.
In min Minneapolis when I got togo on that sailing trip because,
we had about 50 veterans gosailing on Lake Bde Maka Ska,
and it was my first time doingit, but there was also many of
their first times doing it.
And those veterans came themajority from this housing
(36:22):
community called Upper Post.
And frankly, it's veterans thatare having housing issues and.
To see them come from there intoa new space using public
transportation directly plannedand just having a good time.
And then the email I gotafterwards was not just about
the good time, but hey, we foundthis new route to go sailing.
(36:46):
Can we do it?
And I just said, yes, it is upto me to find a way.
But like that's just cool andimpactful to see it happen
organically.
Like I can envision, them atthis housing community rather
than thinking about their woes,thinking about, the next time
they can go outside, throughthis program, which is, it's
pretty awesome.
Missy Rentz (37:07):
I think the video did an amazing job, like I felt.
The connection, I felt thecuriosity and discovering that
was taking place there.
And it was just really PApowerful way for me to feel
connected to the program.
And I'm really grateful to youall for letting me see it.
(37:27):
In advance of this episode,it'll be on your, so on your
YouTube, on Sierra Club's,YouTube.
I'll also link to it as wellbecause it's beautiful.
I think everybody needs to seeit.
Sherman Neal II (37:38):
You
Missy Rentz (37:39):
Okay, Sherman, we end every episode with a speed
round of questions.
No pressure, just answer withwhat first comes to mind,
Sherman Neal II (37:47):
try my best.
You see I talked too much in thefirst place.
I'll do my best.
Missy Rentz (37:52):
Okay.
What is your earliest park orpublic land memory?
Sherman Neal II (37:56):
Springbrook P Prairie preserve in Naperville,
Illinois.
Missy Rentz (38:02):
What made you love the parks?
Sherman Neal II (38:05):
Just being able to get lost and find new things
with no schedule or pressure todo anything.
Missy Rentz (38:12):
What is your favorite thing about our parks
and public lands?
Sherman Neal II (38:15):
The diversity of what we have in this country
having, been stationed in thedesert and now living in Georgia
and going in the woods and, bejust being able to see so much
here on our public lands.
Missy Rentz (38:28):
What is your favorite thing to do in our
parks and public lands?
Sherman Neal II (38:33):
Trail run.
I'm a runner and so I'll gotrail run and probably get a
little bit too lost, but it's myfavorite thing to do.
Missy Rentz (38:39):
What park have you yet to visit, but it's on your
bucket list and why?
Sherman Neal II (38:44):
That's a great question.
Arctics, they, the Alaska andthe refuges up there.
I've not been to Alaska and justthe wildlife.
I just wanna see caribou, fish,and do all that stuff up there.
Missy Rentz (38:58):
What are three must haves you pack for a park visit?
Sherman Neal II (39:02):
A headlamp, a knife, and a water bottle.
Missy Rentz (39:08):
What is your favorite campfire activity?
Sherman Neal II (39:11):
Telling stories and smoking a cigar
Missy Rentz (39:14):
Tent, camper, or cabin?
Sherman Neal II (39:16):
tent
Missy Rentz (39:18):
Are you hiking with or without trekking poles?
Sherman Neal II (39:22):
without
Missy Rentz (39:22):
What is your favorite trail snack?
Sherman Neal II (39:25):
beef jerky.
Missy Rentz (39:27):
What is your best animal sighting?
Sherman Neal II (39:29):
That's a good one.
I go black bear.
Missy Rentz (39:34):
What is your favorite sound in the park
Sherman Neal II (39:37):
Owls
Missy Rentz (39:38):
and what is the greatest gift that parks give to
us?
Sherman Neal II (39:42):
peace.
Missy Rentz (39:44):
Sherman, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you for sharing storiesand the mission of Military
Outdoors.
It was an introduction to me andI'm very grateful to you for
that.
Thank you so much.
Sherman Neal II (39:57):
No problem.
Thank you.
I appreciate your time.
Missy Rentz (39:59):
That's it for today's episode.
Happy Veterans Day to All.
Until next time, we'll see youin the parks.
Thanks for listening.
If you enjoyed today's episode,please be sure to like and share
on your favorite podcastplatform.
Music for the parks podcast isperformed and produced by Porter
Hardy.
For more information, pleasefollow us on social media, at
(40:22):
the parks podcast.
Or visit ourwebsite@theparkspodcast.com.
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