Dr. Suzanne Kearns - A Pilot, Professor, Author and Speaker - The Pilot Base

Episode Transcript
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Ben Hall (00:04):
Hello, and welcome to the pilot based podcast. I'm Ben
and I've been a pilot for over adecade.

Dave Rogers (00:09):
And I'm Dave categorically not a pilot.

Ben Hall (00:12):
Every Monday we'll be chatting to both pilots and non
pilots with amazing aviationstories from all around the
world. You can find all episodesof the pilot based podcast for
free wherever you get yourpodcasts. If you like what
you're hearing, subscribe to ourchannel and leave us a review.

In Episode Six. We meet Dr. Susanne cook, a
qualified fixed wing andhelicopter pilot, who's now a
professor with tenure, using herexpertise to engage the next
generation of aviationprofessionals. We discuss
everything from education, tothe environmental impact of
aviation, to social mobility towhat the future holds for the

(00:49):
aviation industry. We even get afew surprise guests but like all
great podcasts, dogs arewelcome. So here it is Episode
Six, with Dr. Suzanne Kearns.
Dr. Kearns. Welcome to pilotbase. Thank you so much for
joining us. I'm really excitedabout having a conversation
having a chat and getting toknow you. Uh, first things

(01:10):
first, where in the world areyou?

Dr. Suzanne Kearns (01:13):
Right now?
I'm in Kitchener, Ontario,Canada. Yeah, it's quite snowy
here,

isn't it? I love the snow pilots don't like the
snow. In fact, that seems like agreat point to bring you back in
Ben, where you see snow on theground. But does that make you
think professionally?

Ben Hall (01:31):
stress? That just don't want?

Goodness me If only everybody dealt with snow as
well as the Canadians do?
Honestly. So we're both in theUK, Dr. Kearns. And as soon as
there is a suggestion of snow,the entire country go I nearly
said goes into meltdown. If itwent into meltdown, we'd be
fine. But everything stoppedtrains, planes, automobiles,
people just lock themselves intheir houses. It is complete

(01:59):
Carnage, I think you'll find ithilarious because it's

Ben Hall (02:04):
already set up for it.
Are we? I mean, we don't have mywife's American and her dad has
a snowplow attachment to thefront of his truck. Really?
Yeah, he'll just go and plow thelocal streets. Yeah, doesn't
quite happen in the UK. Well,

I will say there is the flip side, which is
amazing. So if you are a child,and there's a potential, there's
a big snowstorm coming at night,then you go to sleep, hoping
that school will be canceled fora snow day, the next day because
there's something magical aboutsnow days in school is like, you
know, all of a sudden, it'scanceled and you get to go
instead to bargaining andbuilding snowman and drinking

(02:38):
cocoa. It's like, it's amazing.
So that's that's the flip sideis there's always this sort of
small chance that maybesomething amazing is going to
happen and we can have the dayoff tomorrow.

How bad does the snow have to be before school
gets canceled, though?

pretty bad.
Usually it's icing. Soeverything's all iced over. Or a
really substantial amount ofsnow that's impairing
visibility.

Cuz what happens here is

Ben Hall (03:03):
two inches then snows a shot.

Yeah, but what happens then is we're like,
yeah, snow day, and there is notthere's not enough snow to build
a snowman because like you say,there's two inches on the floor.
And then the temperature getsslightly warmer. So by
lunchtime, it's just brown slushall over the edge just yet.
Yeah, pretty. Anyway, wedigress. Life's treating you
well, at the moment, I hope,

oh, well, as well as can be considered during
during a global pandemic. Ihaven't been in my office since
March. So the campus is prettymuch closed. So we're teaching
fully online at the moment. Andit presents a variety of
challenges because I also havefamily and children. And so for
the first three or four monthsof the pandemic here in Canada,

(03:47):
we were all locked downtogether. So it presents all
sorts of challenges in differentways.

Yes, and of course, the dogs as well, they need
walking. Have you had a few hadany family members, either of
the two legged or four leggedvariety? Just crash into your
lectures or your lessons oranything like that?

Yeah, yeah, probably probably everything I
am, what my husband and Icollaborate in different ways.
He's a teacher, but we buildelearning together. So we've
we've built courses together forIco and other agencies. So we
have our offices in oppositeside of the same room, which is
wonderful for collaborationunder normal circumstances, but
when he's doing a zoom meetingon one side of the room I'm

(04:32):
doing on the other side of theroom, it's not not so great. So
that's been a challenge. And forthe first month or so we only
had one webcam, so we would haveto keep passing it back and
forth because they're all sothat you can get a different
one. So like I got a meetingfrom 10 to 11 times yours. It's
a bit of a mess, but work setup.
Now I think.

I love that. So tell us about the academic
institution that you'recurrently working at.

Sure. So I'm a professor with tenure at the
University of Waterloo. TheUniversity of Waterloo is in
Ontario, Canada, and it'sconsidered one of the leading
universities in Canada. We havesignificant strengths. I think
from a reputation perspective,we're most known for areas
around engineering and computerscience. But in 2007, Waterloo

(05:23):
started its first aviationprogram. Do you want me to put
him in the back? Or do we topause?

I'm good, but if you're if you're uncomfortable
with it, normal for me, I likehaving a dog. guests.

Okay, so the University of Waterloo started
its aviation program in 2007.
And partnered with a localflight school called the
Waterloo Wellington FlightCenter. The Waterloo Wellington
Flight Center has its originsback, like sort of world war two
era when flight schools thatwere not for profit, sort of
like associations that peoplewho love aviation get together
and started to build theirschools. So it's one of the

(06:01):
biggest flight schools inCanada, but only interesting.
It's not for profit school aswell. So, so they're a partner
and they as students do theflight training there, and on
campus, I teach the academiccourses on campus. So I teach
international aviation HumanFactors safety, and
sustainability. And theygraduate with their a commercial

(06:23):
multi IFR, or a frozen airlinetransport pilot license when
it's done.

Ben Hall (06:31):
Do you obviously teach certain aspects? Do they teach
the whole CPL course? on campus?

We have sort of certified flight monitors.
I'm gonna put him in the backbecause he skipped it. Can we
pause for a second? Is thatokay? Are you there? They're
ridiculous.

Ben Hall (06:52):
It's fine.

Yeah. So um, interestingly, in Canada, as
opposed to the United States, somaybe it makes sense for me to
back up a little bit. So I, Istarted flying as a young
teenager. So at that time, youhad to be 16 to solo in
aircraft, and 17 to hold alicense. So I sold on my 16th
birthday. And I had my privateairplane and helicopter, my 17th

(07:15):
birthday. And then after highschool, I did a one year
helicopter pilot program up inNorthern Ontario, which had all
sorts of like really uniquelyCanadian types of flying
experiences, like part of theone year program as you get your
chainsaw operator's certificate.
So you can go in the bush andlike chop trees down and build
your own log pads forhelicopters to make approaches
to. Yeah, and we did likeinterior survival training where

(07:38):
you have to live in the bush fora week with no amenities, like
just your snowshoes. And theyteach you how to like make
snares for rabbits, and allsorts of interesting kinds of
things. But when I finishedthat, I started looking for
jobs. And it was really clear tome early on that that was going
to be a challenge because entrylevel helicopter pilot jobs in

(08:01):
Canada are mostly in northernbush camps. And those types of
facilities don't have likeseparate restrooms, or sleeping
quarters for men and women. Soit's really challenging for a
woman to get that first job, youknow, to start building
experience. And so I was lookingaround with being like, what am
I going to do with my life?

(08:23):
Like, I knew I loved aviationthat that was a given. But how
do you take a step forward? AndI already had a college diploma.
And I was thinking, you know,what's next. And at that time in
Canada, there were no universitylevel aviation programs in the
country that aviation has alwaysbeen in Canada, more of an
applied college leveldiscipline, we have aerospace

(08:44):
engineering, because we have alot of engineering building
structures and aircraft inuniversities, but the aviation
element, so flying and airportsand air traffic control and
everything operational didn'treally exist.

Ben Hall (08:57):
That's okay, now, is it?

Yeah,

Ben Hall (09:00):
we have a couple of universities now that quite new
in the last sort of five years.
Yeah. Yeah. It's still sort ofreally in the embryonic stage.

That's exactly what the how Canada was.
So that was, I think, 98. And Iwas sort of thinking, you know,
what do I do? And I was lookingat at the United States. And
what's interesting about thehistory of aviation in the
states is that because you hadto have a university degree to
be an officer in the military,and because so many pilots come

(09:31):
through the military, it createdthis huge ecosystem where there
are hundreds of universitiesthat have aviation degree
programs. So they have quite alarge group of that in that
category. So I went to Embryriddle Aeronautical University
in Daytona Beach, Florida. And Igot a lot more family visiting
me in Daytona Beach, Floridathan I did in North Bay in

(09:53):
Northern Ontario. Like randomcousins like I'm kind of is it
Okay. But that was a wonderfulexperience. Like, it's, it's an
amazing university because, youknow, you go to math class and
then you literally it's becauseit's connected to the airport,
you literally walk to anaircraft and go flying and then

(10:14):
you land and then you like walkto your residence and hang out
with your friends like, so it'ssuch a cohesive, like, really
cool learning environment. Butwhen I was there, there was only
about one woman for every 30 menacross the entire campus. Yeah,
so because it's very much anaviation school. So it was a

(10:34):
wonderful, super fun universityexperience. But at the end of
it, I, I took an internship withan airline was Continental
Airlines at a Houston and, and Iwas on the internship. And then
I also, back on campus, therewas really tragically, someone
who was killed in a trainingaccident. A really close friend

(10:56):
of mine was one of the otherinstructors that was at that
airport when it happened. And hehad gone to the aircraft to try
to save the student who was inthe crash. And he had ended up
like kicking the aircraft to tryto to get access and scuffing
his boots all up. And for him,he would tell me after for a
long period of time that hewhenever he would just be in his

(11:18):
home later and see the boots andsee the scuff marks on the boots
that I've just sort of have torelive that over and over. And I
was sort of living the life ofan airline pilot at Continental
Airlines, and so jump seatingeverywhere and traveling all the
time. And, and it really struckme that it didn't fulfill all

(11:39):
the excitement that I built upmy whole life. Like, you know,
like, this is the the pinnacleof what I wanted to do. And so
it led me to sort of reallyquestion, you know, what else is
possible? You know, besidesbeing an airline pilot,

Ben Hall (11:52):
I found that with airline training, it's really
weird, because when doing yourtraining, there's so much sort
of hands on flying and thelearning curve is steep. You
just think that's going tocontinue. But then when you get
into the airline world, it'scompletely different. Just a
different experience altogether,isn't it? It's it's not hands on

(12:14):
flying and speaking to peopleand doing loads of stuff. It's
far more sort of calm managementof the aircraft.

And a lot of it is is quiet time. Yeah, like
and I found I was reallysurprised that so much time is
just sitting, you know, like,like, you know, sitting in Yeah,
so it was a it was different.
Yeah, it is, like you said evenif helicopters as well,
helicopters, you're always onlike your you know, it's much
more like hands and feet heavy.

(12:43):
Like you're continually, youknow, working the controls, and
there's no, at least thehelicopters I flew, there was no
situation where you'd kind oflike sit back for an hour and
let it fly. And it doesn't worklike that. So it's it was really
different. And, and so I I endedup going back to Embry riddle
for my master's degree, which isin human factors and systems

(13:03):
engineering. So it's basicallysafety science, sort of like why
why do accidents happen? And howdo people contribute to that,
and then I came back to Canadaafterwards. And at that time,
because there were no degreeprograms in aviation, there was
like, nobody knew what to dowith me with a master's degree
in my pilot credentials. And soI spent like six months

(13:25):
floundering around, like kind ofhopeless, like, I'm gonna be
gonna be living in my parentsbasement playing video games
forever. And, and I wish I diddo that for a few months, but
that's separate. Then I sent acold resume into Western, which
while I was in the states thatstarted the very first

(13:45):
university level aviationprogram in Canada, and just
happenstance they, they broughtme in and they ended up hiring
me as a professor that was 24,which is my master's. And then I
did my PhD, while I was workingthere, subsequently full time.

Ben Hall (14:01):
Oh, amazing, incredible stuff.

Good. So what was the what was the topic of the
PhD that you did?

education?
So another kind of thing is justfunky for an academic is my PhD,
I actually did it online.
Because Western University whereI was teaching had a policy
where you couldn't work fulltime and study full time, you
could only work for as a maximumof 10 hours a week if you wanted
to be a PhD student. So I did myPhD through distance education.

(14:32):
It's credited accounts. But atthe time, it was very strange,
and not not something you cankind of hang your hat on, like,
you know, look at my fancyeducation
to kind of work for it.

Ben Hall (14:45):
And we've got something similar in the UK
called Open University that isreally really well respected
because it needs so much moresort of drive and motivation to,
you know, log on and do it infront of a computer rather than
During the class and beingsurrounded by sort of like
minded people?

Well, interestingly, the pandemic
showed us that elearning hastremendous potential, but it's a
very different medium forlearning and that when I was
studying my PhD, I'm like, Oh,please, can I go sit in a
classroom for three hours? Andkind of dozed off a little bit?
You know, like, could I pleasehave that experience because
it's very much on your on yourown, like, you have to, like you

(15:25):
said, you have to be motivated,you have to put the time in,
and, and put the work in. So, sothat's, you know, that in my
personal life around that time,well, I got my first job at
Western I also got engaged andgot married. And my husband and
I have an interesting story. He,he proposed to me nine days

(15:47):
after we met. And we weremarried a year after that, and
had my daughter nine monthsafter that. So it was like
thinking, rapid fire. But we'vebeen together for 16 years. So
it's,

Ben Hall (16:00):
and you said, Your husband's in aviation as well.

He's a teacher. So he's an educator. So
he and I are very similar mindedon that, that side of the house,
but he he's not an lover ofaviation, but he will watch me
the episodes with me.

Ben Hall (16:16):
That counts

both of the conversations like with,
obviously, your husband and yourfamily members, when you've gone
through all this, this effort tobecome fixed wing pilot, and
then a helicopter pilot, and youwill actually I'm not entirely
sure, this is what I want to do.
Because for somebody like me,who isn't qualified, I would
think, Well, you know, this is athis is a dream job. This is

(16:39):
something that so few people areactually capable of doing and
achieving. It was incrediblybrave and honest, have you with
yourself to realize that, youknow, maybe it wasn't what I
wanted? Was everyone around youfully accepting of that?

I think when they spoke to me, they were I
have I have a lot of reallywonderful family members
surrounding me. So I'm verylucky in that sense. But I'm
sure there were conversationsthat I wasn't in the room for,
like what in the world, hewanted to do one thing your
whole life. And now, now not somuch, but so it was it was
challenging, it was challengingfor me as well. And I relate so

(17:19):
much to my students,particularly those who just
graduated in the middle ofCOVID-19. Because when I
graduate, not only did I want tochange gears, but it was right
when 911 happened as well. So sothere's just this state of
chaos, not just in my life, butin all of the friends that I
had, who had also justgraduated, and we're looking for
work. So you sometimes peoplecall it as sort of a quarter

(17:42):
life crisis like that, you know,that 25 year, it's a tough
transition to go from, you know,what have I been preparing
myself for? And and thenultimately, the maturity to look
at that and say, a job is notjust a job, a job will impact
all of your life outside of thejob as well, you know, you're
scheduling and, and family andeverything along with it. And I

(18:04):
was sort of blind to those otherfactors when I was young,
because I just, and I still do,like, I love aviation. But I
didn't know that there were aworld of other opportunities. in
aviation, still where i think ithink that I needed that
experience to do what I do now,in order to be accepted as
credible.

Ben Hall (18:26):
I think there's a lot of people that probably
currently in a very similarsituation, but kind of forced
into it. So they've been a pilotfor quite a long time, but now
they're out of work. Yeah. Andmaybe there's some people
realizing, actually, I quitelike being home every night and
having to pick my days off andyou know, do normal, normal

(18:47):
things, because it is a it is alife, isn't it? It's not it's
not just a job.

Yes. And I think if we honestly look at
aviation, you have to acceptthat we have a long history of
really exploitative laborpractices, and for our aviators,
we expect the young people toinvest $100,000 in their
education, and then work as aflight instructor for $20,000 a
year in poverty. We expect themto do that, because we say they

(19:14):
love it, and what a privilegethat you get to have this
experience. But we stop askingthose really hard questions
around. Is this fulfilling that,like, is this causing mental
health issues? Because they'reliving in poverty? And you know,
like, is this causing strife intheir relationships? And so I
think that I've been working todevelop a new category of
research around n gap or thatthe next generation of aviation

(19:38):
professionals, which is tryingto bring together strands of
research that look atattracting, educating and
retaining people in aviationcareers. And it's interesting
how so many questions that fallunder that umbrella are so
impactful on the people and andif you talk to people, I think
anybody who's lived throughthat, you know, This, this

(20:00):
pandemic this year canappreciate that you question
your choices, you question yourvalue to an organization? And do
you question I think your lifewith your family as well that
that is, is this really the bestchoice for me? I think we're
going to be in pretty direstraits and the next year, and
not everybody agrees. But if youlook at the beginning of 2020,

(20:24):
we're facing severe shortages ofaviation professionals around
the world. And that was coupledwith this growing flight shaming
movement. So environmental focuson aviation and saying like,
Hey, this is a big polluter ofan industry. And that affects
young people, because they lookat it be like, Yeah, I don't
know. And that doesn't alignwith my values. And, and then

(20:45):
the pandemic hit. And of course,hundreds of 1000s of
professionals around the worldwere furloughed or laid off. And
you know, without pay and, youknow, struggle to figure out
what a new normal is. But Ithink that it's causing so many
of them who are mid or seniorprofessionals to leave aviation,
like there's, they're exploringwhat other options are anybody
who could take an earlyretirement will, and I'm seeing

(21:08):
young people continuallydiscouraged from being in the
aviation industry. And in ouruniversity, it's affecting the
pipeline. So because of trainingdemands, or training capacity
being reduced because of COVIDand distancing, that we have to
have our intakes for the nexttwo years. So we normally take
120 students, then the next twoyears, we're only able to take

(21:31):
in 60. So like, I keep thinking,like, how, how aware, are we of
all of those things comingtogether? We were in a shortage
beforehand, yes, we're pausednow, like now is a horrible time
for everybody. But if we look atan eventual recovery effort,
we're going to be in a recoveryeffort with the disrupted
pipeline at the beginning oftraining with a whole bunch of
mid career professionals havingleft and so many of our senior

(21:54):
pilots taken an early retirementlike, like, this is a big issue
that isn't, I think, getting alot of attention,

Ben Hall (22:01):
but you think it's gonna be a bit of a black hole
of pilots, but there's gonna beobviously a slight lag in that
pipeline, isn't there?

I think, I think that I think we need to
think really strategicallyaround that issue of, you know,
how do we attract, educate andretain people in aviation
careers and, and attractingthem, that's all, you know, the
outreach to young people andbringing them in education is is
huge, like the efficiency ofeducation, we still use

(22:27):
educational practices inaviation that are based on like
a 1930s understanding ofrepeated over and over and over
again, so you can do it. When ifyou look at artificial
intelligence and machinelearning, and you look at the
Learning Technologies, likeaugmented and virtual reality
and, and the more intelligentuse of simulation and early
pilot training. And then youlook on the on the other end of

(22:49):
retention, and you look atissues of things like, like
mental health and professionaldevelopment, like how do we make
these careers really fulfillingwonderful careers for people
where they feel valued, and thatthey're growing and
contributing? There's a lot ofwork in that. I think, I think
we

Ben Hall (23:06):
like it.

Do you feel like you're in a in a good place with
regards to that work? And yourknowledge of that? Or is it just
something you've got toconstantly keep on top of,
because it is an ever changinglandscape? And we certainly the
situation, we're in at themoment, the future so difficult
to predict, what kind ofchallenges does that pose for
you?

Yeah, well, so the life of a professor, his
students don't always understandthis, because they see teaching,
but teachings only 40% of myjob. 40% is research and 20% of
service services, perhaps thingslike this, but also, you know,
serving on committees and, youknow, working with international

(23:50):
agencies and organizations. Butthe research part is something
students don't always see. So myresearch, and like I wrote,
written six books, but the firstwas a textbook, which is out of
print now. The next iselearning, and aviation, which
is sort of like an academicunderstanding of how to

(24:11):
effectively use e learning inaviation. And the next was a
competency based education inaviation. And that's about the
philosophy that we've alwaysused. Ours is a metric for
experience and licensing ofpilots. So you need a certain
number of hours to get yourlicense and a certain number of
hours to stay current. But westopped to ask, or we often

(24:32):
serve maybe failed to ask, Isthere anything really powerful
about those hours? Or is itreally what happens during those
hours that matters? Not thehours themselves? Because if you
use ours as a metric forlicensing and for a person
gaining in their education, youcan never expedite it, and you
can never improve it becausethere's no incentive. So if, if

(24:56):
I went to a flight support,

Ben Hall (24:57):
biggest frustrations in aviation, yes. You can just
sit in a seat and you can berubbish. And you can be a
particularly good pilot, you canbe a horrible person. But just
because you sit in that seat forsome period of time, you know,
you're a higher rank than me or,you know, further on in your
career, whereas

What are your thoughts on the the hours is a
metric then to sort of fill thatblack hole. So as you said,
You've got a lot of mid leveland senior level pilots who may
be looking for additionalcareers, if all of a sudden the
industry does pick back up in2021 2223. And we have got this
black hole of pilots. But we dohave that that group of very

(25:37):
talented individuals who havebeen safe pilots, they've been
reliable pilots, but haven'tdone it for a little while, but
now aren't qualified to gostraight back into the seats
because they haven't stayedrelevant. Do you think we might
be in a situation where theindustry has to change and we
have to stop looking at hours asa metric because we've got 10s,

(25:57):
hundreds 1000s of people who cando jobs, but it's an archaic
sort of red tape, that's, that'sstopping the industry from
getting back on its feet.

Exactly. So, so the industry had made some
pretty good progress aroundcompetency based education
before the pandemic hit. And Ithink that it will be gaining in
sort of acceptance andrecognition, once we move
through the other side. Butultimately, the way I explain it
to people is everybody's been ina classroom, right? And, and
everybody can sort of understandthat some of the hours, you're

(26:31):
sitting in that classroom,you're completely somewhere
else, like you're daydreaming,and you're paying attention, or
you're on your phone, you know,not me or you but like other
than me. But there are sometimes where, in a very short
amount of time, somebody can saysomething or explain something
and, and that, like 15 minutescan change everything about the

(26:53):
way you think about an issue.
So, so time isn't what'simportant, right? It's what
happens during that time thatmatters. And so competency based
training is all about definingthe knowledge, the skill in the
attitude at certain levels. Andusing those as a reference for
when training is complete. So itdoesn't matter. If you have the
10 hours, if you're able todemonstrate competency on this

(27:15):
particular task or maneuver,then you can move to the next
step. And it really allows asort of customization and
individualized approach totraining, which on a fringe side
makes it go a lot faster. Ingeneral, there's a lot of
opportunity for it to beexpedited, but also to take
advantage of what's known abouthow adults learn and how to

(27:35):
teach them in the most effectiveway and, and use technologies
when it makes sense when it'seffective and, and saves money
and time.

Ben Hall (27:46):
We're really interested to hear your thoughts
about how that translates intoimprovement, because obviously,
pilot base is mainly arecruitment platform. And we
have a lot of our users who havethat exact issue that flying
hours is basically one of themain initial filters. So say a

(28:07):
company requires 3000 hours toapply for that job. What saying
there's somebody who's got 2500hours, but amazing, relevant
experience is not going to be asgood as candidate as somebody
who, you know, maybe is a secondofficer sits on the jump seat
doesn't touch the controls under20,000 feet.

Yeah. Well, I think that's, as you said,
it's one of the big criticismsof the industry that everybody
knows that two pilots with theexact same number of hours don't
have the exact same number ofskills, right, it's going to be
far more dependent and what theydid during that time. And if you
look to particularly the theAsia Pacific region, where they
had significantly faster growthin aviation than we had in North

(28:49):
America, and because of that,we're really incentivized to
innovate how they train. So theydeveloped a series of cadet
programs, where they would hirepeople off the street, and then
the airline would train them for18 months. And then at the end
of the 18 months, they would begenerally a second officer First
Officer flying actively on theline. And they owe basically a

(29:10):
term of service back to theairline, sort of payback
training costs. So so there'salready been a proof of concepts
in the idea that you can takereally low time pilots. And
instead of what we've donehistorically, which is we teach
them during training, how to flysmall planes, and we expect them
somewhere down the road to learnhow to fly the bigger aircraft
or to work at an airline. But ifwe train them from the beginning

(29:32):
to be an airline pilot in thestandard operating procedures,
and the two crew environment andthe more advanced equipment and
heavy integration of simulation,and scenario based instruction,
so you really, you know,engaging every training session
in a problem like why would webe doing this trying to teach
you to think like a pilotinstead of just memorize book

(29:53):
content, that it's already shownthat it works. It's just a
matter of those systems havekind of been separated. So we
have the cadet programs usingthe multi crew pilot license
over here. And then we have thetraditional training over here.
And I think both sides kind oflook at the other and say, hey,
there's advantages anddisadvantages in that other
group that I wish I could, Iwish I could have the advantages

(30:15):
and and not the disadvantages ofthe category that I'm in.
Because those traditionalpilots, they still, you know,
they would still need, like yousaid several 1000 hours to get
an interview. And when they'relooking across at those who are
in the cadet program, I thinkunderstandably, would be
frustrated to say, why wouldthat young person with 250 hours
be flying and safe andcompletely acceptable and

(30:37):
integrated into operations, butmyself with 2000 hours? can't
even get an interview? Like, itdoesn't seem fair?

Ben Hall (30:45):
Yeah, absolutely. So we've got a multi crew pilot
license over here as well. I'vehad a lot of colleagues who have
recently made redundant. And nowthat leaves them in a very
sticky situation, because it, itworks if you're sponsored by an
airline, as you just asked, andyou kind of run through the
whole system. But if that kindof gets chopped, at some point,

(31:06):
that license is pretty useless.

Yes, it's linked to the airline
specifically, like you said, so.
So if you are with airline a,and if that airline goes out of
business, or they let you go forwhatever reason, you can't take
like you could have traditionallike, that's one of the
disadvantages of the multiplecredit license isn't. It's not
like the normal licensingstructure where then you can
take your licenses and go toanother company and say, here's
my experience, can I work foryou, the multi crew pilot

(31:30):
license is like, it's likeyou're married to that one
company. So yeah, you'restarting, you're gonna do a lot
of backtracking.

Ben Hall (31:38):
I think probably, in the training company's wildest
dreams, this pendant would nothave happened. And therefore
they probably didn't evenconsider it as an option. But
those people now in thatsituation I've been charged. I
know, there's certain trainingschools that are charging sort
of 10s of 1000s of pounds,converted back to a, you know,

(31:59):
CPL or equivalent.

Yeah, I think it's, it's an interesting
time to be in the training worldto sort of meet that demands.
Like I know, even some of thoselarge companies that put up
projections to say sort of whatI've said already, that we're
looking at a pretty massiveshortage by this time next year.
But that's so hard for people tounderstand, because it's so hard

(32:23):
to look past the pain you'reexperiencing today to see what
what might be down the road, orto see past your own experiences
to see like from a globalpicture, that perhaps one
person's path might bedifferent, but on average,
that's sort of where we'reheaded. Yeah, I

Ben Hall (32:39):
suspect there might be a bit of cheekiness from the
airlines in the short term.
Drivers absolutely 1000s ofpilots out of jobs, we can lower
our terms and conditions, youknow, and sweep up the people
who are really in need. Butyeah, then that gap comes a
little bit later, isn't it? Somaybe if people can bide their

(33:00):
time and not, you know, crumpleup, the first officer might be
in decent situation?

Yeah, I'm not an expert in sort of the
negotiation process, or, youknow, the, that's probably far
more aligned with what you bothdo. But But I would say that you
hear time and time again, thisidea of, you know, exploitation
of pilots and and the reality isthat pilots are human. Like,
it's interesting, some of theresearch into mental health of

(33:29):
pilots, because we're, theaverage person would say, like,
on a scale of, do I sometimesfeel stressed? Or do I sometimes
feel anxious, the average personwill be in the middle, like,
everybody, yeah, we're human, wesometimes have feelings. But if
you give that survey to thepilot population, they all score
it as zero, like, I have nofeelings, I have no anxiety, I

(33:49):
have no issues. And of course,that's not true. But there's
something that's sort of builtinto how we make pilots where we
teach them to suppress or denythe fact that they have
feelings, and and then it comesout and really, you know,
horrible ways because perhapsthey're not getting treatment or
support or not feeling like theycan discuss some of those things

(34:10):
with their peers. But I thinkthat this pandemic has been
really, really hard on aviation,but specifically on all those
aviators and and, and I do hopethat people who maybe
historically wouldn't be open totalking about their feelings
that they might consideracknowledging that this has been
a really tragic experience for alot of people that affects, you

(34:31):
know, not just their work, buttheir families and everything
that goes along with that.

Is that something that you work on with your
students then the fact that ifthey are having issues, it is
okay to talk about them?

Yeah, well, I teach safety class each year
and one of the things I do inthe classes I give student
groups of problem. So sometimes,you know, there's wide ranging
problems, but in the class thatgot disrupted by the pandemic in
the spring, one of the studentgroups that ended up actually
winning the design challenge.
Their idea was to make an appthat would allow within a

(35:05):
company, it would allow for peermentorship between pilots to
support each other where theycould feel comfortable sort of
sharing how they're feelingfrom, from an emotional
perspective and supporting eachother. They they're actually I
think, going to be pitching thatin a design competition, I just
got an email from. So it's, it'stricky, because the solutions

(35:27):
kind of have to be organic.
Like, I feel like the way we arein aviation, if somebody from
the outside comes in, and theysay, like, Hey, you guys have
these problems? You should youshould adopt my solutions. I
think we're very quick to belike, No, you don't know
aviation, like, like, that's nothow we do things here. But
sometimes I think it's sort ofnatural and, and the sort of

(35:49):
things sort of bubble up ontheir own, perhaps with the

Ben Hall (35:53):
taboo subjects as well, just because of the your
medical category. So you haveto, obviously can have your past
medical every year and make sureyou're fit and healthy. So there
is a bit of a fine line isn'tthere? And it's because it's
it's a bit of a gray area,right? It's a bit subjective. I
think a lot of people suppressbecause of that as well. They

(36:15):
don't want to outwardly gettowards the wrong side of that
line and potentially lose theirmedical themselves in more
problems.

What about social mobility and the aviation
industry then because now youmentioned earlier in this
conversation, expecting peopleto pay $100,000 to them in 20,
as an instructor, and I've hadloads of chats to you, Ben about
people who've either taken onextra jobs to pay for flight
school and those extra jobs.
It's not like working in a pubor a restaurant, it's a job

(36:46):
where a salary could you know,be funding a mortgage, or
parents who don't have a lot ofmoney re mortgaging their homes
so their children can can learnto fly. And even though those
are very selfless actions offamily members to help out, that
still does mean that only asmall percentage of the world's
population and even the sort offirst world population are going

(37:10):
to be in a situation where theycan become a pilot. Now, me
being the little social justicewarrior that I am. And we always
tell people, you know, when yougrow up, you can be what you
want to be. And in a lot ofinstances, that is true. And
there are some incrediblesuccess stories across loads of
industries. But aviation seemslike one of those where there's

(37:34):
not really an open door forsomebody of humble beginnings or
a working class background. Andhow can we make that better?

Yeah, well, that that's something I am
aligned with you onsignificantly, I think part of
it is because I teach aviationstudents all the time. So I see
them and they're such amazing,passionate young people. They're
bright, and they're dedicated.
But I also see this thesuffering and the difficulties
where they have to keep severalother jobs and sort of their

(38:07):
earning just to pay for the nextflight. And it's this rotation
where sometimes even sleeping intheir cars late, I had one
student who was working inToronto, it was about an hour
and a half drive. And he wasdoing sort of a night shift. And
then he was commuting backbecause it was a better paying
position and then trying tofunction in a classroom,
horrible situations that nobodywould be able to do. And if you

(38:31):
look at our industry, we're onlyabout 6% women. And we're, I
think far less visibleminorities. So there's a huge
amount of work that needs to bedone to to, you know, progress,
diversity and inclusion inaviation. And, and so I can tell
you a little bit of what I'vewhat I've been doing and with

(38:51):
some amazing colleagues fromaround the world, but if we back
it up, so I Keio, which is theInternational Civil Aviation
Organization. So they're abranch of the United Nations
that create standards for forthe aviation industry. So they
started back in 2009, the endgap program, which is the next
generation of aviationprofessionals, and so there,

(39:12):
I've been a part of that groupfor many years, and basically a
volunteer group where they gettogether every now and then and
maybe once a year and discuss,like how do we how do we make
this better? And so, maybe alittle over a year ago, I
thought, well, I really see thisbecause I'm an academic as an
academic problem, right? Like,how can we, how can we answer
these problems? Because we'renot the first industry to ask

(39:34):
how do we do this better? Likeif you look at the medical
field, there was a time where itwas very similar like it was it
was very white male, and it wasabout it, and very, very
expensive. But then we saw a lotof support financially as well.
So so we're not the first totackle the issue. So how can we
learn lessons that exist and andstart applying them to aviation

(39:54):
so I put out I made a website Ihad solicited input from people
from around the world aroundthis issue, like how do you
attract, educate and retainpeople in aviation, and I ended
up getting about 50contributors, so professionals,
academics, who contributed casestudies or stories, but also

(40:16):
academic chapters, around thesethemes. And and that I compiled
into a book, which is calledengaging the next generation of
aviation professionals, or IIand gap and gap. And that came
out on March 15, I think of2020, which was like the most
ironic timing for nobody wasthinking that was an issue. So

(40:39):
I, honestly for about a weekafter it came out, I was sort of
like, Am I gonna keep my headdown on that? Or like, I don't
want to be promoting that.

Ben Hall (40:52):
Lady publicising.

But I had, what was really cool about it is
it kind of created this, thissmall community of the people
who had contributed to the book,who one gentleman in particular,
an assignment with from the UK,he had reached out to me and he
said, No, this isn't, this isstill a real big issue. Like
just because the world hasstopped spinning. It doesn't
mean that's the time where we westop asking these important

(41:16):
questions. And he was the onewho really kind of gave me a
nudge to say, if anything, apandemic is a pause, where we
have an excess and capacity wehave time, like this is the time
we should start challenging thestatus quo and really thinking
about how to, to move thisinitiative forward. So in
partnership with him, we'vecreated an gaps or Ian gap, but

(41:41):
basically, where he has an gapin the UK, and I'm in Canada,
and another gentleman in theStates has an gap in the USA.
And basically, we're looking ata variety of things in Canada,
it's mostly from a researchperspective, because that's my
strength. In the UK, they'rebuilding some really amazing
partnerships and and reallylooking at like, how do you

(42:02):
create sort of like a ladderapproach, like a sector ladder?
So if I'm a young person, and Iwant to be a pilot, so I'm
starting here, and I want to behere? What are the educational
pathways I can take? What sortof financial support can I make?
And can we really sync up theairlines and the training
institutions so that it's verycooperative, which both allows
the schools to produce pilotswho are more ready for work, and

(42:25):
also to ensure that there areplacement so that they can
actually get a job when they'redone. But there's a lot of
things bubbling around likereally, things that almost make
you emotional, where they're,like, fully funded positions for
people in different categories.
And if you look to Asia, wherethey have the cadet programs
that are very popular and verycommon, and the airline is

(42:47):
funding training, in return fora term of service, there are
models out there. And that's, ofcourse, how the military has
always functioned. here as well.
So so it's possible, right, butbut I think, before the pandemic
in the history of aviation,airlines have benefited, I
think, historically, from nothaving to invest in the training

(43:11):
of people who are lower down thechain, right, like they there
was, it's kind of an amazingjob, like, it's cool and
exciting. And people really wantto be involved in it. So. So I
think there's a benefit wherethey could kind of sit back a
little bit. And, you know, justsort through all the resumes of
all these fully qualified peoplewho have paid for their
education, and found their pathon their own. But I think if

(43:32):
we're going to seek a moresustainable future, that's more
considerate of supporting theseyoung people and people who come
from different backgrounds, thenI think we really need to
rethink how to integrate more sothat the airlines are integrated
into the education and that'sintegrated into recruitment and
sort of intake as well. BecauseI think it's silly in a lot of

(43:54):
ways to ask a 16 or 17 year oldto navigate this entire system.
When many of us who have been inthis system our whole careers
would have a lot of difficultyexplaining exactly how to do
that.

Yeah, and I suppose particularly when you're relying
on on people to self fund thesethings, are people going to
become more reluctant to do thatnow but you know, we're getting
to the phase where that's that'sjust not gonna work in
generations to come. So I'll usemy generation for example, I'm
halfway through my 30s I doreasonably well in my career,

(44:29):
but by the time my parents weremy age, they done an awful lot
better now. In a few generationstime. I don't think even the
wealthy people are going to beable to find for six figures
required to put their their sonor daughter through flight
school so it almost feels asthough forget the forget the

(44:50):
social justice side of things.
The industry is going to need tofind a way to get ahead of the
game.

What what I've been building at the
university It is a researchcluster. So I've mentioned like
having a variety of differentdisciplines come together so
that we can get new ideas to theexisting problems in aviation.
And what would I hope for so mydream of where I hope we would
be a year from now is to createa center. So like a research

(45:18):
institute that focuses onsustainable aviation. Because if
you look at sustainability,sustainability has the three
equal pillars of importance. Soit's environmental, economic,
but also social. I thinkeconomic importance is kind of
driven aviation for forever. Butif you look, yeah,

(45:41):
understandably, like thebusiness, they have to make
money to function. Right. Sothat's important, but but I
think the environmental aspecthas really been gaining a lot of
focus recently. And I noticedthis for the first time a few
years ago, when I was teachingmy first year students, and they
would come to my office hours,and they'd say, hey, the other
students, like in otherprograms, they give me a hard

(46:04):
time because they're saying,like, why would you be part of
an industry? That's such apolluter? Like, doesn't that
make you a bad person. And thatis, like, I, in my entire
educational experience, I neverhad one person say that when I
was a young person going toschool. But it really, I think,
demonstrates the shiftingperspective of youth. And, and

(46:24):
so if you go back to your pointabout the cost of training,
electric aircraft and trainingare potentially, like
significantly cheaper thantraditionally powered aircraft,
so so instead of $100 an hour,they might only be $20 an hour,
if they can be demonstrated assafe and, and approved by the
regulator. And you know, it'slike all of those dominoes fall.

(46:47):
But there's tremendouspotential. So if you talk about
from a sustainabilityperspective, where you can both
improve the economics, as wellas having environmental impact,
but that's a sweet spot,potentially. And then if you
look at the social pillar, Ithink that that that's where the
end gaps that I've talked about.
So this, like, reallyunderstanding how do we support
the people, I feel like that hasreceived even less attention

(47:09):
than the economic or theenvironmental pillars, I feel
like we just kind of take it forgranted, that there's going to
be enough people in ourindustry, they're going to be
passionate, they're going tosacrifice themselves, because
they're so lucky and privilegedto have this opportunity that we
expect them to pay for it. Andyou know, with their own emotion
and hardship in different ways.

(47:30):
And, and so I think, under thatpillar, it's not just about, you
know, the mental health anddiversity we've talked about.
But it's also about, like, a keyaspect of that is education.
And, and so that's where some ofmy research comes in with
elearning, and competency basededucation, that if we could use
modern learning scienceapproaches to innovate how we

(47:50):
teach people, the results alsoimprove sustainability across
the board. If we're replacinghours in the air with hours in a
simulator, and we're showingthat it's effective, it's super
customized to that individual'sparticular needs, as well as
whatever operation they need todo. And we're training them, you
know, very scenario based fromthe beginning, it's taking hours

(48:11):
of emissions flying out of theair, putting it in a simulator,
and it also allows you to fly inany weather condition. So so it
affects it's better for thepeople, it's less expensive, and
it reduces the environmentalimpacts as well. So there's so
much potential in so manydifferent ways. But it has to be
a focus of what we pay attentionto.

This, the sustainability thing is massive,
you know, it's not somethingthat we've really spoken about
on this podcast yet, Ben, andI'm sure as as the podcast
evolves, it's something thatwe'll talk about more and more,
and I really hope we get todedicate a lot of time to it.
But I would be really interestedin seeing the the numbers that
the pollution based metrics for2020 compared with 1918 1716, is

(49:01):
that suddenly you've been ableto see, Suzanna, are they not
really available yet?

I can't give you the specifics for
comparisons, but I can tell youthat. So there there is a lot of
really wonderful work going intoenvironmental sustainability and
aviation. So the reason why Ismiled, and you said that is
because one of the really cooland amazing goals that I co has
set for the industry has made itI think, in 2016, so several

(49:27):
years back was carbon neutralgrowth from 20 onwards. So
basically, what they said wasthat the level of emissions
produced by internationalaviation in 2020 would be the
baseline and any growth beyondthat could never exceed the
amount of emissions in 2020. Andthat would be accomplished
through you know, more directflight plans. So more air

(49:47):
traffic management throughbetter aircraft equipment and
engines, through electricaviation through sustainable
fuels and etc, etc. as well ascarbon offsets which is a really
big part of that

as well. Next question.

But the the point was, the reason why I
smiled is because, of course,add IQ, I'm sure they were
looking at the carbon productionin 2020. And going, Oh, that's
not a good baseline for usbecause we didn't fly in 2020.
So about halfway through theyear, they said that they're
going to use the 2019 levels. Socarbon neutral growth from cng

(50:23):
was 2019, though, which is notdoesn't quite roll off the
tongue as well. But it's so thatthat plus quercia cracy is a
carbon offsetting recoveryscheme for international
aviation. So it's how the wholeworld is going to basically
create like a market for carbontrading to to offset some of the

(50:43):
growth. So just

give me a bit of an insight into how important that
offset is, because there was abig thing in the news over here
about Lewis Hamilton, the theFormula One driver, and how
people were really giving him ahard time because obviously, the
car that he drives, verypolluting the the fact that him
and a team travel across theworld, but he is supposedly

(51:09):
carbon neutral because of theamount of time and effort and
money he puts into offsettinghis carbon footprint. So
essentially, does that cleanseall of your sins? Or is it
still? Is it still an issue?
Should we still be looking atreducing emissions in the first
place, as opposed to justoffsetting them with all of that
good work,

like, I can tell you what I can suggest,
which is that it's everything.
So it's not just offsets. It'salso improving the efficiency of
operations across the scalethrough through some of those
other aspects I mentioned. So Ican't call it a basket of
measures so that we can'taccomplish it with just offsets.
But that's part of what, whatwe'll need because
realistically, technology mightnot advance quick enough to

(51:53):
support and aircraft have reallylong life cycles as well. So and
they're quite expensive forairlines to purchase. So offsets
allow them to still functionwhile they have some of that
older equipment, so they canreplace it. But, but I think
it's really important tohighlight that aviation does a
lot of really good things in theworld to like, and this is one
thing I try to reinforce tostudents, I said that you can't,

(52:16):
you can't and shouldn't feelembarrassed that you love
aviation, right? Like, becausebecause aviation promotes
millions of jobs if ittransports more than a third of
the world's cargo by value. Somost high value cargo goes by
air, it provides, like essentialservices to remote regions and
sustainable tourism to parts ofthe world that otherwise

(52:37):
wouldn't, wouldn't have, youknow, the resources to to be
sustained. And, you know, beforethe pandemic, I often would say
to them, if there's sort of likedowns, like I love aviation, but
people give me a hard time thatit's a polluter, and I said,
imagine what would happen. Ifaviation was grounded for a
week, like imagine, just stopand think about, you know,

(52:57):
produce wouldn't get like there,the grocery stores would start
to become empty, like, peoplewouldn't be able to see friends
and family and the socialimpacts that would have. And
then so ironically, of course,COVID-19 has forced us to live
and experience some of what thatactually means. With the
exception, though, that cargo isstill going really strong
through all the COVID. So, so wedidn't feel the pain of our

(53:19):
cargo line being disrupted thesame way as passengers, but, but
I do feel like, it's easier forpeople to understand how
important aviation is and what amechanism for good it can be.
Aviation contributes about 2% ofglobal emissions, about 1.3% of
global emissions associated withinternational travel and about

(53:42):
point seven for domesticoperations. And I think over 80%
of aviation, are flights thatare longer than 1500 kilometers
for which there really isn't aviable alternative mode of
transportation, a timelytransportation. So there's a lot
of a lot to be said about. Doesit make sense to have 45 minute

(54:03):
flights, when we could do thatby train or another more
sustainable form oftransportation? Like, yeah,
like, okay, but that's, that's avery viable, you know,
statement. And maybe that'swhere we'll go in the future as
well is start to really thinkabout. Of course, airlines
probably wouldn't like that asmuch. But really segregating
aviation to those longer tripswhere it really poses tremendous

(54:26):
advantages and allows for growthand fulfilling jobs and
everything that goes along withthat.

It's no secret that aviation is in a little bit of a
trough at the moment, but itcertainly isn't the only
industry. That is, I mean, ifyou'd have asked me years ago,
I'd have looked at a job as apilot or you know, anywhere from
from cabin crew to engineeranything in aviation, and I'd

(54:54):
have said it was as viable a jobas as a hairdresser or a
plumber, you know, we're alwaysgoing to Need plumbers are
always going to needhairdressers, we're always going
to need people in aviation. Thatisn't the case. At the moment,
do you think that we will be ineither the not too distant
future or a little bit furtherdown the line in the situation

(55:14):
where those jobs in aviation areonce again, as viable as they
have been?

I think that aviation jobs are going to be in
demand in the future in a bigway. But I think that that will
happen in conjunction with thiscontinual evolution of
technology. And if you look toolder aircraft, there were five
pilots, there's a captain andthe first officer, the engineer
and the navigator, and the radiooperator. And now we have to

(55:44):
write so we have a track recordwhere technology improves and
allows for fewer people to dothe job that that used to take
to. So I think understandingthat's our history, may perhaps
it is a possibility that wewould move to single pilot
operations. But that would loopme back to the beginning of our
conversation, which is that ifyou talk to pilots, and then you

(56:06):
could probably relate to this aswell. And if you ask them if
you're on a long flight byyourself, right, like if you
didn't have a co pilot with you,and because technology is
playing that role, how wouldthat impact your feelings about
that job?

Ben Hall (56:22):
Yeah, so so what you're talking about mental
health earlier, would really hithome there, I think, because,
you know, you get a really goodbonding. I think, if I was
sitting over Central Africa atfour o'clock in the morning,
staring pitch darkness bymyself, yeah, that would be a
real struggle, and really not avery fun day at work.

And I think that's the whole point is, I
think, I just hope that as ifanything, this pandemic allows
us an opportunity to pause andreflect on things that we took
for granted as the status quobeforehand. And and the reality
is, we have to think more aboutthe people like Like you said,
like if if, you know, if a pilotis going to feel like so much of

(57:04):
their quality of life in aprofession that has been
degraded, maybe through a loan,that needs to be an important
conversation, that that's mixedinto whether or not technology
is integrated to replace some ofthat role. Like I really do hope
as we move forward, we tend tothink more about sustainability
that includes those threepillars and not just the
economic to the environmental,as well as the people as well.

(57:27):
And, and I think that only byinnovating those three things
collectively, can we achieve amore sustainable future?

Okay, Suzanne Kearns, thank you very much for
joining us on pirate base. Thishas been an absolute pleasure.
Thank you.

Ben Hall (57:44):
Thanks for listening to the pilot based podcast.
We'll be back next week withanother great guest from the
aviation industry. Don't forgetto check out our new career
platform at pilot base COMM Andall the socials at pilot base
HQ. If you enjoyed this podcastDon't forget to subscribe and
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dr. Suzanne Kearns - A Pilot, Professor, Author and Speaker