Episode 40: The Knight: The Fighter Force and the CF-188 Hornet - Fred

What is it like to fly a CF-188 Hornet? What does it feel like to break the sound barrier? How do our pilots stack up against friendly partners in exercises? How physically demanding is flying a fighter? 

Today we sit down for a chat with Fred "Penguin" Roy to talk all things CF-18. Fred is a former Reg Force fighter pilot who now flies as an airline pilot for Air Transat, while still flying the CF-18 as a pilot in the Reserve Force.

Episode Transcript

Bryan (00:29):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at The Pilot
Project Podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from the
pilots of the RCAF. I'm yourhost, Brian Morrison. With me
today is my good friend, FredPinguinroy. Fred, welcome to the
show, and thanks so much forbeing here.

Fred (00:42):
Thanks, Brian. It's, it's great seeing you after all these
years, man.

Bryan (00:44):
Absolutely. Alright. So let's go over Fred's bio. Fred
received his pilot wings in 2017and later graduated from his
fighter pilot course in ColdLake in 2022. He was then posted
to 433 Tactical Fighter Squadronin Bagotville, Quebec flying the
CF 18 Hornet.
Part of Fred's fighter lead intraining included going to Euro
NATO Joint Jet Pilot TrainingProgram, or N JEPT, at Shepard

(01:07):
Air Force Base, Texas, flyingthe T-38C Talon. After After
completing his training in 2022on the CF 18, he filled
subsequent roles at his squadronas a combat ready wingman and
training officer. During thattime, Fred has conducted
domestic NORAD operations andflown in support of a few
international exercises inEurope and the United States. So
Fred, having worked with yourdad, I have a potential idea of

(01:28):
the answer, but where didaviation start for you?

Fred (01:30):
Yeah. That's right, Brian. You know you know very well
that, my father was a a pilot inthe air force, still is a pilot
in the, RCAF. He flew the CP 140Aurora in Greenwood. And he also
did a bit of work for a fewyears as a civilian pilot,
airline pilot.
So for me, I was actually bornin Moose Jaw while my my dad was
doing his phase 2 flighttraining back in 1996 in Moose

(01:53):
Jaw on that CT 114 Tutor. SoI've been, right from birth,
kinda around aviation andespecially military aviation.
Grew up, you know, watching mydad go to work in his flight
suit every day. And pretty muchfor as long as I can remember,
I've been wanting to be an airforce pilot.

Bryan (02:10):
Yeah. That's awesome. So it's another kind of case of it
being in your blood, really.

Fred (02:14):
Yeah, exactly. In my blood. And for me, there was no
other option, really. It was Iwas kind of become a pilot in
the Air Force, and, you know,anything else was just a backup
plan.

Bryan (02:22):
Yeah. We're gonna get into your training in a moment.
But did you find that that addeda layer of pressure or were you
just you were good to go,basically?

Fred (02:29):
It definitely added a layer of pressure, but also
added a layer of motivation. Imean, I knew that my dad was
super, super proud of me forfollowing his footsteps. But I
also knew that, you know, hewould still love me if I did
something else, decided to dosomething else. So Yeah,

Bryan (02:41):
of course.

Fred (02:41):
I think it was just self induced pressure, you know,
trying to trying to make dadproud, make mom proud, you know.
But it was for me, it wasmotivation. I kinda took that as
a as fuel Yeah. To add to thefire.

Bryan (02:50):
Yeah. I know another guy that I know in the fighter world
was also his dad was a fighterpilot, and certainly added some
pressure for him duringtraining. So I know that can
happen sometimes, but like yousay, it can also add some
motivation. So

Fred (03:02):
Yeah. Motivation. And also, my dad was really a good
source of knowledge, and, Icould call him anytime and ask
him questions. You know, whatwhat did you find difficult in
this part of your training? Andhe always could give me a good
answer, which was really cool.

Bryan (03:14):
Yeah. That's awesome. How did you find your flight
training experience in theforces?

Fred (03:18):
Yeah. So my flight training was awesome, especially
the highlight of my trainingprogram through the Royal
Canadian Air Force training wasthe, Euro NATO drone jet pilot
training program in Texas, ENGEPas it's commonly called, working
with, you know, over 10different NATO countries, NATO
partners in Texas, flying theT-three eighty Talon. I think
that was a really cool, coolpart of my training and

(03:41):
definitely the highlight.

Bryan (03:42):
Yeah. I knew a few guys who did the NGET program, and it
seemed like a lot of fun, butalso super high pressure, super
high intensity. Like, how didyou find that in comparison to
our flight training?

Fred (03:52):
It's a very different way of learning. The US system is,
there's a lot of pilots that gothrough the program. And since
the 19 sixties, not one engineof course has graduated late.
They've always been on time. Soit is a bit of a meat grinder.
Like, a lot of pilots have toget through this program per
year from all the differentcountries, you know, including
Canada, the US, Norway, the UK,Germans. There's there's a whole

(04:15):
bunch of us. So the the trainingwas definitely very procedure
focused. Mhmm.

Bryan (04:19):
You

Fred (04:19):
know, you had to know your stuff and you had to execute it
well every day. And otherdifferences would be, you know,
in the Canadian Air Forcesystem, we kinda if you wanna
brief with our instructor, we gointo a closed room, close the
door, and, you know, it's kindof more of a a 1 on 1 brief
slash debrief session. Whereaswith the US Air Force, it's
you're in a room with everybodyelse. You and your instructor

(04:40):
are sitting, like, at his desk,but, like, all your student
partners, your teammates aresitting there studying on their
own, and they can listen to yourbrief, your debrief. So if you
fail the the flight and yourinstructor is, like, giving you
a bit of a, you know, you didthis wrong.
You did this wrong. Well, youevery all your buddies are are
listening to that. And, sodefinitely adds a lot of
pressure and a lot of stress.

Bryan (04:59):
Yeah. There's no secrets.

Fred (05:00):
No. There's no secrets. Yeah. Everything's out there.

Bryan (05:02):
How did you like flying the Talon?

Fred (05:04):
How was

Bryan (05:04):
that as an aircraft?

Fred (05:05):
Talon is really cool. I mean, it's, it's a super
difficult jet to fly. Like, alot of there's been a lot of
accidents since they startedflying. I think it was in the
fifties that they started flyingthe Talon.

Bryan (05:14):
So it's

Fred (05:14):
a really old jet, but they've upgraded over the years,
the engines, all the avionics inthere. So it really was just
like flying a a little fighterjet. You know, the the f 5, in
fact, was based off the t 38.

Bryan (05:24):
So Yeah. Isn't it almost the same but with afterburners?

Fred (05:26):
Yeah. With afterburners and, different wings, I believe.

Bryan (05:29):
Okay.

Fred (05:30):
The thing really is a little longer, like a little
fighter jet. It was really cool.

Bryan (05:33):
Is it the Talon that they used in the first Top Gun movie
for the enemy for the MiGs?

Fred (05:37):
That was f fives. Oh, okay.

Bryan (05:38):
Okay. So Very close. Yeah. Yeah. So something really
interesting about your flighttraining is you also were in the
Seneca program, which is nowdiscontinued.
Can you tell us a little bitabout that? Sure.

Fred (05:48):
So, yeah, I joined in 2014, under a program called the
Seneca COTP program. What itentitled pretty much was 4 years
to get a degree from, SenecaCollege in Toronto, as well as
your, RCF pilot's wings, eitherin Meuchard and Portage. So for
the first four years of theprogram, we would bounce back
between our degree, our schoolin Markham, Ontario, and then

(06:11):
all the flight training doneeither in Portage of Prairie or
in Moose Jaw for a wing. So in 4years, we could get fully
trained from, you know, an 18year old kid to a fully winged
captain ready to go, onto hisoperational training unit and
flying.

Bryan (06:25):
How did you find that bouncing back and forth between
Toronto and the prairies? Like,was it kinda tough because you
were never in one spot for along time? Or

Fred (06:33):
Yeah. It definitely was difficult. A lot of sacrifices
were made, obviously. But forme, it was it was my dream. It
was my goal to to get to whereI'm at.
So I did everything I I had todo. So Toronto was was a really
cool city. Obviously, we we werepaid to go to school in Toronto
as second lieutenants. Not a lotof people can can say they've
done that.

Bryan (06:50):
Yeah. For sure.

Fred (06:51):
And then, obviously, the flight training through the air
force in Moose Jaw and Portagewas super intense. So bounce
back and forth between both wasdefinitely difficult, but super
rewarding at the end, obviously.

Bryan (06:59):
Yeah. So you're going through your Seneca program.
You're going back and forth.Obviously, the dream is to
become an F 18 pilot. Youfinally get selected F 18s.
What was that like?

Fred (07:10):
Yeah. So actually, funny story. When I finished phase 3
with selected jets, was superhappy about that. Obviously,
that was that was my dream fromthe very get go as a kid was,
was to become a fighter pilot.You know, after seeing Top Gun
and watching the f 18 demo atthe air shows, that was really,
kinda what I was aiming for.
So when I was I got selected,for jets, went on to the phase 4
training in Moose Jaw on the onthe CT 155 Hawk. Once I finished

(07:34):
that, went back to Toronto to domy last 3 semesters of school.
And, while I was there, therewas a small period of time
there, a few years where, therewas a big, big backlog from
fighter pilots Mhmm. Trainingthrough Cold Lake.

Bryan (07:46):
Mhmm.

Fred (07:47):
So, yeah, I got rounded up with me and my 2 other
classmates, by our coursedirector, Fuel, in Toronto. She
said, listen, guys. There's noeasy way to put this. There's
too big of a backlog in, ColdLake right now. So we're giving
you the option.
Either you are gonna switch fromgoing fighters to another
community, so multi engineerhelicopter, or you go to Moose
Jaw, become an instructor on theHarvard or the Hawk, and just

(08:09):
wait it out till till you can gofighters.

Bryan (08:10):
Yep.

Fred (08:11):
So the 2 other guys I was with, they said that, you know,
they had girlfriends and kindathey said, okay. We're just
gonna make the switch. They bothswitched to multi engine. Yep. I
was young.
I was kinda still really aimingfor the goal of being a fighter
pilot. So I said, sure, I'll gobe an instructor in Moose Jaw
and just wait out being able togo to go to Cold Lake for my
training. Yeah. And then Iactually got a post and message

(08:32):
to to Moose Jaw as aninstructor. And about a month
before I headed out, I got aphone call from Major Public
Cover.

Bryan (08:38):
Okay.

Fred (08:39):
You probably know him from from the Aurora days.

Bryan (08:41):
Yep.

Fred (08:41):
And he said, Fred, would you like to go to Texas? And I
was like, what? Like, like,ENGAP? He's like, yeah. Do you
wanna go to ENGAP?
And, you can go right to theHornet after that. Obviously,
like, instant yes. Like,absolutely. Like, I was
thrilled. So I managed to youknow, there's always ways in
life sometimes that you can youthink that it's a there's a
barrier that you can't reallyget over, but there's always a

(09:02):
way at the end of the day thatyou can get to your goal.
So, yeah, I was really lucky tobe able to go to EngUp, do that
training, and then move on tothe F18 after that.

Bryan (09:10):
So that's a bit of an emotional roller coaster.

Fred (09:12):
Yeah, really.

Bryan (09:13):
It shows though how much you wanted that because it is
tough. It's tough when you thinkyou've got your goal, and then
roadblocks start appearing, and,you know, maybe you end up doing
something that you didn't expectto be doing along the way,
because, you know, it would havebeen probably a good 3, 4 year
stint in Moose Jaw. Right? It'snot like would have just been
there for a year waiting. Like,it probably would have been a
full tour, I'm guessing, ofinstructing.

(09:34):
Exactly. It would have been

Fred (09:35):
a while. And it just goes to show that there's a lot of
things in life, and especiallyin the Canadian Armed Forces,
where you don't have much say onor there's you don't have much
control on. But if you keep yourhead down, keep working at it,
and you you really show that youyou want something, there's
always kind of a way at the end,that you'll be able to make it
there. Yeah. For me, I was I wasreally lucky.
You know, obviously, it's timingas well. It's it's Mhmm. Being

(09:57):
in the right place at the righttime. But was really lucky to be
able to go through that back wayinstead of being an instructor
and go right on to the F18.

Bryan (10:03):
Yeah. So what exactly does the F18 do? It's Canada's
only fighter aircraft, so Iimagine you folks have a wide
range of responsibilities.

Fred (10:12):
Absolutely. So, the F 18 multirole fighter, our biggest
job, our number one job isdefending Canada, obviously. How
we do that is through NORAD. Sowe defend Canada and North
America together through theNORAD umbrella, so the North
American Aerospace Defense. Andevery base every fighter base in
Canada, so Cold Lake andBagaville has a quick reaction

(10:34):
alert facility where, we alwayshave pilots and technicians and
jets, armed jets kinda ready forany eventuality, whether that
be, you know, foreign aircraftflying over airspace, whether it
be an airliner that's goingthrough issues, like a hijacking
or radio failure or somethinglike that.
We're always ready to to launch,you know, in x number of minutes

(10:54):
and ready to go, you know,intercept whatever aircraft we
need to and carry out themission.

Bryan (10:59):
It's interesting that now we did an episode a few episodes
back in September that listenerscan check out on remembering
911. It's interesting that nowthat's part of NORAD's mission,
where before it was completelyfocused on external threats, and
now there's also that focus onpotential threats from within.

Fred (11:16):
Exactly. And I'd say a much higher part of our focus as
NORAD pilots is, to interceptany airline or civilian aircraft
that's going through throughissues. So it's definitely,
after 911, has gotten a lot morefocus, which is a good thing,
obviously.

intro (11:29):
Mhmm.

Bryan (11:30):
Yeah.

Fred (11:30):
And then, yeah. So if we're not doing any NORAD
operations, if we're not doingforce generation activities at
home, then, you know, we gointernationally for the most
part to defend Canada'sinterests abroad. Since I've
gone to the squadron a few yearsago, we haven't done any actual
operations. So I've done a fewinternational, exercises, LFEs

(11:50):
as we call them, so large forceexercises, both in the US and
overseas. I did one exercisecalled Friesian flag in the
Netherlands and another onecalled Cobra Warrior in the UK,
which I just finished up.
That was in September. So I justgot back from that not long ago.

Bryan (12:05):
That must have been really cool to go to the
Netherlands. And I think theyfly, what, f sixteens?

Fred (12:09):
Yeah. Netherlands. They've almost fully transitioned from
the f f 16 Viper to the f 35now. Oh, really? Yeah.
They're

Bryan (12:14):
Okay. I didn't realize they were on that train.

Fred (12:16):
They're ahead of us a little bit

Bryan (12:17):
on that train.

Fred (12:19):
I'd like

Bryan (12:19):
to talk about the training and upgrade process for
the F 18 pilot. And if we

Fred (12:22):
could, let's start at when you leave Moose Jaw. Sure. So,
if there's one thing you shouldknow about being a fighter pilot
is that the learning neverstops. From phase 2 to phase 3
on the on the Harvard, you getyour wings. You're starting to
learn, you know, basic formationflying, navigation skills.
You move on to the Hawk, learnhow to fly a jet, obviously. And
then you move on to your fighterlead in training, which, you

(12:44):
know, was on the Hawk in F-four19 in Cold Lake. Now it's mostly
done through NGAP. And I thinksome pilots are now starting to
go through Italy and and,Finland for, for fighter leading
training. So that's where you'regonna start, you know, focusing
less about flying a jet and morehow you're employing the jet as
a weapon as a weapon system.
So, you're learning, you know, alot of air to air tactics, air

(13:06):
to ground deliveries, thingslike that. And then you move on
finally to the f 18. And onceagain, the fighter pilot course,
given f 410 in Cold Lake is it'sa pretty quick transition to
learn how to fly the f 18, like,doing the the basic handling of
the aircraft, instrument flying,all that. It's only a few weeks,
and then we move right into thetactics. The fighter pilot

(13:26):
course is it's about a yearlong.
Okay. And we're gonna go througheverything, from, yeah, air to
air employment, air to groundemployment. The f 18 is the
first jet you get to that has aradar, that has, you know, a
multitude of sensors. So you'rereally learning to be more of a
of a sensor slash weapon systemoperator than than than a pilot,
I'd say. The flying is likesecond nature, and then you're

(13:47):
employing the system itself alot more.

Bryan (13:50):
I was gonna say, it's telling that the course is a
year long, but the portion whereyou learn to fly and fight the f
18 is only a few weeks long. Andthen basically, the rest of that
must be tactics, learning how tooperate those sensors and
systems, and how to employweapons. Exactly.

Fred (14:05):
And I think, don't quote me on this, but I think it's
your 5th or 6th flight on the F18 that you go solar. So it's
Really? Yeah. They give you thekeys to a jet, and,

Bryan (14:14):
you know How's the, pressure on that one?

Fred (14:16):
It's huge. Yeah. It's, it's kinda surreal, honestly.
And after the fact, lookingback, you're like, oh my god. I
can't believe they they let medo that.
But yeah. So then when youfinally finished the fighter
pilot course FBC at 4 10squadron in Cold Lake, you get
to the squadron, and you thinkyou're you're done training.
It's like, nope. You're rightinto your combat ready upgrade,

(14:37):
we call it. So So it's aboutanother 6 months to a year of
building up your skills as awingman to to be combat ready,
to be able to be deployed andwhatnot on operations.
Part of that is your NORADcheckout where they check you
out in for the QRA activities,so any NORAD intercepts and
whatnot. Part of of the combatready upgrade as well is your
night vision qualification, sowe start flying on, on NVGs and

(14:58):
the Hornet. And then you keep,moving on from there. As a
fighter pilot throughout yourcareer, you go from combat ready
upgrade to element lead upgrade,where you can be formation
leading of 2 aircraft. And thensection lead upgrade, you're a
lead of 4 aircraft.
You move on to, iPug, we callit, so an instructor pilot
upgrade, where you can now teachthe young guys through their

(15:19):
upgrades. You can do yourmission commander qual, so
you're always pretty much onupgrade or moving towards your
next upgrade and has a fighterpilot.

Bryan (15:27):
So the learning just never stops.

Fred (15:28):
It really never does. Yeah.

Bryan (15:29):
It sounds intense, but it sounds like a lot of fun.

Fred (15:31):
Yeah. It's it's challenging for sure. And,
you're you're always in thebooks, obviously. So

Bryan (15:35):
Yeah. I think that's such an important thing to highlight
to any young pilots listening.It's just that realization that
you really don't stop studying.Like, if you're looking for an
easy career, this is definitelynot that. I always think about
how, you know, with the amountof studying you do in the as a
pilot in the air force,especially in, like, the heavily
tactically involved communities.

(15:56):
I mean, you could be a doctor orsomething, because you're gonna
spend years in training, andthen years more in training on
the squadron, and the studyingjust never stops. Yeah. Exactly.
I I

Fred (16:05):
like your point about comparing it to a doctor
because, let's say for me, I'veI joined the military at 16,
joined as a pilot as 18. I'm 27now, and I'm just getting onto
the hornet, just starting my mycareer, you know, as a as a
fighter pilot. And I still gotso much more to go. Right? And
it's it's a lifelong learningcurve, if you will.

Bryan (16:22):
Yeah. For sure. So now that we've talked a little bit
about the training and upgradeprocess, can you take us through
what a normal day looks like at433 squadron? And because,
obviously, no 2 days are alike,we'll say, like, an average
flying day and an average daywhere you're not flying.

Fred (16:37):
Sure. Yeah. So, average flying day, like you mentioned,
we're probably in the either inthe QRA doing a shift there, or
if we're not, you know, onoperation somewhere. A normal
flying day would consist of usshowing up to work in the
morning. It depends if you're, amorning wave or an afternoon
noon wave scheduled.
But, yeah, you show up sometimesas early as 6:30, 7 AM, start

(16:57):
studying a little bit, top offyour studying that you haven't,
really caught up as much on asyou you would have liked to, and
then you go right into themission planning aspects. So
looking at the weather, we do alot of, you know, mission
planning, on a a small missiondata card that we carry to the
jet. Would that be,

Bryan (17:12):
like, one that you put all your navigation info in and
those sorts of

Fred (17:16):
things that you plug in? Yeah, exactly. Waypoints, weapon
parameters, things like thatOkay. For the mission you're
about to do. And then, onceyou're ready, we always do a
lengthy brief before the flight.
We We will do the brief with theinstructor pilot, that's flying
with us or just the formationlead if we're doing a non
upgrade mission. The brieflasts, you know, about an hour,
an hour and a half.

Bryan (17:35):
Okay.

Fred (17:35):
And then, we start getting ready to actually get to the
jet. So for us in the in theHornet, we wear a lot of, all c
gear. So a lot of our, you know,we wear our g pants, our
harness, our life vest, as wellas our our helmet. Mhmm.

Bryan (17:47):
So we

Fred (17:47):
have to go downstairs, start putting that on. Ideally,
you know, especially if you'redoing a higher g mission, you
wanna start stretching as well,stretch your neck, stretch your
back, or else that's where whenwhen injuries start kinda coming
in.

Bryan (17:58):
That's an important point, how physical it is to fly
a fighter.

Fred (18:01):
Yeah. Very physical. Like, just from the moment you start
putting on your gear, walkingout to the jet, strapping in,
and the flight itself, like,it's it's pretty tiring,
actually. You come back from aflight and you're exhausted
mentally, but also prettyphysically as well.

Bryan (18:13):
Mhmm.

Fred (18:14):
So yeah. So from from when we we start getting dressed to
the jet, we were gonna go out toour step desk, as we call it.
We're gonna have a pilot thatwill give us an out brief. To
give us the latest weather orany anything we need to know
pretty much before we take off.We go to the jet.
We'll start the jet. And, youknow, there's no hiding that
their jets are getting a bitolder. So sometimes we have to
do quite a bit oftroubleshooting to make sure

(18:35):
that that it's good to go. Itcan be anything from the flight
control systems to our radar.Sometimes they just need a
couple on and offs like an oldcomputer has, if you will.

Bryan (18:45):
But also, like you said, they are aging aircraft. But
there's also a ton of systems onboard. Yeah. I always try to
highlight this when we talkabout how an aircraft might come
up unserviceable, as we say.There's so much on board that
can there's like so manycomputers, so many systems.
It can be the smallest thing,but you're not gonna take off
without everything functioningproperly.

Fred (19:03):
Exactly. And then, especially if it's a critical
mission, if we're in the, in theQRA, there's so many things that
we have to make sure that aregood to go before we take off.
So after that, we take off. Weonly fly, it's been on the
mission between an hour, an hourand a half if we don't have an
air air refueler. Obviously,with an air air air refueler, we
can fly as long as we want, ifyou will, as long as the the

(19:23):
tanker sticks around.
And then after hour and a half,we're going to come back, we're
going to land, and then then westart getting to the process of
debriefing. So, we'll we'll lookat everything that happened
during the flight. If weemployed any simulated weapons,
we'll look at those thoseparameters, make sure everything
was was correct. And then wewere gonna sit in the debrief,
and it's really, like, yeah,just, we're looking at our HUD

(19:45):
tapes. We're looking ateverything from the flight, kind
of moment by moment and goingthrough what went well, what
went wrong, and then what arethe big key we call it DFB, so
debrief focus points.
What are the big things that wecan take away from from this
flight?

Bryan (19:57):
Can you explain what a HUD tape is?

Fred (19:59):
Sure. Yeah. So, HUD stands for heads up display. So that's
obviously the the flightinstrument, the glass pane in
front of our eyes there thatgives us all our, our flight
information and, weaponssymbology as well in the in the
F 18. And then tapes, it's justshort for, yeah, like an old
recorder.
So in the Hornet and for prettymuch every fighter jet out
there, there's a system, acamera that will be recording

(20:21):
your HUD.

Bryan (20:22):
And for the listeners, a HUD is a heads up display. It's
basically a screen that thepilots look through that shows
all their applicable flight dataand systems information.

Fred (20:33):
So that you can, like, again, debrief your missions.
And if there's anything, like,for combat operations, you can
you can look back on making sureeverything went well. And if you
need to look at anything inparticular, you can stop at an
exact time, you know, a spaceand time and look at exactly
what happened.

intro (20:48):
Okay.

Bryan (20:49):
And how long are those debriefs typically?

Fred (20:51):
It varies depending on how complex the mission was.

Bryan (20:53):
Mhmm.

Fred (20:54):
Usually, it's minimum of an hour.

Bryan (20:55):
Okay.

Fred (20:55):
And then I've seen debriefs go up to especially
for, like, an LFE or things likethat. Like, we're talking, like,
3 to 4 hours. Wow.

Bryan (21:01):
Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot.

Fred (21:03):
It is. Yeah. You need a couple of coffee breaks in
there.

Bryan (21:07):
So that covers a flying day. What does a non flying day
look like?

Fred (21:10):
Sure. So non flying day, that's when we we really try to
use that time that we don'tusually have on a flying day to
do a lot of our admin. So let'ssay, we have, some paperwork to
do, some claims to put in,things like that. That takes up
a small portion of every day.And if not, we're we're also
studying.
We're we're getting ready forthe next exercise, for the next
thing that's coming up. Mhmm.So, yeah. So even if you're not

(21:31):
flying, you're always doingsomething at squadron. You're
there's pretty much no deadtimes.
You're always, always working.And then if you got nothing else
to do, you kinda go around, tryto help your buddies if they
have something that they theyneed to get done. So it never
stops.

Bryan (21:45):
Yeah. I found in the Aurora world that if you ever
find yourself without work,you're missing something. Like,
there's something that'screeping up on you that you're
not getting ready for.

Fred (21:52):
Exactly.

Bryan (21:54):
You mentioned air to air refueling. What's it like to go
up to a tanker and get some gas?What's that like? Yeah. So like
anything in life, the first timeyou do

Fred (22:02):
it, you you're like, what am I doing? You know, I should
not be this close to a bigairplane like that.

Bryan (22:07):
Yeah.

Fred (22:07):
But, once you've done it a few times, like, I'd say 5 to 6
pokes, as we call them. So 5 to6 attempts at, connecting to the
tanker, they kinda become secondnature.

Bryan (22:15):
Mhmm.

Fred (22:16):
You learn your your sight pictures and your references off
the off the airplane you'refueling off of. And it's it's
really cool, and it's a reallygood force enabler for, again,
taking on longer missions and,doing more stuff. Like any of
the large force exercisemissions that we do, if the
tankers aren't there, like, wecan't get the mission done.
Mhmm. So they're super importantfor us.
Hornet doesn't carry a lot ofinternal gas, and we burn it

(22:38):
pretty quick. But Yeah. And thenI've tanked from anywhere from,
the C130H as a tanker. I'vetanked off the Polaris, the CC
150. I've tanked on the KC 46.

Bryan (22:49):
I've put

Fred (22:50):
it on the KC 135, which we call it the Iron Maiden. It's
it's

Bryan (22:54):
That's getting old now.

Fred (22:55):
It's getting old, and it's it's it's quite something to
tank off that thing.

Bryan (22:58):
It's huge. Right? That's a that's a strato tanker?

Fred (23:00):
Yeah. It's KC 135. And, yeah, the system it has on it so
it's an American jet, obviously.And it's meant for for boom
operations for, like, Vipers andF-15s, but they have a boom
drogue adapter, we call it, forthe F-18. And it is sporty, man,
trying to get on that thing andstay on it for fuel.
So it's a it's a a 100 percent a110% focus while you're you're

(23:22):
fueling off that thing.

Bryan (23:23):
Yeah.

Fred (23:23):
And then, yeah, also, when I was in England, we tanked off
the, they call they call it theKC 30 Voyager, but it's a an a 3
or sorry, a 3 30 Airbus. Okay.So yeah. Wide range of airplanes
that can tank us. And, once youlearn how to tank on 1, there's
small differences for the otherjets, but it's all pretty
similar.

Bryan (23:42):
Yeah. It's really cool. When you arrived on squadron,
what did you find was thehardest part of the job when you
started?

Fred (23:49):
Yeah. So, I think the biggest realization for me was,
you know, having gone throughall the training from Moose Jaw
to Engep to Cold Lake, you know,I thought that when I was going
to become a fighter pilot, youknow, things would kind of maybe
slow down a little bit or I'dhave maybe a bit more time to
chill out, be at home and thingslike that.

Bryan (24:08):
Like, I made it.

Fred (24:08):
I made it. Yeah. Yeah. I can kind of take a break now.
But Yeah.
Yeah. It's quite the opposite.You show up to the squadron,
it's like, alright. Combat readyupgrade, NORAD checkout so that
you can be in the QRA, nightvision qualification. Oh, here's
a secondary duty, so, you know,the work never stops coming.
Mhmm. So for me, the biggestpart was trying to find a good
work life balance that workedfor me and worked for also my

(24:31):
fiance. You know, that's that'sat home. So Yep. That was the
the bigger, realization for mewhen I got to the squadron.

Bryan (24:38):
Yeah. And how did you take that challenge, John? How
did you overcome that?

Fred (24:41):
Yeah. So like I said, kinda just setting boundaries.
Like, by this time, I might notbe done completely my work, but
I I I'm gonna get back home, gospend some time with my fiance.
And also, I really, reallyemphasize taking time in my day
to go to the gym. Yep.
Go do, you know, go do someother activities. You need
hobbies. Like, you needsomething else outside of work
to keep you going and keep youpassionate about.

Bryan (25:03):
Yeah. A 100%.

Fred (25:04):
And I listened to to your podcast with Rich last week
talking about sleep. Sleep isalso super important. Like, if
you're not rested, like, you'regonna show up dragging your feet
and not not doing the best workyou can.

Bryan (25:15):
Yeah.

Fred (25:15):
So, yeah. So I'd say the best things you can do for
yourself are find a good worklife balance, have hobbies
outside of work that you enjoydoing, and go to the gym, sleep
well.

Bryan (25:26):
I think that's great advice because, especially when
you first get on squadron,that's gonna be pretty relatable
for most people that there isgonna be an avalanche of stuff
that's gonna hit you that youneed to know, and you're gonna
feel like you needed to know ityesterday. But there's not
enough hours in the day to doall that, and you have to have
some point where you say, okay,I'm done now. I'm gonna go to
the gym. I'm gonna spend sometime with my family. I'm gonna

(25:46):
do whatever it

Fred (25:47):
is that helps refresh me. Exactly. And like,
unfortunately, you know, we havea bit of a personnel shortage
issue in the Canadian ArmedForces. So there's less people.
There's still a lot of work todo.
So you sometimes you feel likeyou have to take on more of the
work that's not being, you know,taken up by other people that
would be there.

Bryan (26:04):
Mhmm.

Fred (26:05):
So once again, you just have to find that balance that
works for you, that works foryour family, and just try not to
burden yourself out in the 1st1st year. Right?

intro (26:13):
Mhmm.

Bryan (26:13):
Yep. For sure. So we've talked about that life can be
pretty intense on the F18. Howmuch are you away flying the
F18?

Fred (26:21):
Sure. So, even when I'm at home doing domestic operations,
we spend quite a bit of time inthe QRA, like I said, where
we're not sleeping at home.We're 247, at work in the
facilities, ready for anyeventuality. So even if we're
we're at home, for me inBagaville, away from my fiance,

(26:43):
my dogs, and that's just thenormal part of of the job. Mhmm.
And if we're not doing that, youknow, we're we're often by
often, I mean twice a year,usually gone on exercises or
deployments down south to theStates, to Europe. That's on top
of any courses that you woulddo, like, any professional
development courses. So you'redefinitely you know, we're not

(27:03):
as gone as often as a communitylike the C 17 or the Polaris,
where those guys are just allover the place all the time.
Yep. But we are still gone fromhome quite a bit.

Bryan (27:13):
Yeah. Yeah. So a question I've had from quite a few
listeners is what happens if youhave to go to the bathroom when
you're flying the F 18?

Fred (27:21):
Yeah. So I will speak for the male side of the house.
Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
We have a few female fighterpilots, which is which is
awesome. So for us, for the theguys, the dudes, we have little
pee bags that we can that we canpee into. It is extremely
difficult and challenging,especially depending on the on
the mission phase you're in. Soit's usually a good idea to try

(27:42):
to get that out before you goflying or even if you're, like,
in the chocks, in the airplaneon the ground with a parking
brake set.

Bryan (27:48):
Yeah.

Fred (27:48):
That's a good time to take a pee before you go. Because,
yeah, we we wear a lot of youknow, we wear our flight suit.
And on top of the flight suit,we have all our all our,
survival equipment, our g pants,and everything. So you have to
kinda bring your seat up, find acomfortable position Yeah. Be
able to, yeah, take the pee bagand be able to use it.
So the pee bag, usually, there'seither a sponge or some sort of

(28:08):
a powder that will absorb yourpee. Yeah. But I've had I've had
1 or 2 leak on me.

Bryan (28:13):
Yeah. I know that.

Fred (28:14):
Oh, my god. That is not not a good feeling. Why is it
wet? Oh, it's leaking. Yeah.
Yeah. But, yeah. So, definitelyanother thing that we really try
to do to avoid using those peebags is, we call it tactical
dehydration.

Bryan (28:29):
So Yeah.

Fred (28:29):
Let's say I know I'm gonna cross the Atlantic Ocean for 6
hours. I'm gonna try to getreally hydrated the day before.

intro (28:35):
Mhmm.

Fred (28:35):
And then that morning, you know, a little bit of a coffee
maybe, go to the bathroom forone last time, and then the rest
of the the flight, you're you'renot drinking any water just to
make sure that you you don'thave to go to the bathroom.

Bryan (28:46):
Yeah. How is it crossing the Atlantic solo? That must be
really difficult for 6, 7 hoursby yourself in a cockpit.

Fred (28:55):
Yeah, exactly. So, I think you have a question coming up
where you're going to ask me themost challenging flight in an
F18.

Bryan (29:02):
Okay.

Fred (29:02):
I would say this isn't the most challenging, but it's the
most uncomfortable, really.

Bryan (29:06):
Yeah.

Fred (29:06):
So I've crossed the Atlantic Ocean twice now in the
F18, once coming back from, fromthe Netherlands and then once
going to Europe to to Englandfor Cobra Warrior. On top of
your flight suit, on top ofyour, your normal Allstate
equipment, we have to wear animmersion suit, which we
commonly call a, a poopy suit.Yep. So, yeah, it's a it's a
big, dry suit that you have towear underneath all your

(29:27):
equipment. Just in case that weever had to eject, in in the
North Atlantic, you'd be able toto survive a bit longer.
Mhmm. So, yeah, you're 6 or 7hours in a cramped cockpit
wearing your helmet, yourimmersion suit, all your other,
equipment, and there's no roomto go to the bathroom to stretch
your legs. They give us a bit offood to try to kinda keep us

(29:48):
going for the flight. So, like,a bit of orange juice, like,
some beef jerky, some proteinbars, things like that. But,
after 3 or 4 hours, you reallystart wishing you're on the
ground, on the other side of theAtlantic layer, taking a
stretch.
So

Bryan (30:02):
Yeah. I've done a mission in the Aurora that we call a
duck butt, which is, for thelisteners, is when a tanker and
an Aurora escort f eighteensacross the Atlantic so that if
there is any issues, we can beon scene right away to help them
with anything that may happen.And one thing I heard on the
frequency that we were allmonitoring was the fighters
doing trivia with each other. Sois that something that you

(30:24):
always do when you do acrossing? Is it someone's
responsibility to get, like thetrivia questions?

Fred (30:28):
Or Yeah. We we try to find ways to keep busy. So obviously,
we have our our tanker frequencywhere we'll be talking to the
tanker commander. Because onething I must say is that we
never, never, never cross theocean alone. We always, like you
said, have our tanker that'sgiving us the gas to get across,
and then we'll have an Aurora ora c one thirty h that's, that's
providing our duck butt.
So crossing the ocean is notsomething that you can do alone

(30:51):
in a Hornet. You need a a bigteam of people to get you
across. But that being said, wetry to keep busy on the inter
flight. We'll be, you know,cracking jokes, trying to pass
the time. And, I've never donetrivia, flying somewhere, but
Okay.
We have done we called it a abingo where we had the bingo
card with a bunch of differentitems on the ground, and then we

(31:11):
were all flying with with ourcameras, our sniper pods. And
then, you have to fill out thebingo cards by let's say, there
was a you need to find a boatcrossing a river. So you're
flying over, you know, overLabrador or something. You're
trying to find a boat crossing ariver, then once you find that,
okay, you can you have to recordit through your system. And then
you can, you know, knock thatout.

(31:31):
And then Yeah. It was prettycool. It was a good way to pass
the time. I

Bryan (31:34):
like that. It's a little bit of training using our
systems

Fred (31:37):
as well.

Bryan (31:37):
And you're having some fun and

Fred (31:38):
keeping busy. Exactly. Yeah. You gotta keep your mind
busy, or else, yeah, you'regonna start hating the the
crossing.

Bryan (31:44):
Yeah. I definitely, when I was doing those missions, did
not envy you folks, as I waswalking around and using the
bathroom and going back to thegallery to get a bite to

Fred (31:52):
eat. And drinking coffee. Yeah.

Bryan (31:53):
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I would find that very difficult.
So kudos to you folks.
We've touched on this a littlebit, but how physically
demanding is flying theF-eighteen? And do you folks
find that it has any lastingeffects on your body?

Fred (32:08):
Yeah. So flying the f 18, definitely very physically
demanding, like we've alreadytouched on. For me, I'll I'll
speak, like, from personalexperience. I had just shown up
to the squadron, like, not verylong, probably 6 months to a
year in my first tour around thesquadron. When I was flying
higher g missions, mostly basicfighter maneuvers, BFM or ACM
air combat maneuvers, whereyou're looking around a bunch

(32:29):
with your helmets, with youryour head, you're pulling a lot
of g, looking backwards.
I started feeling a little bitof a pinch between my shoulder
blades. Mhmm. So, you know, Istarted doing a bit more
stretching, tried to maybe getthat to go away. It's kinda
stuck around, so I started goingto the physio on base to to see,
if she could help help out withthat that pain that I was
experiencing. And then, after acup you know, a few weeks of of

(32:52):
physio, the physiotherapistsaid, well, you know, I'm not
too sure what's going on.
Let's send you to get an MRI tomake sure everything's good, and
I can pinpoint what the issue isso that we can fix it. Right? So
I go and get the MRI. It comesback that I have a herniated
disc in my neck, C67, which islike pushing the hernia itself,
like the the disc is pushingagainst a nerve. So that was the

(33:13):
kind of the pain I was feeling.
So that just goes to show, youknow, I'm a pretty young guy,
you know, fresh off of trainingon Yeah. On the F18, and already
getting some effects from flyingthe F18. So it just goes to show
how physically demanding it canbe.

Bryan (33:26):
Yeah. And especially, like, listeners won't know this,
but you're you're quite a fitguy. Like, it's it's not like
you don't go to the gym or youdon't have, you got a big,
thick, strong neck and a strongback and all that stuff. Like,
you're taking care of yourselfand it can still happen.

Fred (33:38):
Exactly. And I've had a lot of time to think about,
maybe what's causing that andthings that could help maybe in
the future. It's no secret thatthe F 18 LC is is also aging.
It's a bit older.

Bryan (33:49):
For the listeners, we've mentioned the term LC a few
times now. That's aviation lifesupport equipment. For fighter
pilots, this includes thingslike helmets, oxygen masks,
inflatable life rafts and vests,harnesses, flares, radios, and
signaling devices for postevacuation survival.

Fred (34:04):
It kinda gives us a a hunched forward position in the
seat. Mhmm. Kind of a badposture to start with. Compound
that with, you know, the theweight of our helmet with the g
forces on top of that. You know,you We're pulling up to 7 and a
half g, so your head, your neckis experiencing, like, a few 100
pounds of Yeah.

Bryan (34:20):
That's crazy.

Fred (34:21):
Which your neck is not designed for, obviously. Yeah.
So ways to mitigate that goingforward. I'm still, you know,
doing a lot of physio, a lot ofchiro. And then I've been also
working with my physiotherapistto get the like a it looks
silly, but it's called an IronNeck.
It's like a neck strengtheningdevice. So I've I've been trying
to implement that more at thesquadron because I'm not the 1st
guy to have neck issues. I had agood friend of mine not too long

(34:42):
ago have to stop flying the F18because of neck issues. So it's
definitely something that wewere dealing with and something
that we have to really, keep ontop of, you know, be I look at
it, let's try to be preventiveinstead of reactive, you know,
to injuries.

Bryan (34:54):
So, yeah. Where do you find pilots tend to struggle on
the F 18?

Fred (35:00):
Okay. So initially, what I struggle with and what every
fighter pilot struggles withinitially, and we've already
touched on this a little bit, isthat you're now using the F 18,
an airplane as a weapon system.

Bryan (35:11):
Mhmm. So the

Fred (35:12):
biggest thing, the biggest kinda mind shift is going from
just flying an airplane,focusing on flying the airplane,
taking off, landing, all thatjazz. But now you're doing it
always with another jet oranother 3 jets, so a formation
of 2, formation of 4. And on topof that, you're employing all
the tactics that you have toknow while also employing all

(35:33):
the sensors you have on board.So

Bryan (35:36):
That sounds like a lot.

Fred (35:37):
Yeah. So going through and, you know, the F 18 is the
only tactical single seatairplane in the Canadian Armed
Forces. Right? We're we'realways alone in the cockpit.
Mhmm.
So you have a lot to deal withat the same time. So what a lot
of guys, myself included,struggle with when we sir 1st
started the training, yeah, wehave a kind of a little riddle
that we remember what ourpriorities are as as fighter
pilots. As wingman, the firstone is formation. 2nd one is

(36:00):
sensors. 3rd one is calm.
So formation is always thenumber one priority. Like, if if
you as a wingman stay with yourflight lead, they're gonna be
safe. He's gonna keep you safe.Yep. Or he should theoretically.
2nd priority becomes sensors. Sooperating your sensors,
operating your radar, operatingyour sniper pod, anything else,
your dispenser system, thatbecomes the 2nd priority. And

(36:22):
the 3rd priority is, is calm.You know, we have a lot of
tactical Brevity communicationsthat we have to use when we're
talking to our groundcontrollers, when we're talking
to other formation members.

Bryan (36:30):
Mhmm.

Fred (36:31):
So, yeah. So the hardest thing initially is trying to
learn how to work your yoursensor. I'm gonna use the radar
here because it's our biggestsensor we use in the Hornet,
while also effectivelymaintaining formation off your
flight lead Yeah. Andcommunicating at the same time.
So you're doing, like, you know,6 things at once, but you have
to prioritize those in the rightorder.

Bryan (36:49):
So it's kind of similar to pilots who've trained in the
Canadian Armed Forces, will knowthe saying, aviate, navigate,
communicate. Except becauseyou're in a formation, you don't
need to worry about the navigatepiece. So it's more like,
aviate, operate, communicate.

Fred (37:01):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And then operate is all the sensors
because, you know, your Auroraguys, you had the the sensor
operators in the back that couldhelp you. But on the Hornet,
you're alone. So you have to notonly do you have to fly, you
have to fly off your formationlead, and then you have to
operate your sensors effectivelyto, you know, to sensors
effectively to, you know, todetect and kill the

Bryan (37:18):
enemy. Yeah. So I usually ask, how can they overcome this?
But I think you've kind ofanswered that with your list of
priorities.

Fred (37:24):
Yeah, exactly. Like, you overcome that by prioritizing
the proper things at the propertimes, but also how do you help
yourself on the ground? Do a lotof chair flying, obviously, like
any pilot will tell you goingthrough the the training. And we
have simulators at Bagaville andat Cold Lake that we can use
when it's available, when it'snot being used by another
formation by a trip. We can getinto the sim, and we can really

(37:45):
practice on that.
And it's a really, really good,tool for us.

Bryan (37:48):
Yeah. And it's that full motion and all the whole 9
areas?

Fred (37:51):
It's not full motion, but, it's like 3 60 view. And the
cockpit is 100% the same as

intro (37:56):
the jet.

Bryan (37:56):
Pretty high fidelity and Yeah.

Fred (37:58):
Exactly. Yeah.

Bryan (38:00):
So the F18 is one of the few aircraft we have that carry
munitions. What is it like todrop or fire munitions? Is it
exciting or does it just becomepart of the job?

Fred (38:08):
Yeah, exactly. So, on the F 18, we have numerous weapons,
both air to air and air toground. Air to ground, we have
the gun in the front. You know,we have our 20 mic mic gun. We
have our air bombs for air toground deliveries.
We have laser guided bombs. Wehave GPS guided bombs or a
combination thereof. And thenfor air aero, you know, we have
our missiles that we can use,like Sidewinder and and whatnot

(38:29):
for any air air to airengagement. So we have quite a
few weapons that we have to knowhow to use. And then when you
first use them, for example, thefirst time I fired the gun or
the first time I dropped a liveweapon was incredible.
It was Yeah. Can't believe it.Once again, I can't believe I'm
doing this for real.

Bryan (38:45):
Yeah. What a rush.

Fred (38:46):
Yeah. So the first the first time you do it, it's a
huge rush, but then obviously,you still wanna make sure that
you're doing doing it properly.

Bryan (38:51):
Yeah.

Fred (38:52):
And then, once kind of you've done it a few times,
like, the novelty wears off likeanything in life, but you really
become hyper focused on onreleasing safely and properly
and just, you know we wanna makesure that we're we're dropping
on our weapon at the right spotat the right time. Yeah. You
know, that we don't have anycollateral damage. So that's

(39:12):
that's really what your focus ison is is like, I don't wanna I
don't wanna have to hurt anyonethat I I don't have to kind of
thing, you know?

Bryan (39:18):
Yeah. It's a huge responsibility.

Fred (39:20):
Exactly. Yeah. And then, so once the novelty has worn off
of of employing live weapons, itbecomes a lot more like, you
know, I just want to make surethat when I, when I release this
weapon, it's it's going to theright spot.

Bryan (39:31):
Yeah. Just being as precise and professional as
possible. Exactly. Yep. Yeah.
That makes sense. So this mightbe a silly question, but what's
it like the first time you breakthe sound barrier?

Fred (39:41):
Yeah. So unfortunately, very underwhelming. Yeah. I'm
really sorry to break it to you.So I've done it.
The first time I broke the soundbarrier was on the T30 Talon. It
is a supersonic trainer.

Bryan (39:52):
Okay.

Fred (39:52):
It was a bit more pronounced than the Talon
because it's, it's a smallerairplane. So once we hit the
sound barrier, the speed ofsound Mach 1, not right away,
but a bit later, you had kind ofa little bump that you could
feel.

Bryan (40:03):
Okay.

Fred (40:03):
But if not, like, for example, bringing the sound
barrier in the F18, the onlyreason you know you're going
supersonic is by looking at yourHUD and then Really? Jet telling
you that you're over Mach 1.

Bryan (40:11):
Okay.

Fred (40:12):
They're from inside the cockpit, there's no sound
difference. There's no,vibrations. There's no there's
nothing really.

Bryan (40:18):
Okay.

Fred (40:19):
And I've honestly never heard a, like, a shock wave from
the ground. So

Bryan (40:22):
No? Yeah.

Fred (40:23):
And we can't hear it, obviously, in the jets. No,

Bryan (40:25):
of course, because you're going faster than it.

Fred (40:26):
Yeah. So, unfortunately, very underwhelming. Okay. But,
but it is pretty cool when, youknow, you're flying tactically
and then you look down like, Oh,I'm going supersonic. Cool.
And then you each move on to the

Bryan (40:36):
next thing. Yeah. I mean, I remember even in the Harvard
when you started having a speedthat could be measured in mock,
you're like, I'm going mocksomething. That's kinda cool.

Fred (40:44):
Yeah. Exactly.

Bryan (40:44):
Well, very, it's a cool concept.

Fred (40:47):
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Bryan (40:49):
So you've talked about LFE, or large force exercises.
Yeah. Those would involvedogfighting friendly nations.
Correct? Yeah.
Correct. Which country do youfind has the most difficult
opponents? So

Fred (41:01):
anytime we do any training with our partners, you know,
we're pretty much alwaystraining with NATO partners.

Bryan (41:06):
Mhmm.

Fred (41:06):
So I'll talk to you when we went to the Netherlands on
Friesian flag or when we went tothe UK with Cobra Warrior. A lot
of times when we train, ourpartner countries, our NATO
partners, will they're going tobe threat replicating an enemy
threat. So they'll fly not theway they usually would, just to
replicate flying as an enemy.

Bryan (41:26):
Right. Because their aircraft would have different
capabilities and differenttactics.

Fred (41:29):
But sometimes just for our own proficiency, we'll go, like,
1 on 1 for any, we call it withindividual range engagements
with, with other fighters. Sofor example, when I was in the
UK, I went and did, air combatmaneuvering, which is 2 versus 1
dogfighting Mhmm. With aEurofighter Typhoon out of
Walssemyth. So Yep. That'spretty cool.
We're over in the North Sea, andit's me and my flight lead, 2

(41:51):
Hornets. And we have, theEurofighter behind us who's,
playing the the enemy, if youwill. Mhmm. And, it's like 321
fights on kinda thing. And, Ican't really say that any one
NATO country is is better thanthe other because we're all
trained the same way.
Mhmm. So it really what is has amore or a greater impact on the
fight is the capabilities of theaircraft. Yeah. If you're

(42:13):
dogfighting, you're fighting atyphoon, which has, like, pretty
good thrust to weight ratio, or,like, it's gonna be better than
you in certain ways. But onceagain, like the Hornet, if we go
we get slow and we go get intowhat we call our one circle
fight, where imagine, like,you're you're doing a knife
fight inside of, like, atelephone booth.
Like, that's where the Hornetreally is excels at. And so
Yeah. You wanna try to get youryour enemy to to follow you into

(42:35):
your favorite fight so that youcan defeat them.

Bryan (42:37):
Yeah. That makes sense. On that same note, you mentioned
that the capabilities of theaircraft are important in those
exercises. We're still usingolder 4th generation fighters.
Do you find that our trainingand competency can help overcome
newer tech?
Or is it pretty difficult?

Fred (42:52):
Yeah. So one thing that I've found, that I've been
really proud of is that anytime,like, us Canadians show up with
the F18, like, yes, it is a bitof an older jet. It's a 4th
generation fighter. We're flyingwith, like, 4th and a half gen
or 5th gen fighters out there.And we just have to be upfront
with what our capabilities are.
But whatever is given to us inthe mission, we do it really

(43:13):
well. And it's really cool tosee, part of your nation's,
like, you know, working with theAmericans and the Brits. They
see us Canadians like, Oh, youguys, like, you're doing pretty
good with what you have. Andthat's that's kind of our, our
pride and joy is, being able tostill, with the equipment that
we have, go out and and give ourvery best and, and still, like,
play a pretty big part in theoverall mission. That's awesome

(43:35):
to hear.

Bryan (43:35):
Yeah. So how do you think our training will change at the
tactical level when we upgradefrom 4th Gen to 5th Gen
fighters? Is that going to belike a huge shift in tactics and
how we do business?

Fred (43:46):
Yeah. So like you said, there'll be a very, very big
shift, a mindset shift. And thebiggest one is to do with
security. You know, the 4th genfighters, we can take the F 18
on the road, do a cross country.We can do all the tactics that
we we train to in the jetitself, in our airspace.
The big paradigm shift going tothe f 35 and to any 5th gen

(44:07):
fighter is that a lot of thetactics that they use are super
sensitive, and, they can't bereplicated in the air because of
security threats that will bemaybe watching watching those
things to get more information.So the big shift, is that, for
example, going to the F35, a lotmore of our tactical missions
will be flown in the simulator.You know, we'll still do stuff
in the airplane, but up to acertain level. Everything else

(44:29):
will be done in the simulator.So definitely a lot more time
spent in the sim for a 5thgeneration of fighters.
But obviously, the guys arestill meeting their minimum
number of hours every year in inthe jet.

Bryan (44:38):
Yeah. So that'll be one of the biggest changes. It's
just the, mindset on how wetrain and where we train.

Fred (44:44):
Exactly. Yeah. So it'll be a it's a big shift. You know,
with the F 35, we won't be ableto really take the jet down the
road Mhmm. Per se.
We won't be able to do a lot ofthe things that, you know, we
can enjoy doing with the F 18.So it'll definitely just be a
mindset that we'll have to getused to.

Bryan (44:58):
Yeah. And I think that's something that we're seeing kind
of across many air forcesthough, is this push for higher
levels of simulation, obviouslybecause of cost savings, but
also because you can have ahigher fidelity. We're getting
to a point where simulators aregetting very good and you can
have that higher missionfidelity where you can actually
go and do the business versusjust simulating it somewhere
where there's artificialconstraints that get put on the

(45:19):
mission.

Fred (45:20):
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, for example, in the
F-eighteen, there's, there'ssome stuff that we just don't do
in the airplane because it wouldbe negative training for us to
do so. Mhmm. It's better to justgo in the simulator and
replicate through the simulator,any of the threats that we're
going up against. It's betterfor us that way than actually
going to the jet and trying toreplicate something that that
doesn't really work.

Bryan (45:40):
Yeah. That makes sense. What's the best day you've ever
had in an F 18?

Fred (45:45):
Best day that I've ever had in an F 18? I'd have to say
it was not too long ago. Thispast September, I'd exercised
Cobra Warrior in the UK. It wasme and my good friend, who's now
also my brother-in-law. We wereboth in the same formation.
He was my element lead, and Iwas his wingman. And, we're,
going to execute some dynamictargeting. So we're pretty much

(46:05):
just flying around, refueling,waiting for for the higher level
operations to give us a dynamictask, so a target to to go, drop
weapons on. So him and I arejust, you know, first time
flying together overseas in alarge force exercise, and we get
given this, you know, thisdynamic task. You know, alright,
you have to go drop weapons andthis number of weapons on this
target.

(46:25):
The target just so happened tobe in Scotland.

Bryan (46:27):
Mhmm.

Fred (46:27):
We're flying over the North Sea. So him and I get
ready, you know, we do our ourfighter to fighter breeze to go
drop, and it was just so cooljust being with an old friend
that I did all my pilot trainingwith, who's also family now, and
Yeah. And go and and doing thebusiness, as we say, doing the
mission, dropping our simulatedweapons and Skaal, and turning
back around, and just comingback just feeling like absolute
heroes. Even if we were only avery, very small part of the

(46:50):
entire mission, it was prettycool.

Bryan (46:52):
That is really cool, though. You work for so many
years, and then you sometimesget these opportunities where
you're there with a friend whoyou've worked through it all
with too. And you're like, herewe are. We're actually out here
doing what we trained to do. Andhow cool is this?

Fred (47:03):
Yeah. And then, like, he did an incredible job as a fly
lead. We did pretty well as aformation. Not just the 2 of us,
but there was 4 of us total. Sowe're it was just a really,
like, cool moment.
Like, hey, we we had fun, but wealso did pretty good out there.
So That's awesome. Yeah. It'sreally cool.

Bryan (47:18):
What's the hardest day you've ever had in an F18?

Fred (47:21):
Yeah. So hardest day? I talked about it earlier, but I
wouldn't say there's there'sbeen one really, really
difficult day, but veryuncomfortable be crossing the
Atlantic or any long, longflight in the F18. After a
couple hours, you just, like,need to get some blood flow
going. You need to get out andstretch your legs.
Mhmm. And you can't always dothat. So definitely the most
challenging or the most,uncomfortable flights are those

(47:42):
long transits, long crosscountries.

Bryan (47:45):
Yeah. That's fair. I heard you recently had a
memorable flight on yourpersonal airplane. Can you tell
us about that?

Fred (47:52):
Sure. So, my father and I, a few years ago, we bought an
airplane together, a small, aStinson 108-two. So it's an
airplane, a Tel draggerairplane.

Bryan (48:00):
It's so beautiful.

Fred (48:01):
Tube and fabric. It's like an old retro car. Right? And it
was built in 1947. Obviously,it's been fully restored since
then a few times.
So, yeah, we bought that thingtogether. We've been maintaining
it ourselves for a few yearsnow. So we put the aircraft from
a certified category to ownermaintenance. And ever since we
bought the airplane, know, wewere buying the air the airplane

(48:22):
from, an older gentleman thathadn't flown it in a few years.
So the airplane just needed abit of tweaking and
troubleshooting just to forexample, for the engine, it's an
older engine as well, just tomake sure that everything was
running smoothly.
So we've had, like, littlethings here and there with the
engine, but nothing major atall. So, yeah, this happened
this past summer. It was inearly June. It was the first

(48:42):
time we took the airplane outfor a flight in the summer. So,
you know, we opened up thehangar doors, and it was myself
and my fiancee.
We got in the plane. All we wereintending to do was just a a
nice little female flight aroundthe area just for fun. Do about
an hour in the local area. Justlook look at the sights. You
know, we we only fly about a 100knots in that thing, so it's
just fun sometimes.

(49:03):
It's kinda like a motorcycleride. Just go out. Right? And
Yeah. Just explore.

Bryan (49:06):
You don't have to have a reason. Just go go for a flight.

Fred (49:08):
Yeah. It's cool sometimes to just go flying for the sake
of it. Right? Yep. So we takeoff, and about 10 to 15 minutes
into our flight, we're heading,over the Sagne River towards
Bagaville.
And we took off from a smallairport called Saint Anare,
which is to the north ofBagaville. And then I start
feeling a slight change invibration from my engine, slight
change in sound, and, I justnoticed, like, a a change in

(49:31):
power output, if you will, fromthe engine. So I started looking
at yeah. My my instruments, andthen we have one gauge on the on
the airplane that, is an EGT, soexhaust gas temperature gauge.
And I started looking at everywe have 6 cylinders, so I
started looking at everycylinder.
And then I get to number 4, andI see that cylinder number 4 is
a few 100 degrees colder. So I'mlike, okay, it's just it's not
firing anymore. But usually,just like a spark plug that's

(49:53):
not firing anymore

Bryan (49:54):
or Mhmm.

Fred (49:55):
You know, it can be something very, very benign and
very basic. So I just look at,my fiancee. I said, hey, babe.
Like, Yeah. Number 4 is notfiring anymore.
This is the cylinder. It'sprobably just a spark plug.
We're just gonna turn backaround and go and go land
because, you know, you don'twanna purposely fly, you know,
an older especially an olderengine like that, on 5 cylinders
just for fun. Right?

Bryan (50:14):
Yeah. For sure.

Fred (50:15):
So we turned back around, started heading back towards
Saint Honore, the airport wherewe're based at. And, about 2 to
3 minutes after that,approximately 10 miles from the
airfield, all of a sudden, we'reabout a a 2,000 feet AGL at this
point, so above ground level.And the engine just starts
making this absolutely horriblesound, like Yeah. Bang, bang,

(50:36):
bang. Huge vibrations, huge lossof power.
Yeah. And then, like, any pilotwill tell you in an emergency
situation, it just took me a fewseconds to be like, what the
heck is is going on? Like, isthis happening for real kind

Bryan (50:49):
of thing?

Fred (50:49):
Yeah. And then I start trying to troubleshoot,
operating the different, themixture level, like, to the
different magnetos, switchingfuel tanks. I'm trying
everything just to to see whatyou know, trying to find what's
going on. At the same time, I,you know, I look at my fiance
and I said, babe, like, this isnot good. Start looking for a
field.
My fiance's a nurse, so shestayed, like I was really
stressed. She was, like, supercalm. Like, she was like, okay.

(51:12):
Yeah. No problem.
You're doing great, Fred. Like,keep doing it. And I'm like,
wow. Wow. Like,

Bryan (51:17):
No pressure.

Fred (51:17):
Yeah. You're way too calm for me right now. So we start
she starts looking for a field.I declare an emergency with the
the airport. So, you know, SaintDonaire tower.
Mayday, mayday, mayday. My golfhotel, 10 miles east. We're
having an engine engine issues,engine vibrations. I'm gonna
come back, runaway 36, which waslike the the runway pretty much
ran on my nose. So ATC, youknow, they they copy the

(51:38):
emergency.
They say, Mike Gough Hotel,like, airport is yours. You're
number 1. Rental, your choice.Do you require any further
assistance? So, as he's tellingme this, I'm still flying the
airplane, obviously.
Right? I have 88, navigate,communicate, and the engine is
just not producing any poweranymore. I'm having to to trade
altitude for air speed to keepthe airplane flying, And, it's

(51:59):
pretty evident to me, like, inthe windshield that the the
runway is getting further andfurther up on my windshield. I'm
like, I'm it's 7 miles ahead ofme. I'm not gonna make this.

Bryan (52:06):
Yeah.

Fred (52:07):
So at that moment, after ATC tells me that, I I reply, my
gov hotel, unable. We're landingon the highway. We're landing on
the highway between Shakuni andTatoo Sac, which was We had just
flown over a highway, a road,and as my girlfriend was calling
out fields, you know, to theright of us, I was looking at
them and they looked too short.They looked kind of steep. And,

(52:28):
you know, you can't verify thecondition of a field.
You know, it might be prettywet, and you could just dig
right into the to the soil,right? Yeah. So in that moment,
I made the decision that we hadjust flown over a highway and
that I was gonna be putting theairplane down on the highway, so
landing the highway. So Istarted kind of joining a a left
hand downwind, if you will, forfor the either road. There's
about a a mile stretch ofhighway.

(52:49):
There's, houses on either side.ATC, like, when I when I said
I'm landing on high over,they're like, Roger, like, we're
dispatching an emergency crews.You know, there's not much more
at that point they can do.Right?

Bryan (53:00):
Yeah. Yeah.

Fred (53:01):
So I I keep flying the airplane, join a left downwind
for the the road. And then my 2big things here are well,
there's houses on either side,so there's gonna be power lines.
And also, there's cars on theroad. Right? It's it's a
highway.
So as I'm making my Dan win, Ilook to see I'm trying to find a
good moment where I can turn infor the final, where there's no
cars that are incoming towardsme. And then just just my luck

(53:24):
that day, there was someconstruction further up on the
road where there was a very longportion of the road where there
was no incoming car. So I'mlike, perfect. This is a good
moment to turn in. I turn intowards the road.
And then, as I turn on to final,I pass over this one last car,
the Ford F150 pickup truck. It'swhite. I'm looking at the guy in
the eyes, and then he I he'sprobably looking back at me
like, what the heck is going on?Right?

Bryan (53:46):
Oh my gosh.

Fred (53:46):
And then the last thing I have to look out for is all
those power lines. And, they'rereally hard to see Yeah. Because
there's there's no, like, buoyson them or anything that or high
vis markers that I could see. SoI get on final. I I'm keeping my
speed a bit a bit higher so Ican have more maneuverability
from the airplane.
I fly over one set of powerlines thinking that those are
the last ones. And then I lookup and I see another set of

(54:09):
power lines, like, kind of righton my nose. And so I, like, do a
little bit of a a duck of fuel.I duck under the the other set
of power lines, a little bit ofa bunt. And then then, yeah,
then I'm under all the powerlines, land on the road, like, a
a 3 point landing with a towdrag around the road.
And then, yeah, start using thebrakes. And then with the I had
about 20 miles an hour left onthe airplane of of energy, of

(54:32):
kinetic energy. So I I justlooked up to the right, and
there was a little nice littlegravel driveway. And I said,
well, that looks like a goodplace to park. So I just used my
speed and kinda just turned intothe parking lot.
The engine, like, shut down. AndAnd then I look at my fiance,
and we both look at each otherlike, did that just really
happen? You know? Like, holymoly. We're we're lucky to be
alive.

(54:52):
Right?

Bryan (54:53):
Dude, I'm, like Yeah. Fully clenched up right now here
listening to this.

Fred (54:56):
This is crazy. It happened very, very quickly. And then so
we get out of the airplane. Youknow, the adrenaline's, like,
through the roof at this point.You're just like, wow.
I can't believe this justhappened. And then I'm looking
at the cars, like, expecting fora few cars or anything something
to pull up to the to theairplane, but cars just kept
driving on the road as ifnothing had ever happened. And
then finally, about 2 minuteslater, some guy pulls up on a

(55:18):
bicycle and he goes, was that,like, was that on purpose? Like,
you're why why'd you guys landhere? And I'm like, sir, like, I
did not wanna land here today.
Like, we we tried an end offailure. Can you please just
call the police maybe and andhelp us out? And so as he goes
off to call the police, I go tothe engine. I open up the kellin
for the engine, and then as I Iopen it, I see there's, like,
just oil all over the place. SoI knew, like, yeah.

(55:40):
I knew at that moment that,okay, something actually did
happen. And, yeah. So turned outto be just long story short, to
finish the story, the intakevalve on my number 4 cylinder,
it came loose.

Bryan (55:52):
Okay.

Fred (55:52):
We don't know why. You know, it's it's hard to kinda
because we're not we're nottechnicians or anything like
that. It's hard to to know why.But, the intake valve came
loose, and those engines areknown for doing this, this
particular type of engine. Theintake valve went into the was
drawn in into the cylinder bythe piston and then punched out
through the cylinder.
So there was a big hole in thecylinder.

Bryan (56:10):
Oh, wow.

Fred (56:11):
So obviously the engine was not producing any power and
just I lost all my oil in like aminute.

Bryan (56:17):
So Yeah. So was that a big fix or not too bad?

Fred (56:19):
Actually, we got real lucky. We have a really good
friend of ours who has a bunchof, parts for this airplane and
is a real subject matter experton these these airplanes. And he
had a cylinder waiting for usready to to use, so we we were
just able to change the piston,change the cylinder. And, about
a week later, my my father, tookoff from that same road with
Transport Canada approval and,the police blocking and

(56:41):
everything. So took the plan onthe side of the road and took
back off, a week later.

Bryan (56:45):
So do you guys feel good again flying it? No like, did
your fiance feel good getting inthe plane still?

Fred (56:51):
Or Yeah. Like, right after it happened, she she was a bit
shaken up, like, especially whenthe, the adrenaline started
wearing down.

Bryan (56:56):
Yeah. For sure.

Fred (56:57):
But, again, really surprising. I'm really proud of
her. She, you know, a coupleweeks later, said, I'm going
flying. Do you wanna come withme? Like, don't feel like you
have to.
Not at all. Right after whathappened. And she said, I'm
flying with you.

Bryan (57:08):
So That's awesome.

Fred (57:09):
She's a real she's a trooper.

Bryan (57:12):
What is the most fulfilling part of your job?

Fred (57:15):
Most, fulfilling part of my job, kind of as as I'm
walking towards the F 18, youknow, I've just done a bunch of
mission planning and preparationfor the flight where you kinda
you're focused, right, on on themission. And as I'm walking to
the F 18, it's kind of thatmoment, like, wow. Like, this is
pretty cool. I'm one of the oneof only few people in this
entire country that, you know,is given the keys to an f 18 to

(57:38):
go fly. Right?
It's I'm super privileged to dothat, and it's a it was a dream
come true. And every time everyflight, I try to kinda pinch
myself like, hey, man. Like,you're you're flying an F18 all
alone, and, like, the governmentand your leaders and everyone
else is trusting you to fly thisthing. So Mhmm. It's pretty
cool.

Bryan (57:55):
In 30 seconds or less, if I'm a pilot in training, why
should I want to fly the F18?What makes it unique, and who
would that appeal to?

Fred (58:01):
Yeah. So the F 18, it's the only tactical single seat
aircraft in the, Canadian ArmedForces. You're the only one
flying the jet. Right? And,you're the mayor of Cockpit
City.
You get to make kind of your owndecisions throughout the flight
while still, you know, flyingformation off of your flight
lead and still, you know, beingpart of a larger team. So that's
pretty cool. It's one of theonly communities where pretty

(58:22):
much everything you do is istactics. Right? You're training
for employing the f 18 as aweapon to help the guys on the
ground, like the soldiers on theground, or help, like, the the
bigger mission.
Right? So that's that's prettycool.

Bryan (58:33):
Yeah. I mean, it sounds amazing. It sounds like a really
cool experience. And I find itvery interesting, the mix of,
like, you need to beindependent. You need to be able
to fly by yourself in anaircraft.
It's the only, as you say, theonly solo aircraft we have.
Well, sorry, the only solotactical aircraft we have. But
at the same time, you still needto be a team player. You guys
super emphasize teamwork.

Fred (58:52):
Yeah. Exactly. You're you're always flying with with
another formation member, if notmore. So we're always working
together during the brief, themission planning, the debrief.
We're always, you know, you'reflying your cockpit, but there's
always someone else that'snearby you that's, that you have
to work with.
Right? You're never reallyworking alone.

Bryan (59:11):
So we're down to our final three questions. We ask
them to every guest on the show.What is

Fred (59:16):
the most important thing you do to keep yourself ready
for your job? Yeah. So mostimportant for me, like work life
balance. Take the time to be athome. Leave work at work.
Right? Try not to bringanything, home and, spend some
time with my dogs, my fiance.Spend a lot of time I try to
take at least an hour a day togo to the gym, stay active, stay
fit. You know, especially as afighter pilot, you wanna make

(59:38):
sure that you you're fit to dothe physically demanding tasks
that, that that requires. And,and like I said earlier, just
have a have a hobby.
Have something that you enjoydoing outside of work Mhmm. That
kinda get, you know, gets yougets your mind off of work and,
just to get away from a littlebit, recharge, and then come
back even stronger to

Bryan (59:57):
work. Yeah. I like that. It's a good balanced answer.
We've already talked about thisa little bit, but it is crazy
how all encompassing it canbecome if you let it.

Fred (01:00:05):
Exactly.

Bryan (01:00:06):
And it's so important not to let that happen.

Fred (01:00:08):
I agree.

Bryan (01:00:10):
What do you think makes a good pilot?

Fred (01:00:13):
Yeah. So what makes a good pilot? I kinda liked the, we
used to have a fighter weaponsinstructor course, which would
be Canada's, like, top gunequivalent, if you will, for
fighter pilots. And, the 3words, 3 tenets that they, they
follow is, you know, beknowledgeable, be credible, and,
be approachable. So, you know, Ithink that that goes not only to
fighter weapons instructors, notonly to fighter pilots, but,

(01:00:34):
like, any any pilot or anyleader, really, in the military.
Like, be knowledgeable. Justknow know your stuff. And even
if you don't know, like, all theanswers, you can always go back
and and look it up, right, lateron. That's that's why we we
train. That's why we fight.
And it's just come back and andlearn some lessons. Incredible.
You know, I like have always actin the best interest of, like,

(01:00:55):
you know, the team, and, justkeep the trust of your peers
high. Right? Just just be theguy that everyone wants to go to
war with and that they can trustyou no matter what.
And then be approachable. Justalways be, you know, try to be
as nice as possible. We all haveour rough days and days where we
just don't want to talk toanyone. Right? But, yeah, try to
be the guy that people aren'tscared to go up to and ask

(01:01:17):
questions or talk or Yeah.
That's about it.

Bryan (01:01:20):
I like that. Alright. For the final question, I want you
to picture a new pilot. Let'ssay someone who's in their
flight training right now in theRCAF. If you could give them one
piece of advice, what would thatbe?

Fred (01:01:32):
Yeah. So I'd say my one big piece of advice is, now when
we first joined the air force tobecome pilots, we we see all the
the steps that we have to getthrough to finally get to our
goal. Right? And it can seemlike a lot, like a mountain that
you have to climb. Right?
Mhmm. All the upgrades, all thetraining phases and whatnot. So
I'd say, like, try to reallytake everything, like, one

(01:01:54):
flight at a time, one day at atime, and try to really enjoy
that moment and that flight,because you're, like, you're
never gonna get it back, and youmight as well you know, if
you're putting in all thiseffort and you're making all
these sacrifices for something,like, at least just try to have
fun. Yeah. Yeah.
Take it in. Like, be in themoment and look at, like, look
at it day by day, fly by flight,and try not to look at the

(01:02:15):
entire mountain ahead of you.

Bryan (01:02:16):
Yeah. It's so easy to lose sight of that and to to get
focused on, like, I gotta getthis done. I gotta succeed. And
to stop enjoying that. You'reflying aircraft that most pilots
in Canada would do anything justto have a female flight in.

Fred (01:02:30):
Exactly. And then, you know, one day, I guess, you're
you're gonna be a bit older andlooking back at your young days
and being like, oh, I miss thosedays. Right? So

Bryan (01:02:38):
I already do.

Fred (01:02:38):
Yeah. There there you go. So try to, yeah. Even if you're
a a young buck moving up, thetraining system, just try to
enjoy every flight.

Bryan (01:02:46):
Alright, Fred. It's been so great to catch up again after
all these years. And I justwanna thank you so much for
taking the time out of your dayto do this interview. So thank
you very much.

Fred (01:02:55):
Brian, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much,
man. Yeah.

Bryan (01:02:59):
Alright. That wraps up our chat with Fred about the CF
18 Hornet and life in thefighter force. For our next
episode, we'll be sitting downwith Colonel Dan Coutts, the
current wing commander of 15Wing Moose Jaw, to talk about
his career flying the CH 146Griffin, as well as his time
currently as the wing commander.It was an interview I really
enjoyed doing, and I highlysuggest you check it out. Do you

(01:03:20):
have any questions or commentsabout something you heard on the
show?
Would you or someone you knowmake a great guest, or do you
have a great idea for a show?You can reach out to us at the
pilot project podcastatgmail.com or on all social
media at atpodpilotproject. We'dlike to thank you for joining us
in this new year and wish you ahappy new year. And as always,
ask for a strong start with yourhelp with the big three. That's

(01:03:43):
like and follow us on socialmedia, share with your friends,
and follow and rate us 5 starswherever you get your podcasts.
That's all for now. Thanks forlistening. Keep the blue side
up. See you.