Episode 78: The Gunner: Life of a USAF Aerial Gunner and flying on the AC130H Spectre Gunship and the HH-60G PAVEHAWK Part 1 - Anthony Dyer

In Part 1 of our conversation with USAF Tech Sgt. Anthony Dyer (Ret), host Bryan Morrison explores Anthony’s journey from growing up in the Appalachian Mountains to serving as an aerial gunner on the legendary AC-130H Spectre gunship. Anthony walks us through his early Air Force years as an F-15E weapons loader, the impact of 9/11, his transition to firefighting, and the demanding pipeline that led him into special operations aviation. He shares what it’s like to fire a 105 mm cannon from the sky, the pressure of close air support, his baptism of fire on his first combat mission, and how writing his memoir Moonchild helped him confront trauma and rebuild. A powerful, honest look at service, resilience, and life inside one of the most iconic aircraft in the world.

American Veteran's Crisis Line (24/7 confidential crisis support):
Dial 988 then press 1 OR
Text 838255

To contact Anthony for speaking engagements etc, you can reach him at [e-mail]

To buy his book you can visit Barnes and Noble or Amazon at the following links (or simply Google "Moon Child Anthony Dyer for many options):
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/moon-child-anthony-dyer/1147103074
https://www.amazon.ca/Moon-Child-Special-Missions-Aviator/dp/B0DZMXBHJ4

Episode Transcript

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for departure here at the pilotproject podcast, the best source
for stories and advice from RCAFand mission aviation pilots
brought to you by Sky'sMagazine. I'm your host, Brian
Morrison, and today we're doingsomething different here with
our first American guest.
With me today is author of thebook Moonchild and United States
Air Force Veteran, tech sergeantAnthony Dyer, a retired aerial
gunner on the a c one thirty hSpectre gunship and the HH 60 g

(01:21):
Pave Hawk helicopter. Anthony,I'm excited to get to know you
and chat about your book today.Welcome to the show.

Anthony (01:27):
Hey. Thanks for having me, Ron. It's a privilege and
honor to be here, man. Excited.

Bryan (01:30):
Yeah. I'm really happy to have you here. So today, we'll
be talking about Anthony's earlydays in the Appalachians joining
the United States Air Force orUSAF and his baptism of fire as
an aerial gunner. But before wejump into any of that, let's go
through Anthony's bio. AnthonyDyer was born under a full moon
in 1982 in Silva, North Carolinain the heart of the Appalachian

(01:51):
Mountains.
In 2000, he joined the U. S. AirForce beginning his career as an
F-15E Strike Eagle munitionsloader at Seymour Johnson Air
Force Base. Following theattacks of nine eleven, he
loaded air to air missiles foroperation Noble Eagle before
cross training as an air forcefirefighter where he spent
nearly five years protectinglives and aircraft on the flight

(02:11):
line. Still drawn to the skies,Anthony set his sights on the
pointiest tip of the spear,special operations aviation.
He earned his place as a specialmissions aviator with the mighty
sixteenth special operationssquadron flying aboard the AC
one thirty h Spectre gunshipbefore serving with the forty
first rescue squadron, thelegendary Jolly Greens on the HH

(02:32):
60 g Pave Hawk helicopter. Overmore than a decade in special
operations, he flew high riskmissions around the globe
earning multiple accoladesincluding the air force's Jolly
Green Rescue Mission of the Yearin 2018. In February 2020, he
and his teammates were furtherlauded for their actions by then
secretary of the air forceBarbara Barrett at the air

(02:53):
warfare symposium. Afterretiring from active duty,
Anthony turned to writing asboth therapy and tribute. His
debut memoir, Moonchild, TheRoots and Wings of a USAF Combat
Special Missions Aviator, offersa raw and compelling look at
war, trauma, addiction, andrecovery, shedding light on the
invisible battles many veteransand service members face.

(03:15):
Now based in New Mexico, Anthonywrites and speaks to break the
stigma around mental health inthe military, aviation and
veteran communities. When heisn't writing, he enjoys
fishing, basketball, andspending time with his wife and
daughter. So Anthony, first ofall, can you tell us about your
upbringing in the AppalachiansOf North Carolina?

Anthony (03:35):
Yeah. So I grew up in a small town in Silva in the
Appalachians Of North Carolinathere. It's about a hour West of
Asheville. Pretty much the mostnotable city next to us would be
Asheville. And, you know, it's asince the community was strong,
everybody knew everybody.
I felt like I could, like, throwa baseball across my whole town.
It was, you know, pretty small.Probably high school graduating

(03:55):
class was, like, 300 people. Youknow, there's a lot of lot of,
like, Scott Irish heritage therein Western North Carolina as
well as the, know, there's aneastern band of Cherokee, the
the native American culturethere as well. So you really
have a nice melding pot of allthese different cultures and,
you know, backgrounds and, youknow, all coming together just
to, you know, treat each otherwith friendly respect, you know.

(04:16):
And it's of those things like,if you wanna moonshine back in
the day, just go to yourneighbor's house type type
atmosphere, you know. But, yeah,you know, basketball was big
and, football was big as far ashigh school sports go. You know,
I didn't, really have my firstflight until I was, like, third
grade on a actual helicoptertrip my friend had over the
Pigeon Forest, Tennessee area.So, you know, I got to see the

(04:36):
the world from that perspectivefor the first time. And, you
know, I knew somewhat that, youknow, aviation would you know,
takes somewhat a big part of mylife.
And, you know, once I, you know,realized that Appalachians gave
me my roots, I definitely got mywings later and the

Bryan (04:49):
air force let me accomplish that. Oh, that's
awesome. Like reading the book,it sounds like a really amazing
place to grow up and a placewhere you can connect with the
outdoors and and really kind ofenjoy some of the good things in
life.

Anthony (05:02):
Yeah. That, you know, there there was like, if I
wanted to go fishing, I would Iwould go walk down the street a
mile, just half a mile to go tothe Tuckaseegee River and just
beautiful, beautiful area, youknow, and the Nantahala Gorge
and, you know, there's ropeswings, you know, and there's
always like the I call themfront porch conversations with
my, you know, the friends andpeople I looked up to to get
advice. And, you know, what thatinvolves usually is like a, you

(05:24):
know, some sort of swing andthen some sweet tea, you know.
Down south, we have sweet tea.There's a

Bryan (05:28):
Yeah.

Anthony (05:28):
You know, if you go to a restaurant and ask for tea,
they just look at know, I'm sureit's vice versa up north. But,
yeah, it's just that that sortof mentality, you know, after
after every Sunday, there'ssomebody who'd be having some
sort of potluck, you know, meetup and it's really good food,
really good people.

Bryan (05:42):
Yeah. That sounds really nice. We we get a little taste
of that sometimes in small townshere, but I get a feeling it's a
whole different a wholedifferent place down in the
South when it comes to that thatsmall town kind of neighborly
atmosphere.

Anthony (05:55):
Yeah. Everybody knows everybody and that can either,
you know, usually be be a goodthing in some instances and then
sometimes it's, you know, youhear this and that, you know,
what what's true or whatnot. Butit spreads fast, I'll say that
word, you know.

Bryan (06:07):
Yeah. Yeah. I believe that. Yeah. So what led you to
write your first book?

Anthony (06:12):
Yeah. So I I was getting a prolonged exposure
therapy my last year in the airforce. And what what had
happened what what turned youknow, started out as a weekend
drinking habit, turned into a,you know, a pint of some sort of
hard liquor at night at leastjust to go to sleep. And Mhmm.
You know, my wife gives me theultimatum of, you know, either
the alcohol or or me and yourkid, you know, and, you know,

(06:33):
thank God I chose them, myfamily.
And so I decided to get help.You SOCOM, a lot of these units,
we have like, the preservationof the force and family, which
what that means is you get a,basically like a physical
therapist, you get a physicaltrainer and then a psychologist.
And I didn't want medication atthe time, so I did prolonged
exposure treatment. And thewhole idea behind that is to get

(06:54):
comfortable being uncomfortable,like to write out your story
over and over, then, you know,tell your story. And basically I
remember going in there with achip on my shoulder, like, does
this what does thispsychiatrist, what does this
lady know about, you know,mental health and all that?
I come to realization, like whenshe said the, you know, typical
cliche analogy of like, youknow, you wouldn't call a
dentist to fix your car type.And I was like, okay, I'll, I'll

(07:15):
give it a whirl. You know, firsttime I told the story, you know,
I cried, she, she cried andshe's like, you know, she, you
should tell your story like overand over a 100 times. You know,
I, I did, and I said no, and,you know, choir professional and
all that. And then once I gotout and the, the dust settles,
you know, like, you realize whenyou out process the military,
there's often not even a doorhandle on the other side of that

(07:35):
door.
So you can't, you can't get backinto this, this machine that
I've known for twenty one years,right?

Bryan (07:40):
And so

Anthony (07:40):
I decided, you know, maybe if I I should put this on
pen to pad and and get thisstory out there. And if if one
person seeks help and realizesit's okay to get help,
especially in these aviation andvery uncommon jobs, it's it's
okay to to to not be okay aftertwo decades of war and just
leave it on the page and someoneget help, that's a win.

Bryan (07:58):
Yeah. Yeah. It is it's a powerful thing when you can
share your story. I've had achance I've been I've been
blessed to do that on this showas well. It's a powerful thing
when you have a chance to shareyour story and there's a chance
that somebody out there maybecan relate and feel like they're
not alone.
And maybe that leads them to getsome help. I've been lucky
enough to know that a few peoplewho have contacted me and I've

(08:21):
been able to walk them throughthat and it's a pretty amazing
thing.

Anthony (08:24):
Oh, yeah. And I you know, I've I've talked someone
off a ledge before too, and whenthat happens, you're never
really ready for that thatconversation. But being, I
guess, the silver lining is I Iknow what to sort of recognize
in in the guy's voice when ithappened and everything, you
know, to make sure they got helpand, you know, prevent the the
worst from happening. You know,we talk about, you know, 22 a
day, man, and that's even one'stoo many. You know, telling

(08:47):
these stories in theseplatforms, it it really does
help.
And and getting help'scontagious, you know?

Bryan (08:52):
Yeah. Yeah. And and for the audience, the twenty two a
day that Anthony's talking aboutis, an estimated twenty two, I
believe it's veterans a day,commit suicide. So it's
obviously a huge issue, and andit's definitely something that
that needs to to be addressed.Okay.
So we're going to talk quicklyabout SIFMAP or the Canadian

(09:13):
Forces Member AssistanceProgram. This program is for
regular force members, reserveswho are on duty during an
incident, and parents andsiblings of CAF regular and
reserve force members who areinjured or who die while in
service. The program providesdirect access to telephone
counseling services twenty fourhours a day, seven days a week.
From my own personal experience,you can call or use their online

(09:35):
chat feature to make anappointment. They then set you
up with a professional and Ibelieve you get 10 free mental
health sessions.
For more details, I highlyencourage you to Google CFMAP,
that's C F M A P, and click onthe canada.ca link. The beauty
of this program is it's free andconfidential, so no one in the
CAF will know you used it, notyour supervisor or chain of

(09:55):
command, and not your doctor. Idon't say that to encourage
people hiding their conditionsfrom their doctor. I personally
think it's important to be openwith your doctor about what
you're going through, but ifyou're afraid to ask for help,
it's a great way to dip yourtoes in the water
confidentially. So how do youcontact them?
Listen closely everyone, takeout your phone and save this
number because you or someoneyou love may need it one day.
The number is [phone].Again, that's [phone]. And

(10:23):
now on with the show. So thebook's early chapters touch on
themes of identity andbelonging.
Why was it important toestablish those ideas so soon?

Anthony (10:34):
Because I realized the importance of, the team aspect
of it that, you know, I think itwas a Confucius statement. Many
hands make light work. Right?Like, you know, whatever the
task is, the objective is. Whatwas beautiful about the gunships
is, like, you know, we had 13crew members at the time in this
sort of organized chaos to getthis close air support.
And it's really split seconddecisions that make sure the

(10:55):
guys on the ground get home.And, you know, so the the sense
of identity with a team,something bigger than myself was
that was always very importantto me. And, you know, it was
always instilled in me even insports and, you know, Cub Scouts
growing up, doing things in themountains. Like, you get a lot
more done together than justjust one opinion, one mind.

Bryan (11:13):
Yeah. And you mentioned sports. You also mentioned in
the book that basketball is likereligion where you grew up. What
skill did you pick up in highschool basketball that continued
to serve you in the USF?

Anthony (11:23):
So I was I was at a basketball camp, my my junior
year. Was it well, I say that,but the guy came to us. He was a
a coach from, I think somewherenear New Jersey, but ended up
with coaching at Lenoir Ryanlater. But this guy gets up
there and he shoots, like,literally, like, a 100 free
throws. And I don't even know ifhe missed once.
He and he was basically thepoint he was trying to make is
the key to success, not justbasketball, anything's

(11:43):
repetition. Mhmm. And if youlook at these these these jobs,
like aerial gunner and, like,you know, special mission
jayvaders, we're all creaturesof habit, very very checklist
oriented. So, you know, I eventold my daughter the other day,
if you wanna be successful atsuccessful at anything, you
practice, practice, practice,and just that repetition. So
that that that was the biggestthing that basketball told me.

Bryan (12:02):
Yeah. Yeah. And that's a huge part of, I think, any any
professional pursuing theircraft and wanting to really
perfect what they do, you haveto get the reps in.

Anthony (12:14):
Oh, yeah. As Michael Jordan said, you know, you miss
a 100% of the shots you don'ttake. Yeah. And you could
imagine how many how many shotshe's taken.

Bryan (12:21):
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So you enlisted in the USAF on
07/18/2000. What does that eventconsist of?
Like, I think most Canadianlisteners will be somewhat
familiar with what that lookslike in Canada. What's that look
like in The States?

Anthony (12:36):
So so back then, there well, I still may be, but
there's this thing calleddelayed enlistment program. And
when I was, you know, 17, aboutto turn 18, let's call it my
last, I don't know, four to sixmonths left. And, you know,
before I left in, my high schoolsenior year there, my dad gives
me the typical college, hey,it's time to, you know, get a
job, go to college, get out. Andso long story short, I talked to

(12:56):
a Navy recruiter at first,talked about being on a boat six
months. I was, you know, was notfor me.
Talked to the army. I was like,it's not for me. And I gonna
talk to my dad about the qualityof life in the air force. And he
was a, he was in way before Iwas about four years down in the
McDills, a communications guy.And he talked to me about
quality of life, sort of the,you know, the TDY with golf
clubs type mentality.
And, so basically I went andtalked to a recruiter there in

(13:17):
Asheville, was the closest oneback then in North Carolina. We
would, we would have differentmeetings and stuff like that
throughout the four to sixmonths, make sure I'm doing
good, you know, and usuallyinvolved in a drug test or like,
some sort of physical fitness,see where I was at type stuff
and get ready for basictraining. You know, I hadn't
signed on the actual dottedline, as they say, yet. The
07/18/2000, that's when you getwhen I went to MEPS there in

(13:39):
Charlotte, North Carolina,that's where they, you know, one
of the most stringent physicalsyou can get, all that stuff.

Bryan (13:44):
MEPS stands for military entrance processing station, and
it is where recruits go fortesting and medical screening.

Anthony (13:52):
It's in Charlotte there. And, basically, they're
giving you your physical, that,you know, the drug testing you,
all these different things. And,you know, I had my job lined up,
to go that I did, and, you know,I came with a bonus and all
that. And then finally at theend of that, you know, your
head's spinning because you justdid all these different events
to enlist. And, you know, yousign the dotted line and line in
some officer.
I to be honest with you, I can'tit was so long ago. Can't

(14:13):
remember who it was or what evenbranch they were in. Does your
oath of enlistment? But but Idefinitely knew that I was
taking an oath that it wassomething bigger than myself.
And Mhmm.
But but, you know, even at thatpoint, though, there were still
words like duty, honor, and,like, you know, service before
self. I I didn't know till tillway later in my career. And that
late in the early AM that night,you know, or something like
that, I I was flying to SanAntonio on my first fixed wing

(14:33):
flight ever for basic training.

Bryan (14:36):
Yeah. That's kind of the interesting thing. In in Canada,
many times, square you'll intothe Canadian Armed Forces and
then wait a month or two beforeyou leave for basic. I know I
had I had a bunch of time. Ithink they gave me leave without
pay for a few weeks before basicstarted.
But that's not how it worked foryou. You left that night. Right?

Anthony (14:52):
Yeah. Yeah. It was that night right after signing. But
but I I sort of knew, like, adate from the recruiter and the
delayed enlistment program.Okay.
Expect sort of this day within afew days. And, you know, and
then that on when I was donewith all my physical set, all
that stuff they do, I signed onthe dotted line, reenlist, and I
went to some some hotel that wasconnected to like a Shoney's
and, you know, got some food andgot little sleep, and then next

(15:13):
thing you know, I'm on that thatflight.

Bryan (15:15):
Man, that's a fast change from civilian to military life,
but that's how they do it downthere. Right? Like, it's cross
the line and and now you'remilitary and that's that.

Anthony (15:23):
Yeah. You you put a, you know, a good way of baptized
by fire. That's really it's alot of fire hose effect, you
know? Yeah. It's all this, youknow, get the basic, you're, you
know, you never I've never beenout of the town other than like,
you know, a few states over, youknow, different you know, was it
was cool though to see, like,people I've never you know,
cultures I've never seen before,with with everyone, you know,
and just just, like I said, allcoming together, man, to to get

(15:45):
through this thing.

Bryan (15:46):
Yeah. I love that about the Canadian military too, just
meeting people from all over thecountry. And, you know, being
from Southwest Ontario, I hadnot I'd traveled the country a
little with my family, buthadn't really had a chance to
meet a ton of people who weren'tfrom where I was from. And I do
find that's a really coolexperience in the military.

Anthony (16:03):
Oh, yeah. And you get to I mean, there's so much stuff
I never knew about just theearth and, you know, different
cultures and like differentdifferent states even, you

Bryan (16:10):
know? Mhmm. An important theme in your book is living a
house money life. Can youexplain what that means to the
listeners?

Anthony (16:19):
Yeah. So I I realized at at this point, like, I'm
taking a gamble and and to livea house like, when we say house
money, we're talking about,like, how much more aggressive,
like, you ever playedblackjacket roulette at a
casino, like, would a persongamble if you're playing with a
house's money? So I tried tolook at look at life and
decisions through that lens. Youknow, I heard an awesome quote.
I'm not sure agree with itfully, but it said something to

(16:41):
the effect of, like, you know,empires are built on taking
risk, nine to fives are built onavoiding them.
And, you know, I realized Ididn't wanna be a nine to five
guy. I wanted to to do somethingbigger myself and and take that
risk, and no matter what I do,just, you know, just just die
living, you know.

Bryan (16:57):
Mhmm. Yeah. You know, I I can relate so much that I
remember when I was a teenagertrying to figure out what I
wanted to do. I didn't knowmuch, but I knew it. I didn't
want it to be an office job.
I I knew I didn't want to justsit in a chair. Now it's kind of
funny because when you fly, youend up sitting in a chair while
you're flying anyways. But youknow what I mean? Like Oh, yeah.
You I didn't want it to be a anine to five sitting on my butt

(17:19):
somewhere in an office.
I want I knew I was gonna bemaybe first responder or
military or something like that.So I can relate to that for
sure.

Anthony (17:26):
Yeah. And there was a I remember just this was always a
thought, especially later in mycareer, I thought about this,
you know, in, you know,elementary school, had a
basically, a teacher say, youknow, you're you're never gonna
make a living looking out awindow. And what what they were
really saying is, like,basically, like, you're not
gonna amount to this and that,and, you know, you can't do it,
you know. And the biggest thingI learned with that is, like,
you know, if somebody tells youyou can't do something, that's

(17:48):
that's a heck of a motivationright there. You know, prove
them wrong and just like I said,if you want something, go for
the gusto, you know.

Bryan (17:55):
Yeah. And, of course, the irony being that eventually you
were making a living looking outa window.

Anthony (17:59):
Yeah. Think the the other day, I even on my my
Instagram page, put, like, youknow, description, you know,
just a gunship dude never made aliving looking out a window, now
an author somehow. Somethinglike that.

Bryan (18:11):
You know? Just just the irony of it. Yeah. That's
awesome. So you graduated frombasic training in mid September
two thousand.
Our audience is pretty familiarwith the Canadian system, but
can you describe USAP basictraining to us?

Anthony (18:24):
Yeah. Yeah. So so back then, it was six weeks. I I'm
not sure exactly how long it isnow. Maybe, like, eight weeks,
but there was basically, there'sfive weeks of you're just
learning, like, customs andcourtesies, you know, facing
movements, drills, stuff likethat, and, you know, how to be a
flight, you know, and everybodywas sort of designated like,
hey, you clean the, you know,the bathrooms, you align the

(18:46):
beds, all these different tasks,you know, and and, you know,
there was basically you're incompetition with these other
flights to get what they call anhonor flight.
That was a big thing for us,remember. Basically, you wanted
to let least the merits, andthere was testing that was
involved in physical testing,which involved a you know, they
tested in the beginning a mileand a half run. Then back then
it was, how many pushups can youdo in a minute and sit ups in a

(19:07):
minute. And changed a little bitnow, but, yeah, it was, it was,
wasn't bad at all, to be honestwith you. Like, least at that
point, didn't think.
And then the six week, they hadthis thing called the beast or
it's called the beast, butbasically, you're out in a, you
know, somewhat of a a forwarddeployed type scenario, and
you're you're sleeping in a atent for the first time and then
on a cot for the first time and

Bryan (19:26):
Mhmm.

Anthony (19:26):
You know, doing a low crawl, stuff like that. Trying
to trying to get some more yourethos in you and stuff like that
before you, you know, exit basictraining.

Bryan (19:33):
Yeah. You know, that actually is very, very similar
to the program that we do herein Canada. Like, as you say, the
beginning is kind of just formedinto making you into somewhat of
a military member, making sureyou know how to deport yourself
and just kind of making sure youknow how to take care of your
uniform and work as a team andall that stuff. And then you get
into the stages in the fieldwhere you go on these little

(19:55):
field exercises and kind of, youknow, play army almost and Yeah.
And yeah, go from there.
So it's very similar. Awesome.So your first trade was weapons
loader, affectionately known asload toads. Can you briefly
describe what this job consistedof?

Anthony (20:12):
Yeah. So the weapons loader was the two w one AFSC,
which a lot of like, some peoplecall that a MOS, like, basically
what your specialty code foryour job is. And what that
consists of is you have a threeman crew usually that you have a
one man, which is like a like asergeant, like some sort of a
team lead, if you will, and thena two man who who preps the
aircraft, you know, the bomb,you know, the bomb racks, the

(20:34):
bruise, and stuff like that. AndYep. And the three man, that was
that was my job at the time todrive the it's called a jammer.
The reason they call this loadtoads is because if you extend
the legs on this thing to getthe balance of this forklift
type mechanical working of thisthing and, you know, you're
loading these 500, you know,even 2,000 pound bombs onto
these aircraft. And that was myjob to sort of do that. And
before that, prep the bomb withthe the fuses and the landers

(20:57):
and stuff like that. And but,yeah, we got to put the long
story short bombs, missiles onthe fighter jets, and in some
cases, guys do the bombers,etcetera.

Bryan (21:05):
Okay. So pretty physically intense job?

Anthony (21:08):
It it can be. Like, the the probably the hardest thing
to do was, like, the the AIMnine, which I forgot how much it
weighed, but you had threepeople holding this thing above
your head and sliding on a railthen connecting it. Yeah. So
that was it wasn't too bad, butit could be, you know.

Bryan (21:21):
Yeah. You'd see many people get hurt doing that kind
of stuff, or is it all prettysmooth?

Anthony (21:25):
Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty smooth. You know, you got
three people on it and thenpossibly a a shoulder injury
here or there, but, you know,older or military.

Bryan (21:32):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So as it did for all of us who were
alive at that time, everythingchanged for you on 09/11/2001.
Can you tell us about thisexperience?

Anthony (21:43):
Yes. So I was on a mid shift at that time, and that
was, you know, approximatelymidnight to, like, 8AM is what
that meant. So we would loadthe, you know, the aircraft
before the next morning sortiego for the so the fighter pilots
could train and stuff like that,and the March, you know, fighter
squadron there. And that was atSeymour Johnson, North Carolina.
And I just went to sleep, itfelt like, in a I don't know if

(22:04):
it was around 9AM.
My the two man, one of my goodfriends, he came in, you know,
beat on my door and he said,hey, Diary, have you seen what
happened? And I'm, you know,waking up. Was like, no. What
are you talking about? And Iwent to the day room, which is
like a common area in the centerof the dorm where everybody can
meet, eat, you know, cook, stufflike that, play cards, and, you
know, show my age here.
But there was like a tube, youknow, tube style television with

(22:26):
maybe like three channels on it.One of those probably being like
AFN.

Bryan (22:29):
For the listeners, AFN is the American Forces Network.

Anthony (22:33):
You know, I can't remember which newscast was on,
but I remember the first planehad already hidden. By the time
I was there, that's when the thesecond one, like, nine
something, 09:15 or somethinglike that, you know, hit. And,
you know, I realized at thatmoment, like, it it lit a fire
on me and, like, you know, youknow, the the fact those 343
firefighters ran in that thatbuilding that day and all the
first responders that ran inwhile everyone runs out, you

(22:54):
know, that that stayed with me.Like, what's what's different in
their DNA? Like, what kind ofperson is that?
You know? Like like, I wanna belike that that guy, you know?
And Mhmm. You know, at the sametime, there was a a level of
vengeance that I'm I'm sure weall had. You know, we wanted to
to get revenge, right, asAmericans, and they took out
3,000 plus lives.
And so obviously, some anger wasthere and stuff like that. And,

(23:14):
you know, five years down theline, I decided to to finally be
to be a firefighter and, youknow, to sort of looking up to
those guys, and that mentalityis why I did that.

Bryan (23:23):
Yeah. That was a that was a crazy day. And for some of our
listeners, there's a there's adecently diverse age range in
our in our listeners. And, a lotof listeners will remember
exactly where they were thatday, but some of our younger
listeners, it's crazy to thinknow that people who were born
after that are in their twentiesand they won't realize like

(23:47):
until they have a day thathappens in their life, they
won't realize what that day waslike. Like that was just like a
day where everybody rememberswhere they were, how they found
out, what they did for the restof the day.
It was just like everythingchanged. And it affected the
course for a lot of us whojoined the military or who were
in the military. Like I joined acouple years later. It affected
the course of our lives for thenext couple decades.

Anthony (24:08):
Oh, yeah. I and I remember, like, even right after
it happened, like, we we had tosort of we had to load the
F-18Es, the Strike Eagles therewith, like, you know, live aim
nines and live aim one twenties.That was the first time I'd ever
really touched a live munition.And, you know, I'm eight what,
19 years old at that point. And,you know, I remember thinking,
like, if this missile doesn'tcome back, something else would
happen.
Right? They Yeah. The fighterpilots had to do what they had

(24:30):
to do. Yeah. It was just a verysurreal, like, I'll never forget
that that moment, that feeling.

Bryan (24:34):
Mhmm. Mhmm. When you say that, you're talking about,
like, basically, it would havemeant they had to shoot down an
airliner or or some otherthreat.

Anthony (24:42):
Yeah. Yeah. It was a operation Noble Eagle is what it
was called. And we had to loadthe the strike eagles, and they
would, you know, up and down theto New York and back wherever
the case was and, you know,basically patrolling stuff like
that. Because, know, we're stilltrying to figure out as a
country, like, what how thishappened, you know Yeah.
All the intel on it, stuff likethat. Yeah. Yeah.

Bryan (25:02):
So as you've said, you decided to retrain in fire
protection. Can you tell usabout your training at the Lewis
f Garland DOD Fire Academy and acouple of highlights of your
time as a firefighter?

Anthony (25:11):
Yeah. What what was really cool about that that
academy is you're you're withevery branch. So it was like,
you know, the the navyfirefighters, the marine
firefighters, and army, even thecoast guard, all all of us
together, even some civilianswere in there in the mix. And if
I remember, I was a six or sevenweek block, and, you know, in
each block, you had a differentinstructor. So you got a mixture
of everything, and you'relearning everything from

(25:32):
structure firefighting, youknow, basics to aircraft
firefighting basics to hazmattechnicians, all these different
things, ropes and knots, allwithin this six or seven week
course.
So it was probably the mostphysical job I ever had was, or
training wise, was definitelythat, I would say that, you
know, and just learning how tobreathe in your mask and
conserve your bottle, stuff likethat. And, you know, the good

(25:53):
thing about on base though islike usually any DOD facility,
everything's still fire safe,which is a good thing. Like you
may get like, you know, saw,like, three structure fires, I
believe, my whole whole timedoing that.

Bryan (26:02):
Mhmm. How long were you doing that for?

Anthony (26:05):
It was approximately five years. Ended that in 2010.
So

Bryan (26:08):
Okay. Yeah. And so as far as what comes next, you've
mentioned that you felt thatinternal sense of vengeance for
nine eleven, and ultimately,this inspired you to retrain
into aerial gunner. Can you tellus about this time in your life
and a little bit more about whatmotivated you to do this?

Anthony (26:24):
Yeah. So I was home on leave, actually, then I was at a
pizza parlor with some friends.This is sometime in 2010. And,
you know, we're all we're allsitting there, I look out. You
know, I see the same cracks inthis this small town road that
I've I've seen my whole life.
It you know, they've been theretheir whole life. And, you know,
I I realized at that momentthat, you know, we can't take
anything with us when we when wedie. And, like, I feel like I
was sitting on the sideline onthis whole global war on terror,

(26:47):
and I really wanted to to sortof test my mettle and get in a
fight. And basically, you know,I decided at that point, like, I
don't wanna hold back. I don'twanna leave, you know, cracks.
I wanna leave craters. And atthat point, I got back to the
firehouse, and I'd read a, abook by Dick Couch called Chosen
Soldier, and it's aboutbasically the green green beret
teams and what they go throughfor their training, their 12 man
teams. And the beginning of thatbook, it was Isaiah six eight,

(27:09):
the the send me verse in thebible. And this is way before
the movie Fury made that famousand all that.

Bryan (27:14):
But Mhmm.

Anthony (27:14):
It did something to me that day where I was like, you
know what? Like, I wanted to Iwanted to be the the send me
guy. And I was like, there's nobetter way to to be on you know,
get in a fight than a h two onethirty Spectre gunship. And, you
know, definitely gave me theopportunity to do that, you
know, and I'll talk about itlater, but, know, I got to do
more in an hour and a half tohour flight from my country than
I'd done my whole life at thatpoint. So I look at it.

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Bryan (28:04):
When you decided to retrain into aerial gunner, you
first had to attend a litany ofcourses. Can you tell us about
these?

Anthony (28:11):
Yeah. So the first course I took was aircrew
fundamentals, and you're andyou're learning basic basic
flying stuff like, you know,lift, drag, stuff like that,
center of gravity. You'relearning about flight hours, how
many flight hours you can getin, like, a a ninety day period,
30 all that stuff. Yep. Verybasic stuff.
And then I went to pretty muchthe same area in the Medina
Annex there at, at, Lackland AirForce Base in San Antonio. And I

(28:34):
went into basic aerial gunner,which and that one's a it's a
very brief overview of all theweapons you could possibly
operate. And, know, you therewas anything from the minigun to
the, or the Gatu minigun to theGAL eighteen fifty cal to all
the way to the one zero fivemillimeter and the 40
millimeter. And, you learn alittle bit of cycle of ops and,
like, sort of the two differentroles of, you know, of these

(28:55):
different platforms, stuff likethat. And so very brief.
And then right after that, theysend you to a steer school,
which is, you know, I tellpeople the best training I've
ever had in my life, and Idefinitely wanna do that again.
But that's survival schools upthere in in Washington state.
Yeah. And, you know, it was itwas three weeks of that, and
then the water survival back inPensacola there, Florida Naval

(29:15):
Air Station. You know, the thehardest training I ever had
definitely was was the Dunker,though.
I'll say that. Can you tell usabout the Dunker? Yeah. So I
actually failed the Dunker thefirst time, and what it is is,
like, they have this thishelicopter fuselage, and and
they they take you down and theyroll it over, and you're you're
upside down. And on the lastiteration, basically, you're

(29:36):
you're getting these smoked outgoggles or blacked out goggles,
and, you know, you're, I don'tknow, 10 to 15 feet underwater
upside down.
This water's rushing throughyour nose, and you're trying to
breathe in what we call a Heedsbottle, and it's basically like
a five minute, like a like ascuba bottle, but it's a little
one. And for the life of me, Icould not find this door handle,
man. And like, there was awindow handle and like, you
know, I had to I felt like I wasabout to drown, you know, and

(29:58):
give the sign, you know, for thesteer guy to give me out. And,
you know, I did about three orfour times. And I don't know,
just never quit, but at the sametime, like, I knew that was
could be the end of like mychance to fly and stuff like
that.
And so the SEER guy talked to meafterwards. He like, hey, he's
like, you're gonna work withthis other SEER instructor for a
week and we're gonna get you tothe point where you know this
inside and out, man. And so buthe did. He got me so comfortable

(30:20):
being uncomfortable. Like, youknow, the second time I did that
course, I think I was done in,twenty minutes.
It was just that guy did areally, really good job of
getting me in that getting outof that panic mode and into
like, okay, think about what Igot for Sega. Get out of here.
You know, stuff like that.

Bryan (30:35):
That's awesome that they were willing and able to take
that extra time to invest inyou. And, you know, it would
have been really easy just belike, alright, this guy can't do
it. But they turned around andand helped you make it through.
That's awesome.

Anthony (30:47):
Yeah. Those those guys are I mean, they're incredible
what they do. And, you know, solike I said, lot of this is the
best training I've ever had, butI don't wanna ever have to
repeat it again. But he did youknow, and I don't know if it was
just a good attitude that goes along way in the in the aviation
world, whatever the case may be.And but they definitely gave me
a second chance.
I'm to this day very thankfulfor that guy.

Bryan (31:05):
Yeah. And and that's true what you said there. Like a good
attitude does go a massivelylong way in the aviation
aviation world. Like there aretimes where honestly people are
gonna care more about your yourattitude than your hands and
feet skills as long as you'recompetent. Especially in tough
situations, that's what's gonnaget you through.

(31:26):
Right? So it it does matter ahuge amount.

Anthony (31:28):
Yeah. That's you know, I've never thought about this at
this moment, but we have thisthing in the air force called I
don't know if you guys have itcalled crew resource management.
And part of that course is theyteach the triangle where, the
very you know, the base of thispyramid is is attitude. And then
at the top two, the, you know,the triangle's cutting out there
is skills and then knowledge.Yep.
And basically, if you have theattitude, you know, you can get

(31:49):
the skills and and knowledge.Yeah. So it was a I don't know.
It's just a little parallelmoment there.

Bryan (31:54):
Yeah. Yeah. We have a we have CRM and I think we have a a
similar, if not identical modelas well. I imagine there's a lot
of collaboration between theRCAF and the USAF for flight
safety and all those types ofthings. So even flight
authorizations and stuff thatwe've kind of, I think I think
borrowed from the Americansystem.
Awesome. So after all thistraining, you finally get to

(32:16):
start flight training. Can youtell us about your first flight?

Anthony (32:20):
Oh, man. My first flight was absolute on the AC
one thirty guns, it was adisaster. And, like, what I mean
by that, it went so bad, man.We're like, the instructor told
me something effective. Like,you're the reason they have to
to brief seat belts onairliners.
Like, my head was bent. Yeah. SoI didn't know where I was at.
There's all these commune thesecomms going off, stuff like
that. And, you know, we didn'teven, on that one, if I
remember, get to, you know,shoot at that point because it

(32:42):
was just so bad, you know, and,you know, he saw me lick at my
wounds or whatnot, and he askedme the question, like, what
what's the most important wordin the dictionary?
Was I like, man, don't even knowwhere I'm at right now. You
know? And he's like, you know,perseverance. And he's like, I
want you to think about thatword and what it means to you.
And you come you come, nextflight ready to fight, you know,
ready to go.
And, you know, we're really goodfriends to this day. We talk

(33:03):
about that moment often, butyeah, I'm glad he told me that.
Gave me that that harsh realityand just to, you know, to have
tough skin and just to, youknow, fall down several times,
get up eight, get back in theaircraft.

Bryan (33:13):
What did you find when you thought about what
perseverance meant to you? Like,what what did you find when you
dug down for that?

Anthony (33:21):
Yeah. So I thought about a lot of more is I thought
about, you know, my grandfatherworked till he was I was like
high seventies, almost 80, likea pig farm, you know?

Bryan (33:28):
Wow.

Anthony (33:28):
He never complained one time in his life, man. You know?
And I just thought about stufflike that. Just that, I guess
the the roots part of it, peoplein Appalachia, just the whatever
you do, I'll always put one footin front of the other, you know,
and I'll always persevere. Youknow, my my grandfather and dad
both definitely instilled thatin me.
And, you know, I couldn'twouldn't be able to live with
myself if I'd quit that course.You know what I mean? Like, it's

(33:49):
it's not what you do in thislife that haunts you, it's what
you don't do, you know? Mhmm. Idefinitely wanted to to do that,
you know, to get through thisand make it.

Bryan (33:56):
Yeah. You have to leave it all on the table. In in
flight training, you need to beable to walk away with your head
held high and not with regret.And basically what that came
down to in my mind was you doyour best every single day and
it'll work out or it won't. Youcan't control that part.
But at least if it doesn't, whenyou walk away, you won't have a
head full of questions andregrets and wondering if you

(34:18):
could have if I had done this,if I had worked harder, could I
have, you know, could I havepassed? That's the last thing
you want to walk away with.

Anthony (34:24):
Yeah. Yeah. And it boils down to that sort of
describing that live a housemoney life. That's really what
I'm getting at there. Like likelike, take chances, you know, if
you want something, do it.
You know? If if it goes wrong,guess what? Get back in the
fight, you know? Yep. And like Isaid in the book, the aircraft
takes off against the wind, notwith it, you know?
Mhmm.

Bryan (34:41):
So another set of expressions you were given
include a favorite of mine, andthat is slow is smooth, smooth
is fast. However, this one wascoupled with a new one to me,
which is time is someone's life.So they seem at odds with one
another. So how do you squarethat circle?

Anthony (34:56):
It yeah. So, slow as smooth, smooth as fast is is
what I'm getting at with thatpart of it is like, there's
there's no fast hands in thecockpit. How often have yeah.
I've done this a lot where, youknow, I'm moving so fast with my
hands and whatever the task I'mdoing on the aircraft to where
I'm not thinking about the youknow? And then I end up causing
a, you know, a a bigger jam orwhatever the case may be, a
malfunction or something likethat.

(35:16):
And then I waste more time thanwhen if I would've just done it
right the first time by going alittle bit slower, being
methodical about it. And, youknow, that time could be, you
know, that you waste doing itwrong, could be someone's life
on the ground. What I'm reallygetting at here is like, there's
these different gunmalfunctions. And where an AC
one thirty, you know, gunshipgunner really makes his his or
his or her money would be, youknow, weapons analysis, know,

(35:38):
malfunction analysis,recognizing what you got, and
getting the gun back along asfast as you can. I I know that
sounds simple enough, but youcould imagine, like, you know,
these seals and green braids orsomething like that getting lit
up, you can't figure out what'swrong with your 40 mil.
You don't you don't wanna bethat guy.

Bryan (35:51):
So Mhmm.

Anthony (35:51):
We took a lot of pride in being that weapons expert of
the crew and to make the, youknow, most methodical safe
safest decision we can make.

Bryan (35:58):
Yeah. I can only imagine the pressure you're under when
you know lives are truly on theline. And with the the nature of
the work you folks do, whichwe'll get into, that is the case
a lot of the time.

Anthony (36:12):
Oh, yeah. And that you know, and it's not if it's when
you're gonna get a malfunction.It it happens. You know? And
I've had everything from theextractors, like, break off on
the 40 mil, you know, have to goright to the one zero five.
Stuff like that. You just, youknow, you learn and you get all
these tricks of the trade. Andlike like I said, repetition.
You get you do this so much towhere you can do it, you know,
blacked out at night, you know,do it in your sleep if you had

(36:32):
to.

Bryan (36:34):
So you learned over time that things were not always a
clear cut right and wrong inhigh pressure situations.
Instead, you had to learn tooperate in a gray area. Can you
tell us more about that?

Anthony (36:45):
Yeah. So there's a the gray area, like, especially
downrange, there's differentthings. As you know, it's
flying. There's warnings,cautions, and notes. And, you
know, a warning often, you know,we say it's written in written
in red as in someone's bloodbecause either someone got hurt
or someone died from from notabiding by that warning.
However, there's cautions where,like, cautions, you know, damage

(37:05):
could result in damage toequipment. And then basically,
like, you know, you're downrange. Like, if there's, let's
say for the one zero five,there's a firing limitation with
that. And, you know, basically,let's say there's some guys
getting pinned down and we'reshooting hot and heavy with the
the one zero five. Andbasically, with the one zero
five, you can shoot, you know,up to 10 rounds per minute, up
to a maximum expenditure of 30rounds.
And and then at that point, youhave to shoot three rounds per

(37:27):
minute until the gun tube coolsthe ambient temperature. Well,
okay, like, you know, my ambienttemp temperature may be
different than your ambienttemperature. So you know what I
mean? Like, sort of think likethink outside the box here, you
know, I put my, you know, letput my wrist to it and, you
know, basically, if it wasn'tabout to cook off, like, you you
sort of know that temperaturewhen you feel it, you know?
Yeah.
And basically, you know, stillget those rounds out for those

(37:48):
guys and, you know, save lives.

Bryan (37:49):
Yeah. Like, you know what the book says, but you also know
what's going on in real life.And it doesn't make sense to,
I'm gonna pay attention to this.I'm gonna listen to this rule
every single time no matter whatthe consequences are. And then
maybe the consequence ofignoring the rule is the gun
breaks, but the consequence ofignoring the or following the
rule could be people die.

Anthony (38:10):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. You know, it's it's
decisions that you have to makein in those moments.
And, you know, I think it'sknowing, like, the the black and
white limitations of of anaircraft Mhmm. And the systems,
and then the actual limitation.And, like, you're you're in that
area, you know, in between thosespaces.

Bryan (38:24):
Yeah. Can you quickly just describe for us the
different types of guns? Becausefor folks, like, have a a decent
idea when you say the one zerofive or the other various
weapons you've mentioned, butcan you just describe describe
them quickly so the listenerscan follow along?

Anthony (38:39):
Yeah. No problem. So so the h model gunship, I'll go
back to that one. What was coolabout that one was we had
telenomers like six nine andseven two, like, the same, you
know, skeletal, like, structuralof the aircraft is the same ones
that flew in Vietnam. And soback then, twenty ten, twenty
eleven, we had the 40 mil,Beaufort's cannon and the, one
zero five Howitzer, which what Imean by that is the 40 mil

(39:00):
Beaufort's is like anantiaircraft navy gun.

Bryan (39:02):
Yep.

Anthony (39:02):
So we're hanging it on the side of this, you know, this
cargo aircraft, the c onethirty, and then as well as the
one zero five, which is like a,you know, a tank cannon, if you
will. And, you know, you'reputting them both on the side of
this aircraft and doing lefthand turns all night, and that's
sort of where you get theadvantage of a gunship is loiter
time. You know, we can keep oureyes on the target, you know,
padlock everything, and justcontinuously get rounds out

(39:23):
until we winchester, which meansyou shoot all your ammo. Yep.
But yeah.
So in in a nutshell, that thatthat's what we had back then.
And and now you have this. It'smore like a bomb truck, be
honest with you. It's called theAC one thirty j Ghostrider. And
so you're looking at your 30 milBushmaster cannon up front, and
then you're you're now they havethe one zero five back on it, as
well as some, Griffins, whichis, basically airgun missiles in

(39:44):
the back and then small diameterbombs on the wings and a and a
couple other things.
But, yeah, it's it's definitelycame a long way. It's a bomb
truck, but, you know, at at theend of the day, that in my
opinion, is the the one zerofive is what makes that thing a
gunship. Mhmm.

Bryan (39:56):
Yeah. And and just to be clear, so the one zero five is
basically an artillery gun?

Anthony (40:01):
It it is. It's howitzer. Right? It's a
howitzer. Yeah.
So it's a a 45 pound, like, youknow, p g 44 round that's about
three feet long if you thinkabout it that way.

Bryan (40:10):
Wow.

Anthony (40:10):
You know, you're slinging what's a beautiful
thing to see is when we get the10 rounds from an hour or more,
like, sometimes we have, like,three guys on the right, three
gunners, three or four. And bythe time you're kicking one out
of the breech, the other guy'salready loading it and you're
closing it, slaving the armamentand boom, you know. Yeah. You
know, you could imagine a few ofthose things in the air at one
time coming down and, you know,raining on the enemy.

Bryan (40:30):
So now that we've talked a bit about some of the armament
you guys were dealing with, canwe, talk about your job as an
aerial gunner? What does thatjob consist of?

Anthony (40:38):
Yeah. Yeah. So you're you're primarily loading back
then, was just the one the onejob, the one alpha seven AFSC
air gunner, to be the weaponsexpert to load to load the, the
guns with the munitions, the the40 mil clips and the one zero
five forty five, you know, poundrounds. And then also that
weapon analysis, getting thoseguns back online. So when we
think, you know, trigger, backthen we had enlisted sensor

(41:01):
operators, which one was a IRand one was a TV operator.
Basically, they're the ones thatwe would consider like a
traditional, like, trigger. Withthat being said, there is like
a, you know, an arm safe,basically a consent switch for,
you know, almost every crewposition to where you could take
the gun away at a moment'snotice. It takes all these
different consent switches and,and then the then the aircraft

(41:22):
commanders call at the end,basically, you know, master arm
on and then, you know, gun goesboom at that point.

Bryan (41:27):
Okay. So basically, anyone at any time when the crew
can say like, I see something weshouldn't be shooting right now.
Boom. They hit the switch and itdisables it.

Anthony (41:37):
Yeah. Yeah. And and how that would sound would be like,
cease fire, cease fire, and thensomeone would you know, whoever
recognized what was, know,terribly wrong would Yeah. Would
save it.

Bryan (41:44):
Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. What is it like the first
time you load and fire anartillery gun in the air? Can
you tell us about thatexperience?

Anthony (41:53):
Yeah. I'll never forget that moment. You know, the the
pilot whips this perfect, like,three nautical mile orbit called
the the pilot and turn is whatit's referred as. And, you know,
this very tight circle where thepilots meet in the rate and
coincidence and, you you know,the guns in the trainable box
where we're not we're at a gooddepression angle where we could
shoot. And as the gun recoils,you know, up to 49 inches, and I

(42:14):
remember this, the aircraft, youknow, sort of, you know,
shifting like 10 degrees orsomething like that.
And I just remember like, man,this this is what I wanna do for
the rest of my life. You know?Like like, even in training at
that moment, I was like, this isthis is the coolest job in my
opinion in the air forces. Youknow? Like, you know, back then
there was movies liketransformer where it's really
not accurate in my opinion whereTyrese says, you know, Tyrese
says, make it rain.

Bryan (42:34):
Yeah.

Anthony (42:34):
Yeah. I got to to do the real thing, you know, and
this is before Modern Warfareand all that stuff. Loved every
second of it.

Bryan (42:40):
Yeah. And that's you said a three nautical mile turn?

Anthony (42:44):
Yeah. I mean, you know, it's just a

Bryan (42:45):
That's a pretty tight turn. Yeah. Yeah. It's a really
that's what you

Anthony (42:48):
call an overhead. Like, you know, the guys the JTACs
will call you in. Like, youknow, usually, you're you're not
showing your your your hand yet.Like, you'll be off where your
noise signature isn't isn'tthere where they can recognize
it. Right.
Because if they can't hear it,the enemy can't hear it. And
then, you know, usually, like,let's say they're doing a raid
like a breach. Right? Like,they'll breach the door, then
these guys will start runningout the back, and then they'll
be like, know, spectral six,when you're clearing your

(43:09):
overhead, and, you know, you'redoing a three mile orbit to get
your eyes on these these guysrunning away the enemy. And, you
know, it's it's sort of abeautiful thing.
Know, I was to say it, but younever get used to that, man,
that, you know, when they callyou in overhead and they give
you clear to engage and theenemy hears your props, like
they at that point, they runlike bees, man. They they know
it's over, you know. Yeah.

Bryan (43:28):
Well, the the Herc has such a distinctive engine sound
as well. Right? So they theyknow when it's a when it's a
gunship.

Anthony (43:37):
Yeah. We would all we would always joke with, like,
the regular c one thirty. It'slike not a dig against them.
We'd be like, hey. Yeah.
If you guys ever getting shotat, you know, just start doing
left hand turns and you'll bealright. You know? Stuff like
that.

Bryan (43:46):
Yeah. That's funny. So you received your aerial gunner
wings in December 2010. What wasthat moment like for you?

Anthony (43:55):
Yeah. So there there was a they lined us all up
wearing blues, and and at thispoint, I haven't even been on an
aircraft. It was, you know,basically just a basic aerial
gunner course. And there was aold 53 gunner that was our
instructor, and he's a reallysuper good dude. And, basically,
they put your wings on your yourleft, you know, your chest
there, and they give you alittle punch, you know, and not
nothing too bad like, you know,like some guys do, but, you

(44:17):
know, your blood wings orwhatnot.
And then, you know, I rememberthe last thing he said to me was
like, you know, dire, give themhell. You know, like, basically,
like like, do good. Mhmm. Youknow? And I was like, man, this
is the hands down the, you know,the coolest coolest job in the
world.

Bryan (44:29):
So did they actually blood wing you guys?

Anthony (44:32):
It it wasn't like like, he didn't tee off and hit me,
but he hit it hard enough towhere he'd leave too little, you
know, too little red blood markson it. You know what mean? Yeah.
Yeah. Like barely in there.

Bryan (44:41):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And our list any listeners who are
curious can look up what thatis. So let's talk.
We're gonna get into yourbeginning of your operational
your operational life, your yourbaptism of fire. You were now
part of Air Force SpecialOperation Command or AFSOC in
the sixteenth Special OperationsSquadron. What did this mean to

(45:04):
you?

Anthony (45:06):
Yeah. So the, basically, it meant I I was a
part of the, you know, the closeair support for for our nation's
best, you know. And what I meanby that is providing close air
support for the unconventionalforces, your your green braves,
your navy seals, your rangers.You know? And the whole reason
for being is is to make surethose those guys get home to
their family.
And I remember there's thisletter in the sixteenth. I I

(45:26):
used to look at it almost everyday, and there's this ranger
holding his baby girl, it sayssomething to the effect of like,
you know, thank you to thespecter in the gunship, you
know, because of you guys. I hadto go home and see my baby girl.
To me, that that was my alwaysmy why. My my reason for being
all those years was to get thoseguys home.
Mhmm.

Bryan (45:43):
So we've talked about the armament on the AC one thirty
Spectre gunship, which just incase listeners aren't somehow
aware is probably one of themost legendary aircraft of all
time. What is the role of theSpectre gunship?

Anthony (45:57):
Yeah. So the role the role, I guess, sort of mission
statement would be to provide atimely and precise close air
support for our nation'sunconventional forces. And, you
know, what I'm getting at thereis, again, with the, you know,
your SEALs, your Green Braves,your Rangers. Every now and
then, we would do a aconventional shoot with, the
eighty second or something likethat. But but, yeah, the the
role is

Bryan (46:14):
to to give those guys rounds out exactly when they
need it. And I think you alsomentioned in the book that you
guys do some intelligencesurveillance reconnaissance work
from time to time. Is thatright?

Anthony (46:25):
Yeah. And that and that that's a lot of it. Like, you
know, but, basically, that'syou're owning this eight hour
orbit. Think about it like that.Like, you'll, you know, get hit
a tanker midway, but, like, alot of times when nothing's
going on, you're you're keepingyour eyes on the you know, is
this normal pattern of life forthis village?
Or it's like, is this guy isthis guy moving tactically? Is
is this nefarious? You know? Soyou're painting that picture for
the JTAC who can't see directlyon the site with or the team

(46:48):
that has directly on the side ofwhat what's going on in the
village. They're they're aboutto breach that door.
Right? So Sort of painting thatpicture beforehand.

Bryan (46:54):
And you mentioned even that in your early days, you
flew sorties in Afghanistanwhere you didn't fire a shot.
Right?

Anthony (47:00):
Yeah. I I I remember some sorties, like, even we're
talking about prop noiseearlier. Like, submarines were
like, they're they told melater. But, basically, they got
to get some sleep, you know,because of the just the prop
noises we were talking about.And, you know, it means a lot to
those guys just to get a couplehours.
Like, you can hear it in theirvoice. Mhmm.

Bryan (47:17):
It must mean a lot to you folks in the air to know that
your presence is giving themthat peace and that these guys
who are really living a hardlife can have a some safety and
and shut their eyes.

Anthony (47:30):
Yeah. A 100%. You know? And if it was if it was us
flying for for four hours oreight hours just to just to give
those guys some shout out, wewe'd do that often. You know?
And

Bryan (47:39):
Yeah. It was all part of it. So acceptance in the
sixteenth special operationssquadron comes from your first
operational shoot. It's a riteof passage. Can you tell us
about your first operationalshoot?

Anthony (47:51):
Yeah. So we were, we landed from one operation, and
it was again, it was one ofthose ones where we'd shot just
the tweak rounds. We'll we'llcall it that. And, basically,
what that means is, you know,when you line your sights up on
a m four or whatever case maybe, you're you have to spend a
few rounds to, to line yoursights up. Right?
And we do the same thing withthe gunship, you know, and I was
loading the, the few rounds we'dshot in the one zero five before

(48:11):
that operation, which we haddone nothing. And then, you
know, we came back and landed. Iwas uploading those rounds back
and the pilot, he came back tothe, the gun deck. And it was it
was very weird because we don'tfly it in a day. Hardly ever has
to get waivers and stuff likethat.
And it was what we call pinkytime. So the summit's coming up.
And he's like, hey, guys,there's a, you know, a green

(48:31):
braid team that's that's pinneddown. I believe it was
Northeastern Afghanistan,somewhere there. And, he's like,
you know, who who's with me?
And we all on our own, you know,version set, our version of send
me. And, you know, next thingyou know, hour and a half, we're
over this op area, like, maybean hour or something like that.
But I looked down and I'mlooking out the there's these
two old 20 mil ports where the Hmodel had 20 mils on during

(48:53):
Vietnam and stuff like that.These square windows and I'm on
a bean bag. And I'm looking downand I had a, basically a
monocle, you know, MEG typelooking out.
And at this point, sun's comingup and I was like, okay, this is
pretty much worthless now. And,you know, so I see these bright
flashes, these RPGs, two ofthem. Boom. Boom. And what it
was was there was, ended upbeing three Taliban guys who,
had explosive packs on and theywere shooting RPGs at the green

(49:16):
berets and amongst other, othermissions, stuff like that.
And, you know, and at thatpoint, like you can hear the
intensity in the combatcontroller's voice and J tag,
know, you're, cleared to engage40 mils. I get back and, know,
we shot about 60 somethingrounds and, you know, you see
secondaries, all that stufflater. But, yeah, you know, lit
those three guys up. And Iremember thinking like, man, I
got to do, you know, more for mycountry in an hour and a half

(49:38):
than I've done my whole life.

Bryan (49:39):
Yeah. And when you say secondaries, you mean secondary
explosions. Right? Which just incase listeners aren't aware, is
like when you shoot, there's theexplosion from the round with
and a secondary would be like,let's say the guy's explosive
vest exploding as a result ofthat or something like that.

Anthony (49:53):
Exactly. Yeah. And they had those packs on him. We hit
him with the, the high explosiveincendiary rounds, so he just,
you know, burned to a crispafter the secondaries. And Yeah.
You know, you do the debrief andstuff later and you see all
that. But but, yeah, you know,it it was all about really not
really taking those lives, butas cliche as it is, it's about,
you know, making sure Mhmm. Thatour guys get home. Right? And,
you know, that I rememberthinking like that, Like, as far

(50:13):
as sense of relevance and mysense of purpose and identity,
man, like, this is like what Iwanna do for the rest of my
life.
I wanted to fly, you know, andand do these very uncommon,
unconventional things in thisgunship. What did it

Bryan (50:24):
feel like in that moment to pull the trigger, so to
speak, and know that you wereabout to take a human life?
Because that's a line you cannever uncross. Right?

Anthony (50:34):
Yeah. And it was one of those things in the in the very
brief moment before my lead gun,I never forget sort of the the
look and smile, know, like, hey.Something to effect, like, your
your life's gonna change foreverafter this moment. Like, this is
it, man. You know, you're you'regonna do it.
Right? And I was like, yeah, youknow. So I get him to 40 and,
you know, I remember just one ofthose first few rounds came out
and it was just like it was likebeing baptized by fire, I

(50:54):
suppose. Light's good way to putit and just born again, man, in
close air support, you know, inSpectre fashion. And Mhmm.
You know, back then I got backand there were they do this
thing where they shave your headwhen you got back sort of like a
to symbolize the re you know, torebirth. Right? And, know,
basically realize you got yourfirst, you know, enemy killed in
action. And but, yeah, it wasall part of it, man. I like I
said, it it was the best job Iever had, man.

(51:14):
It just that moment changed mylife forever.

Bryan (51:17):
Yeah. As the dust settled, how did you feel
afterward knowing what you'ddone?

Anthony (51:22):
So there was a lot of adrenaline. I remember that
night, like, still, you know,and you learn during the moment
to sort of like suppress it andlike just, you know, take a deep
breath and get through it.Right? But like, when it does
settles, I just remember I wasthe adrenaline was like almost
calm, but I was still wideawake. You know, I was exhausted
feeling almost.
And, you know, I'm just layingthere thinking like, you know,
man, I got to do like, this isawesome. You know, like, how

(51:44):
many people get to do this?Right? Like, this is the best
job in the world. I rememberthinking that.
But yeah, I couldn't sleep at

Bryan (51:49):
all that night. Yeah. I don't doubt that. Yeah.

Anthony (51:53):
Yeah.

Bryan (51:54):
Alright. So we're getting ready to wrap up part one here.
Before we do, we're gonna takethe time to ask you the three
questions we always ask ourguests. What is the one thing
you always did to try to stayready to do your job or still do
with your current job?

Anthony (52:07):
Yeah. So back then, there was a I talked about it in
the book there, but there's thispart in the old where we were at
in the old sixteen specialoperations squadron where you
walk through the doors to theflight line to go to your
aircraft to preflight it and flyin. It says, we who walk through
these portals stand tall. Andlike, no matter what I had going
on in my life at that moment,man, it was to me, it was more
important than like the NotreDame sign they all hit before

(52:29):
the football field goes youknow, the football team goes out
and says play like a champion.And it was in that moment, like,
no matter what I had going on inmy life, I'd I'd take a second.
I'd say, everything's gonna befine. Like, God's got it. Our
team's got it. Everything'sgonna be good. Just clear my
head and just aviate.
Mhmm.

Bryan (52:44):
Yeah. It's so important to go into your mission, whether
that's a training flight or anoperational flight, whatever it
may be, with a clear head,focused, ready, and just knowing
like, okay, this is what mattersright now. Like, whatever else
is going on, I'm gonna leavethat behind me for the next
hour, two hours, eight hours,however long your your sortie
is. And you just have to beabsolutely focused. In in

(53:07):
mission based aviation, in allaviation, but especially in
mission based aviation, you haveto have that focus.

Anthony (53:14):
A 100%. Yeah. Situational awareness, that's
the most powerful thing on abattlefield in my opinion,
whether you're on the ground inthe area, it'll keep you you and
your guys alive. You know?

Bryan (53:21):
Yep. Yep. Absolutely. What do you think makes a great
missions based aviator?

Anthony (53:28):
I would say definitely somebody who's probably more
type of a, I would say. And thenalso at the same time, you
there's a some humbleness thathappens with it, and you have to
be able to recognize your I'dsay the main thing is recognize
your your strength, but it'smore important to know your
weaknesses and work on thoseweaknesses. Mhmm. You know?
Because when your trainingfolder's getting filled out and
there's proficiency andknowledge part of that, I don't

(53:49):
know how you guys do it upthere, but there's that era, you
know, and you can sort of seeyour weaknesses and and study
those and just if you fall downand get back up, man, and you're
gonna take a beating becausethere's, you know, there's some
things they can't simulate andthey're they're in combat on the
aircraft.
Right? But, like, it's for allfor a reason. It's to to be a
better aviator.

Bryan (54:05):
Mhmm. And it's uncomfortable too. Right? Like,
looking at the areas you're notstrong in is not for not
everybody anyways, is not acomfortable feeling to focus in
on, like, where did I mess up?Where do I need to improve?
But you can embrace that andgrow comfort with it, and you'll
just be so much better for it.

Anthony (54:23):
A 100%. Yeah. And that repetition and just just face
that face that weakness and justjust work on it. You know?

Bryan (54:28):
Yeah. If someone approached you today saying they
wanted to be aircrew in theUSAF, what advice would you give
them? And maybe especially ifthey wanted to be an aerial
gunner.

Anthony (54:39):
I would say, you know, ask yourself if if if you're
ready for that ops tempo and,you know, if if you're ready if
you really wanna do that. Youknow, it's it's if you have any
doubts or whatever the case maybe, just, you know, then don't
do it, you know, because it'ssomething you definitely have to
be a 100%, like, in your youhave to your heart has to be in
this, your heart, mind, andsoul. Mhmm. You know? And and
those type of missions.

(55:00):
And when you're exhausted,tired, and you don't you're on
your, you know, fourteenthflight in a row in Afghanistan,
like, you know, that that's whenyour your your willpower and
your desire to be the combataviator kicks in.

Bryan (55:10):
Mhmm. Yeah. And when you are exhausted and you have to
pay attention to all themundane, it's not just the
exciting stuff. Right? It's allthose little things and
checklists and stuff that keepeverybody safe.
And you gotta be able to put asmuch detail and effort and
energy into, like you said, thatfourteenth flight as you did
that first flight when you weresuper psyched and it was your
your first trip over Afghanistanor whatever.

Anthony (55:32):
Oh, yeah. And and you have to realize that that it's
that it's always not like thisthis glory. You know? It's
always

Bryan (55:36):
Mhmm.

Anthony (55:37):
You know, fire not always fire and brim. So it's
you know, there is, like yousaid, a lot of nights where it's
just, you know, you're but I getI get it now that these are very
these are jobs that were like,if we're working, someone's
having a bad day or possiblyeven their worst day. And, like,
these jobs are something younever really wanna have to do.
Right? Like, I get that now.
But, like Mhmm. At the sametime, you know, if some one of
those guys' backs against thewall numbers caught it, that

(55:58):
gunship's coming, man. Like andthat's I wanted to be that type
of aviator. You know? Yeah.
Yeah.

Bryan (56:03):
Absolutely. So as we finish up this episode, can you
let listeners know where theycan contact you for speaking
engagements, collaborations, andthe best place to buy your book?

Anthony (56:15):
Yeah. Yeah. For no no problem. Speaking of
collaborations, the email [e-mail]. And
the the best place to buy mybook is if you can find it on
Amazon or Barnes and Noble,wherever they sell books.
And also Trademarker Media has a

Bryan (56:30):
a link I can send you as well. Awesome. And and Dyer, for
listeners, is spelled d y e r.Okay, Anthony, that's gonna wrap
up part one of our chat fortoday. Thank you so much for
sharing both your early days athome and in the Youssef with us
and also for that reallyinteresting description of kind
of your first baptism of fire.
I'm really, really excited tohear more about your operational

(56:51):
life and the ups and downs ofthat. So thank you again for
being here today.

Anthony (56:55):
Thanks for having me.

Bryan (56:56):
Okay. That wraps up part one of our chat with Anthony
Dyer, retired US Air Forceaerial gunner. Check us out next
week for part two of our chatwhere we will go through
Anthony's time in Afghanistanand Iraq as well as his time
after release and some of thechallenges he faced. Do you have
any questions or comments aboutanything you've heard in this

(57:17):
show? Would you or someone youknow make a great guest, or do
you have a great idea for ashow?
You can reach out to us at [e-mail] or
on all social media at at podpilot project. And be sure to
check out that social media forlots of great videos of our RCAF
and mission aviation aircraft.As always, we'd like to thank
you for tuning in and ask foryour help with the big three.

(57:38):
That's like and follow us onsocial media, share with your
friends, and follow and rate usfive stars wherever you get your
podcasts. That's all for now.
Thanks for listening. Keep theblue side up. See you. Engineer,
shut down all four. Shuttingdown all four engines.

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