Every product leader wrestles with the same tradeoff: move fast and risk breaking things, or move slow and risk irrelevance. But what if the real accelerator wasn’t cutting corners—it was systematizing experimentation? In this episode, Hannah Clark sits down with Jean Castanon, VP of Digital Product at American Express, to explore how his team quadrupled their testing velocity in a year, redefined what “success” in experiments really means, and built a referral program that became Amex’s second-largest global acquisition channel.
Jean brings over a decade of experience at Amex across strategy, marketing, and digital, and he shares how his team balances speed, scale, and sustainability in product strategy. From building experimentation muscle to future-proofing digital storefronts, this conversation is packed with lessons for product leaders at every stage.
Resources from this episode:
- Subscribe to The CPO Club newsletter
- Connect with Jean on LinkedIn
- Check out American Express
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hannah Clark (00:01):
Every product leader faces the same impossible
choice—move fast and breakthings or build sustainably
and risk getting left behind.
But there's a third path thatmost teams never consider.
What if you could move fasterby being more systematic?
What if the secret to outpacingyour competition wasn't about
cutting corners, but aboutbuilding an experimentation
engine so efficient thatyou could test and learn
(00:22):
at a pace that makes yourcurrent sprint velocity look
like you're standing still?
And what if you could learn howto do it from a product leader
at one of the most recognizablecompanies in the world?
My guest today is Jean Castanon,Vice President of Digital
Product at American Express.
Jean has spent over a decade atAmex, working across multiple
functions before focusingon digital product strategy.
(00:42):
You're about to hear howhis team quadrupled their
experimentation velocityin a single year, a
counterintuitive lessonabout what makes experiments
"successful", and how theybuilt a referral program that
went from being nothing totheir second largest customer
acquisition channel globally.
Let's jump in.
Oh, by the way.
We hold conversationslike this every week.
So if this sounds interestingto you, why not subscribe?
(01:05):
Okay, now let's jump in.
Welcome back to theProduct Manager podcast.
Jean, it's such an honor.
Thank you so much formaking time for us today.
Jean Castanon (01:13):
Thank you for having me.
Hannah Clark (01:14):
Can you tell us a little bit about your
background and how youended up at your role,
where you are today in Amex?
Jean Castanon (01:19):
Sure.
So I joined AmericanExpress back in 2011 as an
analyst in our strategicplanning group in London.
Over the years, I had thechance to work across many
functions within the company,all the way from marketing,
business development, andmultiple digital functions.
(01:39):
So I've worked in digitalnow for about 10 years
in different capacities.
Both, I would say more deliveryfocused, some more strategic.
And what has really driven meover the years, I think, is the
ability to make a tangible andmeaningful impact for both our
customers and our shareholders,and driving what I call
(02:01):
purposeful innovation, whichhopefully drives marketplace
differentiation for the company.
Hannah Clark (02:06):
Cool.
Well, today we're gonna belooking a little bit into the
future and focusing on what'sgoing on with new technology and
products and trying to get aheadof what's currently competitive.
So to get us started, can youtell us a little bit about what
forward thinking with productstrategy looks like specifically
like at an establishedcompany like American Express?
Jean Castanon (02:23):
So we think maintaining a forward thinking
approach is really importantto ensure we're meeting our
customer current needs, butalso accurately dodging what
they'll need in the future.
So one of the best ways thatI think has worked and I would
recommend other product leadersto have, is to develop product
strategies with forward thinkingapproaches that are leveraging
(02:44):
constant experimentation.
And why that is importantis that you can see what
customers are responding to,and you remove subjectivity
in that process by measuringtheir actual behavior.
So as a company, you know,without the traditional
bank branches that othersmight have, our digital
presence is our storefront.
So we have to make sure thatour digital experiences live
(03:07):
up to our brand vision ofproviding the world's best
customer experience every day.
So to do this, what we'redoing right now is we're
really turbocharging andexpanding our experimentation
efforts and we wanna buildan always on ecosystem that's
constantly optimizing itselfbased on user behavior.
(03:27):
And this isespecially important.
They've been, you know howsome of the younger generations
like Gen Zs and millennialsare interacting with us
digitally, and they alreadymake up over 60% of our.
New customer acquisitions,but also they have higher
expectations of what thosedigital experiences need to be.
So we need to constantlybe uping our game
(03:49):
to meet those needs.
Hannah Clark (03:50):
I imagine that you're doing any
TikTok answers lately?
Jean Castanon (03:53):
Not yet.
Hannah Clark (03:54):
Not yet.
That might be anover thing anyway.
I'm not sure people arestill even doing that.
Okay well, let's dive intothe experimentation journey.
So you're scaling from 30tests to over 120 tests
this year, which is crazy.
That's massive growth.
What drove this decisionto ramp up the testing and
experimentation and how do youbuild the organizational muscle
to support that kind of growth?
Jean Castanon (04:15):
You know, scaling that much in just one year in
the US alone is a big leap andit's being driven by a number of
factors, but predominantly two.
First is the increase that we'reseeing to our site in terms of
traffic, which basically givesus a much larger service area
to optimize the experiences for.
Second is our collectivebelief that experimentation
(04:37):
is essential to keeping pacewith evolving customer needs.
So what this scaling looks likein practice, you know, is we had
to structure teams, workflows,and tools to make testing
a core capability, not justan afterthought or something
that we do from time to time.
So we reorganized around adedicated experimentation
(04:57):
team whose hopeful focusis to identify, build, and
run high quality tasks.
And they are also backed by astrong cross-functional support
structure that is alignedaround a single North Star
metric, which in this case isa 10% lift in conversion rate.
So that focus combined withthe support from leadership and
(05:20):
the sponsorship as well as theinvestment that it requires.
Has been really, you know,behind what's helping us to
turbocharge that velocity,but also the impact of the
experimentation program.
Hannah Clark (05:31):
Okay.
So I'm really interested in thenuts and bolts behind aligning
a whole team in order to meetthis 10% conversion lift.
How do you align thesemultiple functions?
We have product, we'vegot design, technology,
analytics, marketing, andget everybody sort of on the
same page working towardsthis one specific trajectory.
How does that work?
Jean Castanon (05:49):
It's not always that easy.
I'm not gonna lie.
But I do think what is importantis to start by defining a
metric that will resonatewith all of the parties.
So in this case, what we didis when we looked at, you know,
from a business perspectiveand marketing conversion
is a measure of growth.
So that it was a meaningfulmetric that resonated
(06:10):
with those functionsfor product and design.
It was a metric thatresonated as well with
our typical objectives.
Because it's about eliminatingfriction in the user experience
and ensuring that the productworks hard and it's meant to be.
And then finally, from a techand analytics perspective,
conversion is a great metricbecause it reflects how
well the systems, you know,availability and performance
(06:32):
metrics are working as well asthe insights are performing.
So conversion became like thiscommon language for progress
and one metric that united thedifferent perspectives to make
sure that this ship kind ofsailed in the same direction.
So we're also focusingin addition, you know, to
having that single NorthStar metric on creating
transparency across the team.
(06:53):
So we share insights, trackingperformance, we establish
regular ceremonies and weidentify what's working and
what's not, because in itselfthat's always evolving as well.
So that clarity, I think,really allowed us to operate
as one system rather than aset of disconnected teams with
different competing goals.
(07:13):
And the result is a muchmore coordinated approach
to optimizing the customeracquisition funnel.
Hannah Clark (07:18):
I would say that this is the dream.
Like I think that this is avery common issue, even with
smaller scaling organizations,to be able to kind of work in
lockstep across departmentswithout this, you know,
siloing getting in the wayof people's overdoing work or
under, you know, not completelyaligning on those functions.
So I think that'sreally innovative.
So let's talk a littlebit about team capacity.
'cause it's one thing to alignall these folks that kind of
(07:41):
towards this one North starmetric, but then managing the
workload and ensuring thatfolks are working sustainably
at a measured pace and notgetting, you know, pulled in
five different directions.
That's a kind ofa different task.
How do you maintain thatkind of focus in a larger
organization when there's alwaysthese competing priorities?
Jean Castanon (07:57):
So I would say the most important thing that we
did here is that we establisheda dedicated team that was solely
focused on experimentation.
So every day when they wakeup, they think about this and
it's pretty, their core focus.
So this ensure that theyaren't pulling all of the other
projects that keep poppingup as priorities evolve.
And their entire remit isjust to run, optimize, and
(08:19):
scale experimentation efforts.
And the second thing that theydo is that they also facilitate
core teams to run experimentson their own by providing
subject matter expertise andproject management support.
On top of that, what we're doingis that we're really looking
at this from three angles.
The first one is froma talent perspective.
So we brought together theright cross-functional mix,
(08:40):
not just across product, butacross design, analytics,
engineering, and many morefunctions including legal.
But we're also upskilling teammembers to say ahead of how the
external landscape is evolving.
Second is the process.
So we're deeply examining eachstep of the full lifecycle.
Of running an experimentall the way from having an
(09:02):
idea through discovery tobuild execution and all the
feedback loops associated withthis, and identifying which
are the steps that have thebottlenecks and fixing them so
that they don't slow us down.
And the last piece, I wouldsay just the third one,
which is very important,is tooling and technology.
So we're obviously constantlyassessing what our tech stack is
(09:23):
here, but we're also partneringwith external vendors that
specialize in experimentation.
Platform so that we canmove faster and stay
focused on what we do best.
Hannah Clark (09:32):
I see.
Okay.
I wanted to press a little biton the results portion because
I think this is something thatevery organization, whether
they're a startup, whetherthey're scaling, whether an
enterprise, we all kind ofdeal with this pressure to
move quickly and especiallyin this climate where, you
know, innovation is movingfaster than it ever has.
The cycles of developmentare just at light
speed at this point.
(09:52):
And so there's an enormousamount of pressure to change
courses when experimentsdon't immediately show lifts
or results in the short term,even if we're quite confident
that progressing with thatexperiment and kind of giving
it some time to mature couldyield long-term results.
So how have you changed themindset organizationally at
American Express, and whatadvice would you give to other
leaders who are kind of facingsome of that similar sort of
(10:13):
cultural and economic pressureto kind of yield results from
experiments and keep moving?
Jean Castanon (10:19):
So I think that there's two pieces there
that I'd like to touch on.
The first one is on the speed.
I think speed is reallyimportant because the faster
you learn, the better sothat you don't actually spend
nine months learning if it'sactually not gonna drive
the outcome that you want.
But then the second one, whichI think is often what is the
biggest challenge, is thisperception that if an experiment
(10:39):
doesn't drive the conversionlift, it's been a failure.
And that's not the case, right?
And that takes alittle bit of time.
And we've shifted that cultureby reframing what success
looks like and we positionlearning as a valuable
outcome in itself, not just aconversion lift, which is our,
still our North Star metric.
(11:00):
So I mentioned earlierthat we have that 10%
lift in conversion.
We also have a robustscorecard that looks at other
experimentation outcomes,which includes velocity, win
rate, the number of variantsthat we're testing, et cetera.
So my advice for otherproduct leaders out there is.
It's ready to invest in buildinga learning culture early.
(11:20):
It takes time and it'ssomething harder to test.
So often the defaultis to launch and just
learn on the back of it.
So make space for the teamsto test ideas without fear
of failure, and ensure thatyou have strong alignment
on both purpose and process.
Hannah Clark (11:36):
All right.
Well, that sounds verysound as far as a process.
I do wanna talk aboutsomething that maybe
a little bit more fun.
We'll go into a case study forthe American Express Referral
Program, which I know hasgrown to become now your second
largest customer acquisitionchannel globally, which is huge,
especially for a company thesize of American Express, but
it scaled from almost nothingover 10 years, so enormous
(11:58):
success there with that program.
So what were the key productdecisions that made this
program successful inyour view, and how did you
scale it internationally?
Jean Castanon (12:07):
Believe it or not, it actually started
in international and itstarted in France and
it then scaled globally.
But one of the key productdecisions we made about our
referral program was to manageit as a true product from
the early days, meaning thatwe thought deeply about the
end-to-end experience andoptimizing for the user journey.
And to do this, we focusedon a few core things.
(12:27):
You know, like the first,I would say the core
infrastructure was reallykey and we needed to make
sure that it's flexibleand scalable underpinning
everything that we do.
And then the second one isreally about simplification.
So making it easy for theuser and making it very
intuitive and seamless.
For example, right now whatwe're doing is we're testing
tactics like QR codes forin-person referrals as well
(12:50):
as asynchronous referralswhere you might want to refer
somebody but have them checkit out when they get home.
So the key is really aboutfacilitating the virality that
we get from the program whilemaintaining the right behaviors.
The next one I would sayis personalization which
has been obviously a hottopic for many years, but.
We use many tactics here,including AI and data
(13:12):
analytics to personalize theincentives that we give to
our members and their friends,but also to personalize the
experience that they see.
And the last really underpinningall of this is controls.
So the same way that wehave reality that is good
behavior, we can havethe opposite behavior.
And facilitating that viralityrequires us to have the right
control so that the programattracts the best customers and
(13:35):
who we want as a result of this.
I would say multiple prongedapproached over the years.
We continue to see a lot ofsuccess with the program,
especially with the youngercohorts of car members where we
see about 75% of our referralsare resulting in millennial
and Gen Z acquisitions.
So this aligns with whatwe're seeing in terms of
also digital behaviors.
(13:56):
These cohorts are veryengaged digitally and they're
also themselves used toreferring more, which is
fueling this viral loop.
Hannah Clark (14:04):
Okay.
I wanna talk a little bitmore, 'cause you mentioned
that AI is kind of one of thekind of tools in your toolkit
right now as you're movingthrough these processes.
I'm curious, what kinds of usecases have you been piloting?
Can you share what you'vebeen exploring and how you're
kind of evaluating whetheror not those the results
that the AI use is yieldingare worth moving forward
with or iterating on those?
Jean Castanon (14:23):
I think from a generative ai it's relatively
early days, but it's definitelygonna have very practical
implications about our productdevelopment and experimentation
processes overall.
Right now we're piloting usecases that are focused more
on internal productivity.
Things like speeding up, howwe're streamlining ideas,
writing them into testablehypotheses, designed to code
(14:46):
translation, and then ourability to iterate faster.
So we're able to experiment withthese tools and with generative
AI because we have thankfully,a technical enablement layer
that provides us with theright guardrails to do that,
which allows our technicalteams to focus on innovation
without reinventing controls.
But I would say it'sstill early days.
Hannah Clark (15:05):
Well, I'd like to talk a little bit about
your storefront as well.
So you mentioned thatyour storefront is kind of
your digital bank branch.
You know, you don'thave physical locations
for people to visit.
How do you approach thepersonalization experience
for prospects who arenew to American Express?
Given that you rely on verydifferent signals than you
know, folks who do have moreof a storefront situation.
Jean Castanon (15:24):
You're spot on that we don't have
physical bank branches likeall our regional banks.
So our website iseffectively our digital bank.
And for new prospects,personalization can become
tricky as we would rely ondigital signals typically to
personalize those experiences.
So what we've done over theyears is build a digital
system that allows us topersonalize dynamically even
(15:44):
as the user progresses throughthe acquisition funnel.
So then as we learn morethrough their interactions,
behavior, declared inputs,we can adapt the products,
the features, the offers theysee, or even the experience.
So we're bringing this testand learn mindset that I
was talking about earlier tothis as well and our digital
storefront is becoming aspace where experimentation is
(16:06):
really core to how we evolvethe experiences, not just the
tool that we use occasionally.
Hannah Clark (16:12):
All right.
And we always wannatalk about trends.
We said before we'd be talkingabout looking two steps ahead.
So when we look at the futureand the trends and technologies
that you believe now couldbe most, most disruptive
to the financial servicescustomer acquisition space,
how is American Expresspositioning itself to stay
ahead of those changes?
Jean Castanon (16:32):
There are a few major trends we're
watching closely, and thisis not the full list, but
the ones that come to mind.
One is obviously the evolutionof customer expectations
around immediacy and relevance.
And I think as AI will becomemore embedded in everyday
consumer tools, that this willbecome even more important.
So we need to continueprioritizing that
(16:53):
personalization that I was justtalking about, but also the
ease of use of our experiencesand of our core acquisition
channels such as, you know,our referral program that,
that we've talked a little bitabout before the second trend.
That is also something we'rewatching very closely, is
the way that users searchfor information online.
(17:13):
And this will continue tochange and it's been changing
for the past few years.
So we're evolving our strategyto stay ahead of the shift.
What search will remain a keyway we engage with users, and
it's shaping both how we thinkabout this from a technology
perspective, but also froma content strategy so that
we keep up with the changesof core consumer behaviors.
And a final trend I'llmention is the change of
(17:35):
competitive landscape.
We're not just fighting forshare of wallet and attention
with the traditional issuers.
Fintechs are now prolificand they're really defining
also what user expectationsare from a digital
experience perspective is.
So, I truly believethat our ability to test
and learn at speed willbecome a differentiator.
(17:59):
So that's why we're investing somuch in this infrastructure that
we were talking about earlier inthe podcast because modernizing
our digital storefront and ourbranch experiences as well as
upskilling our teams acrossall the functions that make
this a reality to become moreagile, is gonna be really
key to win in the space.
So we're very deliberate aboutfuture proofing this and why
(18:20):
we build, so our systems andprocesses are durable, flexible,
and not reliant on one person.
For one team.
And I think that last pieceis also very important.
Hannah Clark (18:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's an ongoing process torefine all of those aspects.
Well, thank you so much now,this has been wonderful.
I really appreciate you takingthe time out of your super
busy schedule to chat with us.
Where can folks continue theconversation with you online?
Jean Castanon (18:43):
You can find me on LinkedIn.
Thank you very muchfor having me today.
I really enjoyed our chat.
Hannah Clark (18:48):
Me too.
Thanks so much.
Take care.
Thanks for listening in.
For more great insights,how-to guides and tool reviews,
subscribe to our newsletter attheproductmanager.com/subscribe.
You can hear more conversationslike this by subscribing to
The Product Manager whereveryou get your podcasts.
Every product leader faces the same impossible
choice—move fast and breakthings or build sustainably
and risk getting left behind.
But there's a third path thatmost teams never consider.
What if you could move fasterby being more systematic?
What if the secret to outpacingyour competition wasn't about
cutting corners, but aboutbuilding an experimentation
engine so efficient thatyou could test and learn
(00:22):
at a pace that makes yourcurrent sprint velocity look
like you're standing still?
And what if you could learn howto do it from a product leader
at one of the most recognizablecompanies in the world?
My guest today is Jean Castanon,Vice President of Digital
Product at American Express.
Jean has spent over a decade atAmex, working across multiple
functions before focusingon digital product strategy.
(00:42):
You're about to hear howhis team quadrupled their
experimentation velocityin a single year, a
counterintuitive lessonabout what makes experiments
"successful", and how theybuilt a referral program that
went from being nothing totheir second largest customer
acquisition channel globally.
Let's jump in.
Oh, by the way.
We hold conversationslike this every week.
So if this sounds interestingto you, why not subscribe?
(01:05):
Okay, now let's jump in.
Welcome back to theProduct Manager podcast.
Jean, it's such an honor.
Thank you so much formaking time for us today.
Jean Castanon (01:13):
Thank you for having me.
Hannah Clark (01:14):
Can you tell us a little bit about your
background and how youended up at your role,
where you are today in Amex?
Jean Castanon (01:19):
Sure.
So I joined AmericanExpress back in 2011 as an
analyst in our strategicplanning group in London.
Over the years, I had thechance to work across many
functions within the company,all the way from marketing,
business development, andmultiple digital functions.
(01:39):
So I've worked in digitalnow for about 10 years
in different capacities.
Both, I would say more deliveryfocused, some more strategic.
And what has really driven meover the years, I think, is the
ability to make a tangible andmeaningful impact for both our
customers and our shareholders,and driving what I call
(02:01):
purposeful innovation, whichhopefully drives marketplace
differentiation for the company.
Hannah Clark (02:06):
Cool.
Well, today we're gonna belooking a little bit into the
future and focusing on what'sgoing on with new technology and
products and trying to get aheadof what's currently competitive.
So to get us started, can youtell us a little bit about what
forward thinking with productstrategy looks like specifically
like at an establishedcompany like American Express?
Jean Castanon (02:23):
So we think maintaining a forward thinking
approach is really importantto ensure we're meeting our
customer current needs, butalso accurately dodging what
they'll need in the future.
So one of the best ways thatI think has worked and I would
recommend other product leadersto have, is to develop product
strategies with forward thinkingapproaches that are leveraging
(02:44):
constant experimentation.
And why that is importantis that you can see what
customers are responding to,and you remove subjectivity
in that process by measuringtheir actual behavior.
So as a company, you know,without the traditional
bank branches that othersmight have, our digital
presence is our storefront.
So we have to make sure thatour digital experiences live
(03:07):
up to our brand vision ofproviding the world's best
customer experience every day.
So to do this, what we'redoing right now is we're
really turbocharging andexpanding our experimentation
efforts and we wanna buildan always on ecosystem that's
constantly optimizing itselfbased on user behavior.
(03:27):
And this isespecially important.
They've been, you know howsome of the younger generations
like Gen Zs and millennialsare interacting with us
digitally, and they alreadymake up over 60% of our.
New customer acquisitions,but also they have higher
expectations of what thosedigital experiences need to be.
So we need to constantlybe uping our game
(03:49):
to meet those needs.
Hannah Clark (03:50):
I imagine that you're doing any
TikTok answers lately?
Jean Castanon (03:53):
Not yet.
Hannah Clark (03:54):
Not yet.
That might be anover thing anyway.
I'm not sure people arestill even doing that.
Okay well, let's dive intothe experimentation journey.
So you're scaling from 30tests to over 120 tests
this year, which is crazy.
That's massive growth.
What drove this decisionto ramp up the testing and
experimentation and how do youbuild the organizational muscle
to support that kind of growth?
Jean Castanon (04:15):
You know, scaling that much in just one year in
the US alone is a big leap andit's being driven by a number of
factors, but predominantly two.
First is the increase that we'reseeing to our site in terms of
traffic, which basically givesus a much larger service area
to optimize the experiences for.
Second is our collectivebelief that experimentation
(04:37):
is essential to keeping pacewith evolving customer needs.
So what this scaling looks likein practice, you know, is we had
to structure teams, workflows,and tools to make testing
a core capability, not justan afterthought or something
that we do from time to time.
So we reorganized around adedicated experimentation
(04:57):
team whose hopeful focusis to identify, build, and
run high quality tasks.
And they are also backed by astrong cross-functional support
structure that is alignedaround a single North Star
metric, which in this case isa 10% lift in conversion rate.
So that focus combined withthe support from leadership and
(05:20):
the sponsorship as well as theinvestment that it requires.
Has been really, you know,behind what's helping us to
turbocharge that velocity,but also the impact of the
experimentation program.
Hannah Clark (05:31):
Okay.
So I'm really interested in thenuts and bolts behind aligning
a whole team in order to meetthis 10% conversion lift.
How do you align thesemultiple functions?
We have product, we'vegot design, technology,
analytics, marketing, andget everybody sort of on the
same page working towardsthis one specific trajectory.
How does that work?
Jean Castanon (05:49):
It's not always that easy.
I'm not gonna lie.
But I do think what is importantis to start by defining a
metric that will resonatewith all of the parties.
So in this case, what we didis when we looked at, you know,
from a business perspectiveand marketing conversion
is a measure of growth.
So that it was a meaningfulmetric that resonated
(06:10):
with those functionsfor product and design.
It was a metric thatresonated as well with
our typical objectives.
Because it's about eliminatingfriction in the user experience
and ensuring that the productworks hard and it's meant to be.
And then finally, from a techand analytics perspective,
conversion is a great metricbecause it reflects how
well the systems, you know,availability and performance
(06:32):
metrics are working as well asthe insights are performing.
So conversion became like thiscommon language for progress
and one metric that united thedifferent perspectives to make
sure that this ship kind ofsailed in the same direction.
So we're also focusingin addition, you know, to
having that single NorthStar metric on creating
transparency across the team.
(06:53):
So we share insights, trackingperformance, we establish
regular ceremonies and weidentify what's working and
what's not, because in itselfthat's always evolving as well.
So that clarity, I think,really allowed us to operate
as one system rather than aset of disconnected teams with
different competing goals.
(07:13):
And the result is a muchmore coordinated approach
to optimizing the customeracquisition funnel.
Hannah Clark (07:18):
I would say that this is the dream.
Like I think that this is avery common issue, even with
smaller scaling organizations,to be able to kind of work in
lockstep across departmentswithout this, you know,
siloing getting in the wayof people's overdoing work or
under, you know, not completelyaligning on those functions.
So I think that'sreally innovative.
So let's talk a littlebit about team capacity.
'cause it's one thing to alignall these folks that kind of
(07:41):
towards this one North starmetric, but then managing the
workload and ensuring thatfolks are working sustainably
at a measured pace and notgetting, you know, pulled in
five different directions.
That's a kind ofa different task.
How do you maintain thatkind of focus in a larger
organization when there's alwaysthese competing priorities?
Jean Castanon (07:57):
So I would say the most important thing that we
did here is that we establisheda dedicated team that was solely
focused on experimentation.
So every day when they wakeup, they think about this and
it's pretty, their core focus.
So this ensure that theyaren't pulling all of the other
projects that keep poppingup as priorities evolve.
And their entire remit isjust to run, optimize, and
(08:19):
scale experimentation efforts.
And the second thing that theydo is that they also facilitate
core teams to run experimentson their own by providing
subject matter expertise andproject management support.
On top of that, what we're doingis that we're really looking
at this from three angles.
The first one is froma talent perspective.
So we brought together theright cross-functional mix,
(08:40):
not just across product, butacross design, analytics,
engineering, and many morefunctions including legal.
But we're also upskilling teammembers to say ahead of how the
external landscape is evolving.
Second is the process.
So we're deeply examining eachstep of the full lifecycle.
Of running an experimentall the way from having an
(09:02):
idea through discovery tobuild execution and all the
feedback loops associated withthis, and identifying which
are the steps that have thebottlenecks and fixing them so
that they don't slow us down.
And the last piece, I wouldsay just the third one,
which is very important,is tooling and technology.
So we're obviously constantlyassessing what our tech stack is
(09:23):
here, but we're also partneringwith external vendors that
specialize in experimentation.
Platform so that we canmove faster and stay
focused on what we do best.
Hannah Clark (09:32):
I see.
Okay.
I wanted to press a little biton the results portion because
I think this is something thatevery organization, whether
they're a startup, whetherthey're scaling, whether an
enterprise, we all kind ofdeal with this pressure to
move quickly and especiallyin this climate where, you
know, innovation is movingfaster than it ever has.
The cycles of developmentare just at light
speed at this point.
(09:52):
And so there's an enormousamount of pressure to change
courses when experimentsdon't immediately show lifts
or results in the short term,even if we're quite confident
that progressing with thatexperiment and kind of giving
it some time to mature couldyield long-term results.
So how have you changed themindset organizationally at
American Express, and whatadvice would you give to other
leaders who are kind of facingsome of that similar sort of
(10:13):
cultural and economic pressureto kind of yield results from
experiments and keep moving?
Jean Castanon (10:19):
So I think that there's two pieces there
that I'd like to touch on.
The first one is on the speed.
I think speed is reallyimportant because the faster
you learn, the better sothat you don't actually spend
nine months learning if it'sactually not gonna drive
the outcome that you want.
But then the second one, whichI think is often what is the
biggest challenge, is thisperception that if an experiment
(10:39):
doesn't drive the conversionlift, it's been a failure.
And that's not the case, right?
And that takes alittle bit of time.
And we've shifted that cultureby reframing what success
looks like and we positionlearning as a valuable
outcome in itself, not just aconversion lift, which is our,
still our North Star metric.
(11:00):
So I mentioned earlierthat we have that 10%
lift in conversion.
We also have a robustscorecard that looks at other
experimentation outcomes,which includes velocity, win
rate, the number of variantsthat we're testing, et cetera.
So my advice for otherproduct leaders out there is.
It's ready to invest in buildinga learning culture early.
(11:20):
It takes time and it'ssomething harder to test.
So often the defaultis to launch and just
learn on the back of it.
So make space for the teamsto test ideas without fear
of failure, and ensure thatyou have strong alignment
on both purpose and process.
Hannah Clark (11:36):
All right.
Well, that sounds verysound as far as a process.
I do wanna talk aboutsomething that maybe
a little bit more fun.
We'll go into a case study forthe American Express Referral
Program, which I know hasgrown to become now your second
largest customer acquisitionchannel globally, which is huge,
especially for a company thesize of American Express, but
it scaled from almost nothingover 10 years, so enormous
(11:58):
success there with that program.
So what were the key productdecisions that made this
program successful inyour view, and how did you
scale it internationally?
Jean Castanon (12:07):
Believe it or not, it actually started
in international and itstarted in France and
it then scaled globally.
But one of the key productdecisions we made about our
referral program was to manageit as a true product from
the early days, meaning thatwe thought deeply about the
end-to-end experience andoptimizing for the user journey.
And to do this, we focusedon a few core things.
(12:27):
You know, like the first,I would say the core
infrastructure was reallykey and we needed to make
sure that it's flexibleand scalable underpinning
everything that we do.
And then the second one isreally about simplification.
So making it easy for theuser and making it very
intuitive and seamless.
For example, right now whatwe're doing is we're testing
tactics like QR codes forin-person referrals as well
(12:50):
as asynchronous referralswhere you might want to refer
somebody but have them checkit out when they get home.
So the key is really aboutfacilitating the virality that
we get from the program whilemaintaining the right behaviors.
The next one I would sayis personalization which
has been obviously a hottopic for many years, but.
We use many tactics here,including AI and data
(13:12):
analytics to personalize theincentives that we give to
our members and their friends,but also to personalize the
experience that they see.
And the last really underpinningall of this is controls.
So the same way that wehave reality that is good
behavior, we can havethe opposite behavior.
And facilitating that viralityrequires us to have the right
control so that the programattracts the best customers and
(13:35):
who we want as a result of this.
I would say multiple prongedapproached over the years.
We continue to see a lot ofsuccess with the program,
especially with the youngercohorts of car members where we
see about 75% of our referralsare resulting in millennial
and Gen Z acquisitions.
So this aligns with whatwe're seeing in terms of
also digital behaviors.
(13:56):
These cohorts are veryengaged digitally and they're
also themselves used toreferring more, which is
fueling this viral loop.
Hannah Clark (14:04):
Okay.
I wanna talk a little bitmore, 'cause you mentioned
that AI is kind of one of thekind of tools in your toolkit
right now as you're movingthrough these processes.
I'm curious, what kinds of usecases have you been piloting?
Can you share what you'vebeen exploring and how you're
kind of evaluating whetheror not those the results
that the AI use is yieldingare worth moving forward
with or iterating on those?
Jean Castanon (14:23):
I think from a generative ai it's relatively
early days, but it's definitelygonna have very practical
implications about our productdevelopment and experimentation
processes overall.
Right now we're piloting usecases that are focused more
on internal productivity.
Things like speeding up, howwe're streamlining ideas,
writing them into testablehypotheses, designed to code
(14:46):
translation, and then ourability to iterate faster.
So we're able to experiment withthese tools and with generative
AI because we have thankfully,a technical enablement layer
that provides us with theright guardrails to do that,
which allows our technicalteams to focus on innovation
without reinventing controls.
But I would say it'sstill early days.
Hannah Clark (15:05):
Well, I'd like to talk a little bit about
your storefront as well.
So you mentioned thatyour storefront is kind of
your digital bank branch.
You know, you don'thave physical locations
for people to visit.
How do you approach thepersonalization experience
for prospects who arenew to American Express?
Given that you rely on verydifferent signals than you
know, folks who do have moreof a storefront situation.
Jean Castanon (15:24):
You're spot on that we don't have
physical bank branches likeall our regional banks.
So our website iseffectively our digital bank.
And for new prospects,personalization can become
tricky as we would rely ondigital signals typically to
personalize those experiences.
So what we've done over theyears is build a digital
system that allows us topersonalize dynamically even
(15:44):
as the user progresses throughthe acquisition funnel.
So then as we learn morethrough their interactions,
behavior, declared inputs,we can adapt the products,
the features, the offers theysee, or even the experience.
So we're bringing this testand learn mindset that I
was talking about earlier tothis as well and our digital
storefront is becoming aspace where experimentation is
(16:06):
really core to how we evolvethe experiences, not just the
tool that we use occasionally.
Hannah Clark (16:12):
All right.
And we always wannatalk about trends.
We said before we'd be talkingabout looking two steps ahead.
So when we look at the futureand the trends and technologies
that you believe now couldbe most, most disruptive
to the financial servicescustomer acquisition space,
how is American Expresspositioning itself to stay
ahead of those changes?
Jean Castanon (16:32):
There are a few major trends we're
watching closely, and thisis not the full list, but
the ones that come to mind.
One is obviously the evolutionof customer expectations
around immediacy and relevance.
And I think as AI will becomemore embedded in everyday
consumer tools, that this willbecome even more important.
So we need to continueprioritizing that
(16:53):
personalization that I was justtalking about, but also the
ease of use of our experiencesand of our core acquisition
channels such as, you know,our referral program that,
that we've talked a little bitabout before the second trend.
That is also something we'rewatching very closely, is
the way that users searchfor information online.
(17:13):
And this will continue tochange and it's been changing
for the past few years.
So we're evolving our strategyto stay ahead of the shift.
What search will remain a keyway we engage with users, and
it's shaping both how we thinkabout this from a technology
perspective, but also froma content strategy so that
we keep up with the changesof core consumer behaviors.
And a final trend I'llmention is the change of
(17:35):
competitive landscape.
We're not just fighting forshare of wallet and attention
with the traditional issuers.
Fintechs are now prolificand they're really defining
also what user expectationsare from a digital
experience perspective is.
So, I truly believethat our ability to test
and learn at speed willbecome a differentiator.
(17:59):
So that's why we're investing somuch in this infrastructure that
we were talking about earlier inthe podcast because modernizing
our digital storefront and ourbranch experiences as well as
upskilling our teams acrossall the functions that make
this a reality to become moreagile, is gonna be really
key to win in the space.
So we're very deliberate aboutfuture proofing this and why
(18:20):
we build, so our systems andprocesses are durable, flexible,
and not reliant on one person.
For one team.
And I think that last pieceis also very important.
Hannah Clark (18:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's an ongoing process torefine all of those aspects.
Well, thank you so much now,this has been wonderful.
I really appreciate you takingthe time out of your super
busy schedule to chat with us.
Where can folks continue theconversation with you online?
Jean Castanon (18:43):
You can find me on LinkedIn.
Thank you very muchfor having me today.
I really enjoyed our chat.
Hannah Clark (18:48):
Me too.
Thanks so much.
Take care.
Thanks for listening in.
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