In today’s lecture, Dr. Paula Pebsworth joined us from her home in Texas to give a lecture titled “You never know where life will take you: an interdisciplinary and unconventional path”.
This lecture was extra special for me, because Paula and I were grad students together at Kyoto University’s Primate Research Institute over a decade ago, both under the supervision of Mike Huffman. I’ve missed my friend over the intervening years, along with her family - who also play a feature role in her talk - so it was wonderful getting back together for this event.
Apart from the normal dose of nostalgia that such reunions can bring, I was reminded of what we lost when the Primate Research Institute was restructured in the spring of 2022 - a place where minds met and grew together, where budding and rooted primatologists alike were mixed and incubated and sent off to do amazing things wherever life after PRI took them.
And what an interesting life Paula has had, both before and after her time in Japan. Paula is an independent scientist who has had professional roles as a Research Coordinator for Wildcliff Nature Reserve in South Africa, a Post-doctoral Research Associate and adjunct associate at the National Institute of Adv. Studies in Bangalore, India, a Scientific Coordinator at Cloudbridge Nature Reserve in Costa Rica, and a head scientist for an environmental consulting firm in Saudi Arabia.
Through it all, she has worked toward tackling the monumental challenge of managing human-nonhuman primate conflict and coexistence, the topic she spends most of the lecture covering in tantalizing detail.
But would you imagine that she started out her professional career as a chemist testing wine in the California vineyards? It doesn’t seem obvious, but Paula manages to weave this background into her studies of antiparasite strategies and self-medication in chimpanzees and baboons.
And no, she wasn’t getting her subjects drunk on wine! But you’ll have to stay tuned to find out how it all makes sense in the career of this thoughtful and innovative primatologist.
Now, Paula is just about to pack up and head over to Japan herself in a few days, for an event where she’ll be speaking about human-nonhuman primate coexistence at Kyoto University. I can’t wait to meet up with her there and catch up.
Paula has also agreed to follow this lecture up with a proper conversation for the primateCast, so stay tuned for part two in the near future. I took a lot of notes during her lecture and have a lot of things to follow up on.
The PrimateCast is hosted and produced by Andrew MacIntosh. Artwork by Chris Martin. Music by Andre Goncalves.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Andrew MacIntosh (00:00):
Welcome to the Primate Cast Origins.
Today's origin story followsthe journey of Dr Paula
Pebsworth from wine chemist tohuman, non-human, primate,
conflict and coexistenceconsultant.
The thread line after the tuneEvolution, communication,
(00:25):
cognition, conservation,behavior primatology typically
primates become the monkey.
Well, hello everyone, and onceagain, glad to have you back in
the audience for this episode ofthe Primate Cast Origins, where
(00:47):
we hear from experts in thefield of primatology and beyond
about how they got started andbecame some of the most
influential folks around.
I'm your host, andrew McIntosh,from Kyoto University's
Wildlife Research Center, andthis episode is taken from our
international primatologylecture series Past, present and
Future Perspectives of thefield.
This is the brainchild of DrMichael Huffman and, like our
(01:08):
normal programming, is broughtto you by PsyCASP.
The main goal of the lectureseries is to share the origin
stories of experiencedpractitioners of primatology and
related fields.
To do that, mike Huffman'sinvited a revolving door of
renowned scientists to join uson the program and share their
own stories with us.
The Primate Cast Origins is ourway of sharing those stories
(01:28):
right here on the podcast.
Unlike our normal interviewformat, these lectures are being
done as part of our PsyCASPseminar in Science Communication
, which is aimed at gradstudents here in the Primatology
and Wildlife Science program atKyoto University.
So what you'll hear is alecture that was recorded in
Zoom and generally includesslides, so there are references
to visual aids that are notavailable in audio only format,
(01:51):
but for anyone wishing to seethe speakers presenting their
talks, we invite you to checkthose out on the PsyCASP TV
YouTube channel.
In today's lecture, dr PaulaPepsworth joined us from her
home in Texas to give a lecturetitled you Never Know when Life
Will Take you AnInterdisciplinary and
Unconventional Path.
This lecture was extra specialfor me because Paula and I were
(02:12):
grad students together at KyotoUniversity's Primate Research
Institute over a decade ago,both under the supervision of
Mike Huffman.
I missed my friend over theintervening years, along with
her family, who also play afeature role in her talk, so it
was wonderful getting backtogether for this event Now.
Apart from the normal dose ofnostalgia that often accompanies
such reunions, I was alsoreminded what we lost when the
(02:34):
Primate Research Institute wasrestructured in the spring of
2022.
It was a place where minds metand grew together, where budding
and rooted primatologists alikewere mixed together and
incubated and then sent off todo amazing things wherever life
after PRI took them.
And what an interesting lifePaula's had both before and
after her time in Japan.
(02:54):
Paula is an independentscientist who's had professional
roles as a research coordinatorfor Wild Cliff Nature Reserve
in South Africa, a postdoctoralresearch associate and adjunct
associate at the NationalInstitute of Advanced Studies in
Bangalore, india, a scientificcoordinator at Cloudbridge
Nature Reserve in Costa Rica andeven head scientist and team
leader for an environmentalconsulting firm in Saudi Arabia.
(03:16):
Most recently, but through itall, she's worked toward
tackling the monumentalchallenge of managing human and
non-human primate conflict andcoexistence the topic she's been
most of her lecture covering intantalizing detail.
But would you imagine that shestarted out her professional
career as a chemist testing winein the California vineyards?
It doesn't seem obvious, butPaula manages to weave this
(03:38):
background into her studies ofanti-parasite strategies and
self-medication in chimpanzeesand baboons.
And no, she wasn't getting hersubjects drunk on wine.
But you'll have to stay tunedto find out how it all makes
sense in the life and career ofthis thoughtful and innovative
primatologist.
Now Paula's just about to packup and head over to Japan
herself in a few days for anevent at Kilt University where
(04:00):
she's going to be speaking abouthuman, non-human primate
coexistence.
I can't wait to meet up withher after to catch up.
But Paula's also agreed tofollow this lecture up with a
proper conversation for theprimate cast.
So stay tuned after thislecture for part two in the near
future.
I took a lot of notes duringher lecture here and I've got a
lot of things to follow up on,but in the meantime, here's Mike
(04:22):
Hoffman, as always, introducingDr Paula Pebsworth to get us
started.
Michael Huffman (04:27):
Thanks, andrew.
Welcome Paula.
It's always nice to see we'reoften chatting on Zoom these
days from each from differentparts of the world as we travel
around and do things.
It's been a great many years,lots of fun work we've
collaborated on together inquite a lot of different places.
(04:49):
I've got to go to South Africafor the first time to visit
Paula and her family, which shewas doing her PhD work down
there.
But we actually started back waybefore that in Colorado.
We both have roots in Colorado,spent time there I was born
there and Paula spent a lot oftime there.
So we've kind of met indifferent parts of the world for
(05:12):
different scientific and justfun events.
So I'm really happy that Paulacan join us in this series.
I can only say it's about time.
It's the 23rd.
You could have been on thismuch earlier, but I think
traveling in different thingscame in and out of the plans.
(05:35):
But anyway, I'm very happy tointroduce you to the world, to
the PsyCASP, all the peoplearound this planet who will be
listening in today and learningfrom your stories and the work
that you've done.
Paula, before I go on too long,I'll hand it over to you.
Paula Pebsworth (05:58):
Thank you so much.
So first I want to thank theorganizers for the invitation
and particular Mike Huffman, whoI asked in the mid 1990s if he
could use a good field assistant.
A good deal of time has passedand on the left he's holding my
oldest, who is now 24.
On the ride he came to SouthAfrica, as he mentioned, and is
(06:18):
no doubt offering up a joke or apun.
We worked together in Uganda.
In South Africa, mike served asmy advisor when I was working
on my doctorate at KyotoUniversity's Primate Research
Institute, and while in Japan,most days would begin with
coffee and conversation with him.
My dad is on the top right.
(06:40):
He loved wildlife and he sharedhis love with me on the little
one below him through NationalGeographic magazines.
Several issues were alwayslying around, and I recall this
particular issue with JaneGoodall on the cover and
thinking to myself man, I'd liketo do that.
I didn't know anyone whostudied wildlife, let alone
(07:02):
primates, so I stuck that ideaaway.
This is a map showing areas ofthe world that have been
important to me.
I'm from the US and received mybachelor's from the University
of Iowa, which is in the star inthe middle, and afterwards I
moved to California that's onthe west coast and then moved to
(07:25):
upstate New York where Ireceived my master's from the
State University of New York.
My talk will discuss skills andabilities that I acquired when
I was younger and then laterused in my doctorate,
post-doctorate and independentresearch, because I've worked in
several countries.
I'll also discuss quality oflife, which affects one's
(07:46):
ability to do good research andthat country's willingness or
ability to co-exist withprimates.
After receiving my bachelor'sdegree in biology, I moved to
California.
Later I took a few classes inenology, which is the study of
winemaking.
Later I worked as a winechemist at two wineries in Napa
(08:09):
Valley and another one inAustralia.
I spent my days testing sugarand alcohol content in wine
tough job moving wine aroundpower washing stainless steel
tanks and working 15 plus hourdays during harvest.
This taught me about thestruggles of farmers, the
science behind crop productionand the hard work required to
(08:31):
produce an agricultural product.
I liked winemaking, but Ilonged to do something more
related to wildlife, so I took aposition conducting
environmental impact assessmentsfor plants be they rare and
endangered or alien, invasiveand animals.
We used a lot of variety oftools like quadrats and sherman
(08:53):
life traps.
I also worked in a project thatlooked at roosting preferences
in bats.
I learned how to use misnets,attach small transmitters to
bats and follow them using radiotelemetry.
I went back to get my mastersand, because of my chemistry
background, I worked on aproject that looked at heavy
(09:14):
metals in soil.
For over 60 years, farmersapplied the pesticide lead
arsenate to protect apples fromwhat was once called gypsy moths
.
Later, the trees were removedand housing developments were
planned.
My research sought to answerthe question where did the lead
(09:36):
and arsenate go?
Were these safe places to livehere?
I learned how to collect andprocess soil samples and how to
use several analyticalinstruments like atomic
absorption, spectroscopy andinductively coupled plasma.
I was careful to collect soilsamples around the apple tree
and realized that theconcentrations were highest
(09:57):
along the drip line.
Soil samples were taken atthree depths, so I could see
that lead concentrations werehighest at the surface, where
they were bound up by organicmatter.
The arsenic, on the other hand,was traveling and was highest
at lower soil levels.
I enjoy lab work, but I didn'twant to do only lab work.
(10:19):
My husband's job took us toItaly and while there, I had the
time to ponder what did I wantto do next.
I kept thinking aboutprimatology and I had read about
Pat Wright's work in Madagascar.
I decided to write her and askif I could volunteer in my time.
To my surprise, she said yes.
I spent a few months at RanaMofana following golden bamboo
(10:43):
lemurs and documented theirmovements and feeding behavior.
This was many years ago.
We slept in tents bathed inrivers and had no running water
or electricity.
Eating with the outside worldwasn't easy and the food was
basic.
I managed to pick up Giardia,and others came down with
dysentery and hepatitis.
(11:04):
It was here that I beganthinking about coexisting with
wildlife.
Madagascar is home to 15 generaof living lemurs and you can see
the map that's on your left and, as of 2023, there were more
than 30 million people living onthe island of Madagascar.
(11:25):
How will the needs of bothpeople and lemurs be met on an
island?
At this year's IPS meeting inMalaysia, I learned about some
amazing initiatives that aredesigned to help people, which,
in turn, helps lemurs, and inthis program, people can earn
conservation credits, so theyget credits for working in a
(11:49):
nursery, credits for plantingtrees, and those credits can, in
turn, be used to buy thingslike bicycles and sewing
machines and improve the qualityof their life.
Oops, I'm going to go back.
Bamboo lemurs eat a diet pieand cyanide and I was talking
with another researcher aboutdiet and health.
(12:11):
He recommended that I reach outto my cuffman as he was
studying sub-medication inchimpanzee disease.
I remain grateful to Pat and amglad that I had the courage to
write her, as in a letter, thiswas pre-email.
The next InternationalPrimatological Society Congress
will be held in Madagascar in2025.
I hope you have the opportunityto visit this amazing country
(12:35):
and that you'll also write topeople you admire and ask about
potential opportunities at theirsite.
So I wrote my cuffman and hetold me that he had a new site
in Uganda and if I could getfunding I could work with him in
Badongo.
I applied for and received aFulbright scholarship and came
to Uganda in 1998.
(12:56):
We looked at fecal parasites,diet, geology and behavior.
I had the pleasure of workingwith Joseph, jacob and Gusham
several of their amazing fieldassistants.
I grew to greatly appreciateGusham's encyclopedic knowledge
of chimpanzees he's the one atthe bottom right and with Sarah
(13:18):
Young I also investigated soileaten by pregnant women and what
property soil possesses In manyplaces in Africa.
You can see this picture that'sin the bottom.
You can find pregnancy clays atthe markets, and so we were
interested in learning moreabout pregnancy clays and about
the people that use them, usingcamera traps.
(13:41):
I looked for more information onchimpanzee geology At this
particular site.
When the soil is soft and moist, the chimpanzees dip their
fingers into the soil and lickit off.
They also suction upclay-infused water.
They create and use leafsponges to collect clay-infused
(14:02):
water and break off chunks ofsoil and either eat it there or
take it to go.
I believe age, class andreproductive status is important
, so we documented who came tothe geology sites.
As you can see, adult femalesand juveniles spend the most
time eating soil.
Interestingly, this is the samepatterns that we see in humans.
(14:27):
Using analytical equipment, Itested the soils to determine
particle size, which is thepercentage of sand, silt and
clay.
We also looked at the type ofclay, as well as various
minerals.
There is a huge difference inthe amount of sand present in
these soils.
I don't know about you, but ifyou've ever eaten any soil but
(14:49):
86% sand must feel reallyterrible in the mouth.
We also conducted tests todetermine whether these soils
could add soil or plantsecondary metabolites like
phenolics.
Here you can see that soil fromYbira, the bar on the far left,
does much better job than soilfrom the other two geology sites
(15:10):
on the reserve.
It's almost on par withpharmaceutical grade Marilinite.
When it comes to adsorbingphenolics, we also looked at
bioavailability of iron, a soilanalysis that uses a digestion
which mimics intestinalbiochemistry.
Here we had an interestingresult the soil that could
(15:35):
adsorb phenolics had very littlebioavailable iron.
However, three other soils hada surprising amount of
bioavailable iron.
These three geology sites areat the base of trees and we
suspect that tree exudatesexudes phytochemicals that
enhance iron bioavailability, orthat iron was more exchangeable
(15:59):
at these sites.
I wanted to know when given achoice, which soil would chimps
pick?
Would they pick the soil that'shigh in clay or the soil that's
high in iron?
So to answer this question, wedesigned a field experiment.
We created experimental stumpsand placed these two kinds of
(16:24):
soil inside.
We monitored the experimentswith camera traps.
The experiment was designed forchimps, but you can see from
the title that chimps weren'tthe test subjects.
When you begin an experiment inthe wild, you have no control
over who participates.
It didn't take a group of blackand white colobus long to find
(16:48):
the experiment.
We had placed approximatelyfive kilograms of the two
different types of soil in eachstump.
When I returned, the soil highin clay was completely empty and
the other untouched.
I added an additional fivekilograms of soil.
The next day it was empty again.
In short, they consumed 9.67kilograms of soil high in clay
(17:14):
in 3.4.33 hours.
In the computer, in the cameratrap videos, we can see
aggression.
Some individuals had lessaccess.
Younger ones were pushed away,excluded or chased.
Who would have thought thatthere would be so much
competition for soil?
While in Uganda, I always alsohad the opportunity to teach
(17:38):
field assistance how to testwater quality.
I also visited the localschools and markets to better
understand life in this part ofworld and met with farmers to
learn about various strategiesthat had been implemented to
reduce crop foraging.
Poexisting with wildlife inUganda is a struggle.
Animals leave the forest andforage on crops, in particular
(18:03):
corn, cassava beans, sugarcaneand mangoes.
On the other hand, people enterthe forest and set snares for
bush meat.
For the most part, people aretolerant of chimpanzees, but
they are not tolerant of thebones.
Tolerance is shaped by manyfactors.
How much we like an animal isan important one.
(18:23):
Several strategies have beentrialed to reduce conflict
guarding, early warning,detection, plant barriers,
trenches, lights, nets, livetraps to capture damaged causing
animals and several types ofsimple fences.
While not the target of snaresat one time, almost 15% of the
(18:44):
chimpanzees had a snare injury.
To decrease snare use insidethe forest, goats and vet care
were provided to people thatagreed to stop setting snares.
As I understand, despite thesestrategies, the struggles
continue.
Badongo is a wonderful fieldstation.
(19:05):
Each researcher has their ownroom, and a 55 gallon drum
filled with water is warmed,making for a much appreciated
shower at the end of the day.
Meals are basic.
Communication has vastlyimproved.
When I first came to Badongo, Iwould send Mike a fax asking
(19:25):
various questions and giving himupdates.
Two weeks later I would receivehis reply.
As of late, you can get emailand camp and even Skype.
Malaria is still a thing, socome with malaria prophylaxis.
In 1999, I became a mother andthree years later had a second
(19:46):
child.
Being a mom taught me atremendous amount about
development and behavior.
I like to think that it's mademe a more observant and a better
researcher as well.
I can't help but give outmothering advice, so there's a
bit of that in this talk as well.
I thought about siteconsiderations before having
(20:06):
children, but they become moreimportant once I considered
bringing my family to the field.
Quality of life is shaped by ithelps shape the quality of your
research.
Here are a few things youngresearchers might consider when
choosing a site.
I think about the field station, infrastructure, diseases that
(20:28):
are present, access to cleandrinking water, access to health
care, food, transportation,political stability and crime.
When my children were six andnine, I saw an ad on PIN, which
is the primate informationnetwork for a research
(20:48):
coordinator in South Africa at aprivate nature reserve.
My husband was just retiringand so I applied.
The reserve was owned by thelate Dr Ian Giddy and his wife
Jenny.
During my interview I asked ifmy family could come as well and
their answer was something likewhy not?
We sold our house, put ourbelongings in storage and we
(21:11):
moved to.
The Western Cape.
Reserve was home to Chetmababoons and people warned me
that I might not find them sointeresting after studying
chimpanzees.
On the contrary, I found themto be fascinating.
The reserve sits on top of ahuge clay deposit.
I soon learned that where roadcuts had been made, exposing
(21:31):
clay, the baboons ate it.
Ian wanted to put a GPS coloron one of the baboons.
So in addition to learningabout geography, diet and
parasites, I also learned abouttrapping, sedating, coloring and
spatial analyses.
I use these data for mydoctoral dissertation at PRI.
(21:53):
Using camera traps, I monitoredwho came to the geology sites
and how long they stayed.
I found the same trend as I didin Uganda.
Adult females and juvenilesspent the most time eating soil.
Because baboons have anexternal marker of pregnancy, I
could also look at reproductivestate.
The pregnant females spent moretime at the geology sites than
(22:17):
any other baboon, but the numberwasn't significantly more.
Of all the geology questions Ihad, this one still vexes me.
The soil that the baboons preferto eat is white, but there is
also lots of pink soil whichshould be high in iron.
With Sarah Young, we tested thesoil for bioavailability of
(22:40):
iron.
Here in this graph you can seethe solid line.
This is for oh go back, totaliron, and so for total iron.
This is the really strongdigestion.
The pink soil is high in totaliron, but then when we tested
for bioavailable iron, neitherthe white nor the pink soil had
(23:04):
much iron to offer.
Again, we looked at whether thesoil was able to absorb or
detoxify plant secondarycompounds.
In the soil they can, but it'snothing like what we found in
Uganda.
Interestingly, thenon-preferred soil was better at
detoxification it's higher inkaolinite and iron oxides, which
(23:28):
can adsorb toxins.
I like to think of soil as amultivitamin that's eaten for
different reasons by differentindividuals at different times
in their lives.
I analyzed thousands or hundredsof fecal samples to determine
whether parasites play a role inzoology.
To my surprise, every singlesample contained the parasite
(23:52):
tricaris.
Mike and I discussed parasitetransmission and he suggested
that maybe the baboons werepicking it up at the geophagy
sites.
I objected, seeing that I didnot see feces around the
geophagy sites.
Once I looked carefully, Ifound images of baboons with
their almost likely dirty handsand feet on the surfaces,
(24:17):
frequently eaten by the baboons.
With colleagues at theUniversity of Kwasilunital,
chris Appleton and ColleenArcher, we tested whether there
were parasites on the soilsurface.
To my horror there was.
I say horror because I hadtasted the soil and so had my
son.
The results weren't as bad as Iinitially thought.
(24:38):
We did find parasites, but mostdidn't contain larvae which
were capable of infection.
In the slide that's on theright, only B is infected.
Nonetheless, the baboons eatacacia seeds off the forest
floor and the soil containedlots of tricaris.
With my cofman, joanna Lambertand Sarah Young, we published an
(25:02):
updated geophagy review.
We identified 287 accounts ofgeophagy among 136 species,
adding 79 primate species to thelist of those considered in
prior reviews.
I'm certain that the numberwill continue to grow.
(25:24):
While in South Africa, I alsolearned a tremendous amount
about alien invasive species andtheir eradication.
In the early 1900s, peoplebrought several types of acacia
trees from Australia for woodfuel and for tannins, which are
used for tanning leather.
In a few decades, these acaciaswere out, competing native
(25:47):
plants and using a tremendousamount of water.
Acacia marinesi, found on thereserve, is considered one of
the 100 worst alien invasiveplants worldwide.
In an effort to protect theamazing plants that are part of
the Cape Veristic Kingdom, thegovernment began a project to
eradicate several alien invasivespecies.
(26:09):
Interestingly, acacia marinesialso made up 39% of the baboon's
diet, and this important foodresource was being removed.
I also learned about baboonshenanigans.
Baboons were constantly tryingto get into the cars, houses and
they loved taking things likemy son's rubber boots and
(26:31):
chewing the nail caps off theroof, which later caused the
roof to leak.
I also had the pleasure ofworking with six field
assistants.
I learned about baboonsanctuaries and why there was a
need for them.
After the end of my study Ibegan noticing that the baboons
were moving further and furtheraway from the reserve and not
(26:52):
using their usual sleeping sites.
I was grateful for the VHF partof the collar as we were
struggling to find this hugetroop of 115.
One day we tracked them to anarea really far from the reserve
.
They had found a huge stand ofpristine acacia marinesi and
(27:12):
heavily foraging here.
As it was far from a rockyoutcrop, they began to sleep in
these trees.
This is highly unusual forchakma baboons.
Once the collar came off, Ibegan exploring their movements.
I wanted to look at their homerange and how it had changed
(27:33):
over time.
This sent me down a rabbit hole.
So many ways to estimate homerange.
I'm glad that I have anunderstanding of GIS and
encourage all students to havesome basic GIS skills.
What about human wildlifeconflict in South Africa?
Baboons, porcupines, jackals,leopards, otters and other
(27:55):
animals are in conflict withpeople.
My neighbor was a dairy farmerand he took the time to explain
how it was to live and work withbaboons.
Baboons eat crops that he'dplanted for his cattle.
They ate pelletized cattle foodand they entered his milking
parlor looking for food when thecows were being milked.
He had tried many techniques tomove them off his property.
(28:18):
Scarecrows and copain cannonswere just a few.
In the western Cape Cape nature, the governing body allows
farmers to shoot animals thatthey deem are problematic.
One unfortunate consequence isthat when a mother with an
infant is shot, if the infantdoesn't die, people don't have
(28:39):
the heart to kill the infant,and the infant may end up at a
baboon sanctuary.
There was one sanctuary closeby and I had the pleasure of
getting to know people whoselife work was caring and
advocating for baboons and otherwildlife.
People sometimes think that ifyou study primates, the only
avenue is academics, but that'snot true.
(29:00):
In addition to academia, youcould also work in biomedical
research in a captive settinglike zoos and or sanctuaries.
While in South Africa, Ilearned that research was easier
when you have potable water, nomalaria and access to good
health care and a comfortablebed.
South Africa struggles to meettheir electricity needs and with
(29:24):
crime.
Nonetheless, it is a gorgeouscountry.
My family and I left SouthAfrica and headed for Japan.
Here I worked with Mike Huffmanand his then student, andrew
McIntosh, who was just wrappingup his doctorate here was
tremendously helpful.
He taught me how to analyzefecal parasites, use R and was a
(29:46):
friend to my son, who alsoplayed guitar While at PRI.
I also had the opportunity tolearn about different primate
research-related projects.
It was really fun.
Chris Martin was at PRI at thesame time and I got to go into
his lab and see how he conductedhis experiments with the
chimpanzees.
(30:06):
For a theory of mind, we lovedliving in Japan, as it is safe,
has dependable publictransportation, excellent health
care, clean drinking water,tasty food and jiggly studio.
While here, abigail, my oldest,attended school.
It was a wonderful opportunityto learn about Japanese
(30:28):
education and culture.
Regarding human wildlifeconflict, japan has invested a
lot of time and effort tocoexist with wildlife, but it
remains a challenge.
In addition to monkeys, bears,deer and wild boar are a few
animals that are in conflictwith people.
(30:48):
In the 1950s, japan openedmonkey parks as a strategy to
reduce human conflict.
At one time, there were morethan 30 monkey parks, but as of
2018, only 10 remain.
Much effort has been made tocreate affordable electric
fences, habitat modification andeven robotics.
(31:11):
I love the idea of thiswolf-like robot that can scare
off animals from entering cropfields.
Next I had the chance to do apost-doctorate in India with
Professor Sindhu Radhakrishna.
With three wonderful studentswe trialed physical, auditory,
(31:32):
chemical and psychologicaldeterrence.
Some techniques were far moreeffective than others.
We learned about people'sperceptions of monkeys and
conducted field trials innorthern India to reduce crop
foraging.
We tried four kinds of physicaldeterrence.
(31:54):
On the far left you can seeit's a jute rope that's coated
with engine waste oil andcovered in chili powder and in
the middle is a sorry fence.
This is predominantly used insouthern India.
It's just sorry sewn together.
And then on the far right thisis green garden netting.
We initially just used it byitself and then when the monkeys
(32:18):
started to climb up the post,we attached thorny branches.
And we also had a neighbor thathad a brick wall.
And that was the fourth one.
We trialed three different kindsof auditory deterrence.
This is called in the south alocal gun and it's basically
made out of PVC pipe.
(32:38):
The little barrel comes off andyou spray deodorant or body
spray into the chamber, put inpaper, put the barrel back on
and stones and then you can seethe little igniter at the far
end and it makes a huge noise.
But like all other auditorydeterrence, they need to be used
(33:00):
sparingly because monkeys haveto wait to them very quickly.
We also tried bio acoustics andthey were an absolute bust.
But I think that these animalsare very used to human noises.
And the last one was in healthor sonic device, and I want to
just talk a little bit aboutthat.
(33:20):
Why we decided to try it was Ihad heard about a professor at
the University of Chandigarh,which is also in northern India,
and the resys macaques weregetting into the dormitories and
also into the pharmacy, and sowhat he tried was ultrasound and
(33:42):
it absolutely worked, butunfortunately it gave the
students headaches and the staffheadaches, and so he had to
discontinue using it.
To me it seemed like theperfect opportunity to try it in
a rural area where peopleweren't around.
We also tried repellents, andwe tried several of them, like
(34:05):
neem oil again the engine wasteoil and chili powder.
And here Rupesh is makingdeterrent made of rotting eggs
and lemons, and it was soincredibly foul we spread it at
the front of our crops and themonkeys, you know, could not
have cared less.
We'd also read that you cantake dung and put chilies in
(34:31):
them and dry them they call themdone briquettes and then burn
them when wildlife is around andit's supposed to be irritating
and the smoke will move them off.
It is incredibly irritating tothe eyes.
We didn't have any, thewildlife didn't seem to notice,
but it absolutely bothered thetwo students I worked with.
(34:55):
We also tried two types ofpsychological deterrence Drones
and mirrors.
I had read that drones wereeffective against elephants, so
we tried them on Reese'smacaques and they actually seem
to work.
I was only able to bring areally lightweight drone, but I
would love if somebody tried itwith like a heavier duty drone,
(35:17):
just to see how effective it isin other parts of the world.
And the other thing I had heardabout was that they did monkeys
don't recognize themselves inmirrors and it can be used to
just mirrors can be used todiscourage animals from entering
an area.
We tried placing mirrors on topof walls that the monkeys moved
(35:41):
along and at the edge of thecornfields, and this is a little
video that I captured.
So what we observed was likewhat I've heard other animals do
when given a mirror Wait for it.
They they like to look at partsof their body that are not
(36:07):
easily observed.
So this was not the response Iwas expecting, but it's really
interesting nonetheless.
Cindy and I wrote two papersbased on the responses of close
to 800 people.
We found that choice ofmitigation strategy was related
(36:28):
to religion, education andconflict history, but
surprisingly, not occupation.
A small percentage ofrespondents recommended monkey
culling as a mitigation strategy, but the majority preferred
that government authorities usetranslocation or sterilization
as a mitigation measure.
In a second paper we tried todetermine what determines
(36:52):
people's willingness to sharespace with monkeys.
We suggest that tangible costs,ie financial losses from
primate depredation, primarilydrive people's stated tolerance
for primate presence.
Intangible benefits fromprimates, like their ecological
existence, sentience andreligious values, also
(37:15):
critically affect attitudestowards existence.
When looking at costs andbenefits of shared space with
monkeys, it's not surprisingthat the more often monkeys
visit, the more likely they areto damage crops, damage property
and take food.
We also found that 80% ofpeople found that monkeys had a
(37:37):
right to exist.
Religious value was less thanexpected.
The last strategy I want todiscuss is condition-taste
diversion and before I begin Iwant to thank Dr Deborah
Forthman-Quick for helping me atremendous amount to better
understand kind of thiscomplicated phenomenon.
Condition-taste diversion is apowerful and lasting form of
(38:03):
learning that converts a highlypreferred food taste into a
disgusting stimulus.
Some form of gastrointestinalillness is associated with the
taste of food.
An aversion is created when theoffensive food is avoided.
After recovery from illness,condition-taste diversions can
(38:25):
be created artificially usingdrugs that have a side effect of
extreme nausea.
These compounds must beundetectable.
They must be tasteless andodorless.
It doesn't matter what the fooditem looks like, only what it
tastes like.
It doesn't matter where thetreated food item is placed,
(38:46):
only that the entire dose isconsumed.
Homogeneous foods are ideal andonly try to establish one food
aversion at a time.
There are three main types ofaversions.
A weaker version animals.
They still eat this preferredfood, but they eat it in a slow
(39:08):
manner.
They might sniff it, manipulateit, love, stare at eating with
retracted lips.
A moderate animals take morethan 15 minutes to eat a
preferred food.
And a stronger version is whenanimals refuse to eat a
preferred food and may even showsome uneasiness while near the
(39:29):
food.
So we had the opportunity to dosome captive studies at a
sterilization center before theresys macaques were sterilized,
and how that the experimentwould go is we would identify a
food and the drug that we wantedto use and the dosage is based
(39:51):
on their weight.
We would offer a treated baiton one day and then the
following day we would offerthem again a treated bait and if
the bait was eaten, we knewthat no CTA had been created.
If the bait was refused, thefollowing day we offered an
(40:11):
untreated bait and then again wecould see what strength of
aversion did we create.
If it was weak, we knew theywould eat it right away, but
they would eat it in a kind of adisgusted manner.
If they ate it after 15 minutes, it was moderate, and if the
bait was never eaten, we knewwe'd gotten a strong CTA.
(40:31):
So here I want to just show youa short video.
So this is the day that we'reoffering the.
We're offering an untreatedbanana.
So there's no compound on thisand you can see he's smelling it
(40:51):
, thinking about it, sets itdown, even gives it a little pat
, and then he turns his bodyaway from it.
So in my book that is a strongaversion.
Our findings were published inthis paper.
Two of the four drugs couldcreate a condition-taster
(41:15):
version estradiol andthiamindazole.
The best drug was estradiolThiamindazole required a lot
more compound and it was harderto conceal.
The best candidates to workwith were juveniles.
Despite the fact that it'scomplicated, I think the
strategy holds a lot of promise.
(41:37):
The effects can be lasting, noequipment is required after the
fact, it doesn't require humanvigilance and to avoid that food
item is self-imposed.
So toward the end of ourproject, our corn was looking
absolutely amazing, and then thewind came and then the pests
(42:04):
came.
First it was some sort of asoil nematode, and then
something else that ate the corn.
And then the monkeys came andevery day they were starting to
eat the corn.
And again I have a renewedappreciation for the challenge
of farming.
I loved my year in India andhad the privilege of learning
(42:27):
about their culture, religion,traditions and human-premise
conflict.
I loved their food worldheritage sites and, while slower
and less dependable than topans, made my way around India
using public transportation.
Regarding human-primateconflict, india is home to 14
(42:47):
species of non-human primates.
We asked people how they feltabout rhesus macaques, hanaman
langours, bonnet macaques andlion-tailed macaques.
This was the most disliked,having the highest costs and the
lowest benefits.
I believe how fond we are of aspecies.
Again, it shapes ourwillingness to live with them.
(43:10):
But, to be clear, of the fourmonkeys, rhesus macaques are the
most challenging.
They will take valuable itemslike your wallet, glasses and
smartphone and then barter withyou for their return.
People complain about monkeys,but approximately 50% of farmers
don't even try to reduce cropforaging with the simplest of
(43:33):
strategies.
The G20 summit was recentlyheld in Delhi.
To discourage rhesus macaquesfrom entering the summit,
cardboard cutouts of hanamanlangours were placed around the
building.
I don't know if they weresuccessful, but I admire their
creativity and out-of-the-boxthinking.
(43:58):
Most recently, I had theopportunity to work as a
consultant in the kingdom ofSaudi Arabia.
Amid El Bouq, pictured on theleft, is their best-known
primatologist and I had thepleasure of working with him on
a Hamidryas baboon project.
He worked on a previous studyin the late 1980s that estimated
population distribution anddensity.
(44:19):
He also interviewed people tounderstand their interactions
with baboons.
The 2022 study, which Icoordinated, collected
comparable data so the resultscould be compared.
In addition to populationestimation, we also looked at
variation in spatial ecologybetween urban and wild
(44:42):
populations.
I put my collaring skills togood use, as we call our 10
baboons to better understandtheir spatial ecology.
Saudi has introduced laws andfines to reduce provisioning of
human food waste which has drawnbaboons into their cities.
With other experts, werecommended additional
strategies to reduce conflict,to include sterilization.
(45:07):
I once thought that Saudi Arabiawas flat and had lots of sand
and camels.
While that is true, in someparts of the country, it's also
incredibly steep.
When thinking about gatheringdata, topography and climate
must be considered.
Saudi has no crime and littlepublic transportation, but lots
(45:27):
of flights from one side of thecountry to the other.
I am grateful for having hadthe opportunity to work with
Al-Bogh, so this is where I comefull circle.
As I told you, when I wasyounger I studied enology, which
is winemaking, botany,chemistry, spatial ecology,
(45:49):
ethylogy and pedology, which issoil science.
I had no idea that studyingsoil for my masters would be
helpful to my doctorate, but itabsolutely was.
Nor did I realize that workingas a wine chemist would give me
insight during my postdoc and behelpful to potential consulting
work.
(46:09):
Here you can see how I useknowledge from various subjects
for my doctorate, postdoctorateand current independent research
.
You might wonder if I shouldhave been more focused.
I am glad that I wasn't.
There's a podcast I really lovecalled Allergies with Ali Ward.
(46:29):
She interviewed Dr Lee Burke,who studies the science of
laughter.
He had the following to saydon't ever think you're so
diverse that it doesn't pay off.
It certainly does, because youget to see and think from
different perspectives.
I started with degrees inpsychology and sociology, and on
(46:49):
and on.
Then I stumbled intopsychoneuroimmunology.
I realized how everything wasintertwined, interwoven and
interrelated.
To Dr Burke I would say that Iwholeheartedly agree.
I think that having a diversebackground has been an advantage
(47:10):
and has allowed me to conductresearch in many parts of the
world on a variety of topics.
Now some final mom thoughts.
Advice to young people outthere Choose your site carefully
.
I talked about the pros andcons of the different sites I've
(47:30):
been at.
I also recommend that youchoose your collaborators
carefully.
Get out of your comfort zoneand learn new skills and
abilities when opportunitiespresent themselves.
You won't regret the things youdid, but will regret the things
you didn't have the courage totry.
Human wildlife, conflict willcontinue to increase and
(47:51):
requires creative solutions.
Just I want to thank a fewpeople who have helped me along
my way.
While primatologists haveabsolutely shaped my path, it
has been greatly influenced bypeople outside of it.
Dr Herb Brunkhorst was my highschool biology teacher, who gave
me a love of learning and ofbiology.
(48:12):
Dr Jenny Giddy I mentioned,helped me come to South Africa
and then to Costa Rica.
Dr Eugene Spasiani was myprimate of my parasitology
professor at the University ofIowa, who I learned a tremendous
amount from.
Bob Pakota was the first winerythat I worked at.
(48:33):
He taught me a lot aboutgrowing things and the science
of taste.
Dr Fred Provenza, I met at theUniversity of at Utah State
University and has just been anamazing friend to me over the
years and is someone who reallysees the big picture.
And Dr Sarah Young, who taughtme a lot about methodology and
(48:58):
about the study of soil.
And thank you very much.
Welcome to the Primate Cast Origins.
Today's origin story followsthe journey of Dr Paula
Pebsworth from wine chemist tohuman, non-human, primate,
conflict and coexistenceconsultant.
The thread line after the tuneEvolution, communication,
(00:25):
cognition, conservation,behavior primatology typically
primates become the monkey.
Well, hello everyone, and onceagain, glad to have you back in
the audience for this episode ofthe Primate Cast Origins, where
(00:47):
we hear from experts in thefield of primatology and beyond
about how they got started andbecame some of the most
influential folks around.
I'm your host, andrew McIntosh,from Kyoto University's
Wildlife Research Center, andthis episode is taken from our
international primatologylecture series Past, present and
Future Perspectives of thefield.
This is the brainchild of DrMichael Huffman and, like our
(01:08):
normal programming, is broughtto you by PsyCASP.
The main goal of the lectureseries is to share the origin
stories of experiencedpractitioners of primatology and
related fields.
To do that, mike Huffman'sinvited a revolving door of
renowned scientists to join uson the program and share their
own stories with us.
The Primate Cast Origins is ourway of sharing those stories
(01:28):
right here on the podcast.
Unlike our normal interviewformat, these lectures are being
done as part of our PsyCASPseminar in Science Communication
, which is aimed at gradstudents here in the Primatology
and Wildlife Science program atKyoto University.
So what you'll hear is alecture that was recorded in
Zoom and generally includesslides, so there are references
to visual aids that are notavailable in audio only format,
(01:51):
but for anyone wishing to seethe speakers presenting their
talks, we invite you to checkthose out on the PsyCASP TV
YouTube channel.
In today's lecture, dr PaulaPepsworth joined us from her
home in Texas to give a lecturetitled you Never Know when Life
Will Take you AnInterdisciplinary and
Unconventional Path.
This lecture was extra specialfor me because Paula and I were
(02:12):
grad students together at KyotoUniversity's Primate Research
Institute over a decade ago,both under the supervision of
Mike Huffman.
I missed my friend over theintervening years, along with
her family, who also play afeature role in her talk, so it
was wonderful getting backtogether for this event Now.
Apart from the normal dose ofnostalgia that often accompanies
such reunions, I was alsoreminded what we lost when the
(02:34):
Primate Research Institute wasrestructured in the spring of
2022.
It was a place where minds metand grew together, where budding
and rooted primatologists alikewere mixed together and
incubated and then sent off todo amazing things wherever life
after PRI took them.
And what an interesting lifePaula's had both before and
after her time in Japan.
(02:54):
Paula is an independentscientist who's had professional
roles as a research coordinatorfor Wild Cliff Nature Reserve
in South Africa, a postdoctoralresearch associate and adjunct
associate at the NationalInstitute of Advanced Studies in
Bangalore, india, a scientificcoordinator at Cloudbridge
Nature Reserve in Costa Rica andeven head scientist and team
leader for an environmentalconsulting firm in Saudi Arabia.
(03:16):
Most recently, but through itall, she's worked toward
tackling the monumentalchallenge of managing human and
non-human primate conflict andcoexistence the topic she's been
most of her lecture covering intantalizing detail.
But would you imagine that shestarted out her professional
career as a chemist testing winein the California vineyards?
It doesn't seem obvious, butPaula manages to weave this
(03:38):
background into her studies ofanti-parasite strategies and
self-medication in chimpanzeesand baboons.
And no, she wasn't getting hersubjects drunk on wine.
But you'll have to stay tunedto find out how it all makes
sense in the life and career ofthis thoughtful and innovative
primatologist.
Now Paula's just about to packup and head over to Japan
herself in a few days for anevent at Kilt University where
(04:00):
she's going to be speaking abouthuman, non-human primate
coexistence.
I can't wait to meet up withher after to catch up.
But Paula's also agreed tofollow this lecture up with a
proper conversation for theprimate cast.
So stay tuned after thislecture for part two in the near
future.
I took a lot of notes duringher lecture here and I've got a
lot of things to follow up on,but in the meantime, here's Mike
(04:22):
Hoffman, as always, introducingDr Paula Pebsworth to get us
started.
Michael Huffman (04:27):
Thanks, andrew.
Welcome Paula.
It's always nice to see we'reoften chatting on Zoom these
days from each from differentparts of the world as we travel
around and do things.
It's been a great many years,lots of fun work we've
collaborated on together inquite a lot of different places.
(04:49):
I've got to go to South Africafor the first time to visit
Paula and her family, which shewas doing her PhD work down
there.
But we actually started back waybefore that in Colorado.
We both have roots in Colorado,spent time there I was born
there and Paula spent a lot oftime there.
So we've kind of met indifferent parts of the world for
(05:12):
different scientific and justfun events.
So I'm really happy that Paulacan join us in this series.
I can only say it's about time.
It's the 23rd.
You could have been on thismuch earlier, but I think
traveling in different thingscame in and out of the plans.
(05:35):
But anyway, I'm very happy tointroduce you to the world, to
the PsyCASP, all the peoplearound this planet who will be
listening in today and learningfrom your stories and the work
that you've done.
Paula, before I go on too long,I'll hand it over to you.
Paula Pebsworth (05:58):
Thank you so much.
So first I want to thank theorganizers for the invitation
and particular Mike Huffman, whoI asked in the mid 1990s if he
could use a good field assistant.
A good deal of time has passedand on the left he's holding my
oldest, who is now 24.
On the ride he came to SouthAfrica, as he mentioned, and is
(06:18):
no doubt offering up a joke or apun.
We worked together in Uganda.
In South Africa, mike served asmy advisor when I was working
on my doctorate at KyotoUniversity's Primate Research
Institute, and while in Japan,most days would begin with
coffee and conversation with him.
My dad is on the top right.
(06:40):
He loved wildlife and he sharedhis love with me on the little
one below him through NationalGeographic magazines.
Several issues were alwayslying around, and I recall this
particular issue with JaneGoodall on the cover and
thinking to myself man, I'd liketo do that.
I didn't know anyone whostudied wildlife, let alone
(07:02):
primates, so I stuck that ideaaway.
This is a map showing areas ofthe world that have been
important to me.
I'm from the US and received mybachelor's from the University
of Iowa, which is in the star inthe middle, and afterwards I
moved to California that's onthe west coast and then moved to
(07:25):
upstate New York where Ireceived my master's from the
State University of New York.
My talk will discuss skills andabilities that I acquired when
I was younger and then laterused in my doctorate,
post-doctorate and independentresearch, because I've worked in
several countries.
I'll also discuss quality oflife, which affects one's
(07:46):
ability to do good research andthat country's willingness or
ability to co-exist withprimates.
After receiving my bachelor'sdegree in biology, I moved to
California.
Later I took a few classes inenology, which is the study of
winemaking.
Later I worked as a winechemist at two wineries in Napa
(08:09):
Valley and another one inAustralia.
I spent my days testing sugarand alcohol content in wine
tough job moving wine aroundpower washing stainless steel
tanks and working 15 plus hourdays during harvest.
This taught me about thestruggles of farmers, the
science behind crop productionand the hard work required to
(08:31):
produce an agricultural product.
I liked winemaking, but Ilonged to do something more
related to wildlife, so I took aposition conducting
environmental impact assessmentsfor plants be they rare and
endangered or alien, invasiveand animals.
We used a lot of variety oftools like quadrats and sherman
(08:53):
life traps.
I also worked in a project thatlooked at roosting preferences
in bats.
I learned how to use misnets,attach small transmitters to
bats and follow them using radiotelemetry.
I went back to get my mastersand, because of my chemistry
background, I worked on aproject that looked at heavy
(09:14):
metals in soil.
For over 60 years, farmersapplied the pesticide lead
arsenate to protect apples fromwhat was once called gypsy moths
.
Later, the trees were removedand housing developments were
planned.
My research sought to answerthe question where did the lead
(09:36):
and arsenate go?
Were these safe places to livehere?
I learned how to collect andprocess soil samples and how to
use several analyticalinstruments like atomic
absorption, spectroscopy andinductively coupled plasma.
I was careful to collect soilsamples around the apple tree
and realized that theconcentrations were highest
(09:57):
along the drip line.
Soil samples were taken atthree depths, so I could see
that lead concentrations werehighest at the surface, where
they were bound up by organicmatter.
The arsenic, on the other hand,was traveling and was highest
at lower soil levels.
I enjoy lab work, but I didn'twant to do only lab work.
(10:19):
My husband's job took us toItaly and while there, I had the
time to ponder what did I wantto do next.
I kept thinking aboutprimatology and I had read about
Pat Wright's work in Madagascar.
I decided to write her and askif I could volunteer in my time.
To my surprise, she said yes.
I spent a few months at RanaMofana following golden bamboo
(10:43):
lemurs and documented theirmovements and feeding behavior.
This was many years ago.
We slept in tents bathed inrivers and had no running water
or electricity.
Eating with the outside worldwasn't easy and the food was
basic.
I managed to pick up Giardia,and others came down with
dysentery and hepatitis.
(11:04):
It was here that I beganthinking about coexisting with
wildlife.
Madagascar is home to 15 generaof living lemurs and you can see
the map that's on your left and, as of 2023, there were more
than 30 million people living onthe island of Madagascar.
(11:25):
How will the needs of bothpeople and lemurs be met on an
island?
At this year's IPS meeting inMalaysia, I learned about some
amazing initiatives that aredesigned to help people, which,
in turn, helps lemurs, and inthis program, people can earn
conservation credits, so theyget credits for working in a
(11:49):
nursery, credits for plantingtrees, and those credits can, in
turn, be used to buy thingslike bicycles and sewing
machines and improve the qualityof their life.
Oops, I'm going to go back.
Bamboo lemurs eat a diet pieand cyanide and I was talking
with another researcher aboutdiet and health.
(12:11):
He recommended that I reach outto my cuffman as he was
studying sub-medication inchimpanzee disease.
I remain grateful to Pat and amglad that I had the courage to
write her, as in a letter, thiswas pre-email.
The next InternationalPrimatological Society Congress
will be held in Madagascar in2025.
I hope you have the opportunityto visit this amazing country
(12:35):
and that you'll also write topeople you admire and ask about
potential opportunities at theirsite.
So I wrote my cuffman and hetold me that he had a new site
in Uganda and if I could getfunding I could work with him in
Badongo.
I applied for and received aFulbright scholarship and came
to Uganda in 1998.
(12:56):
We looked at fecal parasites,diet, geology and behavior.
I had the pleasure of workingwith Joseph, jacob and Gusham
several of their amazing fieldassistants.
I grew to greatly appreciateGusham's encyclopedic knowledge
of chimpanzees he's the one atthe bottom right and with Sarah
(13:18):
Young I also investigated soileaten by pregnant women and what
property soil possesses In manyplaces in Africa.
You can see this picture that'sin the bottom.
You can find pregnancy clays atthe markets, and so we were
interested in learning moreabout pregnancy clays and about
the people that use them, usingcamera traps.
(13:41):
I looked for more information onchimpanzee geology At this
particular site.
When the soil is soft and moist, the chimpanzees dip their
fingers into the soil and lickit off.
They also suction upclay-infused water.
They create and use leafsponges to collect clay-infused
(14:02):
water and break off chunks ofsoil and either eat it there or
take it to go.
I believe age, class andreproductive status is important
, so we documented who came tothe geology sites.
As you can see, adult femalesand juveniles spend the most
time eating soil.
Interestingly, this is the samepatterns that we see in humans.
(14:27):
Using analytical equipment, Itested the soils to determine
particle size, which is thepercentage of sand, silt and
clay.
We also looked at the type ofclay, as well as various
minerals.
There is a huge difference inthe amount of sand present in
these soils.
I don't know about you, but ifyou've ever eaten any soil but
(14:49):
86% sand must feel reallyterrible in the mouth.
We also conducted tests todetermine whether these soils
could add soil or plantsecondary metabolites like
phenolics.
Here you can see that soil fromYbira, the bar on the far left,
does much better job than soilfrom the other two geology sites
(15:10):
on the reserve.
It's almost on par withpharmaceutical grade Marilinite.
When it comes to adsorbingphenolics, we also looked at
bioavailability of iron, a soilanalysis that uses a digestion
which mimics intestinalbiochemistry.
Here we had an interestingresult the soil that could
(15:35):
adsorb phenolics had very littlebioavailable iron.
However, three other soils hada surprising amount of
bioavailable iron.
These three geology sites areat the base of trees and we
suspect that tree exudatesexudes phytochemicals that
enhance iron bioavailability, orthat iron was more exchangeable
(15:59):
at these sites.
I wanted to know when given achoice, which soil would chimps
pick?
Would they pick the soil that'shigh in clay or the soil that's
high in iron?
So to answer this question, wedesigned a field experiment.
We created experimental stumpsand placed these two kinds of
(16:24):
soil inside.
We monitored the experimentswith camera traps.
The experiment was designed forchimps, but you can see from
the title that chimps weren'tthe test subjects.
When you begin an experiment inthe wild, you have no control
over who participates.
It didn't take a group of blackand white colobus long to find
(16:48):
the experiment.
We had placed approximatelyfive kilograms of the two
different types of soil in eachstump.
When I returned, the soil highin clay was completely empty and
the other untouched.
I added an additional fivekilograms of soil.
The next day it was empty again.
In short, they consumed 9.67kilograms of soil high in clay
(17:14):
in 3.4.33 hours.
In the computer, in the cameratrap videos, we can see
aggression.
Some individuals had lessaccess.
Younger ones were pushed away,excluded or chased.
Who would have thought thatthere would be so much
competition for soil?
While in Uganda, I always alsohad the opportunity to teach
(17:38):
field assistance how to testwater quality.
I also visited the localschools and markets to better
understand life in this part ofworld and met with farmers to
learn about various strategiesthat had been implemented to
reduce crop foraging.
Poexisting with wildlife inUganda is a struggle.
Animals leave the forest andforage on crops, in particular
(18:03):
corn, cassava beans, sugarcaneand mangoes.
On the other hand, people enterthe forest and set snares for
bush meat.
For the most part, people aretolerant of chimpanzees, but
they are not tolerant of thebones.
Tolerance is shaped by manyfactors.
How much we like an animal isan important one.
(18:23):
Several strategies have beentrialed to reduce conflict
guarding, early warning,detection, plant barriers,
trenches, lights, nets, livetraps to capture damaged causing
animals and several types ofsimple fences.
While not the target of snaresat one time, almost 15% of the
(18:44):
chimpanzees had a snare injury.
To decrease snare use insidethe forest, goats and vet care
were provided to people thatagreed to stop setting snares.
As I understand, despite thesestrategies, the struggles
continue.
Badongo is a wonderful fieldstation.
(19:05):
Each researcher has their ownroom, and a 55 gallon drum
filled with water is warmed,making for a much appreciated
shower at the end of the day.
Meals are basic.
Communication has vastlyimproved.
When I first came to Badongo, Iwould send Mike a fax asking
(19:25):
various questions and giving himupdates.
Two weeks later I would receivehis reply.
As of late, you can get emailand camp and even Skype.
Malaria is still a thing, socome with malaria prophylaxis.
In 1999, I became a mother andthree years later had a second
(19:46):
child.
Being a mom taught me atremendous amount about
development and behavior.
I like to think that it's mademe a more observant and a better
researcher as well.
I can't help but give outmothering advice, so there's a
bit of that in this talk as well.
I thought about siteconsiderations before having
(20:06):
children, but they become moreimportant once I considered
bringing my family to the field.
Quality of life is shaped by ithelps shape the quality of your
research.
Here are a few things youngresearchers might consider when
choosing a site.
I think about the field station, infrastructure, diseases that
(20:28):
are present, access to cleandrinking water, access to health
care, food, transportation,political stability and crime.
When my children were six andnine, I saw an ad on PIN, which
is the primate informationnetwork for a research
(20:48):
coordinator in South Africa at aprivate nature reserve.
My husband was just retiringand so I applied.
The reserve was owned by thelate Dr Ian Giddy and his wife
Jenny.
During my interview I asked ifmy family could come as well and
their answer was something likewhy not?
We sold our house, put ourbelongings in storage and we
(21:11):
moved to.
The Western Cape.
Reserve was home to Chetmababoons and people warned me
that I might not find them sointeresting after studying
chimpanzees.
On the contrary, I found themto be fascinating.
The reserve sits on top of ahuge clay deposit.
I soon learned that where roadcuts had been made, exposing
(21:31):
clay, the baboons ate it.
Ian wanted to put a GPS coloron one of the baboons.
So in addition to learningabout geography, diet and
parasites, I also learned abouttrapping, sedating, coloring and
spatial analyses.
I use these data for mydoctoral dissertation at PRI.
(21:53):
Using camera traps, I monitoredwho came to the geology sites
and how long they stayed.
I found the same trend as I didin Uganda.
Adult females and juvenilesspent the most time eating soil.
Because baboons have anexternal marker of pregnancy, I
could also look at reproductivestate.
The pregnant females spent moretime at the geology sites than
(22:17):
any other baboon, but the numberwasn't significantly more.
Of all the geology questions Ihad, this one still vexes me.
The soil that the baboons preferto eat is white, but there is
also lots of pink soil whichshould be high in iron.
With Sarah Young, we tested thesoil for bioavailability of
(22:40):
iron.
Here in this graph you can seethe solid line.
This is for oh go back, totaliron, and so for total iron.
This is the really strongdigestion.
The pink soil is high in totaliron, but then when we tested
for bioavailable iron, neitherthe white nor the pink soil had
(23:04):
much iron to offer.
Again, we looked at whether thesoil was able to absorb or
detoxify plant secondarycompounds.
In the soil they can, but it'snothing like what we found in
Uganda.
Interestingly, thenon-preferred soil was better at
detoxification it's higher inkaolinite and iron oxides, which
(23:28):
can adsorb toxins.
I like to think of soil as amultivitamin that's eaten for
different reasons by differentindividuals at different times
in their lives.
I analyzed thousands or hundredsof fecal samples to determine
whether parasites play a role inzoology.
To my surprise, every singlesample contained the parasite
(23:52):
tricaris.
Mike and I discussed parasitetransmission and he suggested
that maybe the baboons werepicking it up at the geophagy
sites.
I objected, seeing that I didnot see feces around the
geophagy sites.
Once I looked carefully, Ifound images of baboons with
their almost likely dirty handsand feet on the surfaces,
(24:17):
frequently eaten by the baboons.
With colleagues at theUniversity of Kwasilunital,
chris Appleton and ColleenArcher, we tested whether there
were parasites on the soilsurface.
To my horror there was.
I say horror because I hadtasted the soil and so had my
son.
The results weren't as bad as Iinitially thought.
(24:38):
We did find parasites, but mostdidn't contain larvae which
were capable of infection.
In the slide that's on theright, only B is infected.
Nonetheless, the baboons eatacacia seeds off the forest
floor and the soil containedlots of tricaris.
With my cofman, joanna Lambertand Sarah Young, we published an
(25:02):
updated geophagy review.
We identified 287 accounts ofgeophagy among 136 species,
adding 79 primate species to thelist of those considered in
prior reviews.
I'm certain that the numberwill continue to grow.
(25:24):
While in South Africa, I alsolearned a tremendous amount
about alien invasive species andtheir eradication.
In the early 1900s, peoplebrought several types of acacia
trees from Australia for woodfuel and for tannins, which are
used for tanning leather.
In a few decades, these acaciaswere out, competing native
(25:47):
plants and using a tremendousamount of water.
Acacia marinesi, found on thereserve, is considered one of
the 100 worst alien invasiveplants worldwide.
In an effort to protect theamazing plants that are part of
the Cape Veristic Kingdom, thegovernment began a project to
eradicate several alien invasivespecies.
(26:09):
Interestingly, acacia marinesialso made up 39% of the baboon's
diet, and this important foodresource was being removed.
I also learned about baboonshenanigans.
Baboons were constantly tryingto get into the cars, houses and
they loved taking things likemy son's rubber boots and
(26:31):
chewing the nail caps off theroof, which later caused the
roof to leak.
I also had the pleasure ofworking with six field
assistants.
I learned about baboonsanctuaries and why there was a
need for them.
After the end of my study Ibegan noticing that the baboons
were moving further and furtheraway from the reserve and not
(26:52):
using their usual sleeping sites.
I was grateful for the VHF partof the collar as we were
struggling to find this hugetroop of 115.
One day we tracked them to anarea really far from the reserve
.
They had found a huge stand ofpristine acacia marinesi and
(27:12):
heavily foraging here.
As it was far from a rockyoutcrop, they began to sleep in
these trees.
This is highly unusual forchakma baboons.
Once the collar came off, Ibegan exploring their movements.
I wanted to look at their homerange and how it had changed
(27:33):
over time.
This sent me down a rabbit hole.
So many ways to estimate homerange.
I'm glad that I have anunderstanding of GIS and
encourage all students to havesome basic GIS skills.
What about human wildlifeconflict in South Africa?
Baboons, porcupines, jackals,leopards, otters and other
(27:55):
animals are in conflict withpeople.
My neighbor was a dairy farmerand he took the time to explain
how it was to live and work withbaboons.
Baboons eat crops that he'dplanted for his cattle.
They ate pelletized cattle foodand they entered his milking
parlor looking for food when thecows were being milked.
He had tried many techniques tomove them off his property.
(28:18):
Scarecrows and copain cannonswere just a few.
In the western Cape Cape nature, the governing body allows
farmers to shoot animals thatthey deem are problematic.
One unfortunate consequence isthat when a mother with an
infant is shot, if the infantdoesn't die, people don't have
(28:39):
the heart to kill the infant,and the infant may end up at a
baboon sanctuary.
There was one sanctuary closeby and I had the pleasure of
getting to know people whoselife work was caring and
advocating for baboons and otherwildlife.
People sometimes think that ifyou study primates, the only
avenue is academics, but that'snot true.
(29:00):
In addition to academia, youcould also work in biomedical
research in a captive settinglike zoos and or sanctuaries.
While in South Africa, Ilearned that research was easier
when you have potable water, nomalaria and access to good
health care and a comfortablebed.
South Africa struggles to meettheir electricity needs and with
(29:24):
crime.
Nonetheless, it is a gorgeouscountry.
My family and I left SouthAfrica and headed for Japan.
Here I worked with Mike Huffmanand his then student, andrew
McIntosh, who was just wrappingup his doctorate here was
tremendously helpful.
He taught me how to analyzefecal parasites, use R and was a
(29:46):
friend to my son, who alsoplayed guitar While at PRI.
I also had the opportunity tolearn about different primate
research-related projects.
It was really fun.
Chris Martin was at PRI at thesame time and I got to go into
his lab and see how he conductedhis experiments with the
chimpanzees.
(30:06):
For a theory of mind, we lovedliving in Japan, as it is safe,
has dependable publictransportation, excellent health
care, clean drinking water,tasty food and jiggly studio.
While here, abigail, my oldest,attended school.
It was a wonderful opportunityto learn about Japanese
(30:28):
education and culture.
Regarding human wildlifeconflict, japan has invested a
lot of time and effort tocoexist with wildlife, but it
remains a challenge.
In addition to monkeys, bears,deer and wild boar are a few
animals that are in conflictwith people.
(30:48):
In the 1950s, japan openedmonkey parks as a strategy to
reduce human conflict.
At one time, there were morethan 30 monkey parks, but as of
2018, only 10 remain.
Much effort has been made tocreate affordable electric
fences, habitat modification andeven robotics.
(31:11):
I love the idea of thiswolf-like robot that can scare
off animals from entering cropfields.
Next I had the chance to do apost-doctorate in India with
Professor Sindhu Radhakrishna.
With three wonderful studentswe trialed physical, auditory,
(31:32):
chemical and psychologicaldeterrence.
Some techniques were far moreeffective than others.
We learned about people'sperceptions of monkeys and
conducted field trials innorthern India to reduce crop
foraging.
We tried four kinds of physicaldeterrence.
(31:54):
On the far left you can seeit's a jute rope that's coated
with engine waste oil andcovered in chili powder and in
the middle is a sorry fence.
This is predominantly used insouthern India.
It's just sorry sewn together.
And then on the far right thisis green garden netting.
We initially just used it byitself and then when the monkeys
(32:18):
started to climb up the post,we attached thorny branches.
And we also had a neighbor thathad a brick wall.
And that was the fourth one.
We trialed three different kindsof auditory deterrence.
This is called in the south alocal gun and it's basically
made out of PVC pipe.
(32:38):
The little barrel comes off andyou spray deodorant or body
spray into the chamber, put inpaper, put the barrel back on
and stones and then you can seethe little igniter at the far
end and it makes a huge noise.
But like all other auditorydeterrence, they need to be used
(33:00):
sparingly because monkeys haveto wait to them very quickly.
We also tried bio acoustics andthey were an absolute bust.
But I think that these animalsare very used to human noises.
And the last one was in healthor sonic device, and I want to
just talk a little bit aboutthat.
(33:20):
Why we decided to try it was Ihad heard about a professor at
the University of Chandigarh,which is also in northern India,
and the resys macaques weregetting into the dormitories and
also into the pharmacy, and sowhat he tried was ultrasound and
(33:42):
it absolutely worked, butunfortunately it gave the
students headaches and the staffheadaches, and so he had to
discontinue using it.
To me it seemed like theperfect opportunity to try it in
a rural area where peopleweren't around.
We also tried repellents, andwe tried several of them, like
(34:05):
neem oil again the engine wasteoil and chili powder.
And here Rupesh is makingdeterrent made of rotting eggs
and lemons, and it was soincredibly foul we spread it at
the front of our crops and themonkeys, you know, could not
have cared less.
We'd also read that you cantake dung and put chilies in
(34:31):
them and dry them they call themdone briquettes and then burn
them when wildlife is around andit's supposed to be irritating
and the smoke will move them off.
It is incredibly irritating tothe eyes.
We didn't have any, thewildlife didn't seem to notice,
but it absolutely bothered thetwo students I worked with.
(34:55):
We also tried two types ofpsychological deterrence Drones
and mirrors.
I had read that drones wereeffective against elephants, so
we tried them on Reese'smacaques and they actually seem
to work.
I was only able to bring areally lightweight drone, but I
would love if somebody tried itwith like a heavier duty drone,
(35:17):
just to see how effective it isin other parts of the world.
And the other thing I had heardabout was that they did monkeys
don't recognize themselves inmirrors and it can be used to
just mirrors can be used todiscourage animals from entering
an area.
We tried placing mirrors on topof walls that the monkeys moved
(35:41):
along and at the edge of thecornfields, and this is a little
video that I captured.
So what we observed was likewhat I've heard other animals do
when given a mirror Wait for it.
They they like to look at partsof their body that are not
(36:07):
easily observed.
So this was not the response Iwas expecting, but it's really
interesting nonetheless.
Cindy and I wrote two papersbased on the responses of close
to 800 people.
We found that choice ofmitigation strategy was related
(36:28):
to religion, education andconflict history, but
surprisingly, not occupation.
A small percentage ofrespondents recommended monkey
culling as a mitigation strategy, but the majority preferred
that government authorities usetranslocation or sterilization
as a mitigation measure.
In a second paper we tried todetermine what determines
(36:52):
people's willingness to sharespace with monkeys.
We suggest that tangible costs,ie financial losses from
primate depredation, primarilydrive people's stated tolerance
for primate presence.
Intangible benefits fromprimates, like their ecological
existence, sentience andreligious values, also
(37:15):
critically affect attitudestowards existence.
When looking at costs andbenefits of shared space with
monkeys, it's not surprisingthat the more often monkeys
visit, the more likely they areto damage crops, damage property
and take food.
We also found that 80% ofpeople found that monkeys had a
(37:37):
right to exist.
Religious value was less thanexpected.
The last strategy I want todiscuss is condition-taste
diversion and before I begin Iwant to thank Dr Deborah
Forthman-Quick for helping me atremendous amount to better
understand kind of thiscomplicated phenomenon.
Condition-taste diversion is apowerful and lasting form of
(38:03):
learning that converts a highlypreferred food taste into a
disgusting stimulus.
Some form of gastrointestinalillness is associated with the
taste of food.
An aversion is created when theoffensive food is avoided.
After recovery from illness,condition-taste diversions can
(38:25):
be created artificially usingdrugs that have a side effect of
extreme nausea.
These compounds must beundetectable.
They must be tasteless andodorless.
It doesn't matter what the fooditem looks like, only what it
tastes like.
It doesn't matter where thetreated food item is placed,
(38:46):
only that the entire dose isconsumed.
Homogeneous foods are ideal andonly try to establish one food
aversion at a time.
There are three main types ofaversions.
A weaker version animals.
They still eat this preferredfood, but they eat it in a slow
(39:08):
manner.
They might sniff it, manipulateit, love, stare at eating with
retracted lips.
A moderate animals take morethan 15 minutes to eat a
preferred food.
And a stronger version is whenanimals refuse to eat a
preferred food and may even showsome uneasiness while near the
(39:29):
food.
So we had the opportunity to dosome captive studies at a
sterilization center before theresys macaques were sterilized,
and how that the experimentwould go is we would identify a
food and the drug that we wantedto use and the dosage is based
(39:51):
on their weight.
We would offer a treated baiton one day and then the
following day we would offerthem again a treated bait and if
the bait was eaten, we knewthat no CTA had been created.
If the bait was refused, thefollowing day we offered an
(40:11):
untreated bait and then again wecould see what strength of
aversion did we create.
If it was weak, we knew theywould eat it right away, but
they would eat it in a kind of adisgusted manner.
If they ate it after 15 minutes, it was moderate, and if the
bait was never eaten, we knewwe'd gotten a strong CTA.
(40:31):
So here I want to just show youa short video.
So this is the day that we'reoffering the.
We're offering an untreatedbanana.
So there's no compound on thisand you can see he's smelling it
(40:51):
, thinking about it, sets itdown, even gives it a little pat
, and then he turns his bodyaway from it.
So in my book that is a strongaversion.
Our findings were published inthis paper.
Two of the four drugs couldcreate a condition-taster
(41:15):
version estradiol andthiamindazole.
The best drug was estradiolThiamindazole required a lot
more compound and it was harderto conceal.
The best candidates to workwith were juveniles.
Despite the fact that it'scomplicated, I think the
strategy holds a lot of promise.
(41:37):
The effects can be lasting, noequipment is required after the
fact, it doesn't require humanvigilance and to avoid that food
item is self-imposed.
So toward the end of ourproject, our corn was looking
absolutely amazing, and then thewind came and then the pests
(42:04):
came.
First it was some sort of asoil nematode, and then
something else that ate the corn.
And then the monkeys came andevery day they were starting to
eat the corn.
And again I have a renewedappreciation for the challenge
of farming.
I loved my year in India andhad the privilege of learning
(42:27):
about their culture, religion,traditions and human-premise
conflict.
I loved their food worldheritage sites and, while slower
and less dependable than topans, made my way around India
using public transportation.
Regarding human-primateconflict, india is home to 14
(42:47):
species of non-human primates.
We asked people how they feltabout rhesus macaques, hanaman
langours, bonnet macaques andlion-tailed macaques.
This was the most disliked,having the highest costs and the
lowest benefits.
I believe how fond we are of aspecies.
Again, it shapes ourwillingness to live with them.
(43:10):
But, to be clear, of the fourmonkeys, rhesus macaques are the
most challenging.
They will take valuable itemslike your wallet, glasses and
smartphone and then barter withyou for their return.
People complain about monkeys,but approximately 50% of farmers
don't even try to reduce cropforaging with the simplest of
(43:33):
strategies.
The G20 summit was recentlyheld in Delhi.
To discourage rhesus macaquesfrom entering the summit,
cardboard cutouts of hanamanlangours were placed around the
building.
I don't know if they weresuccessful, but I admire their
creativity and out-of-the-boxthinking.
(43:58):
Most recently, I had theopportunity to work as a
consultant in the kingdom ofSaudi Arabia.
Amid El Bouq, pictured on theleft, is their best-known
primatologist and I had thepleasure of working with him on
a Hamidryas baboon project.
He worked on a previous studyin the late 1980s that estimated
population distribution anddensity.
(44:19):
He also interviewed people tounderstand their interactions
with baboons.
The 2022 study, which Icoordinated, collected
comparable data so the resultscould be compared.
In addition to populationestimation, we also looked at
variation in spatial ecologybetween urban and wild
(44:42):
populations.
I put my collaring skills togood use, as we call our 10
baboons to better understandtheir spatial ecology.
Saudi has introduced laws andfines to reduce provisioning of
human food waste which has drawnbaboons into their cities.
With other experts, werecommended additional
strategies to reduce conflict,to include sterilization.
(45:07):
I once thought that Saudi Arabiawas flat and had lots of sand
and camels.
While that is true, in someparts of the country, it's also
incredibly steep.
When thinking about gatheringdata, topography and climate
must be considered.
Saudi has no crime and littlepublic transportation, but lots
(45:27):
of flights from one side of thecountry to the other.
I am grateful for having hadthe opportunity to work with
Al-Bogh, so this is where I comefull circle.
As I told you, when I wasyounger I studied enology, which
is winemaking, botany,chemistry, spatial ecology,
(45:49):
ethylogy and pedology, which issoil science.
I had no idea that studyingsoil for my masters would be
helpful to my doctorate, but itabsolutely was.
Nor did I realize that workingas a wine chemist would give me
insight during my postdoc and behelpful to potential consulting
work.
(46:09):
Here you can see how I useknowledge from various subjects
for my doctorate, postdoctorateand current independent research
.
You might wonder if I shouldhave been more focused.
I am glad that I wasn't.
There's a podcast I really lovecalled Allergies with Ali Ward.
(46:29):
She interviewed Dr Lee Burke,who studies the science of
laughter.
He had the following to saydon't ever think you're so
diverse that it doesn't pay off.
It certainly does, because youget to see and think from
different perspectives.
I started with degrees inpsychology and sociology, and on
(46:49):
and on.
Then I stumbled intopsychoneuroimmunology.
I realized how everything wasintertwined, interwoven and
interrelated.
To Dr Burke I would say that Iwholeheartedly agree.
I think that having a diversebackground has been an advantage
(47:10):
and has allowed me to conductresearch in many parts of the
world on a variety of topics.
Now some final mom thoughts.
Advice to young people outthere Choose your site carefully
.
I talked about the pros andcons of the different sites I've
(47:30):
been at.
I also recommend that youchoose your collaborators
carefully.
Get out of your comfort zoneand learn new skills and
abilities when opportunitiespresent themselves.
You won't regret the things youdid, but will regret the things
you didn't have the courage totry.
Human wildlife, conflict willcontinue to increase and
(47:51):
requires creative solutions.
Just I want to thank a fewpeople who have helped me along
my way.
While primatologists haveabsolutely shaped my path, it
has been greatly influenced bypeople outside of it.
Dr Herb Brunkhorst was my highschool biology teacher, who gave
me a love of learning and ofbiology.
(48:12):
Dr Jenny Giddy I mentioned,helped me come to South Africa
and then to Costa Rica.
Dr Eugene Spasiani was myprimate of my parasitology
professor at the University ofIowa, who I learned a tremendous
amount from.
Bob Pakota was the first winerythat I worked at.
(48:33):
He taught me a lot aboutgrowing things and the science
of taste.
Dr Fred Provenza, I met at theUniversity of at Utah State
University and has just been anamazing friend to me over the
years and is someone who reallysees the big picture.
And Dr Sarah Young, who taughtme a lot about methodology and
(48:58):
about the study of soil.
And thank you very much.
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