January 14, 2025 • 23 mins
Burning out isn't a matter of 'if' as much as a matter of 'when'. According to Mind the Product, over 80 percent of product managers report experiencing burnout during their careers — and I reckon that number is pretty conservative. As high achievers, we're prone to pushing our limits beyond the breaking point when it comes to our careers. But even though just about everyone goes through it, burnout can still feel horribly isolating. It can trick us into thinking we're not trying hard enough, or just not good enough at all.
My guest today is Evie Brockwell, a product expert, consultant, and coach. After learning just how bad burnout was affecting her clients and colleagues, Evie dug in with loads of independent research to understand the problem and how PMs can avoid it, or at the very least, recover from it. Toward the end, we also cover proactive strategies for leaders to protect their teams from feeling the burn.
Resources from this episode:
- Subscribe to The Product Manager newsletter
- Connect with Evie on LinkedIn
- Check out Evie’s website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hannah Clark (00:01):
In this industry, burning out isn't
a matter of 'if' as muchas a matter of 'when'.
According to Mind the Product,over 80 percent of product
managers report experiencingburnout during their careers
— and I reckon that numberis pretty conservative.
As high achievers, we'reprone to pushing our limits
beyond the breaking pointwhen it comes to our careers.
But even though just abouteveryone goes through
it, burnout can stillfeel horribly isolating.
(00:23):
It can trick us into thinkingwe're not trying hard enough,
or just not good enough at all.
My guest today is EvieBrockwell, a product expert,
consultant, and coach.
After learning just howbad burnout was affecting
her clients and colleagues,Evie dug in with loads of
independent research tounderstand the problem and how
PMs can avoid it, or at thevery least, recover from it.
Toward the end, we alsocover proactive strategies
(00:44):
for leaders to protect theirteams from feeling the burn.
Let's jump in.
Welcome back to theProduct Manager Podcast.
I'm here with Evie Brockwell.
Thank you so much forjoining us today, all the
way from the UK today.
Evie Brockwell (00:56):
I know you're welcome.
I'm like, at least we'reon the internet now, so I
don't have to go anywhere.
Hannah Clark (01:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good to have you on.
And today we're going tobe talking about burnout
in the product space.
So obviously a perenniallyrelevant topic, especially
at this time of year, andyou've conducted a fair
amount of research on thisrecently, which I'm extremely
interested to dig into.
So first of all, what led you topursue the research on burnout?
Evie Brockwell (01:20):
Yeah, so I feel like Most people in
product have got some storyto share around burnout.
And I have a story that I alwayssay, Oh, it wasn't that bad.
I didn't have to taketime off work and I
recovered and it was fine.
But I would say that ifI actually talk about it,
I probably had been atmyself, but sometimes we
(01:41):
can downplay these things.
So I started in that space, butwas like, Oh like I was probably
just pushing myself too hard.
It probably doesn'thappen to everyone.
And then I started coachingpeople about three years ago.
And.
Around 50 percent of thepeople that came to speak to
me were going, Oh, I reallywant some help because I want
to be really good at my job,but I'm feeling so stressed,
(02:01):
so overwhelmed and I've hitburnout and I don't want that to
happen again, how can I do both?
And I was like, this isquite a lot of people,
like this is crazy.
So I decided to do some researchto see if I was just getting
the anomalies coming my way,or if it did truly impact
loads of people in product.
And it turns outit was the latter.
Hannah Clark (02:20):
Yeah, I'm not surprised at all.
And I think it's possibly evenjust a widespread component
of our current culture, theway that things have shifted
working from home, I'm sure hasexacerbated that to an extent.
But yeah, let's dig into it.
So first, I think we shoulddefine burnout because I think
there's a lot of misconceptionsabout what burnout actually is.
It's just the impactit has on people.
(02:40):
So, what is burnout exactlyand how serious is it?
Evie Brockwell (02:43):
Yeah, so it really depends on who you speak
to because this got classifiedby the World Health Organization
in 2019 and they classifiedit as a workplace phenomenon.
And it's it's not just work.
There'll be a lot of people,and if you could be a stay at
home parent, or you could beon the hunt for a new job, and
you could still get yourselfto the point of burnout.
(03:05):
So, that's the slight complaintthat people have with the
official definition, but the waythat they describe it is when
you're feeling negative towardsyour job, if you're feeling
really apathetic, if you arestarting to be mentally distant
from the work that you're doing,they're all indicators and
signs that you're burnt out.
The other way that I look atit from some of the burnout
(03:28):
training that I've done isthat we'll be really stressed
and you can have this hyperstress state, but burnout
is when you've sat in thatplace of super high stress
for so long that it reallystarts to take a negative toll
on things like your mentalhealth, your physical health,
your ability to do your job.
And it's funny because I thinksometimes people would be
(03:50):
like, Oh like you might nothave been burnt out because.
maybe they're not classing yourstress as being high enough.
But at the same time, if we'vegot these people that are
feeling super stressed all thetime, and they're feeling that
way for more than a period ofthree months, I think that's
enough for people to go, okay,we've got a problem here.
We should maybe do somethingabout the amount of people
(04:10):
that are feeling this way.
Hannah Clark (04:13):
I think it's one of those things that
like, no matter what happensin our culture, there
will always be burnout.
Because like you said,like there's always
factors, including work,outside of work, that are
driving us over the edge.
Obviously, burnout hasa really significant
impact on individuals.
Let's talk aboutthe business impact.
Is there any quantitativeresearch on how burnout
affects organizations?
Evie Brockwell (04:33):
Yeah, so primarily I've pulled stats
from the UK because this iswhere I've been doing most
of the work with companiesand with individuals to talk
about why this is important.
So I'm sure you couldextrapolate this out and
you probably see even highernumbers in places like the U.
S.
and maybe even Canada.
From the UK side of things,from the research that I did,
I found that there's 12 percentof the people that said that
(04:54):
they'd either burnt out or beenon the verge of it, quit their
jobs due to feeling this way.
So, that's an indicativenumber to say, actually,
yeah, people are votingwith their feet and leaving.
Even in environments like thiswhere it feels like, oh I don't
know if I'll get another job.
I've still spoken to maybetwo or three people, at least
(05:15):
this year, that have gone,I don't care it's still too
much, I'm still going to quit.
So it's impactingemployee retention.
And then the other factoris that we see so much in
terms of cost of sick days.
So in the UK, it's been reportedthat there's about 10 million
sick days a year due to burnout.
And the cost is estimatedat around 28 billion
(05:38):
dollars, pounds.
So it is huge and I thinksometimes we look at it
from just thinking about theindividual that's been impacted
themselves, but for anyonethat's worked in a team where
you have got a person that'sfeeling like they're pushed
to the edge or when you havegot someone that's feeling
super high stress, you'llknow that also impacts the
whole team atmosphere and thework that everyone's doing
(05:59):
around you or that person.
It's not as easy as justquantifying it in terms of
the days that people haveoff or in terms of the
people that quit their jobs.
There is actually also thesesubsequent effects of the impact
on the team, the morale, theatmosphere, and therefore the
work that actually gets done andthe value that's then created.
Hannah Clark (06:20):
It makes a lot of sense and definitely
have been there as well.
So when we'retalking about this.
Obviously, there'sa lot to research.
There is a lot of factorsto consider when it comes
to burnout, the impactsas well as the causes.
What have been some of themore surprising findings at a
high level from your research?
Evie Brockwell (06:38):
Yeah.
I mean, the highest one wasI didn't expect the amount
of people that shared thatthey'd burnt out or felt that
way to be as high as it was.
So.
When I pulled the stats, it camefrom over 250 product people
and 92 percent of them hadeither burnt out or said that
they'd been on the verge of it.
And obviously this is selfdiagnosis, like we can't go
(07:01):
around and go, Oh, like we'reall just going to go to the
doctor and see if I'm burnt out,it, it doesn't work that way.
But if we've got 92 percent ofpeople feeling that way, And I
know that when we talk about itin these conversations, we're
like, yeah, it makes sense.
But when you go to work,there's not 92 percent of
people having that chat.
So when you're going throughit, you think, oh, it's just me.
(07:21):
Maybe I should beable to work harder.
Maybe I should be ableto handle this stress.
Maybe this is just part of thejob and I'm not cut out for it.
Whereas, Seeing thatnumber, I was like, okay,
this is surprising, butit really shows how much
work we need to do here.
Hannah Clark (07:34):
Yeah, so when we're talking about,
like you said, you don'treally go to the doctor
for a diagnosis of burnout.
I'm not really sure if thereis an actual medical condition
associated with it or ifit's recognized as one, but
obviously it's somethingthat we all identify with.
I think everyone has recognizedat least some signs of burnout.
So let's get into thoselike how do we know that
we're approaching burnoutand at what point does
it get significantly moredifficult to recover from it?
Evie Brockwell (07:57):
So many people probably leave
it till it's too late.
It's at the point where youreally are going, I cannot
get out of bed and I can't goto work and I need to call in
sick and all of these things.
And then there's some peoplethat still push through that
extent, and there's storiesof, especially of people
that progress their careersuper quickly in Silicon
(08:17):
Valley that have then hadheart attacks in their 30s.
So it really can take its tollon people's physical well being,
because when you're living inthis high state of stress for
so long, you're producing somuch cortisol, you're pushing
yourself through all of thesebarriers that your body's trying
to show to you and eventuallycausing real internal damage.
(08:39):
So we don't want to getto that point, we want to
recognize it earlier than that.
And everyone isslightly different.
So I've hosted workshops,I've done focus groups, I've
spoken to loads of people thatI've coached, and some of the
signs will be quite similar.
So people will start torecognize things first I'm
not sleeping as well as Iused to, or I'm not doing I'm
feeling apathetic towards otheractivities outside of work
(09:03):
that I used to really enjoy.
So it's not just payingattention to how you feel
when you're doing the job,because sometimes you're
pushing through, it's payingattention to how you feel
when you're not working.
Or even if you've got likea short fuse and you're not,
portraying yourself in the wayyou want to around your family.
And we often associate thesethings with stress, but I'd
say if you're experiencingthese for a prolonged period
(09:25):
of time, which I would usuallysay is like three months or
more, then that's when you'relike it's not just because
it was intense this quarter.
It's not just becauseI had this one project
to get over the line.
It's becoming my normal state.
So therefore I shoulddo something about it.
One of the best exercisesthat people can look at
and map out themselvesis a window of tolerance.
(09:47):
And you basically can use thatto be like, oh, this is when
I feel really calm and this iswhen I feel in my normal state.
So if you're meditating all thetime and going to yoga and the
sunshine and you're out walkingand work's not that stressful
and everything feels great.
Then you can have an externalwindow where you start to
notice how you feel whensome of those things drop or
change, and then you have thishigher level where you start
(10:08):
to realize that you're reallysnappy, like not a pleasant
person to be around, and Thenyou're like, okay what causes
those things and how can Istart to identify that earlier?
So yeah, there's some commontraits, but it's really
recognizing what that lookslike for you as an individual.
Hannah Clark (10:26):
That's really sound advice and something I
think anyone can just adaptto their own situation.
So once we've recognized that weare starting to feel the effects
of burnout and we have, youknow, done a little bit of self
evaluation to see where we're atwith that and how we're feeling
in our bodies, what's the nextsteps in terms of being able
to recover from it actively?
What I'm thinking is obviouslythere's always a temptation
(10:47):
to take time off of work ortry and take some kind of
leave, but that's just notan option for a lot of folks.
in this particularjob environment.
So how can we likerecover on the go?
Evie Brockwell (10:56):
Yeah.
And even one of the thingsthat was huge when I did
this research in terms ofthe surprising things as
well was that 72 percentof people experience
burnout more than once.
So I think that go to ofbeing like, Oh I'll just
take a couple of weeks off.
That doesn't actually changeanything because you come
back to the same environmentthat you were in before.
(11:16):
And, yeah, you might havetaken a step back, had a bit
of recovery, and we all knowwe need holiday from time to
time, but if you haven't workedon those underlying causes and
the root problem, then it's notgoing to go away anyway, so,
yes, absolutely take time toyourself and take time off where
you can, but, like you say, it'sjust not possible for a lot of
people, so if you're too fardown the line, it can be hard
(11:38):
to pull it back and you mightneed that break for a reset,
but for anyone else, if it'sYeah, like you say, it's this
time of year and everything'sjust been intense through the
whole of 2024 and you want tostart 2025 on the right foot.
It's about making thosemicro changes and they
exist in two main ways.
One is how you actually perceivethings and how you think about
(12:01):
what goes on around you becauseIf you don't have the right
mindset, no matter what changesyou try and implement, they're
going to be hard to keep.
Because a lot of the changesthat people need to implement
are things like settingthe right boundaries, which
means not attending everymeeting on the planet, or
it means saying no to somework that comes your way, or
it means actually finishingwork at 5pm when you're
(12:23):
meant to for your own sanity.
And people go in with theintention it's 2025, I'm going
to set boundaries, I'm goingto make sure I go to the gym
every day, I'm going to dothis, I'm going to do that.
And it slowly slipsout because they have a
conversation with someoneand it's Oh could you please
just do this piece of work?
And if you don't do this,then this project will fail.
And then they internalize thatand take that upon themselves
(12:44):
to go, Oh I'm not doing my jobwell if I don't do these things.
Or you have people pleasingtendencies or all of these
other factors that actuallyunderlie the practical
approach of setting a boundary.
So you have to do that mindsetwork to get comfortable with
not being a people pleaseror to get comfortable with
feeling like it's okay if Idon't feel like I'm giving 120
(13:08):
percent to work, nothing bad'sgoing to happen, I'm still
going to get paid, I'm stillgoing to be good at my job,
my self worth is still goingto be really high, but if you
don't feel like that internallyit's to make the shift.
So, yeah, basically.
Mindset work, absolutelynecessary, and identifying
those changes that will helpyou, which could be anything
(13:29):
from setting boundaries, fromattending less meetings, from
not being overwhelmed by a taskthat you have to do because
you've worked out how to breakit down into something smaller.
Or, if you're working withpeople, like one of the
huge things that came upfrom the research was that
toxic environments, whichcan be a whole host of
things, have a huge impact.
And for 59 percent ofpeople that was having an
(13:51):
unsupportive boss, and for57 percent of people it was
lacking psychological safety.
So those ones can be harder tochange because you're trying
to influence your environment.
But sometimes you really haveto be that person that sets
those boundaries with peopleor leads those conversations
to improve the relationship.
Or works out how to navigateyour work environment
(14:12):
to move into a differentspace or a different team.
Because again, if you don'tsolve that, you can do
everything else yourself,but you're still going to
be facing these things thatimpact you on a daily basis.
Hannah Clark (14:22):
I really like that two pronged approach, be
looking at, you know, lookinginward and looking outward and
like how you can sort of meetin the middle and find out
which balance works the bestfor you and how you can adjust
your mindset and expectations.
And I'm reallyaligned with that.
I found in the past when Ifelt burnt out and taking
time off, oftentimes whatI've recognized as coming back
into work, I just revert tothat same stressed situation.
(14:45):
I think because of these exact.
Causes that you've mentioned,it's you're right back into that
mindset and then suddenly you'realso a week or two weeks behind.
So that doesn't reallyhelp your case as well.
So I, yeah, thisis really valuable.
I think it's something thata lot of people need to hear.
So naturally thisis very pervasive.
We're going to switchgears just a little bit.
Let's talk aboutproactive measures.
I think that, you know, probablythe best time to prevent
(15:07):
burnout is before you'reactually in the middle of it.
So how can we set up ourroutines or kind of do some of
this evaluation proactively sothat we're not in this situation
where we're trying to recover.
Evie Brockwell (15:18):
Yeah, and honestly, I feel like this
is a good time of year to bethinking about it because it's
like everyone ramps themselvesup a little bit in January.
It's let's get into things.
People might go a bit slower.
And one of the biggest things,and this is what happened to
me, was that I got to the pointof going, Oh my God, there's
way too much going on here.
I can't keep showingup like this.
I'm not sleeping.
I've got eczemaall over my body.
I just keep working moreand more hours and it's
(15:40):
not changing anything.
So I was like, right, screwit, I'm taking a whole day
off, I'm calling in sick, I'mdeleting Slack, I'm closing the
emails down and I'm just goingto make a list of everything
that I've got going on andwork out how to solve this.
So even if you feel likeOh, I can't, I've got too
much going on, I can'ttake time out of myself.
(16:00):
I highly recommend that off theback of this, at least even just
taking a couple of hours to notedown what are the things that
make me feel like I'm gettingclose to being high stressed or
burnt out, what are those earlywarning signs, what are the
things I can do for myself asan individual that help prevent
some of those things, and howcan I bake that into my routine
and do that on a regular basis.
(16:21):
and reflect on the points overthe last year where you really
have gone, actually this hasbeen a bit of a trigger for me.
When this happened, that'swhen I started to feel
really stressed or when thisperson said this thing to
me, this is when I startedto feel really overwhelmed.
And if you can recognize thosekind of triggers, you can
(16:41):
get a step closer to workingout exactly what it is that
pushes you a bit further.
And then from that, you thenneed to work out what can I
put in place to change that?
So the way that I usually dothis when I'm coaching people
is that we'll look at what thosetriggers might have been, like
different events and activities.
So it might be thatyour boss asks you for
a report at 5pm that hewants at 9am the next day.
(17:04):
obvious trigger.
You had plans that evening,you wanted to spend time
with your family, nowyou feel super stressed.
And the problem is that youprobably didn't push back
and say no, you decided totake it on and do it anyway.
So then we're like, okay,next time what could you do?
How could you practicepushing back and saying no?
These things obviously feeluncomfortable because you're
changing the way you've beenprogrammed for years and years
(17:25):
in the way that you've shown up.
But by working out how youcan run a few experiments
in a few different areas,you can work out how you can
take the number of activitiesthat happen in a week that
make you feel that way.
lower down and how you canincrease the stuff that makes
you feel better higher up.
And going back to the mindsetpiece, like you truly have to
believe that you know that overtime making more and more of
(17:48):
those changes will mean that youdo better at your job and you
can handle everything better.
But when you're on thathamster wheel of trying to get
everything done and feelinglike there's no capacity to
even do that reflection orchange things, That's what can
be so crazy, and it's cool,if you feel that way, pick
those like two or three thingsoff that to do list that will
make you feel better, getthem out of the way, because
(18:10):
then you will clear up someheadspace to focus on things.
But we'll have all seen this,there's 90 percent of the work
that you do that we don't wantto admit to, because we want
to feel like we've got somepurpose, but Your company pivots
anyway, or no one does anythingwith that report you create.
So be a bit more pragmaticabout the things that you
can maybe drop to allow youto accelerate even further
(18:31):
as you go through the year.
Hannah Clark (18:32):
Oh, and then we're getting into the art
of saying no, we could do awhole other episode on that.
Maybe we should.
But speaking of relationshipswith higher leadership, I think
that we should also talk alittle bit about the leadership
piece of this, because youknow, within the culture that
promotes burnout or where wedo feel like there are if we're
ICs and we're feeling that someof the factors for burnout are
out of our control, there issomebody who is purview that is.
(18:54):
So if we're giving advice tomaybe folks who are more of an
executive leadership role, Ithink that's and have the power
to make policies or be awarethat these kinds of things
are affecting their people.
What kinds of policies orstrategies should we be
considering implementingto reduce the impact of
burnout on our people?
Evie Brockwell (19:11):
Great question.
It's really interesting becauselike burnout impacts everyone.
From the research that Idid, ICs are highly impacted,
but also a bunch of productleaders are impacted too.
And sometimes it then justgets fed down the value chain.
And there's part of it,which is how can we support
product leaders so thatthey don't feel that way?
And especially people thatfeel sandwiched between the
(19:33):
two, between senior leadershipand the board and their team.
You're fighting it from bothsides, so it can be a really
stressful role to be in.
But, like you say, it's alsookay, we'll You're still in
the driving seat a bit more,so you should still be trying
to drive some of those changes.
So A, go and get the supportyou need so you don't feel
(19:53):
like you're doing thatkind of stuff on your own.
B, some of the biggestthings that people have
said about the reasons whyburnout actually happens for
them in the product role.
are things like havingtoo much ambiguity.
So if you're a product leader,you really want to make sure
that people have got the rightlevel of focus and direction
and the right level of autonomy.
(20:14):
And one of the best ways tomake sure you're doing that
is to constantly be havingthose two way conversations and
make it more of a chat about,Do people feel supported?
Do they have direction?
Do they need more clarity?
And just opening up thatspace, so it can be a back
and forth, can really help,and it can really help
people to feel empowered.
Some of the other things thatpeople mentioned were the fact
(20:36):
that some of the work thatthey were doing didn't feel
super valuable because maybethe company pivots or maybe
people change direction or theycan't see what it relates to.
So always trying to tiethings back to the why and
show the value of stuffand don't pivot too often.
Sometimes easier said thandone, but that can be huge.
Some of the other bits wherethe teams feel like they spend
(20:58):
so much time trying to alignwith loads of different teams.
So again, the more alignmentyou can create at the leadership
level and how clear you can beon priorities and feed those
down, that can really helpteams with their direction.
So.
They're some of the big bits,some of the other more micro
things of managers that I'vespoken to that have really
supported their teams arebringing this conversation
(21:20):
in so when you have like yourweekly team catch ups or however
you do those things, make sureyou're really asking people
how they're feeling and havingthose kind of health check ins.
In a way that you don't justtake numbers or you don't
just go, Oh, okay, cool.
Like you're feeling stressed.
Maybe it'll change next week.
That you really honor how peopleare feeling, talk to them about
(21:42):
it and recognize what you can doto support them and help them.
And then the other bit iscoaching around a bunch of
those things, like how to sayno, how to set boundaries,
how to change meeting culture.
If you can do some of thosebits, that can also really
help get into how peopleare feeling at the root
and change some of that.
Hannah Clark (22:00):
I really appreciate also the call out to
the kind of middle management,getting it from both sides.
I think that is a reallystressful and just a position
that we don't talk about.
enough how difficultit can be to take some
autonomy for yourself whenyou're in that position.
So really great tips there.
I really appreciateall this information.
Do you have this researchpublished anywhere, Evie?
Evie Brockwell (22:20):
I do.
I should probably put it on mywebsite, but I have, if anyone
gets in touch with me directly,you can find me on LinkedIn.
I have it all.
I have a huge Canva doc, whichI add to all of the time.
And I'm also running freeworkshops, at least one in
January and maybe one lateron to share this kind of
insight with more people.
So any of those bits, peoplecan find me on LinkedIn and find
(22:44):
all of the insight, find allof the things that I'm up to,
and hopefully find more waysto get support in these areas.
Hannah Clark (22:49):
Okay.
Great.
We'll we'll throw some linksinto the show notes for
folks listening and wherecan people follow you online?
What are they searchingto find you online?
Evie Brockwell (22:57):
I just search my name, search Evie Brockwell.
There's a whole host of thingsthat come up on Google, but
LinkedIn is the place to be.
And I'll add some moreof these resources to my
website as I go throughso that people can access
them and download them too.
Hannah Clark (23:09):
Awesome.
Thank you so muchfor joining us.
This has been a very valuablechat and a really great
start to the new year.
Evie Brockwell (23:15):
You're welcome.
Had a lovely chat.
Hannah Clark (23:19):
Thanks for listening in.
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The Product Manager, whereveryou get your podcasts.
In this industry, burning out isn't
a matter of 'if' as muchas a matter of 'when'.
According to Mind the Product,over 80 percent of product
managers report experiencingburnout during their careers
— and I reckon that numberis pretty conservative.
As high achievers, we'reprone to pushing our limits
beyond the breaking pointwhen it comes to our careers.
But even though just abouteveryone goes through
it, burnout can stillfeel horribly isolating.
(00:23):
It can trick us into thinkingwe're not trying hard enough,
or just not good enough at all.
My guest today is EvieBrockwell, a product expert,
consultant, and coach.
After learning just howbad burnout was affecting
her clients and colleagues,Evie dug in with loads of
independent research tounderstand the problem and how
PMs can avoid it, or at thevery least, recover from it.
Toward the end, we alsocover proactive strategies
(00:44):
for leaders to protect theirteams from feeling the burn.
Let's jump in.
Welcome back to theProduct Manager Podcast.
I'm here with Evie Brockwell.
Thank you so much forjoining us today, all the
way from the UK today.
Evie Brockwell (00:56):
I know you're welcome.
I'm like, at least we'reon the internet now, so I
don't have to go anywhere.
Hannah Clark (01:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Good to have you on.
And today we're going tobe talking about burnout
in the product space.
So obviously a perenniallyrelevant topic, especially
at this time of year, andyou've conducted a fair
amount of research on thisrecently, which I'm extremely
interested to dig into.
So first of all, what led you topursue the research on burnout?
Evie Brockwell (01:20):
Yeah, so I feel like Most people in
product have got some storyto share around burnout.
And I have a story that I alwayssay, Oh, it wasn't that bad.
I didn't have to taketime off work and I
recovered and it was fine.
But I would say that ifI actually talk about it,
I probably had been atmyself, but sometimes we
(01:41):
can downplay these things.
So I started in that space, butwas like, Oh like I was probably
just pushing myself too hard.
It probably doesn'thappen to everyone.
And then I started coachingpeople about three years ago.
And.
Around 50 percent of thepeople that came to speak to
me were going, Oh, I reallywant some help because I want
to be really good at my job,but I'm feeling so stressed,
(02:01):
so overwhelmed and I've hitburnout and I don't want that to
happen again, how can I do both?
And I was like, this isquite a lot of people,
like this is crazy.
So I decided to do some researchto see if I was just getting
the anomalies coming my way,or if it did truly impact
loads of people in product.
And it turns outit was the latter.
Hannah Clark (02:20):
Yeah, I'm not surprised at all.
And I think it's possibly evenjust a widespread component
of our current culture, theway that things have shifted
working from home, I'm sure hasexacerbated that to an extent.
But yeah, let's dig into it.
So first, I think we shoulddefine burnout because I think
there's a lot of misconceptionsabout what burnout actually is.
It's just the impactit has on people.
(02:40):
So, what is burnout exactlyand how serious is it?
Evie Brockwell (02:43):
Yeah, so it really depends on who you speak
to because this got classifiedby the World Health Organization
in 2019 and they classifiedit as a workplace phenomenon.
And it's it's not just work.
There'll be a lot of people,and if you could be a stay at
home parent, or you could beon the hunt for a new job, and
you could still get yourselfto the point of burnout.
(03:05):
So, that's the slight complaintthat people have with the
official definition, but the waythat they describe it is when
you're feeling negative towardsyour job, if you're feeling
really apathetic, if you arestarting to be mentally distant
from the work that you're doing,they're all indicators and
signs that you're burnt out.
The other way that I look atit from some of the burnout
(03:28):
training that I've done isthat we'll be really stressed
and you can have this hyperstress state, but burnout
is when you've sat in thatplace of super high stress
for so long that it reallystarts to take a negative toll
on things like your mentalhealth, your physical health,
your ability to do your job.
And it's funny because I thinksometimes people would be
(03:50):
like, Oh like you might nothave been burnt out because.
maybe they're not classing yourstress as being high enough.
But at the same time, if we'vegot these people that are
feeling super stressed all thetime, and they're feeling that
way for more than a period ofthree months, I think that's
enough for people to go, okay,we've got a problem here.
We should maybe do somethingabout the amount of people
(04:10):
that are feeling this way.
Hannah Clark (04:13):
I think it's one of those things that
like, no matter what happensin our culture, there
will always be burnout.
Because like you said,like there's always
factors, including work,outside of work, that are
driving us over the edge.
Obviously, burnout hasa really significant
impact on individuals.
Let's talk aboutthe business impact.
Is there any quantitativeresearch on how burnout
affects organizations?
Evie Brockwell (04:33):
Yeah, so primarily I've pulled stats
from the UK because this iswhere I've been doing most
of the work with companiesand with individuals to talk
about why this is important.
So I'm sure you couldextrapolate this out and
you probably see even highernumbers in places like the U.
S.
and maybe even Canada.
From the UK side of things,from the research that I did,
I found that there's 12 percentof the people that said that
(04:54):
they'd either burnt out or beenon the verge of it, quit their
jobs due to feeling this way.
So, that's an indicativenumber to say, actually,
yeah, people are votingwith their feet and leaving.
Even in environments like thiswhere it feels like, oh I don't
know if I'll get another job.
I've still spoken to maybetwo or three people, at least
(05:15):
this year, that have gone,I don't care it's still too
much, I'm still going to quit.
So it's impactingemployee retention.
And then the other factoris that we see so much in
terms of cost of sick days.
So in the UK, it's been reportedthat there's about 10 million
sick days a year due to burnout.
And the cost is estimatedat around 28 billion
(05:38):
dollars, pounds.
So it is huge and I thinksometimes we look at it
from just thinking about theindividual that's been impacted
themselves, but for anyonethat's worked in a team where
you have got a person that'sfeeling like they're pushed
to the edge or when you havegot someone that's feeling
super high stress, you'llknow that also impacts the
whole team atmosphere and thework that everyone's doing
(05:59):
around you or that person.
It's not as easy as justquantifying it in terms of
the days that people haveoff or in terms of the
people that quit their jobs.
There is actually also thesesubsequent effects of the impact
on the team, the morale, theatmosphere, and therefore the
work that actually gets done andthe value that's then created.
Hannah Clark (06:20):
It makes a lot of sense and definitely
have been there as well.
So when we'retalking about this.
Obviously, there'sa lot to research.
There is a lot of factorsto consider when it comes
to burnout, the impactsas well as the causes.
What have been some of themore surprising findings at a
high level from your research?
Evie Brockwell (06:38):
Yeah.
I mean, the highest one wasI didn't expect the amount
of people that shared thatthey'd burnt out or felt that
way to be as high as it was.
So.
When I pulled the stats, it camefrom over 250 product people
and 92 percent of them hadeither burnt out or said that
they'd been on the verge of it.
And obviously this is selfdiagnosis, like we can't go
(07:01):
around and go, Oh, like we'reall just going to go to the
doctor and see if I'm burnt out,it, it doesn't work that way.
But if we've got 92 percent ofpeople feeling that way, And I
know that when we talk about itin these conversations, we're
like, yeah, it makes sense.
But when you go to work,there's not 92 percent of
people having that chat.
So when you're going throughit, you think, oh, it's just me.
(07:21):
Maybe I should beable to work harder.
Maybe I should be ableto handle this stress.
Maybe this is just part of thejob and I'm not cut out for it.
Whereas, Seeing thatnumber, I was like, okay,
this is surprising, butit really shows how much
work we need to do here.
Hannah Clark (07:34):
Yeah, so when we're talking about,
like you said, you don'treally go to the doctor
for a diagnosis of burnout.
I'm not really sure if thereis an actual medical condition
associated with it or ifit's recognized as one, but
obviously it's somethingthat we all identify with.
I think everyone has recognizedat least some signs of burnout.
So let's get into thoselike how do we know that
we're approaching burnoutand at what point does
it get significantly moredifficult to recover from it?
Evie Brockwell (07:57):
So many people probably leave
it till it's too late.
It's at the point where youreally are going, I cannot
get out of bed and I can't goto work and I need to call in
sick and all of these things.
And then there's some peoplethat still push through that
extent, and there's storiesof, especially of people
that progress their careersuper quickly in Silicon
(08:17):
Valley that have then hadheart attacks in their 30s.
So it really can take its tollon people's physical well being,
because when you're living inthis high state of stress for
so long, you're producing somuch cortisol, you're pushing
yourself through all of thesebarriers that your body's trying
to show to you and eventuallycausing real internal damage.
(08:39):
So we don't want to getto that point, we want to
recognize it earlier than that.
And everyone isslightly different.
So I've hosted workshops,I've done focus groups, I've
spoken to loads of people thatI've coached, and some of the
signs will be quite similar.
So people will start torecognize things first I'm
not sleeping as well as Iused to, or I'm not doing I'm
feeling apathetic towards otheractivities outside of work
(09:03):
that I used to really enjoy.
So it's not just payingattention to how you feel
when you're doing the job,because sometimes you're
pushing through, it's payingattention to how you feel
when you're not working.
Or even if you've got likea short fuse and you're not,
portraying yourself in the wayyou want to around your family.
And we often associate thesethings with stress, but I'd
say if you're experiencingthese for a prolonged period
(09:25):
of time, which I would usuallysay is like three months or
more, then that's when you'relike it's not just because
it was intense this quarter.
It's not just becauseI had this one project
to get over the line.
It's becoming my normal state.
So therefore I shoulddo something about it.
One of the best exercisesthat people can look at
and map out themselvesis a window of tolerance.
(09:47):
And you basically can use thatto be like, oh, this is when
I feel really calm and this iswhen I feel in my normal state.
So if you're meditating all thetime and going to yoga and the
sunshine and you're out walkingand work's not that stressful
and everything feels great.
Then you can have an externalwindow where you start to
notice how you feel whensome of those things drop or
change, and then you have thishigher level where you start
(10:08):
to realize that you're reallysnappy, like not a pleasant
person to be around, and Thenyou're like, okay what causes
those things and how can Istart to identify that earlier?
So yeah, there's some commontraits, but it's really
recognizing what that lookslike for you as an individual.
Hannah Clark (10:26):
That's really sound advice and something I
think anyone can just adaptto their own situation.
So once we've recognized that weare starting to feel the effects
of burnout and we have, youknow, done a little bit of self
evaluation to see where we're atwith that and how we're feeling
in our bodies, what's the nextsteps in terms of being able
to recover from it actively?
What I'm thinking is obviouslythere's always a temptation
(10:47):
to take time off of work ortry and take some kind of
leave, but that's just notan option for a lot of folks.
in this particularjob environment.
So how can we likerecover on the go?
Evie Brockwell (10:56):
Yeah.
And even one of the thingsthat was huge when I did
this research in terms ofthe surprising things as
well was that 72 percentof people experience
burnout more than once.
So I think that go to ofbeing like, Oh I'll just
take a couple of weeks off.
That doesn't actually changeanything because you come
back to the same environmentthat you were in before.
(11:16):
And, yeah, you might havetaken a step back, had a bit
of recovery, and we all knowwe need holiday from time to
time, but if you haven't workedon those underlying causes and
the root problem, then it's notgoing to go away anyway, so,
yes, absolutely take time toyourself and take time off where
you can, but, like you say, it'sjust not possible for a lot of
people, so if you're too fardown the line, it can be hard
(11:38):
to pull it back and you mightneed that break for a reset,
but for anyone else, if it'sYeah, like you say, it's this
time of year and everything'sjust been intense through the
whole of 2024 and you want tostart 2025 on the right foot.
It's about making thosemicro changes and they
exist in two main ways.
One is how you actually perceivethings and how you think about
(12:01):
what goes on around you becauseIf you don't have the right
mindset, no matter what changesyou try and implement, they're
going to be hard to keep.
Because a lot of the changesthat people need to implement
are things like settingthe right boundaries, which
means not attending everymeeting on the planet, or
it means saying no to somework that comes your way, or
it means actually finishingwork at 5pm when you're
(12:23):
meant to for your own sanity.
And people go in with theintention it's 2025, I'm going
to set boundaries, I'm goingto make sure I go to the gym
every day, I'm going to dothis, I'm going to do that.
And it slowly slipsout because they have a
conversation with someoneand it's Oh could you please
just do this piece of work?
And if you don't do this,then this project will fail.
And then they internalize thatand take that upon themselves
(12:44):
to go, Oh I'm not doing my jobwell if I don't do these things.
Or you have people pleasingtendencies or all of these
other factors that actuallyunderlie the practical
approach of setting a boundary.
So you have to do that mindsetwork to get comfortable with
not being a people pleaseror to get comfortable with
feeling like it's okay if Idon't feel like I'm giving 120
(13:08):
percent to work, nothing bad'sgoing to happen, I'm still
going to get paid, I'm stillgoing to be good at my job,
my self worth is still goingto be really high, but if you
don't feel like that internallyit's to make the shift.
So, yeah, basically.
Mindset work, absolutelynecessary, and identifying
those changes that will helpyou, which could be anything
(13:29):
from setting boundaries, fromattending less meetings, from
not being overwhelmed by a taskthat you have to do because
you've worked out how to breakit down into something smaller.
Or, if you're working withpeople, like one of the
huge things that came upfrom the research was that
toxic environments, whichcan be a whole host of
things, have a huge impact.
And for 59 percent ofpeople that was having an
(13:51):
unsupportive boss, and for57 percent of people it was
lacking psychological safety.
So those ones can be harder tochange because you're trying
to influence your environment.
But sometimes you really haveto be that person that sets
those boundaries with peopleor leads those conversations
to improve the relationship.
Or works out how to navigateyour work environment
(14:12):
to move into a differentspace or a different team.
Because again, if you don'tsolve that, you can do
everything else yourself,but you're still going to
be facing these things thatimpact you on a daily basis.
Hannah Clark (14:22):
I really like that two pronged approach, be
looking at, you know, lookinginward and looking outward and
like how you can sort of meetin the middle and find out
which balance works the bestfor you and how you can adjust
your mindset and expectations.
And I'm reallyaligned with that.
I found in the past when Ifelt burnt out and taking
time off, oftentimes whatI've recognized as coming back
into work, I just revert tothat same stressed situation.
(14:45):
I think because of these exact.
Causes that you've mentioned,it's you're right back into that
mindset and then suddenly you'realso a week or two weeks behind.
So that doesn't reallyhelp your case as well.
So I, yeah, thisis really valuable.
I think it's something thata lot of people need to hear.
So naturally thisis very pervasive.
We're going to switchgears just a little bit.
Let's talk aboutproactive measures.
I think that, you know, probablythe best time to prevent
(15:07):
burnout is before you'reactually in the middle of it.
So how can we set up ourroutines or kind of do some of
this evaluation proactively sothat we're not in this situation
where we're trying to recover.
Evie Brockwell (15:18):
Yeah, and honestly, I feel like this
is a good time of year to bethinking about it because it's
like everyone ramps themselvesup a little bit in January.
It's let's get into things.
People might go a bit slower.
And one of the biggest things,and this is what happened to
me, was that I got to the pointof going, Oh my God, there's
way too much going on here.
I can't keep showingup like this.
I'm not sleeping.
I've got eczemaall over my body.
I just keep working moreand more hours and it's
(15:40):
not changing anything.
So I was like, right, screwit, I'm taking a whole day
off, I'm calling in sick, I'mdeleting Slack, I'm closing the
emails down and I'm just goingto make a list of everything
that I've got going on andwork out how to solve this.
So even if you feel likeOh, I can't, I've got too
much going on, I can'ttake time out of myself.
(16:00):
I highly recommend that off theback of this, at least even just
taking a couple of hours to notedown what are the things that
make me feel like I'm gettingclose to being high stressed or
burnt out, what are those earlywarning signs, what are the
things I can do for myself asan individual that help prevent
some of those things, and howcan I bake that into my routine
and do that on a regular basis.
(16:21):
and reflect on the points overthe last year where you really
have gone, actually this hasbeen a bit of a trigger for me.
When this happened, that'swhen I started to feel
really stressed or when thisperson said this thing to
me, this is when I startedto feel really overwhelmed.
And if you can recognize thosekind of triggers, you can
(16:41):
get a step closer to workingout exactly what it is that
pushes you a bit further.
And then from that, you thenneed to work out what can I
put in place to change that?
So the way that I usually dothis when I'm coaching people
is that we'll look at what thosetriggers might have been, like
different events and activities.
So it might be thatyour boss asks you for
a report at 5pm that hewants at 9am the next day.
(17:04):
obvious trigger.
You had plans that evening,you wanted to spend time
with your family, nowyou feel super stressed.
And the problem is that youprobably didn't push back
and say no, you decided totake it on and do it anyway.
So then we're like, okay,next time what could you do?
How could you practicepushing back and saying no?
These things obviously feeluncomfortable because you're
changing the way you've beenprogrammed for years and years
(17:25):
in the way that you've shown up.
But by working out how youcan run a few experiments
in a few different areas,you can work out how you can
take the number of activitiesthat happen in a week that
make you feel that way.
lower down and how you canincrease the stuff that makes
you feel better higher up.
And going back to the mindsetpiece, like you truly have to
believe that you know that overtime making more and more of
(17:48):
those changes will mean that youdo better at your job and you
can handle everything better.
But when you're on thathamster wheel of trying to get
everything done and feelinglike there's no capacity to
even do that reflection orchange things, That's what can
be so crazy, and it's cool,if you feel that way, pick
those like two or three thingsoff that to do list that will
make you feel better, getthem out of the way, because
(18:10):
then you will clear up someheadspace to focus on things.
But we'll have all seen this,there's 90 percent of the work
that you do that we don't wantto admit to, because we want
to feel like we've got somepurpose, but Your company pivots
anyway, or no one does anythingwith that report you create.
So be a bit more pragmaticabout the things that you
can maybe drop to allow youto accelerate even further
(18:31):
as you go through the year.
Hannah Clark (18:32):
Oh, and then we're getting into the art
of saying no, we could do awhole other episode on that.
Maybe we should.
But speaking of relationshipswith higher leadership, I think
that we should also talk alittle bit about the leadership
piece of this, because youknow, within the culture that
promotes burnout or where wedo feel like there are if we're
ICs and we're feeling that someof the factors for burnout are
out of our control, there issomebody who is purview that is.
(18:54):
So if we're giving advice tomaybe folks who are more of an
executive leadership role, Ithink that's and have the power
to make policies or be awarethat these kinds of things
are affecting their people.
What kinds of policies orstrategies should we be
considering implementingto reduce the impact of
burnout on our people?
Evie Brockwell (19:11):
Great question.
It's really interesting becauselike burnout impacts everyone.
From the research that Idid, ICs are highly impacted,
but also a bunch of productleaders are impacted too.
And sometimes it then justgets fed down the value chain.
And there's part of it,which is how can we support
product leaders so thatthey don't feel that way?
And especially people thatfeel sandwiched between the
(19:33):
two, between senior leadershipand the board and their team.
You're fighting it from bothsides, so it can be a really
stressful role to be in.
But, like you say, it's alsookay, we'll You're still in
the driving seat a bit more,so you should still be trying
to drive some of those changes.
So A, go and get the supportyou need so you don't feel
(19:53):
like you're doing thatkind of stuff on your own.
B, some of the biggestthings that people have
said about the reasons whyburnout actually happens for
them in the product role.
are things like havingtoo much ambiguity.
So if you're a product leader,you really want to make sure
that people have got the rightlevel of focus and direction
and the right level of autonomy.
(20:14):
And one of the best ways tomake sure you're doing that
is to constantly be havingthose two way conversations and
make it more of a chat about,Do people feel supported?
Do they have direction?
Do they need more clarity?
And just opening up thatspace, so it can be a back
and forth, can really help,and it can really help
people to feel empowered.
Some of the other things thatpeople mentioned were the fact
(20:36):
that some of the work thatthey were doing didn't feel
super valuable because maybethe company pivots or maybe
people change direction or theycan't see what it relates to.
So always trying to tiethings back to the why and
show the value of stuffand don't pivot too often.
Sometimes easier said thandone, but that can be huge.
Some of the other bits wherethe teams feel like they spend
(20:58):
so much time trying to alignwith loads of different teams.
So again, the more alignmentyou can create at the leadership
level and how clear you can beon priorities and feed those
down, that can really helpteams with their direction.
So.
They're some of the big bits,some of the other more micro
things of managers that I'vespoken to that have really
supported their teams arebringing this conversation
(21:20):
in so when you have like yourweekly team catch ups or however
you do those things, make sureyou're really asking people
how they're feeling and havingthose kind of health check ins.
In a way that you don't justtake numbers or you don't
just go, Oh, okay, cool.
Like you're feeling stressed.
Maybe it'll change next week.
That you really honor how peopleare feeling, talk to them about
(21:42):
it and recognize what you can doto support them and help them.
And then the other bit iscoaching around a bunch of
those things, like how to sayno, how to set boundaries,
how to change meeting culture.
If you can do some of thosebits, that can also really
help get into how peopleare feeling at the root
and change some of that.
Hannah Clark (22:00):
I really appreciate also the call out to
the kind of middle management,getting it from both sides.
I think that is a reallystressful and just a position
that we don't talk about.
enough how difficultit can be to take some
autonomy for yourself whenyou're in that position.
So really great tips there.
I really appreciateall this information.
Do you have this researchpublished anywhere, Evie?
Evie Brockwell (22:20):
I do.
I should probably put it on mywebsite, but I have, if anyone
gets in touch with me directly,you can find me on LinkedIn.
I have it all.
I have a huge Canva doc, whichI add to all of the time.
And I'm also running freeworkshops, at least one in
January and maybe one lateron to share this kind of
insight with more people.
So any of those bits, peoplecan find me on LinkedIn and find
(22:44):
all of the insight, find allof the things that I'm up to,
and hopefully find more waysto get support in these areas.
Hannah Clark (22:49):
Okay.
Great.
We'll we'll throw some linksinto the show notes for
folks listening and wherecan people follow you online?
What are they searchingto find you online?
Evie Brockwell (22:57):
I just search my name, search Evie Brockwell.
There's a whole host of thingsthat come up on Google, but
LinkedIn is the place to be.
And I'll add some moreof these resources to my
website as I go throughso that people can access
them and download them too.
Hannah Clark (23:09):
Awesome.
Thank you so muchfor joining us.
This has been a very valuablechat and a really great
start to the new year.
Evie Brockwell (23:15):
You're welcome.
Had a lovely chat.
Hannah Clark (23:19):
Thanks for listening in.
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