February 7, 2021 • 53 mins
James "JT" Turner is a current member of the Royal Air Force Aerobatic Team, The Red Arrows. We talk about his journey through life to end up flying for the Red Arrows and what the future has to hold, along with some amazing insights inside one of the world's greatest aerobatic teams.
3 months free LogTen
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben Hall (00:06):
Hello, and welcome to the pilot based podcast. I'm Ben
and I've been a pilot for over adecade,
Dave Rogers (00:11):
and I'm categorically not a pilot.
Ben Hall (00:14):
Every Monday we'll be chatting to both pilots and non
pilots with amazing aviationstories from all around the
world. You can find all episodesof the pilot based podcast for
free wherever you get yourpodcasts. If you like what
you're hearing, subscribe to ourchannel and leave us a review.
Dave Rogers (00:28):
In Episode Four. We flight left Tennant James
Turner, aka j t. a bonafide ered arrow currently flying as
red for in the Royal Air ForceAerobatic Team. Now as you'd
expect from someone who playssuch an integral part in
something so brilliantlyBritish, he's very modest about
his achievements. Thankfully forhim, myself and Ben, were a lot
(00:49):
less modest on his behalf. Evenmore the famous red flights,
it's perfect. And here he is.
Right, we're doing this by theway, it's a video and an audio
podcast. So those of you whoaren't watching on video, JT has
come fully stashed up for theoccasion, and I've never seen
(01:10):
anybody looks so radiant in red,and bearing in mind, I'm a Wales
rugby fan. That is more praisethan you'd expect it.
James Turner (01:21):
I wouldn't normally wear the red for Wales.
Yeah.
Dave Rogers (01:25):
So we're in the middle right now.
James Turner (01:28):
I'm in Lincolnshire, so I live just
south of Lincoln. And the we flyfrom just north Lincoln. So
basically Scampton Okay.
Dave Rogers (01:36):
Do you ever spend any time in Wittering? That's
the one with the Harrieroutside, isn't it?
James Turner (01:41):
I've driven past it many times. I think I've
probably been in there aboutonce, but I've never had any
time there. But yeah, I'vedriven past it many, many times.
I've done the a one.
Dave Rogers (01:49):
Yeah, that's the one that catches my eye. And
Anyway, I digress. We've got somuch so much to talk about
today. Thanks for jumping onboard. Ben. I want to start with
how you and JT met because whenwe had a bit of a chat before
welcoming James into the room,you said that it was at a
(02:12):
wedding and you were attachingevaluated, you just want to get
that out of the way out in theopen or?
Ben Hall (02:18):
Yeah, we've met a couple of times. So this is
through a mutual friend of ours.
I've known him since school whenhe's in the Air Force now flying
f 35. And JT was on the samecourse as he wasn't he going
through
James Turner (02:32):
courses, but we worked together for three years,
he was just a little bit aheadof me. And then we ended up
working together in a structuretogether on the on the same
aircraft on fly now.
Ben Hall (02:42):
Okay, so yeah, the probably the first meeting is an
RF Valley then in North Wales,for some kind of graduation, I
want to say lots of booze. Very,very messy night. And then my
friend's wedding A few yearslater, was a slightly more
sophisticated affair.
James Turner (03:01):
We started off that.
Ben Hall (03:03):
Well, yeah, of course, it died pretty quickly.
Dave Rogers (03:07):
So you were all dressed? Well, to begin with? Is
that what we're getting? Well,
Ben Hall (03:11):
some more than others, they were all in their RF garb,
like a proper dress. outfit, andI was just in a scary suit. So
Dave Rogers (03:19):
Oh, you're telling me you don't wear your
commercial pilot's uniform. Soweddings?
Maybe you should startsomething. Anyway, I digress.
Let's talk about becoming apilot, then. Was it a childhood
dream? Are you from an aviationfamily of forces family? How did
(03:41):
that? How did it manifest itselfto begin with?
James Turner (03:44):
So I'm not really from a forces family. So I think
my great grandfather, my great,great grandfather, fought in the
Second World War, but I nevermet it. And then since then,
we've not got any militaryhistory at all in the Air Force
in my family. So it was prettymuch out of the blue. I joined
it, but actually, I think I wasI was sitting in, I was in
(04:05):
somewhere in Italy, and I sawtwo jets flying. And when I was
about 12, I think that'd becool. So that's pretty much the
first time I actually thoughtthat is quite interesting thing
to do. And then on and offthroughout University in sixth
form, I sort of applied, didn'tprepare very well failed, think
form and then applied later on.
I had my ego bruised, and thenstarts again, and then actually
(04:26):
after universities, but I got abit carried on from there.
Ben Hall (04:31):
So you failed to get into the Air Force first time.
James Turner (04:34):
So there was a sick form scholarship where they
would teach you to fly anaircraft. I had no preparation
for the interview. I think I wasa good life lesson to actually
put some effort into it ratherthan just turn up and hopefully
I can get it. I got the secondtime.
Dave Rogers (04:48):
What I love about that story is you were in Italy
and you saw jets. And you'dactually I'm assuming you had
flown to Italy in the firstplace. Yes. I just thought now,
these these big things with lotsof people are no interest to me
whatsoever
James Turner (05:03):
I want to be, I want to be in the sports cars.
So I wouldn't want to insultanybody flies them, but it's not
it's not my interest at themoment. Maybe in a few years
time I'll be changing my mind tobring it up better and say,
Ben Hall (05:15):
Can I get a job you don't want to implicate yourself
a future career options do thisI'll come
Dave Rogers (05:21):
specially with the millions of listeners that this
podcast currently appeals to.
Okay, so when you when youdidn't get into the RAF the
first time, was there any partof you that thought maybe this
isn't for me, or did that sortof galvanise your determination
to go in that direction?
James Turner (05:40):
I think so. But so little effort into initially,
you didn't really, it was justgoing to be quite interesting to
go and do and it wasn't join theairforce, it's just to go and do
a sixth form scholarship. Okay,about about 30 hours of flying
out of got. So I tried that andget in, took a step back and
then finished a levels went touniversity and then at
university during the thefreshers fair I saw some people
(06:03):
are flying suits so much gocheck them, they found out they
were the university AirSquadron. And I pretty much do
the same thing. But slightlymore official, you're still not
joining the Air Force, thenyou're still interested in like,
you don't have to want to jointhe Air Force tall, it can just
be a good way to go and seedifferent parts of the world go
around Europe and be skiing inthe winter. And also fly as
well. So as a sort of a steppingstone in. That's still a an in
(06:25):
Yes, you still need to. Yeah,give the application afterwards.
Dave Rogers (06:29):
A telephone
James Turner (06:30):
that does sound like fun, though, doesn't it? I
would recommend that even ifyou're not interested in the
military at all. I think theuniversity Air Squadron isn't
absolutely probably one of thebest clubs University
Dave Rogers (06:38):
While they were there many people involved with
the Air Squadron that weren'tinterested in taking it further
James Turner (06:45):
though. I think in the interview to get in because
this like a semi, unfortunatelyto get in. Everyone says they
are interested. But the peopledoing the interviews and know
that most of the people who areon the US it's called University
Air Squadron are reallyinterested or will never get in.
So it's just a good way ofshowing future business leaders
and future counsellors what theAir Force is like, and it's a
(07:07):
good way of having people onyour side. So when the Air Force
is going to a local council totry and sort something out. They
had I remember my time on theuniversity Air Squadron,
hopefully positively.
Dave Rogers (07:19):
So took me through your first flight then or the
first flight that you ever tookresponsibility for I always
refer to it as responsibilitybecause I think it is I full
disclosure, I am not a pilot, asI constantly remind everybody on
this podcast, Ben is the expert.
I asked the questions, I thinkexperts a bit of a push. I asked
the questions that he'd probablysound very silly if he asked. So
(07:42):
I do think every time that youthat you do fly a plane, it is
his huge responsibility. So doyou remember the very first time
that you went up?
James Turner (07:53):
I think most pilots remember the first time
they were solo in an aircraft.
Yeah. And he was always in aside by side, little propeller
aircraft and look across,there's no one next to you.
That's that's quite a, aninteresting view. There's
normally just about a fiveminute flight, I think my mind
definitely was a five minuteflight. First time when you're
in the aircraft on your own. Ilook across the seats empty.
(08:14):
It's just the same feeling, Isuppose is the first time you
fly a traffic car. But I thinkthat it's exciting to know that
it's now you has to land it,there's no one else to help you.
Dave Rogers (08:25):
And was that the moment that that sort of nailed
it for you where you reallythought that that was just the
love that you wanted to pursue?
James Turner (08:33):
I think so, I mean, I've never been one of
these people who are sort offrom five years old, who really
want to join the Air Force andbe a foster pilot and everything
else. So I didn't have thatdrive all the way through. But I
think as I've done more and moreinto I've realised I enjoy it
more and more. So I think mydrive has actually increased so
I've got on and it's great to besitting around now doing pretty
much what i love
Ben Hall (08:55):
it i think that's the same as me, actually, James. So
I'm not from an aviationbackground or military or
anything like that. So I had noknowledge of aviation at all. So
when I was growing up, I hadvery little interest in it, to
be honest, I mean, I quite likeplanes and stuff. They're nice,
but I didn't have this dream ofbecoming a pilot, which lots of
people do. But I'm the same thatthe more time spent in the
(09:16):
cockpit The more I fall in lovewith the profession.
James Turner (09:19):
I agree. Yeah, that's great.
Dave Rogers (09:22):
So then you are successful in an application for
the RAF was that was that firsttime the charm this time
James Turner (09:31):
it was so only applied officially for the Air
Force properly at the end ofuniversity. So it got to the end
of our my three years he appliedand then joined the next summer
of actually So as of a year ofwaiting around and getting it so
and it was 2006 when I joined.
So I've been in since then
Dave Rogers (09:47):
and prepared better this time, a little bit more. So
so you applied and yourapplication was as a pilot or to
learn to become a pilot in theAir Force is you There are lots
of different piloting jobsaren't there? There are lots of
things that you can fly. doeseveryone want to be a fast jet
(10:08):
pilot? And how do they kind ofsort? I nearly said the wheat
from the chaff there, but that'snot very fair. But But you know,
you know, the points are making.
James Turner (10:17):
I suppose it'd be quite PC here, but I think you
go through your, you do a firsttraining, which was 60 hours
flying in a twin seaterpropeller aircraft knee joint.
And then at the end of that,they stream you it's called, and
it is the the fast jet, and thenthe rotor is cool. So
helicopters, and it's the multiengine aircraft. So the the big
Hercules or the seven for sevenstyles at 30. So it is actually
(10:42):
in those orders. Now, I thinkmost people join to try and go
fast jet. But I think you findout how you are doing the first
training. change what you eitheraim for or what you say you aim
for. I don't know which one?
I've always been lucky enoughthat I've managed to still move
forward.
Ben Hall (11:02):
Very diplomatic answer there.
Dave Rogers (11:05):
Be the one that we clip up for social media.
Although I I mean, I'm from I'mfrom a military town and there
are always Hercules trundlingover the top and the pilots are
so low, you can practically givethem a wave. Make no mistake,
they are pretty amazing aircraftout there.
James Turner (11:23):
Oh, a massively, I think I think all of the flying
in the military is you flying,you can get can't do elsewhere
pretty much the whole time. Sohelicopters the rotary fly is
different. I think even themulti engine stuff is very
different. So you can do a moretactical stage. But you can also
end up doing just routes fromone place to another delivering
people on cargo. I think it's avaried lifestyle.
Ben Hall (11:46):
I think there's actually a similar sort of
comparison to the civilian worldthat when you first start flying
as a pilot, I think the dream issort of, you know, long haul
wide body aircraft. But actuallyvery quickly, some people much
prefer short haul or private jetor turboprop so that that dream,
I think can can change overtime, depending on your personal
(12:08):
situation.
Dave Rogers (12:09):
Okay, from fastjet, then, is the red arrows. Is that
a kind of carrot that's alwaysdangling there? Is that
something that you that youthink at the very beginning? I'd
really like to do that? And whatis the likelihood of you having
the opportunity to do
James Turner (12:29):
and I think for some people, I think, again,
some people have maybe five, sixyear old goes to an airshow and
sees the red arrows flying andgo, that's what I want to do and
always strive towards it. Again,I didn't do that. It wasn't
something that was even reallyon my radar. It was fact that I
would just, it was great,something to look forward to or
something to see an air show,but I didn't even know it was
(12:49):
possible to to be chosen to doit. So I personally just moving
forward has tried to do as bestas I can. But you end up in two
kind of roots of the fast jetpilots go down and it's a
weapons instructor or a flyinginstructor is kind of where
people go. So it does kind ofsplit, but you can still swap
across the two. Really, you'reworking for it. So long story
(13:13):
short, I wasn't aiming for itwhen I joined. But it's been
great in the last 510 years tothink about maybe I could start
joining that. And then here I amnow.
Dave Rogers (13:21):
Is that your actual flight suit that you've got on
now.
James Turner (13:24):
So yes, we get a number each year. Okay, this is
the red arrows flying suit. Soit's pretty much the same as the
green ones that people normallywear and we're flying. But
during the summer months when inthe red, so I'm not sure when
people actually view this video,there's a chance I wouldn't
normally be wearing the greenone at this time of year.
Actually, day to day I'm goinginto work and flying in a green
(13:47):
flag seat. And it's only when weget the PDA which is the public
display authority that is whenwe're allowed to call ourselves
red arrows and actually displayfrom the public. And that's when
we swap over to this but Ithought as I had been told when
I first got into the team tobring me down a level it's the
red fly see this famous it's notyou which actually everyone
(14:10):
recognised the red flag saidwhich is the best way of doing
this on your summary and thenyou take it off and you're back
to being
Dave Rogers (14:17):
just James What does it say? What does it say on
the on the chest?
James Turner (14:23):
So is my name eventually be the the actual
term for the red arrows or theRoyal Air Force? Aerobatic Team
Rafat is what we call it.
Everyone knows is the redarrows. It's actually
technically the Royal Air ForceAerobatic Team.
Dave Rogers (14:38):
And you are red for?
James Turner (14:40):
That's correct.
Yes. So I'm in my second year,but it's because last year so
the display season 2020 was sostrange, obviously with what's
going on around the world. Wepause the team so normally every
year, we change positions, butthe last year into this year we
paused it so it was in the sameposition. is a bit of a strange
situation
Ben Hall (15:01):
Oh, you change every year do?
James Turner (15:03):
Yes. So as a rough big picture in, you guys start
near the boss to start near thefront of the formation. And as
you get better you move furtheraway is kind of how it works. So
I'm running my first year andthe there's three new people
started. And it's two, three andfour. So before we started, but
then because the last year was aweird we only did three displays
(15:25):
actually probably displaysrather than sort of 40 or 50,
you'd normally expect we'vestayed the same positions to
keep the continuity.
Dave Rogers (15:33):
So if you're four, are you on the are you on the
right or the left? How do thenumbers work from water,
James Turner (15:40):
I'm gonna get a decent visual, I have a symbol
on my front of X ray, I can seeyour I don't know if I am still
on your sternum. Yeah, mirroredin this picture. But I am on the
right hand side. So if you'relooking down on the formation on
the right hand side,
Dave Rogers (15:57):
so where are you the first one are you the first
blue?
James Turner (16:04):
It depends. So we have seven minutes of smoke
light one minute of red one isblue. So we change around which
colours we're using to try anduse all of the smoke in a
display right now. Last year Iblue was my rival colour, but
this year might be different itis depends how much smoke and
(16:26):
where we wanted the colours.
Definitely. So my rival colourin the display last year was
blue. But for some flypast Imight be red just to sort the
colours red.
Dave Rogers (16:35):
Okay, and just that obviously that's that's planned
out a long time in advance, youdon't just get somebody on the
radio like bright by the wayreds on
James Turner (16:46):
for display is planned out quite a long way in
advance. But sometimes if we'reflying around the country, and
doing many different flypastsover the queen and then over
Cardiff and then some otherplaces around the country as
well. We might stop round inthat sorting, so we fly for
about an hour, but we'll beputting out different colours
depending on to try and keep agood spectacle as we fly over
(17:07):
but not running out of colourover London, which is quite
embarrassing. Oh, that
Dave Rogers (17:10):
would be an absolute disaster. Yeah. I saw
Ben Hall (17:15):
I saw was it last year or the year before there was the
French Aerobatic Team, one ofthem put the wrong colour on
Donald Trump.
James Turner (17:23):
That's happened and it happened in the Reds
about four or five years ago.
The I'm sure it's very easy todo, though.
Ben Hall (17:29):
I mean, is it just three separate buttons?
James Turner (17:32):
That's exactly it.
So the stick we fly with, andthere's three buttons on it. And
it's red on red off white onwhite off and blue on blue off.
So we swap around obviouslythroughout the show to us all.
So it is quite easy to get thewrong colour out.
Dave Rogers (17:46):
It'd be a great practical joke to put the wrong
colour in someone's tank,
James Turner (17:50):
but it'd be pretty embarrassing. Like a brown
colour Robin.
Dave Rogers (17:57):
Right I've we've got ahead of ourselves here. And
we were talking about smokealready. What does a regular day
look like for you? Firstly, asort of regular day at work. And
then I'd like to talk about aregular show day as well.
James Turner (18:12):
So during the winter months, and from around
about November to about May,within the winter training, as
we go back to green flyingseats, and we're flying three
times a day. So the day wouldstart to round about eight
o'clock in the morning. So ofcourse it's way eight o'clock in
the morning. And then we do amap briefs, we talked about the
weather, and what we're going tobe aiming to do for that day.
And then we go pretty muchstraight into a sortie brief.
(18:34):
And so we brief about what wecan do in the flight, we don't
go and do the flight and then wecome and do a debrief. I think
this is something from what I'maware, it's quite different to
lots of civilian flying thestaff that the debrief is
probably the most important partof military flight. So at the
end of what we're doing hereafter each practice, which is
about 30 minutes, airborne, willthen pretty much watch that in
(18:54):
real time with a video and thenpause and stop to see how we are
doing and whether we are in thewrong position and the Smokeout
split second too early and allthat sort of stuff. So the
debrief is actually probablymore important than natural
flying, so we can pick updifferences in how to improve
next time,
Ben Hall (19:11):
and whose video and all of these sorties. Is
James Turner (19:14):
it from the ground? Someone on the ground?
Yes. So we've always got we callit the the display centre,
essentially. So as thoughthere's one person still
standing on the display line,where we're displaying to that's
what all air shows all displaysare aimed at. Obviously, it
looks good from everywhere,whatever where you are, but it's
actually all of the crossingpoints and everything is
(19:35):
actually a me at one point. Sothe camera ban there will come
out obviously. And then it's awe use that for two reasons, one
for debriefing. But also for ifanything goes wrong, we've got a
video evidence to see why therewas an accident or why something
went wrong. So it's good way tolearn from that as well. And
then so the brief flight debriefcycle lasts about an hour hour
(20:00):
and a half to two hoursprobably. And that we do that
three times a day,
Dave Rogers (20:04):
five days a week.
And Goodness me. That's, that'samazing. So, so 1515 flights a
week, no questions asked.
James Turner (20:13):
It's quite tiring, it definitely gets a walk into
it. But the flights are quiteshort. So the aircraft I flown
beforehand, you could normallydo about an hour and a half
sortie. But with air to airrefuelling, you can easily go up
to 468 hours of flying as well.
Or we're only way we're using itat the moment, we only do about
30 to 40 minutes of practising.
Dave Rogers (20:35):
But let's talk about those aircraft, then.
Because it would be easy tothink that as as the red arrows,
the world famous red arrows,that just just looks so
spectacular in the sky, thatyou'd be using brand new jets
every year. And you know thatthe height of technology, but
that's not necessarily the case.
James Turner (20:57):
That's not the case in the slightest. The
aircraft was designed in the70s. And we first flew it in the
United ladies. So we are flyingthe same aircraft. Now that we
flew in the red arrows, the1980s. So they are quite old.
However, they are the absoluteperfect aircraft for us. So it's
a it's often described as asmall sports car. So it's got
(21:19):
none of the electronic kit thata Ferrari would have or anything
else. But it's a small LotusElise style thing with no abs,
no traction control is just youfly the aircraft, which is
actually perfect. So it is old,but is the absolute ideal
aircraft.
Ben Hall (21:35):
I imagine it's an absolute nightmare for things
like North Atlantic transitsthough.
James Turner (21:40):
That is true. Yes.
So we, depending on how we flyus obviously fly higher, we use
less fuel. But we fly around ina big formations, it's harder to
get a big formation about highsand lows, very rules, but rvsm
and restrictions and stuff,which I'll show you where we
aren't obvious and compliance.
We can't fly in controlledairspace and of that 27,000 feet
(22:03):
around the world. So we try tofly low. So long story short, we
do around about 600 mile hops iswhat we aim for we're travelling
around the world, which meanstrying to get across to North
America, we have to try and findlittle bits of land with a
runway on within 600 miles. Andthat involves going around
Scotland and then Greenland,Iceland, Canada, and then come
(22:24):
back around. So two years ago,the team were in America, and
actually getting across therewas one of the hardest bits,
because you're looking atlanding in airfields with no
instrument recovery procedures,and no diversion airfields as
well. So you've got one go. Soyou have to make a decision. If
you draw a line on the maphalfway through that line, you
(22:45):
find out the weather's goodenough where you're trying to
land and you make a decisionwhere they are going to go for a
turn around. And I think it'sit's a little bit more exciting
and quite an old aircraft.
Strike. Yeah, cuz
Ben Hall (22:57):
I mean, in in civilian airliners, we've got the luxury
of, you know, all sorts of wizzygadgets, where you can get live
weather updates and no tabs forall the fields. And you know,
we've got everything on littleiPads and computers, where if
you guys it's paper on yourknee, do you even have
autopilot? No autopilot on this
James Turner (23:16):
aircraft, so we can trim it. And that's about
it. We've got an old GPS that wecan use. It's a black and green
screens, it's black and whitescreen. And we've got some
pretty much steam driven dials.
But it's a it's a great aircraftto fly and it's a light
manoeuvrable aircraft and ithandles exactly as you'd want it
(23:38):
to. So it's perfect when you getto the air shows. But trying to
get to the air shows can be abit more challenging. It's easy
for me, I just wanted the personin front.
Dave Rogers (23:49):
So I think I already know the answer to this
question then if they if theyoffered you a brand new plane
now they were going tocompletely overhaul everything?
Would the would you and the restof the pilots the rest of the
team sort of round against itand go No, this is what we've
got. This is what we need. Theseare the red arrows.
James Turner (24:10):
Well as a difficult question, because the
the BA haut we're flying themoment will run out of his life
where that's going to becurrently it's looking at 2030.
So he's got another 10 yearsleft of it. But at some stage,
it will just be an economical toactually keep it going because
it's running out of fatigue liferunning out of spares for it. So
(24:31):
we will run out what we replaceit with I don't know and no one
seems to know yet. We're stillhaving an IRA deciding I don't
think the government will wantto get rid of the team. We
probably won't have any partsthe military that actually
brings more money into thecountry then it costs but it's a
we will replace it as to what toreplace it for. There'll be
advantages and disadvantagesgoing for new aircraft but I
(24:53):
think what we've got at themoment is actually perfect for
using it for
Dave Rogers (24:58):
let's talk show days then. The obviously the the
training the rehearsals if youwant to if you want to call on
that, that sounds prettyintense. What is the show day
look like?
James Turner (25:10):
So it's difficult.
So I have been on the team forone year with one display
season, we only did three shows.
So I can talk about what itwould be like, can't give you a
fully honest answer. However,the reason why we do the three
flights a day and we work quitehard to practice what it's like
being tired, is because the showdays can be even more tiring
(25:32):
because you can do the samethree displays at different
places around the country, andthen a fourth flight to transit
to go somewhere else, you can dofour flights a day. interspersed
with that you can end up gettingto meet the public, which is
great to do is quite tiring. Soyou get to chat to people. And
that's everything from thelittle four five year old boy
(25:52):
and girl who's interested to theaviation enthusiasts. Asking
difficult questions is quite atiring summer season that can be
Dave Rogers (26:04):
I suppose that keeps you honest as well, isn't
it? The aviation enthusiastsasking the question? Is there an
emotional attachment with thered arrows because it is such an
iconic thing and such an honourcertainly, from my perspective,
as a civilian to to look uponyou as a red arrows pilot, it
(26:26):
seems like an incredibleachievement and a real honour.
So is that the case?
James Turner (26:32):
I thought I feel a massive honour to be asked to
join the team to be figureheadof the RF UK military and the UK
as a whole around the world. SoI think it's a it's an amazing
experience and amazing honour todo this job. And I'm massively
lucky to be here. And I think asyou're saying, I think lots of
(26:52):
people in the UK have the samefeeling of sort of a feeling in
their throat as we fly over butthe colours out and it's amazing
to fly over the Queen for herbirthday and to open things like
Silverstone and, and other bigevents around the country. I
think it's a really nicebirthday. And it's also good to
go around the world as well. Solast year, we did manage to go
(27:13):
to to France and to Finland, thedisplays, we flew with the
French equivalent of the redarrows down the shores of these
a and past the Eiffel Tower. Andthen we flew over Boris Johnson
in London the same day. I thinkit's amazing opportunities and
experiences. But I think it'salso great to know that people
on the ground looking up andhaving a smile we fly over
Dave Rogers (27:33):
Is there anywhere in the world you'd love to fly,
we've not had the opportunity toyet.
James Turner (27:40):
So my previous aircraft type, which was the
Eurofighter Typhoon, so it's amore of a operational aircraft,
I was lucky enough that I'vetaken over to the west coast of
America. And I've also been outto the east coast of Japan
eventually with it. So I've beenquite a long way around the
world with it. So I think it'sgreat. It's amazing to go and
see people and work with peoplefrom nationalities, different
(28:04):
nationalities and differentcultures who do exactly the same
sort of job as me. We work withthem and see different places.
So again, it's an amazingexperience.
Ben Hall (28:13):
What does the programme look like for next
week?
James Turner (28:17):
We are aiming for a big tour. I don't know if it's
on the cards we are going for.
But it's going to be a verylarge tour today for the same
sort of thing. So two years agowent to America. We're looking
at going the other way aroundthe world this time, but I'm
really
Dave Rogers (28:33):
super cool. Just just rock and roll pilots in
really, isn't it?
Unknown (28:38):
Exactly. That's.
Dave Rogers (28:41):
But you mentioned America a couple of times now,
have you come across any BlueAngels.
James Turner (28:47):
So I haven't not worked with them. But at the end
of the American tour was when Iwas joining the team. So the new
pilots, which I was just over ayear ago, you go and fly with
the current pilots in your newposition. So you find out where
you're gonna be so I find out aswe read for so at the end of
that season, I flew in the backof red force aircraft just to
(29:09):
see what it was like and see thewhole experience of all the
meeting the public and all thePR work have to do with it.
While we were out there we wereat the same airshow as the
Thunderbirds, which is theUnited States Air Force
equivalent of the Blue Angelswhich are the Navy so working
with them and I think it's allwe all have the same drive the
(29:31):
same same idea the samelifestyle, although their flying
suits are a lot tighter thanours so
Dave Rogers (29:41):
amazing. That's really tickles me. Both is that
handover like then between youand your predecessor?
James Turner (29:52):
I think it's it's the the fact that you're now
starting with the red arrow soyou you can almost call yourself
part of the team But obviouslyyou're not because you're just
sitting in the backseat. So Ithink it's a mixture of all of
how, how am I going to get tothe stage that he is now I've
been following this. And he's atthe end of his first season. So
he is doing really well. And I'mjust starting. But I think it's
(30:14):
also a pride and excitement ofthat what's coming up. So I flew
in the backseat for threedisplays over Huntington Beach,
which was about a million peoplewatching. There's an amazing
experience and look out andseeing all of the people down
the beach, in their shorts and Tshirt watching us live. And it
was an awesome experience.
Dave Rogers (30:34):
Do you? Do you have any idea what what the
atmosphere is like down there? Imean, I'm sure you've been on
the ground when there's been awhen there's been a display. So
you've you've kind of felt ityourself. But do you get a
feeling of, of what's going onbelow you?
James Turner (30:50):
I think if you say we can either take off from a an
airfield and display with thesame airfield, or we can take
off somewhere and then flysomewhere to displays. It
depends on how the where the airshow is and what we're doing. I
think obviously, if you walk tothe aircraft in front of all the
crowds, and you get to crew intothe aircraft, whatever was
watching, which was we had inFinland. So my first actual
(31:11):
public display lesson we didthis year. That was quite
exciting that the network waswatching it. As I'm getting in,
all the crowds are watching usstart the aircraft up and
taxiing out. I think if you arethe Huntington Beach, we are
flying out of an airfield thatwas 50 miles away 4050 miles
away, you don't get the samesort of experience. So I think
actually, you just arrived overan air show, you're
(31:33):
concentrating on red one, whichis the red aircraft in front,
which is what I'm looking at,and it was the whole time, you
didn't get much chance to lookdown to see in the crowd. So
it's a bit of a mix, I think youcan always get a quick glance to
see there were 10 people outthere where there's a million
people out there
Dave Rogers (31:47):
a million people.
What happens afterwards, whenyou finish what ambitions Do you
have then as a pilot?
James Turner (31:59):
That's a very difficult question. So it would
normally be we normally join theteam for three years. At the end
of the three years, you just goit's treated as a normal tour in
the military. So flying toursabout three years long. And then
you move on to the next one. SoI could go back to same aircraft
I used to flip fly, or I couldgo do something different,
right? go across the F 35. Or goto a training world or even go
(32:20):
by a desk and do some more staffwork rather than flying as to
what I want to do. I don't know,I'm lucky in the fact that
because last year was pausedinto this year, I've actually
got a four year tour. So that Ican delay that decision to
later. But some people likethey've now hit the pinnacle of
lions, they stopped flying. Somepeople just enjoy it. Some
(32:42):
people go and leave to go enjoyan airliner. So it's it's quite
a wide ranging.
Dave Rogers (32:47):
You You can't stop flying. Surely
James Turner (32:52):
some people do. I don't know. I'm enjoying the
flying. I think it's great. ButI think some people think
they've hit the the pinnacle. Sothey've done what they wanted to
do. They display they're takinga an old aircraft around the
world, they've done pretty muchthe best fly they think they can
do unless they decide,
Ben Hall (33:08):
like it must take its toll as well flying in sort of
that high stress and highprecision environment,
completely manual flying, youknow, in front of the world
doing that for four years now.
James Turner (33:21):
I think it does, I think
I think so I think people get bythe end of their time, they
think that's actually now timeto stop. So I think people say
around about three yearsactually quite a nice length to
do. I think it also takes a tollon your family life as well.
During the summer months, I'llbe away every sort of Thursday
to Monday, pretty much. So Idon't come home very often you
(33:45):
just see your family, wife,kids, just in a sort of short
period. It's I think that'swhere actually starts to take
tell when people get to the endthe game, amazing experience, a
little bit selfish of beinghonest. So you get to do some
great stuff. But now it's timeto actually see the family and
spend more time at home.
Dave Rogers (34:03):
It's interesting, you say the words the word
selfish that i think i thinkthat's incredibly self aware for
you even to acknowledge itbecause you've already said that
you're a representative, notjust of the RAF, but of Great
Britain as a country on theworld stage, which many people
would just look at and thinkwell, it's almost your, your
civic duty, if you're able to doit, then you have to do it. But
(34:26):
to kind of have the selfawareness to realise that that
actions sort of have reactionsand take their toll on people
around you. Is that is thatsomething that you do think
about?
James Turner (34:37):
I think so i think so. My wife's in the military as
well. She's okay. I like themilitary. So I'm lucky in that
stage. The fact that we bothunderstand that being a part of
the military, you end up movingaround quite a lot. That guy
four week month, six monthstours away from the family. But
I think we both know that it'sit's something I've always
wanted to do. So she's reallybehind me, but at the end of the
(34:59):
time It'll be a good way toactually step back a little bit
and then see what we move on. Asa family from there.
Dave Rogers (35:07):
I wonder what you'll do?
Ben Hall (35:15):
Check back in in three years time and see where you're
heading.
Dave Rogers (35:17):
Yeah, exactly. I'll
James Turner (35:18):
be even grayer and even bolder,
Ben Hall (35:21):
are telling me about it.
Dave Rogers (35:23):
I'm doing fantastically, it's still pretty
ginger. I wonder I can seebehind you there. You've got a
ukulele and a guitar, I wonderif you will actually be a
musical rock star as well as aas an aviation one.
James Turner (35:39):
I was just saying to my wife, it's always
difficult to work out what stickbehind here. I'm not very
musical. I've tried to learn theguitar. I couldn't play that
one. So I bought another one.
Ah. And the ukulele was actuallya present that got sent out to
my wife which was away for a fewmonths. She's she is the musical
one of the families. Sohopefully with musical This was
around my kids will pick it upbetter than I am.
Dave Rogers (36:03):
I love that. So you've got an acoustic guitar is
that I can't play that. So I getan electric one, because that's
louder. And if I'm gonna play itbadly, I may as well play it
loud. And
James Turner (36:13):
that was exactly it. I can't play this one. I
bought another one.
Dave Rogers (36:17):
With regards to the with regards to children, then,
we've already mentioned aboutaviation families, and neither
of you are from traditionallyflying families, would you
encourage your kids to eitherfollow you into the RF or follow
you into the air?
James Turner (36:34):
I think I would definitely say I've really
enjoyed it, I would definitelynot dissuade either of them for
joining. So I'm not one of thesepeople who are a doctor and then
say I don't be a doctor, becauseI think I think there's great
advantages for it. To be honest,I think in 20 years time, which
is kind of where they're theywill probably be joining this in
(36:55):
a military world. I think the orthe aviation world and the
aviation will change quite alot. We are already looking at
going more down autonomousremotely piloted vehicles. I
think they'll only go one way itdoes make sense. I think it'll
go further and further away fromthe actual blind. So I would not
say, don't do it. I've had agreat time. But I could imagine
(37:16):
the whole world would change in20 years time where they'd be
looking at 20.
Dave Rogers (37:21):
So do you consider yourself lucky to be in the
position where you are now whereyou're still able to do
something that you lovesomething that may not exist in
even a couple of generations?
time?
James Turner (37:32):
Oh, massively, I think it's, I think it's an
amazing position to be in andopportunity to have is
absolutely great. Everyonealways says it used to be
better. And it It probably didin the aviation world, it
probably did used to be evenbetter 40 years ago, but then
people died more often in lifein my area of expertise. So at
the moment, it's relativelysafe. And it's exciting.
Dave Rogers (37:55):
How can it be? How can it have been better, you
still find the same planes.
James Turner (38:02):
Fewer rules back then?
Dave Rogers (38:05):
Something I've not talked about yet, JT. But it
turns up whenever somebody Well,let's, let's be honest, Google's
your name, you're a creamy. Now,I don't know whether that's a
good thing or a bad thing. Socan you give us the rundown,
please,
James Turner (38:23):
it's a bit of a mix thing at the time, you think
it's a bad thing, in the longterm is actually quite a good
thing. So throughout FlyingTraining, you normally get to
the end of your final test,flight training, and then you go
on to the frontline. So you gointo the Harrier, the tornado,
the typhoon. But just before weget to that, so just at the end,
they sometimes take some peopleto stay back to instruct. So
(38:45):
it's kind of arrogantly thoughtof as the dream, essentially the
top lot to get stuck behind. SoI was going through Flying
Training, I thought I was goingto leave the training system and
go on to the frontline. I wastold at my last day of actually
on the squadron, you're notgoing anywhere. You're staying
here for three years. The termis painful, especially it's the
(39:06):
cream across the top of a livingbrought back.
Dave Rogers (39:08):
But at the time, it's terrible. earmarked for
greatness. So I'd imagine eventhough it is, as you say it's
the cream, it's the best of thebest. I'd imagine you've got a
fair bit of stick about it.
James Turner (39:21):
Yes, pretty much.
Yeah, definitely. So you'reabout to go and go onto a
bigger, faster, more powerfulaircraft and you get stuck
sitting in the backseat teachingother people but it's actually
an honour to be asked but ortold rather than asked. But it's
Dave Rogers (39:35):
a shame at the time. But looking back, it was
good fun. And because your yourflight schedule is so intense
now three flights a day, fivedays a week, and then the shows
does that mean? You don't do anyinstruction at the moment does
that take a break for yourperiod with the team.
James Turner (39:50):
So at the moment, all I'm doing is being a rest
pilot. So during the winter, Itrain to be as good as I can and
then during the summer I amtrying to be as good as I can.
If I'm public. So you do otherstuff. So we'll organise some
other secondary duties we talkabout pretty much why my, my
role is just to be an hour'spilot, which is great. If I can
(40:11):
just focus on me be the bestpilot I can be.
Ben Hall (40:15):
I'd like to know if you've had any. Let's not call
them near misses, but slightlysketchy experiences in the Air
Force that felt made you feel alittle bit uncomfortable with
your flying.
James Turner (40:29):
I think as a whole, I've been relatively
lucky. So I've not had any majorissues with flying. I think you,
we spent all of our timepractising for emergencies. And
we use the simulator quite alot. As I said, as I assume you
do as well. We do quite a lot ofpractising for emergencies. So
when things go wrong, we weroughly know hopefully know how
(40:51):
to, to sort them out. I supposeit wasn't actually a major
issue, but I was at thatprobably 10 years ago. Now I was
flying a hawk, which is the sameaircraft I fly now but it was a
black one. And it was what itused for the the training. And I
had a student in the backseatand we're just flying through
clouds. And there was a massiveflash and a bang, I thought was
(41:13):
a couple of weeks ahead of theaircraft. And I shouted out what
was that with a few other wordsand the the student in the back
because I think we should bestruck by lightning like yeah, I
probably should know that waspretty obvious actually. But we
carried on flying is it's prettyold aircraft, I think really
happened with it. We landed andrealised that we'd had lightning
and got in the Peto tubes, thebit of metal that sticks out the
(41:35):
front of the aircraft, and hadcome out of the the tail plane,
the back was there were holes inboth of it. And we didn't
realise that if the aircraft wasfine didn't actually make any
difference to it. Because we'rein a Faraday cage. It was a bit
more exciting to realise I hadbeen struck by lightning without
realised, so
Ben Hall (41:49):
that didn't mess up your instruments or anything.
Your SP was still fine. And
James Turner (41:52):
it was absolutely fine. It was the the aircraft
were jolted as it happened. Iwas we were in relatively thick
cloud, but it wasn't very highcloud. So I didn't think it
definitely wasn't a CV, so Ididn't actually think we would
have any issues with thelightning. But the aircraft did
jump quite a lot. We flew outinside of the cloud, and we flew
back to our F Valley, which isNorthwest Wales, and then
(42:15):
realised the lightning bolt hadgone through the aircraft
eventually. I was lucky.
Ben Hall (42:26):
Because I've been hit by lightning a few times an
airliner but because we're sobig, we barely realise it. You
kind of have a little bit of acrack, but you don't see it at
all. So you know, it's right infront of you.
Dave Rogers (42:38):
So did you. You mentioned a big bang, you
actually heard it you you feltit essentially,
James Turner (42:45):
definitely heard it. And there's a big flash in
front of me. I thought it was infront of me. It obviously was
only about a metre in front ofme as we sit quite close to the
front of the aircraft. So itYes, I thought it was just a
lightning bolt going near me andrealised actually gone through
the aircraft.
Dave Rogers (43:04):
Well,
James Turner (43:05):
the Faraday cage worked and the electricity went
around the outside. And yeah,
Dave Rogers (43:09):
we carried on flying. And now you're here
telling a great story on apodcast? Is that is that not
normal? is the wrong word. Doyou know anybody else that's
happened to
James Turner (43:25):
just say but it does happen more with the
civilian airliners in the factthat they are probably more
robust for that sort of thing.
Because it can happen often. Andyou see photos lightning going
through the airlines. It hashappened a few times and Mercury
it does happen. The if youexpect if you know you've been
hit by lightning, we will alwaystry and divert to Atlanta to the
nearest airfield because we'renot sure what's going on with
(43:46):
it. I actually think it causesthat much of an issue to the
aircraft. Because it is the bigbox around electricity just
flies. But it goes round it butit can cause issue the
instruments. But I'm in an oldaircraft. So I've got very few
instruments.
Dave Rogers (44:04):
When you're actually have gas gauges and
jets. When you're actually information, how close are you
wing to wing.
James Turner (44:15):
So we move around to different formations, we can
do different shapes. So whenwe're flying all I'm actually
looking at his red ones that Ikeep referring to him. He's a
team leader. He's the one at thefront at the top of the diamond.
And we're all transmittedthrough so even if there's
someone inside me so I've got menumber two, and then what and if
(44:37):
you can see that effectively,I'm looking at the canopy of the
guy next to me at the boss'shead so I'm trying to dispose
off him. We're around about sixfoot to two metres away roughly.
But the weird bit is that I'mnot looking at the person who's
two metres away from me. I'mlooking at the person through
that and hoping the person nextto me doesn't wobble and hit. So
(44:59):
it's quite Step change adifferent way of doing rather
than looking at the personnearest you, you're actually
looking through the person nextto you and just trusting each
other.
Dave Rogers (45:07):
So I'm just looking at my bedroom door, now you're
around about the height of mybedroom door from the jet next
year,
James Turner (45:16):
roughly, yeah, it's kind of what you're looking
after the wingtips
Dave Rogers (45:19):
bed, in a commercial plane, what is
considered a near miss?
Ben Hall (45:25):
Yeah, that'll be uncomfortable. Well, vertically,
anything less than 1000 feet isnot good. And horizontally, I
mean, if you get within a fewmiles of somebody, you've done
something a bit wrong. So 60 is
Dave Rogers (45:48):
quite tight. And that that six feet is that is
that kind of calculated. So ifyou are all flying correctly, at
the correct speed, the correctaltitude, you can't feel the
planes either side of us, youkind of get any any wobble to
use a layman's term,
James Turner (46:07):
you can get the wobble, eventually, you're the
airflow being disrupted. Butactually, we always try and fly
out of the the airflow. So if weare flying directly behind
someone, we will always sit low,okay, know from the ground or
look like we're all in line, butwe're actually a little bit low,
we pretty much put the tailplane, in the in the jetty flux,
(46:28):
effectively, that's the sort ofheight we're looking at. So you
can, if you clean it up a littlebit, you can feel it vibrate,
others say we're descending downa little bit,
Ben Hall (46:35):
how's it feel, I'm really sort of, you know, those
really horrible, hot, humid,turbulent days, that must be a
real struggle, sort of justdoing your regular formations.
And
James Turner (46:46):
so that's one of the things that the brilliant UK
weather trains us foreffectually. So the turbulent
weather is the issue. So whetherthe, because we're down at 300
feet to the bottom of our loops,and things were quite close to
the trees, so actually, treesand hills and hangars create a
(47:06):
bit of turbulence. So wind offthem crashing causes issues. And
again, the hot days haveactually really got the
turbulent air rising, that makeseverything quite bumpy. So
that's harder when we arelooking at an aircraft that's
not next to us. But we're allbouncing around quite a lot. And
that's one of the things Inoticed the very first time I
sat in the back of the team, youwe bounced around more than you
(47:28):
see from the ground, becausewe're the stalls are 30 foot
wide aircraft moving up and downby a metre fit in the aircraft
feels quite a lot from theground, you don't actually see
it. So we do bounce around quitea lot. It's a lot easier. It's
nice and smooth. But we have tojust get used to that because he
can't choose what the issuesare.
Dave Rogers (47:47):
So part of your sort of being in the backseat
with that training, then is thatto get used to flying in such
close proximity just to the feelof it, or is that something that
you'd already done.
James Turner (48:01):
So the whole code flight, the moments, the red
arrows is a 20 day class, it'sgot two seats, one at the front,
then 130 behind it. And thedepending on the rules are
getting more strict for variousreasons. But when I first joined
the Air Force, it's actuallyrelatively easy to sit in the
backseat. And you could do thatif you are a fast jet pilot, but
(48:21):
we're not joining the team atall. So you can have it be
phoned up and come and sit inthe backseat. So it's a great
way of actually just seeing whatthe red arrows do. And that's
what I did when I first became afast jet pilot. Admittedly, it's
harder now because of rules andvarious reasons. But we can
still take people in thebackseat, mostly though, if they
are trying to join the team. Sonow we use it more of a, you're
(48:43):
interested join the team, Comefly with us for three times a
day, or for the selectionprocess, which is about a week
long interview. If you're in thebackseat every day about three
times a day, and just to seewhat the tempo is like and
actually enjoy it.
Dave Rogers (48:58):
Is there anyone that doesn't?
James Turner (49:01):
I think by the time they get to go away the the
interview, so every year we werelooking at bringing in three new
pilots, and it's a about 30 to50 people apply each year, we
whittle it down to about eightor nine, and then we take them
away. Sounds amazing. We nearlyalways go to Greece or to
Cyprus. We do it because we needthe weather. So you can
(49:23):
guarantee flying three times aday, five days a week. But we
also take them out so we canlive with them for a week and
actually see whether they likeit and be with it. Whether we
like them eventually. People doget to the end of it and go You
know what, this is not. Thisisn't for me. I think Molly by
the time people get to thatstage they've already blown with
the back seat of Australia. Wantto join?
Dave Rogers (49:42):
Of course they do.
Of course how to. Have you everbeen up in anything like that
bad?
Ben Hall (49:50):
I'm too tall. I'm six foot five. I can't show it in
anything remotely. I applied forthe Air Force when I was when I
was 1617. And I failed mymedical because my femur was too
long.
Dave Rogers (50:08):
Really?
Ben Hall (50:10):
Yeah. But I think it's just for the ejection seat. So
they stream everybody. But themedical is done for the fast
chair. Is that correct?
James Turner (50:18):
JT. As far as I'm aware, I think yes.
Ben Hall (50:21):
Yeah. So they hold everyone to the kind of the
highest standards from thebeginning. And yeah, I think I'd
lose my kneecaps if I objected.
So they just said, forgot.
James Turner (50:33):
Well, I hope I'm short.
Dave Rogers (50:37):
You are the perfect size for red arrow, which I'm
pretty sure most people wouldtake. Well, I hope that you are
nobody you ever knows has toreject ever. So we will just, we
will just leave that one whereit is? JT. Is there anything
else you would like to to add tothis? This has been such a
brilliant conversation. Thankyou.
James Turner (50:59):
I know from I've really enjoyed it. I, I've
really enjoyed my career in theaviation world, I think, in the
military is what has beenbrilliant. I think I've I
personally, would say the bestbit about being in the team. And
the Air Force, the whole is thecamaraderie, the fact that you
get to go away with like mindedpeople. Pretty much all my best
(51:19):
friends are the people I workwith, which is great. It's a
great way to live with withgreat friends and meet different
people and also do things aroundthe world. So I think it's
brilliant. I know it's not foreveryone, but I definitely
recommend you go for aviation,if it was interested.
Dave Rogers (51:34):
I'm so pleased that due to everything that's that's
gone on, you've got theopportunity to extend as well.
So you can do all of the thingsthat you really look forward to
when you when you kind of firstgot accepted. And I'll certainly
be keeping an eye out to seewhere you to end up because I
think you're gonna have someincredible adventures. And
hopefully, this, this podcastwill still be running in a
(51:57):
couple years time. Will you comeback on once you've had a few
more adventures and talk usthrough them?
James Turner (52:03):
I'd be delighted.
Yeah. be honoured to come backup again. As long as you don't
show like a difference. This iswhat I looked like three years
ago. This is what I look likenow with bags under the eyes and
less hair.
Dave Rogers (52:15):
Yeah, sure. You've just got to make sure that you
still fit in the same flyingsuit. Good man. Thanks, JT.
Cheers.
Ben Hall (52:26):
Thanks for listening to the pilot based podcast.
We'll be back next week withanother great guest from the
aviation industry. Don't forgetto check out our new career
platform at pilot base COMM Andall the socials at pilot base
HQ. If you enjoyed this podcastDon't forget to subscribe and
rice review
Hello, and welcome to the pilot based podcast. I'm Ben
and I've been a pilot for over adecade,
Dave Rogers (00:11):
and I'm categorically not a pilot.
Ben Hall (00:14):
Every Monday we'll be chatting to both pilots and non
pilots with amazing aviationstories from all around the
world. You can find all episodesof the pilot based podcast for
free wherever you get yourpodcasts. If you like what
you're hearing, subscribe to ourchannel and leave us a review.
Dave Rogers (00:28):
In Episode Four. We flight left Tennant James
Turner, aka j t. a bonafide ered arrow currently flying as
red for in the Royal Air ForceAerobatic Team. Now as you'd
expect from someone who playssuch an integral part in
something so brilliantlyBritish, he's very modest about
his achievements. Thankfully forhim, myself and Ben, were a lot
(00:49):
less modest on his behalf. Evenmore the famous red flights,
it's perfect. And here he is.
Right, we're doing this by theway, it's a video and an audio
podcast. So those of you whoaren't watching on video, JT has
come fully stashed up for theoccasion, and I've never seen
(01:10):
anybody looks so radiant in red,and bearing in mind, I'm a Wales
rugby fan. That is more praisethan you'd expect it.
James Turner (01:21):
I wouldn't normally wear the red for Wales.
Yeah.
Dave Rogers (01:25):
So we're in the middle right now.
James Turner (01:28):
I'm in Lincolnshire, so I live just
south of Lincoln. And the we flyfrom just north Lincoln. So
basically Scampton Okay.
Dave Rogers (01:36):
Do you ever spend any time in Wittering? That's
the one with the Harrieroutside, isn't it?
James Turner (01:41):
I've driven past it many times. I think I've
probably been in there aboutonce, but I've never had any
time there. But yeah, I'vedriven past it many, many times.
I've done the a one.
Dave Rogers (01:49):
Yeah, that's the one that catches my eye. And
Anyway, I digress. We've got somuch so much to talk about
today. Thanks for jumping onboard. Ben. I want to start with
how you and JT met because whenwe had a bit of a chat before
welcoming James into the room,you said that it was at a
(02:12):
wedding and you were attachingevaluated, you just want to get
that out of the way out in theopen or?
Ben Hall (02:18):
Yeah, we've met a couple of times. So this is
through a mutual friend of ours.
I've known him since school whenhe's in the Air Force now flying
f 35. And JT was on the samecourse as he wasn't he going
through
James Turner (02:32):
courses, but we worked together for three years,
he was just a little bit aheadof me. And then we ended up
working together in a structuretogether on the on the same
aircraft on fly now.
Ben Hall (02:42):
Okay, so yeah, the probably the first meeting is an
RF Valley then in North Wales,for some kind of graduation, I
want to say lots of booze. Very,very messy night. And then my
friend's wedding A few yearslater, was a slightly more
sophisticated affair.
James Turner (03:01):
We started off that.
Ben Hall (03:03):
Well, yeah, of course, it died pretty quickly.
Dave Rogers (03:07):
So you were all dressed? Well, to begin with? Is
that what we're getting? Well,
Ben Hall (03:11):
some more than others, they were all in their RF garb,
like a proper dress. outfit, andI was just in a scary suit. So
Dave Rogers (03:19):
Oh, you're telling me you don't wear your
commercial pilot's uniform. Soweddings?
Maybe you should startsomething. Anyway, I digress.
Let's talk about becoming apilot, then. Was it a childhood
dream? Are you from an aviationfamily of forces family? How did
(03:41):
that? How did it manifest itselfto begin with?
James Turner (03:44):
So I'm not really from a forces family. So I think
my great grandfather, my great,great grandfather, fought in the
Second World War, but I nevermet it. And then since then,
we've not got any militaryhistory at all in the Air Force
in my family. So it was prettymuch out of the blue. I joined
it, but actually, I think I wasI was sitting in, I was in
(04:05):
somewhere in Italy, and I sawtwo jets flying. And when I was
about 12, I think that'd becool. So that's pretty much the
first time I actually thoughtthat is quite interesting thing
to do. And then on and offthroughout University in sixth
form, I sort of applied, didn'tprepare very well failed, think
form and then applied later on.
I had my ego bruised, and thenstarts again, and then actually
(04:26):
after universities, but I got abit carried on from there.
Ben Hall (04:31):
So you failed to get into the Air Force first time.
James Turner (04:34):
So there was a sick form scholarship where they
would teach you to fly anaircraft. I had no preparation
for the interview. I think I wasa good life lesson to actually
put some effort into it ratherthan just turn up and hopefully
I can get it. I got the secondtime.
Dave Rogers (04:48):
What I love about that story is you were in Italy
and you saw jets. And you'dactually I'm assuming you had
flown to Italy in the firstplace. Yes. I just thought now,
these these big things with lotsof people are no interest to me
whatsoever
James Turner (05:03):
I want to be, I want to be in the sports cars.
So I wouldn't want to insultanybody flies them, but it's not
it's not my interest at themoment. Maybe in a few years
time I'll be changing my mind tobring it up better and say,
Ben Hall (05:15):
Can I get a job you don't want to implicate yourself
a future career options do thisI'll come
Dave Rogers (05:21):
specially with the millions of listeners that this
podcast currently appeals to.
Okay, so when you when youdidn't get into the RAF the
first time, was there any partof you that thought maybe this
isn't for me, or did that sortof galvanise your determination
to go in that direction?
James Turner (05:40):
I think so. But so little effort into initially,
you didn't really, it was justgoing to be quite interesting to
go and do and it wasn't join theairforce, it's just to go and do
a sixth form scholarship. Okay,about about 30 hours of flying
out of got. So I tried that andget in, took a step back and
then finished a levels went touniversity and then at
university during the thefreshers fair I saw some people
(06:03):
are flying suits so much gocheck them, they found out they
were the university AirSquadron. And I pretty much do
the same thing. But slightlymore official, you're still not
joining the Air Force, thenyou're still interested in like,
you don't have to want to jointhe Air Force tall, it can just
be a good way to go and seedifferent parts of the world go
around Europe and be skiing inthe winter. And also fly as
well. So as a sort of a steppingstone in. That's still a an in
(06:25):
Yes, you still need to. Yeah,give the application afterwards.
Dave Rogers (06:29):
A telephone
James Turner (06:30):
that does sound like fun, though, doesn't it? I
would recommend that even ifyou're not interested in the
military at all. I think theuniversity Air Squadron isn't
absolutely probably one of thebest clubs University
Dave Rogers (06:38):
While they were there many people involved with
the Air Squadron that weren'tinterested in taking it further
James Turner (06:45):
though. I think in the interview to get in because
this like a semi, unfortunatelyto get in. Everyone says they
are interested. But the peopledoing the interviews and know
that most of the people who areon the US it's called University
Air Squadron are reallyinterested or will never get in.
So it's just a good way ofshowing future business leaders
and future counsellors what theAir Force is like, and it's a
(07:07):
good way of having people onyour side. So when the Air Force
is going to a local council totry and sort something out. They
had I remember my time on theuniversity Air Squadron,
hopefully positively.
Dave Rogers (07:19):
So took me through your first flight then or the
first flight that you ever tookresponsibility for I always
refer to it as responsibilitybecause I think it is I full
disclosure, I am not a pilot, asI constantly remind everybody on
this podcast, Ben is the expert.
I asked the questions, I thinkexperts a bit of a push. I asked
the questions that he'd probablysound very silly if he asked. So
(07:42):
I do think every time that youthat you do fly a plane, it is
his huge responsibility. So doyou remember the very first time
that you went up?
James Turner (07:53):
I think most pilots remember the first time
they were solo in an aircraft.
Yeah. And he was always in aside by side, little propeller
aircraft and look across,there's no one next to you.
That's that's quite a, aninteresting view. There's
normally just about a fiveminute flight, I think my mind
definitely was a five minuteflight. First time when you're
in the aircraft on your own. Ilook across the seats empty.
(08:14):
It's just the same feeling, Isuppose is the first time you
fly a traffic car. But I thinkthat it's exciting to know that
it's now you has to land it,there's no one else to help you.
Dave Rogers (08:25):
And was that the moment that that sort of nailed
it for you where you reallythought that that was just the
love that you wanted to pursue?
James Turner (08:33):
I think so, I mean, I've never been one of
these people who are sort offrom five years old, who really
want to join the Air Force andbe a foster pilot and everything
else. So I didn't have thatdrive all the way through. But I
think as I've done more and moreinto I've realised I enjoy it
more and more. So I think mydrive has actually increased so
I've got on and it's great to besitting around now doing pretty
much what i love
Ben Hall (08:55):
it i think that's the same as me, actually, James. So
I'm not from an aviationbackground or military or
anything like that. So I had noknowledge of aviation at all. So
when I was growing up, I hadvery little interest in it, to
be honest, I mean, I quite likeplanes and stuff. They're nice,
but I didn't have this dream ofbecoming a pilot, which lots of
people do. But I'm the same thatthe more time spent in the
(09:16):
cockpit The more I fall in lovewith the profession.
James Turner (09:19):
I agree. Yeah, that's great.
Dave Rogers (09:22):
So then you are successful in an application for
the RAF was that was that firsttime the charm this time
James Turner (09:31):
it was so only applied officially for the Air
Force properly at the end ofuniversity. So it got to the end
of our my three years he appliedand then joined the next summer
of actually So as of a year ofwaiting around and getting it so
and it was 2006 when I joined.
So I've been in since then
Dave Rogers (09:47):
and prepared better this time, a little bit more. So
so you applied and yourapplication was as a pilot or to
learn to become a pilot in theAir Force is you There are lots
of different piloting jobsaren't there? There are lots of
things that you can fly. doeseveryone want to be a fast jet
(10:08):
pilot? And how do they kind ofsort? I nearly said the wheat
from the chaff there, but that'snot very fair. But But you know,
you know, the points are making.
James Turner (10:17):
I suppose it'd be quite PC here, but I think you
go through your, you do a firsttraining, which was 60 hours
flying in a twin seaterpropeller aircraft knee joint.
And then at the end of that,they stream you it's called, and
it is the the fast jet, and thenthe rotor is cool. So
helicopters, and it's the multiengine aircraft. So the the big
Hercules or the seven for sevenstyles at 30. So it is actually
(10:42):
in those orders. Now, I thinkmost people join to try and go
fast jet. But I think you findout how you are doing the first
training. change what you eitheraim for or what you say you aim
for. I don't know which one?
I've always been lucky enoughthat I've managed to still move
forward.
Ben Hall (11:02):
Very diplomatic answer there.
Dave Rogers (11:05):
Be the one that we clip up for social media.
Although I I mean, I'm from I'mfrom a military town and there
are always Hercules trundlingover the top and the pilots are
so low, you can practically givethem a wave. Make no mistake,
they are pretty amazing aircraftout there.
James Turner (11:23):
Oh, a massively, I think I think all of the flying
in the military is you flying,you can get can't do elsewhere
pretty much the whole time. Sohelicopters the rotary fly is
different. I think even themulti engine stuff is very
different. So you can do a moretactical stage. But you can also
end up doing just routes fromone place to another delivering
people on cargo. I think it's avaried lifestyle.
Ben Hall (11:46):
I think there's actually a similar sort of
comparison to the civilian worldthat when you first start flying
as a pilot, I think the dream issort of, you know, long haul
wide body aircraft. But actuallyvery quickly, some people much
prefer short haul or private jetor turboprop so that that dream,
I think can can change overtime, depending on your personal
(12:08):
situation.
Dave Rogers (12:09):
Okay, from fastjet, then, is the red arrows. Is that
a kind of carrot that's alwaysdangling there? Is that
something that you that youthink at the very beginning? I'd
really like to do that? And whatis the likelihood of you having
the opportunity to do
James Turner (12:29):
and I think for some people, I think, again,
some people have maybe five, sixyear old goes to an airshow and
sees the red arrows flying andgo, that's what I want to do and
always strive towards it. Again,I didn't do that. It wasn't
something that was even reallyon my radar. It was fact that I
would just, it was great,something to look forward to or
something to see an air show,but I didn't even know it was
(12:49):
possible to to be chosen to doit. So I personally just moving
forward has tried to do as bestas I can. But you end up in two
kind of roots of the fast jetpilots go down and it's a
weapons instructor or a flyinginstructor is kind of where
people go. So it does kind ofsplit, but you can still swap
across the two. Really, you'reworking for it. So long story
(13:13):
short, I wasn't aiming for itwhen I joined. But it's been
great in the last 510 years tothink about maybe I could start
joining that. And then here I amnow.
Dave Rogers (13:21):
Is that your actual flight suit that you've got on
now.
James Turner (13:24):
So yes, we get a number each year. Okay, this is
the red arrows flying suit. Soit's pretty much the same as the
green ones that people normallywear and we're flying. But
during the summer months when inthe red, so I'm not sure when
people actually view this video,there's a chance I wouldn't
normally be wearing the greenone at this time of year.
Actually, day to day I'm goinginto work and flying in a green
(13:47):
flag seat. And it's only when weget the PDA which is the public
display authority that is whenwe're allowed to call ourselves
red arrows and actually displayfrom the public. And that's when
we swap over to this but Ithought as I had been told when
I first got into the team tobring me down a level it's the
red fly see this famous it's notyou which actually everyone
(14:10):
recognised the red flag saidwhich is the best way of doing
this on your summary and thenyou take it off and you're back
to being
Dave Rogers (14:17):
just James What does it say? What does it say on
the on the chest?
James Turner (14:23):
So is my name eventually be the the actual
term for the red arrows or theRoyal Air Force? Aerobatic Team
Rafat is what we call it.
Everyone knows is the redarrows. It's actually
technically the Royal Air ForceAerobatic Team.
Dave Rogers (14:38):
And you are red for?
James Turner (14:40):
That's correct.
Yes. So I'm in my second year,but it's because last year so
the display season 2020 was sostrange, obviously with what's
going on around the world. Wepause the team so normally every
year, we change positions, butthe last year into this year we
paused it so it was in the sameposition. is a bit of a strange
situation
Ben Hall (15:01):
Oh, you change every year do?
James Turner (15:03):
Yes. So as a rough big picture in, you guys start
near the boss to start near thefront of the formation. And as
you get better you move furtheraway is kind of how it works. So
I'm running my first year andthe there's three new people
started. And it's two, three andfour. So before we started, but
then because the last year was aweird we only did three displays
(15:25):
actually probably displaysrather than sort of 40 or 50,
you'd normally expect we'vestayed the same positions to
keep the continuity.
Dave Rogers (15:33):
So if you're four, are you on the are you on the
right or the left? How do thenumbers work from water,
James Turner (15:40):
I'm gonna get a decent visual, I have a symbol
on my front of X ray, I can seeyour I don't know if I am still
on your sternum. Yeah, mirroredin this picture. But I am on the
right hand side. So if you'relooking down on the formation on
the right hand side,
Dave Rogers (15:57):
so where are you the first one are you the first
blue?
James Turner (16:04):
It depends. So we have seven minutes of smoke
light one minute of red one isblue. So we change around which
colours we're using to try anduse all of the smoke in a
display right now. Last year Iblue was my rival colour, but
this year might be different itis depends how much smoke and
(16:26):
where we wanted the colours.
Definitely. So my rival colourin the display last year was
blue. But for some flypast Imight be red just to sort the
colours red.
Dave Rogers (16:35):
Okay, and just that obviously that's that's planned
out a long time in advance, youdon't just get somebody on the
radio like bright by the wayreds on
James Turner (16:46):
for display is planned out quite a long way in
advance. But sometimes if we'reflying around the country, and
doing many different flypastsover the queen and then over
Cardiff and then some otherplaces around the country as
well. We might stop round inthat sorting, so we fly for
about an hour, but we'll beputting out different colours
depending on to try and keep agood spectacle as we fly over
(17:07):
but not running out of colourover London, which is quite
embarrassing. Oh, that
Dave Rogers (17:10):
would be an absolute disaster. Yeah. I saw
Ben Hall (17:15):
I saw was it last year or the year before there was the
French Aerobatic Team, one ofthem put the wrong colour on
Donald Trump.
James Turner (17:23):
That's happened and it happened in the Reds
about four or five years ago.
The I'm sure it's very easy todo, though.
Ben Hall (17:29):
I mean, is it just three separate buttons?
James Turner (17:32):
That's exactly it.
So the stick we fly with, andthere's three buttons on it. And
it's red on red off white onwhite off and blue on blue off.
So we swap around obviouslythroughout the show to us all.
So it is quite easy to get thewrong colour out.
Dave Rogers (17:46):
It'd be a great practical joke to put the wrong
colour in someone's tank,
James Turner (17:50):
but it'd be pretty embarrassing. Like a brown
colour Robin.
Dave Rogers (17:57):
Right I've we've got ahead of ourselves here. And
we were talking about smokealready. What does a regular day
look like for you? Firstly, asort of regular day at work. And
then I'd like to talk about aregular show day as well.
James Turner (18:12):
So during the winter months, and from around
about November to about May,within the winter training, as
we go back to green flyingseats, and we're flying three
times a day. So the day wouldstart to round about eight
o'clock in the morning. So ofcourse it's way eight o'clock in
the morning. And then we do amap briefs, we talked about the
weather, and what we're going tobe aiming to do for that day.
And then we go pretty muchstraight into a sortie brief.
(18:34):
And so we brief about what wecan do in the flight, we don't
go and do the flight and then wecome and do a debrief. I think
this is something from what I'maware, it's quite different to
lots of civilian flying thestaff that the debrief is
probably the most important partof military flight. So at the
end of what we're doing hereafter each practice, which is
about 30 minutes, airborne, willthen pretty much watch that in
(18:54):
real time with a video and thenpause and stop to see how we are
doing and whether we are in thewrong position and the Smokeout
split second too early and allthat sort of stuff. So the
debrief is actually probablymore important than natural
flying, so we can pick updifferences in how to improve
next time,
Ben Hall (19:11):
and whose video and all of these sorties. Is
James Turner (19:14):
it from the ground? Someone on the ground?
Yes. So we've always got we callit the the display centre,
essentially. So as thoughthere's one person still
standing on the display line,where we're displaying to that's
what all air shows all displaysare aimed at. Obviously, it
looks good from everywhere,whatever where you are, but it's
actually all of the crossingpoints and everything is
(19:35):
actually a me at one point. Sothe camera ban there will come
out obviously. And then it's awe use that for two reasons, one
for debriefing. But also for ifanything goes wrong, we've got a
video evidence to see why therewas an accident or why something
went wrong. So it's good way tolearn from that as well. And
then so the brief flight debriefcycle lasts about an hour hour
(20:00):
and a half to two hoursprobably. And that we do that
three times a day,
Dave Rogers (20:04):
five days a week.
And Goodness me. That's, that'samazing. So, so 1515 flights a
week, no questions asked.
James Turner (20:13):
It's quite tiring, it definitely gets a walk into
it. But the flights are quiteshort. So the aircraft I flown
beforehand, you could normallydo about an hour and a half
sortie. But with air to airrefuelling, you can easily go up
to 468 hours of flying as well.
Or we're only way we're using itat the moment, we only do about
30 to 40 minutes of practising.
Dave Rogers (20:35):
But let's talk about those aircraft, then.
Because it would be easy tothink that as as the red arrows,
the world famous red arrows,that just just looks so
spectacular in the sky, thatyou'd be using brand new jets
every year. And you know thatthe height of technology, but
that's not necessarily the case.
James Turner (20:57):
That's not the case in the slightest. The
aircraft was designed in the70s. And we first flew it in the
United ladies. So we are flyingthe same aircraft. Now that we
flew in the red arrows, the1980s. So they are quite old.
However, they are the absoluteperfect aircraft for us. So it's
a it's often described as asmall sports car. So it's got
(21:19):
none of the electronic kit thata Ferrari would have or anything
else. But it's a small LotusElise style thing with no abs,
no traction control is just youfly the aircraft, which is
actually perfect. So it is old,but is the absolute ideal
aircraft.
Ben Hall (21:35):
I imagine it's an absolute nightmare for things
like North Atlantic transitsthough.
James Turner (21:40):
That is true. Yes.
So we, depending on how we flyus obviously fly higher, we use
less fuel. But we fly around ina big formations, it's harder to
get a big formation about highsand lows, very rules, but rvsm
and restrictions and stuff,which I'll show you where we
aren't obvious and compliance.
We can't fly in controlledairspace and of that 27,000 feet
(22:03):
around the world. So we try tofly low. So long story short, we
do around about 600 mile hops iswhat we aim for we're travelling
around the world, which meanstrying to get across to North
America, we have to try and findlittle bits of land with a
runway on within 600 miles. Andthat involves going around
Scotland and then Greenland,Iceland, Canada, and then come
(22:24):
back around. So two years ago,the team were in America, and
actually getting across therewas one of the hardest bits,
because you're looking atlanding in airfields with no
instrument recovery procedures,and no diversion airfields as
well. So you've got one go. Soyou have to make a decision. If
you draw a line on the maphalfway through that line, you
(22:45):
find out the weather's goodenough where you're trying to
land and you make a decisionwhere they are going to go for a
turn around. And I think it'sit's a little bit more exciting
and quite an old aircraft.
Strike. Yeah, cuz
Ben Hall (22:57):
I mean, in in civilian airliners, we've got the luxury
of, you know, all sorts of wizzygadgets, where you can get live
weather updates and no tabs forall the fields. And you know,
we've got everything on littleiPads and computers, where if
you guys it's paper on yourknee, do you even have
autopilot? No autopilot on this
James Turner (23:16):
aircraft, so we can trim it. And that's about
it. We've got an old GPS that wecan use. It's a black and green
screens, it's black and whitescreen. And we've got some
pretty much steam driven dials.
But it's a it's a great aircraftto fly and it's a light
manoeuvrable aircraft and ithandles exactly as you'd want it
(23:38):
to. So it's perfect when you getto the air shows. But trying to
get to the air shows can be abit more challenging. It's easy
for me, I just wanted the personin front.
Dave Rogers (23:49):
So I think I already know the answer to this
question then if they if theyoffered you a brand new plane
now they were going tocompletely overhaul everything?
Would the would you and the restof the pilots the rest of the
team sort of round against itand go No, this is what we've
got. This is what we need. Theseare the red arrows.
James Turner (24:10):
Well as a difficult question, because the
the BA haut we're flying themoment will run out of his life
where that's going to becurrently it's looking at 2030.
So he's got another 10 yearsleft of it. But at some stage,
it will just be an economical toactually keep it going because
it's running out of fatigue liferunning out of spares for it. So
(24:31):
we will run out what we replaceit with I don't know and no one
seems to know yet. We're stillhaving an IRA deciding I don't
think the government will wantto get rid of the team. We
probably won't have any partsthe military that actually
brings more money into thecountry then it costs but it's a
we will replace it as to what toreplace it for. There'll be
advantages and disadvantagesgoing for new aircraft but I
(24:53):
think what we've got at themoment is actually perfect for
using it for
Dave Rogers (24:58):
let's talk show days then. The obviously the the
training the rehearsals if youwant to if you want to call on
that, that sounds prettyintense. What is the show day
look like?
James Turner (25:10):
So it's difficult.
So I have been on the team forone year with one display
season, we only did three shows.
So I can talk about what itwould be like, can't give you a
fully honest answer. However,the reason why we do the three
flights a day and we work quitehard to practice what it's like
being tired, is because the showdays can be even more tiring
(25:32):
because you can do the samethree displays at different
places around the country, andthen a fourth flight to transit
to go somewhere else, you can dofour flights a day. interspersed
with that you can end up gettingto meet the public, which is
great to do is quite tiring. Soyou get to chat to people. And
that's everything from thelittle four five year old boy
(25:52):
and girl who's interested to theaviation enthusiasts. Asking
difficult questions is quite atiring summer season that can be
Dave Rogers (26:04):
I suppose that keeps you honest as well, isn't
it? The aviation enthusiastsasking the question? Is there an
emotional attachment with thered arrows because it is such an
iconic thing and such an honourcertainly, from my perspective,
as a civilian to to look uponyou as a red arrows pilot, it
(26:26):
seems like an incredibleachievement and a real honour.
So is that the case?
James Turner (26:32):
I thought I feel a massive honour to be asked to
join the team to be figureheadof the RF UK military and the UK
as a whole around the world. SoI think it's a it's an amazing
experience and amazing honour todo this job. And I'm massively
lucky to be here. And I think asyou're saying, I think lots of
(26:52):
people in the UK have the samefeeling of sort of a feeling in
their throat as we fly over butthe colours out and it's amazing
to fly over the Queen for herbirthday and to open things like
Silverstone and, and other bigevents around the country. I
think it's a really nicebirthday. And it's also good to
go around the world as well. Solast year, we did manage to go
(27:13):
to to France and to Finland, thedisplays, we flew with the
French equivalent of the redarrows down the shores of these
a and past the Eiffel Tower. Andthen we flew over Boris Johnson
in London the same day. I thinkit's amazing opportunities and
experiences. But I think it'salso great to know that people
on the ground looking up andhaving a smile we fly over
Dave Rogers (27:33):
Is there anywhere in the world you'd love to fly,
we've not had the opportunity toyet.
James Turner (27:40):
So my previous aircraft type, which was the
Eurofighter Typhoon, so it's amore of a operational aircraft,
I was lucky enough that I'vetaken over to the west coast of
America. And I've also been outto the east coast of Japan
eventually with it. So I've beenquite a long way around the
world with it. So I think it'sgreat. It's amazing to go and
see people and work with peoplefrom nationalities, different
(28:04):
nationalities and differentcultures who do exactly the same
sort of job as me. We work withthem and see different places.
So again, it's an amazingexperience.
Ben Hall (28:13):
What does the programme look like for next
week?
James Turner (28:17):
We are aiming for a big tour. I don't know if it's
on the cards we are going for.
But it's going to be a verylarge tour today for the same
sort of thing. So two years agowent to America. We're looking
at going the other way aroundthe world this time, but I'm
really
Dave Rogers (28:33):
super cool. Just just rock and roll pilots in
really, isn't it?
Unknown (28:38):
Exactly. That's.
Dave Rogers (28:41):
But you mentioned America a couple of times now,
have you come across any BlueAngels.
James Turner (28:47):
So I haven't not worked with them. But at the end
of the American tour was when Iwas joining the team. So the new
pilots, which I was just over ayear ago, you go and fly with
the current pilots in your newposition. So you find out where
you're gonna be so I find out aswe read for so at the end of
that season, I flew in the backof red force aircraft just to
(29:09):
see what it was like and see thewhole experience of all the
meeting the public and all thePR work have to do with it.
While we were out there we wereat the same airshow as the
Thunderbirds, which is theUnited States Air Force
equivalent of the Blue Angelswhich are the Navy so working
with them and I think it's allwe all have the same drive the
(29:31):
same same idea the samelifestyle, although their flying
suits are a lot tighter thanours so
Dave Rogers (29:41):
amazing. That's really tickles me. Both is that
handover like then between youand your predecessor?
James Turner (29:52):
I think it's it's the the fact that you're now
starting with the red arrow soyou you can almost call yourself
part of the team But obviouslyyou're not because you're just
sitting in the backseat. So Ithink it's a mixture of all of
how, how am I going to get tothe stage that he is now I've
been following this. And he's atthe end of his first season. So
he is doing really well. And I'mjust starting. But I think it's
(30:14):
also a pride and excitement ofthat what's coming up. So I flew
in the backseat for threedisplays over Huntington Beach,
which was about a million peoplewatching. There's an amazing
experience and look out andseeing all of the people down
the beach, in their shorts and Tshirt watching us live. And it
was an awesome experience.
Dave Rogers (30:34):
Do you? Do you have any idea what what the
atmosphere is like down there? Imean, I'm sure you've been on
the ground when there's been awhen there's been a display. So
you've you've kind of felt ityourself. But do you get a
feeling of, of what's going onbelow you?
James Turner (30:50):
I think if you say we can either take off from a an
airfield and display with thesame airfield, or we can take
off somewhere and then flysomewhere to displays. It
depends on how the where the airshow is and what we're doing. I
think obviously, if you walk tothe aircraft in front of all the
crowds, and you get to crew intothe aircraft, whatever was
watching, which was we had inFinland. So my first actual
(31:11):
public display lesson we didthis year. That was quite
exciting that the network waswatching it. As I'm getting in,
all the crowds are watching usstart the aircraft up and
taxiing out. I think if you arethe Huntington Beach, we are
flying out of an airfield thatwas 50 miles away 4050 miles
away, you don't get the samesort of experience. So I think
actually, you just arrived overan air show, you're
(31:33):
concentrating on red one, whichis the red aircraft in front,
which is what I'm looking at,and it was the whole time, you
didn't get much chance to lookdown to see in the crowd. So
it's a bit of a mix, I think youcan always get a quick glance to
see there were 10 people outthere where there's a million
people out there
Dave Rogers (31:47):
a million people.
What happens afterwards, whenyou finish what ambitions Do you
have then as a pilot?
James Turner (31:59):
That's a very difficult question. So it would
normally be we normally join theteam for three years. At the end
of the three years, you just goit's treated as a normal tour in
the military. So flying toursabout three years long. And then
you move on to the next one. SoI could go back to same aircraft
I used to flip fly, or I couldgo do something different,
right? go across the F 35. Or goto a training world or even go
(32:20):
by a desk and do some more staffwork rather than flying as to
what I want to do. I don't know,I'm lucky in the fact that
because last year was pausedinto this year, I've actually
got a four year tour. So that Ican delay that decision to
later. But some people likethey've now hit the pinnacle of
lions, they stopped flying. Somepeople just enjoy it. Some
(32:42):
people go and leave to go enjoyan airliner. So it's it's quite
a wide ranging.
Dave Rogers (32:47):
You You can't stop flying. Surely
James Turner (32:52):
some people do. I don't know. I'm enjoying the
flying. I think it's great. ButI think some people think
they've hit the the pinnacle. Sothey've done what they wanted to
do. They display they're takinga an old aircraft around the
world, they've done pretty muchthe best fly they think they can
do unless they decide,
Ben Hall (33:08):
like it must take its toll as well flying in sort of
that high stress and highprecision environment,
completely manual flying, youknow, in front of the world
doing that for four years now.
James Turner (33:21):
I think it does, I think
I think so I think people get bythe end of their time, they
think that's actually now timeto stop. So I think people say
around about three yearsactually quite a nice length to
do. I think it also takes a tollon your family life as well.
During the summer months, I'llbe away every sort of Thursday
to Monday, pretty much. So Idon't come home very often you
(33:45):
just see your family, wife,kids, just in a sort of short
period. It's I think that'swhere actually starts to take
tell when people get to the endthe game, amazing experience, a
little bit selfish of beinghonest. So you get to do some
great stuff. But now it's timeto actually see the family and
spend more time at home.
Dave Rogers (34:03):
It's interesting, you say the words the word
selfish that i think i thinkthat's incredibly self aware for
you even to acknowledge itbecause you've already said that
you're a representative, notjust of the RAF, but of Great
Britain as a country on theworld stage, which many people
would just look at and thinkwell, it's almost your, your
civic duty, if you're able to doit, then you have to do it. But
(34:26):
to kind of have the selfawareness to realise that that
actions sort of have reactionsand take their toll on people
around you. Is that is thatsomething that you do think
about?
James Turner (34:37):
I think so i think so. My wife's in the military as
well. She's okay. I like themilitary. So I'm lucky in that
stage. The fact that we bothunderstand that being a part of
the military, you end up movingaround quite a lot. That guy
four week month, six monthstours away from the family. But
I think we both know that it'sit's something I've always
wanted to do. So she's reallybehind me, but at the end of the
(34:59):
time It'll be a good way toactually step back a little bit
and then see what we move on. Asa family from there.
Dave Rogers (35:07):
I wonder what you'll do?
Ben Hall (35:15):
Check back in in three years time and see where you're
heading.
Dave Rogers (35:17):
Yeah, exactly. I'll
James Turner (35:18):
be even grayer and even bolder,
Ben Hall (35:21):
are telling me about it.
Dave Rogers (35:23):
I'm doing fantastically, it's still pretty
ginger. I wonder I can seebehind you there. You've got a
ukulele and a guitar, I wonderif you will actually be a
musical rock star as well as aas an aviation one.
James Turner (35:39):
I was just saying to my wife, it's always
difficult to work out what stickbehind here. I'm not very
musical. I've tried to learn theguitar. I couldn't play that
one. So I bought another one.
Ah. And the ukulele was actuallya present that got sent out to
my wife which was away for a fewmonths. She's she is the musical
one of the families. Sohopefully with musical This was
around my kids will pick it upbetter than I am.
Dave Rogers (36:03):
I love that. So you've got an acoustic guitar is
that I can't play that. So I getan electric one, because that's
louder. And if I'm gonna play itbadly, I may as well play it
loud. And
James Turner (36:13):
that was exactly it. I can't play this one. I
bought another one.
Dave Rogers (36:17):
With regards to the with regards to children, then,
we've already mentioned aboutaviation families, and neither
of you are from traditionallyflying families, would you
encourage your kids to eitherfollow you into the RF or follow
you into the air?
James Turner (36:34):
I think I would definitely say I've really
enjoyed it, I would definitelynot dissuade either of them for
joining. So I'm not one of thesepeople who are a doctor and then
say I don't be a doctor, becauseI think I think there's great
advantages for it. To be honest,I think in 20 years time, which
is kind of where they're theywill probably be joining this in
(36:55):
a military world. I think the orthe aviation world and the
aviation will change quite alot. We are already looking at
going more down autonomousremotely piloted vehicles. I
think they'll only go one way itdoes make sense. I think it'll
go further and further away fromthe actual blind. So I would not
say, don't do it. I've had agreat time. But I could imagine
(37:16):
the whole world would change in20 years time where they'd be
looking at 20.
Dave Rogers (37:21):
So do you consider yourself lucky to be in the
position where you are now whereyou're still able to do
something that you lovesomething that may not exist in
even a couple of generations?
time?
James Turner (37:32):
Oh, massively, I think it's, I think it's an
amazing position to be in andopportunity to have is
absolutely great. Everyonealways says it used to be
better. And it It probably didin the aviation world, it
probably did used to be evenbetter 40 years ago, but then
people died more often in lifein my area of expertise. So at
the moment, it's relativelysafe. And it's exciting.
Dave Rogers (37:55):
How can it be? How can it have been better, you
still find the same planes.
James Turner (38:02):
Fewer rules back then?
Dave Rogers (38:05):
Something I've not talked about yet, JT. But it
turns up whenever somebody Well,let's, let's be honest, Google's
your name, you're a creamy. Now,I don't know whether that's a
good thing or a bad thing. Socan you give us the rundown,
please,
James Turner (38:23):
it's a bit of a mix thing at the time, you think
it's a bad thing, in the longterm is actually quite a good
thing. So throughout FlyingTraining, you normally get to
the end of your final test,flight training, and then you go
on to the frontline. So you gointo the Harrier, the tornado,
the typhoon. But just before weget to that, so just at the end,
they sometimes take some peopleto stay back to instruct. So
(38:45):
it's kind of arrogantly thoughtof as the dream, essentially the
top lot to get stuck behind. SoI was going through Flying
Training, I thought I was goingto leave the training system and
go on to the frontline. I wastold at my last day of actually
on the squadron, you're notgoing anywhere. You're staying
here for three years. The termis painful, especially it's the
(39:06):
cream across the top of a livingbrought back.
Dave Rogers (39:08):
But at the time, it's terrible. earmarked for
greatness. So I'd imagine eventhough it is, as you say it's
the cream, it's the best of thebest. I'd imagine you've got a
fair bit of stick about it.
James Turner (39:21):
Yes, pretty much.
Yeah, definitely. So you'reabout to go and go onto a
bigger, faster, more powerfulaircraft and you get stuck
sitting in the backseat teachingother people but it's actually
an honour to be asked but ortold rather than asked. But it's
Dave Rogers (39:35):
a shame at the time. But looking back, it was
good fun. And because your yourflight schedule is so intense
now three flights a day, fivedays a week, and then the shows
does that mean? You don't do anyinstruction at the moment does
that take a break for yourperiod with the team.
James Turner (39:50):
So at the moment, all I'm doing is being a rest
pilot. So during the winter, Itrain to be as good as I can and
then during the summer I amtrying to be as good as I can.
If I'm public. So you do otherstuff. So we'll organise some
other secondary duties we talkabout pretty much why my, my
role is just to be an hour'spilot, which is great. If I can
(40:11):
just focus on me be the bestpilot I can be.
Ben Hall (40:15):
I'd like to know if you've had any. Let's not call
them near misses, but slightlysketchy experiences in the Air
Force that felt made you feel alittle bit uncomfortable with
your flying.
James Turner (40:29):
I think as a whole, I've been relatively
lucky. So I've not had any majorissues with flying. I think you,
we spent all of our timepractising for emergencies. And
we use the simulator quite alot. As I said, as I assume you
do as well. We do quite a lot ofpractising for emergencies. So
when things go wrong, we weroughly know hopefully know how
(40:51):
to, to sort them out. I supposeit wasn't actually a major
issue, but I was at thatprobably 10 years ago. Now I was
flying a hawk, which is the sameaircraft I fly now but it was a
black one. And it was what itused for the the training. And I
had a student in the backseatand we're just flying through
clouds. And there was a massiveflash and a bang, I thought was
(41:13):
a couple of weeks ahead of theaircraft. And I shouted out what
was that with a few other wordsand the the student in the back
because I think we should bestruck by lightning like yeah, I
probably should know that waspretty obvious actually. But we
carried on flying is it's prettyold aircraft, I think really
happened with it. We landed andrealised that we'd had lightning
and got in the Peto tubes, thebit of metal that sticks out the
(41:35):
front of the aircraft, and hadcome out of the the tail plane,
the back was there were holes inboth of it. And we didn't
realise that if the aircraft wasfine didn't actually make any
difference to it. Because we'rein a Faraday cage. It was a bit
more exciting to realise I hadbeen struck by lightning without
realised, so
Ben Hall (41:49):
that didn't mess up your instruments or anything.
Your SP was still fine. And
James Turner (41:52):
it was absolutely fine. It was the the aircraft
were jolted as it happened. Iwas we were in relatively thick
cloud, but it wasn't very highcloud. So I didn't think it
definitely wasn't a CV, so Ididn't actually think we would
have any issues with thelightning. But the aircraft did
jump quite a lot. We flew outinside of the cloud, and we flew
back to our F Valley, which isNorthwest Wales, and then
(42:15):
realised the lightning bolt hadgone through the aircraft
eventually. I was lucky.
Ben Hall (42:26):
Because I've been hit by lightning a few times an
airliner but because we're sobig, we barely realise it. You
kind of have a little bit of acrack, but you don't see it at
all. So you know, it's right infront of you.
Dave Rogers (42:38):
So did you. You mentioned a big bang, you
actually heard it you you feltit essentially,
James Turner (42:45):
definitely heard it. And there's a big flash in
front of me. I thought it was infront of me. It obviously was
only about a metre in front ofme as we sit quite close to the
front of the aircraft. So itYes, I thought it was just a
lightning bolt going near me andrealised actually gone through
the aircraft.
Dave Rogers (43:04):
Well,
James Turner (43:05):
the Faraday cage worked and the electricity went
around the outside. And yeah,
Dave Rogers (43:09):
we carried on flying. And now you're here
telling a great story on apodcast? Is that is that not
normal? is the wrong word. Doyou know anybody else that's
happened to
James Turner (43:25):
just say but it does happen more with the
civilian airliners in the factthat they are probably more
robust for that sort of thing.
Because it can happen often. Andyou see photos lightning going
through the airlines. It hashappened a few times and Mercury
it does happen. The if youexpect if you know you've been
hit by lightning, we will alwaystry and divert to Atlanta to the
nearest airfield because we'renot sure what's going on with
(43:46):
it. I actually think it causesthat much of an issue to the
aircraft. Because it is the bigbox around electricity just
flies. But it goes round it butit can cause issue the
instruments. But I'm in an oldaircraft. So I've got very few
instruments.
Dave Rogers (44:04):
When you're actually have gas gauges and
jets. When you're actually information, how close are you
wing to wing.
James Turner (44:15):
So we move around to different formations, we can
do different shapes. So whenwe're flying all I'm actually
looking at his red ones that Ikeep referring to him. He's a
team leader. He's the one at thefront at the top of the diamond.
And we're all transmittedthrough so even if there's
someone inside me so I've got menumber two, and then what and if
(44:37):
you can see that effectively,I'm looking at the canopy of the
guy next to me at the boss'shead so I'm trying to dispose
off him. We're around about sixfoot to two metres away roughly.
But the weird bit is that I'mnot looking at the person who's
two metres away from me. I'mlooking at the person through
that and hoping the person nextto me doesn't wobble and hit. So
(44:59):
it's quite Step change adifferent way of doing rather
than looking at the personnearest you, you're actually
looking through the person nextto you and just trusting each
other.
Dave Rogers (45:07):
So I'm just looking at my bedroom door, now you're
around about the height of mybedroom door from the jet next
year,
James Turner (45:16):
roughly, yeah, it's kind of what you're looking
after the wingtips
Dave Rogers (45:19):
bed, in a commercial plane, what is
considered a near miss?
Ben Hall (45:25):
Yeah, that'll be uncomfortable. Well, vertically,
anything less than 1000 feet isnot good. And horizontally, I
mean, if you get within a fewmiles of somebody, you've done
something a bit wrong. So 60 is
Dave Rogers (45:48):
quite tight. And that that six feet is that is
that kind of calculated. So ifyou are all flying correctly, at
the correct speed, the correctaltitude, you can't feel the
planes either side of us, youkind of get any any wobble to
use a layman's term,
James Turner (46:07):
you can get the wobble, eventually, you're the
airflow being disrupted. Butactually, we always try and fly
out of the the airflow. So if weare flying directly behind
someone, we will always sit low,okay, know from the ground or
look like we're all in line, butwe're actually a little bit low,
we pretty much put the tailplane, in the in the jetty flux,
(46:28):
effectively, that's the sort ofheight we're looking at. So you
can, if you clean it up a littlebit, you can feel it vibrate,
others say we're descending downa little bit,
Ben Hall (46:35):
how's it feel, I'm really sort of, you know, those
really horrible, hot, humid,turbulent days, that must be a
real struggle, sort of justdoing your regular formations.
And
James Turner (46:46):
so that's one of the things that the brilliant UK
weather trains us foreffectually. So the turbulent
weather is the issue. So whetherthe, because we're down at 300
feet to the bottom of our loops,and things were quite close to
the trees, so actually, treesand hills and hangars create a
(47:06):
bit of turbulence. So wind offthem crashing causes issues. And
again, the hot days haveactually really got the
turbulent air rising, that makeseverything quite bumpy. So
that's harder when we arelooking at an aircraft that's
not next to us. But we're allbouncing around quite a lot. And
that's one of the things Inoticed the very first time I
sat in the back of the team, youwe bounced around more than you
(47:28):
see from the ground, becausewe're the stalls are 30 foot
wide aircraft moving up and downby a metre fit in the aircraft
feels quite a lot from theground, you don't actually see
it. So we do bounce around quitea lot. It's a lot easier. It's
nice and smooth. But we have tojust get used to that because he
can't choose what the issuesare.
Dave Rogers (47:47):
So part of your sort of being in the backseat
with that training, then is thatto get used to flying in such
close proximity just to the feelof it, or is that something that
you'd already done.
James Turner (48:01):
So the whole code flight, the moments, the red
arrows is a 20 day class, it'sgot two seats, one at the front,
then 130 behind it. And thedepending on the rules are
getting more strict for variousreasons. But when I first joined
the Air Force, it's actuallyrelatively easy to sit in the
backseat. And you could do thatif you are a fast jet pilot, but
(48:21):
we're not joining the team atall. So you can have it be
phoned up and come and sit inthe backseat. So it's a great
way of actually just seeing whatthe red arrows do. And that's
what I did when I first became afast jet pilot. Admittedly, it's
harder now because of rules andvarious reasons. But we can
still take people in thebackseat, mostly though, if they
are trying to join the team. Sonow we use it more of a, you're
(48:43):
interested join the team, Comefly with us for three times a
day, or for the selectionprocess, which is about a week
long interview. If you're in thebackseat every day about three
times a day, and just to seewhat the tempo is like and
actually enjoy it.
Dave Rogers (48:58):
Is there anyone that doesn't?
James Turner (49:01):
I think by the time they get to go away the the
interview, so every year we werelooking at bringing in three new
pilots, and it's a about 30 to50 people apply each year, we
whittle it down to about eightor nine, and then we take them
away. Sounds amazing. We nearlyalways go to Greece or to
Cyprus. We do it because we needthe weather. So you can
(49:23):
guarantee flying three times aday, five days a week. But we
also take them out so we canlive with them for a week and
actually see whether they likeit and be with it. Whether we
like them eventually. People doget to the end of it and go You
know what, this is not. Thisisn't for me. I think Molly by
the time people get to thatstage they've already blown with
the back seat of Australia. Wantto join?
Dave Rogers (49:42):
Of course they do.
Of course how to. Have you everbeen up in anything like that
bad?
Ben Hall (49:50):
I'm too tall. I'm six foot five. I can't show it in
anything remotely. I applied forthe Air Force when I was when I
was 1617. And I failed mymedical because my femur was too
long.
Dave Rogers (50:08):
Really?
Ben Hall (50:10):
Yeah. But I think it's just for the ejection seat. So
they stream everybody. But themedical is done for the fast
chair. Is that correct?
James Turner (50:18):
JT. As far as I'm aware, I think yes.
Ben Hall (50:21):
Yeah. So they hold everyone to the kind of the
highest standards from thebeginning. And yeah, I think I'd
lose my kneecaps if I objected.
So they just said, forgot.
James Turner (50:33):
Well, I hope I'm short.
Dave Rogers (50:37):
You are the perfect size for red arrow, which I'm
pretty sure most people wouldtake. Well, I hope that you are
nobody you ever knows has toreject ever. So we will just, we
will just leave that one whereit is? JT. Is there anything
else you would like to to add tothis? This has been such a
brilliant conversation. Thankyou.
James Turner (50:59):
I know from I've really enjoyed it. I, I've
really enjoyed my career in theaviation world, I think, in the
military is what has beenbrilliant. I think I've I
personally, would say the bestbit about being in the team. And
the Air Force, the whole is thecamaraderie, the fact that you
get to go away with like mindedpeople. Pretty much all my best
(51:19):
friends are the people I workwith, which is great. It's a
great way to live with withgreat friends and meet different
people and also do things aroundthe world. So I think it's
brilliant. I know it's not foreveryone, but I definitely
recommend you go for aviation,if it was interested.
Dave Rogers (51:34):
I'm so pleased that due to everything that's that's
gone on, you've got theopportunity to extend as well.
So you can do all of the thingsthat you really look forward to
when you when you kind of firstgot accepted. And I'll certainly
be keeping an eye out to seewhere you to end up because I
think you're gonna have someincredible adventures. And
hopefully, this, this podcastwill still be running in a
(51:57):
couple years time. Will you comeback on once you've had a few
more adventures and talk usthrough them?
James Turner (52:03):
I'd be delighted.
Yeah. be honoured to come backup again. As long as you don't
show like a difference. This iswhat I looked like three years
ago. This is what I look likenow with bags under the eyes and
less hair.
Dave Rogers (52:15):
Yeah, sure. You've just got to make sure that you
still fit in the same flyingsuit. Good man. Thanks, JT.
Cheers.
Ben Hall (52:26):
Thanks for listening to the pilot based podcast.
We'll be back next week withanother great guest from the
aviation industry. Don't forgetto check out our new career
platform at pilot base COMM Andall the socials at pilot base
HQ. If you enjoyed this podcastDon't forget to subscribe and
rice review
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Monster: BTK
'Monster: BTK', the newest installment in the 'Monster' franchise, reveals the true story of the Wichita, Kansas serial killer who murdered at least 10 people between 1974 and 1991. Known by the moniker, BTK – Bind Torture Kill, his notoriety was bolstered by the taunting letters he sent to police, and the chilling phone calls he made to media outlets. BTK's identity was finally revealed in 2005 to the shock of his family, his community, and the world. He was the serial killer next door. From Tenderfoot TV & iHeartPodcasts, this is 'Monster: BTK'.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.