Episode 34: The Selection: The Canadian Forces Aircrew Selection Test Part 1 - Dave

All RCAF pilots must pass through the Canadian Forces Aircrew Selection Centre (CFASC) - but what does it take to make it through? We sat down with Dave Chamberlin, former CO of CFASC, to find out exactly that - and much more! Dave has a multitude of experience, having flown and taught on the CT-155 Hawk and the CF-188 Hornet, as well as the CC-130J Hercules. Join us today for part 1 of our 2 part series on Aircrew Selection!

Links:
https://www.canada.ca/en/air-force/services/training-education/canadian-forces-aircrew-selection-centre/joining-instructions.html

Episode Transcript

Bryan (00:00):
Hey, folks. This is your host, Brian Morrison. I just had
a couple points for you beforethis show starts. First of all,
you may remember that we hadteased that the next episode
would be with Ben, a formerspecial operations forces
operator. However, to makethings fit with Remembrance Day,
we've chosen instead to air thisnext episode, which will be a 2
parter, and then we will airBen's episode after Remembrance

(00:22):
Day.
The second thing I'd like to sayis today, our audio for the
guest starts out a little roughfor the first about 30 minutes.
We ask that you hang in therebecause it is still a great
discussion. Without further ado,here is the episode.

(01:04):
left. Alright. We're ready fordeparture here at the Pilot
Project Podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from the
pilots of the RCAF. I'm yourhost, Brian Morrison. With me
today is former CEO of theCanadian Forces Air Crew
Selection Centre, DaveChamberlain.
Dave, welcome to the show, andthanks so much for being here.

Dave (01:19):
Thank you, Brian.

Bryan (01:20):
Before we start, let's go over Dave's bio. Dave was born
and raised in the Orleans suburbof Ottawa. He joined Air Cadets
at 12 and, through cadets, got aglider pilot license at 16 in
1997 in Comox, BC. He didprivate pilot scholarship in
1998 in Saint Jean, Quebec. Andfor our Canadian Forces
listeners, yes, this was rightby the mega.
He flew in a local club inOttawa for the rest of high

(01:42):
school. In 2000 to 2003, Davedid the Sioux College Aviation
Technology program and left witha commercial multi IFR pilot
license. Dave joined theCanadian Forces in 2004 through
the CEOTP program or continuededucation officer training plan.
He skipped phase 1 due to hisflight experience. He did phase
2 alpha in Moose Jaw in thespring and summer of 2006 and

(02:04):
phase 2 bravo through the fall.
Dave completed phase 3 on theHawk in the winter and summer of
2007. He completed phase 4 inlate summer 2007 to February
2008. Dave went on to completethe fighter pilot course in June
2009 and was posted to 4 0 9Tactical Fighter Squadron on the
CF 18 from 2,009 to 2,011,mainly flying Northern

(02:25):
sovereignty and quick reactionalert or QRA. Dave flew for op
podium during the VancouverOlympics in 2010. He was then
posted to 419 Tactical FighterTraining Squadron on the Hawk as
an instructor pilot in 2,011.
In 2015, Dave was posted toTrenton where he worked wing ops
for about 2 years until apromotion and posting to 436
transport squadron on the c one30 j in 2017. In 2019, he

(02:49):
deployed the op presence inDakar as the detachment
commander for about 4 months. In2020, he was posted to 426
transport training squadron tobe the tactical training flight
commander for the c one 30 joperational training unit. In
2022, Dave was posted to CFASCor Canadian Forces Air Crew
Selection Center as the CO. Nowin 2024, he is freshly posted

(03:11):
back to 436 Transport Squadronas director of operations, which
is a unique position due to thesize of the squadron where he
supervises the currentoperations officer, plans
officer, training officer, andscheduling.
Today, we'll talk about Dave'scareer a little bit, then we'll
get into some questions aboutaircrew selection. We'll cover
questions the audience,particularly on Reddit asked, as
well as some FAQs that Dave andthe folks at the selection

(03:31):
center get asked fairly often.So let's start with the standard
question. Where did aviationstart for you?

Dave (03:38):
I mean, definitely, my my earlier year is kinda hard to
push. I don't know exactly whenit was sort of the thing I
wanted to do for a living, but,I got a couple of opportunities
as a young kid, specifically oneto just go for a a flight in a
in a light Cessna airplane. AndI was always about 11 or 12
years old, and, I told myparents how much I enjoyed it,
and I kinda thought that's whatI maybe wanted to do. And I

(04:01):
guess they did a little bit ofresearch and found out about air
cadets and suggested that, maybethat's something I would wanna
try. So I did.
Signed up for air cadets rightwhen I was 12 years old and took
off from there.

Bryan (04:13):
It's a super common story on this show that I would say
the majority of my guestsstarted in air cadets, and I did
as well. I I joined when I was14 years old, and it's such a
great program. I just can'tbelieve that there's still a
program in Canada where you cango and get your pilot's license
for free. It's such a amazingopportunity.

Dave (04:31):
It is. I think if we look at it, though, from the d and d
sort of military side, I don'tknow that they even invest
enough. I think it's, it's agood bang for for their buck in
terms of the number of dollarsthat get put into the cadet
program. And then as you say, alot of your guests, turn around
and end up joining CAF. And Andeven those who don't, they they

(04:51):
get a lot of, valuable sort ofleadership, citizenship,
background, things that they'llbring forward into the economy.
I just think it's a it's abeneficial youth program no
matter whether somebody ends upultimately joining CAF, whether
as a pilot or not, or whetherthey just take that, that good
experience and just use it tobe, maybe more more productive

(05:12):
and more successful people thatstart their lives.

Bryan (05:15):
I totally agree. Like, it's officially not a recruiting
tool, of course, but itessentially acts as an
unofficial recruiting tool. Andwhat you're getting out of that
is somebody who already has allthe basic skills. They're gonna
need to do well in basictraining. They basically have a
leg up in, you know, all thoselittle things that make life a
little more stressful when youfirst get there, even right down
to, you know, ironing youruniform, knowing how to do

(05:38):
drill, knowing how to make a bedproperly, all those little
things.
And, of course, if you get yourflight experience and then you
join as a pilot, you have thatlittle leg up for you both from
your air cadet experience aswell as your flight college
experience. So, yeah, I agree.How did you find your flight
training experience in theforces? And did you find your

(05:59):
previous experience gave you aleg up over your peers, or did
they catch you fairly quickly?

Dave (06:03):
There's no doubt I benefited from all my previous
flying experience, whether itwould be through the cadet
program. For all that, it's justa civilian, private pilot's
license at the end of the day.Because of the way the program
is structured even at that sortof ab initio level, there's
still a performance grade onevery flight you do. And unlike,
say, if you showed up to flyingclub and paid for your own
flying training where you couldjust essentially keep pumping

(06:27):
dollars in until you weresuccessful. With the cadet
programs, you are held to acertain progress standard.
And if you don't make it withinthe time, they have a lot of
it's sort of an upper out. So itgets you used to that mindset
of, you know, every flight is anopportunity to learn, but it's
also you're also beingevaluated. And there is
performance expectation. So Ithink it teaches you and
motivates you to show upprepared all the time. Pay

(06:48):
attention to debriefs, get theinformation you can from a
debrief so you show up for thenext flight better prepared.
And that actually carried oninto the Sioux College program
that I did where, again, it wasactually graded the same way as
we grade in the, the class whereit's a 1 to 5 performance scale,
5 being essentially perfect,perfectly performed with no, no
significant errors. To, youknow, one being you couldn't do

(07:09):
it under any circumstances sortof deal, but created the same
way. So, again, it gets used tothat sort of formal, almost
rigid way of thinking aboutgoing into a little lesson,
extremely well prepared for whatyou're going to be doing that
day, and then formally debriefedwith, hopefully, some root cause
identified. And, it teaches youthat cycle of, you know, take

(07:31):
the debrief, use it for yournext flight, arms you with
questions for the next briefing.So that that definitely gets you
into that mindset.
And then, of course, showing upto Moose Jaw, even though I
bypassed phase 1. Showing up toMoose Jaw, I already had the
commercial, the multi engine,the IFR training, and a lot of
what you do in Moose Jaw priorto talking about phase 2 bravo

(07:52):
at the time. But prior to beingstreamed into either
helicopters, transport, or jets,A lot of what you're doing is
sort of that clear hose, thatbasic VFR flying or that IFR
flying and having done a fairamount of both. It was
definitely beneficial because itmeant that a lot of background
knowledge, the IFR rules, andeverything are the same. The
basic techniques of the crosscheck and everything else you're
gonna be doing, essentially thesame.

(08:13):
So I'd like to think that it'sjust, you know, awesome, but,
there's no doubt I benefitedfrom all that, all that
experience I got before, and Iwas fortunate to get all that
experience before, allsubsidized. So a number of new
programs like the Sault Collegeprogram where you just pay your
basic college tuition, andessentially the flying is free
as long as you perform. So nodoubt a huge benefit at public

(08:36):
expense for me, but, I've paidit back now that's served as
long as I have.

Bryan (08:41):
Yeah. Definitely. Did you notice that there was, like, a
significant difference when youstarted phase 2 between you and
your peers?

Dave (08:48):
Yeah. Not just me, but I think so at the time, at least,
phase 1 bypass was granted toanyone who had graduated one of
these sort of governmentsubsidized and overseeing
college programs. Because Ithink historically, they had
shown that, you know, it justwasn't necessary because we were
that much better prepared. Soeveryone who came from all those
college programs wasn't aboutthe same boat I was. We're

(09:09):
there, you know, what's goingon.
Already had a fair amount ofexperience in that formal flying
setting. I already had a goodunderstanding of BIFAR rules and
all the things that, you know,you're expecting to pick up on
phase 2. So there was definitelya little bit of a delta, and it
allowed us to sort of help outsome of the other folks who are
going through it at the sametime, help them with some
engineering and stuff. And thenby sort of tutoring or helping

(09:33):
people study at night, you pickup a lot yourself that maybe you
didn't know why it's best. Like,teaching is one of the best ways
to reinforce your ownunderstanding of things.
It was a it was a win win forsure to have that extra
knowledge and then be able tosort of share it around.

Bryan (09:47):
Yeah. For sure. One thing I thought was interest I was in
the same boat. I skipped phase 1because I had done the
commercial multi IFR atUniversity of Western Ontario.
And one of the things that Ifound very interesting was I
definitely found that at theoutset, I was ahead, but it was
really interesting how quicklythat gap closed.
Like, the efficiency of theCanadian Forces flight training

(10:07):
is really obvious. It's justreally amazing how quickly they
could bring people up to speedand and very quickly close that
gap.

Dave (10:14):
For sure. And I I see it. I mean, one of the primary ways
or one of the one of the reasonsfor that would be, you're sort
of living it every day. So cityside, you might have a have a
day job that you're doing whileyou're trying to pay for your
your flying on the side. You'redoing it sort of as you can
afford it.
Obviously, you join the CAF.That is your full time job when

(10:36):
you're loaded on a course.That's all you do all day every
day. And on top of that, I wasalready common at the time, so I
was living outside the barracks,but those who are living in sort
of the residential combinationsof the barracks, we're gonna
call it. Were sort of immersed247 in that flying train
experience.
So at night, you were stillhanging out with people that you
you were in class with all day.So there was always

(10:57):
opportunities to study. Andthose of us who lived in in the,
you know, outside of thosebarracks could still stop by,
and there's always somebodyaround that you could go and and
and talk to about what you weredoing that day or that week. And
I think just by having thatlevel of intensity and that that
level of frequency, candefinitely steepen the learning
curve. So it's definitely theway to do it if, if you're going

(11:19):
to do it.

Bryan (11:21):
Yeah. That's really good insight. I hadn't thought about
that before, but that's a hugethat's obviously a huge
contributing factor that you'rejust basically immersed in it
247, especially, like you said,if you're staying in barracks.
So that's a good point. You wereone of those folks who was lucky
enough to fly the CF 18.
What was your coolest experienceflying the Hornet?

Dave (11:38):
Oddly enough, probably the first trip. So I had never, I'd
never gone to any of JT or onthe job training, in either the
fighter base before. So I nevereven sat in a Hornet, before my
first flight, really. So Wow.And, on top of that, it was done
as part of a through the CBC,mini doc, but it would all be
done and recorded.

(11:59):
So instead of doing the the sortof standard clear hood lung
profile that you do, we got aclean jet to be able to perform
better. And it was a cold winterday, and, so the engines were
obviously performing better thanthey normally do. So really cool
experience. My very firsttakeoff in Hornet was a clean
Hornet with a a full afterburnertakeoff. So the acceleration
was, you know, probably doublewhat I'd ever seen in the Hawk

(12:21):
or anything else.
Yeah. Just a really cool way tosort of introduce to the jet
because it's such a huge leap inperformance. So it sort of
exceeded my, my expectations, ifyou will. So that's a a flight
that stuck with me.

Bryan (12:36):
That's awesome. Can you explain to the listeners what
you mean when you say a cleanjet?

Dave (12:40):
Sorry. Clean jet, meaning no no external stores. So
typically, most tacticalfighters like the, the f 18 or
the f 16 or anything, that sortof thing, we're very fuel
limited from the outset. So youtend to carry external fuel
tanks. Additionally, any bombsor missiles or weapons or pods
you might have on, everythingcontributes to drag and adds
weight, so they all come with aperformance penalty.

(13:03):
So when we fly CleanJet, thatmeans, you know, no external
stores, so you are getting thebest performance you're gonna
get out of the airplane in termsof thrust to weight and thrust
to drag.

Bryan (13:12):
Okay. Awesome. So you did your several flying tours, and
you ended up at the selectioncenter. Can you tell us more
about the path that led youthere?

Dave (13:22):
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Air crew selection center for me was
honestly more of a target ofopportunity than anything else.
Myself along with a lot ofpeople, like, geographic
stability is very important.
So the selection center being inTrenton made a really good fit.
And to be honest, for all that Iwent through air crew selection
like just about everybody else,so I kinda in the back of my
mind, I knew it was in Trenton.I didn't know a lot about it. It

(13:45):
was just offered up by my CEOone day, say, hey. Due for
posting sometime soon, this thisopportunity is here.
You'd probably be a good fit.Are you interested? And I said,
yeah. Of course. And, yeah.
So I sort of just fell into it,but it turned out to be a great
opportunity, a good, good spotto spend a ground tour if you
have to spend a ground tour. Sofor anyone out there who's

(14:06):
looking for a a ground tour, youcan keep it in mind.

Bryan (14:10):
Right on. It's always interesting to hear people who I
think as pilots, we have thistendency to, at least certainly
at the beginning of our career,all you wanna do is fly. And if
possible, you wanna flyoperationally even. Like, a lot
of people don't even wanna takethat time out of school. But
it's interesting as our careermoves along, you start to see
the value in maybe it's maybeit's actually good to take a

(14:32):
break from operations and go toa school for a while, or maybe
it's even good to take a breakfrom that and have just the,
hopefully, 8 to 4 kind of job ofa ground job where you can focus
more on family or whatever elseis going on in life.
And you start to see kind of asyou'd move along through your
career, you start to see thevalue in all the different types
of postings that a pilot canhave.

Dave (14:54):
Yeah. Definitely. And then, you know, in some cases, I
don't wanna say it should bemaybe it ends up being kind of
mandatory anyway, but I don'tthink it's necessarily a good
thing to spend 7 or 8 or 10years in continuous frontline
operations. I think that's arecipe for burning. And I think,
folks start to lose someperspective too, and they they

(15:15):
start to get a little bit lostin the in the machine and the
chaos.
So it's it's good to take a stepback. Go to, like you said, an 8
to 4 job can be can be reallygood for your family life, but
can also just be really good foryour own mental health. Take a
rest. And then when you go backto the opposite quadrant, you
you're ready to go again and,but you maybe still understand
that, hey, we're glad balancecan still matter. So, yeah, I I

(15:37):
do know a few people, becausethe J model is a single squadron
for the entire fleet, whichmeans that, you know, people who
keep flying then just can end upstaying on that squadron in an
inordinate amount of time,especially if they sort of
promote and then rehack theirtour, midway.
It's not uncommon to see 7, 8years straight on that squad. It

(16:00):
can definitely take a toll onthe family and the mental health
and everything else.

Bryan (16:04):
Yeah. I totally agree. Burnout is a real concern when
you're on a operational linethat long. And the other thing I
like that you said was the ideaof kind of gaining some
perspective by doing tours.Because when you're at the
pointy end, you see your issues,you see the things that make
sense and don't make sense toyou and to your peers, but you
might not necessarily know thewhys and wherefores behind why

(16:27):
things are happening that way.
And if you get a chance to workbehind the scenes, you might end
up feeling a little lessfrustrated the next time you're
back at the pointy end becauseyou actually understand, like,
well, this is why this ishappening. This is why this
needs to go this way. And andnow I understand that, and it's
not like it's easy to makeassumptions about why things are
happening in a certain way whenyou're when you don't know

(16:49):
exactly what's going on behindthe scenes.

Dave (16:51):
For sure. Yeah. Peeking behind the curtain can be, good
for the mutual understandingpiece. And I always try to
encourage conversations andgetting to know the people who
work behind the curtain. It'sunfortunate that, our
headquarters is sort ofdislocated from us.
So, you know, guys in Winnipegare are running the show, for
Mhmm. Some Trenton here. It canlead to some, some

(17:12):
misunderstandings for sure and,like I said, some frustration.
So being able to to look behindthe curtain, it's always nice
when one of our folks who camefrom Squatter is at the other
end in Winnipeg, and youactually know the person so you
can call them and get sort ofsome of that, us versus
situation that can developsometimes because, obviously,
everybody's got a job to do andis trying to to do their best at

(17:34):
their job. But it's not alwaysclear.
Like you said, if you're if youjust know an operator your whole
life, you might not understandwhat's going on behind the
scenes or some of the reasonswhy.

Bryan (17:43):
Yeah. And it takes a real intentional effort to avoid
those us versus themmentalities. Like, that's not
something people intentionallydevelop. It's just something
that sort of seems to naturallyhappen, just because you're
operating in different spheresin different worlds. So it can
happen really easily betweenaircrew and maintainers or
aircrew and and headquarterstypes or or all those different

(18:05):
kinds of interactions.
And it's why it's so important,like you said, to get to know
those people and try to developsome mutual understanding
between them.

Dave (18:13):
Yeah. For sure.

Bryan (18:14):
Okay. Let's start talking aircrew selection. Can you tell
us more about your role at theselection center?

Dave (18:19):
Yeah. In terms of my my personal roles, commanding
officer there, it's, actuallykind of funny to call it a
commanding officer positionbecause there's only 5 people at
the center. But that just hasmore to do with the fact that
we're we're dislocated fromheadquarters in Winnipeg and
just gives you the importance ofwhat the center does. They want
to sort of assign it that thatlevel of importance. But, the
center itself, I guess theeasiest way to describe it is we

(18:42):
act as the filter between therecruiting center and phase 1.
So if I had to, in sort oflayman's terms, unless we just
say that we're there to makesure that the folks that we're
sending onward to later phasesof training at a higher cost. So
phase 1 and onward are the rightpeople and people who are as

(19:06):
likely as possible to besuccessful. And I think with the
updates in the testingmethodology over the past few
years, we've seen a prettysubstantial increase in the
success rate of the candidatesthat are going forward. So I
would say that the selectioncenter is doing exactly what it
was designed to do and probablyalways had, but I'd say that

(19:27):
it's probably getting better andis better now than it maybe was
when you or I went through.

Bryan (19:32):
Yeah. It's definitely changed a lot. I'm I'm looking
forward to talking a bit aboutthat because I know it's changed
like crazy since we did it, andit was basically like a bunch of
sims and then a couple papertests.

Dave (19:43):
Right. Yeah. Exactly. Which I don't know. I don't have
the, the hard data on howsuccessful or how well validated
any of that was.
I can say, I think at least frommy perspective, the old testing
methodology where it was moresitting in what looked a lot
like a flight simulator, maybeintuitively looked like it would

(20:03):
test well for, for what makes agood pilot. But I don't think
that was necessarily everscientifically valid. And I
think with the cockpits that weare employing now in the CAF,
it's probably less and lessrelevant because I think it
focused more on your hands andfeet and just maybe 1 or 2 of
the domains that we test fornow. But it didn't do anything
to screen for those skill setsthat are probably more important

(20:26):
now in airplanes that are fly bywire. Essentially though, like
if you look at an F18, probablythe easiest to fly airplane that
I've ever flown because thecomputer is doing a lot of the
work for you.
But what's challenging aboutthose cockpits is all the
systems management and thesituational awareness, which is
what we focus on more now at theselection level.

Bryan (20:48):
Yeah. That's the interesting thing about flying
as an air force pilot is you'renot just up there to fly. You're
using flight as a means ofaccomplishing whatever your
mission is. So flying is kind oflike the background skill while
you employ the aircraft toachieve whatever tactical goal
you're trying to accomplish.

Dave (21:06):
Yeah. That's that's exactly right. And particularly
as we move forward into more andmore modern cockpits, we're
starting to remove some of thosepositions, like some of the axos
slash what used to callnavigators are being employed in
fewer platforms or employed indifferent ways. So a lot of the
work that they used to do is nowbeing shifted to the pilots. And

(21:28):
a lot of the work that thepilots used to do is now being
shifted to the airplane becauseit's not capable of doing that
piece on its own.
So it's kind of an interestingtime to be, to be in a sort of
selection game because it's, thefuture is right in front of us
and we're looking at some newplatforms the next few years as
a CAF, and they are probablygoing to have some some fairly

(21:50):
different requirements from theairplanes that they're flying
even just a few years ago. Likethe, while we are still flying
with the legacy H model Herculesor, even the f 18, I think the
the f 35 is gonna be anothersort of leap forward.

Bryan (22:04):
Yeah. A 100%. So by the time somebody gets to the
selection center, what processeshave they completed?

Dave (22:11):
By the time they get to aircrew selection Trenton, it
sort of depends because we wesee people from a few different,
places, but, including sort offolks who are already maybe at
RMC, or folks who are doing anin service selection where
they're already a member of theCAF, but they're in a different
trade and they're looking tomove over to recruit trade. But

(22:31):
I think the vast majority of thefolks we see are coming off the
streets today are civilians.What they will have done at that
point is essentially just thebasic recruiting center piece.
So they'll have gone in, they'llhave done their Canadian force
aptitude test, which isdifferent from the test that we
administer, but it it's sort ofalong the same lines. It's
looking for, for certainabilities.

(22:53):
They'll have done their theirinterview at the recruiting
center and they'll have beenidentified as probably suitable
or potentially suitable for oneof these aircrew trades. And
then they'll be sent to us andthen we will run them through,
you know, our selection process.And then I think we can talk
about what goes on after that. Ithink you might have some
questions about that.

Bryan (23:10):
And we will definitely touch on some of that. Will the
applicants get any kind ofpreparation material? And if so,
what will it consist of?

Dave (23:16):
Yeah. So I'm glad you asked. I was going to to try and
spell out the link, but I'llI'll maybe just send it to you
because it's a long one. Butthere are a couple of, on Canada
dot ca, if you know where whereto go digging for it or if you
just Google Canadian Forces AirCrew Selection Centre, the 2
first hits that come up, Ichecked them this morning, are
are relevant. So, one of them isour candidate guide.

(23:38):
And that actually talks a lotabout the test itself and it
even gives you some sort ofscreenshots of what the test is
going to look like. And I thinkthat can be really helpful
because then you're not sort ofsurprised the day out. You're
sort of you're able to mentallybe prepared for what you're
going to be looking at. And thenthe other one is the joining
instructions piece, which whichhas some more information on
sort of what to expect, howyou're going to get here, where

(24:00):
you're going to stay, whatyou're going to eat, and what
your day to day is going to looklike. And then there's actually
a video link in there as well,which gives a pretty good
overview of what to expect overthe 2 days of testing.
And it gives candidates a lookinside the center. So you'll see
the classroom you'll be in,you'll see the testing center
and the computers you'll besitting at. Again, I think that
could be helpful sort of forfolks who might be a bit anxious

(24:21):
about doing the test or comingto do the selection. Just having
a visual of what to expect mightbe helpful, but I'll, I'll send
you those links for sure becauseI think it's important that
people coming here have anopportunity to check those out.

Bryan (24:33):
Yeah. For sure. And we'll put those in the show notes so
that any of the listeners whoare interested in that can check
it out on the website and canfollow the links to to see
those. The first one youmentioned, is that was that like
a study guide, essentially?

Dave (24:46):
I don't know if I'd call it a study guide, though. So
what's important, I guess, tounderstand about our test is
that the intellectual propertyof the test is not something
that the Canadian Forces or theCanadian government owns. It
belongs to a civilian vendor andwe use it under license. So they
are very careful to protecttheir intellectual property. So
there's not a lot we can releaseabout the test.

Bryan (25:07):
Okay.

Dave (25:08):
So I'll stop short of calling it a study guide,
although I think it might befair to call it a preparation
guide in terms of giving peoplean idea of what they're going to
be tested for. And if you, ifyou look at that guide and you
look at what the tests are, Ithink that will give people a
really good idea of what kindsof things they could go out and
practice before they show up interms of getting ready. We're

(25:31):
not really allowed to endorseand I won't endorse any
particular app or any particularwebsite or anything. But if you
take a look at what's in there,I think most people will look at
it and go, oh, that looks awhole lot like x, y, zed app.

Bryan (25:43):
And,

Dave (25:44):
I can't speak to whether or not there's any value. We
haven't got any hard, good datato say if you do such and such
to prepare, you willstatistically be x amount more
prepared. But I think,intuitively, it kinda makes
sense, and I really don't thinkit it can't hurt anyway.

Bryan (25:57):
Yep. That makes sense. And for our listeners, if it
sounds like sometimes Dave iscan't directly answer a
question, there arenondisclosure agreements
involved in this process, and werespect those and so do the
trainees who attend. So thereare just certain things that
can't can't be directlydiscussed on the show, and we're
we're working our way throughthat as we kind of ask the

(26:19):
different questions. So we justhave to be patient with that,
and that's just the way it is.

Dave (26:22):
We, as the selection center, are definitely not
trying to hide anything. We'renot trying to make it any more
difficult than it needs to be. Ithink the test stands up very
well on its own. As you said, weshould respect our agreements
with our vendor and, we don'twant to step into the territory
of violating the trust that wehave with them because they do
provide us a good service andgood support. And, you know, we

(26:43):
have an obligation to, to holdup our end of the bargain.

Bryan (26:46):
Okay. So you may or may not be able to answer this
question just based on whatyou've already said. But I asked
about preparation material onthat same subject. Is there a
best way an applicant canprepare for selection testing?

Dave (26:58):
Yeah. So, as I said, go take a look at the candidate's
guide and take a look at whatthe different tests are. You'll
see some screenshots, and it'llgive you an idea of what the
tests are about. And I thinkmost people should be able to
kind of get an idea. I knowthere's and again, I won't point
out any links or anything.
I know there's some Redditthreads out there, and I know
the RAF, whose test is also verysimilar to ours, have some other

(27:23):
maybe resources that coulddefinitely be helpful. Again, I
won't point it to them directly,but I will say that as far as I
know, our, our vendor suppliesthe RAF as well and the RAF have
a different arrangement with thevendor than we do in terms of
what they can share and whatthey can push out there. So I
think that's that's as far asI'll stick my head code on that
one. But, if someone were to goand look up what the RAF test

(27:46):
looks like, they'd get a prettygood idea of ours. And, again,
you will get an idea of what itlooks like just from the
candidate guide.
We can release that. That's nota problem. We just can't,
specifically endorse anyparticular preparation method or
anything. The other side of thatbeing, if if we were to go and
endorse something and thensomebody didn't do well, we
don't want them to feel like we,we led them astray. So I think
it's, part part of

Bryan (28:08):
for sure.

Dave (28:08):
Part of folks showing that they're motivated, we could say
is is probably going out anddoing some of that research on
their own. And it's not it's notvery hard to find via via
Google. So if, if this is a jobor a career that you're
interested in, it wouldn't takeyou that long to find some, some
fairly helpful resources.Alright. That's that's not a
very satisfying answer to anyonewho's, who's looking to, to come

(28:29):
our way.
But, I think once folks folksrealize that they can Google it,
it won't take them all to, to 0in on the right resource.

Bryan (28:36):
Well, and that's a skill they're going to have to carry
forward through their flighttraining anyways is being able
to go into the documents andfind the information you need
and not always have it spoon fedto you. So you'll need to be
able to handle this basic search

Dave (28:50):
function. Exactly.

Bryan (28:52):
One of the things that really impresses me these days
is how competitive this processhas become and the level of
preparation people do try to gointo it with. Just talking to
various I get a lot of messages,emails, whatever, from listeners
who are either have gone throughthe process or about to go
through the process. And thecompetitive nature now of

(29:14):
selection is wild because Iremember basically just showing
up and thinking, well, I'll justdo my best. And, you know, I I
went in and performed decentlyand and got the offer, and that
was that. It seems like it'sbecome an extremely competitive
process now.

Dave (29:31):
I'll say what I think has probably changed the most other
than just the fact that testitself is very different. But I
think the Internet has kind ofchanged the way that candidates
can prepare and how theycommunicate for him. So I think
you you said you went through 18or so years ago or whatever it
was. Somewhere from AI, I I wentthrough testing in, 2004. And if

(29:51):
we think if we go in the wayback machine and think back to
the early 2000, there justwasn't that much out there on
the Internet.
You couldn't Google CanadianForces' aircrew selection and
get 6 Reddit trends to talkabout, sort of what it is that
Yeah.

Bryan (30:04):
100%. The

Dave (30:04):
only real resource you had was maybe the recruiting center
or if you're fortunate enough tohave a friend or a colleague or
a family member who has alreadygone through it, they talk to
you about it a little bit, butthe resources weren't really out
there for you to be able to domuch prep beyond what they tell
you their Korean style, whichis, yeah, go practice your basic
math, your mental math, thosekinds of things, which is all
still valid. But now I think theresources that you can get with

(30:28):
a simple Google search areamazing. So you're absolutely
right. It means that people cango up much, much better prepared
and it can make it that muchmore challenging, that much more
competitive. I think, that's anet benefit for the CAF.
Maybe if you're the candidateshowing up to try and get in,
you're less happy about thatbecause if you're the one who's

(30:48):
going to work hard and getprepared, you'll know that you
still have a lot of competitionand it can be fierce. And there
are only so many slots a year.So even if someone we can I
think you had a question aboutit later, but even if someone
makes it through and and andqualifies selection wise, it
doesn't mean that they'renecessarily going to get
selected and recruited at theend of the day? Because even

(31:10):
once they pass their crewselection, they still go to
selection boards who will thenrack and stack them based on
largely based on what theirtheir ASC scores are, but also
based on other factors that,that recruiting group
determines. So maybe educationalbackground or things like that.

Bryan (31:26):
Yeah. That makes sense. So you just mentioned that, you
know, air crew selection haschanged a ton since I took it 18
years ago. Can you summarize theprocess of air crew selection
testing from start to finish?

Dave (31:38):
Yeah, for sure. So you go through the recruiting center,
wherever that is, your closestone. And, once they determine
that you meet the basiceligibility requirements,
through the recruiting group,They will load you on a, on a
course here or a serial, we callthem here. And then they'll then
make arrangements for yourtravel, and all those sorts of

(31:59):
things. So depending on whereyou are in the country, a lot of
folks arrive in through PearsonInternational and Toronto, then
make their way to Trenton.
That'll usually happen the nightbefore for candidates who come
from everywhere from AlbertaEast. And if they come from BC
or overseas, including thestates, then they'll arrive a
day prior. So they get an extraday to sort of get their body

(32:19):
acclimated to Eastern time andall that stuff. Day 1 of the
testing, they'll show up at 800in the morning. We'll do a bit
of admin and processing, givethem a brief about what to
expect over the next few days,make sure they haven't had any
significant issues traveling,etcetera.
Get them to sign a nondisclosure agreement as you
already mentioned. And thenthey're into part 1 of the

(32:40):
testing. So the total test timesaround 7 and a half hours,
depending on how fast thecandidate is. That's a bit over
the 2 days. So day 1, they'll do3 to 4 hours of testing, at
which point, and in that timewe'll, we'll cut them loose for
lunch as required.
Once they complete their testingfor day 1, so 3 or 4 hours of

(33:00):
testing for day 1, we'll takethem into what we call a
realistic job preview. What thatis is the candidate's first
opportunity to talk to an actualmember of aircrew might be the
day that they arrive atselection. So oftentimes,
they'll come from a recruitingcenter where there are no
aircrew members. You know, theymight talk to a bunch of army
people who will do their best,but don't have that firsthand

(33:22):
knowledge and experience. So therealistic job preview, takes
about an hour, hour and a halfon that first day in the in the
afternoon.
It's an opportunity for them totalk to, a pilot, an AECSO, and
an AEC.

Bryan (33:34):
AECs are aerospace control officers. They operate
as air traffic controllers, airbattle managers, and tactical
air control party air officers.

Dave (33:43):
It's probably the first time they've had an opportunity
to hear it from somebody withactual firsthand experience. And
we'll get some reallyinteresting questions, through
those that maybe even we haven'tthought of, but there'll be some
of the simple things like what'severyday life like, what's your
schedule like, you know, wherecan I expect to be posted to,
how often will I be posted? Whenthey're trying to get those

(34:04):
answers out of the recruitingcenter, they're getting a very
generic sort of answer thatprobably doesn't doesn't paint a
realistic picture. So I thinkthe the RJP or the Realistic Job
Preview is probably, importantin terms of forming their
expectations of what a careerwill look like for them. And
then obviously, even withinthat, each community can make

(34:24):
your, your experience vary quitea bit.
So we do have a little bit of aspread throughout our pilots. If
they have specific questionsabout a specific community, but
at the very least, we tend toknow who to point them to for a
real answer from somebody who'sactually done it. So that can be
helpful as well, I think.

Bryan (34:42):
Yeah. That's awesome. I don't recall that they used to
do that when when I wentthrough. I can't remember for
sure because it's quite a whileago, but

Dave (34:49):
I I think it is new. Again, like you, I don't
remember ever getting that. Iremember maybe our results being
yelled out in public toeverybody and, and now and then
I was like, okay. You failed.You failed.
You failed. You passed. We'llget measured kind of thing. We
have a different approach now.So, good segue.
So after that realistic jobpreview, which again, yeah, I
think is more of a modern thingthat we do, that'll be the end

(35:13):
of their day 1 and they'll becut loose, for the evening so
they can go back to the barracksor to go have dinner. The next
morning they're in back at 7:30,8 o'clock time window and
they'll start part 2 of theirtesting. And that'll be the last
of the 7 and a half hours. Soagain, really depends on the
candidate. Sometimes it's quick,sometimes they need a little bit

(35:33):
more time and that's fine.
Once they complete theirtesting, we get results right
away out of the system. It'llgive us their final results for
each of the the differentdomains, and it'll tell us which
of the trades they qualified foror not. And then, again, I think
different from when you and Imight have gone through, they
actually get an individual sitdown debrief. So definitely a

(35:54):
kinder, gentler approach, but Ithink a more useful one as well
because if they haven't made itthrough for the trade they
selected, for example, they mayhave still qualified for another
trade or another one of the 3trades that we're we're testing
for, which means that we canperhaps just guide them toward
that other career that theymight not have considered. I
think, you know, Top Gun hasgets a lot it's a lot of mileage

(36:16):
for just sort of off the streetpeople who don't have a
background in aviation, but Idon't think the, the Wizzos or
the, the air traffic controllersin Top Gun get a lot of screen
time.
So I think for a lot of people,those are trades that they maybe
haven't considered if they don'thave a background in aviation or
family member in aviation or inthe military. So it's an
opportunity for us to try andgive them, I don't wanna say a

(36:37):
sales pitch, but at least opentheir eyes to, maybe something
else they could try. And it maybe that they did very well in
terms of, hey, you'd make a goodair traffic controller according
to your test. You just youmissed out on some of the stuff
for pilot, but those thingsmight be pilot specific and
then, we can, we can guide themtowards those opportunities. If
they're unsuccessful foreverything, we can explain the
policy for retesting, which isthey have to wait 12 months, but

(37:00):
that's it.
I think back in our day, if youweren't successful the first
time around, you had to go offand you had to pay for your own
flying training and sort of makesome progress. That's no no
longer the case.

Bryan (37:11):
Because you used to have to basically upgrade, I think, a
a level of licensing fromwhatever you had. Like, if you
had no pilot license, you neededto come back with a private
license. If you had a privatelicense, I think you needed to
come back with a commerciallicense.

Dave (37:23):
That's right. Yeah. And that's that's what I remember as
well. So that's gone, which Ithink is a good thing. Now it's
just a it's just a blanket 12months, wait time, which for
better or worse, I think it'sjust it's it's a way of making
sure somebody doesn't do it oneday and then try it again 3
weeks later, but it's very, veryfresh in their minds.
So maybe it would bias the test.

Bryan (37:42):
Yeah. For sure.

Dave (37:43):
It also shows that if you're willing to go away and
wait 12 months and come try itagain, you're you're probably
serious. This this is somethingyou're willing to to to wait for
and go do again. But I thinkit's great that they've removed
that requirement to go out andspend potentially 1,000 of
dollars on your own pocketbecause not everybody can do
that. And I think we probablylose out on some candidates just

(38:03):
because of that, which I don'tthink is good for anybody. So
it's it's good now.
It's just a straight 12 monthsand, or you could potentially
try for another trade.

Bryan (38:13):
I really like that change in policy. I think the old
policy definitely biased againstanyone who basically was in any
way financially disadvantaged.Most people cannot afford to go
and, in a year, get a privatepilot license or especially a
commercial license if youalready had a private license.
Let's say

Dave (38:30):
I totally agree. And, yeah, at a certain stage, we're
also looking potentially torecruit. So so a lot of the DEO
folks right there postuniversity. They're at a certain
stage of life.

Bryan (38:41):
And when you say DEO, that's Direct Entry Officer?

Dave (38:44):
The folks who are walking in off the street already with
their degree. They're at adifferent stage of life from an
ROTP, so the regular officertraining plan, those those RMC
candidates. They probablyalready have a family and other
obligations. So to ask them togo and spend within a year ago
and get maybe a commercial pilotlicense, I think that's probably
not realistic. No.
Or or a good it wouldn't be agood family decision for them in

(39:06):
the first place because it's ahuge gamble at the end of the
day. So I think it's great.Yeah. You just wait a year if
you can if you can afford towait a year. If you've already
got something else going on,then, you have the opportunity
to come and try it again.
And you can do it up to 3 times,so that's a lifetime maximum.
But most people, I'll say, if ifthey're unsuccessful on their
first try, but they're dedicatedand they they spend that 12
months off preparing and anddoing what they can to, correct

(39:29):
the deficiencies that we willhave pointed out in their
debrief session. Statistically,their second time around,
they're much more successfulthan they were on their 1st go
round. So anyone who's close tothe line, I'll always strongly
encourage to see if you can waitthe 12 months, come back and do
it again. You'll probably getthrough, on the 2nd time around.

Bryan (39:47):
Yeah. That makes sense. I know that obviously there's
gonna be some advantage forhaving seen the test before. And
like you said, with having agood debrief and going back and
specifically working on whateveryour deficiencies were, you
should have a good chance ofsucceeding the second time
around. So we've hinted a littlebit at this, but what metrics
are being measured by aircrewselection?

(40:08):
I've heard people talk about the7 cognitive categories. Can you
tell us a little more aboutthat?

Dave (40:14):
Yeah. For sure. And again, this this information is
actually readily available.Those are the links I'll send
you, but we can we candefinitely cover it here. So the
some things we look at first isstrategic task management.
So that is kind of being able toprioritize things in real time,
being able to plan ahead. Soyou'll have different, I'll
segue here, there are multipletests and different tests will

(40:37):
feed in each of these domains.So some, some tests will feed
into more than 1. Others arereally only informing 1, but,
generally speaking, strategictask management, we really just
sort of prioritize plan ahead.Perceptual processing, so that's
sort of being able to pick outinformation from a large field
and and pick out what'simportant and what you actually
need.
Short term memory, so literallyjust being able to remember

(40:59):
things in short time. Havingother information kind of thrown
at you at the same time and thenbeing able to recall what you
were shown earlier. So again, itit speaks that ability to sort
of filter out what's notimportant in the moment, which
is super applicable to moderncockpits. Spatial reasoning, so
and and again, I can talk aboutthis because you'll see it on

(41:20):
our on our, preparationmaterial, but it'll be things
like it'll show you an airplane,sort of a picture, a 3 d picture
of an airplane, and it'll showyou the instrumentation. It'll
ask you to sort of match uplike, hey, which is which?
So it'll give you like 4pictures of an airplane. It'll
show you a set of instrumentsand it'll go, okay, which
airplane does that represent?What's your ability? And it'll,
it'll give you other things. Andagain, if you look at some of

(41:42):
the apps that are online outthere, it'll give you like a
deconstructed box.
It'll give you an image of thefully constructed box and like 4
deconstructed boxes and it'llsay, okay, well, which box is
that? If you were to flatten itout. It'll have like a different
shape on each side, if you will,and then it'll fold it flat.
It's your ability for your brainto sort of put that image back

(42:02):
together. Another one issymbolic reasoning.
So there's some mental mathinvolved here, and I'd say I'll
put an asterisk or a footstopper here. 1 of the things
that I can say, at leastanecdotally amongst the staff,
what we've noticed is youngercandidates, I won't give a

(42:22):
number, but I'll say those likethe ROTP candidates who tend to
be just coming out of highschool age and to suffer more in
the mental math categories. Wecan speculate as to why all day
long. It could be that they grewup with a calculator in their
pocket, whereas the older folksmaybe didn't. But if there's
something that if I were if Iwere an 18 year old looking to
come to the selection center,symbolic reasoning, the mental

(42:43):
math piece is probably somethingI would focus on.
Just being able to do the quickmental math. I don't need you to
be able to do calculus andintegrals and stuff, but if you
can do the mental calculations,that's something that we do see
a little bit of weakness in forsome of those younger folks.
Psych psychomotor. So this iswhat they used to test us for in
the in the big moving box.Right?

(43:04):
Psychomotor being your hands andfeet. Yep. And your your hand
eye coordination. So, definitelyweighted and and weighted more
heavily for pilot candidates. Interms of preparing for it, I
mean, if you grew up playing anykind of video games, you're
you're probably gonna be okayhere.
We literally have, like, a videogame controller stick and and
some video game panels. Thetests consist of different

(43:25):
things like trying to hold across on a dot in the middle of
the screen, and then using thejoystick to keep it there as the
cross tries to wander away atdifferent speeds and different
directions. Literally, yourability to see something
happening with your eyes andthen correct it with your hands.
And then central informationprocessing. So your ability to

(43:46):
multitask, if I if I could putit that way.
So you'll have things like,you'll have a fuel number and
air speed and a and a distanceand a whole bunch of other
information, and you just needto be able to maintain kind of a
cross check. And then when thefuel gets to a certain level,
you have to hit a little greenrefuel button. When the, you
know, the other number gets to acertain point, I have to hit a
different button. So it's yourability to just keep a cross

(44:07):
check up and then sort of noticethat certain things need to be
cross checked more often. Sodevelop your cross check as you
go.
Again, very applicable. I mean,if anybody who's flown can tell
you that's that's probably acore skill. So those are sort of
the 7. Again, there's moreinformation available in the
guide and probably worth goinginto for anyone who's coming out
to do the test. And then, theguide will also talk it'll break

(44:31):
down the the individual tests alittle bit further.
I think it would be a bit dryfor us to talk about here.

Bryan (44:35):
For sure.

Dave (44:36):
But those those are the sort of things that we're
looking at.

Bryan (44:38):
Interesting. You may you may not know because obviously
you've only been involved withstaff in recent years. Were they
testing for all these differentcognitive categories back when
we did it, or has this beensomething that's developed over
time?

Dave (44:50):
It's definitely developed over time. The, there was some
of it back in our day. I don'tknow if you remember when you
went through and I think it wasdone more at the medical
screening level. So if you wentto Toronto to DRDC there to get
your measurements and stuff doneback in our day, they sat you in
front of a computer screen andyou do a couple of sort of
cognitive abilities tests.

Bryan (45:11):
I do remember that. Yeah.

Dave (45:12):
I think it was handled more on the medical side than on
the selection side at the time.Now we're definitely taking it
on the front end here, so tospeak, just to, because it is so
applicable to what you're goingto do in a modern aircraft.

Bryan (45:25):
Right. And plus, if you handle it there, it's more
people through the filter,basically. Right? So, you know,
DRDC is is busy like every otherpart of the military. So the
more people that get, let's say,oh, they do every great at
everything, but not that part.
That's probably something youwanna know before you send them
for medical testing at DRDC.

Dave (45:43):
Yeah. That's right. And and that's a good, good that you
bring that up because back inour day, you'd go through the
selection center in Trenton, andthen on the same sort of trip,
at the end, you'd go to Torontoto Safemie within DRDC and

Bryan (45:56):
get your

Dave (45:56):
testing done. We don't do that anymore. Because of what
the pass rate is and resourcesbeing what they are, we now
bring candidates back. So ifthey're successful and we'll
actually do the measurements atthe selection center ourselves.
So we'll get the idea of like,do you fit in the cockpits?
Yes, no, or maybe I'm willing tosend you for a cockpit check.
And then if all of that issuccessful, so the candidates

(46:19):
will go home. But if they'resuccessful with all that, then
they'll be scheduled to go toSafini on a separate trip to get
measured.

Bryan (46:25):
Okay.

Dave (46:26):
That is unless they're out camp. If they're coming from
overseas and, like, they do iton the same trip just to make
things a bit easier because theinternational travel piece.

Bryan (46:35):
Yeah. That makes sense. We were just sort of speaking to
this, but what are the potentialoutcomes at the end of testing?

Dave (46:41):
Yeah. So when you come in at the recruiting center, you'll
have given them, you know, youknow, your sort of first choice,
second choice, what tradesyou're interested in. What we
look at for statistics, isreally what your first choice is
versus how many pass. Thatdoesn't mean that you'll fail
for everything. So if you comein, best case scenario, I guess,
would be that you are successfulfor your first choice.

(47:02):
So let's say you come in forPilot, you're successful at the
end of the day, we'll take yourmeasurements. So we're looking
at things like your seatedheight, your reach, your femur
length, just to make sure youfit within at least 2 out of 3
of our training cockpits. And Isay this today as of September
2024, this is being reviewed. Ithink they're, they're going to
get a little bit more in detailabout different cockpits and

(47:25):
sort of trying to make sure thatwe're taking people who are
going to fit because we have hada few cases where people get
substantially through theirtraining and then we find out,
well, actually you don't fit inthese cockpits and we should
have only taken you for otherthings. So it is evolving as a
process for sure.
But assuming, assuming you'regreen and you fit in all those
cockpits, you'll go home. You'llcheck back into your recruiting

(47:46):
center. You'll say, Hey, Ipassed for everything. They'll
double check and we'll havealready input the data in our
system and they'll be able tosee that you're successful and
that will move your file alongto selection boards. And then
again, they'll rack and stack,so X number of slots and that
changes depending on therequirements year to year or
even quarter to quarter.

(48:08):
But if you make that cut, thenyou'll be given a job offer,
you'd be sworn in, and thenyou're off in the system. So
awaiting basic training and soon. If you're not successful for
your first choice, but foranother choice, again, I'll be
part of the debrief process.We'll see if you're interested.
At the end of the day, all we doat the selection center is point
out what's available or what'spossible.

(48:29):
And then the onus is on thecandidates to go back to
recruiting center and say, hey,I wasn't successful for the
pilot like I wanted, but I madeit for Axo and I am interested
in doing that. And then they'llbe on to the selection process
or the continued selectionprocess for that. So again, the
selection boards, rack andstack, top candidates will be
given job offers. Or there ispotential that they were
completely unsuccessful foranything or that they're not

(48:51):
interested in another trade. Sothey tried to have a pilot,
we're not successful, don'twanna do it.
We'll inform them that, hey,you're allowed to come back and
try it again in 12 months.Again, onus being on a
candidate, go back to yourrecruiting center, tell them,
yeah, I wanna try it again in 12months, and we'll keep your file
open. Or I guess you coulddecide that, nope, you're not
interested or maybe you'reinterested in something that's
not an aircrew trade. And again,that's just between the member

(49:12):
at that point and the recruitingcenter. There are people who
come through, they're notsuccessful for any of the
aircrew trades, but they think,hey, I'd still be happy to be
something else within the CAF.
And there are tons ofopportunities, obviously. So

Bryan (49:25):
Mhmm.

Dave (49:26):
Still lots of room for for folks who don't make it for
whatever reason through ourselection. Doesn't mean they
wouldn't be extremely good atsomething else.

Bryan (49:32):
What percentage of applicants are successful in
getting selected as pilot?

Dave (49:36):
So that's a it's a difficult one to give you a
straight answer on as youprobably gathered that I can't
ever give a straight answer. Sowe we tend to track for first
choice success only, which makesit a bit easier because pilot
tends to be people's firstchoice. We rarely see it in the
2nd or 3rd. We see anywherebetween maybe 35 50% success on

(49:59):
a on a first attempt for firstchoice pilot. But that doesn't
mean that let's say of those 50to 70% who are unsuccessful
pilot, that doesn't mean thatthey're not successful for Akzo
or AEC.

Bryan (50:11):
So

Dave (50:12):
when you say like successful, I can only really
speak to that first choice pilotbeing successful or not. 30 to
50 percent depending on sort ofthe time of year who we're
testing. So DEO, the directentry, they tend to be a little
bit older and perhaps moremature. We're not really sure.
We don't have I'd be speculatingbig time if I sort of take a

(50:33):
guess at why they tend to do alittle bit better.
But they do tend to do a littlebit better than say our ROTP
who, you know, in the case ofsomeone coming from Quebec in
the CGEP system, they may onlybe 16 or 17 years old, might be
their first time away from home.So I think that probably
contributes a little bit toNURBS and just having a little
bit of a harder time with thetest. But with that being said,

(50:54):
if we're testing much oldercandidates, that can also have
an impact on their success. So

Bryan (50:58):
I guess, like like, for example, I'm 38 now, so I'd be
an older candidate. And I thinkabout now, like, how would I do
if I was walking into aircrewselection, maybe even with my
flight experience? I think itwould be challenging, because
there's so many of those skillsthat I just haven't like like
basic mental math and thingsthat I'm you you know, when I
did it when I was 20, I had justgraduated high school. So I had

(51:23):
done tons of basic mental mathvery recently. I think as a as
somebody who's been goingthrough life now for almost 20
years since then, and not usinga ton of those skills, like, I
would have to do a lot of studyand prep to show up and be
successful at this point, Ithink.

Dave (51:37):
Yeah. That's that's definitely true. There's
probably and, again, we haven'treally gone to the extent of
linking it scientifically toanything in particular, but
anecdotally, I can say thatanyone over sort of the late
thirties, 40, we do see a dropoff in performance. And whether
that's because you're older andyour brain maybe doesn't work
the same way anymore, or likeyou say, some of those basic

(52:00):
skill sets are not somethingyou've used. And, the older we
get, we know that learningdoesn't get any easier with age.
So

Bryan (52:06):
Yeah. For sure.

Dave (52:07):
That can probably have an impact too.

Bryan (52:09):
Mhmm. So you said 30 to 50% of people are successful on
their first choice, which istypically pilot. Would you have
numbers on what percentage ofpeople who are selected as pilot
successfully complete flighttraining?

Dave (52:22):
I don't have really good recent data, and I don't wanna
don't offer too much of a of aguess. What I can say is that
attrition at the phase 1. Sothat is what's done in Portage
at the time. The numbers we haveare for the Globe, which is a
few years old now. I think it'sbeen replaced, but the failure

(52:42):
rate went from being fairlysignificant down into, if not
the single digits, definitelythe teens.
So it became the exception aboutthe rule that people would not
make it through phase 1. So ifyou make it through aircrew
selection now, your odds ofmaking it through phase 1
selection are extremely good.Mhmm. At least compared to what
it used to be. Part of thereason I'll be I'll hesitate to

(53:03):
comment too on overall successis it really depends where we
stick the bar and what fleets.
It becomes a really complicatedquestion to answer because
different sub I don't know ifyou should call it a sub trade,
but, you know, as you know, likehelicopter, multi engine,
fighter, they each have theirown success rates within those
communities. And then we'd haveto try and control for, you

(53:24):
know, how how high quality thecandidate pool at the time was
and how competitive it was andthen how successful they were.

Bryan (53:30):
For sure.

Dave (53:31):
So to to give a good robust scientific answer, you
should think of their goals.

Bryan (53:36):
Yeah.

Dave (53:36):
But again, the the goal of ASC is to to reduce downstream
failures. Yep. And I would saythat since you and I went
through, it's it's actuallygotten better for people who
make it through. They'redefinitely more likely to be
successful.

Bryan (53:48):
Which makes sense because that is the entire goal of
aircrew selection programs.Like, I was reading some data
on, one of the ones that theyuse in the United States, and
they mentioned in their kind offact book that the program saves
them something like $52,000,000annually in avoiding failed

(54:09):
training costs. Now, obviously,our savings would be less
because we have a much smallerscale of flight training, but it
gives you an idea of kind ofwhat the point of aircrew
selection is. The other thingyou mentioned the GROW being
replaced, just a quick note. Ithink it has been scheduled for
replacement under FACT, futureaircrew training, but it's still
in use right now still.

Dave (54:29):
Yeah. I think I think you're right there. I I don't
wanna get it too much into factbecause I'm definitely not a
subject matter expert, but, Ithink for anyone looking at
coming to aircrew selection, saytoday, they probably by the time
they get through the system,they'd probably be looking at
flying one of those stackedaircraft, downrange.

Bryan (54:46):
That's true. I believe that's true. Yep. Yep. Okay.
That's gonna wrap up part 1 ofour chat with Dave about aircrew
selection. For part 2, we'll betalking about questions the
audience, particularly onReddit, asked as well as some
FAQs that Dave and the folks atthe aircrew selection center get
asked fairly often. Do you haveany questions or comments about

(55:07):
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