Episode 42: The Wing Commander: Commanding 15 Wing Moose Jaw and flying the CH-146 Griffon Part 2 - Dan Coutts

What is it like to be in charge of the one of Canada's largest pilot training bases? What does the future hold for pilot training in Canada, and what are we doing now to ensure our pilots are the best of the best? Colonel Dan Coutts is the current Wing Commander of 15 Wing Moose Jaw. In part 2 of our chat with him, we will discuss current and future plans for pilot flight training in Moose Jaw, we'll talk about why he continues to pursue flight even at the rank of Colonel, and we'll go into some questions from you, our listeners. Tune in today!

Episode Transcript

Bryan (00:29):
Alright. We're ready for departure here at the Pilot
Project Podcast, the best sourcefor stories and advice from the
pilots of the RCAF. I'm yourhost, Brian Morrison, and we're
sitting down today for part 2 ofour chat with the current wing
commander of 15 Wing Moose Jaw,colonel Dan Kootz. Dan, welcome
back to the show, and thanksagain for being here.

Dan (00:44):
Yeah. Thank you for having me,

Bryan (00:46):
Ryan. So we're gonna start by talking about Moose
Jaw. 15 wing Moose Jaw plays avital role in shaping the next
generation of RCAF pilots. Whatare your top priorities as wing
commander, and how do you ensurethe wing remains at the
forefront of pilot trainingexcellence?

Dan (01:00):
The priorities for the wing are 2. First is maximizing the
efficacy of force generation. Sothat's, both the efficiency of
what we do as a business and theeffectiveness, to give that word
efficacy. And and I, I hammerthat fairly often with my folks
and reinforce it. And the secondis to prepare for the future of
aircrew training.

(01:21):
So between those two priorities,you know, that does focus the
staff, the schools, Combinantsand their staff and the, and
everybody working on the line onwhat we need to do. That's also
led to a greater focus onmeasurement of what we're doing
and trying to understand thethings that are the main
constraints to what we do interms of capacity so that we can

(01:42):
maximize the capacity and stilldeliver super high quality
training. And, that's been anongoing effort throughout the
first year or so of my my tenureand, continue on to the end.
What that allows us to do islook further ahead and project
with more precision ourthroughput. And if we can do
that better, we can do a betterjob of loading up those courses

(02:04):
so we don't have people waitingbetween.
And And then ultimatelyinforming for the CAF what our
capacity is, when it comes tostrategic intake of pilots so
that we can shape that for thefuture. And then, you know, it's
not me making those calls, butwe can offer that data up to my
boss, the commander of 2Canadian Air Division, general
Alexander, who can then havethat consultation with the
commander of the Air Force andcommander of, of 1 CAT as well

(02:26):
about and the deputy commanderof the Air Force about what we
should be looking at for astrategic input take for pilots,
and how we're gonna manage thatsystem, especially as we go
through that sensitivetransition. That's the that's
the short version.

Bryan (02:39):
Okay. So a lot of data collection sounds like for
essentially making things asefficient as possible, trying to
gain those efficiencies. Can yougive me an example of some of
the data you guys arecollecting?

Dan (02:51):
Well, one of the areas we wanted to focus on in Moose Jaw
as the aircraft ages is the,availability rates of the
harvards, but we also wanted tochange how we scheduled. So the
current commandant of 2 CFFTF,FilterCOT, has, brought into
play a more open approach toscheduling where we set the

(03:12):
framework based on the capacitywe know we have. And then we
highlight to the instructorsthat, you know, the schedule
needs to be filled, but they canessentially bid is maybe not the
right word, but I don't have abetter one for it. They can they
can bid on on on where they'regoing to do their particular
remits, where they're gonna flytheir time, knowing that, you
know, ultimately it has to befilled. I think that is, you

(03:33):
know, more than anything, inMoose Jaw, especially for
2CFFTS, changed, the landscapeand made us a bit more
effective.
The instructors, I I I get thesense they have a greater sense
of agency over what we're doingand ownership. So it's not just
about, you know, measuring theperformance, and trying to hold
people to account with that.It's actually the inverse. We're

(03:55):
trying to I'm trying to measurethe performance to understand
better and then come up withways like those good ideas,
that, can come from, everybodywho's actually doing the
business about how we canimprove things. You know?
We can't identify that we have achallenge until you get to the
nitty gritty of it, see whatthat challenge precisely is.
Once you do, then you can have aconversation about it, and you
can trust the genius that's inthe crowd to come up with those

(04:18):
solutions. Because I'm certainlynot gonna be the smart person
that comes up with all thesolutions. I I just don't have
that. You know?
I I I I am not an expert onflight instruction in the
harbor, and I have experts thatthat are super experienced in
that that area. So if I come tothem with a problem and say,
look, we we recognize we have aparticular issue here or there,
and then we can actually tapinto that genius and their
creativity.

Bryan (04:39):
Right. And I think that almost goes back to what we were
talking about in the previousepisode about kind of knowing
who your people are and whattheir expertises are and kind of
using that to the fullest.

Dan (04:48):
Absolutely. And and the role of a wing commander, I see
it as setting those conditions,helping to, give, you know,
folks who are doing the businessthe resources, they need as much
as possible. Not always perfect.You get you know, give them
everything you wanna give them,but as as much as you can. And
then, coaching and mentoringwhere you where you need to, but
then also just getting out ofthe way and and letting them do

(05:10):
the business once you've set upthose parameters.
So that's why I focus so heavilyon that number one priority
saying it's maximizing theefficacy of our first
generation, and and making surepeople understand that. Because
because once they understandthat intent, then you step back
and let them work towards it.They're gonna find new and
innovative ways to get there.That scheduling is just one of
them, but there's been manyothers as well over the past

(05:32):
several years.

Bryan (05:33):
For sure. And I feel like we're almost getting into this.
So what would you say yourcurrent role is in shaping the
future of RCAF pilots?

Dan (05:40):
That would be the main one, just to set the conditions, and
then, you know, help to coachand mentor with, my immediate
subordinates. And then alsojust, you know, where where I
can get out of the way and justand help, that servant leader
mindset of, you know, invertingthe hierarchical pyramid. And I
I'm there to help solve theproblems that can't be solved by

(06:01):
my common ops, and they're thereto solve the problems that can't
be solved by their majors, andso on. That really helps, and
then you're encouraging peopleto come to you with their
problems that they can't solvelocally. And if I can't fix it,
I I go hire and shop it aroundto try and find the people who
actually can help us resolvethese particular issues, whether

(06:21):
it's, you know, trying toprocure winter flying boots so
that we can keep flying theaircraft, safely during the
wintertime, you know, whilewe're waiting for our longer
term project to kick in.
You know, these are the kinds ofthings that end up being, the
wing commander's purview to helpfind solutions for. And I view
that as the main focus for me isis trying to help my folks, with
the problems that they can'tsolve themselves at their level.

(06:44):
Then you still have to lead fromthe front. You still have to be
there and and talk to thestudents and and provide a bit
of an example of what seniorleadership in the Canadian Armed
Forces, needs to look like andthen have conversations with
them about that as well.

Bryan (06:57):
So, basically, it's a combination of kind of that
leading at a almost a tacticallevel, but also, like you said,
setting the conditions and thensolving the big problems so that
they can focus on meeting thoseconditions.

Dan (07:08):
Yes. And I have to be careful to get out of the way
because I've I've led at thetactical level. I've been a unit
commander, but, I have unitcommanders who are supposed to
be doing that as well. So Forsure. You know, that's another
thing that a a wing commanderhas to be careful not to do is
to get in their chili too much.

Bryan (07:23):
Yeah. I can imagine that that could be a bit of a
challenge. Just it's a fine lineto walk, I would think.

Dan (07:27):
Yes.

Bryan (07:29):
Did it feel serendipitous to be back at 15 Wing Moose Jaw
all those years later?

Dan (07:34):
It's been a really neat experience. The town has
changed. It's really improved,at least from my memories now.
My memories are colored also bythe stress of going through
pilot training. Yeah.
I I I'm enjoying living here.I'm enjoying the people. Yeah.
It's it's really great to beback. You know, this is one of
the, few jobs that I asked forand actually got, over my
career.

(07:54):
You know, there is and I have togive a lot of credit to my
mentors and and my leaders. Youknow, they made a plan for me
back in 2019, and, that pathwayhas actually, worked out, and
we've seen it come to fruition.And so, you know, none of us yet
to be in any of these positionswithout an entire army of people
supporting us. So there's alsothat that aspect that I'm I'm

(08:15):
very grateful for as well.

Bryan (08:17):
For sure. You mentioned that you asked for that
position. What made you want it?

Dan (08:20):
I was on a course with then Colonel O'Reilly. I can't
remember what year it was, butit was in the the mid teens,
probably 2017 or 2018, and hewas the wing commander. And he
was describing the job to me,and and it just just seemed like
a really cool job. You get toinfluence an entire generation
of of pilots who are comingthrough training, but then
you're also influencing anentire generation of instructors

(08:43):
who will go back, to a largeextent. A lot of them will go
back to their communities orother units across the Air Force
or other headquarters.
And, you know, you'll have had achance to interact with them and
and hopefully, help them at somepoint, with their jobs and their
challenges. And that's a that'sa pretty neat place to be. I
think that's the same for everywing commander, but especially

(09:03):
here. The ability to tap intothat ab initio pipeline and talk
to its students, that's a prettyneat experience. I love sitting
down when I go to Portage andtalk to the, the the students
there or when I'm here and I Igo into the mess and and say
hello to a few folks.
I love sitting down with thosebrand new soon to be pilots and
talking to them about theirexperiences and and just the

(09:24):
excitement they have about thiscareer and being in the Air
Force, in spite of the challengeand stress we put them under.
It's it's just so neat to to beexposed to that and refreshing
and reinvigorating to be able totalk to people who are just
starting out in their careerswhen I'm coming close to the end
of mine. That's, that's a greataspect of this this opportunity

(09:44):
to be able to lead here.

Bryan (09:46):
Yeah. I've always said I thought that one of the coolest
CEO jobs must be being, like,the school commandant or being
the wing commander. Like yousaid, there's just so much
energy and excitement at 2 and 3CFFTS. Everybody is just so
motivated to be there. They'reachieving their dreams.
It's just such a high energypositive space.

Dan (10:04):
And learning how to fly is a lot of fun. At the end of the
day, you know, being a pilot,I'm still learning how to fly
over and over again, when I gofly and,

Bryan (10:13):
for sure.

Dan (10:13):
Trying to be better. It never stops. But when you first
started out, yeah, it's it'sit's really neat.

Bryan (10:19):
And you have to remember that too. Right? Because it can
be very stressful. It can be,overwhelming. You wanna perform,
especially within the militaryflight training system.
Everyone wants to be the best.Everyone wants to to go out
there and crush it. Andsometimes you have to remind
yourself to look around, take abreath, and say, man, this is
really cool.

Dan (10:35):
I I do talk to each course as they come through phase 2 and
try to remind them of that. I Iask them, you know, when you
join, how many people actuallygot accepted to pilot the year
you came in? And then comparedto the population of Canada, 39
odd 1000000 people. And, youknow, you're in a pretty special
spot when you get accepted forpilot training in the Canadian
Armed Forces. You're gonna gettraining second to none, and

(10:56):
then you're gonna have theseexperiences and then, you know,
set up for a career where youyou're gonna have variety you
know, for sure, there's gonna beboring days, but then there's
also gonna be days where weirdthings happen that you never
expected, and you have to relyon your training to carry you
through.
And, that's, it's a really,invigorating career to have.

Bryan (11:15):
And not just that, but you're also flying an aircraft
that the average private pilotin Canada would give anything
just for a ride in. Like, thatwould make their year to go up
into Harvard.

Dan (11:26):
Absolutely.

Bryan (11:26):
And that's the platform that you're just conducting your
training in every day. I thinkthat's just so cool.

Dan (11:30):
It is really neat. We had the the opportunity to fly the
lieutenant governor ofSaskatchewan, several months
back. And, just to see the grinon his face, as he's coming out
of the aircraft, yeah, it's it'sspecial what we do, anywhere in
the air force, but especially inthe training the training
system. You know, it it isreally a privilege to be able to
do a lot of the things that weget to do.

Bryan (11:52):
Yeah. For sure. So in May 2024, a contract was awarded to
Skyline Canada LimitedPartnership for the future
aircrew training program orFACT. In broad strokes, can you
outline what will change inpilot training and how it will
improve how the RCAF trains itspilots?

Dan (12:07):
For sure. I think the biggest change or or what it'll
do to improve the training forthe RCF is really bring us into
the 21st century as we look atthose new training platforms and
marry into the streams thatallow us to fly all the advanced
aircraft we're getting. Youknow, the f 35, the Poseidon,
the multirole, aircraft, the,FutureVirt Glift, whatever

(12:29):
that's going to look like. Youknow, there's so many changes
coming to the Air Force, and weneed to be able to train on
platforms that are morerepresentative of those, you
know, capabilities that arecoming on really quickly. And I
think that's probably the thethe key element to FAAC.
We're not gonna train. We we canit'll have some capacity to
train a little bit more, butmore importantly, it'll be

(12:51):
training with aircraft that willset our students up for success,
whether they're going into amultirole, aircraft, multi
engine aircraft, fighters, goingto instruct later on in other
aircraft or flying helicopters.You know, it's gonna set them up
for success. The the change, itshould be a multiyear change.
I'm not sure exactly what IOC isgoing to be.

(13:13):
It'll depend on, how thecontractor, Skylon, brings on
the aircraft.

Bryan (13:17):
Could you explain what IOC is?

Dan (13:19):
The initial operating capability, when we actually
will start to use those aircraftin earnest for training. It's
supposed to be around the 2029,2020, 29 time frame. And, we
just have to wait to see howthat contract shakes out. We're
still in early days as theSkyline team comes together and
and starts to, you know, do theagreements for purchasing the
aircraft and figure out howwe're gonna put in the

(13:40):
simulators, design all thebuildings that need to come
along with this program tosupport those new capabilities.
So not sure exactly when that'sgonna come online, but it's it's
around that time frame.
In terms of what else changes,obviously, the aircraft change.
On the, the Moose Jaw side,we'll see at least the proposal
is, we'll see the Grobeturboprop come here. So the

(14:03):
Grobes in portage right now thatdo primary flight training will
be replaced by a turboprop, andthen it mixes up the phases and,
and streamlines things a littlebit. So you'll start with, basic
flight training on that and thenmove on to advanced flight
training on the PC 21. And theAir Force is still working with
the contractor to figure outexactly what those training
plans look like, but that's thebroad broad strokes concept.

(14:27):
Beyond that, folks will beselected off of the basic flight
training to go helicopters, offthe advanced flight training
partway through. You go acrossto either, the future King Air
or selected for instructing infighters, high performance
aircraft, if you will. And then,if you're going, again, multi
engine, you go back to PortageLa Prairie with 3 CFTS to fly

(14:48):
the multi engine aircraft there,the King Air. And for the
helicopter students, we'llcombine the 2 fleets. It'll no
longer be the 206 and the 146outlaw.
It will be just the h c 135helicopter that will be used for
the entire phase 3 program forfor rotary rotary wing training.

Bryan (15:06):
So do I understand that from what you just said now,
basic flight training is gonnabe located in Moose Jaw? It'll
just be the helicopters andmulti engine here in Portage?

Dan (15:16):
That that's the current plan. Yes. And then beyond that,
there's also the training thathappens in Winnipeg. So this is
the other big training, bigchange for, the contract. You
know, it's a big contract,$11,200,000,000, and they're
combining what is currently 2separate contracts here with
NFTC and in Portage with CFTS,the Canadian flight training

(15:38):
program out there, and as well,what's currently being delivered
by the military at 42 squadronin Winnipeg with the axle and
ASAP training.
That's all going to be part ofFACT. So it's a massive program
for the Air Force, a hugeinvestment by the government and
the Air Force for for training.And it's not just training,
pilots now. It's also gonnainvolve the training we do in

(15:58):
Winnipeg too.

Bryan (15:59):
That's right. That's why it's called the aircrew training
program, not the future pilottraining plan. Like, this is for
all aircrew.

Dan (16:07):
It is for all aircrew. Yes.

Bryan (16:09):
That'll be interesting. It'll be interesting to see what
kind of efficiencies we can, getfrom that as well from kind of
combining the efforts all intounder 1, house.

Dan (16:18):
Well and by working, you know, NFTC has been around
since, I think, we we firststarted using it in earnest
around 1999.

Bryan (16:26):
A couple acronyms coming your way. NFTC is NATO flying
training in Canada, and CFFTS isCanadian Forces Flying Training
School.

Dan (16:36):
There's been a lot of learning that's happened with
that contract over time, and Ithink across D and D, we've
learned how to do thosecontracts better. When we did
the, the CFTS contract, with ourpartner, Canc Aero, in 3 CFTS in
Southport, a Southport facilitynear Portage la Prairie. That
also has been a really goodlearning experience. And the
team that worked in Ottawa,across, you know, multiple d and

(17:00):
d to report departments in theAir Force, and and other
elements to CAF to put togetherthis contract, they They learned
from all those experiences, andpulled it all together. So it
sounds like, a very promisingcontract that's gonna have
flexibility built into it, and Ithink we're all very excited to
see it come to come to fruition.
It's not gonna be without hisheadaches. You know, there's
gonna be delays. Like, when thethe contractor's talking about

(17:23):
the the Gantt chart for this andthe number of lines and and sub
subprojects that they have toexecute, it's it's mind
boggling. Like, there is 1,000upon 1,000 of tasks that need to
be accomplished and accountedfor. So there's gonna be
challenges, but they put a goodteam in place to to make that
all happen.

Bryan (17:40):
Yeah. Of course. Any new plan, any new contract is gonna
involve some growing pains and,things to work through when it's
first implemented. Right? That'sjust that's just par for the
course.

Dan (17:49):
Absolutely. The one thing I really appreciate about what's
been designed into this is fromthe very beginning, we're
talking about, about ourpartners. You know, it's, it is
right now, you know, theCanadian Armed Forces D and D
with our our, public serviceemployees and the contractors.
That's how we make MTC and andCFTS happen. But in the future,

(18:09):
we're explicitly saying that aseven as they were signing this
contract, this is about having aa partner in Skyline, that will
be working close closely withthe Air Force and DND to to
deliver this effect forCanadians.

Bryan (18:22):
Do we know how the fleet replacement will occur yet?

Dan (18:25):
I don't know exactly how it will you know, the the theory, I
guess, is we will, hopefullyramp up the capability over
time. But Skyline is iscurrently still signing the
contracts. I'm not sure if theink's dry on some of them or or
if they're about to sign

Bryan (18:39):
Okay.

Dan (18:40):
Other procurement contracts. So that that will
depend on the delivery timelinefor the different manufacturers
that are out there for the theGrove and the Plattus and the AC
135 and the King Air, and thenthe simulators and then the
buildings. Yep. So that thatwill all tie together. So I I
can't really say exactly whatthat would look like, but
theoretically, you'd want to,have a nice hand off between,

(19:02):
the 2 or the 3 differentprograms, I guess, between
future crew training, NFTC andCFTS.
You wanna have a smoothtransition. So there's a lot of
staff working in Winnipeg rightnow to try and plan that out, in
addition to building all the newtraining plans that we're going
to need with these newplatforms, plan out how we're
going to do that transition, andthen working closely with the
team in Ottawa, to make surethat we can stick handle this so

(19:24):
that it is, as smooth aspossible. But, also, we want to
avoid capturing, students in themiddle of that transition. So we
wanna make sure we push as manypeople through as we can in the
interim, and and minimize thatbill in the middle so that
somebody is not languishing aswe're ramping down 1, standing
up to the next. And and, youknow, we wanna we wanna see

(19:46):
people get in training at thebeginning and get through in a
in a timely fashion and gettheir wings.
And so that's one thing they'reworking really hard on right now
to plan that out even though wedon't have all the information,
you know, we don't have perfectinformation about how it'll
work. They're really workinghard to to try and maximize, the
efficiency of that program. Sowhen we hand the students

(20:06):
through that program, thatnobody gets gets lost.

Bryan (20:09):
Okay. That makes sense. And my next question was gonna
be if there would be a cessationof training during this
transition, but it sounds likeyou guys are hoping to avoid
that.

Dan (20:17):
Yeah. Hoping to avoid that. I'm not like, again, until we
know all all the more detailsabout how this unfolds, hard to
say exactly how that's gonnawork.

Bryan (20:25):
For sure.

Dan (20:25):
But we're also building the structures right now, both here
at 15 Wing. And then with theproject writ large, they're
building the structures that'llhelp facilitate that in terms of
just having the right staff, theright people, the right places
to to make sure because we can'tplan it all out perfectly ahead
of time to constantly be incontact and discussions about
how we're gonna fix these littleproblems as they pop up.

Bryan (20:46):
Right on. So speaking of changes in pilot training,
listeners probably have seensome articles recently that we
retired our CT 155 Hawk trainerjet, which previously conducted
all jet training leading up tothe CF 18 Hornet. How are we
filling this need currently andwhat kind of solutions are on
the horizon for this capabilitygap?

Dan (21:04):
For sure. When I mentioned the benefits of fact, I talked
about the ability to train, in away that's gonna set our
students up for success on the,you know, 5th generation
aircraft, quite frankly. Doesn'tmatter if you're flying the PA
or the f 35. We're working onthat same environment, that's
fully interconnected and andmuch more complex, and data

(21:25):
enabled than what we've seen inthe past. So with that, the
Hawk, it it did over time, it'sa good platform for what it was,
but it wasn't able to help evenwith the you know, if you look
at the Hornet Extension Program,it doesn't necessarily give what
you need over time, as theHornet has evolved, you know,

(21:45):
what the students need to jumpstraight into Hornet.
So that, you know, initially,when you had it, they're they're
pretty close in in in intraining capability. But as
you've upgraded the Hornet overtime, just as an example, it the
the gap between what you learnon the Hawk and what you need to
have to fly, one of the mostadvanced 4th gen fighters that's
out there, has has grown. Sothat's one of the reasons. The

(22:07):
other one is, you know, the thelifespan out of it is getting,
you know, the avionics. We'rewe're not able to replicate what
you can do in a modern air amodern fighter aircraft, and
there's other challenges aswell.
So they've been retired fromflying, but we're still using
them. They're being, moved toboarding for safe state to allow
it to be used as a more moderntrainer for the technicians

(22:28):
because you still have thingslike, the mission computers, the
HUDs up displays, things thatdon't exist on the tutor,
training examples that they haveright now. These are advanced
systems and and airframestructures that now are are
better able, to train our ournew technicians as they enter
the forces. So while it'sretired from flying, we're still
using it in the RCF, goingforward, and it'll be a

(22:49):
significant part of ourtraining, I think, for our
technicians for many years tocome. I can't speak to future
fighter and, fighter lead andtrainer.
Sorry. There is a future fighterlead and trainer group in Ottawa
who are designing that solution.And so I I frankly don't know
what that will look like. I Iknow there's several options out
there, but that'll be anothermassive program, and that's,

(23:09):
that group who will have to,propose to command the Air Force
and Treasury Board and the m nthe MND what that looks like. In
the meantime, we're still usingthe Eurojoint training program,
down in Shepherd Air Force Basein the States where we have,
several instructors andstudents, training down there,
both, you know, primarily on thet 38 for the lead in training,

(23:30):
but also a few on the t 6 andand more on the t 6 going
forward.
We have people going throughtraining there. That'll be one
feeder, and then we're alsolooking at Italy. So with the, I
think it's called the the I fthe IFTF, the International
Flight Training, School inItaly. We will be well, we do
have one instructor there rightnow and I think another one

(23:51):
under training that we'll bestarting to send students there
as well. So that'll be the otherbridge flip element we use to to
get folks from something like at 6 to the Hornet, as we upgrade
the Hornet and use that for thetransition to the f 35.

Bryan (24:06):
Okay. So, essentially, we've got interim solutions, and
we're working on a permanentsolution.

Dan (24:11):
Absolutely.

Bryan (24:13):
So your educational background is impressive with
several master's degrees and adoctorate. How do you feel this
educational background helps youto lead young pilots in the
RCAF? And do you think furthereducation should be a priority
for pilots?

Dan (24:26):
I'll address the the latter half of the question first. I I
think it depends. You know, whenI first became a major, I asked
one of my mentors, you know, howthey organize their time, how
they they they are so effectiveat what they do. And he turned
me on to, the 7 Habits, byStephen Covey. And one thing
that really resonated with mewith the Stephen Covey framework

(24:47):
was the need to sharpen the saw,not always invest in yourself.
So education is one way of doingthat. I think there are multiple
ways of doing that. What'sincumbent upon us as
professionals, whether you're inthe military or in, you know, a
professional pilot in theaerospace industry at large, we
always need to be improving ourskills one way or another. Some
of that can be through othereducation because you build that

(25:07):
toolbox. And for me, that's whatit has been.
I have a fabulous toolbox that Ican rely on to help me with my
leadership, challenges. Butthere are other toolboxes out
there. There's other things youcan build. So it also has to be
something you're passionateabout. So I might I'd commend
anybody if you're interested ineducation to go that route.
But There's other things thatyou could be interested in that

(25:28):
can help you out equally as wellin becoming, you know, really
good in your profession,especially as a military
professional, as a pilot.There's other things you can
learn about that can really helpyou in those endeavors. And it's
really about, you know,sharpening the saw and building
out that toolbox, and and andthat applies to leadership, just
as much as learning how to flyand and, be an expert at what

(25:50):
you do. So when it comes to myrecommendation, do we need
higher education for all pilots?Again, I don't think we need to
make that any more than italready is.
There is benefit to, higherlevel education when it comes to
critical thinking, the abilityto resolve problems, and a
benefit as well when you havediverse programs and people

(26:11):
learn diverse things of havingthat diversity of mind. We get
to complex problems in the AirForce that we need to solve, and
we work best when we have peoplewith multiple perspectives. So
that's both lived experiences,and diversity of mind and the
things we've learned, during ourour careers and bringing those
together. That's where the thethe payoff really is. So

(26:31):
encourage people to go out andseek those things they're really
interested in and passionateabout, learn about those things,
become experts in, you know, notonly in what we do as war
fighters, but also in otherareas and bring that back to the
organization and, helpstrengthen the team with that
diversity.

Bryan (26:47):
That makes sense. And you're talking about bringing it
back. I imagine part of the theeducational the drive to gain
that education was something youhoped you'd be able to pass on
within the CAF?

Dan (26:56):
Yeah. I think when I first started out on my journey with
my first master's, it was a bitof that. You know, I learned
about things, and I immediatelysaw how I could apply them even
at the tactical level when I wasa captain to my units that I was
serving in at the time, and hadconversations with other people
about those different practices,you know, balance scorecard and
and, you know, different formsof financial management and

(27:17):
different ways of scoring andplanning. You know, those were
useful things. You know, it wasalso, you know, to set myself up
for for other things.
If I had wanted to take adifferent course in my life, I'm
not gonna, dismiss that as well.I think we all face those
choices. Ultimately, as I gotfurther along in my education
and especially with mydoctorate, you know, the the
doctorate for me really was, apassionate focus on something I

(27:41):
was interested in, butprofessionally relevant to me to
understand how to help people dochange better in the workplace,
and especially in the militarysettings and the, you know, the
defense settings that we have,understanding how to do that
better as well. So, you know,for me, it was when I got to the
highest end of my education. Itit definitely intersected with
my my military career and andtrying to do a better job as a

(28:04):
leader, you know, and and buildup my toolset because I didn't
feel I had that toolset, toreally dig into culture change
and help people do that.
So I needed to to study thatmore and ultimately build some
more, tools that I could use.

Bryan (28:20):
Speaking of culture change, your doctorate, as we
mentioned, is in workplaceculture change. A lot of people
get their hackles up when theyhear the words culture change.
In your opinion, why is itsomething the RCIF needs to
embrace?

Dan (28:32):
I think everybody needs to embrace it because we're
constantly evolving. So if I canoffer 3 ways to look at culture,
and the one that probably getspeople's hackles up the most is
when you think about culture assort of that iceberg image of,
you know, it's my psychology andand my personality. And if I say
your culture needs to change,the implication is you need to
change because you'reinsufficient or or not good. And

(28:54):
I think that's why people gettheir hackles up. I think we can
get around that with gooddialogue about, you know, our
need to always improve thecontext of our working
environments and ourgeopolitical context changes.
So we need to change with it andadapt, and culture is part of
that alongside things likestructure, policy, and process,
education, and training. Cultureis one of those pillars you need

(29:16):
to focus on if you're actuallygonna have successful change. So
I think we can address thatparticular, resistance you
sometimes see. But the culturecan also be about how we
communicate. There's a lot of,you know, from an academic
perspective, a lot of studiesout there and research that
highlights culture is also inhow we communicate.
So that's a different lens. Thenthe 3rd lens I'd offer, culture
is something performative.Culture is what we do. So with

(29:38):
those 3 different viewpoints onculture, you know, we need to
actually change sometimes ourour schemas and our psychology
or how we think about the worldto a certain extent, or even
just expose ourselves, forexample, to other people's lived
experience. But then we alsohave to change how we
communicate to a certain extentSo we're using language that's
up to date with what we want tosee in our workplaces and what

(29:59):
we want professionalism to looklike.
And then ultimately, what we do.You know, there's a performative
aspect. Culture is all thosethings, both, seen and unseen,
and then the artifacts we havesurrounding what we think and
feel, what we communicate, andwhat we do. There's those
artifacts we visibly have outthere that represent those
things and enact those things inthe workplace. So that's where I

(30:21):
think people get their hacklesup, and I think it's imperative
as professionals that we embracechange.
And culture is just one of thoseaspects of change. So we you
know, if you're a professionaland you're going to senior
positions in any industry, Ithink you're gonna have to be an
expert, not just not maybe notan expert. You have to be a good
solid practitioner when it comesto understanding some of the
things about culture change. Andthen you're gonna have to

(30:42):
understand things aboutstructural change, how to
implement education andtraining, how to change policy
and process because you can't doa good change without, doing a
good job in each one of thosefour pillars.

Bryan (30:53):
Okay. I think sometimes you hear people talking about
how all this focus on culturechange is making the military
soft. What would you say tothat?

Dan (31:02):
I think it's a change. I don't think it's making the
military soft. We still havethat warrior mindset and war
fighting focus. When we look at,building cohesion as an example,
there is certainly the abilityto build cohesion rapidly
through strict uniformity andcompliance to a certain image.

(31:22):
And and that's been used inmilitaries for centuries, and
and there's no denying that.
It is one way. But then you lookto conflict and some of the
academic research on frontlineunits, we can also have cohesion
and success through a focus onmission accomplishment and that
ruthless pursuit of excellenceat mission accomplishment. And
you don't need to have the samekind of haircut to do that. You

(31:45):
don't need to be clean shaven todo that. You know, when you look
at the, the elite units indifferent wars, quite often when
they got to those the frontlines of those conflicts, some
of that, block discipline, waswas let to go by the wayside
because the focus became onmission accomplishment.
That was the paramount thing.And I and I think if we embrace

(32:09):
war fighting as a focus on thatexcellence and on pursuit of
mission accomplishment, I thinkyou can still build that
cohesion. You can still buildthat discipline that's required
because the discipline is notabout tucking in my boots the
right way or my shirt. Thediscipline is about getting that
mission done, being aprofessional, learning how to do
it right, and adapting, even inthe face of of, of potential

(32:31):
failure and and, the challengesthat come along with any
operation, adapting andovercoming and always finding a
way. You know, that's where thatthat mission focus needs to be.
So, that would be my pushback topeople who say we weaken the
force just because we allowpeople to dye their hair and and
maybe, have different groomingstandards. No. I I don't think
that mission focus has goneaway. If anything, with the

(32:54):
current strategic environment,people are focusing more, and
they're they're you know, theyounger generations of people
joining the air force today,they're committed just as
committed as every othergeneration ever has done.

Bryan (33:04):
I'll buy that. I think as long as basically somebody is
there to do the business, to getthe job done, and accomplish the
mission, that's really whatmatters.

Dan (33:12):
Absolutely. And we have a professional force that's
capable of doing it properlytrained and equipped to execute.

Bryan (33:19):
So you've mentioned maintaining your own flying
skills with a requalification onthe Bell 412 Outlaw and even
purchasing a Piper PA 22 TriPacer. How does staying actively
involved in flying improve yourability to lead and connect with
the trainees at 15 Wing?

Dan (33:33):
So flying the helicopter, it allows me to go out and
actually especially at Portagebecause, you know, the 3 CFTS
unit is is in a location that'sabout 5 hours away from us.
Right? So 5 and a half hours isa bit of distance. It forces me
to get out there and fly withthem and meet with the
commandant and the team, thenfly with the instructors. But I

(33:53):
also get to sit down with thestudents, you know, have have
meals with them, see what theirexperience going through pilot
training, the different phasesis like, and and and have that
opportunity to understand whatwhat it's like for them going
through it, which informs, youknow, what I talk about with you
in the common ops, but alsogives me an appreciation for
what they're going through.
Because sometimes we forget.Right? Like it you know, for me
learning how to fly was a longtime ago. And, now now it

(34:15):
doesn't seem as dramatic, but atthe time it was. It was hard.
And the other thing it does forme as I look at flying, it
reminds me that it actually is aton of work. And sometimes
that's easy to lose sight ofonce you get out of the cockpit
for several years. You forgetthat it does take a ton of work.
It's still stressful.

Bryan (34:32):
For sure.

Dan (34:32):
It takes a ton of discipline to do it well. And
and I don't care what whatplatform you're flying. That is
the same for all of them. And sofor me, that's also been the
really informative aspect ofkeeping the category up. I am by
no means, super proficient.
You know, I barely am able tomaintain currency at times, but
it gives me an appreciation forthe work that our folks are

(34:53):
doing. And and I'm not eveninstructing. I'm just trying to
fly the helicopter, and then youadd the layer of trying to be a
really good instructor on top ofthat, and and deliver that
professional effect for the airforce, and train students so
that they can go out there, whenwhen the balloon goes up and and
and do, you know, pretty intensethings for our country. Like,
that's and it takes a lot ofwork. It takes a lot of talent

(35:15):
to do that well, and and ithelps me not lose sight of that.

Bryan (35:19):
You've mentioned, there that flying is a lot of work.
It's a lot of pressure. It's alot of work. And like you said,
you're in a totally differentmind space when you're a
student. Like, I look back andthink about, like, how did I
feel about flying back then?
I felt like flying was the endall be all more important than
life and death almost. Likelike, failing just felt like it
could it would be the worstthing that could possibly happen

(35:41):
to you. It's just so importantwhen you're in that world.

Dan (35:44):
One thing I I I'm probably one of the few people who will
say it to the news phase twos,but I also remind them that, you
know, this is a great way tobecome a great pilot, but to
become a good human being,that's that's on them. You know,
this isn't about that. We'regonna train them to great you
know, in the air force, we'regonna train to be great pilots
first in the pilot trainingsystem, great officers beyond
that. And then beyond that, youknow, they still have, you know,

(36:06):
there's different pathways tobecome a great human being. Not
all of them lie in the air inthe in the air force.
Right?

intro (36:10):
Yeah.

Bryan (36:11):
Of course.

Dan (36:11):
I know certainly any of your listeners who are are
working in the civilian industryflying. There's a lot of great
professionals out there. And wehave that history going back
over a 100 years in Canada, youknow, where the air force was
seen initially as the flyingbush pilots, in uniform. Like,
you know, we have that proudhistory in Canada that is also
super cool to be a part of,whether you're in uniform or
not. Like, we have a reallystrong history of, aerospace

(36:35):
developments and and flying inCanada, and, and this can be
part of our country just becauseof how we're built and where we
are going forward.
And that's something thatanybody who's in the aviation
industry, it doesn't matter ifyou're working in a tower or or
you're a mechanic, working on ahelicopter somewhere in the bush
or working at Air Canada in ahangar in, in Winnipeg or
Vancouver. Like, it's, it it'sit's you're you're part of that

(36:56):
that wider family, and that'sthat's a pretty neat place to
be.

Bryan (36:59):
Yeah. I agree. 100%. What do you feel is the biggest
upcoming challenge the RCAF willface in training its pilots?

Dan (37:06):
I think the transition to fact. I mean, that's why I have
it for the Ab Initio pilottraining system as, the number 2
priority, and that's why I'mputting resources to it right
now, to support everything thatmy my boss and his headquarters
is doing for that transition, tomake sure that we're giving them
the information and looking asfar ahead down the road of that
road of that implementation, toaddress concerns and build

(37:30):
decision space early. So I Ithink it will be that, for the
Abenishua flight trainingsystem. For the wider air force,
you know, that's that's thecommander of the air force's
space to speak to. But,certainly, you know, this is one
of the biggest investments thatCanada has made in its military
since World War 2.
That is a huge challenge. Itdoesn't matter what organization
you're in, and that's a whole ofD and D and CAF challenge.

(37:51):
Right? There's gonna be a lot ofchanges that need to happen, and
and you see it coming out of ourour new chief of defense staff.
You know, her desire to grow theforce and do it rapidly and get
to us where where we need to beby 2029.
You know, that's gonna take alot of hard work from everybody.
Yep. And, there's gonna be a alot, of pressure on our our
leaders to to get that right.And, you know, it's, it's gonna

(38:16):
be a very interesting time. Forour new pilots who are joining
the air force, who wanna jointhe air force, it is also going
to be, you know, a hard road,but an amazing time.
We actually like for me, goingthrough that change in 427 when
we switched over to be part ofCAN SOFCOM, you know, it is it
is a pretty amazing place to bein when you get to be part of
writing on a blank page andcreating something new. And if

(38:36):
you're joining the Air Forcenow, you're gonna be a part of
that, you know, building thisthis new Air Force and what
that's gonna look like for therest of the 21st century. So
it's a great time to be startingin in in your career in the Air
Force. I'm I'm pretty obviousactually of of the people who
are joining today.

Bryan (38:51):
Honestly, I feel the same way. It's an old cliche. Right?
It's an exciting time to be inthe Air Force, but it is a super
exciting time to be in the AirForce right now. And especially
as people who are just joiningbecause they're gonna be in
their career long enough to seeall this stuff come to fruition,
and they're gonna see this airforce become, like, super modern
and agile.
And I think that's gonna bereally, really cool to see.

Dan (39:11):
It is. Not not with those challenges for sure, but it's,
you know, that that's where wecut our teeth is in over
overcoming those challenges anddelivering delivering the facts
we need to deliver.

Bryan (39:20):
For sure. As wing commander, what lasting impact
you hope to achieve at 15 WingMoose Jaw, and what legacy would
you like to leave for futuregenerations of aviators?

Dan (39:31):
I don't think about my legacy too much. I wanna leave
it a little I'll leave it alittle bit better than I found
it. I think I think we're on thepathway to do that. You know,
for wing commanders, much ofwhat we do, I I think it'd be
the same for any wing commanderif you're to interview any of
them. Same thing as formationcommanders, across the CAF.
What we're doing usually affectsthings, you know, that that last

(39:52):
beyond our tenure. And whatwe're doing when we're coming
into command is picking upsomebody else's, plan and and
helping to bring that tofruition. So it's a shared
responsibility over time. Sothat can be, you know, a a bit
of a challenge because we wannasee successes in our time. At
the same time, it's also nice tothink that you're part of
something bigger over time.
Like, this is a whole of airforce effort, and and you look

(40:13):
at the scope of the future ofair crew training. Like, you
realize it is a whole of air airforce and CAF and D and D
effort. Like, it is you can'tsay it's just one person
championing that. And and to bepart of that thing, to be in
service to something bigger thanyourself, you know, I think
that's that's the the coolestpart of the service, especially
later on in your career in themilitary. I I would hope leaving

(40:35):
here that we've also, you know,adjusted the climate to a
certain extent, especially whenwe're looking at servant
leadership and that thatapproach of trying to empower
people to lead change, whatchange they can locally, and,
give them some some resourcesand freedom to do that.
I I think that makes everybody'slife better, and we get a better

(40:56):
set of solutions at the end ofthe day. It could be hard, you
know, to to step back and andand, let things, take a natural
course sometimes. But if yougive people the the right
mission statement and the rightintent, you know, a lot of the
time, they're not gonna let youdown. Mhmm. And so you just have
to get out of the way and andlet them do it.
So I'm hoping that we'll see abit more of a shift in that

(41:17):
direction as well. I mean,that's been building again,
that's not starting with me.That's been building over time
over success of Ring Chemours.Just something that I'm
continuing. And, I'm hoping thatwe'll leave that a bit better by
the the time I leave too.

Bryan (41:29):
Mhmm. I think, like you said, part of a huge part of
leadership is trust. Right? It'sit's trusting and and getting
out of the way and lettingletting your people do what they
need to do. You've saidsomething a couple times now
that I really like.
It's the concept of servantleadership. Can you explain that
a little bit?

Dan (41:43):
I guess the simplest version and, again, I'm probably
misusing the term in thestrictest academic sense, but if
you take the hierarchy and youinvert it, so my job is not here
to tell people what to do anddirect them. My job is to
support them. For my commandantsspecifically and the staff who
work directly for me, my job isto support them. And when they

(42:04):
come to something that theycan't solve themselves with the
resources or competencies orcapabilities they have, then,
you know, I'm supposed to takethat on and take that to a
different level and shop aroundand find the solutions for that.
And I go to my boss with thesame things when there are
things that I cannot solve.
You know, my expectation of myhigher headquarters, at multiple
levels is, you know, I'mbringing that to you as

(42:26):
something, you know, as a teamsport. This is what we need need
to resolve to be better atdelivering, in this case, the
efficacy of of training, youknow, the the generation of air
power at the end of the day.And, that's important to all of
us. So, you know, please help mewith this problem. You know,
that's that's the Stewartleadership, mentality.
As well as it goes to the core,values of the CAF. You know, one

(42:46):
of our values is stewardship,and we need to be good stewards
of the institution and of the,the the units, the formations,
that we're entrusted with. Andand part of that is also
coaching, mentoring, trying tohelp, our subordinates, as they
grow in their roles and theirranks. And I'm not gonna claim

(43:07):
to be perfect at that, but,making a good effort at it. So
for me, that's what servantleadership means is is, you
know, inverting that thatpyramid and being there to
support our folks and try to youknow, very rarely do I have to
direct things.
More often than not, we'rehaving conversations. I'm trying
to gently guide, coach, mentor,and, and, you know, help solve
problems that can't be solved,at lower levels.

Bryan (43:29):
Right on. I like that. So we're gonna move on to some
questions from listeners.

Dan (43:34):
Okay.

Bryan (43:34):
The first question we have is, has the training
backlog improved? And if so, isit sufficient to allow VOT,
which is voluntary occupationaltransfer or commissioning plans
into pilot again?

Dan (43:45):
So the the VOT is always I believe has always been there. I
don't think we've closed that.The numbers have decreased in
recent years, but that's stillopen. And other commissioning
plans, we always have ROTP andDO, and I don't see that
changing. I I don't get to no.
I get to participate in some ofthe conversations about what's
gonna look like, but ultimately,that goes to my boss and and and

(44:06):
then beyond that, the commanderof the air force to decide in
consultation with the chief ofmilitary personnel what the
strategic intake plan lookslike. What we really want to do
is we wanna keep the doors open.At the same time, as we have
that transition to fact, wedon't want anybody or we want as
few people as possible to bestuck in the middle. And what
I'd hate to see is for people tobe languishing, you know, in

(44:28):
training or in the beginning oftheir training. So we we have
made a concerted effort toshrink those timelines.
And when I talked earlier aboutmeasurement and having more
precision in our predictions,that's largely a part of what
that's about is trying to alsominimize those those wait times
between, which we all we wouldtarget to get as low as even 3
months. I think right now, we'reprobably on average sitting

(44:48):
somewhere between 6 9 months,sometimes shorter, sometimes,
longer. But, ultimately, youknow, my boss would like to see
us get down to 3 months. So, youknow, I I can't speak
specifically to year over yearwhat the intake will look like.
It will vary, depending on thattransition to future of aircrew
training.
And it it'll vary because wedon't want to, you know, hire

(45:09):
somebody on and then just havethem sit there and wait. That
said, you know, the air force istaking a lot of of of strides in
changing, or addressing howwe're going to position people
during the training and makingsure that it's value added. So
there's there's efforts on goingup, again, higher headquarters,
not necessarily my partnership,but I know there's work out
there to make sure that if thereis spent time, waiting, we wanna

(45:31):
make it as relevant as possible.

Bryan (45:33):
Okay. So, basically, we're working on minimizing it,
but at the same time, alsotrying to make sure there's
maximum value of that time whileyou're waiting.

Dan (45:40):
Absolutely.

Bryan (45:41):
So this is a question we've answered before, but I get
asked it so often that I'm gonnaask you again. Okay. If someone
is in their early thirties, doyou think it's too late to try
to be an RCAF pilot?

Dan (45:52):
Absolutely not. As the pilot occupational adviser, I
get to see some of the filesthat come in and the, the
exemptions that are are areasked for different things. You
know? Somebody else does thework in the the, the PLARs and
and looking at skills levels tosee if they could bypass phases
and things.

Bryan (46:09):
A PLAR is prior learning assessment and recognition.

Dan (46:13):
We've seen, you know, people much older than 30 apply,
and, they still make greatpilots. The age for flying, you
know, in in the airline industryas well is going up. We can
employ people for a lot longer.People are staying healthier for
longer. As long as you'recommitted and and want to serve,
I think we should be consideringthat for sure.
So 30 is definitely not too old.

Bryan (46:32):
Yep. Totally agree. And honestly, they said early
thirties. I think that standsfor late thirties. You can start
in this career a lot later thanyou might think.

Dan (46:41):
Absolutely.

Bryan (46:42):
I have a few questions from a student who is starting
phase 2 this December, and, theymentioned they're super excited
about that.

Dan (46:48):
Great.

Bryan (46:50):
The first question and first, this might require a
little explanation betweenattached posting and posting. So
recently, the posting to phase 2was changed to an attached
posting. Can you, in broadstrokes, explain what that means
and explain why it happened?

Dan (47:03):
Sure. A a posting is, a formal movement from one unit to
another that involve a transferof command and control authority
over that person in a militarysense, so that there is a full
command over that that person intheir career. So full, I guess,
if you will, ownership. Attachedposting is more like a loan. You

(47:25):
know, somebody goes, in asimilar sense for a longer
period of time to anotherlocation, but they're not
entitled to the same benefits,and, like the full move.
And they don't necessarily havethe the receiving unit doesn't
have the full necessarily, thefull control over that
individual or where they'regoing, you know, next as an

(47:47):
example. So attached postingsare also usually applied when
you're going to be somewhere fora shorter period of time, less
than a year. I'm not sureexactly what the figure is in
the, the, DAODs, but it's for ashorter period of time. A
posting generally lasts yearswhen you're in a location. So as
we tighten up, and, again, Idon't think this change has

(48:09):
actually happened yet.
I think it's actually stillbeing considered, so it's not
formalized or finalized. So Idon't know exactly what the
final solution is gonna look atand whether there'd be a hybrid
or everybody would be attachedpostured or not. So, I I guess I
have to offer that caveat aswell. I I don't think it's
actually a done deal yet, but Iknow the intention behind it.
And, again, this rests more withmy higher headquarters, but it

(48:30):
affects us and Moose Jaw.
As we've tightened up thosetimelines, you know, and we're
trying to get people through, II'd like to see people graduate
with their wings, no later thansort of 3 years after their
commissioning if if I could havemy brothers. Mhmm. If we tied up
that timeline, you won't beactually in one location that
long to to merit a full posting.And then as well as you're

(48:50):
waiting between phases phases,we should be helping you wait on
an RCF wing in a place whereyou're gonna see benefit, where
you could be exposed to your onthe job job training to a
future, capability or platform,whether or not you end up there
out of your pilot training. Atleast you've been exposed to
operations in the Air Forcesomewhere else.
You know, sitting in Moose Jawbetween phases isn't necessarily

(49:14):
gonna give you that sameexposure. So I think there's
those those two aspects to it,making it shorter. And I think
at the end of the day, it'sprobably gonna be a better
experience for pilots whenthey're, between phases for
training.

Bryan (49:24):
Okay. How does training for phase 2 differ from the Euro
NATO joint jet pilot trainingprogram or NGEP in Texas?

Dan (49:33):
I I haven't actually been down to Njet myself, and, and I
haven't flown it myself. So I'mnot entirely sure their training
plan, what it looks like incomparison to ours in detail.
But, generically, for the mostpart, we're getting the same
competencies and skills out ofit. They're I'm given to
understand that some of theirscoring is slightly different
from ours. How they actuallytrack their averages and score

(49:55):
their pilots overall on theircourses, the metrics they use is
slightly different butcomplementary to what we do.
So I'm not convinced there'sactually a substantial
difference between. Certainly,procedurally, there'll be some
changes. You're flying inAmerican airspace. There's gonna
be, differences there.

Bryan (50:10):
For sure.

Dan (50:10):
But, you know, you even you think about instrument flying,
you know, we're all beholden tothe ICAO standards.

Bryan (50:16):
For the listeners, ICAO is the International Civil
Aviation Organization.

Dan (50:20):
And nations could do something slightly differently,
but fundamentally, the the, youknow, instrument flying is is
very similar around, any nationthat conforms to ICAO standards.
So I don't think there'sactually that much of a
difference. I think they producea very high quality product, and
we're lucky to be a part of thatprogram. We've been part of that
program as well, I think, sincethe I'd have to go check my

(50:41):
notes, but I think it's sincethe 19 eighties. Like, we've
been there for a while.

Bryan (50:44):
Oh, wow.

Dan (50:44):
Yeah. One way or another.

Bryan (50:46):
I didn't realize that. I thought that was fairly new
within the last 10, 15 years, Sothat's pretty cool.

Dan (50:51):
No. It's it's been longer than that for sure.

Bryan (50:53):
Their final question for you was what is the best
restaurant, cafe, pub in town?

Dan (51:00):
So I couldn't pick 1.

Bryan (51:02):
How how about a couple of favorites?

Dan (51:03):
Yeah. If you if you well, that's the thing that's
impressed me about Moose Jaw asI moved back here. When I was
going through training and itmight have been also because as
a poor student at the time with,you know, small family and a
young family and, you know,making what a second lieutenant
makes, Probably didn't get outin town to the restaurants all
that much. But, you know, theyhave there's multiple

(51:24):
restaurants. If you like Chinesefood, there's there.
There's, Irish pubs. There's,you know, there's Thai food.
There's a couple different sushiplaces. You know, so my my
spouse and I are going around toall these different places, and,
you know, it's worth exploring.So I'm not gonna say that I have
a particular favorite, but therethere's lots of good restaurants
around town.

(51:45):
And I'm looking forward to goingto Roba's. I've never been
there. I heard it's good, so I'mgonna try that next. I wanna go
back to to the the Irish pub intown, downtown, and, you know,
but they're all good.

Bryan (51:58):
Is that, Bobby's?

Dan (51:59):
I think it was Bobby's. Yeah.

Bryan (52:01):
Yeah. I remember they did trivia.

Dan (52:03):
I I wanna try that again. And, yeah, it depends on what
you like. You know? I thinkthere's a place down at the
corner of, the bottom end ofMain Street that does trivia,
once a week. There's a pub therethat does that.
Then there's, you know, MaryBrown's, which is more, you
know, you know, like every otherMary Brown's that you'd find
across the country. So there'sthere's some statement

Bryan (52:22):
Mary wait. Mary Brown's or Brown's Social House?

Dan (52:24):
Sorry. Brown's Brown's Social House. My apologies.
Barry Brown's is a chickenplace, isn't it? I don't think
we have one of those.
But, you know, there's there'smultiple pizza places in town
too. There's local pizza placesand there's chains, so there's a
variety there. It's, you know,if I could say one thing for the
folks who are coming to MooseJaw, whether you're coming as a
student or as an instructor, I Ithink it's a better place to be.

(52:46):
It always was a good place tobe, but it's it's it's a good
place to be now. It's a smalltown, easy to live.
If you're living here as aninstructor, or staff, You know,
your family can afford to buy ahouse and have kids and
activities, and you'll have thetime. So you only have to drive
across town. You can get acrossin in 10 minutes from a a karate
lesson to a hockey game or or a,you know, another music lesson

(53:09):
or something across town foryour kids. So it's a great place
to be, and you're not too farfrom Regina. It can be a bit of
a challenge to travel air wiseout of Regina, but you can make
it happen.
So it's it's it's a good placeto live. It's, you know, to
start out a career, nobodyshould be turning their nose up
at it. That's for sure.

Bryan (53:24):
Sounds like it's come a long way. Like, I agree with
you. It was a it was a fineplace when I was there as a
student, but I my focuses werenot really on exploring the
area. But it sounds like,especially in terms of, like,
restaurants and services andstuff, it's really blown up.

Dan (53:38):
I think, well, blown up might be overstating it. But,
you know, I I remember walkingdowntown as a student and seeing
a lot more empty storefronts,and I don't see the same thing
anymore. There's there's the thetown the city has made a lot of
gains and has put a lot ofeffort into revitalizing their
downtown core and and making ita good place to live and work

(53:58):
for families, and, and it shows.It's it's really, we've really
done a good job, in the lastcouple of decades.

Bryan (54:06):
That's great to hear. Our next question was about skipping
phase 1. So some people havebeen able to skip phase 1 and
move straight to phase 2. Haveyou seen these students struggle
at all as a result of this? Andif so, what areas of phase 2
present a particular challenge?

Dan (54:21):
So there's 2 different contexts. 1 would be people who
have previous experience, andthen you do what's called the
PLARIS or a previous learningassessment. And, if the staff at
2 Canadian Air Divisiondetermine that you've met what
we have in our training plansand qualification standards for
that given course, thensometimes we can advance people
beyond that. And in that case, II don't think people would

(54:42):
struggle too much. We have runonly one trial where we went
direct to phase 2.
I I'm not aware of any other,cases where you've gone direct
to phase 2. And that trial isstill ongoing. The the folks are
still on course, so I wouldn'tcomment on the results of that
yet. That's fair. You can expectthat there would be things that
people would, find challengingfor sure because you've never

(55:02):
flown an aircraft before.
You never talked on a radio.You've never taxied an aircraft.
So there's gonna be a reallysteep learning curve if you do
that. But it also highlights forus, I think at the end of the
day, we're gonna learn what wetruly get of value out of that
phase 1 program, and it's gonnahelp inform what we do going
forward for, future vehicletraining as well. So I I think

(55:22):
it's been a worthwhile effort.
But for those folks, yeah,certainly, they're gonna be,
they they have been and will beworking hard, as they come into
phase 2. But, what I get them tounderstand, for the most part,
they're succeeding, and, nodifferent in the the rates
compared to any other course.But we'll we'll wait to see how
that trial finally finalizes andand what we can learn from it.

Bryan (55:44):
For sure. I can speak a little bit to skipping phase 1
since I did that Okay. Coming inwith a commercial multi IFR
license. I and just personally,I found the biggest struggle
was, aerobatics. Okay.
I found I was ahead in IF. Ifound aerobatics were something
that everyone else had done andI hadn't. So I found that
challenging. You catch up withina flight or 2. But at first, I

(56:04):
was kinda frustrated because Iwas like, what you know,
everything else was comingfairly easy, and then I got hit
with this thing I'd never done.
So it was a bit humbling. But,overall, it's a challenge, but
you get through it.

Dan (56:14):
Yeah. It's it's interesting to point that out and highlights
that at each one of thosephases. You know, there are some
core competencies that thatgets, drilled into us, that
that, you know, we carry forwardwith us once we get our wings.

Bryan (56:27):
For sure. So our next question is technology is
constantly evolving, and theUnited States Air Force is
beginning to use virtual realityto train their pilots. Will
Canada follow in theirfootsteps? And if so, when?

Dan (56:38):
So I think it's important to know we have been using
simulation for a long time.Like, even when you had the
tutor, it just wasn't advancedas what we have now. We have
foam full motion simulators asan example in Portage for the
King Air and, you know, othertask trainers for the, the 206
and the and the Grove. We'vebeen using virtual reality in
the form of simulation for along time. For the future of it,

(57:01):
I think we've trialed a fewthings in Portage, over the past
couple of years.
There's, virtual realitygoggles. They're doing 3 60
videos for initial maneuvers,like the first time that you see
an auto rotation or a circuit ora landing in the, in the King
Air. Having that level 5demonstration, from a highly

(57:23):
skilled instructor in the VRgoggles that standardized for
everybody to see, I thinkthere's a lot of benefit to
that. Beyond that, if you wantto have practice in VR, whether
that's mixed reality or fullvirtual reality, you really need
to have and this is what we'relearning. You really need to
have good models of thataircraft so that everything

(57:45):
you're doing is, representingwhat the real aircraft would do.
So as you become more advancedin maneuvers, you need that
constant feedback from the modelthat's presented that replicates
what the aircraft is going todo. Otherwise, you won't
necessarily be you're almost asgood just going and chair flying
it and using your imagination toremember how that aircraft

(58:06):
actually reacts to what you'redoing. So I think that's one
thing we have to be carefulabout, when we're looking at the
future of VR. If we want to useit for more, higher end, complex
maneuvers, you're going to haveto have really good models to
make that work. You know, maybesomeday somebody can introduce

(58:29):
AI into that.
I know Yousef is looking at someeye tracking. We've done some of
that as well. CAE has done thatwith DRDC and one of the
experiments they've looked at.There may be some use for that,
but I think you're stillprobably several years or I
suspect you're probably stillseveral years away before we
have algorithms that canrecognize what good looks like,

(58:49):
and then provide that coachingfeedback to a student, the same
way that we now do with aninstructor sitting beside you or
sitting behind you in in thesame aircraft who can see what
you're doing and and diagnoseand give you feedback on the
high end things that we do. So,yeah, I think there's a future
for VR.
It's it's not gonna be asinstantaneous as maybe some
people, the hype might mightlead to, but, you know, it it's

(59:12):
gonna take an investment. If youwanna use it properly beyond
those more simple examples Iprovided, it'll take investment
to make sure those models areare really high fidelity so that
you get that feedback you needas a pilot to improve.

Bryan (59:24):
So probably it has its place, but it has its
limitations as well.

Dan (59:27):
Clearly has its limitations. Yeah. Yeah. I think
it will continue to evolve andand improve for sure.

Bryan (59:32):
Okay. What is your career end goal, and what are your
hopes for the future of yourcareer?

Dan (59:40):
For your end goal, I've yeah. It's more the the end of
the career picking me. You know,it it it's been an adventure.
That's one of the nice thingsabout an Air Force career and a
career in the CAF is, you don'tnecessarily know when it's gonna
take you. And so that variety ispretty cool.
I'm hoping to to go back towardsWinnipeg, if that works out. But
I don't know for sure. And, youknow, I've I've had enough

(01:00:02):
experience in the Air Force toknow that no matter where I end
up, it's gonna be interestingand rewarding. So see where it
goes. I'm getting on towards theend of my career, though.
So it is weird to be in thelatter part of your career. You
know, maybe the latter third,depending on how long you you
stick around. But it's, it'sdefinitely a strange place to
be, more more runway behind youthan there is ahead. But one of

(01:00:26):
the things that's invigorating,I got it, with this job that's
that's so cool is I get to talkto people at the start of their
career and and and get to get toenjoy a bit of that energy as
well. Yeah.
So I I don't know exactly whereI'm gonna end up, or what's
gonna happen with the rest of mycareer, but I'm pretty sure it's
gonna be fun.

Bryan (01:00:41):
Awesome.

Dan (01:00:42):
You know, we we mentioned having my own little plane. You
know, that's my happy place aswell. So as we're getting to
that stage in life where I can,you know, have, have some things
that I focus on for fun, I stillreally enjoy flying, and and
even just the basics of flying.It is being a pilot, inside the
military, outside the pilot. Ithink it's always gonna be part
of my life.
As long as I remain healthyenough to do it, it's I I enjoy

(01:01:05):
it. I I still like getting up ina very simple aircraft and just
taking off and landing and doingsome some basic maneuvers. It's
it's still fun even now.

Bryan (01:01:13):
That's great. I love to hear that. So we're gonna ask
you our final three questionsthat we ask every guest. You've
had many demanding positions inthe RCAF. How do you stay ready
to do your job?

Dan (01:01:24):
So definitely a focus on self, and I haven't always been
good at that. Focusing on, youknow, sharp from the saw I've
been good at, but I've takencare of my own self. Haven't
always been that great, but Itry to improve that lately, both
physically and mentally. Youknow, I think that's important
for your readiness. And, you youalways have to also find some
ways to continually improve, butI try not to push as hard on

(01:01:45):
that as maybe I have earlier inmy career.
I think that's how you youassure readiness and resilience,
you know, and then also,understanding that we're it's a
team sport and, trying not totake it on all yourself. That's
that's something that's come tome with with age is being
willing to actually ask for abit of help from other people,
being confident enough in my ownabilities to know that it's okay

(01:02:06):
to still ask for help from otherpeople.

Bryan (01:02:08):
Okay. You've seen many pilots come and go through Moose
Jaw and beyond. What skills doyou think make an effective
pilot?

Dan (01:02:16):
I think we always have to go back to the fundamentals. And
we you asked me earlier aboutthat one lesson that I learned.
I I think it comes back to thatas well. We need to be
disciplined as, aviationprofessionals in the basics. We
need to still, you know, yearslater, I'm still practicing
those, trying to improve those.

(01:02:37):
You need to be really good atthe basics. And then when you
get onto your fleet, you need tobecome and maintain excellence
and be good you know, being goodat fighting that that platform
and that crew and thatformation, depending on what
your context is. You know, thatthat's the key to being
effective in this business is iscontinuing to push and get
really good at those basics. Thebasics are gonna shift over

(01:03:00):
time. Right?
We're gonna have to include morecompetencies tied to cyber and
and and space

Bryan (01:03:04):
Mhmm.

Dan (01:03:05):
Power. And so we're gonna have to start getting better at
that too. And then getting thosebasics down so that they become
a habit, and then we canactually, you know, when it
comes time to do things, inanger or in an emergency, those
things are second nature. And soyou can focus on the job at
hand, the challenge at hand whenyou get there rather than the
basics. Yeah.

(01:03:25):
So it always comes back tomaking sure our pilots are are,
1st and foremost, good pilots,in the fundamentals.

Bryan (01:03:33):
I think it's interesting what you said about the basics
changing over time. I thinkthat's, completely true,
especially with the new aircraftthat are coming online as they
get more advanced, like what weconsider to be the basics. I
think what they consider to bethe basics are gonna be a lot
little more advanced than kindof what we are thinking about
when we say focus on the basics.

Dan (01:03:50):
Yeah. For sure. There's going to be, systems management
as a whole new area ofcompetencies that it's always
been there to a certain extent,but I think we'll take more and
more focus as we get into moreand more complicated aircraft
that can, you know, help us dooperations better. But the, the
way we fly those aircraft willchange for sure.

Bryan (01:04:11):
What advice would you offer to young Canadians
aspiring to join the RCAF andembark on a career in aviation?

Dan (01:04:19):
You know, certainly go out and try to fly first, see if you
actually like it. It is not itis not for everybody. You know,
a a lot of our interest in meand not a lot of the people who
are who do who do watch it in apilot training, a lot of it
comes back to the physiological,you know, just gets airsick.
Other ones, they get there andand you realize, and it's
perfectly okay. I'd ratherpeople find out early than
realize maybe it's not for them.

Bryan (01:04:39):
Yeah. For sure.

Dan (01:04:40):
Go try it out for try it on for size first and see if you
really like it because, youknow, one of the things I I say
to the students as well, eachnew course that comes through,
it it it doesn't get any easier.You know, it actually gets
harder as we continue going on.You just get better at it. Yep.
So, you know, you you get betterat the fundamentals when you get
to your OTU.
You get better at flying thataircraft. It never gets easier.

(01:05:02):
As a professional in themilitary, it doesn't matter your
occupation. It always getsthere's you're you're going to
do more and more things that areharder and harder, but you just
get better at it, and your yourtoolbox grows. You're able to
easier adapt to those newchallenges.
So that's something to thinkabout as well. You know, if
you're if you're motivated bythat, if you like the idea of
service, then absolutely do it.Try it on for size first. You

(01:05:24):
know, go out go out and rent anaircraft. Take a introductory
flight with somebody.
If you're young and, interestedin the cadets, go go fly with
your cadets. Yeah, drill withthem. Take some of the other
courses. See the things that,that inflame your passions and
and, you know, bring you joy,and, chase those things.

Bryan (01:05:42):
Yeah. I think that's great advice. Okay, Dan. That
does it for part 2 of our chathere. I just wanna thank you so
much for your time.
I know you are a very busy guy,being the wing commander. It's
not easy to put aside some timesometimes. So I really
appreciate you taking the timetoday to come here and chat with
us.

Dan (01:05:59):
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Brian, for having me. It's
been a lot of fun.

Bryan (01:06:02):
Alright. That wraps up our chat with Colonel Dan
Coutts, current wing commanderof 15 Wing Moose Jaw. For our
next episode, we'll be doing aspecial Valentine's Day episode
where we'll sit down with Pauland Mikaela Goddard. Listeners
will remember Paul Goddard fromour episode on the Cormoran.
Paul and Mikaela will be talkingabout their time as a service
couple as Paul is a pilot andMikaela is a former Akzo or

(01:06:25):
navigator.
Do you have any questions orcomments about anything you've
heard on the show? Would you orsomeone you know make a great
guest on the show, or do youhave a great idea for a show?
You can reach out to us at thepilot project podcast
atgmail.com or on all socialmedia at atpodpilotproject. As
always, we'd like to thank youfor tuning in today and ask for
your help with the big three.That's like and follow us on

(01:06:47):
social media, share with yourfriends, and follow and rate us
5 stars wherever you get yourpodcasts.
That's all for now. Thanks forlistening. Keep the blue side
up. See you.