February 14, 2021 • 48 mins
In Episode Five, we welcome our first non pilot guest!
Cast your mind back to the end of 2018 when an alleged drone sighting sent Gatwick Airport into complete meltdown; the airport was closed, 1000 flights were either cancelled or redirected, 140,000 passengers had their travel plans put into complete disarray. Arrests were made, conspiracy theories surfaced, it cost millions of pounds but ultimately, nobody was ever charged. Nobody was ever blamed, and nobody ever really got to the bottom of it.
Fast forward to 2020 when renowned author and journalist Samira Shackle - this week's podcast guest - took a deep dive. She did the long read for The Guardian, she spent months doing research, she talked to pretty much everyone she could speak to and produced a fabulous piece of journalism. If you've not read it, I recommend you do! On the day it was released, it got so many reads on the Guardian website that the office actually contacted Samira to tell her and I'm told on good authority that very rarely happens. She's a brilliant guest with lots going on and it's a fascinating conversation.
If you want to read her article, you can find it here: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/dec/01/the-mystery-of-the-gatwick-drone
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben Hall (00:06):
Hello, and welcome to the pilot base podcast. I'm Ben
and I've been a pilot for over adecade,
Dave Rogers (00:11):
and I'm categoric not.
Ben Hall (00:14):
Every Monday we'll be chatting to both pilots and non
pilots with amazing aviationstories from all around the
world. You can find all episodesof the pilot based podcast for
free wherever you get yourpodcasts. If you like what
you're hearing, subscribe to ourchannel and leave us a review.
Dave Rogers (00:28):
In Episode Five. We welcome our first non pilot
guests now cast your mind backto the end of 2018 when an
alleged drone sighting saidGatwick Airport into complete
meltdown, the airport was closed1000 flights were either
cancelled or redirected. 140,000passengers had their travel
(00:49):
plans put into completedisarray. arrests were made
conspiracy theory surfaced itcost millions of pounds but
ultimately, nobody was evercharged. Nobody was ever blamed,
and nobody ever really got tothe bottom of it. Fast forward
to 2020 when renowned author andjournalist Samira shackle
(01:11):
today's podcast guests, took adeep dive. She did the long read
for The Guardian. She spentmonths doing research she talked
to pretty much everyone shecould speak to and produced a
fabulous piece of journalism. Ifyou've not read it, I recommend
you do on the day it wasreleased. It got so many reads
on the Guardian website that theoffice actually contacted
(01:33):
Sameera to tell her and I'm toldon good authority that very
rarely happens. She's abrilliant guest with lots going
on and it's a fascinatingconversation. So Samira shackle
is she is Samir shackell.
Welcome to the pilot base. Howare you?
Samira Shackle (01:54):
I'm good. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Dave Rogers (01:56):
I'm so pleased you're here. Ben, how are you?
Ben Hall (02:00):
I'm doing very well.
Thanks, Dave. How are you doing?
Dave Rogers (02:02):
Yeah, yeah, I'm alright. I'm really excited to
have this chat. Firstly, Samira.
You're our first non pilot gueston the pilot bass podcast. So
that's, that's an excitingthing. But also, I just can't
wait to get into this subjectmatter. And congratulations on
the success of the article. Bythe way, it seems like it's
gone. berserk.
Samira Shackle (02:23):
Yeah, thanks. It really has seems like lots of
people on the internet were asobsessed with the Gatwick drone
as I was, which was nice.
Dave Rogers (02:32):
But because you've done absolutely loads for The
Guardian over the years. I mean,you've got an incredibly diverse
career that we'll we'll dig intoas the podcast progresses. But
why do you think this article inparticular really caught
people's imaginations?
Samira Shackle (02:47):
It's a good question. Actually. I think it's
partly that it was such a weirdstory. And I think it's one of
those things that people justeveryone sort of remembers it
happening fairly recent coupleof years ago. And it's one of
those things that when youmention it, people are like, Oh,
yeah, I remember that whatactually happened. And then the
fact that there was never anyreal resolution to this enormous
(03:08):
news event, I think, is enoughto really get people interested.
And then people also love a bitof fast when it comes to news
story.
Dave Rogers (03:21):
Did you go into it thinking, I'm actually going to
get to the bottom of this andfind out exactly who did it and
exactly when it happened andexactly where they were? Or did
you always think it might be alittle bit open ended,
Samira Shackle (03:33):
I thought it might be a bit open ended, I've
wanted to do something about itfor ages and my editor at The
Guardian who I work withregularly said you're only
allowed to do it if you solve itor get close to solving it. So
that I did set out to to do thatwith the awareness that that is
actually quite difficult to do.
Especially when there's just areal kind of absence of
(03:57):
documents or hard evidence, akind of secondary problem with
investigating it, which I hadn'tanticipated was just that, given
the kind of terrible issues thathave hit the aviation industry
more broadly this year, I thinkpeople were a bit more reluctant
about speaking to journalists,even on something that was less
(04:17):
current, like the Gatwick dronestory, which is from a few years
ago, I think there was just alot of a lot of nervousness from
people who've maybe recentlylost their jobs or felt their
positions were insecure in someway. So that was another kind of
problem. See, I guess when youenter into this kind of thing,
you always hope that you'llyou'll get to the bottom of it
or as close to the bottom of itas you can, but you can't always
get definitive.
Ben Hall (04:39):
Yeah, I know from from a pilot's point of view. All of
my colleagues at the moment havebeen just keeping under the
radar and you know, that nobodywants to put their head above
the parapet because people aregetting chopped right, left,
right and centre so that theydon't want any excuse to, to
sort of be on the firing line.
Samira Shackle (04:58):
Yes, exactly.
You I actually spoke to someoneI was at university with his
pilot now to sort of ask hisadvice about reaching out to
people and I think he he saidit's like a pilot Armageddon at
the moment. might be difficult.
Dave Rogers (05:13):
Do you did at any point you feel as though I'm
getting close here, I mightcrack this?
Samira Shackle (05:21):
Um, I think I there are a few things which
felt like good breakthroughs.
One was finding kind ofcommunity of people who I'm sure
we'll get into this kind of veryenthusiastic drone hobbyists who
had been filing lots of fo eyesand, and kind of doing quite a
lot of that legwork over theyears. So that felt like a
really good, good moment. And Ithink actually, increasingly, as
(05:45):
I looked into it, rather than akind of gotcha moment, it felt a
bit like it might be harder toprove, because I became more
convinced of the kind ofargument that there was at least
a healthy portion of human errorin there. And it's basically
impossible to prove a negative.
But there were definitely a few,a few interviews in particular,
(06:08):
that changed my thinking. And Ithought, Okay, well, that's
quite convincing. Well, the
Dave Rogers (06:11):
human error thing in particular, so it was like,
it was almost like a humancondition investigation. Wasn't
it? Like people's minds playingtricks on them? What was the
photographer's name was EddieEddie?
Samira Shackle (06:23):
Eddie Eddie Mitchell. Yeah,
Dave Rogers (06:24):
when he thought he'd nailed the photo. And it
turns out, it was just ahelicopter. Goodness knows how
many miles away?
Samira Shackle (06:31):
Yeah, exactly.
That was one of the one of thequite early interviews I did.
And I just found that quite,quite convincing, basically,
that he obviously knew aboutdrones had a clear incentive to
getting a photo of it as aprofessional photographer, and
it spent pretty much the whole33 hours, barring time sleeping.
They're trying to photograph itand had not spotted it. So he
(06:53):
just seemed very kind ofreliable. He wasn't sort of
conspiratorial in his thinkingat all. He's just, you know,
kind of jobbing newsphotographer who happens to be
really into drones. And so yeah,that I just found immediately
kind of rang true, I guess thatinterview and he said, No, but
he'd thought that he'd seen it.
(07:14):
And if he's able to make thatmistake, and he flies drones two
or three times a week minimum,then there's obviously a lot of
scope for other people to thinkthey've seen a drone when they
haven't.
Dave Rogers (07:23):
Let's take it back to December 2018, then Ben, who
were you flying for at the time?
Ben Hall (07:29):
So I was flying, some special mission work. So I was
based in Bournemouth airport,flying little private jets,
Dave Rogers (07:35):
it's a good life, isn't it? And but you weren't.
So you weren't involved? Youweren't with an airline at the
time, but I'm sure you sort ofstill had your finger on the
pulse and a lot of connectionswith commercial pilots and the
commercial airline industry,what was the general feeling
around it all.
Ben Hall (07:50):
I wasn't with an airline at the time, but I was I
was still actively flying andBournemouth, obviously not a
million miles away from Gatwick.
So when you do your flightplanning, you obviously check
the weather you check thecondition of your aircraft, good
stuff, but you also get thesethings called notams which is
notice to airman So basically,if it basically covers
absolutely everything that mightbe unusual during your flight.
(08:14):
So it might be a light thatdoesn't work on the airport. But
also it's like Gatwick is closedbecause of drone activity. That
kind of piqued your attention alittle bit and then obviously it
comes out on the news veryquickly. And did
Dave Rogers (08:31):
did you sort of get on the on the text or the
WhatsApp or the phone orwhatever and try and find out
what was going on for yourself
Ben Hall (08:39):
and it didn't it didn't directly affects me
because guess it's just a littlebit too far away for me for it
to be an alternate for me. Butit was we kind of followed it
with interest from the crew roombecause sort of any aviation
story like that when planesgetting diverted left right and
centre is interesting andactually I think some people
(09:01):
came into Bournemouth as well soyou get some extra activity so
it does affect your day to daylife.
Dave Rogers (09:05):
Will you actually on a flight going into Gatwick
or have I or vice invented that?
No, no, you would be directlyaffected by was Yeah,
Samira Shackle (09:15):
I was on a I was on a flight. I was coming back
from Pakistan. I'd been on aresearch trip there. I do lots
of work in Pakistan. And I'dbeen there for like two and a
half weeks kind of workingpretty much every day and was
just really keen to get home. Itwas the it was in December, just
before Christmas on the 19th ofDecember. And I had been
(09:39):
travelling for about 12 hours orso. So I didn't know that any of
this was happening. And I wassort of asleep and woke up to an
announcement on the plane andthey were saying over the Tannoy
that we're not able to landbecause there's drone activity
at Gatwick and I was just likewhat I've kind of thought maybe
(09:59):
I was is dreaming it and thenyou obviously can't really get
onto plane Wi Fi very easily.
There's just that little kind offunction on the back of the back
of the seat screens where youcan see the headlines and it
just said to drone sighted overGatwick. Now, this was the
morning. And so it's been goingon for hours at this point,
which I didn't know. But myplane sort of circled for a
(10:20):
couple of hours and theneventually landed at Heathrow,
which is quite lucky because Ithink some flights got diverted
to Manchester or even Amsterdam,pretty far afield. See, I got I
landed at Heathrow maybe acouple of hours late. And there
was a lot of people at Heathrowand kind of Yeah, pretty, pretty
chaotic situation.
Dave Rogers (10:41):
Yeah, Carnage, really. And all you want to do
is get home and have a niceChristmas. And this might sound
a stupid question. But howdangerous is a drone to a
commercial plane? What what arethe risks, what can happen?
Ben Hall (10:59):
Mainly it's to do with impacts are a direct hit on the
drone. If it hits yourwindscreen, obviously, that
could be a bit of an issue. Butthe engines have a main problem.
So even a relatively smalldrone, I mean, there's a lot of
metal in there, quite dense,that goes through your engine,
you've probably lost yourengine. And then you get as soon
(11:20):
as you lose an engine, you startlosing hydraulics and you lose
sort of air bleed pressure and,and all sorts of secondary
repercussions. So that's reallythe main concern there.
Samira Shackle (11:32):
I went, I went down a bit of a rabbit hole on
this actually, because I at onepoint was thinking, well,
there's lots of birds hit planesand lots of you know, birds have
the same kind of size as drones.
And there's actually funnilyI've been academic studies on
that comparing the impact ofbirds and drones on planes. So
basically, similarly, just whatjust what Ben said that it's to
(11:52):
do with the metal and thebatteries in particular, that
can be a risk of collision orgoing into the engine. Also, the
Gatwick press office, when Ispoke to them said that another
risk is evasive action bypilots. So if they're trying to
avoid collision, then that couldalso cause risk to anyone on the
(12:14):
aircraft if they're kind offorced to swerve or whatever it
is. Yeah, that's the those arethe kind of main risks and
someone who I intervieweddescribed the bird versus drones
thing to me in a really grossway, which was like bird bones
or pliable.
Ben Hall (12:37):
bird strikes are quite common Actually, I've had my
fair share of birds in my life.
Usually, I mean, they if you goin the engine, most birds will
just integrate to be honest.
Samira Shackle (12:51):
Yeah, you
Ben Hall (12:52):
still need maintenance to go and check everything
through and clean the enginesmake sure the fan blades aren't
chipped and everything likethat. Whereas for drone impacts
the aircraft. I mean, that'sYeah,
Samira Shackle (13:04):
and a battery can cause a fire as well. And,
you know, there's all of that.
But there hasn't been actuallylike a huge amount of kind of
tests and so on done on it. Butyeah, the kind of it's quite
intuitive, I guess, to guess, tosee why that would pose a risk.
And the other thing that was itwas ruled out quite early with
(13:25):
Gatwick. But initially, when ithappened, there were there was a
kind of fear that it could beterror related in some way. And
they've been they've been somereports from around the world of
terror groups or kind ofguerrilla groups repurposing
consumer drones and using themto transport explosives. And so
(13:46):
it's not like that's not a kindof hugely common risk. But it is
something that can be done withdrones, which is when you have
an apparent drone sighting overa sensitive piece of
infrastructure, like an airport,that is obviously a worry as
well, the air collisions,
Dave Rogers (14:02):
the main thing do you have because drone is just
such a broad term these days,isn't it? You can you can go to
our gas and buy a drone for 100quid or you can be the, I don't
know the US Air Force usingdrones to cause all kinds of
things. So if you read aheadline that says drones at an
airport, that could mean anynumber of things. Have you ever
(14:24):
sort of had a close call withone banner? Have you ever
spotted one from any of theplanes you've flown?
Ben Hall (14:30):
Yeah, I've had a couple of I mean, not super
close calls. It's not like I'mdodging them. But when I did do
the private jet work down inBournemouth, we quite often used
to fly home, sort of down thecoast at not particularly high
altitudes. I mean, I'm not sortof scared running at this point,
but at sort of one to 2000 feetwhere the drones are not meant
(14:55):
to be flying but I've had acouple of times where, you know,
they're not very big, but At thepoint where you can see them,
you know, they're too close forcomfort. So I've had it a few
times down, sort of the southcoast of England.
Dave Rogers (15:10):
Right? What I'm really interested in here is
what happens after an articlelike this gets released because
I saw a picture of you, you werevery proud of it. You were
holding the newspaper and seethe byline and everything. And
but but what kind of response doyou get? And is it is it a
personal response to people getin touch with you afterwards to
(15:30):
either congratulate you or theopposite as social media tends
to be these days?
Samira Shackle (15:37):
Yeah, when something has a big reach like
that, and obviously chimed withlots of people, I think because
it was this sort of mystery thatlots of people were were curious
about, obviously, get lots ofcomments on social media, and
had some people emailing me,spending broadly pretty positive
(15:58):
response to this piece actually.
haven't really had strangersshouting at me on the internet,
had a few people on the firstday, and sort of complaining
that I said, I'd had funreporting it and say, Well, I
didn't have fun when my flightwas delayed. You know, whatever.
My flight was delayed to getover it, pal. I've had some some
(16:20):
people who are people who arevery up in arms that I didn't
investigate the possibility thatit was UFOs or aliens. And I was
gonna ask about this actually.
Ben Hall (16:40):
Tin hat brigade coming out. Yeah.
Samira Shackle (16:42):
Oh, yeah. I love it. I love it.
I've had a good few, quite longemails about that. And some
tweets as well.
Dave Rogers (16:52):
When they get in touch, then do they offer you
any evidence or any alternativesto what you've reported? Or is
it quite simply, this was UFOs.
Or you should have investigatedUFOs. Sorry to put on my
psychopaths voice there. But,you know,
Samira Shackle (17:07):
well, I had one.
I had a couple of quite quitesort of plaintive sounding
tweets that were like, well, hecould have at least looked at,
you know, in something of thatlength, he could have at least
considered whether it was UFOsand an email a couple of emails,
like pointing me towards somedocumentaries about UFOs that
are available online. Yeah, butthere's obviously not like clear
(17:29):
new information to offer thatmakes it more likely that it's
UFOs. I think, from speaking tosome of the, the sort of amateur
sleuth drone hobbyists who Iinterviewed with a piece some of
them have had some tips about,about the drones and more people
who've got photos from theevening and cross referencing
timestamps and that kind ofthing. So there's a bit a bit of
(17:51):
activity there, which is quitefun.
Dave Rogers (17:56):
The truth is out there.
Samira Shackle (17:57):
Yeah. Hopefully.
Dave Rogers (18:01):
The UFO stuff is is amazing, because it's only UFOs.
And that and that sort ofsubculture for it's completely
passed me by I don't knowanything about it. Isn't? Is the
aviation world full of it. Ben,do you get people getting in
touch all the time, I don't seeany UFO is good.
Ben Hall (18:21):
I've never had it at all. I've heard of sort of the
occasional fighter pilot hereand there. And occasionally
airline pilot who kind of recallseeing something a bit weird.
But you know, when you're whenyou're flying in the cockpit,
and you, you know, it's themiddle of the night and you've
been flying for the last 14hours or something. Your eyes
(18:42):
can play tricks on you very,very easily. I mean, there's
lots of sort of physiologicaleffects that you get trained
for. For example, there's onewhere if you stare at a
stationary light for too long,it looks like it starts moving
Samira Shackle (18:55):
really well.
Okay.
Ben Hall (18:57):
And there's lots of little ones like that. So I
said, I mean, I'm not aconspiracy theorist at all. So I
suspect, anybody that sees stufflike that is just these, either
your mind playing tricks onyour, you know, lens flare, or,
you know, whatever.
Dave Rogers (19:12):
And I suppose in its broadest sense, a UFO is
simply an unidentified flyingobject. It's something that you
you don't know what it is, itdoesn't necessarily mean that
it's aliens or so. I suppose. Isuppose in its broadest sense,
these drones are UFOs or is thata stress?
Samira Shackle (19:30):
bozo? Yeah.
Yeah. in that, in that broaddefinition, and it's interesting
to hear you talk about that,that and the kind of the way
that your eyes play tricks onyou, because that's something
that definitely came up a lot inmy reporting. And I think was
one of the flaws with the policeinvestigation into the drone
sightings was the the the kindof foundation of the evidence
(19:53):
and of the investigation was ifpeople if any sightings were
Could be cross referenced witheach other. So if people had
kind of cited the same thing,but that doesn't really account
for the fact that our eyes canbe quite bad at identifying what
something is, especially if thelight is not great, especially
if it's far away and and so on.
(20:15):
So actually just you know,several people seeing a light in
the sky doesn't mean that thatlight in the sky is a drone.
And, you know, there's a wholekind of whole thing about once
you're really training yourattention on something in a way
that you're not normally you,you put a lot of, you might put
more weight on somethinginnocuous that was there all
(20:36):
along, but you're suddenlyseeing so it actually turned out
that one cluster of sightingswhich had been initially
clusters credible, they turnedout to have been a black a light
on a crane. And did you knowlots of people had seen it was
high up and seem far away. Andit's a kind of you can see how
that would happen. Kind ofoptical illusion, much like
Eddie the photographer, taking apicture and then loading it up
(20:58):
and realising it's actually ahelicopter. They must have been
devastated. He was like on hisway to sending it sending it off
to his editors, and I thinkwould have made us he was
thinking he was thinking about anew car a lot extension. Yeah,
he's
Ben Hall (21:13):
already planning this holiday.
Dave Rogers (21:16):
My favourite sentence in the whole piece was
they weren't in fact, the idiotsthat ruined Christmas. Yeah.
Those poor people.
Samira Shackle (21:27):
Yeah, they had a horrible time. Yes, that was
Paul, Paul gate and Elaine Kirkare a couple who lived in
Crawley a couple of miles awayfrom the airport. And they were
not only arrested, I mean, theyhad 12 armed police officers
descend on their house, which iscrazy. And they were then their
(21:47):
names were leaked to the press.
And they were everywhere. And asyou say, on a very memorable
front page in the mail, theirphotos and the headline Are
these the morons who ruinedChristmas. And it turned out not
only were they at work, whilethe while the sightings were
happening. They didn't even havea drone. He was oh my goodness.
He was a model aircraftenthusiast, but they didn't have
didn't have drones. So when theysend
Ben Hall (22:10):
like armed police there was there was well, when
there was the threat of it mightbe a terrorist risk and stuff.
Samira Shackle (22:15):
Well, no, they ruled out the terrorist risk
while the while it was stillgoing on. So I don't really know
what the rationale is forsending armed police officers. I
guess that this was about a dayor so after it had all stopped.
And I think there was kind ofanxiety that it was like a
sophisticated and maliciousattack. And maybe there was some
(22:36):
involvement of organised crimeor some kind of nefarious aim.
But, you know, seem seems kindof crazy, really to storm in
like that.
Dave Rogers (22:46):
Absolutely. I've been just terrifying as well,
because even if they've beenable to do enough of a
background check on those peopleto know that they're just a
married couple who live in amodest house.
Samira Shackle (22:59):
Yeah, yeah, he was a window fitter than a
soldier. Just piping had a loadof model aircrafts and model
helicopters and things likethat. But yeah, we think the
worst thing for them, it seemsas their their names being
leaked. So they got got a bigpayout from the police for
wrongful arrest in June, thisyear. Or shall I say in June
(23:24):
2020. Because it's going outnext year.
Dave Rogers (23:27):
Sorry, the magic of podcasting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So
Samira Shackle (23:31):
yeah, so they got a big payout for wrongful
arrest from Sussex police inJune 2020. And, you know,
they're their identities are outthere and they can't really do
anything about that. And they'reoften referred to as the Gatwick
couple. And you know, it's notnot great for them. They didn't
ask for any of that attention.
Ben Hall (23:46):
No tarnished. The name is tarnished for life, isn't it?
Samira Shackle (23:50):
Yeah. Yeah. It kind of comes up forever on your
Google searches, doesn't
Dave Rogers (23:53):
it? infamy isn't the friend of many people. Is it
but you know, good. Good luck tothem. Hopefully they can. I
don't know. Just Just be happy.
What a terrible experience forus to go through. Oh,
Samira Shackle (24:05):
yeah. Yeah, seems like from Yeah, from
talking to people from the localarea, like just people who had
drones and model aircraft andlive near Gatwick. Got ya got a
call?
Dave Rogers (24:18):
You talked about the sort of amateur sleuths and
the and the drone enthusiasts,it was Ian Hudson. He was the
sort of ringleader of those wasme. They did some pretty good
work by the looks of things.
Samira Shackle (24:31):
Yeah, yeah, they did in had done lots and lots of
Freedom of Information requests.
And those are for anyone notfamiliar, pretty arduous
process. So under the Freedom ofInformation Act, public bodies
have to sort of respond to theserequests for freedom of
information, which anyone cancan put in. So it's not just
(24:53):
journalists or organisations anycitizen can can request but the
wild public is obligated toanswer they've, they've got
quite a lot of leeway to get outof giving the information. So
they can say it will want someof the most common ones, they
can say it will take too long toget this information for you. So
(25:16):
it's not kind of reasonablerequest in terms of the manpower
it will take. Or they can sayit's a national security risk,
or, or so on. So that normallyget some kind of refusal. And
it's they have to respond withinI think it's 28 days or
something like that. And so it'soften a bit of a process like
they might say, not be able togive you all the information. So
(25:38):
you give you part of it, thenyou refine, go back with a more
refined and more specificquestion and use that to find
out what documents they've got.
And then you can request thedocuments. So it can take
months, something thatinvestigative journalists do a
lot but people working on onlonger deadlines can't do and
Ian had just been kind of offhis own steam, filing Freedom of
(25:58):
Information requests. So he'dbeen finding them started off
sort of generally around drones,and wanting to show that, that
fears about drone technology areoverstated. And that while there
are these kind of high profilecases where they've been used to
take contraband into prisons, orwhatever it is that they that
(26:19):
that's actually quite where andthere aren't really that many
kind of legal cases and arrestsand prosecutions actually
brought over drone misuse. So hewas already kind of in the habit
of it and then following theGatwick stuff, he sort of felt
that there were discrepanciesand as lots of people did, I
think watching it that it didn'tall quite make sense. So he
started Yeah, started filing flyto Sussex police and the
(26:43):
Department for Transport andeven the Civil Aviation
Authority as well, I thinkgetting getting mixed results.
So yeah, what he found on theothers filing fly is is that
Sussex police in particular justreally really unresponsive.
Dave Rogers (26:57):
I love it when enthusiasts about anything, get
the bit between their teeth,when they feel as though the
thing that they love is beinggiven a hard time. So whether
it's him with the drones, orpeople with a with a particular
passion for certain animals,like there was that that what's
the what's the name of the fellafrom ease in love, actually, and
(27:21):
he's in taken Liam Neeson andhe's in if he's in a film where
he has fistfights with wolves,have you ever seen it know what
it's called, although fistfights with Wolves would be a
great sign. So and a lot of wolfenthusiasts are like, this is
completely unfair. Wolves aregreat kinda animals, and they go
out of their way to prove thatand there was the there was the
(27:41):
whole thing with when SteveIrwin got killed by the Stingray
as well. Well, now we'repainting sting rays in a bad
light. They're fantastic animalsor whatever, I like people with
a, with a genuine passion goingout of their way to sort of
prove that what they love isn't,isn't an evil thing. So quick
questions here, both with all ofthe terrible things that drones
(28:03):
do like dropping off drugs inprisons, and being doctored. So
they can drop grenades, and ofcourse, all of the military
stuff. And there are greatthings as well. So they can be
used to drop off medicines, andyou've got people using them to
save money by looking at damagedroofs. If you could use a drone
for good. What would you use itfor?
Ben Hall (28:26):
Who's first? No. I've got a good one, actually. So
I've got quite a few friends inSouth Africa. And they use
drones really effectively topatrol perimeters of game
reserves and stuff.
Samira Shackle (28:42):
Nice.
Ben Hall (28:43):
Yeah, so they can and they can also track the animals
with them a lot more efficientlythan if I did it in person. So I
really like applications likethat.
Dave Rogers (28:51):
Yeah, use them to catch poachers. Yeah, good
Samira Shackle (28:55):
one. Yeah, that's a really good one using
the kind of camera technology. Ithink a good ones kind of a
classic, which is that they canbe used really effectively, like
in wildfires, or in any kind ofbig fire. So just kind of going
over and above and surveying.
surveying the situation and justsort of making sure they're
(29:16):
making sure they're safe. Andusing that to inform rescue
missions. Think that's probablylike a really good use of
drones, which you could probablysee more of, sadly, as we're
likely to get more things likewildfires.
Dave Rogers (29:29):
Hashtag drones for good.
Samira Shackle (29:32):
Yeah, well, people who people who are into
drones are really into them andthe kind of positive
applications. You've seen themused to, like get medicines to
hard to reach areas and thatkind of stuff as well. But I
mean, do you think all of thatsaid most people like them
because they take really coolphotos?
Dave Rogers (29:51):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. They're a toy that you
can spend money on.
Ben Hall (29:55):
I own a drone actually, was just a small one.
Just a little hobbyist one.
Okay, and actually I don't useit that often but it is a great
bit of kit.
Dave Rogers (30:06):
You can't use it to record the podcast it be too
noisy.
Samira Shackle (30:09):
Yeah. A really hum
Ben Hall (30:13):
some lovely, lovely footage from it.
Dave Rogers (30:16):
Okay, well, I look forward to the pilot base
YouTube channel with all of youyour great drone footage
Ben Hall (30:23):
with that as well, so the footage isn't great.
Dave Rogers (30:25):
Oh my god, are you telling me an actual pilot can't
fly a drone? Please put Yeah,when
Ben Hall (30:31):
I was growing up, I wasn't I never really used
computer games that much orremote control cars. So it's a
little bit of a different skillset to be honest.
Dave Rogers (30:40):
If at any point, you get on a flight in the next
few years, and you're here. Goodafternoon, everyone. This is
your captain speaking BenjaminHall just chill just just for
the duration of the flight.
Ben Hall (30:55):
So I don't know if you guys have seen recently, but I
think it was in October I saw itin the news that there was an
aircraft coming into lax. Sothis is one of the busiest
international airports in theworld. And they record reported
a man flying in a jet pack up6000 feet. Oh, yes. A lot just
(31:16):
hovering around the ground. Theywere four to 6000 feet.
Samira Shackle (31:22):
Oh my god. Yes.
Wow.
Ben Hall (31:25):
It's not a drone. But I think if you're impacted man
in a jet suit, you're gonna havesome problems
Samira Shackle (31:29):
for both of you are gonna he's gonna have some
problems. That is terrifying.
Can you imagine? Yeah,
Ben Hall (31:36):
I mean, I've seen a few guys that are kind of
creating jet pack kind of kits.
I mean, there's a there's areally cool application in the
UK. There's a guy called Richardbrowning, who owns gravity, Inc.
So basically, he connects littlejet engines to his arms. And
he's using them for sort ofsearch and rescue mission fins
and helping out in the militaryand stuff. So that's
Samira Shackle (31:57):
growl.
Ben Hall (31:58):
I think there's also some hobbyists who have
basically strapped a jet engineto their back popped a little
wing on their body and go flyingaround a little bit.
Samira Shackle (32:10):
dangerous.
Ben Hall (32:12):
Yeah, like ridiculously dangerous. If
you're gonna go and do that headout into the desert where
there's no aircraft in sight.
Just go to an app, and just riskyour own life. Not not 500
people on there.
Dave Rogers (32:24):
Oh, my goodness. Do you know what the what the
repercussions were in terms oflegality?
Ben Hall (32:30):
Well, they're definitely not allowed to be
flying around. at 6000 feet nearan airport. That's 100%. But I
don't think they ever caught thebloke and I think there's been a
few different sightings as well.
So I don't think it's a one offevent.
Dave Rogers (32:43):
Which you are this a cat look. Welcome. Yes, behind
you. Would you would you ever goat that severe would you?
strategy? Absolutely not. I'm
Samira Shackle (32:54):
a huge coward. I can barely even ride a bike.
Dave Rogers (32:57):
A ban.
Ben Hall (32:59):
Ah, not not a 6000 feet I wouldn't.
Dave Rogers (33:03):
I've got another close to the ground. I've got
another friend who's a pilot.
And this isn't one of the I'vegot another friend when it's
actually you, Ben. But I've gotanother friend who who is a
pilot in the forces. And on astag do we went on a gorge walk?
And there was a 20 foot cliffjump that he wouldn't do. So he
flies 25 3035 40,000 feet in theair, but wouldn't jump 20 feet
(33:29):
into water. Human beings a verygood Oh, well, right then
Sameera, we've, we've kept youfor a long time. But I'm going
to keep you for a little bitlonger. Because now I'd like to
blow some sunshine up yourbackside. Let's talk numbers
because I've congratulated youon the success. But in the first
(33:51):
week, there were hundreds of1000s of views and reads on this
article. Can you say exactly howmany?
Samira Shackle (34:03):
Yeah, well, in the first 24 hours that it was
up, it was getting on for half amillion, which was amazing. I
think. I don't know how it'sbeen done since then. But it was
a really big, big numbers hit soyeah, I guess people, people
like drones or maybe people likemysteries. I was that.
Dave Rogers (34:22):
Was that just online? Or was that with a
circulation of money that
Samira Shackle (34:24):
was just that was just online. So plus the
circulation of the newspaper,which I'm not sure exactly where
the circulation of the newspaperis now. But yeah, there's a lot
of a lot of interest.
Dave Rogers (34:33):
salutely absolutely amazing. And I know you you
regularly write for for TheGuardian, among many other
things, and I don't necessarilywant you to give me the numbers
of other things that you'vewritten. But this is higher than
previous articles. Yeah,
Samira Shackle (34:50):
definitely. I mean, I don't normally get the
numbers as a freelancer and thiswas was sort of significant
enough to get kind of excited.
Ah, how many numbers? This isSo, as you know, I had a sense
from from Twitter. But that'snot always the two things don't
always necessarily go together,you might get lots of noise
about something on social mediawithout it translating into that
(35:11):
many readers, especially forsuch a big long thing.
Dave Rogers (35:17):
I love Twitter, but it is the ultimate false
equivalence, isn't it?
Samira Shackle (35:21):
Yes, actually, I got some good messages, got some
good messages saying, goodarticle, but a bit long, which
is funny, since it's called thelong read.
Dave Rogers (35:32):
So give us an idea of exactly how long a long read
takes from inception and initialideas to publication.
Samira Shackle (35:42):
It's pretty slow process, actually. And that's
partly because of doing itaround other things. But at
least a few months. And I thinkfor this, it's probably getting
on for six months with somegaps, you know, like doing other
things for for quite longspells. I mean, if I kind of
compressed it all, it would havebeen quicker. But that's, you
(36:04):
know, when you want to dosomething that's in depth, you
really want to the thing thatmakes it different is really
trying to talk to everyone thatyou can and just kind of getting
hold of all those differentpeople. And all of that can
just, it's just quite timeconsuming. That's the really
kind of unglamorous bit justsending lots of kind of messages
(36:25):
and emails and calling peopleand trying to get people to talk
to you. And then there's thewhole kind of writing it and
being edited to have quite anintensive editing process. just
good for something of thatlength. You want it to have a
real kind of narrative. be easyto read. It's well
Dave Rogers (36:41):
worth it. Yeah.
Samira Shackle (36:43):
Yeah, definitely. I enjoy it. I find
it very satisfying. Good. Yeah,it's fun.
Dave Rogers (36:47):
Well, I certainly I did. Yeah. I thought it was
absolutely fantastic. Well,let's talk about sort of you and
other projects you've got so interms of your career, if I've
left anything out or addedanything in just just correct me
now I've got writer, journalist,editor of the New humanist,
documentarian, and a word that Idon't like, but I have to use
(37:10):
podcaster. What if I, what if Iadded or miss there? If I just
Samira Shackle (37:18):
nailed it? I think you got everything. Yeah.
documentarians. quite generous,because I've only made one
documentary. But you know, I'lltake it. Oh, that counts.
Dave Rogers (37:26):
What would you call somebody who's only made one
documentary? And how manydocumentaries Do you have to
have made to be it?
Samira Shackle (37:33):
I'll take it.
Dave Rogers (37:35):
But that was, that was a success, too, wasn't it?
But I don't want to talk aboutthat. today. I want to talk
about things that are fresh andnew and exciting. So I'm going
to toss a coin in the air heads,we talk podcast tails, we talk
book heads or tails. Heads.
What's that podcast?
Samira Shackle (37:53):
I don't remember.
Dave Rogers (37:57):
So as editor of the New humanist, you have cooked up
a new podcast project. I've gotexploring faith and fraternity,
intimacy and technology, charityand virtue, black feminism, race
and belonging, work and desirein late capitalism. So Ben, I
don't think we're getting thecall to be guests on that one in
(38:18):
particular. But sounds like anamazing new project taught me
taught me through that.
Samira Shackle (38:25):
Yeah, so the those are the themes that you
just read off for the kind ofareas and the different episodes
we're exploring. So our taglineis intelligent thinking in
turbulent times, the name of thepodcast is with reason. And it's
basically just a space for newresearch and thinkers. So the
(38:45):
kind of simplest elevator pitch,I guess, is having a really
detailed conversation withsomeone who's done loads of
research about an interestingthing, and just getting them to
tell us about the interestingthing that they know loads
about. And so it's been reallyinteresting. It's quite Yeah,
quite a wide variety. We've gotpeople talking about, like,
(39:05):
charity, and he talks aboutstuff from, from the kind of
poppy appeal and clap for carersand right through to the more
kind of theoretical ways that werelate to charity. got someone
talking about the future of sextech and sex robots and machines
that can give you a hug. Andyeah, just a really big range.
(39:28):
So it's been, it's been greatfun. We've done an initial
series of six episodes and beputting out another series next
year. Hopefully,
Dave Rogers (39:35):
I'm so glad you said give you a hug, then. Also,
intelligent thinking inturbulent times would have been
such a good tagline for thispodcast, Ben. Yeah.
But did you enjoy the process ofmaking it? Yeah,
Samira Shackle (39:57):
yeah. It was quite new for me doing a
podcast. Yeah, it's fun kind ofthinking. thinking a bit
differently. Working in adifferent medium. Kind of
interesting learning how to dothat in the middle of a pandemic
when you're at home and not in astudio.
Dave Rogers (40:17):
Sounds very familiar. Yeah. Is that
available for subscribers of newhumans available to
Samira Shackle (40:26):
everyone? It's on every every podcast app. It's
on Spotify. It's free. There aresubscription offers for
neohumanist on the podcast, butyou don't have to subscribe to
to listen.
Dave Rogers (40:35):
Awesome. I very much hoping that people have
listened to you today. And I'llbe straight on that. Because if
it's anywhere near asinteresting as this chat we, I
mean, I can't wait to have tohave a good listen. And Bobby
straight on it. So great. You'vegot broadcasts to do with us
first, may you you wind yourneck. Oh, yeah. Karachi vice?
Samira Shackle (40:58):
Yes, yeah. So that's my book. That's actually
what I was researching when Igot stuck on the plane circling
over Gatwick. 2018. So fullcircle in this conversation. And
yeah, that's my first book,which is coming out on the
fourth of February. And it is anonfiction book about Pakistan's
(41:19):
largest city. And it kind oftells the story of different
urban conflicts in the citythrough human stories. That's a
close focus on five ordinarypeople who've lived through this
really crazy period of violence,and political upheaval, and so
on. And just kind of, I wentinto a lot of detail with these
five amazing people who werevery patient about having lots
(41:43):
and lots of questions asked andhaving me follow them around.
And kind of just just told theirtheir stories unfolded in the
wider political changes inPakistan. And around that. So
yeah, that will be out inFebruary, it was quite strange,
and you have something living inyour head for years,
Dave Rogers (42:03):
you must get such a huge amount of satisfaction from
the vast majority of your work.
Samira Shackle (42:09):
Yes, yeah, I really enjoy it. It's great.
Just getting to as with thepodcast, and also with the book
in different ways, just gettinggetting interesting people to
tell me lots of things, it'sreally good. That's the best
part of it.
Dave Rogers (42:23):
Just just talking about the people, you you follow
around there. And you weresaying that you that you asked
them a lot of questions, andthat you had to spend a lot of
time with them. Do you ever? Andthis is a strange question, but
it's sort of on purpose. Do youever feel guilty about taking
people's time even though it'sfor a grater goes at a great
(42:43):
project and something that'sgoing to be brilliant, and? And
hopefully last a long timebeyond you them?
Samira Shackle (42:51):
Yeah, I think so. And definitely, with
something like a book where youreally do if you're kind of
reconstructing someone'sexperiences for the last 10
years through interviews, youreally do have to interview them
a lot to make that accurate anda lot of time for them. And
you're probably not going to usea lot of what you get from the
interview. They don't have anykind of clear benefit to doing
(43:14):
it really, it's not like they'regetting paid or they immediately
become famous, or you know whatI mean, they don't have any
clear benefits I definitelyconscious of of people's time
that they're giving the I justtried to be kind of
accommodating and respectful.
And yeah, respect people'sboundaries, really. But yeah,
I'm definitely aware of it.
(43:36):
Good.
Dave Rogers (43:37):
And are there any future projects, long reads
books, films that we can lookforward to any ideas that you
cooking up?
Samira Shackle (43:46):
At the moment, I just want to sleep for a long
time is a year.
But hopefully some more ideassoon. It makes me think of a
fighter told you this already,Dave but I did. I went to a
careers fair at my old school.
And they kind of they set you upin like this sort of like a
speed dating thing. And theycould see like, oh, there's a
(44:08):
journalist, there's a lawyer andthey could come and sit down and
ask questions. Most of them werejust asking, oh, what a levels
do I need to do if I want to bea journalist or whatever, and
one girl came and she said, herfirst question was, how much
creative freedom have you got? Iwas like, quite a lot. You know,
I come up with all the ideas ofthe stuff I do blah, blah, blah.
And her second question. Andlast question was, what are you
(44:29):
going to do if the ideas stop?
Dave Rogers (44:35):
I'm actually just going to spiral into existential
dread now, so thank you have agreat evening.
Samira Shackle (44:40):
Yeah. Oh, my
Dave Rogers (44:41):
God.
Samira Shackle (44:45):
subconscious is that you
Dave Rogers (44:49):
know, no, it's not a person or a mirror. Ah. And
then they just moved on.
Fantastic. That was it.
Samira Shackle (44:57):
Yeah. She didn't have any further questions.
Dave Rogers (45:00):
16
Samira Shackle (45:01):
Yeah, 17 tops.
Dave Rogers (45:02):
Ah, amazing. I'd love for you to catch up with
her in tears. Well, what doeshappen if the idea stop? Don't
answer that I've got. I've gotone final question before we say
thank you to Samira ban. Haveyou got any?
Ben Hall (45:22):
No, I've just got a little detachably. That just
reminded me when you're talkingabout Karachi vice, and when I
worked at the Middle East, Iused to fly into Pakistan quite
frequently, it was justreturning around so we didn't
get to stay over. But I alwayshoped you'd have a really good
memory because you would landall the passengers would
disembark and then the groundcrew Come on, and the engineers
(45:42):
would sort of fix everything upand you'll get refuelled and
then all of the staff, it musthave been sort of 50 per turn
around, would line up in frontof your aircraft and salute you
as you push back.
Samira Shackle (45:55):
Really?
Ben Hall (45:56):
Yeah, it's the only place in the world I've ever
seen. It's like a really nicetouch though. Because usually, I
mean, the engineers and stuffare so busy that i'll come on
your plane, fix something and gostraight to the next one. Huh,
but just happens to be inPakistan. You just get this
really nice send off every time.
Samira Shackle (46:12):
Oh, nice.
Dave Rogers (46:13):
That's really nice.
Really, really nice. Okay, asSamir, thank you so much. This
has been such a brilliant,brilliant chat. And it's it's
nice. It's nice to chat to yousort of professionally about
work because I'm fascinated byby what you do and keep doing a
brilliant job. Essentially. God,I hope the ideas keep coming. If
not, you've got a lovely cat.
Samira Shackle (46:37):
So She's good.
She's a good girl.
Dave Rogers (46:40):
Okay, final question. Ben. You get to answer
this first. Samira. You've got abit more time to think about it
even though I think you've gotan answer for it already. Was
there a drone Yes or no? Yes.
Samira.
Samira Shackle (46:57):
Oh, I'm a reporter. I'm gonna say on the
balance of probabilities. No. Ormaybe I should say that there
isn't much evidence for Yes.
Dave Rogers (47:11):
Very journalistic answer, which means you'll
probably be getting victoryagain. Yeah. Samir, thank you so
much. This has been absolutelybrilliant look after yourself.
Samira Shackle (47:21):
Cool. Thanks for having me.
Ben Hall (47:24):
Thanks for listening to the pilot based podcast.
We'll be back next week withanother great guest from the
aviation industry. Don't forgetto check out our new career
platform at pilot base COMM Andall the socials at pilot base
HQ. If you enjoyed this podcast,don't forget to subscribe and
write this review
Hello, and welcome to the pilot base podcast. I'm Ben
and I've been a pilot for over adecade,
Dave Rogers (00:11):
and I'm categoric not.
Ben Hall (00:14):
Every Monday we'll be chatting to both pilots and non
pilots with amazing aviationstories from all around the
world. You can find all episodesof the pilot based podcast for
free wherever you get yourpodcasts. If you like what
you're hearing, subscribe to ourchannel and leave us a review.
Dave Rogers (00:28):
In Episode Five. We welcome our first non pilot
guests now cast your mind backto the end of 2018 when an
alleged drone sighting saidGatwick Airport into complete
meltdown, the airport was closed1000 flights were either
cancelled or redirected. 140,000passengers had their travel
(00:49):
plans put into completedisarray. arrests were made
conspiracy theory surfaced itcost millions of pounds but
ultimately, nobody was evercharged. Nobody was ever blamed,
and nobody ever really got tothe bottom of it. Fast forward
to 2020 when renowned author andjournalist Samira shackle
(01:11):
today's podcast guests, took adeep dive. She did the long read
for The Guardian. She spentmonths doing research she talked
to pretty much everyone shecould speak to and produced a
fabulous piece of journalism. Ifyou've not read it, I recommend
you do on the day it wasreleased. It got so many reads
on the Guardian website that theoffice actually contacted
(01:33):
Sameera to tell her and I'm toldon good authority that very
rarely happens. She's abrilliant guest with lots going
on and it's a fascinatingconversation. So Samira shackle
is she is Samir shackell.
Welcome to the pilot base. Howare you?
Samira Shackle (01:54):
I'm good. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Dave Rogers (01:56):
I'm so pleased you're here. Ben, how are you?
Ben Hall (02:00):
I'm doing very well.
Thanks, Dave. How are you doing?
Dave Rogers (02:02):
Yeah, yeah, I'm alright. I'm really excited to
have this chat. Firstly, Samira.
You're our first non pilot gueston the pilot bass podcast. So
that's, that's an excitingthing. But also, I just can't
wait to get into this subjectmatter. And congratulations on
the success of the article. Bythe way, it seems like it's
gone. berserk.
Samira Shackle (02:23):
Yeah, thanks. It really has seems like lots of
people on the internet were asobsessed with the Gatwick drone
as I was, which was nice.
Dave Rogers (02:32):
But because you've done absolutely loads for The
Guardian over the years. I mean,you've got an incredibly diverse
career that we'll we'll dig intoas the podcast progresses. But
why do you think this article inparticular really caught
people's imaginations?
Samira Shackle (02:47):
It's a good question. Actually. I think it's
partly that it was such a weirdstory. And I think it's one of
those things that people justeveryone sort of remembers it
happening fairly recent coupleof years ago. And it's one of
those things that when youmention it, people are like, Oh,
yeah, I remember that whatactually happened. And then the
fact that there was never anyreal resolution to this enormous
(03:08):
news event, I think, is enoughto really get people interested.
And then people also love a bitof fast when it comes to news
story.
Dave Rogers (03:21):
Did you go into it thinking, I'm actually going to
get to the bottom of this andfind out exactly who did it and
exactly when it happened andexactly where they were? Or did
you always think it might be alittle bit open ended,
Samira Shackle (03:33):
I thought it might be a bit open ended, I've
wanted to do something about itfor ages and my editor at The
Guardian who I work withregularly said you're only
allowed to do it if you solve itor get close to solving it. So
that I did set out to to do thatwith the awareness that that is
actually quite difficult to do.
Especially when there's just areal kind of absence of
(03:57):
documents or hard evidence, akind of secondary problem with
investigating it, which I hadn'tanticipated was just that, given
the kind of terrible issues thathave hit the aviation industry
more broadly this year, I thinkpeople were a bit more reluctant
about speaking to journalists,even on something that was less
(04:17):
current, like the Gatwick dronestory, which is from a few years
ago, I think there was just alot of a lot of nervousness from
people who've maybe recentlylost their jobs or felt their
positions were insecure in someway. So that was another kind of
problem. See, I guess when youenter into this kind of thing,
you always hope that you'llyou'll get to the bottom of it
or as close to the bottom of itas you can, but you can't always
get definitive.
Ben Hall (04:39):
Yeah, I know from from a pilot's point of view. All of
my colleagues at the moment havebeen just keeping under the
radar and you know, that nobodywants to put their head above
the parapet because people aregetting chopped right, left,
right and centre so that theydon't want any excuse to, to
sort of be on the firing line.
Samira Shackle (04:58):
Yes, exactly.
You I actually spoke to someoneI was at university with his
pilot now to sort of ask hisadvice about reaching out to
people and I think he he saidit's like a pilot Armageddon at
the moment. might be difficult.
Dave Rogers (05:13):
Do you did at any point you feel as though I'm
getting close here, I mightcrack this?
Samira Shackle (05:21):
Um, I think I there are a few things which
felt like good breakthroughs.
One was finding kind ofcommunity of people who I'm sure
we'll get into this kind of veryenthusiastic drone hobbyists who
had been filing lots of fo eyesand, and kind of doing quite a
lot of that legwork over theyears. So that felt like a
really good, good moment. And Ithink actually, increasingly, as
(05:45):
I looked into it, rather than akind of gotcha moment, it felt a
bit like it might be harder toprove, because I became more
convinced of the kind ofargument that there was at least
a healthy portion of human errorin there. And it's basically
impossible to prove a negative.
But there were definitely a few,a few interviews in particular,
(06:08):
that changed my thinking. And Ithought, Okay, well, that's
quite convincing. Well, the
Dave Rogers (06:11):
human error thing in particular, so it was like,
it was almost like a humancondition investigation. Wasn't
it? Like people's minds playingtricks on them? What was the
photographer's name was EddieEddie?
Samira Shackle (06:23):
Eddie Eddie Mitchell. Yeah,
Dave Rogers (06:24):
when he thought he'd nailed the photo. And it
turns out, it was just ahelicopter. Goodness knows how
many miles away?
Samira Shackle (06:31):
Yeah, exactly.
That was one of the one of thequite early interviews I did.
And I just found that quite,quite convincing, basically,
that he obviously knew aboutdrones had a clear incentive to
getting a photo of it as aprofessional photographer, and
it spent pretty much the whole33 hours, barring time sleeping.
They're trying to photograph itand had not spotted it. So he
(06:53):
just seemed very kind ofreliable. He wasn't sort of
conspiratorial in his thinkingat all. He's just, you know,
kind of jobbing newsphotographer who happens to be
really into drones. And so yeah,that I just found immediately
kind of rang true, I guess thatinterview and he said, No, but
he'd thought that he'd seen it.
(07:14):
And if he's able to make thatmistake, and he flies drones two
or three times a week minimum,then there's obviously a lot of
scope for other people to thinkthey've seen a drone when they
haven't.
Dave Rogers (07:23):
Let's take it back to December 2018, then Ben, who
were you flying for at the time?
Ben Hall (07:29):
So I was flying, some special mission work. So I was
based in Bournemouth airport,flying little private jets,
Dave Rogers (07:35):
it's a good life, isn't it? And but you weren't.
So you weren't involved? Youweren't with an airline at the
time, but I'm sure you sort ofstill had your finger on the
pulse and a lot of connectionswith commercial pilots and the
commercial airline industry,what was the general feeling
around it all.
Ben Hall (07:50):
I wasn't with an airline at the time, but I was I
was still actively flying andBournemouth, obviously not a
million miles away from Gatwick.
So when you do your flightplanning, you obviously check
the weather you check thecondition of your aircraft, good
stuff, but you also get thesethings called notams which is
notice to airman So basically,if it basically covers
absolutely everything that mightbe unusual during your flight.
(08:14):
So it might be a light thatdoesn't work on the airport. But
also it's like Gatwick is closedbecause of drone activity. That
kind of piqued your attention alittle bit and then obviously it
comes out on the news veryquickly. And did
Dave Rogers (08:31):
did you sort of get on the on the text or the
WhatsApp or the phone orwhatever and try and find out
what was going on for yourself
Ben Hall (08:39):
and it didn't it didn't directly affects me
because guess it's just a littlebit too far away for me for it
to be an alternate for me. Butit was we kind of followed it
with interest from the crew roombecause sort of any aviation
story like that when planesgetting diverted left right and
centre is interesting andactually I think some people
(09:01):
came into Bournemouth as well soyou get some extra activity so
it does affect your day to daylife.
Dave Rogers (09:05):
Will you actually on a flight going into Gatwick
or have I or vice invented that?
No, no, you would be directlyaffected by was Yeah,
Samira Shackle (09:15):
I was on a I was on a flight. I was coming back
from Pakistan. I'd been on aresearch trip there. I do lots
of work in Pakistan. And I'dbeen there for like two and a
half weeks kind of workingpretty much every day and was
just really keen to get home. Itwas the it was in December, just
before Christmas on the 19th ofDecember. And I had been
(09:39):
travelling for about 12 hours orso. So I didn't know that any of
this was happening. And I wassort of asleep and woke up to an
announcement on the plane andthey were saying over the Tannoy
that we're not able to landbecause there's drone activity
at Gatwick and I was just likewhat I've kind of thought maybe
(09:59):
I was is dreaming it and thenyou obviously can't really get
onto plane Wi Fi very easily.
There's just that little kind offunction on the back of the back
of the seat screens where youcan see the headlines and it
just said to drone sighted overGatwick. Now, this was the
morning. And so it's been goingon for hours at this point,
which I didn't know. But myplane sort of circled for a
(10:20):
couple of hours and theneventually landed at Heathrow,
which is quite lucky because Ithink some flights got diverted
to Manchester or even Amsterdam,pretty far afield. See, I got I
landed at Heathrow maybe acouple of hours late. And there
was a lot of people at Heathrowand kind of Yeah, pretty, pretty
chaotic situation.
Dave Rogers (10:41):
Yeah, Carnage, really. And all you want to do
is get home and have a niceChristmas. And this might sound
a stupid question. But howdangerous is a drone to a
commercial plane? What what arethe risks, what can happen?
Ben Hall (10:59):
Mainly it's to do with impacts are a direct hit on the
drone. If it hits yourwindscreen, obviously, that
could be a bit of an issue. Butthe engines have a main problem.
So even a relatively smalldrone, I mean, there's a lot of
metal in there, quite dense,that goes through your engine,
you've probably lost yourengine. And then you get as soon
(11:20):
as you lose an engine, you startlosing hydraulics and you lose
sort of air bleed pressure and,and all sorts of secondary
repercussions. So that's reallythe main concern there.
Samira Shackle (11:32):
I went, I went down a bit of a rabbit hole on
this actually, because I at onepoint was thinking, well,
there's lots of birds hit planesand lots of you know, birds have
the same kind of size as drones.
And there's actually funnilyI've been academic studies on
that comparing the impact ofbirds and drones on planes. So
basically, similarly, just whatjust what Ben said that it's to
(11:52):
do with the metal and thebatteries in particular, that
can be a risk of collision orgoing into the engine. Also, the
Gatwick press office, when Ispoke to them said that another
risk is evasive action bypilots. So if they're trying to
avoid collision, then that couldalso cause risk to anyone on the
(12:14):
aircraft if they're kind offorced to swerve or whatever it
is. Yeah, that's the those arethe kind of main risks and
someone who I intervieweddescribed the bird versus drones
thing to me in a really grossway, which was like bird bones
or pliable.
Ben Hall (12:37):
bird strikes are quite common Actually, I've had my
fair share of birds in my life.
Usually, I mean, they if you goin the engine, most birds will
just integrate to be honest.
Samira Shackle (12:51):
Yeah, you
Ben Hall (12:52):
still need maintenance to go and check everything
through and clean the enginesmake sure the fan blades aren't
chipped and everything likethat. Whereas for drone impacts
the aircraft. I mean, that'sYeah,
Samira Shackle (13:04):
and a battery can cause a fire as well. And,
you know, there's all of that.
But there hasn't been actuallylike a huge amount of kind of
tests and so on done on it. Butyeah, the kind of it's quite
intuitive, I guess, to guess, tosee why that would pose a risk.
And the other thing that was itwas ruled out quite early with
(13:25):
Gatwick. But initially, when ithappened, there were there was a
kind of fear that it could beterror related in some way. And
they've been they've been somereports from around the world of
terror groups or kind ofguerrilla groups repurposing
consumer drones and using themto transport explosives. And so
(13:46):
it's not like that's not a kindof hugely common risk. But it is
something that can be done withdrones, which is when you have
an apparent drone sighting overa sensitive piece of
infrastructure, like an airport,that is obviously a worry as
well, the air collisions,
Dave Rogers (14:02):
the main thing do you have because drone is just
such a broad term these days,isn't it? You can you can go to
our gas and buy a drone for 100quid or you can be the, I don't
know the US Air Force usingdrones to cause all kinds of
things. So if you read aheadline that says drones at an
airport, that could mean anynumber of things. Have you ever
(14:24):
sort of had a close call withone banner? Have you ever
spotted one from any of theplanes you've flown?
Ben Hall (14:30):
Yeah, I've had a couple of I mean, not super
close calls. It's not like I'mdodging them. But when I did do
the private jet work down inBournemouth, we quite often used
to fly home, sort of down thecoast at not particularly high
altitudes. I mean, I'm not sortof scared running at this point,
but at sort of one to 2000 feetwhere the drones are not meant
(14:55):
to be flying but I've had acouple of times where, you know,
they're not very big, but At thepoint where you can see them,
you know, they're too close forcomfort. So I've had it a few
times down, sort of the southcoast of England.
Dave Rogers (15:10):
Right? What I'm really interested in here is
what happens after an articlelike this gets released because
I saw a picture of you, you werevery proud of it. You were
holding the newspaper and seethe byline and everything. And
but but what kind of response doyou get? And is it is it a
personal response to people getin touch with you afterwards to
(15:30):
either congratulate you or theopposite as social media tends
to be these days?
Samira Shackle (15:37):
Yeah, when something has a big reach like
that, and obviously chimed withlots of people, I think because
it was this sort of mystery thatlots of people were were curious
about, obviously, get lots ofcomments on social media, and
had some people emailing me,spending broadly pretty positive
(15:58):
response to this piece actually.
haven't really had strangersshouting at me on the internet,
had a few people on the firstday, and sort of complaining
that I said, I'd had funreporting it and say, Well, I
didn't have fun when my flightwas delayed. You know, whatever.
My flight was delayed to getover it, pal. I've had some some
(16:20):
people who are people who arevery up in arms that I didn't
investigate the possibility thatit was UFOs or aliens. And I was
gonna ask about this actually.
Ben Hall (16:40):
Tin hat brigade coming out. Yeah.
Samira Shackle (16:42):
Oh, yeah. I love it. I love it.
I've had a good few, quite longemails about that. And some
tweets as well.
Dave Rogers (16:52):
When they get in touch, then do they offer you
any evidence or any alternativesto what you've reported? Or is
it quite simply, this was UFOs.
Or you should have investigatedUFOs. Sorry to put on my
psychopaths voice there. But,you know,
Samira Shackle (17:07):
well, I had one.
I had a couple of quite quitesort of plaintive sounding
tweets that were like, well, hecould have at least looked at,
you know, in something of thatlength, he could have at least
considered whether it was UFOsand an email a couple of emails,
like pointing me towards somedocumentaries about UFOs that
are available online. Yeah, butthere's obviously not like clear
(17:29):
new information to offer thatmakes it more likely that it's
UFOs. I think, from speaking tosome of the, the sort of amateur
sleuth drone hobbyists who Iinterviewed with a piece some of
them have had some tips about,about the drones and more people
who've got photos from theevening and cross referencing
timestamps and that kind ofthing. So there's a bit a bit of
(17:51):
activity there, which is quitefun.
Dave Rogers (17:56):
The truth is out there.
Samira Shackle (17:57):
Yeah. Hopefully.
Dave Rogers (18:01):
The UFO stuff is is amazing, because it's only UFOs.
And that and that sort ofsubculture for it's completely
passed me by I don't knowanything about it. Isn't? Is the
aviation world full of it. Ben,do you get people getting in
touch all the time, I don't seeany UFO is good.
Ben Hall (18:21):
I've never had it at all. I've heard of sort of the
occasional fighter pilot hereand there. And occasionally
airline pilot who kind of recallseeing something a bit weird.
But you know, when you're whenyou're flying in the cockpit,
and you, you know, it's themiddle of the night and you've
been flying for the last 14hours or something. Your eyes
(18:42):
can play tricks on you very,very easily. I mean, there's
lots of sort of physiologicaleffects that you get trained
for. For example, there's onewhere if you stare at a
stationary light for too long,it looks like it starts moving
Samira Shackle (18:55):
really well.
Okay.
Ben Hall (18:57):
And there's lots of little ones like that. So I
said, I mean, I'm not aconspiracy theorist at all. So I
suspect, anybody that sees stufflike that is just these, either
your mind playing tricks onyour, you know, lens flare, or,
you know, whatever.
Dave Rogers (19:12):
And I suppose in its broadest sense, a UFO is
simply an unidentified flyingobject. It's something that you
you don't know what it is, itdoesn't necessarily mean that
it's aliens or so. I suppose. Isuppose in its broadest sense,
these drones are UFOs or is thata stress?
Samira Shackle (19:30):
bozo? Yeah.
Yeah. in that, in that broaddefinition, and it's interesting
to hear you talk about that,that and the kind of the way
that your eyes play tricks onyou, because that's something
that definitely came up a lot inmy reporting. And I think was
one of the flaws with the policeinvestigation into the drone
sightings was the the the kindof foundation of the evidence
(19:53):
and of the investigation was ifpeople if any sightings were
Could be cross referenced witheach other. So if people had
kind of cited the same thing,but that doesn't really account
for the fact that our eyes canbe quite bad at identifying what
something is, especially if thelight is not great, especially
if it's far away and and so on.
(20:15):
So actually just you know,several people seeing a light in
the sky doesn't mean that thatlight in the sky is a drone.
And, you know, there's a wholekind of whole thing about once
you're really training yourattention on something in a way
that you're not normally you,you put a lot of, you might put
more weight on somethinginnocuous that was there all
(20:36):
along, but you're suddenlyseeing so it actually turned out
that one cluster of sightingswhich had been initially
clusters credible, they turnedout to have been a black a light
on a crane. And did you knowlots of people had seen it was
high up and seem far away. Andit's a kind of you can see how
that would happen. Kind ofoptical illusion, much like
Eddie the photographer, taking apicture and then loading it up
(20:58):
and realising it's actually ahelicopter. They must have been
devastated. He was like on hisway to sending it sending it off
to his editors, and I thinkwould have made us he was
thinking he was thinking about anew car a lot extension. Yeah,
he's
Ben Hall (21:13):
already planning this holiday.
Dave Rogers (21:16):
My favourite sentence in the whole piece was
they weren't in fact, the idiotsthat ruined Christmas. Yeah.
Those poor people.
Samira Shackle (21:27):
Yeah, they had a horrible time. Yes, that was
Paul, Paul gate and Elaine Kirkare a couple who lived in
Crawley a couple of miles awayfrom the airport. And they were
not only arrested, I mean, theyhad 12 armed police officers
descend on their house, which iscrazy. And they were then their
(21:47):
names were leaked to the press.
And they were everywhere. And asyou say, on a very memorable
front page in the mail, theirphotos and the headline Are
these the morons who ruinedChristmas. And it turned out not
only were they at work, whilethe while the sightings were
happening. They didn't even havea drone. He was oh my goodness.
He was a model aircraftenthusiast, but they didn't have
didn't have drones. So when theysend
Ben Hall (22:10):
like armed police there was there was well, when
there was the threat of it mightbe a terrorist risk and stuff.
Samira Shackle (22:15):
Well, no, they ruled out the terrorist risk
while the while it was stillgoing on. So I don't really know
what the rationale is forsending armed police officers. I
guess that this was about a dayor so after it had all stopped.
And I think there was kind ofanxiety that it was like a
sophisticated and maliciousattack. And maybe there was some
(22:36):
involvement of organised crimeor some kind of nefarious aim.
But, you know, seem seems kindof crazy, really to storm in
like that.
Dave Rogers (22:46):
Absolutely. I've been just terrifying as well,
because even if they've beenable to do enough of a
background check on those peopleto know that they're just a
married couple who live in amodest house.
Samira Shackle (22:59):
Yeah, yeah, he was a window fitter than a
soldier. Just piping had a loadof model aircrafts and model
helicopters and things likethat. But yeah, we think the
worst thing for them, it seemsas their their names being
leaked. So they got got a bigpayout from the police for
wrongful arrest in June, thisyear. Or shall I say in June
(23:24):
2020. Because it's going outnext year.
Dave Rogers (23:27):
Sorry, the magic of podcasting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So
Samira Shackle (23:31):
yeah, so they got a big payout for wrongful
arrest from Sussex police inJune 2020. And, you know,
they're their identities are outthere and they can't really do
anything about that. And they'reoften referred to as the Gatwick
couple. And you know, it's notnot great for them. They didn't
ask for any of that attention.
Ben Hall (23:46):
No tarnished. The name is tarnished for life, isn't it?
Samira Shackle (23:50):
Yeah. Yeah. It kind of comes up forever on your
Google searches, doesn't
Dave Rogers (23:53):
it? infamy isn't the friend of many people. Is it
but you know, good. Good luck tothem. Hopefully they can. I
don't know. Just Just be happy.
What a terrible experience forus to go through. Oh,
Samira Shackle (24:05):
yeah. Yeah, seems like from Yeah, from
talking to people from the localarea, like just people who had
drones and model aircraft andlive near Gatwick. Got ya got a
call?
Dave Rogers (24:18):
You talked about the sort of amateur sleuths and
the and the drone enthusiasts,it was Ian Hudson. He was the
sort of ringleader of those wasme. They did some pretty good
work by the looks of things.
Samira Shackle (24:31):
Yeah, yeah, they did in had done lots and lots of
Freedom of Information requests.
And those are for anyone notfamiliar, pretty arduous
process. So under the Freedom ofInformation Act, public bodies
have to sort of respond to theserequests for freedom of
information, which anyone cancan put in. So it's not just
(24:53):
journalists or organisations anycitizen can can request but the
wild public is obligated toanswer they've, they've got
quite a lot of leeway to get outof giving the information. So
they can say it will want someof the most common ones, they
can say it will take too long toget this information for you. So
(25:16):
it's not kind of reasonablerequest in terms of the manpower
it will take. Or they can sayit's a national security risk,
or, or so on. So that normallyget some kind of refusal. And
it's they have to respond withinI think it's 28 days or
something like that. And so it'soften a bit of a process like
they might say, not be able togive you all the information. So
(25:38):
you give you part of it, thenyou refine, go back with a more
refined and more specificquestion and use that to find
out what documents they've got.
And then you can request thedocuments. So it can take
months, something thatinvestigative journalists do a
lot but people working on onlonger deadlines can't do and
Ian had just been kind of offhis own steam, filing Freedom of
(25:58):
Information requests. So he'dbeen finding them started off
sort of generally around drones,and wanting to show that, that
fears about drone technology areoverstated. And that while there
are these kind of high profilecases where they've been used to
take contraband into prisons, orwhatever it is that they that
(26:19):
that's actually quite where andthere aren't really that many
kind of legal cases and arrestsand prosecutions actually
brought over drone misuse. So hewas already kind of in the habit
of it and then following theGatwick stuff, he sort of felt
that there were discrepanciesand as lots of people did, I
think watching it that it didn'tall quite make sense. So he
started Yeah, started filing flyto Sussex police and the
(26:43):
Department for Transport andeven the Civil Aviation
Authority as well, I thinkgetting getting mixed results.
So yeah, what he found on theothers filing fly is is that
Sussex police in particular justreally really unresponsive.
Dave Rogers (26:57):
I love it when enthusiasts about anything, get
the bit between their teeth,when they feel as though the
thing that they love is beinggiven a hard time. So whether
it's him with the drones, orpeople with a with a particular
passion for certain animals,like there was that that what's
the what's the name of the fellafrom ease in love, actually, and
(27:21):
he's in taken Liam Neeson andhe's in if he's in a film where
he has fistfights with wolves,have you ever seen it know what
it's called, although fistfights with Wolves would be a
great sign. So and a lot of wolfenthusiasts are like, this is
completely unfair. Wolves aregreat kinda animals, and they go
out of their way to prove thatand there was the there was the
(27:41):
whole thing with when SteveIrwin got killed by the Stingray
as well. Well, now we'repainting sting rays in a bad
light. They're fantastic animalsor whatever, I like people with
a, with a genuine passion goingout of their way to sort of
prove that what they love isn't,isn't an evil thing. So quick
questions here, both with all ofthe terrible things that drones
(28:03):
do like dropping off drugs inprisons, and being doctored. So
they can drop grenades, and ofcourse, all of the military
stuff. And there are greatthings as well. So they can be
used to drop off medicines, andyou've got people using them to
save money by looking at damagedroofs. If you could use a drone
for good. What would you use itfor?
Ben Hall (28:26):
Who's first? No. I've got a good one, actually. So
I've got quite a few friends inSouth Africa. And they use
drones really effectively topatrol perimeters of game
reserves and stuff.
Samira Shackle (28:42):
Nice.
Ben Hall (28:43):
Yeah, so they can and they can also track the animals
with them a lot more efficientlythan if I did it in person. So I
really like applications likethat.
Dave Rogers (28:51):
Yeah, use them to catch poachers. Yeah, good
Samira Shackle (28:55):
one. Yeah, that's a really good one using
the kind of camera technology. Ithink a good ones kind of a
classic, which is that they canbe used really effectively, like
in wildfires, or in any kind ofbig fire. So just kind of going
over and above and surveying.
surveying the situation and justsort of making sure they're
(29:16):
making sure they're safe. Andusing that to inform rescue
missions. Think that's probablylike a really good use of
drones, which you could probablysee more of, sadly, as we're
likely to get more things likewildfires.
Dave Rogers (29:29):
Hashtag drones for good.
Samira Shackle (29:32):
Yeah, well, people who people who are into
drones are really into them andthe kind of positive
applications. You've seen themused to, like get medicines to
hard to reach areas and thatkind of stuff as well. But I
mean, do you think all of thatsaid most people like them
because they take really coolphotos?
Dave Rogers (29:51):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. They're a toy that you
can spend money on.
Ben Hall (29:55):
I own a drone actually, was just a small one.
Just a little hobbyist one.
Okay, and actually I don't useit that often but it is a great
bit of kit.
Dave Rogers (30:06):
You can't use it to record the podcast it be too
noisy.
Samira Shackle (30:09):
Yeah. A really hum
Ben Hall (30:13):
some lovely, lovely footage from it.
Dave Rogers (30:16):
Okay, well, I look forward to the pilot base
YouTube channel with all of youyour great drone footage
Ben Hall (30:23):
with that as well, so the footage isn't great.
Dave Rogers (30:25):
Oh my god, are you telling me an actual pilot can't
fly a drone? Please put Yeah,when
Ben Hall (30:31):
I was growing up, I wasn't I never really used
computer games that much orremote control cars. So it's a
little bit of a different skillset to be honest.
Dave Rogers (30:40):
If at any point, you get on a flight in the next
few years, and you're here. Goodafternoon, everyone. This is
your captain speaking BenjaminHall just chill just just for
the duration of the flight.
Ben Hall (30:55):
So I don't know if you guys have seen recently, but I
think it was in October I saw itin the news that there was an
aircraft coming into lax. Sothis is one of the busiest
international airports in theworld. And they record reported
a man flying in a jet pack up6000 feet. Oh, yes. A lot just
(31:16):
hovering around the ground. Theywere four to 6000 feet.
Samira Shackle (31:22):
Oh my god. Yes.
Wow.
Ben Hall (31:25):
It's not a drone. But I think if you're impacted man
in a jet suit, you're gonna havesome problems
Samira Shackle (31:29):
for both of you are gonna he's gonna have some
problems. That is terrifying.
Can you imagine? Yeah,
Ben Hall (31:36):
I mean, I've seen a few guys that are kind of
creating jet pack kind of kits.
I mean, there's a there's areally cool application in the
UK. There's a guy called Richardbrowning, who owns gravity, Inc.
So basically, he connects littlejet engines to his arms. And
he's using them for sort ofsearch and rescue mission fins
and helping out in the militaryand stuff. So that's
Samira Shackle (31:57):
growl.
Ben Hall (31:58):
I think there's also some hobbyists who have
basically strapped a jet engineto their back popped a little
wing on their body and go flyingaround a little bit.
Samira Shackle (32:10):
dangerous.
Ben Hall (32:12):
Yeah, like ridiculously dangerous. If
you're gonna go and do that headout into the desert where
there's no aircraft in sight.
Just go to an app, and just riskyour own life. Not not 500
people on there.
Dave Rogers (32:24):
Oh, my goodness. Do you know what the what the
repercussions were in terms oflegality?
Ben Hall (32:30):
Well, they're definitely not allowed to be
flying around. at 6000 feet nearan airport. That's 100%. But I
don't think they ever caught thebloke and I think there's been a
few different sightings as well.
So I don't think it's a one offevent.
Dave Rogers (32:43):
Which you are this a cat look. Welcome. Yes, behind
you. Would you would you ever goat that severe would you?
strategy? Absolutely not. I'm
Samira Shackle (32:54):
a huge coward. I can barely even ride a bike.
Dave Rogers (32:57):
A ban.
Ben Hall (32:59):
Ah, not not a 6000 feet I wouldn't.
Dave Rogers (33:03):
I've got another close to the ground. I've got
another friend who's a pilot.
And this isn't one of the I'vegot another friend when it's
actually you, Ben. But I've gotanother friend who who is a
pilot in the forces. And on astag do we went on a gorge walk?
And there was a 20 foot cliffjump that he wouldn't do. So he
flies 25 3035 40,000 feet in theair, but wouldn't jump 20 feet
(33:29):
into water. Human beings a verygood Oh, well, right then
Sameera, we've, we've kept youfor a long time. But I'm going
to keep you for a little bitlonger. Because now I'd like to
blow some sunshine up yourbackside. Let's talk numbers
because I've congratulated youon the success. But in the first
(33:51):
week, there were hundreds of1000s of views and reads on this
article. Can you say exactly howmany?
Samira Shackle (34:03):
Yeah, well, in the first 24 hours that it was
up, it was getting on for half amillion, which was amazing. I
think. I don't know how it'sbeen done since then. But it was
a really big, big numbers hit soyeah, I guess people, people
like drones or maybe people likemysteries. I was that.
Dave Rogers (34:22):
Was that just online? Or was that with a
circulation of money that
Samira Shackle (34:24):
was just that was just online. So plus the
circulation of the newspaper,which I'm not sure exactly where
the circulation of the newspaperis now. But yeah, there's a lot
of a lot of interest.
Dave Rogers (34:33):
salutely absolutely amazing. And I know you you
regularly write for for TheGuardian, among many other
things, and I don't necessarilywant you to give me the numbers
of other things that you'vewritten. But this is higher than
previous articles. Yeah,
Samira Shackle (34:50):
definitely. I mean, I don't normally get the
numbers as a freelancer and thiswas was sort of significant
enough to get kind of excited.
Ah, how many numbers? This isSo, as you know, I had a sense
from from Twitter. But that'snot always the two things don't
always necessarily go together,you might get lots of noise
about something on social mediawithout it translating into that
(35:11):
many readers, especially forsuch a big long thing.
Dave Rogers (35:17):
I love Twitter, but it is the ultimate false
equivalence, isn't it?
Samira Shackle (35:21):
Yes, actually, I got some good messages, got some
good messages saying, goodarticle, but a bit long, which
is funny, since it's called thelong read.
Dave Rogers (35:32):
So give us an idea of exactly how long a long read
takes from inception and initialideas to publication.
Samira Shackle (35:42):
It's pretty slow process, actually. And that's
partly because of doing itaround other things. But at
least a few months. And I thinkfor this, it's probably getting
on for six months with somegaps, you know, like doing other
things for for quite longspells. I mean, if I kind of
compressed it all, it would havebeen quicker. But that's, you
(36:04):
know, when you want to dosomething that's in depth, you
really want to the thing thatmakes it different is really
trying to talk to everyone thatyou can and just kind of getting
hold of all those differentpeople. And all of that can
just, it's just quite timeconsuming. That's the really
kind of unglamorous bit justsending lots of kind of messages
(36:25):
and emails and calling peopleand trying to get people to talk
to you. And then there's thewhole kind of writing it and
being edited to have quite anintensive editing process. just
good for something of thatlength. You want it to have a
real kind of narrative. be easyto read. It's well
Dave Rogers (36:41):
worth it. Yeah.
Samira Shackle (36:43):
Yeah, definitely. I enjoy it. I find
it very satisfying. Good. Yeah,it's fun.
Dave Rogers (36:47):
Well, I certainly I did. Yeah. I thought it was
absolutely fantastic. Well,let's talk about sort of you and
other projects you've got so interms of your career, if I've
left anything out or addedanything in just just correct me
now I've got writer, journalist,editor of the New humanist,
documentarian, and a word that Idon't like, but I have to use
(37:10):
podcaster. What if I, what if Iadded or miss there? If I just
Samira Shackle (37:18):
nailed it? I think you got everything. Yeah.
documentarians. quite generous,because I've only made one
documentary. But you know, I'lltake it. Oh, that counts.
Dave Rogers (37:26):
What would you call somebody who's only made one
documentary? And how manydocumentaries Do you have to
have made to be it?
Samira Shackle (37:33):
I'll take it.
Dave Rogers (37:35):
But that was, that was a success, too, wasn't it?
But I don't want to talk aboutthat. today. I want to talk
about things that are fresh andnew and exciting. So I'm going
to toss a coin in the air heads,we talk podcast tails, we talk
book heads or tails. Heads.
What's that podcast?
Samira Shackle (37:53):
I don't remember.
Dave Rogers (37:57):
So as editor of the New humanist, you have cooked up
a new podcast project. I've gotexploring faith and fraternity,
intimacy and technology, charityand virtue, black feminism, race
and belonging, work and desirein late capitalism. So Ben, I
don't think we're getting thecall to be guests on that one in
(38:18):
particular. But sounds like anamazing new project taught me
taught me through that.
Samira Shackle (38:25):
Yeah, so the those are the themes that you
just read off for the kind ofareas and the different episodes
we're exploring. So our taglineis intelligent thinking in
turbulent times, the name of thepodcast is with reason. And it's
basically just a space for newresearch and thinkers. So the
(38:45):
kind of simplest elevator pitch,I guess, is having a really
detailed conversation withsomeone who's done loads of
research about an interestingthing, and just getting them to
tell us about the interestingthing that they know loads
about. And so it's been reallyinteresting. It's quite Yeah,
quite a wide variety. We've gotpeople talking about, like,
(39:05):
charity, and he talks aboutstuff from, from the kind of
poppy appeal and clap for carersand right through to the more
kind of theoretical ways that werelate to charity. got someone
talking about the future of sextech and sex robots and machines
that can give you a hug. Andyeah, just a really big range.
(39:28):
So it's been, it's been greatfun. We've done an initial
series of six episodes and beputting out another series next
year. Hopefully,
Dave Rogers (39:35):
I'm so glad you said give you a hug, then. Also,
intelligent thinking inturbulent times would have been
such a good tagline for thispodcast, Ben. Yeah.
But did you enjoy the process ofmaking it? Yeah,
Samira Shackle (39:57):
yeah. It was quite new for me doing a
podcast. Yeah, it's fun kind ofthinking. thinking a bit
differently. Working in adifferent medium. Kind of
interesting learning how to dothat in the middle of a pandemic
when you're at home and not in astudio.
Dave Rogers (40:17):
Sounds very familiar. Yeah. Is that
available for subscribers of newhumans available to
Samira Shackle (40:26):
everyone? It's on every every podcast app. It's
on Spotify. It's free. There aresubscription offers for
neohumanist on the podcast, butyou don't have to subscribe to
to listen.
Dave Rogers (40:35):
Awesome. I very much hoping that people have
listened to you today. And I'llbe straight on that. Because if
it's anywhere near asinteresting as this chat we, I
mean, I can't wait to have tohave a good listen. And Bobby
straight on it. So great. You'vegot broadcasts to do with us
first, may you you wind yourneck. Oh, yeah. Karachi vice?
Samira Shackle (40:58):
Yes, yeah. So that's my book. That's actually
what I was researching when Igot stuck on the plane circling
over Gatwick. 2018. So fullcircle in this conversation. And
yeah, that's my first book,which is coming out on the
fourth of February. And it is anonfiction book about Pakistan's
(41:19):
largest city. And it kind oftells the story of different
urban conflicts in the citythrough human stories. That's a
close focus on five ordinarypeople who've lived through this
really crazy period of violence,and political upheaval, and so
on. And just kind of, I wentinto a lot of detail with these
five amazing people who werevery patient about having lots
(41:43):
and lots of questions asked andhaving me follow them around.
And kind of just just told theirtheir stories unfolded in the
wider political changes inPakistan. And around that. So
yeah, that will be out inFebruary, it was quite strange,
and you have something living inyour head for years,
Dave Rogers (42:03):
you must get such a huge amount of satisfaction from
the vast majority of your work.
Samira Shackle (42:09):
Yes, yeah, I really enjoy it. It's great.
Just getting to as with thepodcast, and also with the book
in different ways, just gettinggetting interesting people to
tell me lots of things, it'sreally good. That's the best
part of it.
Dave Rogers (42:23):
Just just talking about the people, you you follow
around there. And you weresaying that you that you asked
them a lot of questions, andthat you had to spend a lot of
time with them. Do you ever? Andthis is a strange question, but
it's sort of on purpose. Do youever feel guilty about taking
people's time even though it'sfor a grater goes at a great
(42:43):
project and something that'sgoing to be brilliant, and? And
hopefully last a long timebeyond you them?
Samira Shackle (42:51):
Yeah, I think so. And definitely, with
something like a book where youreally do if you're kind of
reconstructing someone'sexperiences for the last 10
years through interviews, youreally do have to interview them
a lot to make that accurate anda lot of time for them. And
you're probably not going to usea lot of what you get from the
interview. They don't have anykind of clear benefit to doing
(43:14):
it really, it's not like they'regetting paid or they immediately
become famous, or you know whatI mean, they don't have any
clear benefits I definitelyconscious of of people's time
that they're giving the I justtried to be kind of
accommodating and respectful.
And yeah, respect people'sboundaries, really. But yeah,
I'm definitely aware of it.
(43:36):
Good.
Dave Rogers (43:37):
And are there any future projects, long reads
books, films that we can lookforward to any ideas that you
cooking up?
Samira Shackle (43:46):
At the moment, I just want to sleep for a long
time is a year.
But hopefully some more ideassoon. It makes me think of a
fighter told you this already,Dave but I did. I went to a
careers fair at my old school.
And they kind of they set you upin like this sort of like a
speed dating thing. And theycould see like, oh, there's a
(44:08):
journalist, there's a lawyer andthey could come and sit down and
ask questions. Most of them werejust asking, oh, what a levels
do I need to do if I want to bea journalist or whatever, and
one girl came and she said, herfirst question was, how much
creative freedom have you got? Iwas like, quite a lot. You know,
I come up with all the ideas ofthe stuff I do blah, blah, blah.
And her second question. Andlast question was, what are you
(44:29):
going to do if the ideas stop?
Dave Rogers (44:35):
I'm actually just going to spiral into existential
dread now, so thank you have agreat evening.
Samira Shackle (44:40):
Yeah. Oh, my
Dave Rogers (44:41):
God.
Samira Shackle (44:45):
subconscious is that you
Dave Rogers (44:49):
know, no, it's not a person or a mirror. Ah. And
then they just moved on.
Fantastic. That was it.
Samira Shackle (44:57):
Yeah. She didn't have any further questions.
Dave Rogers (45:00):
16
Samira Shackle (45:01):
Yeah, 17 tops.
Dave Rogers (45:02):
Ah, amazing. I'd love for you to catch up with
her in tears. Well, what doeshappen if the idea stop? Don't
answer that I've got. I've gotone final question before we say
thank you to Samira ban. Haveyou got any?
Ben Hall (45:22):
No, I've just got a little detachably. That just
reminded me when you're talkingabout Karachi vice, and when I
worked at the Middle East, Iused to fly into Pakistan quite
frequently, it was justreturning around so we didn't
get to stay over. But I alwayshoped you'd have a really good
memory because you would landall the passengers would
disembark and then the groundcrew Come on, and the engineers
(45:42):
would sort of fix everything upand you'll get refuelled and
then all of the staff, it musthave been sort of 50 per turn
around, would line up in frontof your aircraft and salute you
as you push back.
Samira Shackle (45:55):
Really?
Ben Hall (45:56):
Yeah, it's the only place in the world I've ever
seen. It's like a really nicetouch though. Because usually, I
mean, the engineers and stuffare so busy that i'll come on
your plane, fix something and gostraight to the next one. Huh,
but just happens to be inPakistan. You just get this
really nice send off every time.
Samira Shackle (46:12):
Oh, nice.
Dave Rogers (46:13):
That's really nice.
Really, really nice. Okay, asSamir, thank you so much. This
has been such a brilliant,brilliant chat. And it's it's
nice. It's nice to chat to yousort of professionally about
work because I'm fascinated byby what you do and keep doing a
brilliant job. Essentially. God,I hope the ideas keep coming. If
not, you've got a lovely cat.
Samira Shackle (46:37):
So She's good.
She's a good girl.
Dave Rogers (46:40):
Okay, final question. Ben. You get to answer
this first. Samira. You've got abit more time to think about it
even though I think you've gotan answer for it already. Was
there a drone Yes or no? Yes.
Samira.
Samira Shackle (46:57):
Oh, I'm a reporter. I'm gonna say on the
balance of probabilities. No. Ormaybe I should say that there
isn't much evidence for Yes.
Dave Rogers (47:11):
Very journalistic answer, which means you'll
probably be getting victoryagain. Yeah. Samir, thank you so
much. This has been absolutelybrilliant look after yourself.
Samira Shackle (47:21):
Cool. Thanks for having me.
Ben Hall (47:24):
Thanks for listening to the pilot based podcast.
We'll be back next week withanother great guest from the
aviation industry. Don't forgetto check out our new career
platform at pilot base COMM Andall the socials at pilot base
HQ. If you enjoyed this podcast,don't forget to subscribe and
write this review
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