Episode 35: The Selection: The Canadian Forces Aircrew Selection Test Part 2 - Dave

All RCAF pilots must pass through the Canadian Forces Aircrew Selection Centre (CFASC) - but what does it take to make it through? We sat down with Dave Chamberlin, former CO of CFASC, to find out exactly that - and much more! Today we'll discuss questions that you the audience asked as well as some FAQs they hear fairly often at CFASC. Join us today for part 2 of our 2 part series on Aircrew Selection!

Links:
https://www.canada.ca/en/air-force/services/training-education/canadian-forces-aircrew-selection-centre/joining-instructions.html

Episode Transcript

Bryan (00:29):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the Pilot
Project Podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from the
pilots of the RCAF. Today, we'llbe sitting down for part 2 of
our chat with Dave Chamberlin,former CEO of Canadian Forces
Air Crew Selection Centre.Today, we'll be going over some
audience questions, especiallyfrom the Canadian Forces
subreddit, as well as some FAQsthat Dave and the folks at the
Centre get asked fairly often.If you missed part 1 of our

(00:52):
chat, you may wanna tune in toour previous episode before
listening to this one.
Without further ado, let's sitdown for part 2 of our talk with
Dave. So you mentioned thatsometimes you may not be
successful for your primarychoice, but you may have options
as, like, for example, an AEC orair combat systems officer. What
advice would you give tosomebody who selected as one of

(01:12):
those or who has the option totake one of those as their
career, but they still wanna bea pilot one day? Do you think
that they should try again, orshould they take that different
trade and hope to switchoccupations?

Dave (01:22):
That's a really, really good question because I'm not in
the personnel selectionbusiness. There's a whole trade
of folks who can deal with that.What I would say though, from,
from my experience and from whatI've seen, if you're willing to
accept making a commitment todoing, you know, at least sort
of an initial engagement on oneof those other trades. So as an

(01:45):
AEC or an Axle, and you're youcan live with that.

Bryan (01:48):
So like 5 years.

Dave (01:49):
So I'd say that's, that's probably fair. I wouldn't
necessarily go into one of thoseother trades expecting to be
able to in service select toPilot. And it should be noted, I
guess, that, when it comes tothe number of slots available
for pilots, it actually does getbroken down between in service

(02:12):
selection. So people who arealready CAF members versus ROTP
versus DEO. So it may be thatthere are slots open for people
coming in off the street, butthey've actually closed it to in
service selection for a periodof time.
So, yeah, we we've tested peoplein service select, so people who
are already members who'vesuccessfully passed and even
done quite well, but then beentold we won't take them as pilot

(02:34):
because in service selectionpilot slots are currently
closed. So I'd say just be verycareful with going down that
road unless you are at peace andhappy to pursue a career in that
alternate trade. That beingsaid, I know a very good number
of happy Axos and happy AACs. Soit might turn out to be
something that, you just hadn'tconsidered before and you really

(02:54):
enjoy doing, but I wouldn't gointo it expecting that you're
you're gonna be able to,necessarily automatically switch
over to pilot. Every case isdifferent.
I'd say it might get morecomplicated once you're already
enrolled in another trade.

Bryan (03:08):
Yeah. I think that's really good advice. We got very
similar advice from I had aprevious guest who was an axo
and did manage to make theswitch to pilot. But,
essentially, what he said was,don't take a trade that you're
aren't at peace being thattrade. Like, if if you don't
wanna be an axo and you'rethinking, well, this is just my
easy step to being a piloteventually, that's probably not

(03:28):
a good idea.
But if you think, hey, I coulddo that. Like, that could be
fun. And hopefully, maybe downthe road, I can make a change if
possible. That's then that mightbe something to consider. Does
that kinda make sense?

Dave (03:37):
Yeah. I'd say that's probably more true. And
alternatively, for people whoare for looking for something to
do while they're maybe waitingthat year, there's always the
reserves. I think, again,anecdotally, and I'm not an
expert and I would try to speakto someone before committing
down that road, but your reserveservice will be taken into
account for, you know, sort ofpension stuff, as well as your

(04:00):
reserve pay. So if somebody justwants to get the ball rolling,
that might be a safer option.
But I'd say just be very carefulabout, signing on a dotted line
for a trade that you're notcomfortable staying in for a
fairly extended period of time.

Bryan (04:15):
Yep. And and I think that that point you made about the
available slots is reallyimportant, and I just wanna
emphasize that for any listenerswho are thinking about this kind
of a situation because I havehad listeners and and people
reach out on the Canadian Forcessubreddit and various places who
have these questions like, hey.I don't get it. I did great on
aircrew selection. I had a verycompetitive file.

(04:36):
I've it's my 3rd year in a rowof not getting picked up.
Because I think they said theirscores are good for 5 years, or
maybe it was 3 years. I can'trecall.

Dave (04:43):
That's right. So your your your ASC score is good for 5

Bryan (04:46):
years. Yeah. And and they're saying, like, I'm
getting up to the point where myscores are gonna, expire. Why am
I not getting picked up? And thelike you said, it just really
depends on what slots the powersthat be decide to put into the
mix that year, and I'm sure theyhave some some kind of formula.
And, I mean, I'm sure there'sdeep policy reasons and things
that drive those decisions. Soyou never really know what's

(05:10):
gonna be open as far as inservice selection versus they're
typically, I believe, takingmore people off the streets than
they are from within themilitary.

Dave (05:20):
Yeah. Again, without having the numbers right in
front of me, but I'd I'd saythat that is fair to say based
on what I've seen. And And ifyou think about it, I can
understand why we might go thatway as a cast because if we've
already invested money intraining somebody to do
something else, it's probablynot in the public's best
interest to then turn around andnot I won't say throw away that
training, but like start themover. Because as you probably

(05:43):
know, there's no shortcuts justbecause you've done Axo. You're
not going to get through pilottraining any faster apart from
obviously your basic trainingand those things that are common
core.
So it could be that it's more inthe cast best, best interest to
recruit somebody fresh off thestreet and keep that other
person who's got experience intheir trade now in their current
trade. So again, just just aword of caution, anyone who

(06:04):
who's been told go ahead andjoin as an Axo and you can
change the pilot in a year. Iwouldn't necessarily believe
that that's true. I'd, Idefinitely weigh the decision
based on whether or not you'reyou're comfortable staying in as
whatever trade you join us.

Bryan (06:19):
Yeah, totally. I think that's very, very solid advice.
We have discussed how ageanecdotally may affect success
in certain age brackets. Onequestion I've had that I'd like
to address is, does being olderaffect your chances of being
selected if you've beensuccessful in completing aircrew
selection? So not how does ageaffect your chances of

(06:43):
successfully completing aircrewselection, but does it affect
your chances of being selected?

Dave (06:47):
No. The the short answer is, it's it's illegal to
discriminate based on on age.

Bryan (06:53):
Mhmm.

Dave (06:55):
So that doesn't factor in. It will affect your ability
perhaps to serve until, youknow, you've accumulated a more
robust pension, I'll say,because there is still a
compulsory retirement age. Butprovided you are under
compulsory retirement age, asfar as I know, I I don't get
into the policy when it comes toyou're over 50, but I'll say
for, like, a 40 some odd yearold, there's no there's no

(07:16):
impact.

Bryan (07:17):
My understanding is essentially as long as you have
enough time before compulsoryretirement age to complete your
contract, whatever thatmandatory service is at
nowadays.

Dave (07:26):
Yeah.

Bryan (07:27):
Is it 14 years?

Dave (07:30):
So the last I think I think what it is now and, again,
I I wouldn't quote me on this,but I think it's 10 years after
Wings for pilots.

Bryan (07:37):
Okay.

Dave (07:38):
So that, that would turn into that would be about 14
years probably by the time,you've gone through a couple of
years of base training and allyour, all your Wings training.

Bryan (07:47):
Yeah.

Dave (07:47):
I think it's, I think it's now up to 10 years. So I think
you're probably right. I thinkyou need enough time before CRA.
I just, I don't have the policyin front of me, so I wouldn't
want to go out and lie topeople.

Bryan (07:57):
Right. And CRA is compulsory retirement age is 65
now?

Dave (08:02):
Yeah. I think for for the vast majority case, it's 65. I
know there are a few differentcases. Like, I think chief law
officers, for example, it mightbe 60. But I think the the
majority cases, as far as Iknow, is still 65.

Bryan (08:14):
Okay. So, essentially, without getting too exact
because we don't know exactlywhat how the training timelines
and stuff work out, but if youhave enough time left before 65
to complete your contracts andtraining, then you're good to
go.

Dave (08:28):
That's right. And and I know they're probably asking
because other Air Forces dohave, fairly young cutoffs for
especially pilot training.

Bryan (08:36):
Yeah.

Dave (08:37):
I don't know the exact numbers, but I know the RAF and
US Air Force both have cutoffs.And I think it's in the, I want
to say thirties. If you haven'tbeen selected yet, you're not
eligible anymore. That's not thecase in Canada. You can you can
still be selected above that.

Bryan (08:52):
Okay. So good news for anyone out there who is looking
for a midlife or later There yougo. Career change as long as
you've got the time. How doeshaving previous flight
experience tend to affectsomeone's chances of success?

Dave (09:07):
I don't have any good, hard data on that, and it's sort
of hard to quantify whatprevious experience would mean.
I'd say you and I can both speakto, you know, how it will affect
your success downstream, right,having already had a commercial
multi IFRS license definitelymade, phase 2 and onward
training much easier. I don'tknow how much impact it would
actually have at the selectionlevel. So if anyone is looking

(09:31):
at going to aircrew selectionand thinking that they should
invest a bunch of time inflying, I'd say maybe don't. I
mean, if it's something you wantto do anyway, for sure, go for
it.
Flying is fun. But, I definitelywouldn't, you know, put myself
in debt or anything to try andup my chances at aircrew
selection. I think there arebetter ways to prepare.

Bryan (09:50):
Mhmm.

Dave (09:51):
Including what we talked about, some of the mental math
stuff or some of the apps thatare out there that help with
short term memory and whatever,kind of might be better
investments. But if you have theopportunity to fly, it certainly
doesn't hurt. And you maydiscover that flying is not for
you or flying is even more foryou than you ever thought. So
you're willing to work that muchharder.

Bryan (10:09):
That's a good point.

Dave (10:10):
But, I would, I definitely wouldn't go into huge amounts of
debt to try and get a pilot'slicense before joining. I think
we give people everything theyneed sort of from 0 to hero. So
walking in with no flyingexperience, I think, you'll
definitely have a goodopportunity. I don't I don't
think you'll be at a hugedisadvantage if you've never
flown.

Bryan (10:28):
Well, the system is designed to take somebody who's,
like, never been in an airplaneand make them into a pilot.

Dave (10:33):
Exactly. Exactly.

Bryan (10:35):
Okay. So now we'll move on to some questions asked by
our listeners in the CanadianForces subreddit. So how does
our aircrew selection compare toother nations' programs? Is it
similar to the Royal Air Forceor United States Air Force? And
do NATO nations collaborate onthe style of testing that's
done?

Dave (10:53):
That's a very good question. It is definitely very
close to what the RAFs dobecause, last I checked anyway,
we are essentiallyadministering, if not an
identical test, a very, verysimilar one to what the RAFs use
for their, their entryrequirements. I'm not that
familiar with what the Americansdo. I know they have sort of
similar testing methodologies.In terms of whether or not we

(11:14):
collaborate, I'd say wedefinitely exchange ideas and we
definitely have sort of staffvisits to other Air Forces where
our representatives from from 2Canadian Air Division who handle
all of our Air Force training,They'll go over to say Finland
and they'll take a look at theirprogram.
They'll go to the states,they'll take a look at their
program and, try to capture someof the best practices or bring

(11:35):
back the good ideas. We recentlyhad a visit from the Israeli air
force who aren't you know, notnecessarily, they're definitely
not NATO and are, but they'reinterested in our processes. So
we kind of showed them what wedid and they had some good
questions about, our testingmethodology. They obviously have
some different requirements, butthere's always good ideas to

(11:55):
exchange back and forth. So it'sdefinitely worth looking at what
our allies are doing.
But I think we have to becareful about just taking
somebody else's methodology andsaying, okay, this will work for
us too, because we definitelyhave different requirements in
the CAF than say the US AirForce would. We already talked
about how like the US Air Forcehad different gauge cutoffs
where they won't accept peopleanymore, whereas we do. So I
think our approach is tailoredto what Canada needs, but it

(12:17):
definitely mirrors a lot of whatour allies do.

Bryan (12:21):
Yeah. And I guess you have to keep in mind when you
say not just our needs aredifferent, but our realities are
different from various countriesin terms of population and
recruiting pool and all kinds ofdifferent factors that that kind
of factor into how we can makethis work.

Dave (12:37):
Yeah. That's absolutely true. Even some of our NATO
allies still have compulsorymilitary service, for example.
So they know that theircandidates are going to be 18 or
19 years old, with a high schooleducation, not having gone to
university yet, say, or maybethey have, but they, they maybe
have a more uniform entry, thanwe do. Whereas we take people
from all walks of life.

(12:57):
Again, it's just a reflection ofour societal values and and just
how we recruit and and who ourCAF members are.

Bryan (13:06):
The US Marine Corps, Coast Guard, and Navy all use a
short online test that takes 2to 3 hours to complete in place
of aircrew selection. Why do wefeel we need a longer process?
Is it more effective?

Dave (13:18):
So, yeah, good question. I I'm not really familiar with I
have heard sort of, a vague ideaof what they do and that they do
have some kind of onlinecomponent. I can't speak to
whether or not that's theirentire selection process or
whether they have other thingsgoing on. The value of doing a
short sort of online componentis obviously accessibility. It
means that people probably don'thave to travel.

(13:39):
It means you could probablyprocess more candidates more
quickly. I think what we wouldlose out on, I think there's
value to is the controlledtesting environment. Obviously,
if somebody's logging in fromhome, even without getting into,
you know, who's actually writingthe test, is it actually a
candidate? I'm sure they havecontrols for that, but I can't
necessarily control the roomthey're in and whether it's

(14:01):
temperature controlled orwhether they're able to focus
properly. Whereas with ourtesting system, everyone's in
the same room.
We know everyone's on an evenfeel going into it in terms of
the resources they have, interms of the peripherals we use.
So imagine we have a joystickand a set of pedals, and we
actually have a custom madekeyboard that has the buttons
that we need on it. And we knowthat it responds correctly. We

(14:23):
have control of whether or notit's calibrated properly, so we
can make sure that everyone's onan even, uneven keel doing that.
As well, the longer testing isprobably in better depths.
Again, I haven't looked exactlywhat the USMC or Navy use, but I
know I can say that our test isdefinitely validated for pilot
success downstream. I'd behesitant to say that we can go

(14:46):
ahead and shorten it to try andget more candidates through, you
know, unless we had a very, verygood reason to do that. Mhmm. I
do I do think our systemprovides the other benefit of
them coming to Trenton andgetting to speak with, you know,
real pilots, real ACs, hopefullysoon Axel as well, and getting
that opportunity to talk to usabout what the, what the life is

(15:08):
like. Because at the end of theday, we aren't recruiters at the
selection center, but we arestill part of that recruiting
process.
So we are still very interestedin attracting, good quality
candidates. I think that givingus that FaceTime with the
candidates gives us opportunityto to talk to them, as opposed
to being that more isolatedonline experience where they

(15:29):
wouldn't get the the face toface interaction. Or like I
said, just the the controlledbaseline of what they're going
to run the test.

Bryan (15:35):
Yeah. You know, something that also struck me as you were
talking about the differencesthere was they are dealing with,
as we kinda mentioned before,like, a far larger recruiting
pool. So I guess if you thinkabout the size of the facilities
that would be required and thestaff that would be required to
process and to have all thesepeople come through would be,

(15:55):
like, immense just for theiryearly recruiting. So it might
make sense for them to doinitial testing online, whereas
we can kind of because we have asmaller pool of not just of not
just a smaller recruiting pool,but also smaller needs in terms
of the amount of candidateswe're letting through, we can
afford to take that time andthat in person have that in

(16:16):
person approach.

Dave (16:18):
Yeah. That's definitely a good point. Again, this is all
just, you know, Dave Chamberlainspeculation. But, I'd say the
other side of it too, though, isthat because our training
resources downstream are maybeless available. Again, we are a
smaller Air Force, so, I thinkwe, we are trying to front load
selection and front loadtraining at the lowest possible,

(16:40):
I'll use the least expensivepossible level.
So investing more heavily at theselection and being careful
about who we choose and theninvesting in a phase one on a
relatively simple andinexpensive to operate aircraft
and really making sure that thepeople who get through that are
properly prepared for the moreand more complex and expensive

(17:00):
machines that they'll fly later.I think it's probably important
that they get, it also ensuresthat we're not wasting anybody's
time, be it either the cast timeand training somebody who's not
going to make it or the memberstime because it doesn't do
anyone any good to get them allthe way through to almost their
operational functional pointwhere they're, they're just
about to get an operationalairplane and then they're

(17:21):
unsuccessful because really allalong, they probably shouldn't
have been there, but they sortof managed to just kind of keep
making it through. And then,unfortunately, they now wasted
maybe years of their lives,pursuing something that wasn't
going to pan out in the 1stplace.

Bryan (17:35):
And 1,000,000 of dollars.

Dave (17:37):
And and not to mention that. Yeah. The minor detail of
a of a few 1,000,000 taxpayerdollars.

Bryan (17:42):
Yeah. Absolutely. So we already know that success on
aircrew selection is correlatedwith success in flight training.
But have there been studies onwhether scores in 1 or more of
the 7 cognitive categorieslisted in the after test report
are correlated with success incertain types of airframes or
missions? For example, docertain cognitive areas benefit
a fast jet pilot specifically?

Dave (18:04):
Yeah. So it's a really good question and it's one that
the air force also wantsanswered, but we want it
answered in a sort ofacademically rigorous and valid
way. So work is ongoing, tocontinue to validate the testing
that we're doing. As of today, Idon't have sort of good
information on that because thetesting just hasn't progressed
that far. Part of that is, isjust the fact that the testing

(18:27):
isn't hasn't been aroundnecessarily long enough to
compare it against somebody'swhole career.
So we might, as of now, be ableto start to address whether or
not, those candidates who'vegone through on this test are
successful at the operationaltraining units. But whether or
not they're successful at themore advanced levels throughout
their career, again, we wouldn'thave any data on that yet.

(18:47):
Certainly not enough data pointsto kind of come up with a robust
conclusion on that. The shortanswer is we don't have good
information. We basically haveour intuition and we can look at
what our allies, again, like Isaid, the the RAF run a very
similar test.
They probably have some betterdata than we do. We're working
on getting that information fromthem, but we don't we just

(19:08):
haven't had enough time tostudy, the data to come up with
a really good answer to thatquestion.

Bryan (19:13):
Okay. That makes sense. It's interesting to hear that
that is something they'relooking into, and it'll be very
interesting to hear what comesof that. Maybe something we can
follow-up on in, a couple yearswith whoever's in those
positions at the time. Yeah.

Dave (19:29):
For sure.

Bryan (19:32):
Has it ever been necessary to increase or
decrease what a passing scoreis?

Dave (19:37):
Again, a really good question. Something that is
being looked at, specificallyfor one of the trades. I won't
open up which one, but, shortanswer is yes and no. So it's
not something that's donelightly. It's not something
that's done often.
Right now there is a reviewprocess underway. I guess I can

(19:58):
I can say it's the AEC Tradespecifically, and that's based
on feedback from the AEC schoolsaying that they would maybe
like the bar raised a little bitso that we're doing a little bit
more filtering in our endbecause what they're finding are
candidates are showing up andthey're not successful? And
right now, so before we ever do,before we ever move that bar, we

(20:21):
want a validation study done,which is a can be a lengthy
process, very academic, and theywant lots of data and they want
to be able to correlateeverything properly. So we don't
do it willy nilly. Absolutelynot.
But, it is a valid and a goodquestion because we are actually
currently, looking at the scoreand the bar for the AC trade,

(20:42):
possibly having to move up alittle bit, just to give them
the results that they wanted thetrade to cut down on downstream
failures. I'd say for for pilot,it hasn't changed anywhere. I
did go back and look, and I I Idon't see any evidence of it of
it changing anytime recentlyanyway. Certainly not since our
validation study for pilot wascompleted. But once the
validation came in, I think thatthat sort of locked in the bar

(21:04):
for pilot and it'll stay therefor, until someone can can show
that there's value in moving itin terms of us getting a better
result.
But I think right now we'repretty well dialed in on the
pilot side.

Bryan (21:14):
That makes sense.

Dave (21:14):
But, as I said, the AEC side is is definitely being
looked at very carefully rightnow because there has been an
ask about whether or not wecould, we could change the bar.
And that may mean a couple ofthings. It's not as simple as
just maybe raising a bar becauseas discussed, there are multiple
domains, different, differenttests can be weighted
differently. So part of thatprocess will be looking at

(21:37):
whether or not different testsshould be weighted differently
or whether or not certain testsneed their own individual cutoff
score. Even though maybe acandidate overall did well
enough to meet the minimumcutoff, there may be certain
tests that are so importantwhere if they didn't make a
certain bar, then we'd look atmaybe them being disqualified.
But again, that's that's a veryrigorous process that takes,

(22:00):
takes quite a bit of time on theorder of years.

Bryan (22:04):
Mhmm. Two takeaways for me from that. One is, first of
all, it's a good thing that wehave a responsive program where
we can where we can adjustthings as is being requested for
AECs. The second takeaway,though, is it's good that we
aren't doing it willy nilly. Ithink the the intent behind the
question was people werewondering, do we change this
based on our needs within thetrade versus based on results?

(22:26):
And it sounds like to me that wedefinitely don't do it based on
anything but results. And itmakes sense that we wouldn't be
changing the scores, forexample, for pilot. Because for
one thing, we're never gonnaneed to lower the score to, say,
allow more people in. Because inthe pilot world, you're never
hurting for applicants. There'sway more people who wanna be
pilots than we have a need forpilots.

(22:48):
And and this is myinterpretation anyhow. And as in
terms of raising it, that wouldhappen if, like, you were just
discussing downstream, we wereseeing, like, a ton of failures
and, like, okay, maybe we're notweeding out the people that need
to be weeded out, basically. Butwe're not seeing that. So,
therefore, we don't adjust thescores.

Dave (23:08):
Yeah. And to add to that, what what I'd say is and this
is, you know, me speculating, Iguess, a little bit. But if we
were to lower the bar, say, justto get more candidates through
selection, I think you just seethose failures pop up down
stream.

Bryan (23:20):
Yeah.

Dave (23:20):
So it wouldn't get us more winged graduates. In terms of
raising the bar, I think wealready take care of that by the
fact that you can pass throughthrough selection, but that only
gets you to the next selectionstep. So if we have a lack of
spots and an overabundance ofsuccessful applicants, we don't
necessarily take all thoseapplicants. We just take the
best of those applicants. But Ithink we mentioned already, your

(23:42):
test is good for 5 years.
So you could still be selectedlater on when maybe there is,
there are more slots open basedon your successful test though.
We wouldn't be doing anyone anyfavors either by raising the bar
because you might, it might beshort sighted. You might be
cutting people out who otherwisewe would have been willing to
take, but at that moment, maybewe didn't need them. I think by
leaving the bar where it wasvalidated as being a good tool

(24:04):
for screening out downstreamfailures, we leave the door open
for for candidates' supply. Andeven if we don't need them now,
we we might still wanna takethem later.

Bryan (24:13):
Candidates and staff are required to sign a nondisclosure
agreement to attend or work ataircrew selection. What is the
primary purpose of this? And doyou feel it is effective given
the amount of preparationmaterial that exists for aircrew
selection?

Dave (24:26):
Yeah. So definitely a fair question. The non disclosure
agreement is a requirement fromour software vendor, because it
is commercial intellectualproperty. So they want to
protect their commercialinterests, which is fair enough.
And they don't want their testagainst being duplicated or or
being invalidated by informationbeing released.

(24:46):
So whether or not it'seffective, I think you you kind
of pointed to the fact that,yes, there's a lot of
information out there. Soeffective, maybe, maybe not.
What it does prevent is somebodyplunking the entire test down on
the Internet somewhere. I don'tknow if that would ever happen,
but it definitely makes it muchmore likely or much less likely
rather. And it gives the vendora recourse if I guess that ever

(25:07):
happened.
It'd be very difficult to dothat because our testing
equipment is all air gapped. Wecan't hack into it because it's
not connected to the Internet oranything, but it just protects
the commercial interests of thesoftware vendor. And I'd say if
you were to violate the NDA,you'd be far more likely to be
hearing from their lawyers thanfrom ours. But that goes for us
as well. So we we as you said,the staff members are also not

(25:30):
allowed to to go and release allthe information of of what's in
the test either.
So and I think that does help toat least give some protection to
the integrity of the test. Andlike I said, it avoids the the
whole test being released forfor someone to go and and run 17
times before they show up fortesting there.

Bryan (25:46):
I think another aspect of it too, you mentioned protecting
the interests of the vendor.That in turn also means that we
can attract high qualityvendors. Because if we don't
have those rules in place, whatcompany is gonna say, hey. We
spent tons of money developingthis process, but go ahead and
release it and just basicallymake it so that all of our

(26:08):
patented work is out there foranyone else to use or to to
basically invalidate. I mean,you wouldn't be able to attract
anyone to that contract.

Dave (26:16):
Yeah. And that's a really good point, and I I I'm almost
positive. In fact, I am. We'renot the only, organization
within the CAF or DND who havethe sort of proprietary software
and NDA type relationship withour vendors. There's lots of
computer based training, thatfolks will see throughout their
phases of flying training thatis generated by civilian

(26:37):
companies and is theirintellectual property.
So that's just something we livewith now. And I think, as you
said, it allows us to ensure wecan have good relationships with
our commercial partners whoprovide us with services that we
cannot, They do things for usthat we can't do ourselves Mhmm.
Or at least not costeffectively. So it is important
to protect our relationshipswith, our civilian partners.

Bryan (26:58):
Okay. So next, we're gonna go over some FAQs that get
asked often at the Air ForceSelection Center by candidates.
What does a pilot trainee dobetween flying courses?

Dave (27:09):
That can be a really varied experience depending on
where you are and sort of whatyou ask for. But typically, you
find yourself on, OJT, so on onthe job training, often within
either a staff, for environmentor on a squadron. And ideally
you'll be exposed to what lifeis like, you know, the pilot or

(27:30):
Axle or AC. In reality, we wetend to integrate our OJTs into
our squadron probably more thanmore than you'd expect, and they
end up doing real jobs. So Yep.
For example, we we have OJTswho, right now, we have one
who's just about to go on flyingtraining. And, he's a key member
of our plan staff and is helpingto manage upcoming exercises and

(27:55):
and coordinate things for us.And, I mean, that experience is
gonna be valuable to him laterafter he completes his flying
training. So it's definitely notwasted effort. The side benefit
for for those members is thatthey they tend to be able to
like, our OJTs, anytime theywant to go flying along, they
can just ask and we'll usuallylet them go.
So it's an opportunity to goflying and if they want to, they

(28:16):
can definitely go see firsthand,you know, the real job and
people are usually happy to talkto them about, how things are,
once you get through your flyingtraining. They can also get lots
of, lots of solicited andunsolicited advice about what to
do during their flying training.

Bryan (28:33):
Yeah, for sure.

Dave (28:34):
Oh, yeah. They do tend to get integrated into, various
organizations, especially ifthey're going to be there a
while. Depending on the tradeand depending on other things,
they may end up for a couple ofmonths being on OJT. So it's a
chance for them to to actuallyprovide something useful. If
they're only around for a fewweeks, then we tend to focus on
just letting them have a bit ofa good time, go flying, you

(28:56):
know, try to motivate them to towork hard in their their
upcoming trainings so they wannacome back, especially if a
candidate has a good personalityfor the unit they're at.
You know, different differenttrades and different fleets are
looking for different differentthings in in their sort of
people. So if we think you'll bea really good C130J pilot crew
member and you'll get along witheverybody and and work hard,

(29:18):
then we'll usually try to, youknow, try to convince them that
they wanna come back to us. Weuse it as a bit of an
opportunity for us to pitchourselves to potential high
caliber, people.

Bryan (29:29):
Yeah. For sure. It's like an opportunity to kind of scout,
scout the town

Dave (29:33):
Exactly. Yeah. Essentially.

Bryan (29:36):
How often does an RCAF pilot fly?

Dave (29:39):
So that really depends on fleets that you're on. And it
also depends a little bit onyour stage of life, your stage
of career, but I'm sure mostpeople are interested in their
first tour on squadron. Right?So for the average line captain,
depending on what we're doing asa unit. So right now we have one
sort of perpetual deployment wegot we have going on called,

(30:02):
reassurance.
We have a detachment inPrestwick. So when when somebody
shows up at the squadron aftertheir, initial C130 training,
They'll be around for a littlewhile. They'll probably fly, it
really depends, anywhere from acouple of times a month to a
couple of times a week. Forlocal trips, they'll generally
get a couple of trips away everymonth or 2, which could be like

(30:24):
a week or 2 at a time. Butwithin their 1st year, they can
expect to deploy to Prestwickwhere they'll be flying
basically every day.
So it kind of depends on whatyou're doing. I think almost
everybody would like to flymore, than they do, but I'd say
our average new line captain onthe J model right now is
probably getting somewherebetween 3 400 hours a year.

Bryan (30:45):
That's pretty solid.

Dave (30:46):
Yeah. And whether or not 3 or 400 hours is a lot really
depends on the mix of whetherit's what we call straps. So
you're you're going away onstrategic sort of airlift
missions where you're takingstuff from a to b. Those can be
longer trips in terms of hoursor whether you're doing sort of
local training, which is calleda J Trainer, where you're in our
local area where you're doingthat, those tactical skill sets

(31:06):
where you might only log 2 or 3hours that day, but you
definitely probably got a lotout of it.

Bryan (31:12):
But those are intense hours.

Dave (31:14):
Exactly. It's a lot of planning. It's a lot of
intensity. You wouldn't want todo 10 hours of that in one day.
You should avoid it.
Yeah. Whereas the Strat stuffcan be you definitely can end up
in some interesting places, butit tends to be sort of
interesting for the departure asyou get out of there and then
interesting on the arrival asyou land. And it could be a lot
of, just chatting about yourplans for the weekend, as you're

(31:37):
out there cruise. Yeah. Sodefinitely different kinds of
flying and and some peoplereally, really like doing strat
flying where it's you get to goplaces and and see different
things and other people try toavoid that and prefer to try and
fly lots of tap.
And there's definitelyopportunities for both. I know
again, other fleets. So if youwere an instructor in Moose Jaw,

(31:57):
you could probably expect to fly2, maybe 3 times every day.

Bryan (32:01):
Yeah.

Dave (32:02):
At various times because they're doing those high reps.
They're shorter trips, butthey're they're definitely
flying a lot. And like you said,high intensity.

Bryan (32:07):
Yeah. Those are busy days.

Dave (32:08):
So it really depends on where you find yourself and, are
they the individual roles thatyou're you find yourself in?

Bryan (32:15):
Yeah, for sure. I mean, you can only give answers from
your own experience andknowledge, right?

Dave (32:19):
Yeah, that's right. I could say like when I was flying
at 419, it was a lot more likethe Moose Jaw experience as an
instructor at 419. You could flyif you wanted to definitely
every day, if not more like 2times a day. Whereas on the
Hornet, it was a little bitless, but again, more planning,
more intensity.

Bryan (32:34):
Mhmm.

Dave (32:35):
And if you're going on doing a training sortie on a
Hornet, there's a lot more moneyinvolved. So a little bit more
deliberate in the planning anddebriefing. And so a 1 and a
half hour flight on a Hornetmight be a 12 hour day.

Bryan (32:46):
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Can a pilot trainee bring their
family with them on training?

Dave (32:52):
So again, very case by case. It is definitely possible.
At least I can speak to my ownexperience. I was common law
when I went to Moose Jaw. So Iwas actually posted to Moose
Jaw.
I was able to move my spousewith me. Whether or not that's
something you would want to dois, you know, it's a family
discussion because Moose Jaw,you may only be there for 5
months, and then you're movingon to somewhere else for your

(33:14):
next phase of training. Sowhether it's, in your family's
best interest to to move thatfrequently is maybe up to you. I
will say I've heard of otherpeople being posted for, you
know, say to Cold Lake for theirmore advanced training and then
being unsuccessful with thattraining and that having some,
definitely some downsides to it.So I'd say it is it is possible.
There are definitely cases wherepeople bring their families, but

(33:35):
I think it may or may notdepending on resources available
at the time that you're goingthrough and what the policies of
the day are because it is goingto be somewhat dependent on how
much money there is available tomove folks around.

Bryan (33:47):
Mhmm.

Dave (33:47):
And then the, you know, the need to move you versus
somebody else who needs a fullposting who's already
operationally functional versussomeone who's essentially a
student who's going to bebouncing around bases for Yeah.
For a couple of years. So it'sdefinitely something to think
about. And depending on whenexactly you're joining and
exactly what route you're going,like if you're going to go

(34:08):
through Moose Jaw or if you'replanning to say you're going to
be helos only and you only everwant to go to Portage that might
have different implications forwhether or not you can actually
get posted. I will definitelysay for the shorter courses like
your and for like your basictraining you cannot bring your
family with you.
There are definitely courseswhere postings are heavily
restricted or or impossible, butit is possible for some of the

(34:29):
longer courses, depending on thefleet and and sort of what the
what the resources areavailable.

Bryan (34:34):
The other thing when it it comes to places like Moose
Jaw, I think, is you have toconsider if that's the best
thing for everybody. There'sthe, can you do it? And then
there's, like, the should you doit? Yeah. Which is a whole
different discussion, of course.
But it's a very intense course.Your time is almost entirely
taken up by it. If you startdevoting too much of your time
to other things, you're gonnastart to really struggle within

(34:56):
your flight training. So that'sa whole other discussion, but
it's probably something worth ifyou're asking this question,
it's probably also something tothink about.

Dave (35:04):
For sure. And it's, I think it's important to keep
perspective. Phase 2 issomewhere between 4 6 months,
depending on the time of yearyou do it in. So if you, if you
just think about it as adeployment and you will have
deployments more than likely inyour career and treat it as
such. And maybe a better way tothink about it where, hey, I'm
just going away temporarily.
It'll be 6 months. But then asyou said, you're 100% focused on

(35:27):
what you're doing there andyou're more likely to be
successful versus maybe bringingyour family along, which may or
may not be the best.

Bryan (35:34):
Mhmm. So the final FAQ we have is can a RCAF pilot change
aircraft after their initialtour?

Dave (35:43):
Yes. I'm living proof that it can be done. Again, this is a
case by case thing. So a coupleof things would have to happen.
There's always anytime adecision like that is made,
there's a needs of the member.
They'll look best for themember. That's what's best for
the CAF and the needs of theCAF. Right? And these are all
things that need to be takeninto account. So, you know, it

(36:03):
has to be to a fleet that needsyou and you have to be coming
from a fleet that can afford tolet you go.
And again, that's going to beweighed against, you know, what
what you need. If you have aspecial personal situation, that
means that if you're let's sayyou're in one area of the
country and you're very, veryfar away from your support
system and maybe you have adifficult sort of family

(36:24):
situation with kids and that andsay, hey, look, I'm at the point
where, you know, this isn'tworkable anymore. You might be
able to make a request based onthat and say, look, if you move
me to, say, Trenton, I don'thave family nearby. I'll be that
much more deployable. I won'thave any of these family impacts
anymore.
That could be a reason to do it.There are other ways to switch
fleets. Some folks will go fromfrom particular community and

(36:45):
they'll go do an instructionaltour and say Moose Jaw. And then
that's probably the easiest wayto get it done in terms of
changing to a whole differentfleet. So to go from like
helicopters, you wanna be afighter pilot, you go do a
little bit of time in Moose Jawand now now your previous fleet
has lived without you for acouple of years as it is.
They might be a lot more willingto sort of let you go to another

(37:07):
another community. So anotheravenue. So like a lot of things
and like we talked about withjoining one trade expecting to
be a pilot later, I would saydefinitely be at peace with
whatever fleet you end up on andand try to make the the best of
it. And I I know people who arehappy on every fleet in the in
the CAF. I think it's largely amatter of attitude.

Bryan (37:25):
Absolutely.

Dave (37:26):
So don't count on it, but it is possible if, you know, at
a later date that, there is aneed or a want. It's really not
impossible. There's no rulepreventing it.

Bryan (37:35):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So now we'll finish off with a
few questions about your time atthe selection center. What was
your best day at the selectioncenter?

Dave (37:44):
Well, the selection center is is a bit of a steady state
machine. I I won't say it'sGroundhog Day because that makes
it sound negative. It's actuallya good place to work. But I'd
say the best days at theSelection Center were the days
where we had high success andall the debriefs were, you know,
enjoyable and we're giving goodnews. Obviously being, being at

(38:05):
the selection center and givingdebriefs involves a lot of bad
news and a lot of, you know,dealing with people who are, you
know, maybe maybe seeing theirdream crushed or

Bryan (38:15):
Yeah.

Dave (38:15):
Or setback. So definitely it can definitely take a toll.
So the best days, yeah, I'll sayare the days where you don't
have to debrief any failures andyou get to tell everyone that,
they're getting the best newsthey've they've probably ever
had and big smiles andeverything. But I I will say
overall, working at theselection center, every day was
great. There's a really goodteam there.
Maybe partly because it's asmall team, so everybody kind of

(38:35):
knows each other and it makesfor a really, close knit team of
people who, you can go for lunchtogether and laugh together and
have a good time. And, they'reall folks who are sort of down
down the road a little bit intheir careers. They've got a
couple of tours under theirbelt. Everyone knows what they
need to do and they and theyjust get it done and they're

(38:56):
total professionals so it makesit a really pleasant place to
work.

Bryan (39:00):
Now we've kind of touched on this, but in 30 seconds or
less, why would a pilot everwant to do a ground tour? What
did you find the pros were tobeing in that situation?

Dave (39:09):
Yeah. So it's a good question because I think a lot
of, pilots, especially at the,you know, as they should be at
the very beginning of theircareers, just want to fly. And
that's great. And, I think for 1or 2 tours, which is pretty
normal, 1 or 2 back to backflying tours initially is great
and is what guys can expect. Ithink by the end though of 8

(39:34):
years of continuous, especiallyif you're a frontline squadron
or maybe even a Moose Jaw whereyou're flying a couple of times
a day as an instructor, You'veworked a lot of long days for a
lot of years in a row.
And whether they realize it ornot, when folks get posted to a
Ground job, I think there's alittle bit of a decompression
period of a few weeks or monthswhere they're not really sure

(39:54):
what to do with themselves in an8 to 4 job. And then you can you
can see when they when the whenthey kind of realize that, hey,
I can have a life now. And, Iknow for a fact because I've
I've had some family members,you know, comment, but the
family members can see it too.It's like, wow. You know,
they're home for dinner everynight now and they can see the
kids off to school and we canplan stuff on a weekend and know

(40:16):
that even without a leaf pastthem, like, that's not gonna get
interrupted.
So there's a great work lifebalance that comes with being in
a lot of ground jobs. One groundjob that I did was like the duty
operations officer at WingOperations when I first came to
Trenton. And part of the beautyof that job is it was about 12
or so shifts a month and longershifts averaging about 12 hours

(40:38):
a day. So you're still puttingin the same number of hours if
you worked 8 to 4, but you did12 shifts a month and you had
the rest of your month off. Youhad 17 or 18 days where, you
know, you just you could makeplans and it was great and the
schedule came out a month aheadof time and it was all stable.
Or as anyone who's on an OpsSquadron knows that you can't
even confirm plans sometimes 2weeks ahead of time, depending

(40:58):
on what's going on, who you are,what your goals are. Yeah. You
might have a really hard timecommitting, like if your mom
asks you, Hey, can you guys comeover for dinner next 3 Sundays
from now? And you're gonna well,I'll let you know the Saturday
before.

Bryan (41:10):
Yeah. Yeah.

Dave (41:11):
And that's that's definitely a reality of life on
an Ops Squadron, whereas that'susually not the case in a ground
job. Usually ground jobs arevery steady. So there's that
side of it. The other side ofit, I'd say is, and I think we
were talking earlier about itallows you to sort of peek
behind the curtain. So dependingon the ground job you're in,
maybe now you're in a ground jobthat's in more of an ops
headquarters and you're you getto see the other side of the

(41:33):
coin whereas you used to be onthe end of the web just reacting
to what the headquarters istelling you to do.
It allows you to sort of gainsome perspective on the reasons
why And it allows you to bringthat when you do return to
flying, return to the AutoSquadron later, you can come
back with that understanding ofsort of how things work and
maybe some of the reasons why.So whether or not you'd enjoy
that part of the process, Idon't know. But, I think the

(41:56):
squadron benefits when we dosend someone to a ground job
like that and then bring themback. They can inject that sort
of understanding of what'shappening, in the background.

Bryan (42:05):
Yeah. I like that. Those are really solid reasons. And
like we said, we've touched onthis earlier, but it's always
been my philosophy. Or Ishouldn't say always, but in
recent years, I've realized thevalue in a ground tour for a
pilot.

Dave (42:17):
Yeah. For sure.

Bryan (42:18):
So we're down to our last few questions. We always ask
these questions. What is themost important thing you do to
keep yourself ready for yourjob?

Dave (42:26):
That's a good question because my stage of life being a
little, a little more senior, alot of my job is now sort of
running of squadron and therunning of operations, but I'm
still ultimately liable to belike I'm an instructor pilot and
an officer aircraft commanderand need to sort of maintain a
deployable readiness officer. Sothe most important thing that I

(42:47):
do that's outside of sort of thebare or the daily doing of my
core job is to actually forcemyself to stay in the books. So
I think it's important maybe toand this is more for people on
Squadron so I don't know howmany of your listeners will
relate, but finishing your pilottraining and finishing your type
course is not the end ofstudying. It's just it's the end

(43:08):
of a phase of training but thestudying never stops. So

Bryan (43:10):
Mhmm.

Dave (43:11):
Yeah. I'd say getting getting in the books on my own
time is probably the mostimportant thing I do to maintain
for my own readiness to do myreal job which outside of my day
to day is is to deploy and andgo conduct operations.

Bryan (43:23):
Yeah. That's interesting what you said about once you
finish your flight training,that's the end of a phase,
essentially. I know I waspersonally I don't know if I
could say surprised exactly, butI don't necessarily think I
expected to do the amount ofstudying that I did once I was
on an operational squadron. Andcertainly, while I was training

(43:44):
on the Aurora, I thought, okay,this makes sense. Like, I'm
still in training.
This is still a training course.But then I was a first officer,
and I okay. Well, now I'mtraining to upgrade. So I've got
a ton of studying to do onsystems and limits and
procedures. And then, okay,well, now I'm training to be a
crew commander.
So, now I need to understandtactics and procedures and how
to mentor a first officer. Andthen and then okay. Well, now

(44:08):
I've been doing that for longenough. Now I'm qualified as a
crew commander. But now I reallyneed to start reviewing the
systems and things again becauseit's been a while since I was
making myself an expert in that.
And it just keeps it's just acycle that's ongoing.

Dave (44:19):
Yeah. Definitely. There's never time to be complacent.
Yeah. And information changes.
I think every fleet gets new ordifferent capabilities over
time. And so if you ever letyourself fall too far out of the
books, you'll you'll end up findfinding that you're falling
behind.

Bryan (44:35):
And rules change and things too, right, over time?
Exactly. Like flight flyingrules change and policies and
procedures change and all thatkind of stuff.

Dave (44:41):
Yeah. Definitely.

Bryan (44:44):
What do you think makes a good pilot candidate?

Dave (44:47):
So I think a good pilot candidate is somebody who a)
really wants to be there. Ithink you could be very, very
capable, but if the motivationisn't there, I think just the
sheer amount of work that needsto be done to get through the
training, will probablyoverwhelm you and you probably
won't be successful. Sodefinitely a good mental
attitude, good desire to bethere, good self motivator

(45:11):
because I don't think that yourinstructors should be more
interested in your success thanyou are. So you need to be self
motivating for sure. Lots ofgood instructors out there,
don't get me wrong, but theywill they should only work as
hard as you do to get youthrough.
So somebody who can selfmotivate is very important and
somebody who is disciplined. Sowhat I mean by that is just able

(45:32):
to sort of prioritize theirtime, able to force themselves
to study, even though I'd muchrather go out for lunch with my
friends on a Sunday, but I'vegot a I've got a flight
tomorrow, so now I've got tostay home and study here. And
that that's definitely truethroughout training. It remains
true once once you hit the thesquadron though. Once you hit a
squadron, you're gonna have tobe self disciplined because

(45:54):
there's no way that, you know,the the majors and supervisors
are gonna have time to babysitthe the, you know, the new
captain who's just posted him.
They need to be where they needto be on time. They need to do
their reading and do their ownstudying. No one's gonna push
them to do it. So if they're notable to be disciplined and just
do it on their own, they maysuccessfully get through all of

(46:15):
their training, but they mayultimately sort of fizzle out
when they hit the squadron ifthey're not able to do that on
their own and have thatdiscipline.

Bryan (46:23):
Yeah, nobody's going to be holding your hand through the
process once you get to asquadron.

Dave (46:27):
And I think the third thing I'd say is, especially if
you're going to what the vastmajority of our, aircrew
positions are in a crew cockpit,meaning not single seat, meaning
you're always going to have todeal with other people. So you
need some reasonably goodinterpersonal skills. You need
to be able to deal with conflictin a professional but in a

(46:49):
diffusing way. So if you don'tget along with somebody, you
still need to be able to flywith them for, you know, maybe
hours on end for days in a row.So So if you're not the kind of
person who's able to to kind ofmake those bridges and and has a
good personality for justgetting along with people, I
think, we've seen some folksstruggle who are just maybe not
the best personality to be in acrew environment where you are

(47:10):
very close.
You're having to work veryclosely together. So that's not
always true if you're going to asingle seat. So like a fighter
cockpit, maybe it's less true.But again, then you're still on
squadron with people.

Bryan (47:20):
You're still a team.

Dave (47:20):
Those interpersonal skills, you're still a team. So
if you're not a good teamplayer, then you might you might
struggle a little more than youneed to.

Bryan (47:28):
Yeah. Yeah. I definitely agree with, all those points. So
our final question is if youwere to run into someone today
who was about to attend aircrewselection, what would your
advice to them be?

Dave (47:40):
Get a good night sleep. If you are just about to, to hit
the selection center, there'snot much you can change in a
couple of days beforehand. Soyeah, really focus on rest and
focus on getting good sleep. Soyou're as sharp as you can be
when you show up on day 1 andtake a deep breath. The test
works.
If your abilities are there andyou show up well rested, you're

(48:03):
gonna be fine. So if I wastalking to somebody a year
beforehand, I'd say, you know,get on Google, research some
apps that can be helpful, workon your mental math skills, do
all that work, and work hard atit and do it every day. But But
then, like I said, in a coupleof days or the week beforehand,
just try to relax, get on a goodsleep schedule. If you're not an
early riser, maybe forceyourself to get up early, early

(48:25):
to rise and early to bed forthose few days beforehand so
that you're not disadvantagedwhen you get there. Mhmm.
Because fatigue is definitelygoing to have an impact on your
success. So I'd say if there'sanything you can control on
those days before, like, just inthose for a couple of days
before your test, focus on sleepand nutrition and just being as
or as ready as you can, like,physically.

Bryan (48:46):
Okay. I think that's really solid advice. Okay, Dave.
I think that does it for ourchat. I really wanna thank you
for your time today.
I know you're a busy guy and,really appreciate you taking
some time of your day today to,be here with us. Thank you.

Dave (48:58):
Okay. Thank you, Brian, for the opportunity. I
appreciate the chance to, to geta message out to folks and
hopefully, arm them withknowledge that they're more
successful coming forward. Iwill send you those links to,
those couple of web pages that Ithink are really important for
candidates to check out. And,good luck to everyone who is
showing up to aircrew selectionin, the next little while.

Bryan (49:18):
Alright. Right on, man. Thank you. Alright. That wraps
up part 2 of our chat with DaveChamberlain about aircrew
selection.
For our next episode, we'll sitdown with Ben, a special
operations forces operator whodecided to switch to pilot.
We'll talk about why he made theswitch, what his experience has
been like on phase 1 flighttraining, and what his successes
and challenges have been so faron the next episode of the pilot

(49:40):
project podcast. Do you have anyquestions or comments about
anything you've heard in thisepisode? Would you or someone
you know make a great guest? Doyou have a great idea for an
episode of the show?
You can reach out to us at thepilot project podcast
atgmail.com or on all socialmedia at atpodpilotproject. As
always, we'd like to thank youfor listening today and ask you

(50:00):
for your help with the big threethat's like and follow us on
social media, share with yourfriends, and follow and rate us
5 stars wherever you get yourpodcasts. That's all for now.
Thanks for listening. Keep theblue side up. See you.