Episode 41: The Wing Commander: Commanding 15 Wing Moose Jaw and flying the CH-146 Griffon Part 1 - Dan Coutts

What is it like to fly the CH-146 Griffon for 427 Squadron as it transitioned from a normal Tac Hel Squadron to being part of CANSOFCOM? What about flying in Bosnia, or being Special Operations Support in Afghanistan? How do you take 400 Reserve Tactical Helicopter Squadron and help prepare them for high readiness status? Colonel Dan Coutts is the current Wing Commander of 15 Wing Moose Jaw. In part 1 of our chat with him, we will discuss his early flying days, some of his deployments, as well as some of his leadership opportunities that prepared him leading up to his time as 15 Wing Commander.

Episode Transcript

Bryan (00:29):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the pilot
project podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from the
pilots of the RCAF. I'm yourhost, Brian Morrison. With me
today is the current wingcommander of 15 Wing Moose Jaw,
colonel Daniel Coutts. Dan,welcome to the show, and thanks
so much for being here.

Dan (00:44):
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me, Brian.

Bryan (00:45):
Yeah. It's my pleasure. Thanks. So before we get
started, let's go over Dan'sbio. Dan joined the Canadian
Armed Forces in 1995.
In 1999, he completed hisstudies at the Royal Military
College of Canada, or RMC, inKingston, Ontario. And after
receiving his pilot wings as ahelicopter pilot, he started his
career with 427 squadron flyingthe CH 146 Griffin in Petawawa,

(01:07):
Ontario. After several rewardingyears with the Lions and
deployments to Bosnia andAfghanistan, he was promoted to
major and worked in armycollective training in Kingston.
His flying supervisory tour with400 squadron in Borden, Ontario
was followed by the jointcommand and staff program at
Canadian Forces College, CFC, inToronto. As CO of 2
expeditionary readiness centerand CO of 2 air expeditionary

(01:31):
squadron under 2 Wing inBagotville, Dan deployed to
operation provision as the aircomponent coordination element
director in Beirut.
In 2016, he assumed the role asthe deputy commander of the
Canadian Aerospace WarfareCentre in Trenton, Ontario,
followed by acting commander 1Wing in Kingston from January to
May of 2019. Following hisdeployment period 4 education at

(01:52):
the United States Air Force AirWar College in Alabama, he
filled the role of Combined AirOperations Center director,
managing the RCAF GlobalOperations for over 2 years. In
2022 to 2023, he assumed therole of a 5 a 7 at 1 Canadian
Air Division headquarters inWinnipeg. Dan holds an air
transport pilot license,helicopter license, as well as

(02:14):
numerous qualifications andcertificates, a bachelor of
honors in English and a master'sdegree in security, defense
management and policy at RMC, amaster's of defense studies at
Canadian Forces College, amaster's of strategic studies
from the United States Air ForceAir University, and a doctorate
of social sciences at RoyalRoads University in Victoria,
BC, specializing in workplaceculture change. Dan assumed

(02:37):
command of 15 Wing Moose Jaw,the center of the RCAF aircrew
training on July 14, 2023.
So, Dan, what sparked yourpassion for flying?

Dan (02:46):
Yeah. If I go back to when I was a kid, I can think of 2
events. The first was taking outa library book looking at,
helicopters, interestinglyenough, and the theory of flight
and how they work. And I justremember being fascinated by
that as a little kid. And thesecond one was Expo 86.
I grew up in the West Coast. Myparents took me out to Expo 86.
And we saw a lot of really neatthings. Like, there's a mock up

(03:07):
of what the ISS was going to be,and there is, you know, all
these fantastic displays thatyou always have at an expo. But
I remember all the differentkinds of airplanes.
There's biplanes. There's flyingcars. There's gliders. There's
ultralights, kit planes. And itI just remember thinking it was
so neat to see those aircraft.
Then, of course, all the other,things you might do when you're
growing up, going to an air showand seeing the snowbirds fly and

(03:31):
all the other demonstrationteams. I mean, these things also
inspired me. And then later onjoining the Royal Canadian Air
Cadets, you know, that actuallymade it seem like it was a a
possible thing to do. But, youknow, I think the first memories
are really that book and also,going to Expo 86 and seeing
those those little airplanes andall the the wonderful things
people have designed over theyears.

Bryan (03:50):
That's awesome. What a great memory. So you are another
yet another guest who got theirstart in the Royal Canadian Air
Cadets.

Dan (03:57):
Yes.

Bryan (03:58):
Did you get your pilot's license or glider license while
you were in cadets?

Dan (04:02):
Yeah. I did my glider license. So that was in
Chilliwack 1994. And and thatwas a really cool way to kick
off a flying career, learninghow to fly something with no
engine. I mean, it still servesme well today.
It's less of a less of a stresswhen when when something turns
off, you know, that you've, doneit before.

Bryan (04:20):
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I loved gliding. That was probably
one of the best summers of myteenage years by far.
It's just such an incredibleexperience, and flying a glider
is very unique. So it's reallycool.

Dan (04:33):
Yeah. There's nothing like being up in a glider where it's
silent. I had the opportunity toalso fly 2 times in Chilliwack
at the Hope Flying Club and dothe the ridge soaring, and that
was that was pretty phenomenaljust being feet away from the
edge of the rock cliff, rockingalong, in relative silence, and
and still moving up. That wasreally neat. I'd love to go back
and try that again.

Bryan (04:51):
Yeah. That sounds amazing. What motivated you to
join the Canadian Armed Forcesspecifically to pursue flight?

Dan (04:58):
The main one was to become a pilot. I was interested in
other subjects in high schooland and, you know, certainly
would have considered otherthings, but it was my number one
choice to become a pilot. So,when the opportunity came, I I
jumped at it. At the time, weweren't accepting pilots to
anything but the regular officertraining program at the military
college, so that became thepathway. And, I was fortunate

(05:20):
enough to be to be picked up forthat after, I graduated from
high school.

Bryan (05:24):
And at the time, basically, the forces just
seemed like the best route tobecoming a pilot?

Dan (05:29):
Certainly. It seemed like the the training they offered
was going to be, second to none.And, you know, they they gave
you a degree in in the mix atthe same time. You had the
opportunity to certainly work. Imean, you had an obligation to
work once you passed your pilottraining certainly for several
years, but you're guaranteed jobwhen you first get out.
And at the time in the air,industry in the the mid

(05:52):
nineties, if I remembercorrectly, it it wasn't as easy
as we've seen in some periodssince, you know, the the airline
industry and the aviationindustry in general goes up and
down. And at that time, youknow, being a young person
looking at it, it seemed like,you know, if I could get into
the military and get into thepilot train stream, that would
be a really good way to go.There's less uncertainty about

(06:15):
that. And then, you know,ultimately, if pilot train
hadn't worked out, we were stillthe benefits of a degree and and
still having a a paycheck at theend of the day. And that was
initially what what attracted meto it.
But, certainly, as I've gone onfrom my service, been more than
just paycheck. It's been a lotof fun.

Bryan (06:29):
Yeah. For sure. I can, empathize with that feeling of,
job security. The fact that notonly are you gonna get trained,
but you're gonna go straightinto a job. Like, there really
is no other place that you havea guaranteed job once you come
out qualified to do it,especially, like you said,
during certain times.
I imagine, you know, right nowwe're seeing a mass retiring

(06:50):
happening within the airlineindustry, so there's tons of
recruiting going on. It's agreat time to, get into aviation
in general. But like you said,that comes and goes in waves.
And if you're there at the wrongpoint in the wave, then
definitely a good place to be isin the military.

Dan (07:04):
Yeah. It can be, very, demoralizing for sure when you
you work as a as a line rat foryears on a on a smaller
commercial airline or helicopteroperation, and you only get the
occasional chance to fly. Thatthat can be very difficult.

Bryan (07:18):
Yeah. I would think so.

Dan (07:20):
So So

Bryan (07:21):
you started your flight training on the Slingsby T 67 C
Firefly, which focuses onfundamental flying skills. What
was phase 1 training like atthat time, and was it still a
weeding out process?

Dan (07:31):
It was definitely a weeding out process. The the syllabus
that we do today is verysimilar, albeit, a different
aircraft. But the thefundamentals of flight were the
same, you know, how to take offland, do a circuit, how to taxi,
how to work on the radios, thethe fundamentals of meteorology,
aerodynamics, engines, and eventhe simpler systems like what's

(07:52):
a radio, how you use it, youknow, what's a braking system on
an aircraft, how does it work,even those simple things. So
everything you do with a privatepilot license from a theoretical
and and applied perspective,plus the addition of aerobatics,
but also less perhaps thenavigation, some of the
instrument flying. But at thetime, it was very much a
selection course.

(08:13):
We've improved our selection,with the aircrew selection
center in Trenton drasticallysince that point in time. We
have new methodologies forselecting pilots. So that's
actually seen a significantdecrease in the number of,
failures that come out of thatphase one training. So in that
respect, it is it is different.We have a higher caliber of
person going into it, and we'rewe're sure that they have the

(08:34):
right competencies so they canfocus a bit more on the the
fundamentals of flying as theygo into the training now.

Bryan (08:40):
Yeah. I recently did, and listeners can look for the
episode on aircrew selection.And it's so interesting how much
that has changed, since I didit. I imagine we probably did
something similar where you goand you sit in the box and do
some simulator stuff, and thenyou write out a bunch of written
tests, and that was almost it,really.

Dan (08:59):
Yeah. I had a series of of written tests. I did it at
Downsview when that was stillopen.

Bryan (09:03):
Okay.

Dan (09:03):
And I was still sitting in the little trainer where you had
to point to the lighthouse andpoint to the, the battleship.
Oh. And, the instruments wereinside the training. So it
wasn't quite as old school as alink trainer that you see in the
museums, but it wasn't too faroff.

Bryan (09:16):
Really?

Dan (09:16):
We we've improved for sure.

Bryan (09:18):
Yeah. Yeah. And, definitely, the caliber of
people that come out of that,like, the weeding out is really
happening at a it's happeningmore downstream, which is great
because, obviously, that saveseverybody's time and money once
you actually step into anairplane.

Dan (09:31):
Absolutely. I mean, even for the candidates, it can be
certainly, if you're not,selected in an aircrew
selection, or the otherselection processes, it can be
can be a hard blow. But at thesame time, it's, it's harder
once you get into the stream andrealize it may not be a fit for
you.

Bryan (09:47):
Yeah. I'd way rather find out early and start considering
what my options might be ifthere's other careers I might
wanna do in the forces versusget in, do a full degree, do a
little bit of flight training.Now you owe time. And now it's
like, okay. What career like,maybe there's nothing that you
wanna do that's open right now.
It's a much better position, Ithink, to find out early than to

(10:07):
find out late.

Dan (10:08):
Absolutely.

Bryan (10:10):
So next, you transition to the CT 156 Harvard for more
advanced training. First of all,was that a fairly new aircraft
at the time?

Dan (10:17):
Yeah. It was brand new. I think we were the 2nd or third
course depending on how you'recounting on the aircraft and
still have the canoe car smell.And it's funny coming back to
the base now. I can see that theHarvards, and to me, it was
brand new.
But, you know, this is, well, 2022 years later now, 23 years
later. It's, it's definitely puta lot of hours on. It's been a
lot of miles on those airplanes.

Bryan (10:38):
Yeah. But they've definitely served us well. I
mean, I think the Harvard isprobably the most fun aircraft
I've ever flown.

Dan (10:44):
It it's a it's a tank. It's, it's a pretty cool little
machine.

Bryan (10:49):
So was your class excited to be on the new aircraft, or
was there anyone who was, like,disappointed not to be flying
the tutor and flying a jet?

Dan (10:58):
I think mixed feelings. I mean, it would have been fun to
fly a jet, and the tutors, itwas and still is a great little
aircraft. At the same time,Harvard was cutting edge edge at
the time, with the new, GPS thatit had on board, the ability to
do instrument approaches withthe GPS, the EFIF, the, the
radios it had on board. And, youknow, the the survival systems,

(11:20):
and the performance of theaircraft. It it made sense to go
with an aircraft like that forsure.

Bryan (11:25):
Yeah. For sure. And you mentioned EAFIS, that's
electronic flight informationsystem.

Dan (11:29):
Yes.

Bryan (11:29):
And, yeah, it's interesting you mentioned the
survival equipment because, ofcourse, the Harvard has a much
more advanced ejection seat.

Dan (11:36):
It does.

Bryan (11:37):
Yep. So you got on the Harvard. What was the most
exciting part of the course foryou?

Dan (11:43):
It was all great. I I think, you know, the aerobatics
are always fun. I really enjoyedthat aspect. I have learned to
enjoy instrument flying a lotmore. I enjoyed it at the time,
but maybe, certainly, it it wasa challenge to to go through
that.
I don't have the best brain formath, but I still really enjoy
instrument flying. I thinkformation was probably the most
exciting flying, you know,sitting there with, somebody

(12:04):
else's propeller by your wing orvice versa and, trying to follow
them as they're they'remaneuvering around the sky. That
that was a ton of fun. And lateron flying helicopters, that's
also part of what I foundreally, enjoyable being a
tactical helicopter pilot.

Bryan (12:18):
Yeah. For sure. I love formation flying. I thought it
was super exciting and just,like, it's very demanding. It's
very intense.
It's rewarding once you finallystart to master the skill
because at first, it's crazy.Like, you're the instructor
gives you control, and theyprobably take control again
within a few seconds because,obviously, everything is just so
close and the tolerances are sotight. But, eventually, you

(12:39):
start to gain that confidence.And once you can stick to the
wing during a even just during aturn or something or do a
rejoin, it's just such a coolfeeling.

Dan (12:47):
It is neat to be, you know, flying separate from another
aircraft near and then to beable to close with it and join
up safely and and then followaround in in a tight formation
is is a pretty specialexperience.

Bryan (12:58):
Yeah. For sure. You mentioned IF flying. Would you
say that was the mostchallenging part of the course?

Dan (13:04):
I wouldn't say necessarily. I mean, certainly, it's it's
pretty intense. Navigation atthe time was also a challenge.
They had changed the syllabus.And after we we finished our
training, my my cohort, mycadre, they had adjusted it
since and refined it.
So, I know it's much better, andmore focused than it used to be.
But that was certainly achallenge as well, flying around

(13:25):
at low level at, you know, 4miles a minute, trying to
navigate in the prairies. It'snot the easiest thing.

Bryan (13:32):
Yeah. That's another one that I found very exciting, but
very challenging. And, like,those first missions are so
humbling. There's just so muchto do and remember, and it's all
happening so fast. But thenfinally, you start to get it.
You get a grip on it, and thenit's a really cool feeling.

Dan (13:45):
Yeah. It's it's it's a lot of fun.

Bryan (13:48):
So what would you say was the most valuable lesson you
learned in those early days thatcontinues to influence you as a
pilot?

Dan (13:55):
I I'd say it's the most valuable series of lessons, but
I didn't realize it till lateron. The fundamentals that we
give our people during theflying training, during ab
initio training, whether it'sphase 1, 2, or 3, and then what
they get when they get to theiroperational training units. We
are a very disciplined trainingsystem, and we generate very
high quality pilots in a veryshort amount of time. That's why

(14:15):
the aircrew selection has to beso focused. And with that, those
habits you develop, thosecompetencies you, bring on board
and the abilities you have bythe time you're done as a newly
winged pilot in the air force.
Even though it's just a licensedlearner, you have a really solid
foundation. And that served meextraordinarily well as I went
forward in my my flying career.And even to this day, you know,

(14:37):
I I don't get to fly nearly asmuch as I'd like to, but those
fundamentals are there, and theycome back, like a muscle memory,
like riding a bike. And thenthat that's all back to what we
learned, and we're, you know,stringently focused on as we
went through our flying train,the level of discipline you have
with the precision that theinstructors wanted.

Bryan (14:57):
For sure.

Dan (14:58):
You know, that that that's a habit that carries forward and
serves you well, no matter whatregime you're flying.

Bryan (15:03):
Yeah. I think back to even just the things I learned
about preparation, about chairflying, arriving ready to go,
and arriving fully prepared forwhatever is coming next. I did a
flight program in university,and on the very small chance any
of my instructors are listening,I'm sorry I wasn't as prepared
as I was later on. It's it'scrazy, the difference. Just like

(15:25):
you you can't waste anyone'stime.
You have to show up ready to go.

Dan (15:28):
Absolutely.

Bryan (15:30):
We talked about what you learned that influences you as a
pilot. What did you learn thatinfluences you as a leader?

Dan (15:37):
I think that that same lesson can carry across to all
aspects of of leadership aswell, understanding that the
fundamentals are important andthen be able to to master those
fundamentals. And I don't thinkit matters what trade you're in,
what occupation. So to to be agood leader, you have to master
have mastery of of one area thetactical area of expertise. And

(15:59):
then beyond that, you can moveon to the other more soft skills
that you need to develop. But,you know, those fundamental
skills are still important atthe at the end of the day.

Bryan (16:09):
Okay. So next you were selected helicopters. Did you
choose the helo route? And ifso, what influenced that
decision?

Dan (16:16):
No. I didn't I didn't select the halo route. I was,
selected, and that's a themethroughout much of my career.
Not many of my plans, formyself, or my career survive
contact, but it's always beeninteresting. And that's if I
could say one thing to yourlisteners, when you have that
opportunity, unless there's afamily reason or significant
life reason not to, you know,when it's something you you

(16:38):
think might be interesting andyou wanna say yes, go and do it.
So I said yes to thehelicopters, even though it
wasn't my first choice. And,when I got there, it was
actually pretty magical. I mean,it's hard to figure out how that
whole rotor system works and,how, you know, gyroscopic
effects, come into play whenyou're controlling a helicopter.
But once you learn how toactually fly that thing the

(16:58):
first time you hover, that it itwas magic. It was it was really
cool.
Actually, be able to hover hoverthe small, belt 206 helicopter.
When that happened, I fell inlove with it.

Bryan (17:10):
Yeah. I always hear that the 206 is a pretty humbling
experience.

Dan (17:14):
It it definitely is.

Bryan (17:15):
When you finished your helicopter training, you were
selected to fly tacticalhelicopters on the CH 146
Griffin. You did do your on thejob training with 1 Wing in
Kingston. Did that influence youto ask for tacco? I feel like I
might know the answer to thisbased on what you just said, but
shoot.

Dan (17:32):
At that time, the way it was managed, we also didn't
really get to choose our slots.We could state a preference, but
we had, on my course, I think, 1seeking slot, no SAR slots, and
rest for Taqal. And the majorityof them went to either 4 weight
or 4 30 squadron. So I selected427 definitely because of the,
location and, proximity to otherpeople I knew in Ontario. You

(17:54):
know, that was definitely partof it.
But, yeah, Takayo had been Iguess, my exposure when I was
working on the job training at 1week headquarters lessened any
of the angst I I would have feltmaybe having if I'd not had that
exposure to tachyon beforehand.Certainly, there's a reputation
of of tachyon being a hard placeto be sometimes. I think that's

(18:15):
somewhat unwarranted. I thinkit's a great place to be. And by
having that previous experience,I I didn't have that same
anxiety that maybe some of myother colleagues at the time
would have had.

Bryan (18:24):
And that's sort of something you still see these
days in selection. Right? Like,I remember when I went through,
I was going through multi enginetraining, but I remember pretty
much everyone who's goingthrough helo was going tac hill
at the time. There are timeswhere people there's a lot of
choices and people can maketheir choices, and there are
other times where it'sbasically, hey. You're going
tackle.
Which unit do you wanna be in?

Dan (18:44):
Yep. And just like flying in the civilian world, they're
all great jobs at the end of theday. There's not that's one
thing I say to the students herewhen they come on phase 2.
There's not a bad cockpit in theair force. And having been the a
3, looking at those globaloperations, you really, really
came home to me, the kinds ofawesome things that all of our
fleets are doing around theworld every day.
There's no bad place to end up.

Bryan (19:05):
Yeah. A 100%. I I totally agree. And we've said it many
times, but it really the biggestdetermining factor for how your
career is gonna go is theattitude you bring to wherever
you end up.

Dan (19:15):
Absolutely.

Bryan (19:17):
So you mentioned you were posted to Petawawa at 427
squadron, which was still anormal tactical helicopter
squadron at the time.

Dan (19:25):
It was.

Bryan (19:25):
What were those early years like for you? And did you
feel adequately prepared?

Dan (19:30):
I think I was adequately prepared. The the school at
Gagetown that does theoperational training for the the
Griffin helicopter, just likeall the other OTUs, it it was
really well done. Theinstructors were highly focused
and, dedicated to getting thestudents through and showing us
what we needed to do to be safe,and and how to actually fight
that platform. So you came onunit. Certainly, you you're

(19:52):
coming on for a period ofapprenticeship before you can
upgrade the aircraft captain asa as a new copilot.
But we had, some really goodtraining under our belts. And
then when we got on thesquadron, we had a lot of senior
captains in the squadron whocould take us under their wings
and show us how to do thebusiness. So I think we were
pretty fortunate at that time tohave that senior mentorship on

(20:13):
the on the squadron, not thecaptain rank, some of the major
rank as well, but especiallythose senior captains. They
really took care of us and tooka keen interest in making sure
we were developing as pilots.The same could be said as well
from the flight engineers.
You know, you're flying with thecrew now, and you gain a lot of
insight and wisdom from thoseflight engineers who were
technicians before and now, anintegral part of the flying

(20:34):
crew.

Bryan (20:35):
Yeah. You're a you're a fool if you don't listen to your
flight engineers. Yeah. Theyare, they have so much
knowledge. They can teach you somuch.
I learned so so much about theAurora from my flight engineers,
and I was I am very, verygrateful to those guys for their
patience and, and for theirtheir mentorship. And, and
speaking of mentorship, youmentioned the, captain mentors

(20:57):
you had as well. It's crazy howmuch of a difference it makes in
your career, basically, justbased on the roll of the dice of
what kind of mentors you have.And it sounds like you were
pretty lucky with yours.

Dan (21:08):
The the Lions were a good place to be at that point in
time for sure.

Bryan (21:12):
So what was your favorite part of your time on 427?

Dan (21:16):
When I I became more senior, I mean, all of it was
awesome. The first two tours,being there with a a cohort of
people, a a lot of friends thatyou get to, work and hang out
with after, and you're, youknow, you're at that point in
your life where things arestill, new and exciting, and
everything is a new experience,you get to go through that with
a a close group of people.That's that's a lot of fun and a

(21:36):
a really neat experience that,it does exist outside the
military, but certainly is isone of the things you can expect
in a military career, if you'refortunate enough to have a tight
unit like that. It's it's it's areally, special time in your
life. So that that part was wasamazing, but then the flying as
well.
As I became more senior andbecame a flight instructor on

(21:58):
squadron and standards, I reallyenjoyed the, night flying. I I
don't have too much time ongoggles, but the time that I did
have, I got to instruct, some ofthe MG formation flying. That
was that was really exciting andfun teaching somebody who has
experience at the time, youknow, we we were transitioning
to goggles. We we've been doinggoggles for for many years, but

(22:23):
it hadn't become probably as asroutine as maybe it is now
flying with the the goggles. Andso there are still things that
we need to learn.
In the formation of flying lowlevel, that was, a lot of work,
but a lot of fun too. And beingin Petawawa to do that, it was
an amazing flying range as well.You roll out of the squadron,
you're right into the ranges, oryou're off your Algonquin Park,

(22:44):
or you go across the river, andit's, you know, hundreds of
kilometers of just, wildernessand and, lots of opportunity for
low level flying and navigation.

Bryan (22:53):
Yeah. NVGs. So I've only ever done one flight with NVGs.
We're gonna talk a little bitabout your time with 400
squadron in a bit, but that'sactually where I did my OGT as
well in, 2009, 2010. So I thinkthat's just before you got
there.

Dan (23:06):
Just before.

Bryan (23:07):
Yeah. So but I I got to go for one flight with MBGs, and
it is magic. Those things are socool. It was such an incredible
experience. Like, I can onlyimagine what it's like to
actually be up in upfront doingthe flying.
But what would you say like,what's the most challenging part
of flying with MBGs?

Dan (23:23):
Depends on the the illumination. The older goggles
would wash out if you faced intothe light, like, if you had the
AMBA sixes. The the I flewprimarily with the nines. They
are much better, for washout,and they could pick up a lot
more ambient light. But past acertain point, when it gets
really, really dark, even if youhave a HUD, it can be
challenging.
You know, when those gogglesstart to sparkle and you get to

(23:44):
really low millelux, you don'thave a lot of references around,
and then you really have tofocus on your crosscheck. It
goes back to that disciplinedcomment I made about my my
primary flight training. I havean issue of training. Having a
good cross check, having thosegood fundamentals there is what
keeps you alive when, thingslike that start to happen.

Bryan (24:00):
That makes sense. You mentioned a term, millilux.
What's that?

Dan (24:04):
Just the level of illumination at night with the
infrared radiation that might beavailable. Usually, it comes
from from the moon or from,other ambient lighting. But when
you have a really dark night, ifthere's no moon, overcast sky,
no ambient lighting, you'regonna be really, really low on
those goggles. What they do isthey accelerate the existing
light in that spectrum, andthere there just may not be any

(24:26):
of that light there.

Bryan (24:27):
Okay. And so basically, once it gets lower, you said it
sort of starts to get what, likegrainy essentially?

Dan (24:32):
Yeah. The goggles look grainy, and they start to have
little sparkles in them, wherethe tubes are trying to, you
know, accelerate what they seein that spectrum and and make an
image on the screen, but it'sjust not working.

Bryan (24:42):
Okay. Right on. So we've talked about your kind of early
days, your early flying days.Let's talk a little bit about
some of the experiences you hadlater on and some of your growth
as a leader. You served in avariety of roles, including
tactical helicopter operationsin Bosnia, special operations
forces support in Afghanistan asan instructor pilot, an
operations officer, andeventually a commanding officer.

(25:04):
Could you share a particularlymemorable experience from your
deployments to Bosnia andAfghanistan?

Dan (25:10):
I think early on when I went to Bosnia, it it was great
to deploy early and to be ableto fly every single day. There's
a bunch of us off of my mycohort that got to go to Bosnia
and and do an early short tour.And to cement our skills as
pilots, as aviationprofessionals, that was that was

(25:32):
a really good opportunity. Andyou're doing it in an unfamiliar
environment, in an unfamiliarcountry. And although the threat
was low, there was still, youknow, there was still threat out
there.

Bryan (25:41):
Mhmm.

Dan (25:42):
So to have that additional tactical exposure was
beneficial. During that time, Ialso had a really cool
experience. We had to domaintenance on the the Bell 412,
and the company that was doingit wouldn't do it in Bosnia. So
they're up in the CzechRepublic, which wasn't part of
NATO or the EU at the time. Sowe actually had to fly across
the Alps in the hell in thehelicopter and bring it up there
for to swap it out so they couldwork on another helicopter, then

(26:05):
we brought back the one theyjust done the work on.
So as a brand new brand newfirst officer, I I I was
probably worth, about as much asa as a half decent, autopilot at
that point in time in terms ofmy skill level and what I
contribute. But it was a areally big learning experience
to be able to go over mountains,low level airways, VFR in
Europe. You know, that that was,definitely a formative

(26:28):
experience from a flyingperspective.

Bryan (26:30):
I also deployed fairly early in my time on the Aurora,
to Op Impact in Kuwait flyingover Iraq and totally same
experience, just getting puttingin the reps, flying. And for us,
it was every other day, justflying like crazy and getting
100 of hours in a short periodof time. It really, really
solidifies all those skills thatyou've learned at your OTU, like

(26:50):
your operational training unit.

Dan (26:52):
Yep. When I got to Afghanistan, I wasn't in a
flying role. I was supporting atask force there, for several
months organizing air andaviation support for both
routine operations and, and,kinetic operations. But one of
the things that happened while Iwas there was the visit of the
Manley panel. And so the taskforce was largely responsible
for security and helping tocoordinate the transportation of

(27:14):
that task force, and I got toplay a small role in that.
And and that was pretty neat tosee, that historic group of
people come through, do that,nonpartisan analysis of what
Canada needed for Afghanistan,and then come back with the
recommendations, one of whichultimately, saw the deployment,
later on of the the Chinooks andthe Griffins Afghanistan to help

(27:35):
support our troops on theground, and the the entire
coalition effort there. So thatwas that was pretty neat to be
part of that effort as well andto see, you know, when a nation
actually has a conversationabout their defense and decides
that they need to change it, howquickly it actually can change.

Bryan (27:52):
Yeah. That's that's interesting. I I remember the
early days of Afghanistan werereally a time of big change in
terms of Canada's capabilities,our equipment, I think some of
our weaponry, and just kinda howwe were using our our
capabilities.

Dan (28:09):
Absolutely. There is a a rapid period of very rapid
evolution. Doesn't matter ifyour army need, your air force
is off. There was a lot ofchange going on in the forces at
that time. And, you know, to thecredit of the leadership at that
time at all levels, you know,that was a tremendous amount of
work to to change thingsrapidly.
And I think you're gonna seethat now as well with the huge
investment the air force ismaking. The government is and

(28:31):
and Canada is making in the airforce, you know, all the
programs that have beenannounced in the last, 24
months. It's one of the biggestrecapitalizations in the air
force. So similar levels acrossall levels of DND and and the
CAF working right now to makethose kinds of changes happen.
So it's gonna be impressive tosee.

Bryan (28:47):
Yeah. I think there's gonna be some really interesting
challenges that rise out of itas we kind of try to maintain
our skills and and, adapt to thenew skills that we need to have.
I think it's gonna be a very,very interesting time of
transformation for the AirForce.

Dan (29:02):
Absolutely. And when I look back to my Afghanistan
experience, both, supporting thearmy and the Air Force, The
transformation that happenedthere, there was, you know,
there was that imperative to dothat work quickly, but then you
also understand that at certaintimes, leadership will be
willing to take more risks foreven just to get the 4th
generation done, and theinvestment will be will be

(29:23):
there. And sometimes that can behard to see when you're grinding
out in a unit or a smallheadquarters day in, day out,
and and you feel like nothing'schanging. But ultimately, when
those periods happen, you know,that change does happen in in
relative terms fairly quickly.

Bryan (29:40):
Oh, for sure. If I look back at the years of my career,
you can see you can see whenwe're in basically, a flash
point for change. When you areon specific operations and they
realize there's a capabilitygap, that's when you really
often see, like, a rapid changein what we're able to do or what
equipment we have.

Dan (29:59):
Absolutely.

Bryan (30:00):
So how do these tours contribute to your understanding
of leadership and teamwork inhigh pressure environments?

Dan (30:06):
Tied to my initial studies, when I did my master's, my first
master's, one of the things thatstarted to, I guess, unsettle
me, pick at me, irritate me alittle bit is how hard it was to
get different groups to worktogether even though we're on
the same team. Ultimately, Iwrote a my my project for my
first master's on air landintegration, focusing on that

(30:29):
and what the conditions are thathelps you get through and and
and help resolve some of thosethose gaps that exist when
you're in that joint environmentor in a joint and combined
environment. Those experiencesin Bosnia help to highlight some
of those challenges, and howhard it can be to bring it
together and then alsohighlighted, ultimately, for me,

(30:49):
the importance of doingcollective training with
partners ahead of time to makesure that you can actually
operate together because we havedifferent technical focuses. We
have different ways of doingbusiness, and they're
compatible, but we have to workthrough it and practice it ahead
of time if you wanna beeffective when you hit the
ground. I think that's probablythe biggest thing is the
importance of that, working withpeople ahead of time and and

(31:12):
making sure you have that thoserelationships established and a
bit of a shared understandingand a bit of that trust, before
you get to somewhere where youreally have to lean on each
other.

Bryan (31:21):
Now you mentioned that those were lessons that were
learned in Bosnia. Do you thinkyou saw those lessons learned
made good on by the time we werein Afghanistan?

Dan (31:30):
Certainly, when you look at the collective training efforts,
especially that the RA putforward and the the air force as
they started to deploy the airwing, their efforts in
collective training, theyinvolved each other constantly.
No. They, they pulled the airforce into, most levels of army
collective training, and we didthe same on the air force side,
where we could. So I, yeah, Ithink, to a certain extent, I I

(31:53):
I wasn't involved in collectivetraining when we went to Bosnia,
so I'm not sure how much thatwas or was not a problem for my
leaders at the time. Butcertainly what I saw in
Afghanistan, there is arecognition of a need to, have
that kind of training at boththe tactical and operational
levels, or the high tacticallevel, when you're looking at
those forces that we deployed.

Bryan (32:13):
Awesome. And just for the listeners, we mentioned joint
and combined operations. I knowthose terms sound very similar.
Do you wanna explain joint andcombined?

Dan (32:22):
For sure. Joint operations would be when you have different
elements or environments likethe army navy, air force soft as
the primary military elementswhen they have to work together
because we have differentchallenges in the, domains we
work in. Sometimes our planningor procedures are are somewhat
different. So when we want toget ready to work together on a

(32:43):
common operation, that's a jointoperation, and we have to
practice for that to make surethat we can find the differences
in our different protocols andprocedures and make sure we can
align those before they become aproblem. Combined operations is
when we have a multinationalcontext, and we have to do the
same kind of activity betweennations.
So when you look at NATO as anexample and what we're doing in
Latvia today with the armysupporting, several NATO NATO

(33:06):
nations as well as Ukraine,That's part of what we're doing
over the over there as well as acombined, a series of combined
exercises. They're making surethat you have that
interoperability working aheadof time as well.

Bryan (33:19):
Yep. Exactly. While you were in 427, it switched from
I'll call it a normal tac hellsquadron to being part of
Canadian Special OperationsForces Command or CAN SOFCOM.
Yes. Transitioning from tacticalhelicopter squadron to a special
operations forces or softenvironment is a big change.
What was it like being part ofthat transition?

Dan (33:38):
So this is one of those cases where if the armed forces
and DND and the governmentdecide it's important enough,
they'll be willing to take risk.And I think I'd have to talk to
the people who were leading atthat time. It it felt like they
they did. It wasn't a slowtransition. It was a very fast
transition to say, okay.
Now you are soft. And I thinkfor many of us who were captains

(33:58):
at the time, and, you know,sergeants, master corporals, the
working ranks on that unit, Thattransition was certainly
initially unsettling because youdon't necessarily know, what
that new culture is, how you fitinto it, how you're supposed to
operate. We didn't have thatexample other than some people
had had exposure to specialoperation forces in other

(34:19):
countries. On the aviation side,many of us didn't have that
exposure. CAD Softcon was reallygood about helping to help bring
us on board and helped explainto us what it meant to be in in
in a special operations team,the special operation forces
team.
And then there's also academicslike and, leaders like Bernd
Horn wrote books that helpedwith that cultural adjustment.

(34:41):
And and quite frankly, theleaders we had at the time, you
know, they put a lot of effortinto helping us understand what
it meant to be, on that team andwhat it was going to mean for
the, Canadian Armed Forces goingforward and what we had to do to
make it better. And then there'sleaders who were maybe my
generation or a generation aheadof me that went off and did
other things like, generalMorehand now, when he did his

(35:04):
command of staff program, didresearch on selection processes.
And that really helped toprofessionalize 4 27 as well
once they started to implementthat. And over time, Canadian
Special Operations ForcesCommand has grown, and has
become, they were always mature,but matured in other areas.
And and certainly specialoperations aviation is is one of

(35:25):
those areas where it's reallyreally become its own it's not
not its own domain inside ofsoft, but it's it's really come
into its own. So I was justgrateful to be there at the
beginning of that. I I didn'tget to stay there for too long.
I was only there for maybe twoand a half years after the
transition, but during the timeI was there, it was, it was a
pretty pretty remarkableexperience to be part of that

(35:47):
significant and rapid change.

Bryan (35:49):
Yeah. It sounds kind of intimidating, to be honest.

Dan (35:51):
I think it was initially, but the other thing that was
really great about working with,CSOR and to a certain extent,
JTF 2 and, the other elementsinside of Concoursevcom was you
got to see, very highly skilledprofessionals, you know, quietly
doing their job, at levels thatare are second to none around

(36:15):
the world. And you get to apoint where you see perhaps a
master corporal can brief ageneral on an operation, and,
they're able to do that becausethey are that motivated, that
talented. They've been selectedand trained and equipped for
that job, and and they just doit so well. So to be part of a
motivated team that's sodedicated to mission success and

(36:36):
always finding a way, that waseye opening for me as well.

Bryan (36:41):
Yeah. When you deal with anyone kind of in the soft world
or start techs, these kind ofelite people, it's amazing the
energy they bring to the table,that professionalism. Like you
said, that quietprofessionalism, that kinda,
like, can do attitude. It it'sreally amazing to to be around
that.

Dan (36:58):
It it was, something I really enjoyed. Although I
didn't get a chance to go back,it's certainly one of the most
special points in my careerbeing able to be, for a short
amount of time, part of thatcommunity.

Bryan (37:08):
Yeah. What would you say were some of the key challenges
you faced during this time oftransition?

Dan (37:14):
Just learning what we needed to be as a special
operations aviationorganization, developing what
the new training needed to be,how we'd inculcate new people
into the, aviation operation thespecial operations aviation
community, how we could actuallywork with the different
supported elements inside ofCANsoftcom, and support them.

(37:36):
And, you know, the challengescontinue on it. And and to some
extent, those are the samechallenges with change anywhere
you go. Just happened to be ourparticular context at the time.

Bryan (37:46):
Yeah. For sure. So later on, you did some time in army
collective training. How didyour time as an air liaison
officer in Afghanistan help youduring that posting? Did you
find it was a steep learningcurve as an air force officer to
be at an army training center?

Dan (38:01):
Certainly, my deployment to Afghanistan helped me when it
came to both training air taskforces and army, army, rotations
as they went out the doorbecause I'd had a bit of
exposure to Afghanistan and andwhat operations looked like
there for, counterinsurgencyoperations. That helped for
sure. When I deployed myself, mycollective training, I think,

(38:22):
was maybe 2 weeks long anddidn't have much of it. It was
really more individual trainingand and how to not step on my
own toes, which was appropriatefor the role I was doing at the
time. But with the collectivetraining, when you're trying to
get a a a group together, youknow, a lot of our collective
training focuses on, you know,larger building up larger teams
and then larger headquarters andteaching them how to synchronize

(38:44):
things across, multiplesuborganizations, if you will,
to simplify it.
You know, that takes, time andand determined effort to to put
together. That was a learningcurve, and I I learned a ton in
army collective training abouthow the army was doing that, how
they used their missionessential task list to develop
training, how that was,carefully designed and

(39:08):
considered ahead of time, andhow that also integrated well
with the lessons learned programthat they had at the time,
feeding lessons back fromoperations to the tactical and
operational level of, what wewere doing when it came to
training those task forces.

Bryan (39:21):
Right on. Now when you say collective training, is that
the same as joint training,essentially?

Dan (39:26):
It is similar. But if I have, for example, a squadron as
a basic unit of the air force,if I want to train that squadron
of helicopters in a in anoperation where we're also going
to have, say, a tactical airliftsquadron of of Hercules or an
attachment, and then you'regonna add in some contracted

(39:46):
helicopters, maybe a UAV. Thatwould be then collective
training because we essentiallyhave an air wing. So not only do
those elements need to learn howto work together potentially
and, leverage each other'sstrengths and also fill in the
gaps of each other's,vulnerabilities or limitations.
We also need the headquarters tolearn how to operate all those
fleets, how to manage an airoperation that's a bit more

(40:08):
complicated, how they willintegrate into the wider theater
system for airspace control andtasking, the national system for
making sure we're taking toaccount the appropriate risk,
decision space for that taskforce in accordance to what's
what's been given to us by ourgovernment.
And then also the mostfundamental aspect, in in my

(40:29):
opinion, is developing that teamin a way so they have
organizational learning, as ahabit. You know, when they first
go out the door, there's no waywe're going to give them every
scenario, every playbook,because the enemy gets to vote
too. And it becomes imperativein collective training that the
headquarters at a wing level, ata battalion level, at a brigade

(40:51):
level, that they have theability to learn from everything
that's going on. And and thatwas probably the hardest thing
to implement, in my opinion, fora lot of this collective
training is bringing that groupof people together and saying,
yeah. You're doing really well,but you also need to learn how
to learn as a group, not justindividually.
And that was the probably thebiggest challenge out of out of
all, for for all the rotationsthat we trained up was how to

(41:12):
inculcate that thatorganizational learning, and
that that was the the core, inmy opinion, of a lot of the
collective training.

Bryan (41:19):
I think that's kind of the crux of a lot of military
operations is that the easy partis the stuff that's, you know,
emergency procedures, like step,step, step, step. This is what
I'm doing. Okay. The emergency,you know, in a in a simulator,
the emergency is complete.Everything's secure.
But in the real world, youactually have to learn, and
there's a lot of situations thataren't exactly by the book. It

(41:41):
isn't exactly by the manual. Andyou actually have to kind of
adapt and learn and and figureout how to do it. And that's
always the most challengingpart.

Dan (41:48):
And then there's always the question, now what what next and
who needs to know?

Bryan (41:52):
Yeah. For sure. So you've got some experience in both
worlds, army and air force. Whatwould you say the army does
best, and what does the airforce do best?

Dan (42:02):
I think tied to their domains, you know, our domains
really define what we need tobe, and that's why we have
different areas where we weexcel, for the army. Certainly,
when you're managing a a morecomplicated operation like you
do at a brigade level or evenmore so at a DIV level, and I
say this just from my myexposure to the army vicariously

(42:23):
as well as the army operationstraining I had as a captain. You
need to be able to do a lot ofcomplicated planning with a lot
of different entities that havedifferent capabilities,
integrate that, and synchronizeit. And so that's where you get
that iterative planning cyclethat is so key to army,
collective battle procedure,and, you know, at a certain

(42:46):
level, operational planningprocedure. And that's why the
army produces such goodplanners.
They have to, as as part oftheir business, do that day in,
day out. On the air force side,I think because of the way we
fight, the platforms we have,the capabilities we employ, we
have to be much more technicallyfocused. So if you're to take an
army captain, a senior armycaptain, they're probably gonna

(43:07):
be a bit more of a generalistand extremely strong in that,
planning using multiplecapabilities. And if you're
gonna take a senior air forcecaptain, they're gonna be a
very, good pilot in in the caseof pilots, and they're going to
be a a technical expert in theirone particular domain. And if
you're an area officer, ifyou're an axo, if you're a

(43:28):
weapons controller or ATC or apilot, you know, you're going to
be very technically, adept atwhat you do if you're at the top
end of your game.
So there's a slight differencethere just based on how we we
employ. And I think that's wherewe'd be, you know, you have
different strengths if you're inthe army or the air force, but
they're also complimentary whenyou join them up on joint
operations.

Bryan (43:48):
Disclaimer. The following is an uneducated retired air
force officer's guess at life inthe army. If I have it wrong,
please forgive me. That's reallyinteresting. I think it kind of
speaks as well to the way weemploy our officers differently
within the army and the airforce.
The army is kind of, well, ifyou look at your your classic,

(44:08):
like your platoon commander orwhat have you, they're pretty
much instantly, as a juniorlieutenant in a leadership role,
and they're focusing more onthat leadership and that
planning. Whereas, like yousaid, a captain tends to be more
in the air force, moretactically focused. They're more
of an operator, doing thebusiness, whereas maybe in the
in the platoon that I saw I'musing as an example, there would

(44:30):
be the the privates and thecorporals doing the tactical
business while the the platooncommander keeps things going.

Dan (44:36):
And I think the sergeants, you know, it's the same for the
air force when you have a unitwith a lot of maintainers on it,
and other trades. You know, thesergeants play a major role in
keeping that unit together andand getting stuff done. I think
also when you look at Ukrainenow, though, and the future of
operations, we're probablyseeing some convergence in those
areas. You know, the army is byno means, you know, are they not

(44:57):
tactical. They're they'readopting more and more highly
tactical systems, especially as,you know, the army has to fight
thinking about space and cyberall the time.
In the air force, we're the sameas well. We're converging
towards, more, complicatedarrays of capabilities, and we
also have to think about thosesame kinds of things. There
might be a bit of convergencethere as well. It'll be it'll be
interesting to see how thatevolves.

Bryan (45:19):
Yeah. For sure. That's definitely Ukraine is definitely
kind of our peak at what thefuture of of modern battle space
looks like.

Dan (45:27):
Certainly in that European context.

Bryan (45:28):
Yeah. Your posting as a flying supervisor was at 400
squadron during its transitionto a high readiness status. The
squadron conducted training inplaces like Wainwright, Alberta
and Inuvik NorthwestTerritories. What did this
change involve, and what werethe biggest obstacles you
encountered during thistransition?

Dan (45:45):
As we were drawing down, the helicopter capability from
Afghanistan, we needed to givetime for 408 squadron, 430
squadron as the primary maneuverunits and one wing time to
reconstitute. So at the time,the leadership had decided to
put 400 squadron on highreadiness status. And so that
was the job of my my boss totake the unit to that status,

(46:06):
but we didn't necessarily haveall the people. We had a lot of
augmentees from the other unitsbecause it had not been designed
necessarily as a maneuver unit.It had been, prior to that
point, primarily a reservesquadron focused on reserve
training and augmenting otheroperations for, one wing,
leading occasionally, in otherareas as well.
But they weren't fully, designedand equipped and staffed to take

(46:28):
on a full rotation bythemselves. So for me, and I
suspect for my boss, one of thebig challenges with bringing
those people together andgetting them to work as one
team. Not that they wouldn'twant to. It's just when you're
not working day in and day outwith people, you have to invest
time in making sure that theyhave that opportunity to develop
those relationships, build thattrust and that common
understanding between them. Sothat was certainly a challenge.

(46:49):
And the collective training thatwas put together for us by the
headquarters and supported bythe army, and supported by the
air force, you You know, thatthat really helped to bring that
team together.

Bryan (47:00):
Yeah. It sounds like it would be a massive challenge
because it's a huge change to gofrom a reserve unit to a high
readiness unit.

Dan (47:06):
It was. And then they had another transition after that,
which is where they are today.They had to transit transfer to
be a aircraft maintenanceorganization, which was another
big transition for the entireenterprise, but especially for
that squadron.

Bryan (47:19):
Yeah. For sure. Can you speak to the leadership
strategies you employed to guidethe squadron through this
period?

Dan (47:24):
I think I'd look more at my boss at the time was, tenant
colonel Braithwaite, and I stillhold him up as a a role model
for that. He was very how to sayit? He was very easygoing, same
time focused, and he he showedto me that you could be friendly
and and, you know, open and andtransparent with people, at the

(47:45):
same time, still get thebusiness done. So he took that
more coaching and stewardshipapproach that I I've tried to
emulate. And, that was a biglesson for me to see because he
was different from other leadersI'd seen.
He had left the military andcome back in and brought back
with him a bunch of experience,and, he was widely respected and
liked as a leader. And, I thinka lot of it had to do with how

(48:06):
he approached people. You know,he treated them as, you know,
people as valued in their ownright and and respected what
they had to say and then wasalso honest and and direct about
the things we need to achieveand, made sure that we got it
done.

Bryan (48:21):
Yeah. He sounds like one of those rare mentors you get.
Like, there's lots of goodmentors within the Air Force,
but you get a few shiningexamples that you really wanna
emulate.

Dan (48:31):
Absolutely. I've I've been lucky to have several of those.

Bryan (48:34):
What was the most memorable experience from your
time at 400 squadron?

Dan (48:38):
Be able to take an attachment up for an op nanook
to Inuvik was was really cool.You know, as a middle range, you
know, getting towards the seniorend of my time as a as a major,
being entrusted with a group andtake them up to do operations,
by yourself with a detachment,and you're in charge. That's,

(48:59):
that's a very formativeexperience. At the time, we also
had a crash of a twin otter in2012. They fortunately,
thankfully, everybody was fine,but we were there.
They they landed on the Tundraby the Mackenzie River and
ripped off their nose gear.

Bryan (49:12):
Oh, wow.

Dan (49:12):
And so we had to send helicopters out and extract the
crew and then work with thehigher headquarters at the time
about how we'd actually support,the ongoing recovery of this
aircraft. Ultimately, it waslifted out by a contract, but we
were able to bring a bunch ofthe engineers who were out there
on exercise, sling sling a bunchof wood out there so they could
build some helicopter pads sothe contractor could eventually

(49:34):
have the ability to access thesite. We brought out the fuel
from the aircraft and recovereda lot of elements. We moved the
Rangers out there so they couldsafeguard the aircraft from
competitors and, of the 2 leggedand more the 4 legged kind, just
to protect the aircraft. And,yeah, it was a really, really,
really neat operation.
So you're doing this exercise,and all of a sudden at the end

(49:55):
of it, you have to pivot andsupport this unique planning
effort, that we hadn't reallythought through, but was you
know, thankfully, everybody isfine because it turned out to be
a very positive experience, Ithink, for the entire detachment
as we focused on trying to helpthe forces recover that that
platform.

Bryan (50:10):
I was gonna say it's so fortunate that everyone was
okay, and, basically, itprovided you guys with this I
don't wanna call it a greatopportunity because it's
obviously not great that thathappened to an aircraft. But
this opportunity to plan and toexecute execute that plan, stand
what stands out to me, you weretalking about the engineers
building helicopter platforms.Like, that's pretty impressive.

Dan (50:31):
It it was neat. We hadn't been slinging, doing sling loads
all that much the the yearsbefore in the in the tachl
squadrons, and, we had to slingall these, loads of plywood and
lumber out, which which is hardbecause it flops around a whole
bunch. So then we had to thinkabout and the flight engineers
were key to this. Now how do westabilize those loads? Then we
had they had to chop offbranches and tie them into the

(50:52):
loads so they could kindafeather the load so it wouldn't
swing as much.
You know, we had to get it outthere carefully. And then we
also had to think about howwe're going to sustain our folks
while they're out there andmaking sure we set up a schedule
to to get supplies back andforth and people and then how to
do the extraction at the end, aswe're wrapping up the exercise.

Bryan (51:11):
Yeah. That sounds like quite an experience.

Dan (51:13):
It was pretty neat. And flying up in the north, I'd love
to go back to the Arctic and flyaround the Mackenzie River Delta
again. It was is, you know,entirely different world up
there, and getting up to tuck,yuck, and seeing how people
live, in those northern regionsof Canada and, what it means.
You know, that's one of the coolthings about being the Air
Force. You get to see howCanadians live in all different

(51:34):
parts of this country, and, andand we are a pretty diverse
nation.
And and to be able to see that,was, also a very formative
experience for me.

Bryan (51:44):
Yeah. Going into Northern Canada with the with an aircraft
and and being able to fly aroundis a huge it's a huge street.
It's a privilege for sure. Sobeyond your flying roles, you've
held positions such as deputycommander of the Canadian
Aerospace Warfare Centre, actingcommander of 1 Wing, and
director of the Combined AirOperations Centre or CAOC. How
do these non flying rolesbroaden your perspective and

(52:05):
prepare you for the complexitiesof leading 15 wing Moose Jaw?

Dan (52:08):
I think I'll use the air warfare center as an example.
You know, I was definitely,challenged there to learn a
bunch of new things very quicklyas the deputy, supporting the 2
commanders I had, throughout mytenure there. And it's learning
about how the wider defenseenterprise works, what you need
to do. For example, we arestanding up 4 34 squadron, and

(52:31):
we were transforming the, airwarfare center as well. So we
had to, change the ministerialorders and the Canadian forces
orders that established thatorganization.
So understanding all thedifferent levels and how that
happens and, you know, askingfor help from a bunch of
different people because I justdidn't know how to do it, how to
how to staff that paperwork. Youknow, that was, that was very

(52:53):
educational. Understandingdifferent parts of defense,
becoming familiar with the JointWarfare Center and what they do,
and other aspects of the AirForce when it comes to different
compartmentalized programs, howthat works. Besides the Air
Force, we don't necessarily talkabout all that much but are
still extremely important to tooperations. Even the finances,
how to work with the reserves,how to hire reservists, the

(53:16):
human resources challenges, thatyou may have with, civilian
employees because our policiesand processes for Canadian
Forces members versus civilianemployees is different.
Contracting.

Bryan (53:27):
For sure.

Dan (53:28):
All those things. You know, I I I was, you know, definitely,
holding on pretty tight to thetail of the tiger throughout
that time and, learned a ton andand had a lot of help from
really good people. That was theother thing that really stuck
out to me as well. When youmaybe are more insular in your
upbringing and the forces andyou think, about your one
criteria, particularly if yourarea of expertise that you're

(53:49):
super proud about and super goodat because we've become
technical experts, Sometimes itcan be hard to see that that
technical expertise for otherpeople exists in other ways and
other places. And and The Rockreally helped me open my eyes to
that about how many dedicatedpeople are out there working to
help the forces and d and d dowhat we need to do, to put
troops out there and and torepresent Canadian, interests,

(54:13):
at home and abroad.
You know, it it it takes a hugeamount of people working, you
know, both in the short term andthe long term to make all this
happen, and that really openedmy eyes.

Bryan (54:23):
So it sounds like basically a huge appreciation
for, like, the team effort thatit takes to make these big
operations a success.

Dan (54:30):
Absolutely.

Bryan (54:31):
And that humbling learning curve of of figuring
out how to make it all work andhow to rely on your people to
help you make it all work.

Dan (54:36):
Well, and how to ask for help because, you know, even
though you might have, 2master's degrees and, you know,
a lot of experience under yourbelt, you still there's areas
you know nothing about, and youhave to rely and trust other
people, to help you out on thosethings.

Bryan (54:51):
For sure. During your time as the CAOC director, you
led operational air forcecontingency planning in response
to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.Can you tell us more about this?

Dan (55:03):
Absolutely. It was a very interesting time. And I think in
some respects, a lot of peoplearound the world are realizing
that this has been a tippingpoint for the geopolitical
landscape. Some people maybedon't, and and I think we saw
the same thing after 911. Iremember sitting there in Moose
Jaw, watching 911 unfold, and wedidn't fully understand how it

(55:25):
would impact our world.
Mhmm. And I think the the samecan be said about February of
2022 where where many people arejust now beginning to wake up
and realize what it really meansfor our world and how that's
gonna change our lives the next20, 30, maybe even 40 or longer
years. So it was a big event. Weinitially responded with you

(55:46):
know, the air force respondedby, establishing, the ATF in
Prestwick, which is now an airtask force in Prestwick moving,
loads and loads of lethal andnonlethal aid, into Poland to
support Ukraine. We did that notjust from Canada, but a bunch of
other places.
That was put together reallyquickly by 8 Wing and some of

(56:06):
our planners, and and reallyneed to see that come together.
We put the Auroras in theMediterranean tracking Russian
submarines, and we continued onwith all the other operations we
had to do around the world,including Defense North America
with NORAD. So the initialresponse was was robust from a
air force perspective andimmediate. I think that's where
we shined. You know, we're ableto react and support Canada's

(56:26):
goals, especially when we needto pivot and do something
quickly.
But then we also did a bunch ofplanning to determine, you know,
if we needed to increase thecommitment to Europe, what could
that look like? And if we needto increase the, the deterrence
level or the the, the level, theposture, the defensive posture
and deterrence posture we havefor North American air defense,

(56:49):
what that would look like. And II won't go into details because
some of it obviously would wouldstill remain classified. But
Yeah. For sure.
The the fundamental challengefor any military operation, and
sometimes it sounds like a bitof a cliche, but the fundamental
challenge is logistics andsupport. So a lot of our
platforms have,interdependencies when it comes
to the supports, and and thatbecomes the focus of a lot of

(57:11):
our our challenges as well as wego into major operations, is is
understanding thoseinterdependencies and how that
might limit what we're doing.And I think that was the biggest
part of that challenge wasunderstanding those
interdependencies and where wecould build decision space for
our commanders, and and thegovernment of Canada and, and
what that actually looked likein terms of effect that we could

(57:31):
offer to our allies andpartners. The flip side of that,
you know, the other great partof it, when when a major general
turns around and says, this ismy main planning effort, that
also makes life easier. A lot ofthe time in the air force,
you're trying to do alleverything, with reaching
operations and plan for thefuture, And then something will
come up like Atlantis floods inBC, floods in Newfoundland,

(57:52):
fires in in Northern Manitoba,you know, a a short notice
deployment.
They wanna go to to, DominicanRepublic to help, you know, with
trapped miners. That you know,you list it. Those things pop
up, but you still have to doeverything else. And so that's
the other challenge the AirForce, the operational that
faces all the time is, you know,we have a steady state, planning

(58:14):
capacity, and then you layer allthese extra things on top that
Canadians want us to do and needus to do. And, it it's fun.
It's it's never boring, but itit can definitely be a
challenge. Whereas the planningfor, you know, following the
invasion of Ukraine, we had thefull focus and attention of the
headquarters and the support ofthe commanders and the generals
at the time to get that done. Sowe had the resources and the and

(58:36):
the expertise we needed.

Bryan (58:37):
It's definitely easier when you're basically priority
number 1.

Dan (58:41):
Yeah. When you're the main effort, it's a good it's a good
place to be. Yeah. It's ahumbling place to be, and, you
can't afford to to get it wrong,but, being a Met effort Main
effort's a a great place to be.

Bryan (58:52):
I was gonna say, it sounds like also a very high
pressure situation because,like, obviously, this was a huge
global event. You gotta get yourplans. I was gonna say you gotta
get them right, but you need tomake sure you're considering all
the different contingencies thatcan that can come up as much as
possible.

Dan (59:08):
Yeah. And I suspect it was very high pressure for my
bosses. You know, they're theones who have to interface with
all these different commandersand commands, US, Canadian, and
other allies. You do have to getit right. But the way you do
that is you give the rightresources at the right time, and
you think about it ahead oftime, and you don't assume that
it's gonna take care of yourtake care of itself.

(59:29):
So you put the effort in earlyto do that planning, and you
make sure you get it right.

Bryan (59:35):
So we've talked a lot about your past experiences
leading up to being the wingcommander of Moose Jaw. If you
had to pick 1, which role do youthink most prepare you to take
on this leadership position andwhy?

Dan (59:45):
I think, the the second place would be the air warfare
center, you know, and give methat broadening exposure. And
then the first one would be thechaoc director more for, you
know, being my first job as acolonel, understanding, how I
could work at that level, andthen also building up my network
of of people that I need to haverelationships with across the
air force and and in other areasof of the defense enterprise.

(01:00:09):
That really helped.Understanding, you know, my role
now as the the wing commander isnot necessarily you know, I I do
have to leave from the front,but I'm also there to set
conditions and set the space forpeople and then coach and
mentor. And, it really cut myteeth to that, you know, working
as the cad director and thenlearning from both my peers at
the time who are more seniorthan me and then certainly my

(01:00:30):
bosses.
You know, I got to see them inaction and how how they
conducted, their business, andand those are great examples for
me.

Bryan (01:00:38):
Yeah. So kind of having that view of what's going on in
the background and what it takesto be a leader?

Dan (01:00:43):
At that level. Absolutely.

Bryan (01:00:45):
Okay, Dan. That's gonna wrap up part 1 of our discussion
on your career. Thanks so muchfor being here today, and I'm
really looking forward tochatting about your time as 15
Wing Commander, current andfuture plans for training our
pilots, as well as somequestions from the audience in
part 2. Thanks again for beinghere.

Dan (01:00:59):
Thank you so much, Brian. It was fun.

Bryan (01:01:01):
Alright. That wraps up our chat with Colonel Dan Coutts
about his career. Tune in on thenext one to hear all about his
time as 15 Wing Moose JawCommander, our current and
future plans for training pilotsas well as some questions from
the audience. Do you have anyquestions or comments about
anything you heard in thisepisode? Would you or someone
you know make a great guest ordo you have a great idea for a
show?

(01:01:21):
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(01:01:41):
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See you.