Becoming a parent profoundly changes how you approach product leadership, blending personal and professional challenges in unexpected ways. Anuj Jhunjhunwala, Director of Product at Merge, shares how parenting teaches lessons in influence without authority, clear communication, and time management that directly apply to leading products.
Anuj offers candid insights on how managing toddlers parallels managing stakeholders, why career growth feels more like navigating a mountain than climbing a ladder, and the paradoxes that trip up many product managers today. This conversation reveals the surprising overlaps between parenting and product leadership, offering fresh perspectives for anyone balancing both worlds.
Resources from this episode:
- Subscribe to The Product Manager newsletter
- Connect with Anuj on LinkedIn
- Check out Merge
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hannah Clark (00:01):
Whether we admit it or not, our personal lives
and professional lives are moreintertwined than ever—after
all, remote work is less abouttaking your work with you and
more about folding it into thebroader context of your life.
Today's conversation exploressomething we rarely discuss
openly; how becoming a parentfundamentally reshapes your
approach to product leadership.
And as a parent myself, letme just say that negotiating
(00:23):
a bedtime routine and managingstakeholder expectations
ain't so different.
My guest today is AnujJhunjhunwala, Director
of Product at Merge, whospent 15 years building a
career across finance andtech, including stints at
Lyft and various startups.
But it's his newest role asa dad that's teaching him
unexpected lessons aboutinfluence without authority,
communicating without filters,and why career growth might be
(00:44):
more like charting a path up amountain than climbing a ladder.
You'll hear his refreshinglyhonest takes on everything from
how becoming a parent forces youto time-box like never before,
and why managing toddlersmight be the ultimate training
ground for product management.
Plus, we tackle some ofthe paradoxes of modern
product leadership thattrip up even experience PMs.
Let's jump in.
(01:04):
Oh, by the way, wehold conversations
like this every week.
So if this sounds interestingto you, why not subscribe?
Okay, now let's jump in.
Welcome back to theProduct Manager podcast.
I'm here with Anuj Jhunjhunwala.
He's the Directorof Product at Merge.
Anuj, thank you forjoining me today.
Anuj J (01:22):
Thanks for having me on.
I'm so excited.
Hannah Clark (01:23):
So today we're gonna be focusing on how
parenting really impacts ourapproach to product leadership.
So I'm a parent and Anujyou're a parent, and that's
great, but not everyonewho's listening is gonna be
a parent, and that's okay.
I think that our goaltoday is just to make
these insights applicable.
What's the insider intel fromthe parents to the non-parents?
What can you learn from havingto take care of little humans
(01:45):
about managing big humans?
To kick us off Anuj, what hasbeen the biggest impact of
parenting on your approachto product leadership?
Anuj Jhunjhunwal (01:54):
Yeah, totally.
I think there's a fewthings that come to mind.
I have two small kids,one's four years old and
one's six months old.
It's funny, a few years agobefore having the first kid, I
would never have thought thatthere's a link here at all.
And obviously there's amillion different ways that
there are difference between,being a PM and having kids.
But I think it forces you outof your comfort zone, right?
Like physically, you areconstantly tired and the
(02:15):
responsibility you haveover another human is just
on a completely differentlevel than anything
you've done before this.
And so I've seen it dothings to me on a personal
level that have translatedwell to what I do at work.
So the first thing is liketoddlers simply just don't
have any filters, right?
They react with raw emotionto everything they do.
It's largely physical, right?
They like literally cannotmanage their emotions.
(02:35):
They don't know how to do that.
And in a funny way, it's likea very interesting opportunity
to reflect on how I handle,very candid speaking talking
to someone who does notfilter their emotions at all.
And it's funny how likecompanies spend a lot of
time and energy creatingthis environment of radical
candor and not overlymasking our emotions.
And so in a lot of waysit has made me more
(02:56):
level-headed, right?
How do I remove the emotionfrom the conversation we're
having and really try to guidethis to where I want it to go?
Which kind of leads me tothe second point, which is
that you have to communicatevery concisely, right?
So long explanationsdon't work with a toddler.
You're not gonna sit downand be like, this is why
you have to go to bed now.
There's no essay oryou can write, or long
(03:16):
speech you can give here.
You have to really just condensedown what you're trying to say.
And it's not about forming thebest argument or having the
most well-reasoned explanation.
It's about, how do I boildown whatever I'm trying
to say to the essence sothat I can be effective,
which I'm still working on.
I don't know if I've likeperfectly gotten it down
to a science of how toget someone to sleep.
It's hard to do that.
Which maybe reads to thethird point, which is
(03:36):
that you're always justexperimenting, right?
So as parents, I think we're,none of us really know what
we're doing, we are just relyingon instinct for, is it obvious?
Yeah, it's instinct.
It's like some mix of thesame parenting podcasts
and books that we all read.
There's a lot of ChatGPT atthis point, honestly, a mix
of the two or three where I'mlike asking ChatGPT what like
(03:57):
certain parenting expertswould say about certain things.
And so I think we're justlike constantly tweaking
what are we doing to seewhat outcome we want to get.
Which is, the outcomesare very stark when
it comes to parenting.
It, it's very concrete did thattime go smoothly or are we still
arguing at 10 (04:11):
00 PM about why you should be going to sleep?
And so the takeaway thereis that it's okay to figure
things out as you go.
And I feel like productmanagement is one of those
things where you feel likeyou perfectionism, I think
it kinda like naturallytracks type a perfectionist.
It's okay to not knowwhat you're doing.
It's okay to figure outas you go, because the
reality is you're gonnafigure it out as you go.
(04:32):
There's gonna be new challengesyou haven't thought about, and
there's gonna be new ways ofdoing things or new team members
or new dynamics on the teamthat you need to work with.
And so it's been a veryrefreshing exercise and just
like taking a step back andthinking about, I don't have
the answer to everything,and that's totally fine.
Those are three thingsthat come to mind.
I know I'm gonna come upwith other things over the
years, but this is justsome early reflections,
Hannah Clark (04:52):
those all resonate with me strongly and kinda when
you're talking about trying tocondense things to the essence.
Something that popped intomy mind is like, and also try
and frame it in a way whereit sounds like it serves
their best interest in a waythat they understand, which I
think is also very applicableto, the work you're doing.
Like you're not justtrying to get your point
across, but you're alsotrying to communicate
(05:14):
what's in it for them.
That's a constant strugglewhere I'm, my instinct is to try
and argue from my perspective,defend my point of view.
But ultimately, if I wannabe like, I have to choose,
do I want to be right ordo I wanna be effective?
And so to be effective, I reallyhave to be meeting, I have a
three-year-old, so I have tobe meeting him where he is and
that is a practice and an art.
(05:37):
Yeah, that kind of leadsinto on the next question,
which is, you've describedparenting before as the ultimate
test of influencing withoutauthority, which I love.
How has this perspectiveshaped your management style
and stakeholder relationships?
I have a few ideas, but I'dlove to hear it from you.
Anuj Jhunjhunwal (05:52):
Yeah, totally.
I think the big thinghere is that no matter who
you're working with, ifit's a three-year-old or
coworkers and obviouslyagain like very different
situations, but you can'treally change someone, right?
You can't force someoneto do something that they
ultimately don't wanna do.
So there's no world inwhich, even though you're
the parent here, and ina lot of ways, being a
parent is authority, right?
(06:12):
You cannot force a 4-year-oldto eat their vegetables or to
go to bed by a certain time.
They have to wanna do it.
And so it comes back topersuasion and storytelling,
which is a lot of whatas a product manager
you're doing, right?
And so how do you create theright environment in which
your stakeholders understandyour thought process?
Why is this all important?
How does this allkind of tie together?
(06:33):
So much of this job is,it ties back to that
storytelling piece that reallyresonates with having kids.
I know it contradicts theprevious point about being
concise, but it still comesback to the same point of if you
wanna run faster, like you gottaeat your vegetables, right?
If you wanna have energytomorrow morning, you have
to go to sleep sooner.
And it's like this, almost likethis vision of, what you're
(06:54):
gonna do tomorrow and why todaymatters for you concisely again,
and then repeating yourself.
So just making sure that you,in anything you do, right?
So much of this job is justrepeating yourself constantly
across different mediums,whether it's a doc, and then
you say the same thing inSlack and they say a thing
same thing in all hands.
I dunno.
There's interesting parallelshere where it's trying to
incept or inflect a behaviorchange on someone else.
(07:18):
And the way you do that isjust through the sheer art of
persuasion and storytellingand getting someone else
to understand your point ofview and like why you want
it to happen, which is justa really fascinating kind of
connection that I never in amillion years would've thought
about making between thesetwo very different things.
Hannah Clark (07:35):
Sorry, I have to jump in with this because this
is, I've been on this same kindof thought train recently and
it's so funny how your approachto your career influences your
parenting style and vice versa.
And my backgroundis in marketing.
A breakthrough that Irecently had because like
food is a constant, iffood is a constant battle.
And I realized everythingexists on YouTube.
(07:56):
Like the mediums and thechannels that speak to my
child are not so differentfrom the marketing mediums
that speak to users.
So why am I not using thatskillset to my advantage?
My kid does not respond well tome, just verbally saying it's
like a, the difference betweena sales call, like a cold call
versus having them go throughthe whole customer journey of
(08:16):
like, why, what I want them todo is the right thing to do.
So for example, my kid currentlyis just in such a resistant
food picky phase and I wantedto make spaghetti and meatballs,
which is a new food for him.
And so I thought, you know what?
I'm not going in cold.
I'm gonna market spaghettiand meatballs to him.
We're gonna watch YouTubevideos about spaghetti and
(08:38):
meatballs, how great they are.
And he is gonna see otherkids loving them and gonna see
cartoon spaghetti meatballsbouncing around and sure
enough cleaned his plate.
And I'm like, I haveunlocked a breakthrough here.
Like you have to marketto your kids sometimes.
If you wanna get over thathump of, there's gonna be
resistance, like you haveto really apply some of
that skillset into the job.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (08:58):
No, totally.
In many ways it's playing iton hard mode with a toddler,
just because they, again, liketo the first point, there's the
emotions are just so raw andunfiltered, and you don't see
that in the workplace, right?
There's times when youtalk to someone and maybe
join a new company, and theculture's very different,
and the response you get ismuch more blunt than you're
expecting, and it's kinda whoa.
That was like not expectedwith a toddler, it's just like
(09:19):
that for four hours a day.
More than that, right?
You just it's just unfiltered.
And it's because they don'tknow how to filter themselves.
And so it's how doyou react to that?
How do you work with that?
How do you mold them, anticipateit and mold them into adults
and, bigger kids after that.
And yeah, it's just, it'sinteresting how much there's
a connection here that,again, I would never have
put these things together,but it's all, we're all
(09:40):
learning lessons as we go,
Hannah Clark (09:41):
oh, for sure.
And I think that it's niceto have this, yeah, it really
forces you to question yourassumptions 'cause you realize
that as we get older, westill feel the same emotions.
We're just better atmanaging and masking them.
If you get in the habit athome of boiling things down
and kind of meeting peoplewhere they're at, I think that
really just makes you I foundthis made me a more effective
(10:02):
communicator in general.
But anyway, we can talk aboutthis specific point probably
for an entire episode.
Let's move on.
So let's talk about in someinherent contradictions
in product management.
We'll depart from parentingfor just a moment.
So what are some of theparadoxes you've encountered
throughout your careerthat have contradictory?
You've mentioned a few already.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (10:21):
Yeah, I think there's a few that come
to mind, and I'm happy togo deeper on any of these.
It's like the first one thathas been more applicable,
the further I've gotten in mycareer is people will always
want you to say yes to certainthings, both internally and
externally at your company,but they're also way more,
they're significantly moreokay with you saying no
than you think they are.
(10:42):
That's the first one.
The second one is, I thinkthe way you write is extremely
important, but no one readsanything, both and like
internally and externally.
And I think that's justbecause people have a lot of
things going on and everyone'sattention is more precious
now than it has ever been.
And the third thing is thatcareer growth seems linear,
but is absolutely not.
That last one may be less ofa paradox or a contradiction
(11:02):
and just like a, somethingthat just took me by surprise
starting out my career.
It seems so linear whenyou're just starting out and
then over time you realizethat it absolutely is not.
Hannah Clark (11:11):
I am a little bit curious about your,
the non-linear career thing'cause you're talking a
little bit about applyingskill sets and it's funny.
I think you realize as yougo through these transitions,
whether it's from one jobtitle to the next, or from
a non-parent to a parent,a lot of the skills that
you accumulate over timeare actually a lot more
applicable than you expected.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (11:30):
Yeah, I think it's actually funny.
So when you start off in,I remember early in my
career, I would read theWikipedia page for some CEO
or famous person, right?
And it's always verysuccinct in a way.
It's like this persongraduated from college in
2000, they started workingat this company by 2007.
They were like head ofNorth America 2010, their
(11:51):
global head 2015, their CEO.
You're like, wow,that's very linear.
They just kept growing up inthis company, and it feels like
you're, there's just so muchdetail in there that you're not
seeing in that article, and likeno one goes into depth about
the decision making process thattook them from starting at this
company to then becoming head ofNorth America, it is just like
a, that's a big jump and there'sa lot hidden in that seven
(12:12):
years that you don't read about.
Partly, I think there'sa selection bias, right?
Because you're seeing howsuccessful people got to
where they are and you think,how do I get to that point?
The reality I think, is thatwhen you're doing the work
and trying to get to the nextlevel and grow your career,
it's not a checklist, right?
Nor is it this like linearladder up these different rungs.
It's more like you're chartingyour path up a hill and
(12:34):
there's like multiple differentpaths you can get there.
Sometimes you have to gothrough the forest a little bit
and the skills that get you apromotion aren't necessarily
the skills that make yousuccessful in that next role.
When you get to the nextrole, you have a different
criteria, different rule book, adifferent set of a rubric, that
you're being compared against.
And so something I've realizedmore and more over time is.
Your career is aproduct itself, right?
You just happen tobe the user of it.
(12:55):
And so it's all aboutjust, again, like if you
would think about anyother thing as a product.
What are your specific needs?
What do you do really wellthat other people don't,
and what are your gaps?
What do you do?
Not as well as other people.
Just really introspect andthink about what those, what
are the jobs, what are the rolesor things that you want to do
that push yourself on thosegaps and make yourself better,
and get you to the next levelwhere you can then stretch
(13:16):
on some other things as well.
When I started out, I was likemanaging people is this like
milestone that I have to have?
It's not for everyone, right?
There are PMs that areway better as ICs and
want to go down that path.
So really just thinkabout what is it that you
want to get out of it.
It's not checking the box, it'sthis random path up a hill.
And I have to think about,what does that path look like?
(13:38):
Because this can bedifferent for everyone.
Hannah Clark (13:40):
Yeah I really agree and I think that this
is something that I've learnedearly in my career that
I've always been sensitiveto is that strong ICs don't
necessarily make strong leaders.
Leadership and management isa skillset of its own, and
you can be an awesome leaderand not that good of an IC.
We equate them, but theydo take a very specific
(14:00):
set of competencies.
And leadership specificallyis an interesting one because
it's not really something thatyou learn to excel at until
you're already in that capacity.
You can have a lot of qualitiesthat help you develop faster,
and you may might have anaptitude for it, but I had
a conversation recently withAndrew Saxe at Smartling
(14:21):
about how that's somethingthat I'm wondering is maybe a
byproduct of this AI revolution.
Whether, because we're nowoperating as overseers of
sort of digital interns,whether it's going to start
to indoctrinate like more of amanagerial resource management
mindset into people beforethey reach a leadership level.
But of course you have tolayer on like the soft skills
(14:41):
and that kind of thing.
So I don't know.
There might be something there.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (14:43):
That's really interesting.
Yeah.
It's almost like an internthat stays an intern forever.
Obviously the models get betterover time, but like you're
learning how to delegate in alot of ways without having to
manage the upward trajectory ofthis person or this not person,
that's really interesting.
I, yeah I'm curious obviouslyI think we're all in the
same boat here trying tofigure out where AI goes
and how it helps us in ourcareers, like in a few years.
Sorry.
Yeah, that, that was afascinating point I just
(15:04):
wanted to jump in on.
Hannah Clark (15:05):
It's one that I've been interested in exploring.
I think it's interesting to seehow that shift in mindset, like
obviously we're gonna be usingthe tools more effectively and
the baseline capabilities ofAI are going to grow with us.
So yeah, it might stayan intern forever.
Which also begs the questionwhat becomes of the interns?
Like what's thepathway to becoming a
(15:25):
subject matter expert?
It might be that youjust become a really good
manager really early.
That's kinda cool.
Back on track.
I do wanna talk a little bitmore about your other assertion
that no one reads anything.
As a editor of a publication,I take offense to that.
No, I'm just kidding.
I actually think I,you're absolutely right.
That's why we have such growthin mediums like this one.
You know so much as avideo first and people's
(15:46):
attention spans dwindle.
There's so much stuff that'scompeting for our attention,
but how do you reckon with that?
How have you navigatedthat in your work?
Anuj Jhunjhunwal (15:54):
Yeah, totally.
I think I'm definitely oneof those people who obsesses
over every word, when it comesto writing things in college,
for example, or, yeah, I guesscollege is a great example.
Like I, I would spendmore time editing than
I spent actually writingthe initial draft, right?
And just like constantlyrefining the words.
I think, obviously goodwriting absolutely makes
a difference, right?
(16:15):
So there's the storytellingpiece again, which is, why
should we build this thing?
What did we learnfrom this experiment?
What's our vision for theproduct or for the company?
And all of that needsto be expressed.
And I think there's writingas an exercise and like
carving out time to do thatis a great way to refine
your own thoughts and thinkabout structuring arguments.
And just putting wordson paper is super
valuable as an exercise.
(16:35):
I think the reality also isthat people, to the point of the
contradiction, just don't havetime to read everything, right?
So everyone's busy, everyone'sgot a million Slack messages
and emails and things to do.
Prior to this, obviously I wasat Lyft, which is, B2C, and then
you're, if you have competitors,there's other, they can take
an Uber, they can just sit athome and watch Netflix instead
of going somewhere, right?
So there's like physicallya limit to the amount
(16:57):
of time people can spendreading anything you
put in front of them.
One thing that's always kindastruck me as interesting is that
even Amazon, is famous for theselike six page memos and carving
out time to read these things.
They have to carve outthe time in the meeting to
read it because they knowthat prior to the meeting,
no one's gonna read it.
They don't have time to read it.
And so I think what reallythis translates to is it's
really just about makingyourself impossible to ignore.
(17:19):
So bullets, bolding, makingsure you highlight the right
things, making sure thatyou write TLDR is the top
of documents so that people.
What are the three thingsabout the stock that
I have to take away?
If this is not somethingthat I'm interested in, I can
move on to the next thing.
And then just repeating yourselfacross multiple channels.
So in the doc itself, in Slack,in a meeting, in your all
hands, finding your audiencefor whatever it is that you're
(17:39):
trying to say, and findingthe audience, meeting the
audience where they wannabe met, and what forum or
medium works best for them.
Hannah Clark (17:46):
Yeah.
Now we're drifting right backinto the overlap with parenting.
Where you have to repeatyourself so many times in
so many contexts, and it'smaddening, but it also starts
to make sense because yourealize that people, generally
speaking, really don't absorbnew information easily the first
time, and especially if you'reasking them to adopt a behavior.
(18:08):
Yeah, repetition is critical.
I spoke to Debbie McMahon atthe Financial Times about this
as well, where she's she's aCPO and she's still beating the
drum of you have to continueto repeat yourself way more
than you think you have to.
Because communicationthat's effective isn't about
being like I told you, andtherefore you should know.
It's about making sure thatit's landing, like you said,
(18:29):
with your audience, and that'ssomething that I'm having
to remind myself constantly.
It's oh my goodness, like howmany times do I have to tell
you how to wash your hands?
I know you know how to dothis, but sometimes a change
in context really can feellike it's a new thing.
There's new rules likethat behavior hasn't
really locked in yet.
It's not second nature, andthat takes a lot of time.
Impatience.
(18:50):
But anyway, let's move right on.
So now we're talking aboutoutcomes and naturally
efficiency as well.
We're talking about as well,how has your thinking about
efficiency and outcomes evolvedsince you've become a parent
and you've got more of apremium on the time in a day?
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (19:06):
I think quite literally, it just forces me
to time box things to an extentthat I was not doing before.
There's some people whoare just really good at
I, this is my work time.
I'm gonna get as much done asI can here, and then I'm at
home, or I'm doing somethingelse and I'm tuned off, right?
I think I was never reallygood at that separation.
(19:26):
So with kids, youhave no choice, right?
I'm at the office from X to Xor X to Y, and in this time I
have to get as much done as Ican because I know when I get
home, if I open up my laptop infront of my kids, A it's just
not great for a relationship.
You wanna make sure that youseparate these things out.
B, my son wants to just playwith my laptop, so physically
I cannot get work done ifI'm sitting next to them.
(19:46):
And so I just have to makesure that, the overall
amount of work that I needto do does not change.
It's, there'sstill expectations.
There's still things that Ihave to get done, and so I
just have to make sure thatI'm still as productive as
I can be during the day.
So I think it really justcomes down to, it's been a
really strong forcing functionfor me to make sure that I
compartmentalize and makesure that I'm as productive
as I can be when I'm atthe office, because this is
(20:09):
my time to get work done.
It really helps to separatethese things and make sure that
I'm as productive as I can be.
Hannah Clark (20:14):
Yeah I'm finding the same thing.
In my journey, I feel likethere's, from time to time I
have to really sit down andlook at my routine, especially
when there's a big change.
If you have, you start a schooland you've got that to take
into account, or you havea new project or something
that's impacted the way thatyou need to run your time.
Sometimes I'll have to sit downand think, okay, the way that
I was managing my time before,it's no longer serving me.
(20:37):
How do I need to rearrange myweek or my every other week or
my month in order to ensure thatI've appropriately delegated
myself time to do these thingsbecause yeah, just like you.
I know that beforedaycare and after pickup,
it's not happening.
So like that time you reallyhad to take it so seriously
(20:58):
and be so deliberate.
And I think that also reallyforces you to prioritize too.
Like you really have to bethinking very consciously,
what are the things that area non-negotiable for this
day, and that I find is nice.
It's simplified my life in away where, there was a time
when I didn't have thosesame limitations and it was
just like a free for all,which meant sometimes it
(21:19):
would just do a lot of lowhanging fruit, which was good.
It would feel productive,but the big stuff would just
flounder, but now that it'slike no, this is my time to tack
away at the big stuff and thenthe low hanging fruit can wait.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (21:33):
Totally.
The low leverage stuffcan be something that,
like I we're making a bigquestion I think a lot of
companies do in this, right?
Where, how do you use AI tojust move faster internally?
And how do you the low leveragestuff is the stuff that's
so easy to automate away.
And this is a strong forcingfunction for, I could spend
30 minutes doing this, orI could find a way to write
a script or do somethingthat just does it for me.
(21:54):
And you're forced to do that,which is kinda refreshing in
the sense that it really doeslet you focus on the high
priority things and you're like,I have nine hours to do this.
I just have to do it, which ishonestly refreshing in a way
to be able to focus like that.
Hannah Clark (22:06):
Yeah.
You realize how many littlethings in your day kind of chip
away at your focus and yourmental energy and it really
doesn't take, I don't know,I can't speak for everybody.
I find that it really takesa lot less than I think to do
such a significant dent intomy mental energy that it's
like I just feels like that bigthing that I want to get around
to it seems insurmountable.
(22:28):
So yeah, likedoing what you can.
And I do think that there issomething to be said about
finding ways to honor thattime, block it away, automate,
whatever you can do toprotect time and be conscious
of your own shortcomings,not just as a parent.
We're always so aware of those,but as, yeah, as a functioning
human being, as a person on ateam, like being aware that, you
(22:50):
know what, like if I really, ifthis thing that I'm trying to
do requires my full focus fora day, and if I even attempt
to do any context switching,I'm gonna derail my whole self.
I have to be aware of that andnot try and work against it.
So yeah, it's I think thathas been a big breakthrough
for me also, like in parentingis like really being more
deliberate about making choicesthat align with the real me
(23:12):
and not the me that I wannabe, and trying to really meet
myself where I'm at, 'causeyeah, like you're not just
trying to meet your kid, you'realso trying to meet yourself.
Make sure that you aretaking care of yourself.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (23:21):
Totally.
It's a delicate balance.
Hannah Clark (23:23):
Yeah.
I feel like this is atheoretical conversation in some
ways, but it's really hitting.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (23:27):
Yep.
Hannah Clark (23:28):
We'll pivot away from parenting for
a little while longer.
So you spent some time at Lyftand you mentioned you wanted to
return to like more of a faster,like a smaller environment.
And this is interestingbecause I think that smaller
environments have pros andcons, just like enterprises.
So what specific advantages haveyou found in smaller companies
as far as outcome deliverables?
And are you happywith your decision?
Anuj Jhunjhun (23:46):
Oh yeah, totally.
There's a few things that cometo mind in how smaller companies
ship faster that I've seen.
So I think one thing is thatthere's stronger context
across the team, right?
So it's like when we say we'regonna build something, or this
is a problem, we need to fixthe amount of work he needs
to do to convince someone thatis the case is just much lower
(24:07):
because everyone is naturallycloser to the customer.
They're naturallycloser to the problem.
So what used to be a longdocument or a series of meetings
in which you're like, buildthis case, we're doing something
at a smaller co company isoh yeah, this is obvious.
This is clear.
We should do this.
So that's one thing.
You just move fasterbecause of that naturally.
I think the second thingis tactically you just have
fewer layers of approval aswell, so there's no running
(24:29):
up the chain, five layersto get something approved.
The company's much more flat.
It's just smaller.
There's fewer people.
There's fewer ways tostructure a pyramid like this.
I think the last thing is thatsmaller company, especially a
startup, especially one that isin an industry where you have
to move fast, like software,like there is no mode, right?
You just have to outexecute everyone else.
Is that I think you have aselection bias for people who
(24:50):
just wanna work hard, right?
Like you don't comehere to rest, invest.
You come here to build somethingand see that payoff directly
into this product that youhave a lot of influence over.
And so I think thosekind of three things
come together, right?
Like you have a team that'sjust very close to what
they're doing, such thatyou don't have to convince
people to a strong degreeinternally to do something
because people understandthe problem inherently.
(25:12):
And then you have thisgroup of people that
just wants to work hard.
And those two things togethermeans that you have people
who are type A, willing togrind, who can take this
problem they see and havehigh agency in fixing it.
And I think that kind of, thatat some big companies, but
it's the fact that there'sjust more layers means that
the bigger company movesat just a different speed.
And they both have the prosand cons, honestly, but that's
(25:33):
just what I've enjoyed aboutworking at a smaller company.
Hannah Clark (25:35):
Yeah, I think this honestly ties back a lot into
that knowing yourself piece.
Because I think the environment,again, it just about knowing
what kind of environment hasthe payoff that you need to
feel energized about the work,which is I think another, we're
talking about driving factors.
Like where you're gonna findthat satisfaction in the role.
(25:57):
And I've talked to peopleon all areas of the spectrum
as far as the environmentsthat they're drawn into.
And I can totally, Iappreciate and identify with
what you're saying aboutbeing drawn to the small
company mindset, that reallyagile, reactive, tight team.
I think that's, for me, Ireally see that sweet spot
as a team that's stillsmall, but in growth mode
(26:19):
where things are exciting.
Maybe you've just foundproduct market fit, you're
really starting to take off.
And that excitement and theenergy and the kinda, and that
the scent of success reallyseems to galvanize the team
to really buy into the vision.
And I really love that energy.
But it's funny how, thefundamental way that a team
operates changes as the companymatures and then you can start
(26:41):
to find that you lose thatsame energy because you lose
that peace that you reallyresonated with that Got you so
energized in the first place.
I know people who feel likethey are at their absolute
best solving the problemsof a company that's like
really in scale up mode.
And to me that's oh,that is so stressful.
(27:01):
Great for you, but that'severybody's got their thing
that they're drawn to.
There's folks who just reallythrive in that enterprise
environment where theyreally like the intricacies
of, that level of business.
And so it's interesting toothat, that we're talking
about seeing yourself in yourcareer and you're making your
career product and being awareof like yourself as a user.
(27:21):
What are your preferences?
What are you drawn to?
How do you market yourown career to yourself?
And if your environment isfundamentally changing 'cause
of the nature of the business,not taking that personally,
just realizing that maybethis is just not aligned
with what keeps you going.
Anuj Jhunjhunwal (27:38):
Yeah, totally.
And also recognizing that, soyour needs are gonna change
over time and the company isgonna change over time and there
are times when you might beinterested in different things,
and that's totally fine, right?
There's a world where someonewho's fresh outta college,
junior in their career mightbe better served at a startup
or might be better servedat a bigger company, right?
If you thrive in kind ofambiguous spaces and driving
(28:00):
forward things, knowing thatthere might not be a clear
answer, then you're probablybetter off at a startup.
But if you want the resourcesof a bigger company, then a
bigger company makes more sense.
And it's like this tradeoff where you have to like
really think about it.
It's not gonna be thesame answer for everyone.
And that's again, totally fine.
Hannah Clark (28:14):
Yeah, like I think that's, again, I'm tying
it back to parenting, but Ifeel like that's another thing
that you recognize as you getto know your child and their
nuances, you recognize thata behavior, for example, that
maybe is unpleasant isn'tnecessarily a bad thing.
It's an indicator, but it's ifmy kid is really stubborn and
(28:35):
really set in his ways and it's,it's, it may be irritating to
me in the moment as the personwho's responsible for him.
It's but this also points toa characteristic about him.
And it's, like you're yeahseeing the world through that
lens is pretty transformativebecause you start to you
stop ascribing like moralvalues to things and just
more of things, seeing themas oh, this is an indicator.
(28:56):
This is just like a...
Anuj Jhunjhun (28:57):
It is what it is.
Yeah.
Hannah Clark (28:58):
It is what it is, and you just
have to roll with it.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (29:00):
Yep, totally.
I hear you.
Hannah Clark (29:02):
This is a very different kind of conversation
than what we normally havebecause I feel like there's
something here that is justa lot bigger than work.
I really feel like the essenceof this conversation is
really just like seeing howparenting just changes the
way that you see the world andyou I don't know it, that's
a very nothing statement,but does that make sense?
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (29:25):
Yeah, no, it totally does.
It's in switching careers,every job you have, you take
away something from it, right?
And it all contributesback to the next job.
And like how you improvein your career and kind
of move your way up.
It's no different here.
Like parenting is a differentthing you're doing and you
learn something from it.
Again, we're all just tryingto figure this out as we go.
And so it's all about takingwhat you've learned, applying
(29:47):
it, really pushing yourself andthinking about where you want
to go with it and experimenting,which is kinda the fun of it.
Hannah Clark (29:55):
The fun of it indeed.
Thank you so muchfor joining me, Anuj.
This was really enjoyable.
It's really nice to be ableto talk about our learned
experiences outside of workand kind of, I don't know,
I like talking about my son.
Where can people followyour work online?
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (30:07):
Thanks for having me here.
This was great.
I really enjoyedthe conversation.
LinkedIn is probably best.
I'm trying to post a littlebit more there, so just
search for me and I lookforward to connecting.
This is really excitingstuff to talk through.
Hannah Clark (30:17):
Yeah, likewise.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Anuj Jhunjhunwal (30:19):
Appreciate it.
Take care.
Hannah Clark (30:23):
Thanks for listening in.
For more great insights,how-to guides and tool reviews,
subscribe to our newsletter attheproductmanager.com/subscribe.
You can hear more conversationslike this by subscribing to
the Product Manager whereveryou get your podcasts.
Whether we admit it or not, our personal lives
and professional lives are moreintertwined than ever—after
all, remote work is less abouttaking your work with you and
more about folding it into thebroader context of your life.
Today's conversation exploressomething we rarely discuss
openly; how becoming a parentfundamentally reshapes your
approach to product leadership.
And as a parent myself, letme just say that negotiating
(00:23):
a bedtime routine and managingstakeholder expectations
ain't so different.
My guest today is AnujJhunjhunwala, Director
of Product at Merge, whospent 15 years building a
career across finance andtech, including stints at
Lyft and various startups.
But it's his newest role asa dad that's teaching him
unexpected lessons aboutinfluence without authority,
communicating without filters,and why career growth might be
(00:44):
more like charting a path up amountain than climbing a ladder.
You'll hear his refreshinglyhonest takes on everything from
how becoming a parent forces youto time-box like never before,
and why managing toddlersmight be the ultimate training
ground for product management.
Plus, we tackle some ofthe paradoxes of modern
product leadership thattrip up even experience PMs.
Let's jump in.
(01:04):
Oh, by the way, wehold conversations
like this every week.
So if this sounds interestingto you, why not subscribe?
Okay, now let's jump in.
Welcome back to theProduct Manager podcast.
I'm here with Anuj Jhunjhunwala.
He's the Directorof Product at Merge.
Anuj, thank you forjoining me today.
Anuj J (01:22):
Thanks for having me on.
I'm so excited.
Hannah Clark (01:23):
So today we're gonna be focusing on how
parenting really impacts ourapproach to product leadership.
So I'm a parent and Anujyou're a parent, and that's
great, but not everyonewho's listening is gonna be
a parent, and that's okay.
I think that our goaltoday is just to make
these insights applicable.
What's the insider intel fromthe parents to the non-parents?
What can you learn from havingto take care of little humans
(01:45):
about managing big humans?
To kick us off Anuj, what hasbeen the biggest impact of
parenting on your approachto product leadership?
Anuj Jhunjhunwal (01:54):
Yeah, totally.
I think there's a fewthings that come to mind.
I have two small kids,one's four years old and
one's six months old.
It's funny, a few years agobefore having the first kid, I
would never have thought thatthere's a link here at all.
And obviously there's amillion different ways that
there are difference between,being a PM and having kids.
But I think it forces you outof your comfort zone, right?
Like physically, you areconstantly tired and the
(02:15):
responsibility you haveover another human is just
on a completely differentlevel than anything
you've done before this.
And so I've seen it dothings to me on a personal
level that have translatedwell to what I do at work.
So the first thing is liketoddlers simply just don't
have any filters, right?
They react with raw emotionto everything they do.
It's largely physical, right?
They like literally cannotmanage their emotions.
(02:35):
They don't know how to do that.
And in a funny way, it's likea very interesting opportunity
to reflect on how I handle,very candid speaking talking
to someone who does notfilter their emotions at all.
And it's funny how likecompanies spend a lot of
time and energy creatingthis environment of radical
candor and not overlymasking our emotions.
And so in a lot of waysit has made me more
(02:56):
level-headed, right?
How do I remove the emotionfrom the conversation we're
having and really try to guidethis to where I want it to go?
Which kind of leads me tothe second point, which is
that you have to communicatevery concisely, right?
So long explanationsdon't work with a toddler.
You're not gonna sit downand be like, this is why
you have to go to bed now.
There's no essay oryou can write, or long
(03:16):
speech you can give here.
You have to really just condensedown what you're trying to say.
And it's not about forming thebest argument or having the
most well-reasoned explanation.
It's about, how do I boildown whatever I'm trying
to say to the essence sothat I can be effective,
which I'm still working on.
I don't know if I've likeperfectly gotten it down
to a science of how toget someone to sleep.
It's hard to do that.
Which maybe reads to thethird point, which is
(03:36):
that you're always justexperimenting, right?
So as parents, I think we're,none of us really know what
we're doing, we are just relyingon instinct for, is it obvious?
Yeah, it's instinct.
It's like some mix of thesame parenting podcasts
and books that we all read.
There's a lot of ChatGPT atthis point, honestly, a mix
of the two or three where I'mlike asking ChatGPT what like
(03:57):
certain parenting expertswould say about certain things.
And so I think we're justlike constantly tweaking
what are we doing to seewhat outcome we want to get.
Which is, the outcomesare very stark when
it comes to parenting.
It, it's very concrete did thattime go smoothly or are we still
arguing at 10 (04:11):
00 PM about why you should be going to sleep?
And so the takeaway thereis that it's okay to figure
things out as you go.
And I feel like productmanagement is one of those
things where you feel likeyou perfectionism, I think
it kinda like naturallytracks type a perfectionist.
It's okay to not knowwhat you're doing.
It's okay to figure outas you go, because the
reality is you're gonnafigure it out as you go.
(04:32):
There's gonna be new challengesyou haven't thought about, and
there's gonna be new ways ofdoing things or new team members
or new dynamics on the teamthat you need to work with.
And so it's been a veryrefreshing exercise and just
like taking a step back andthinking about, I don't have
the answer to everything,and that's totally fine.
Those are three thingsthat come to mind.
I know I'm gonna come upwith other things over the
years, but this is justsome early reflections,
Hannah Clark (04:52):
those all resonate with me strongly and kinda when
you're talking about trying tocondense things to the essence.
Something that popped intomy mind is like, and also try
and frame it in a way whereit sounds like it serves
their best interest in a waythat they understand, which I
think is also very applicableto, the work you're doing.
Like you're not justtrying to get your point
across, but you're alsotrying to communicate
(05:14):
what's in it for them.
That's a constant strugglewhere I'm, my instinct is to try
and argue from my perspective,defend my point of view.
But ultimately, if I wannabe like, I have to choose,
do I want to be right ordo I wanna be effective?
And so to be effective, I reallyhave to be meeting, I have a
three-year-old, so I have tobe meeting him where he is and
that is a practice and an art.
(05:37):
Yeah, that kind of leadsinto on the next question,
which is, you've describedparenting before as the ultimate
test of influencing withoutauthority, which I love.
How has this perspectiveshaped your management style
and stakeholder relationships?
I have a few ideas, but I'dlove to hear it from you.
Anuj Jhunjhunwal (05:52):
Yeah, totally.
I think the big thinghere is that no matter who
you're working with, ifit's a three-year-old or
coworkers and obviouslyagain like very different
situations, but you can'treally change someone, right?
You can't force someoneto do something that they
ultimately don't wanna do.
So there's no world inwhich, even though you're
the parent here, and ina lot of ways, being a
parent is authority, right?
(06:12):
You cannot force a 4-year-oldto eat their vegetables or to
go to bed by a certain time.
They have to wanna do it.
And so it comes back topersuasion and storytelling,
which is a lot of whatas a product manager
you're doing, right?
And so how do you create theright environment in which
your stakeholders understandyour thought process?
Why is this all important?
How does this allkind of tie together?
(06:33):
So much of this job is,it ties back to that
storytelling piece that reallyresonates with having kids.
I know it contradicts theprevious point about being
concise, but it still comesback to the same point of if you
wanna run faster, like you gottaeat your vegetables, right?
If you wanna have energytomorrow morning, you have
to go to sleep sooner.
And it's like this, almost likethis vision of, what you're
(06:54):
gonna do tomorrow and why todaymatters for you concisely again,
and then repeating yourself.
So just making sure that you,in anything you do, right?
So much of this job is justrepeating yourself constantly
across different mediums,whether it's a doc, and then
you say the same thing inSlack and they say a thing
same thing in all hands.
I dunno.
There's interesting parallelshere where it's trying to
incept or inflect a behaviorchange on someone else.
(07:18):
And the way you do that isjust through the sheer art of
persuasion and storytellingand getting someone else
to understand your point ofview and like why you want
it to happen, which is justa really fascinating kind of
connection that I never in amillion years would've thought
about making between thesetwo very different things.
Hannah Clark (07:35):
Sorry, I have to jump in with this because this
is, I've been on this same kindof thought train recently and
it's so funny how your approachto your career influences your
parenting style and vice versa.
And my backgroundis in marketing.
A breakthrough that Irecently had because like
food is a constant, iffood is a constant battle.
And I realized everythingexists on YouTube.
(07:56):
Like the mediums and thechannels that speak to my
child are not so differentfrom the marketing mediums
that speak to users.
So why am I not using thatskillset to my advantage?
My kid does not respond well tome, just verbally saying it's
like a, the difference betweena sales call, like a cold call
versus having them go throughthe whole customer journey of
(08:16):
like, why, what I want them todo is the right thing to do.
So for example, my kid currentlyis just in such a resistant
food picky phase and I wantedto make spaghetti and meatballs,
which is a new food for him.
And so I thought, you know what?
I'm not going in cold.
I'm gonna market spaghettiand meatballs to him.
We're gonna watch YouTubevideos about spaghetti and
(08:38):
meatballs, how great they are.
And he is gonna see otherkids loving them and gonna see
cartoon spaghetti meatballsbouncing around and sure
enough cleaned his plate.
And I'm like, I haveunlocked a breakthrough here.
Like you have to marketto your kids sometimes.
If you wanna get over thathump of, there's gonna be
resistance, like you haveto really apply some of
that skillset into the job.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (08:58):
No, totally.
In many ways it's playing iton hard mode with a toddler,
just because they, again, liketo the first point, there's the
emotions are just so raw andunfiltered, and you don't see
that in the workplace, right?
There's times when youtalk to someone and maybe
join a new company, and theculture's very different,
and the response you get ismuch more blunt than you're
expecting, and it's kinda whoa.
That was like not expectedwith a toddler, it's just like
(09:19):
that for four hours a day.
More than that, right?
You just it's just unfiltered.
And it's because they don'tknow how to filter themselves.
And so it's how doyou react to that?
How do you work with that?
How do you mold them, anticipateit and mold them into adults
and, bigger kids after that.
And yeah, it's just, it'sinteresting how much there's
a connection here that,again, I would never have
put these things together,but it's all, we're all
(09:40):
learning lessons as we go,
Hannah Clark (09:41):
oh, for sure.
And I think that it's niceto have this, yeah, it really
forces you to question yourassumptions 'cause you realize
that as we get older, westill feel the same emotions.
We're just better atmanaging and masking them.
If you get in the habit athome of boiling things down
and kind of meeting peoplewhere they're at, I think that
really just makes you I foundthis made me a more effective
(10:02):
communicator in general.
But anyway, we can talk aboutthis specific point probably
for an entire episode.
Let's move on.
So let's talk about in someinherent contradictions
in product management.
We'll depart from parentingfor just a moment.
So what are some of theparadoxes you've encountered
throughout your careerthat have contradictory?
You've mentioned a few already.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (10:21):
Yeah, I think there's a few that come
to mind, and I'm happy togo deeper on any of these.
It's like the first one thathas been more applicable,
the further I've gotten in mycareer is people will always
want you to say yes to certainthings, both internally and
externally at your company,but they're also way more,
they're significantly moreokay with you saying no
than you think they are.
(10:42):
That's the first one.
The second one is, I thinkthe way you write is extremely
important, but no one readsanything, both and like
internally and externally.
And I think that's justbecause people have a lot of
things going on and everyone'sattention is more precious
now than it has ever been.
And the third thing is thatcareer growth seems linear,
but is absolutely not.
That last one may be less ofa paradox or a contradiction
(11:02):
and just like a, somethingthat just took me by surprise
starting out my career.
It seems so linear whenyou're just starting out and
then over time you realizethat it absolutely is not.
Hannah Clark (11:11):
I am a little bit curious about your,
the non-linear career thing'cause you're talking a
little bit about applyingskill sets and it's funny.
I think you realize as yougo through these transitions,
whether it's from one jobtitle to the next, or from
a non-parent to a parent,a lot of the skills that
you accumulate over timeare actually a lot more
applicable than you expected.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (11:30):
Yeah, I think it's actually funny.
So when you start off in,I remember early in my
career, I would read theWikipedia page for some CEO
or famous person, right?
And it's always verysuccinct in a way.
It's like this persongraduated from college in
2000, they started workingat this company by 2007.
They were like head ofNorth America 2010, their
(11:51):
global head 2015, their CEO.
You're like, wow,that's very linear.
They just kept growing up inthis company, and it feels like
you're, there's just so muchdetail in there that you're not
seeing in that article, and likeno one goes into depth about
the decision making process thattook them from starting at this
company to then becoming head ofNorth America, it is just like
a, that's a big jump and there'sa lot hidden in that seven
(12:12):
years that you don't read about.
Partly, I think there'sa selection bias, right?
Because you're seeing howsuccessful people got to
where they are and you think,how do I get to that point?
The reality I think, is thatwhen you're doing the work
and trying to get to the nextlevel and grow your career,
it's not a checklist, right?
Nor is it this like linearladder up these different rungs.
It's more like you're chartingyour path up a hill and
(12:34):
there's like multiple differentpaths you can get there.
Sometimes you have to gothrough the forest a little bit
and the skills that get you apromotion aren't necessarily
the skills that make yousuccessful in that next role.
When you get to the nextrole, you have a different
criteria, different rule book, adifferent set of a rubric, that
you're being compared against.
And so something I've realizedmore and more over time is.
Your career is aproduct itself, right?
You just happen tobe the user of it.
(12:55):
And so it's all aboutjust, again, like if you
would think about anyother thing as a product.
What are your specific needs?
What do you do really wellthat other people don't,
and what are your gaps?
What do you do?
Not as well as other people.
Just really introspect andthink about what those, what
are the jobs, what are the rolesor things that you want to do
that push yourself on thosegaps and make yourself better,
and get you to the next levelwhere you can then stretch
(13:16):
on some other things as well.
When I started out, I was likemanaging people is this like
milestone that I have to have?
It's not for everyone, right?
There are PMs that areway better as ICs and
want to go down that path.
So really just thinkabout what is it that you
want to get out of it.
It's not checking the box, it'sthis random path up a hill.
And I have to think about,what does that path look like?
(13:38):
Because this can bedifferent for everyone.
Hannah Clark (13:40):
Yeah I really agree and I think that this
is something that I've learnedearly in my career that
I've always been sensitiveto is that strong ICs don't
necessarily make strong leaders.
Leadership and management isa skillset of its own, and
you can be an awesome leaderand not that good of an IC.
We equate them, but theydo take a very specific
(14:00):
set of competencies.
And leadership specificallyis an interesting one because
it's not really something thatyou learn to excel at until
you're already in that capacity.
You can have a lot of qualitiesthat help you develop faster,
and you may might have anaptitude for it, but I had
a conversation recently withAndrew Saxe at Smartling
(14:21):
about how that's somethingthat I'm wondering is maybe a
byproduct of this AI revolution.
Whether, because we're nowoperating as overseers of
sort of digital interns,whether it's going to start
to indoctrinate like more of amanagerial resource management
mindset into people beforethey reach a leadership level.
But of course you have tolayer on like the soft skills
(14:41):
and that kind of thing.
So I don't know.
There might be something there.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (14:43):
That's really interesting.
Yeah.
It's almost like an internthat stays an intern forever.
Obviously the models get betterover time, but like you're
learning how to delegate in alot of ways without having to
manage the upward trajectory ofthis person or this not person,
that's really interesting.
I, yeah I'm curious obviouslyI think we're all in the
same boat here trying tofigure out where AI goes
and how it helps us in ourcareers, like in a few years.
Sorry.
Yeah, that, that was afascinating point I just
(15:04):
wanted to jump in on.
Hannah Clark (15:05):
It's one that I've been interested in exploring.
I think it's interesting to seehow that shift in mindset, like
obviously we're gonna be usingthe tools more effectively and
the baseline capabilities ofAI are going to grow with us.
So yeah, it might stayan intern forever.
Which also begs the questionwhat becomes of the interns?
Like what's thepathway to becoming a
(15:25):
subject matter expert?
It might be that youjust become a really good
manager really early.
That's kinda cool.
Back on track.
I do wanna talk a little bitmore about your other assertion
that no one reads anything.
As a editor of a publication,I take offense to that.
No, I'm just kidding.
I actually think I,you're absolutely right.
That's why we have such growthin mediums like this one.
You know so much as avideo first and people's
(15:46):
attention spans dwindle.
There's so much stuff that'scompeting for our attention,
but how do you reckon with that?
How have you navigatedthat in your work?
Anuj Jhunjhunwal (15:54):
Yeah, totally.
I think I'm definitely oneof those people who obsesses
over every word, when it comesto writing things in college,
for example, or, yeah, I guesscollege is a great example.
Like I, I would spendmore time editing than
I spent actually writingthe initial draft, right?
And just like constantlyrefining the words.
I think, obviously goodwriting absolutely makes
a difference, right?
(16:15):
So there's the storytellingpiece again, which is, why
should we build this thing?
What did we learnfrom this experiment?
What's our vision for theproduct or for the company?
And all of that needsto be expressed.
And I think there's writingas an exercise and like
carving out time to do thatis a great way to refine
your own thoughts and thinkabout structuring arguments.
And just putting wordson paper is super
valuable as an exercise.
(16:35):
I think the reality also isthat people, to the point of the
contradiction, just don't havetime to read everything, right?
So everyone's busy, everyone'sgot a million Slack messages
and emails and things to do.
Prior to this, obviously I wasat Lyft, which is, B2C, and then
you're, if you have competitors,there's other, they can take
an Uber, they can just sit athome and watch Netflix instead
of going somewhere, right?
So there's like physicallya limit to the amount
(16:57):
of time people can spendreading anything you
put in front of them.
One thing that's always kindastruck me as interesting is that
even Amazon, is famous for theselike six page memos and carving
out time to read these things.
They have to carve outthe time in the meeting to
read it because they knowthat prior to the meeting,
no one's gonna read it.
They don't have time to read it.
And so I think what reallythis translates to is it's
really just about makingyourself impossible to ignore.
(17:19):
So bullets, bolding, makingsure you highlight the right
things, making sure thatyou write TLDR is the top
of documents so that people.
What are the three thingsabout the stock that
I have to take away?
If this is not somethingthat I'm interested in, I can
move on to the next thing.
And then just repeating yourselfacross multiple channels.
So in the doc itself, in Slack,in a meeting, in your all
hands, finding your audiencefor whatever it is that you're
(17:39):
trying to say, and findingthe audience, meeting the
audience where they wannabe met, and what forum or
medium works best for them.
Hannah Clark (17:46):
Yeah.
Now we're drifting right backinto the overlap with parenting.
Where you have to repeatyourself so many times in
so many contexts, and it'smaddening, but it also starts
to make sense because yourealize that people, generally
speaking, really don't absorbnew information easily the first
time, and especially if you'reasking them to adopt a behavior.
(18:08):
Yeah, repetition is critical.
I spoke to Debbie McMahon atthe Financial Times about this
as well, where she's she's aCPO and she's still beating the
drum of you have to continueto repeat yourself way more
than you think you have to.
Because communicationthat's effective isn't about
being like I told you, andtherefore you should know.
It's about making sure thatit's landing, like you said,
(18:29):
with your audience, and that'ssomething that I'm having
to remind myself constantly.
It's oh my goodness, like howmany times do I have to tell
you how to wash your hands?
I know you know how to dothis, but sometimes a change
in context really can feellike it's a new thing.
There's new rules likethat behavior hasn't
really locked in yet.
It's not second nature, andthat takes a lot of time.
Impatience.
(18:50):
But anyway, let's move right on.
So now we're talking aboutoutcomes and naturally
efficiency as well.
We're talking about as well,how has your thinking about
efficiency and outcomes evolvedsince you've become a parent
and you've got more of apremium on the time in a day?
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (19:06):
I think quite literally, it just forces me
to time box things to an extentthat I was not doing before.
There's some people whoare just really good at
I, this is my work time.
I'm gonna get as much done asI can here, and then I'm at
home, or I'm doing somethingelse and I'm tuned off, right?
I think I was never reallygood at that separation.
(19:26):
So with kids, youhave no choice, right?
I'm at the office from X to Xor X to Y, and in this time I
have to get as much done as Ican because I know when I get
home, if I open up my laptop infront of my kids, A it's just
not great for a relationship.
You wanna make sure that youseparate these things out.
B, my son wants to just playwith my laptop, so physically
I cannot get work done ifI'm sitting next to them.
(19:46):
And so I just have to makesure that, the overall
amount of work that I needto do does not change.
It's, there'sstill expectations.
There's still things that Ihave to get done, and so I
just have to make sure thatI'm still as productive as
I can be during the day.
So I think it really justcomes down to, it's been a
really strong forcing functionfor me to make sure that I
compartmentalize and makesure that I'm as productive
as I can be when I'm atthe office, because this is
(20:09):
my time to get work done.
It really helps to separatethese things and make sure that
I'm as productive as I can be.
Hannah Clark (20:14):
Yeah I'm finding the same thing.
In my journey, I feel likethere's, from time to time I
have to really sit down andlook at my routine, especially
when there's a big change.
If you have, you start a schooland you've got that to take
into account, or you havea new project or something
that's impacted the way thatyou need to run your time.
Sometimes I'll have to sit downand think, okay, the way that
I was managing my time before,it's no longer serving me.
(20:37):
How do I need to rearrange myweek or my every other week or
my month in order to ensure thatI've appropriately delegated
myself time to do these thingsbecause yeah, just like you.
I know that beforedaycare and after pickup,
it's not happening.
So like that time you reallyhad to take it so seriously
(20:58):
and be so deliberate.
And I think that also reallyforces you to prioritize too.
Like you really have to bethinking very consciously,
what are the things that area non-negotiable for this
day, and that I find is nice.
It's simplified my life in away where, there was a time
when I didn't have thosesame limitations and it was
just like a free for all,which meant sometimes it
(21:19):
would just do a lot of lowhanging fruit, which was good.
It would feel productive,but the big stuff would just
flounder, but now that it'slike no, this is my time to tack
away at the big stuff and thenthe low hanging fruit can wait.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (21:33):
Totally.
The low leverage stuffcan be something that,
like I we're making a bigquestion I think a lot of
companies do in this, right?
Where, how do you use AI tojust move faster internally?
And how do you the low leveragestuff is the stuff that's
so easy to automate away.
And this is a strong forcingfunction for, I could spend
30 minutes doing this, orI could find a way to write
a script or do somethingthat just does it for me.
(21:54):
And you're forced to do that,which is kinda refreshing in
the sense that it really doeslet you focus on the high
priority things and you're like,I have nine hours to do this.
I just have to do it, which ishonestly refreshing in a way
to be able to focus like that.
Hannah Clark (22:06):
Yeah.
You realize how many littlethings in your day kind of chip
away at your focus and yourmental energy and it really
doesn't take, I don't know,I can't speak for everybody.
I find that it really takesa lot less than I think to do
such a significant dent intomy mental energy that it's
like I just feels like that bigthing that I want to get around
to it seems insurmountable.
(22:28):
So yeah, likedoing what you can.
And I do think that there issomething to be said about
finding ways to honor thattime, block it away, automate,
whatever you can do toprotect time and be conscious
of your own shortcomings,not just as a parent.
We're always so aware of those,but as, yeah, as a functioning
human being, as a person on ateam, like being aware that, you
(22:50):
know what, like if I really, ifthis thing that I'm trying to
do requires my full focus fora day, and if I even attempt
to do any context switching,I'm gonna derail my whole self.
I have to be aware of that andnot try and work against it.
So yeah, it's I think thathas been a big breakthrough
for me also, like in parentingis like really being more
deliberate about making choicesthat align with the real me
(23:12):
and not the me that I wannabe, and trying to really meet
myself where I'm at, 'causeyeah, like you're not just
trying to meet your kid, you'realso trying to meet yourself.
Make sure that you aretaking care of yourself.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (23:21):
Totally.
It's a delicate balance.
Hannah Clark (23:23):
Yeah.
I feel like this is atheoretical conversation in some
ways, but it's really hitting.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (23:27):
Yep.
Hannah Clark (23:28):
We'll pivot away from parenting for
a little while longer.
So you spent some time at Lyftand you mentioned you wanted to
return to like more of a faster,like a smaller environment.
And this is interestingbecause I think that smaller
environments have pros andcons, just like enterprises.
So what specific advantages haveyou found in smaller companies
as far as outcome deliverables?
And are you happywith your decision?
Anuj Jhunjhun (23:46):
Oh yeah, totally.
There's a few things that cometo mind in how smaller companies
ship faster that I've seen.
So I think one thing is thatthere's stronger context
across the team, right?
So it's like when we say we'regonna build something, or this
is a problem, we need to fixthe amount of work he needs
to do to convince someone thatis the case is just much lower
(24:07):
because everyone is naturallycloser to the customer.
They're naturallycloser to the problem.
So what used to be a longdocument or a series of meetings
in which you're like, buildthis case, we're doing something
at a smaller co company isoh yeah, this is obvious.
This is clear.
We should do this.
So that's one thing.
You just move fasterbecause of that naturally.
I think the second thingis tactically you just have
fewer layers of approval aswell, so there's no running
(24:29):
up the chain, five layersto get something approved.
The company's much more flat.
It's just smaller.
There's fewer people.
There's fewer ways tostructure a pyramid like this.
I think the last thing is thatsmaller company, especially a
startup, especially one that isin an industry where you have
to move fast, like software,like there is no mode, right?
You just have to outexecute everyone else.
Is that I think you have aselection bias for people who
(24:50):
just wanna work hard, right?
Like you don't comehere to rest, invest.
You come here to build somethingand see that payoff directly
into this product that youhave a lot of influence over.
And so I think thosekind of three things
come together, right?
Like you have a team that'sjust very close to what
they're doing, such thatyou don't have to convince
people to a strong degreeinternally to do something
because people understandthe problem inherently.
(25:12):
And then you have thisgroup of people that
just wants to work hard.
And those two things togethermeans that you have people
who are type A, willing togrind, who can take this
problem they see and havehigh agency in fixing it.
And I think that kind of, thatat some big companies, but
it's the fact that there'sjust more layers means that
the bigger company movesat just a different speed.
And they both have the prosand cons, honestly, but that's
(25:33):
just what I've enjoyed aboutworking at a smaller company.
Hannah Clark (25:35):
Yeah, I think this honestly ties back a lot into
that knowing yourself piece.
Because I think the environment,again, it just about knowing
what kind of environment hasthe payoff that you need to
feel energized about the work,which is I think another, we're
talking about driving factors.
Like where you're gonna findthat satisfaction in the role.
(25:57):
And I've talked to peopleon all areas of the spectrum
as far as the environmentsthat they're drawn into.
And I can totally, Iappreciate and identify with
what you're saying aboutbeing drawn to the small
company mindset, that reallyagile, reactive, tight team.
I think that's, for me, Ireally see that sweet spot
as a team that's stillsmall, but in growth mode
(26:19):
where things are exciting.
Maybe you've just foundproduct market fit, you're
really starting to take off.
And that excitement and theenergy and the kinda, and that
the scent of success reallyseems to galvanize the team
to really buy into the vision.
And I really love that energy.
But it's funny how, thefundamental way that a team
operates changes as the companymatures and then you can start
(26:41):
to find that you lose thatsame energy because you lose
that peace that you reallyresonated with that Got you so
energized in the first place.
I know people who feel likethey are at their absolute
best solving the problemsof a company that's like
really in scale up mode.
And to me that's oh,that is so stressful.
(27:01):
Great for you, but that'severybody's got their thing
that they're drawn to.
There's folks who just reallythrive in that enterprise
environment where theyreally like the intricacies
of, that level of business.
And so it's interesting toothat, that we're talking
about seeing yourself in yourcareer and you're making your
career product and being awareof like yourself as a user.
(27:21):
What are your preferences?
What are you drawn to?
How do you market yourown career to yourself?
And if your environment isfundamentally changing 'cause
of the nature of the business,not taking that personally,
just realizing that maybethis is just not aligned
with what keeps you going.
Anuj Jhunjhunwal (27:38):
Yeah, totally.
And also recognizing that, soyour needs are gonna change
over time and the company isgonna change over time and there
are times when you might beinterested in different things,
and that's totally fine, right?
There's a world where someonewho's fresh outta college,
junior in their career mightbe better served at a startup
or might be better servedat a bigger company, right?
If you thrive in kind ofambiguous spaces and driving
(28:00):
forward things, knowing thatthere might not be a clear
answer, then you're probablybetter off at a startup.
But if you want the resourcesof a bigger company, then a
bigger company makes more sense.
And it's like this tradeoff where you have to like
really think about it.
It's not gonna be thesame answer for everyone.
And that's again, totally fine.
Hannah Clark (28:14):
Yeah, like I think that's, again, I'm tying
it back to parenting, but Ifeel like that's another thing
that you recognize as you getto know your child and their
nuances, you recognize thata behavior, for example, that
maybe is unpleasant isn'tnecessarily a bad thing.
It's an indicator, but it's ifmy kid is really stubborn and
(28:35):
really set in his ways and it's,it's, it may be irritating to
me in the moment as the personwho's responsible for him.
It's but this also points toa characteristic about him.
And it's, like you're yeahseeing the world through that
lens is pretty transformativebecause you start to you
stop ascribing like moralvalues to things and just
more of things, seeing themas oh, this is an indicator.
(28:56):
This is just like a...
Anuj Jhunjhun (28:57):
It is what it is.
Yeah.
Hannah Clark (28:58):
It is what it is, and you just
have to roll with it.
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (29:00):
Yep, totally.
I hear you.
Hannah Clark (29:02):
This is a very different kind of conversation
than what we normally havebecause I feel like there's
something here that is justa lot bigger than work.
I really feel like the essenceof this conversation is
really just like seeing howparenting just changes the
way that you see the world andyou I don't know it, that's
a very nothing statement,but does that make sense?
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (29:25):
Yeah, no, it totally does.
It's in switching careers,every job you have, you take
away something from it, right?
And it all contributesback to the next job.
And like how you improvein your career and kind
of move your way up.
It's no different here.
Like parenting is a differentthing you're doing and you
learn something from it.
Again, we're all just tryingto figure this out as we go.
And so it's all about takingwhat you've learned, applying
(29:47):
it, really pushing yourself andthinking about where you want
to go with it and experimenting,which is kinda the fun of it.
Hannah Clark (29:55):
The fun of it indeed.
Thank you so muchfor joining me, Anuj.
This was really enjoyable.
It's really nice to be ableto talk about our learned
experiences outside of workand kind of, I don't know,
I like talking about my son.
Where can people followyour work online?
Anuj Jhunjhunwala (30:07):
Thanks for having me here.
This was great.
I really enjoyedthe conversation.
LinkedIn is probably best.
I'm trying to post a littlebit more there, so just
search for me and I lookforward to connecting.
This is really excitingstuff to talk through.
Hannah Clark (30:17):
Yeah, likewise.
Thanks so much for joining us.
Anuj Jhunjhunwal (30:19):
Appreciate it.
Take care.
Hannah Clark (30:23):
Thanks for listening in.
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