January 28, 2025 • 26 mins
In the age of remote work, product teams can take a lot of forms, and are no longer limited to the talent pool of a specific geographic area. That means many of us are working closely every day with colleagues in completely different time zones, while also building products for customers around the world. And while the ability to connect, collaborate, and sell internationally offers a wealth of opportunities, it also comes with a whole world of intricacies and challenges.
My guest today is Craig Guarraci, who has spent the past 30 years working for Big Tech companies like Amazon and Microsoft, and is now putting his experience to work as a Career Coach. Given his background and current focus, Craig is MORE than familiar with some of the more delicate challenges of building and launching products internationally. We discussed the considerations PMs, executives, and entrepreneurs need to be thinking about when working across borders, and how to make sure your best efforts don’t get lost in translation.
Resources from this episode:
- Subscribe to The Product Manager newsletter
- Connect with Craig on LinkedIn
- Check out Tech PM Career Path
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hannah Clark (00:02):
In the age of remote work, product teams
can take a lot of forms,and are no longer limited
to the talent pool of aspecific geographic area.
That means many of us areworking closely every day
with colleagues in completelydifferent time zones, while
also building products forcustomers around the world.
And while the ability toconnect, collaborate, and
sell internationally offersa wealth of opportunities, it
also comes with a whole worldof intricacies and challenges.
(00:24):
My guest today is CraigGuarraci, who has spent
the past 30 years workingfor big tech companies like
Amazon and Microsoft, and isnow putting his experience
to work as a career coach.
Given his background andcurrent focus, Craig is more
than familiar with some ofthe more delicate challenges
of building and launchingproducts internationally.
We discussed the considerationsPMs, executives, and
entrepreneurs need to bethinking about right now when
(00:45):
working across borders, and howto make sure your best efforts
don't get lost in translation.
Let's jump in.
Welcome back to TheProduct Manager podcast.
I'm here with Craig Guarraci.
He is the career coach andfounder of Tech PM Career Path.
Craig, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
Craig Guar (01:02):
Yeah, thanks Hannah.
It's great to be here.
Hannah Clark (01:03):
Awesome.
We'll start it off the waywe always started things off.
Do you mind telling usa little bit about your
background and how you gotto where you are today?
Craig Guarraci (01:10):
Sure.
So I have over 30 yearsexperience in the tech industry.
I worked at Microsoft, Amazon,as well as some startups.
One was as small asabout 20 or 30 people.
So working at a range ofcompanies of different sizes.
I've moved through rolesin terms of like technical
project program as well asproduct management roles.
And, you know, senior technicalprogram manager roles.
(01:33):
And specific to our topictoday, I've worked on a
variety of global products,and I can give you kind of
a brief overview of those.
They've ranged from, you know,data warehouses that were used
within the Microsoft MSN.comdivision at Microsoft and
also working on different B2Band B2C solutions, working
(01:54):
on learning platforms.
So, for example, learningplatforms that were used in
130 different countries with13,000 educational institutions.
Also working at the Amazonon a retail division there.
Working specificallyon AI and ML models and
(02:15):
supporting tools around that.
And we can get into laterabout, you know, using AI and
ML across different culturalboundaries and in different
countries, and I'm a careercoach for technical project
program and product managers.
Hannah Clark (02:30):
Awesome.
Well, it's quite aninteresting career trajectory.
It sounds like you havedefinitely got a lot of depth
of experience in today'sfocus topic, which is cross
cultural product management,which I think right now that
while many of us are workingwith remote teams is it's
more critical than ever tokind of be mindful of some
of these things to navigate.
So to get us kicked off, doyou mind telling me a story
that just puts in contextwhy PMs benefit from a cross
(02:51):
cultural approach to their work?
Craig Guarraci (02:54):
So yeah, cross cultural product management
is important because,you know, it's obvious we
live in a connected world.
Certainly ever since theinternet exploded in about,
you know, 1995, there wasgreater opportunity to
collaborate across borders,but also to serve customers
in different countries.
And the important thingabout cross cultural product
(03:15):
management is that we can'tassume that what works in one
country will automaticallywork in another country.
So here's a, here's a storyrelated to that online
learning platform I mentionedearlier at Microsoft.
It was running in about 130different countries, and
we localized the platforminto 15 different languages.
(03:37):
And one of those languages wasArabic, and that's a language
that's a right to left language.
So some of the challengeswe ran into there were,
it's essentially takingyour sight and mirroring it.
So everything had to bereflected in a different way.
So, for example, you know,the search box, we're familiar
(03:57):
with typing in text in thesearch box and then off to
the right you have like amagnifying glass or a go
icon or something like that.
Well, that UI had to be flippedsuch that they could enter
text from the right to theleft and then on the left side.
Is where you actuallytrigger the search, you know,
clicking that search icon.
Also, we're, in the West, we'refamiliar with visiting websites
(04:20):
that have the navigationmenu down the left hand side.
Well, for Arabic, for example,we had to move that over to
the right side and also realignthat text within those menus
on the right side as well.
So, if we hadn't donethat successfully, then we
wouldn't be able to, youknow, successfully serve our
Arabic users on that platform.
(04:41):
And really the, you know,PMs benefit because,
you know, they're betterserving customers in other
countries around the world.
Hannah Clark (04:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
We want our productsto thrive, not just in
our immediate vicinity.
So it's good to be thinkingabout these things at all times.
And of course, when we'rethinking about things like this.
This is really coming backto inclusive design and
addressing the needs of usersfrom different cultural and
socioeconomic backgrounds.
We recently did an episodeabout accessible design as well.
So how can PMs embed thiskind of thinking into
(05:11):
the product lifecycle?
Craig Guarraci (05:12):
So inclusive design, yeah, that's important
that you are taking theneeds of people in different
cultures and differentsocioeconomic backgrounds.
Taking them into accountwhen you're working on the
next product and certainlyextending that product
through different releases.
So, of course, that includesthings like languages, you
(05:32):
know, localization of text,globalization for time,
date and currency formats.
And also careful reviewof any imagery and icons
to make sure that they'reappropriate for that
particular, you know, culture.
And of course, when we talkabout inclusive design, we
are including accessibility,for example, people who may
(05:53):
have different impairmentsthat they can still, you know,
use your software to achievetheir goals, whether they're
professional or personal goals.
And to embed that work into theproduct lifecycle, it may sound
kind of waterfall ish, but itreally is PM at the beginning
of that release thinking end toend about all of that work, what
(06:14):
needs to be done to serve thesedifferent you know, customers
in different countries.
And ensuring that you're takingtime to understand the needs
of customers in differentcountries, you know, doing
research, having time to analyzethe results of that research.
And then, you know, evenas you build the release,
are you building in ways ofgathering feedback, you know,
(06:38):
the quantitative feedback,like, you know, click through
rates and things like that.
As well as qualitativefeedback, you know, are we
having surveys or, you know,customer feedback, or even just
getting feedback from customersupport from customers from
those different countries whoare calling in with difficulty
using your, your product.
(06:58):
So I think that PMlooking broad at the
beginning of that release.
And planning in those activitiesand breaking that apart and
of course, executing forward.
Hannah Clark (07:08):
Okay, this, this is very interesting to me and
I like to kind of push a littlebit further on, let's just use
the example of the specificallythe version of the product that
had to speak to Arabic users.
What are some of the, I imagine,difficult to navigate challenges
associated with conductingthings like qualitative
research when you're trying toserve a demographic that has
very different communicationstandards than you, yet maybe
(07:29):
you don't have anyone on yourteam that necessarily has a
fluency with that language?
What are some of thechallenges that you've
encountered and how have youmanaged to overcome those?
Craig Guarraci (07:36):
So some of those challenges are
getting enough people whoare in those target markets
to provide enough feedback.
If that's not possible, is therea subject matter expert who is
at least familiar enough with,you know, the cultural norms
and localization standards forthose particular countries?
So, for example, when I wasworking on that learning
(07:58):
platform, we were lucky enoughto have a guy who was able
to read Hebrew, and Hebrew isalso a right to left language,
so he was kind of an expert,able to advise us on how we
should make changes to theUI, and what to expect in the
UI overall, and how thingsshould be Perceived overall.
So first, yeah, ideallygetting customers in that
marketplace to provide feedback.
(08:19):
And if not, then having asubject matter expert to provide
feedback on how you shouldadjust for different countries.
Hannah Clark (08:26):
And that must be a unique challenge to overcome
if you're, you know, targetinga specific market like that.
Let's dig into some prettysignificant challenges now
that we're on the topic ofchallenges and opportunities
within cross culturalproduct management, I want
to kind of start off with theeffective use of AI technology
because this is a hot topic.
This is something thatwe're considering no matter
what kind of product we'rebuilding and for what market.
(08:46):
So could you share someinsights on using AI transfer
learning to adapt a modelthat's trained in one cultural
context and then allow itto be effective in another.
Craig Guarraci (08:54):
So an example of that is.
Once you've trained a modelto process data within a
particular country, within aparticular language, then it's
really up to PM to determineare there opportunities to
apply those same learningsto other countries.
Let me give some exampleshere around anomaly detection,
(09:16):
and I'll give examples that Ithink most of your listeners
should be familiar with.
So, let's say that we'redeveloping an AI model
for anomaly detectionin the United States.
So some anomalies could besecurity intrusion detection,
like on a corporate network.
Are, you know, bad actorstrying to gain access to
our corporate network?
(09:36):
And what do their trafficpatterns look like?
And training a model toidentify those traffic patterns.
Of course, those are anomaliesbecause a vast majority of your
traffic in your network is goingto be from normal employees.
All that you know, that thosebad actors on your network
are going to have slightlydifferent traffic patterns
or even customer experienceanomalies that customers are
(09:58):
using your software or yourwebsite may have difficulties.
And you may only hear from avery small percentage of those
customers about problems orissues that they're having,
or even like you know,potential customer fraud.
That's also anomaly detectionbecause, you know, a very
small number of customersare going to try and.
Use nefarious techniquesto defraud companies.
(10:21):
So those are just someexamples of anomalies overall.
Let's say that we've traineda model within the U.S.
for PM to determine, canwe use this same model
in another country?
It's determining the overlapbetween those anomalies.
So, you know, are the securityintrusion detection anomalies
(10:42):
in other countries, are thosesimilar enough to the Anomalies
that we've identified and trainthe model in the U S or even
customer experience anomaliesis the website that we have
in different countries, doesit expose most of the same
functionality and thereforeit's likely that customers
in other countries may runinto those same, same issues.
(11:04):
And other countries, youknow, once you've trained a
model for one country, it'sdetermining, is there enough
overlap with other countriesand the traffic that they're
likely to experience there.
Also, you want to determinethe effort estimation for
data science to actuallyready that model to run
in other marketplaces.
(11:24):
So there you've got,you know, work to be
done around translation.
So if we trainedit in English U.S.
and we run up,want to run it in.
France and Germany andItaly, for example, we
have to determine are wegoing to translate those
languages first into Englishand run the model on it?
Or are we going to havemodels running for each of
those specific languages?
(11:45):
So there are different thingsto consider in terms of the
overall cost that's involvedto achieve that benefit.
Running that model indifferent marketplaces.
Hannah Clark (11:53):
And I would imagine even the translation
poses its own unique challenges,not just the cost, but how can
you kind of safeguard aroundthe precision of the translation
from one insight to the next?
It sounds to me likethere's a lot of risk
there that's involved.
Do you have any other insightsas far as some of the kind
of more meticulous challengesaround working with multiple
(12:16):
datasets in different languages?
Craig Guarraci (12:17):
Yeah.
So one is what you hadtouched on, which is the
quality of the translation.
So if you're goingto translate to other
languages into that commonlanguage, let's say English.
What is the quality ofthat translation overall?
And another one, of course, isthe traffic patterns, the type
of anomalies you're looking for.
Are those similar enough towhat the model already knows
(12:41):
in order to be successfullyrun in other countries?
And this goes into anotherarea that, you know, we tend to
focus a lot on the model itself.
Everybody talks about themodel and all the math and the
techniques, but there's a lotof supporting infrastructure
around these models as well.
So, for example, if we're goingto audit our anomaly detection
(13:01):
model, and we're going to havepeople internal to the company
auditing some of these resultsto ensure that the model is
providing a high degree ofaccuracy and reliability.
Well, there's going to betools, you know, tagging
tools that are necessary.
And those tagging tools arealso going to be necessary
to run in other countries aswell, because you're probably
(13:22):
going to have contacts ineach of those countries who
work for your company thatare going to say, yeah, for
this customer anomaly, orthis customer fraud detection.
The model is identifying itcorrectly, they'll use that
tagging UI, the interfaceinternal to the company,
so that you're continuallygetting feedback on how well
the model's performing inthose different countries.
(13:44):
And if it starts to diverge,you've, you know, transferred
your learnings from the U.S.
to those other countries,and you're getting
feedback from your taggers,from your auditors.
And you're saying that themodel isn't performing very
well, well that's a signalthat you need to dive deeper
into the data for that countryto say, you know, why is the
model not performing as wellin these other countries?
(14:06):
So that's just some ofthe finer points around
language translation andthe supporting tools.
And the supporting tools doneed to be able to be run in
other countries in order forthe model to be successful.
Hannah Clark (14:17):
Yeah, really interesting considerations.
I did want to also dive intoanother major challenge, which
of course would be regulatorycompliance across borders.
We're talking about, youknow, dealing with the legal
obligations that you havethat, that is very diverse.
According to which countriesyou're, we're operating in.
With laws like the EU'sGDPR or the EU AI Act or
(14:37):
some of the emerging U.S.
state level privacy laws thatare also kind of in the mix.
How should PMs design datacollection strategies that
can remain compliant andethical and still be effective?
Craig Guarraci (14:48):
Yeah, so those data collection approaches
that really relies on PMworking closely with their
legal counsel, that they'regoing to need that in order
to navigate through thesedifferent regulations.
I could mention thereare different regulations
in different countries.
There's the EU GDPR generaldata protection regulation
that covers the 27 EUcountries plus the UK.
(15:11):
And there's also recentlythe EU AI Act that went into
effect August of last year.
So that covers organizationsthat are developing or using
AI, and that categorizes,you know, AI models into the
five different categories.
And of course, there's atleast California and Virginia
(15:32):
that there's the CaliforniaPrivacy Rights Act and
the Virginia Consumer DataProtection Act that protects
the collection of customerinformation, as well as how
customers can go about changingthat information, updating
it, and also the deletion oftheir, their personal data.
(15:52):
So overall, those arejust a few regulations
to consider for crosscultural product management.
And It's really a crosscompany effort between,
you know, PM workingwith their legal counsel,
working with accounting,finance, and there could be
other departments as well.
And that's just somethingthat, you know, they need to
think about early on and planit into their release overall.
(16:16):
And of course, once legal andPM have decided on specifically
what needs to be built, ofcourse, those are detailed
requirements, you know, userstories and epics for PM to
actually break out and buildwith their engineering team.
Hannah Clark (16:29):
Speaking of, with the engineering team, I'd like
to move on to more internaltopics related to cross cultural
product manager, because we'retalking a little bit now about,
you know, how do we make ourproducts functional for a
variety of external users?
Obviously, we are alsoworking with internal teams
that can often span multiplecountries, multiple time zones.
And so this is a reallyinteresting topic for me is
(16:51):
navigating these differencesacross the demographics that
we're working closely with.
So what are some practical tipsfor bridging communication gaps
when you're managing engineeringteams or a variety of different
ICs across different countriesand varying work styles and
cultural norms and all theseother considerations dealing
with folks across borders?
Craig Guarraci (17:07):
Well, first, I think it's determining if
there are language differencesbetween different team members.
So, for example, when I wasleading a team in China, that
they spoke pretty good English,and they were very eager to
deliver results, and an earlysprint planning meeting Going
through the stories that neededto be built for that sprint.
(17:27):
They didn't have any questions.
I saw a lot of nodding headsand a lot of agreement.
So I assumed that theyknew what needed to be
built for that release.
But as a sprint was proceedingand I started to see some of the
deliverables, I realized that.
They didn't really understandthe full requirements of
what those user storiesand what they really meant.
(17:47):
Even though you have, youknow, your, your measurable
criteria within those stories,I could see that they didn't
fully understand what theymeant on a larger scale.
So, it's really, you know,testing for understanding
to determine, you know, arethere communication gaps?
You know, we just discusseda set of user stories.
What's your understandingof these stories?
(18:07):
Or even asking, for thesestories, how do you think
that these relate to theproject release overall?
And asking if there's anyquestions around, you know,
do you see any concerns withthese stories falling short of
meeting full customer needs?
And another thing aroundcommunication gaps is, you know,
being aware of cultural slang.
(18:29):
You figure every country hasa certain amount of slang
they use in their language.
Like, in America, we'lluse things like, you know,
getting a ballpark estimate.
Well, ballparks don'texist in other countries.
That's a baseball park.
Or even things like, youknow, tech savvy, for example.
So, those communicationgaps can sometimes be
caused by shortcuts.
You know, the slangthat we tend to use.
(18:52):
So, I'd be careful with that.
So, those are just, you know,a couple of things that I would
look for test for understanding.
You know, be careful of thelanguage that you're using.
Hannah Clark (19:00):
You know, and I find kind of
interesting about that.
It kind of forces us tolook at how much jargon we
integrate into our day to daycommunication, as I think,
especially, you know, in thisindustry, we're rife with
jargon that happens to be alittle bit opaque, even for
those in the industry locally.
Has this kind of forcedyou to evaluate some of
the terms that you use,even with your local teams?
Craig Guarraci (19:19):
With local teams, not so much.
So I think that, you know,the local teams, they were
all US based or their folksthat had been living here
for like a decade or so.
So that wasn't thatmuch of a challenge.
Typically, it is with, youknow, folks where they're
still residing in a countryoutside the US or English
is a second language.
And I found myself actuallydouble checking my emails if
(19:42):
I was sending mail to a teammember overseas, I would read
through it two and three timesjust to make sure I wasn't
assuming anything or puttingslang in there, you know,
making sure that things werekind of objective, just to make
sure that I was communicatingas clearly as I could to team
members in another location.
Because if you don't getit right, then you incur
that dreaded 24 hour delay.
(20:04):
They get their email, whenyou're sleeping, they reply,
you get to the office thenext day, it's just, it just
leads to, you know, furtherdelays in the projects.
Hannah Clar (20:12):
Yeah, I imagine so.
Yeah, and I can only imaginehow some of the language that
we use, you know, closing theloop, for example, like these
kind of Analogies that arejust so integrated into our
day to day talk, but it's hardeven to catch them until you
do that extra due diligence.
So that's that'sreally interesting.
That's very interesting asfar as if you're overseeing
a project and you're workingwith a number of different
(20:33):
teams, they're kind ofworking under your direction.
How about between teams?
Have you had any casesof needing to help foster
collaboration and kind ofintegrate a better trust
between international teamsthat are collaborating together?
Craig Guarraci (20:47):
Yeah, so there it's understanding,
you know, different attitudesor approaches towards work.
What I mean by that is,well, one really good
example is deadlines.
That some cultures will seedeadlines as very kind of fluid
and flexible and negotiable and,you know, as long as we deliver
(21:09):
around that date, we're fine.
Whereas other cultures, Iknow, especially in the U.
S.
that.
A date means a date.
If we say we're going todeliver on July 30th, it's
going to be that date.
So it's trying to understandperspectives on dates.
And it's just testing forunderstanding as you're going
through the overall roadmapof the schedule for that
(21:31):
release, saying, what's yourunderstanding of these dates?
You know, how criticaldo you see these dates?
How important are these datesfor the project overall?
And also for trust.
I think there it comes down toPublic rewards and recognition
and really understandingour public rewards.
Are they honored, you know, howshould public rewards be given
(21:54):
shared public rewards be to anindividual who contributed or
there are different cultureswhere they actually prefer
that a reward be given tothe team overall, rather than
to a specific individual.
So, just taking the timeto do the research and
understand, you know, how dodifferent cultures see that.
And in terms of trust,I think it's, it's also
(22:16):
understanding and recognizingdifferent national holidays.
So for example, people in Chinaabout February celebrate, you
know, the spring festival, theytake about a week or so off.
It's taken some time beforethat to congratulate them.
And of course, planningaround those dates to make
sure that There's stillcoverage for your project and
production, but also buildingthat time into the schedule.
(22:39):
And also for folks fromIndia, they celebrate
Diwali in about November.
So taking time to congratulateand kind of, you know, celebrate
those different holidays.
I think that that goes a longway towards building trust
on a particular project.
Hannah Clark (22:55):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
It must foster a really lovelycultural atmosphere as well.
Engineering teams specificallyoperating in remote or hybrid
setups, how can PMs kind ofensure that the collaboration
and accountability acrossthose time zones and cultural
boundaries remain seamless?
And, you know, everybody isaccountable to everything
(23:15):
and is able to respondin a timely manner.
Craig Guarraci (23:18):
Yeah, so in addition to those, those
other areas that I mentionedin terms of reviewing
the schedule, testing forunderstanding, those kind of
concrete things, this is wherewe touch on PM soft skills.
And this is reallyPM walking around.
So, after you've kicked offthat particular sprint, it's
just talking to your localengineers who are working with
(23:39):
engineers in other countriesand other time zones, and
just asking, you know, hey,how's it going overall?
How are things progressing inthis area with this feature?
Is there anythingholding you up?
How's it going working withso and so in another country
and also PN checking inwith their counterpart and
that other country as well.
Sometimes there's like a,a main country lead, like a
(24:00):
project manager or anotherprogram manager who's
working directly with theengineers in another country.
As you're checking in withthem, you know, either email or
chat and sometimes just havinginformal meetings to say, how
are things going from your end?
You know, are you thinkyou're making good progress?
Are there any issueswe need to discuss?
Is there anything blocking you?
(24:22):
Just asking kind ofopen ended questions.
And I think that thosemorale items that I mentioned
earlier also help tobuild collaboration, but.
But I think that that seamlesscollaboration, that's kind of
a combination of, you know,reviewing the schedule, what
needs to be done, as well aspracticing those soft skills.
Just walking around andhaving informal conversations
(24:43):
with people locally, aswell as your engineering
staff and other locations.
Hannah Clark (24:48):
Before we wrap up, I'm just so curious if you
have any anecdotes of, you know,maybe a moment where you found
it to be especially rewardingor really interesting to be
working in an environment thatkind of exposes you to all
these different cultural norms.
Craig Guarraci (25:02):
Yeah, so that would be that learning
platform that I mentionedearlier at Microsoft.
And that's just because itwas so broad, covered so
many different countriesand, you know, localizing and
globalizing a product like that.
In the 15 or so languages,it really exposed me to a
lot of, you know, differentcultural attitudes and
(25:23):
different different waysthat they see the product.
Just overall, I guesssome specific things
even during localization.
So for example, the Germanlanguage, when you localize
into the German language,it can be quite long, the
German, you know, verbiage.
So trying to fit.
You translate a German verbiageinto the existing UI, you may
(25:44):
have to make some UI changesto extend dialogue boxes and
menus and things like that.
So, you know, you'll learna lot of interesting things
just doing the work for othercustomers in other countries.
Hannah Clark (25:57):
Oh, that's so fascinating.
I think it's just a sucha cool thing to be able to
learn more about that peopleand how how people live and
operate in different countries.
It's very cool.
Craig, thank you somuch for joining us.
This has been a reallyinteresting conversation and
we've caught a lot of differentangles on this one here.
Where can people followyour work online if
they'd like to learn more?
Craig Guarraci (26:14):
So they can either go to my website,
techpmcareerpath.com, or theycan look me up on LinkedIn.
Hannah Clark (26:19):
Awesome.
Well, thank you somuch for joining us.
Craig Guarraci (26:21):
Thank you.
Hannah Clark (26:24):
Thanks for listening in.
For more great insights, how-toguides, and tool reviews,
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The Product Manager, whereveryou get your podcasts.
In the age of remote work, product teams
can take a lot of forms,and are no longer limited
to the talent pool of aspecific geographic area.
That means many of us areworking closely every day
with colleagues in completelydifferent time zones, while
also building products forcustomers around the world.
And while the ability toconnect, collaborate, and
sell internationally offersa wealth of opportunities, it
also comes with a whole worldof intricacies and challenges.
(00:24):
My guest today is CraigGuarraci, who has spent
the past 30 years workingfor big tech companies like
Amazon and Microsoft, and isnow putting his experience
to work as a career coach.
Given his background andcurrent focus, Craig is more
than familiar with some ofthe more delicate challenges
of building and launchingproducts internationally.
We discussed the considerationsPMs, executives, and
entrepreneurs need to bethinking about right now when
(00:45):
working across borders, and howto make sure your best efforts
don't get lost in translation.
Let's jump in.
Welcome back to TheProduct Manager podcast.
I'm here with Craig Guarraci.
He is the career coach andfounder of Tech PM Career Path.
Craig, thank you so muchfor joining us today.
Craig Guar (01:02):
Yeah, thanks Hannah.
It's great to be here.
Hannah Clark (01:03):
Awesome.
We'll start it off the waywe always started things off.
Do you mind telling usa little bit about your
background and how you gotto where you are today?
Craig Guarraci (01:10):
Sure.
So I have over 30 yearsexperience in the tech industry.
I worked at Microsoft, Amazon,as well as some startups.
One was as small asabout 20 or 30 people.
So working at a range ofcompanies of different sizes.
I've moved through rolesin terms of like technical
project program as well asproduct management roles.
And, you know, senior technicalprogram manager roles.
(01:33):
And specific to our topictoday, I've worked on a
variety of global products,and I can give you kind of
a brief overview of those.
They've ranged from, you know,data warehouses that were used
within the Microsoft MSN.comdivision at Microsoft and
also working on different B2Band B2C solutions, working
(01:54):
on learning platforms.
So, for example, learningplatforms that were used in
130 different countries with13,000 educational institutions.
Also working at the Amazonon a retail division there.
Working specificallyon AI and ML models and
(02:15):
supporting tools around that.
And we can get into laterabout, you know, using AI and
ML across different culturalboundaries and in different
countries, and I'm a careercoach for technical project
program and product managers.
Hannah Clark (02:30):
Awesome.
Well, it's quite aninteresting career trajectory.
It sounds like you havedefinitely got a lot of depth
of experience in today'sfocus topic, which is cross
cultural product management,which I think right now that
while many of us are workingwith remote teams is it's
more critical than ever tokind of be mindful of some
of these things to navigate.
So to get us kicked off, doyou mind telling me a story
that just puts in contextwhy PMs benefit from a cross
(02:51):
cultural approach to their work?
Craig Guarraci (02:54):
So yeah, cross cultural product management
is important because,you know, it's obvious we
live in a connected world.
Certainly ever since theinternet exploded in about,
you know, 1995, there wasgreater opportunity to
collaborate across borders,but also to serve customers
in different countries.
And the important thingabout cross cultural product
(03:15):
management is that we can'tassume that what works in one
country will automaticallywork in another country.
So here's a, here's a storyrelated to that online
learning platform I mentionedearlier at Microsoft.
It was running in about 130different countries, and
we localized the platforminto 15 different languages.
(03:37):
And one of those languages wasArabic, and that's a language
that's a right to left language.
So some of the challengeswe ran into there were,
it's essentially takingyour sight and mirroring it.
So everything had to bereflected in a different way.
So, for example, you know,the search box, we're familiar
(03:57):
with typing in text in thesearch box and then off to
the right you have like amagnifying glass or a go
icon or something like that.
Well, that UI had to be flippedsuch that they could enter
text from the right to theleft and then on the left side.
Is where you actuallytrigger the search, you know,
clicking that search icon.
Also, we're, in the West, we'refamiliar with visiting websites
(04:20):
that have the navigationmenu down the left hand side.
Well, for Arabic, for example,we had to move that over to
the right side and also realignthat text within those menus
on the right side as well.
So, if we hadn't donethat successfully, then we
wouldn't be able to, youknow, successfully serve our
Arabic users on that platform.
(04:41):
And really the, you know,PMs benefit because,
you know, they're betterserving customers in other
countries around the world.
Hannah Clark (04:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
We want our productsto thrive, not just in
our immediate vicinity.
So it's good to be thinkingabout these things at all times.
And of course, when we'rethinking about things like this.
This is really coming backto inclusive design and
addressing the needs of usersfrom different cultural and
socioeconomic backgrounds.
We recently did an episodeabout accessible design as well.
So how can PMs embed thiskind of thinking into
(05:11):
the product lifecycle?
Craig Guarraci (05:12):
So inclusive design, yeah, that's important
that you are taking theneeds of people in different
cultures and differentsocioeconomic backgrounds.
Taking them into accountwhen you're working on the
next product and certainlyextending that product
through different releases.
So, of course, that includesthings like languages, you
(05:32):
know, localization of text,globalization for time,
date and currency formats.
And also careful reviewof any imagery and icons
to make sure that they'reappropriate for that
particular, you know, culture.
And of course, when we talkabout inclusive design, we
are including accessibility,for example, people who may
(05:53):
have different impairmentsthat they can still, you know,
use your software to achievetheir goals, whether they're
professional or personal goals.
And to embed that work into theproduct lifecycle, it may sound
kind of waterfall ish, but itreally is PM at the beginning
of that release thinking end toend about all of that work, what
(06:14):
needs to be done to serve thesedifferent you know, customers
in different countries.
And ensuring that you're takingtime to understand the needs
of customers in differentcountries, you know, doing
research, having time to analyzethe results of that research.
And then, you know, evenas you build the release,
are you building in ways ofgathering feedback, you know,
(06:38):
the quantitative feedback,like, you know, click through
rates and things like that.
As well as qualitativefeedback, you know, are we
having surveys or, you know,customer feedback, or even just
getting feedback from customersupport from customers from
those different countries whoare calling in with difficulty
using your, your product.
(06:58):
So I think that PMlooking broad at the
beginning of that release.
And planning in those activitiesand breaking that apart and
of course, executing forward.
Hannah Clark (07:08):
Okay, this, this is very interesting to me and
I like to kind of push a littlebit further on, let's just use
the example of the specificallythe version of the product that
had to speak to Arabic users.
What are some of the, I imagine,difficult to navigate challenges
associated with conductingthings like qualitative
research when you're trying toserve a demographic that has
very different communicationstandards than you, yet maybe
(07:29):
you don't have anyone on yourteam that necessarily has a
fluency with that language?
What are some of thechallenges that you've
encountered and how have youmanaged to overcome those?
Craig Guarraci (07:36):
So some of those challenges are
getting enough people whoare in those target markets
to provide enough feedback.
If that's not possible, is therea subject matter expert who is
at least familiar enough with,you know, the cultural norms
and localization standards forthose particular countries?
So, for example, when I wasworking on that learning
(07:58):
platform, we were lucky enoughto have a guy who was able
to read Hebrew, and Hebrew isalso a right to left language,
so he was kind of an expert,able to advise us on how we
should make changes to theUI, and what to expect in the
UI overall, and how thingsshould be Perceived overall.
So first, yeah, ideallygetting customers in that
marketplace to provide feedback.
(08:19):
And if not, then having asubject matter expert to provide
feedback on how you shouldadjust for different countries.
Hannah Clark (08:26):
And that must be a unique challenge to overcome
if you're, you know, targetinga specific market like that.
Let's dig into some prettysignificant challenges now
that we're on the topic ofchallenges and opportunities
within cross culturalproduct management, I want
to kind of start off with theeffective use of AI technology
because this is a hot topic.
This is something thatwe're considering no matter
what kind of product we'rebuilding and for what market.
(08:46):
So could you share someinsights on using AI transfer
learning to adapt a modelthat's trained in one cultural
context and then allow itto be effective in another.
Craig Guarraci (08:54):
So an example of that is.
Once you've trained a modelto process data within a
particular country, within aparticular language, then it's
really up to PM to determineare there opportunities to
apply those same learningsto other countries.
Let me give some exampleshere around anomaly detection,
(09:16):
and I'll give examples that Ithink most of your listeners
should be familiar with.
So, let's say that we'redeveloping an AI model
for anomaly detectionin the United States.
So some anomalies could besecurity intrusion detection,
like on a corporate network.
Are, you know, bad actorstrying to gain access to
our corporate network?
(09:36):
And what do their trafficpatterns look like?
And training a model toidentify those traffic patterns.
Of course, those are anomaliesbecause a vast majority of your
traffic in your network is goingto be from normal employees.
All that you know, that thosebad actors on your network
are going to have slightlydifferent traffic patterns
or even customer experienceanomalies that customers are
(09:58):
using your software or yourwebsite may have difficulties.
And you may only hear from avery small percentage of those
customers about problems orissues that they're having,
or even like you know,potential customer fraud.
That's also anomaly detectionbecause, you know, a very
small number of customersare going to try and.
Use nefarious techniquesto defraud companies.
(10:21):
So those are just someexamples of anomalies overall.
Let's say that we've traineda model within the U.S.
for PM to determine, canwe use this same model
in another country?
It's determining the overlapbetween those anomalies.
So, you know, are the securityintrusion detection anomalies
(10:42):
in other countries, are thosesimilar enough to the Anomalies
that we've identified and trainthe model in the U S or even
customer experience anomaliesis the website that we have
in different countries, doesit expose most of the same
functionality and thereforeit's likely that customers
in other countries may runinto those same, same issues.
(11:04):
And other countries, youknow, once you've trained a
model for one country, it'sdetermining, is there enough
overlap with other countriesand the traffic that they're
likely to experience there.
Also, you want to determinethe effort estimation for
data science to actuallyready that model to run
in other marketplaces.
(11:24):
So there you've got,you know, work to be
done around translation.
So if we trainedit in English U.S.
and we run up,want to run it in.
France and Germany andItaly, for example, we
have to determine are wegoing to translate those
languages first into Englishand run the model on it?
Or are we going to havemodels running for each of
those specific languages?
(11:45):
So there are different thingsto consider in terms of the
overall cost that's involvedto achieve that benefit.
Running that model indifferent marketplaces.
Hannah Clark (11:53):
And I would imagine even the translation
poses its own unique challenges,not just the cost, but how can
you kind of safeguard aroundthe precision of the translation
from one insight to the next?
It sounds to me likethere's a lot of risk
there that's involved.
Do you have any other insightsas far as some of the kind
of more meticulous challengesaround working with multiple
(12:16):
datasets in different languages?
Craig Guarraci (12:17):
Yeah.
So one is what you hadtouched on, which is the
quality of the translation.
So if you're goingto translate to other
languages into that commonlanguage, let's say English.
What is the quality ofthat translation overall?
And another one, of course, isthe traffic patterns, the type
of anomalies you're looking for.
Are those similar enough towhat the model already knows
(12:41):
in order to be successfullyrun in other countries?
And this goes into anotherarea that, you know, we tend to
focus a lot on the model itself.
Everybody talks about themodel and all the math and the
techniques, but there's a lotof supporting infrastructure
around these models as well.
So, for example, if we're goingto audit our anomaly detection
(13:01):
model, and we're going to havepeople internal to the company
auditing some of these resultsto ensure that the model is
providing a high degree ofaccuracy and reliability.
Well, there's going to betools, you know, tagging
tools that are necessary.
And those tagging tools arealso going to be necessary
to run in other countries aswell, because you're probably
(13:22):
going to have contacts ineach of those countries who
work for your company thatare going to say, yeah, for
this customer anomaly, orthis customer fraud detection.
The model is identifying itcorrectly, they'll use that
tagging UI, the interfaceinternal to the company,
so that you're continuallygetting feedback on how well
the model's performing inthose different countries.
(13:44):
And if it starts to diverge,you've, you know, transferred
your learnings from the U.S.
to those other countries,and you're getting
feedback from your taggers,from your auditors.
And you're saying that themodel isn't performing very
well, well that's a signalthat you need to dive deeper
into the data for that countryto say, you know, why is the
model not performing as wellin these other countries?
(14:06):
So that's just some ofthe finer points around
language translation andthe supporting tools.
And the supporting tools doneed to be able to be run in
other countries in order forthe model to be successful.
Hannah Clark (14:17):
Yeah, really interesting considerations.
I did want to also dive intoanother major challenge, which
of course would be regulatorycompliance across borders.
We're talking about, youknow, dealing with the legal
obligations that you havethat, that is very diverse.
According to which countriesyou're, we're operating in.
With laws like the EU'sGDPR or the EU AI Act or
(14:37):
some of the emerging U.S.
state level privacy laws thatare also kind of in the mix.
How should PMs design datacollection strategies that
can remain compliant andethical and still be effective?
Craig Guarraci (14:48):
Yeah, so those data collection approaches
that really relies on PMworking closely with their
legal counsel, that they'regoing to need that in order
to navigate through thesedifferent regulations.
I could mention thereare different regulations
in different countries.
There's the EU GDPR generaldata protection regulation
that covers the 27 EUcountries plus the UK.
(15:11):
And there's also recentlythe EU AI Act that went into
effect August of last year.
So that covers organizationsthat are developing or using
AI, and that categorizes,you know, AI models into the
five different categories.
And of course, there's atleast California and Virginia
(15:32):
that there's the CaliforniaPrivacy Rights Act and
the Virginia Consumer DataProtection Act that protects
the collection of customerinformation, as well as how
customers can go about changingthat information, updating
it, and also the deletion oftheir, their personal data.
(15:52):
So overall, those arejust a few regulations
to consider for crosscultural product management.
And It's really a crosscompany effort between,
you know, PM workingwith their legal counsel,
working with accounting,finance, and there could be
other departments as well.
And that's just somethingthat, you know, they need to
think about early on and planit into their release overall.
(16:16):
And of course, once legal andPM have decided on specifically
what needs to be built, ofcourse, those are detailed
requirements, you know, userstories and epics for PM to
actually break out and buildwith their engineering team.
Hannah Clark (16:29):
Speaking of, with the engineering team, I'd like
to move on to more internaltopics related to cross cultural
product manager, because we'retalking a little bit now about,
you know, how do we make ourproducts functional for a
variety of external users?
Obviously, we are alsoworking with internal teams
that can often span multiplecountries, multiple time zones.
And so this is a reallyinteresting topic for me is
(16:51):
navigating these differencesacross the demographics that
we're working closely with.
So what are some practical tipsfor bridging communication gaps
when you're managing engineeringteams or a variety of different
ICs across different countriesand varying work styles and
cultural norms and all theseother considerations dealing
with folks across borders?
Craig Guarraci (17:07):
Well, first, I think it's determining if
there are language differencesbetween different team members.
So, for example, when I wasleading a team in China, that
they spoke pretty good English,and they were very eager to
deliver results, and an earlysprint planning meeting Going
through the stories that neededto be built for that sprint.
(17:27):
They didn't have any questions.
I saw a lot of nodding headsand a lot of agreement.
So I assumed that theyknew what needed to be
built for that release.
But as a sprint was proceedingand I started to see some of the
deliverables, I realized that.
They didn't really understandthe full requirements of
what those user storiesand what they really meant.
(17:47):
Even though you have, youknow, your, your measurable
criteria within those stories,I could see that they didn't
fully understand what theymeant on a larger scale.
So, it's really, you know,testing for understanding
to determine, you know, arethere communication gaps?
You know, we just discusseda set of user stories.
What's your understandingof these stories?
(18:07):
Or even asking, for thesestories, how do you think
that these relate to theproject release overall?
And asking if there's anyquestions around, you know,
do you see any concerns withthese stories falling short of
meeting full customer needs?
And another thing aroundcommunication gaps is, you know,
being aware of cultural slang.
(18:29):
You figure every country hasa certain amount of slang
they use in their language.
Like, in America, we'lluse things like, you know,
getting a ballpark estimate.
Well, ballparks don'texist in other countries.
That's a baseball park.
Or even things like, youknow, tech savvy, for example.
So, those communicationgaps can sometimes be
caused by shortcuts.
You know, the slangthat we tend to use.
(18:52):
So, I'd be careful with that.
So, those are just, you know,a couple of things that I would
look for test for understanding.
You know, be careful of thelanguage that you're using.
Hannah Clark (19:00):
You know, and I find kind of
interesting about that.
It kind of forces us tolook at how much jargon we
integrate into our day to daycommunication, as I think,
especially, you know, in thisindustry, we're rife with
jargon that happens to be alittle bit opaque, even for
those in the industry locally.
Has this kind of forcedyou to evaluate some of
the terms that you use,even with your local teams?
Craig Guarraci (19:19):
With local teams, not so much.
So I think that, you know,the local teams, they were
all US based or their folksthat had been living here
for like a decade or so.
So that wasn't thatmuch of a challenge.
Typically, it is with, youknow, folks where they're
still residing in a countryoutside the US or English
is a second language.
And I found myself actuallydouble checking my emails if
(19:42):
I was sending mail to a teammember overseas, I would read
through it two and three timesjust to make sure I wasn't
assuming anything or puttingslang in there, you know,
making sure that things werekind of objective, just to make
sure that I was communicatingas clearly as I could to team
members in another location.
Because if you don't getit right, then you incur
that dreaded 24 hour delay.
(20:04):
They get their email, whenyou're sleeping, they reply,
you get to the office thenext day, it's just, it just
leads to, you know, furtherdelays in the projects.
Hannah Clar (20:12):
Yeah, I imagine so.
Yeah, and I can only imaginehow some of the language that
we use, you know, closing theloop, for example, like these
kind of Analogies that arejust so integrated into our
day to day talk, but it's hardeven to catch them until you
do that extra due diligence.
So that's that'sreally interesting.
That's very interesting asfar as if you're overseeing
a project and you're workingwith a number of different
(20:33):
teams, they're kind ofworking under your direction.
How about between teams?
Have you had any casesof needing to help foster
collaboration and kind ofintegrate a better trust
between international teamsthat are collaborating together?
Craig Guarraci (20:47):
Yeah, so there it's understanding,
you know, different attitudesor approaches towards work.
What I mean by that is,well, one really good
example is deadlines.
That some cultures will seedeadlines as very kind of fluid
and flexible and negotiable and,you know, as long as we deliver
(21:09):
around that date, we're fine.
Whereas other cultures, Iknow, especially in the U.
S.
that.
A date means a date.
If we say we're going todeliver on July 30th, it's
going to be that date.
So it's trying to understandperspectives on dates.
And it's just testing forunderstanding as you're going
through the overall roadmapof the schedule for that
(21:31):
release, saying, what's yourunderstanding of these dates?
You know, how criticaldo you see these dates?
How important are these datesfor the project overall?
And also for trust.
I think there it comes down toPublic rewards and recognition
and really understandingour public rewards.
Are they honored, you know, howshould public rewards be given
(21:54):
shared public rewards be to anindividual who contributed or
there are different cultureswhere they actually prefer
that a reward be given tothe team overall, rather than
to a specific individual.
So, just taking the timeto do the research and
understand, you know, how dodifferent cultures see that.
And in terms of trust,I think it's, it's also
(22:16):
understanding and recognizingdifferent national holidays.
So for example, people in Chinaabout February celebrate, you
know, the spring festival, theytake about a week or so off.
It's taken some time beforethat to congratulate them.
And of course, planningaround those dates to make
sure that There's stillcoverage for your project and
production, but also buildingthat time into the schedule.
(22:39):
And also for folks fromIndia, they celebrate
Diwali in about November.
So taking time to congratulateand kind of, you know, celebrate
those different holidays.
I think that that goes a longway towards building trust
on a particular project.
Hannah Clark (22:55):
Yeah, that's really interesting.
It must foster a really lovelycultural atmosphere as well.
Engineering teams specificallyoperating in remote or hybrid
setups, how can PMs kind ofensure that the collaboration
and accountability acrossthose time zones and cultural
boundaries remain seamless?
And, you know, everybody isaccountable to everything
(23:15):
and is able to respondin a timely manner.
Craig Guarraci (23:18):
Yeah, so in addition to those, those
other areas that I mentionedin terms of reviewing
the schedule, testing forunderstanding, those kind of
concrete things, this is wherewe touch on PM soft skills.
And this is reallyPM walking around.
So, after you've kicked offthat particular sprint, it's
just talking to your localengineers who are working with
(23:39):
engineers in other countriesand other time zones, and
just asking, you know, hey,how's it going overall?
How are things progressing inthis area with this feature?
Is there anythingholding you up?
How's it going working withso and so in another country
and also PN checking inwith their counterpart and
that other country as well.
Sometimes there's like a,a main country lead, like a
(24:00):
project manager or anotherprogram manager who's
working directly with theengineers in another country.
As you're checking in withthem, you know, either email or
chat and sometimes just havinginformal meetings to say, how
are things going from your end?
You know, are you thinkyou're making good progress?
Are there any issueswe need to discuss?
Is there anything blocking you?
(24:22):
Just asking kind ofopen ended questions.
And I think that thosemorale items that I mentioned
earlier also help tobuild collaboration, but.
But I think that that seamlesscollaboration, that's kind of
a combination of, you know,reviewing the schedule, what
needs to be done, as well aspracticing those soft skills.
Just walking around andhaving informal conversations
(24:43):
with people locally, aswell as your engineering
staff and other locations.
Hannah Clark (24:48):
Before we wrap up, I'm just so curious if you
have any anecdotes of, you know,maybe a moment where you found
it to be especially rewardingor really interesting to be
working in an environment thatkind of exposes you to all
these different cultural norms.
Craig Guarraci (25:02):
Yeah, so that would be that learning
platform that I mentionedearlier at Microsoft.
And that's just because itwas so broad, covered so
many different countriesand, you know, localizing and
globalizing a product like that.
In the 15 or so languages,it really exposed me to a
lot of, you know, differentcultural attitudes and
(25:23):
different different waysthat they see the product.
Just overall, I guesssome specific things
even during localization.
So for example, the Germanlanguage, when you localize
into the German language,it can be quite long, the
German, you know, verbiage.
So trying to fit.
You translate a German verbiageinto the existing UI, you may
(25:44):
have to make some UI changesto extend dialogue boxes and
menus and things like that.
So, you know, you'll learna lot of interesting things
just doing the work for othercustomers in other countries.
Hannah Clark (25:57):
Oh, that's so fascinating.
I think it's just a sucha cool thing to be able to
learn more about that peopleand how how people live and
operate in different countries.
It's very cool.
Craig, thank you somuch for joining us.
This has been a reallyinteresting conversation and
we've caught a lot of differentangles on this one here.
Where can people followyour work online if
they'd like to learn more?
Craig Guarraci (26:14):
So they can either go to my website,
techpmcareerpath.com, or theycan look me up on LinkedIn.
Hannah Clark (26:19):
Awesome.
Well, thank you somuch for joining us.
Craig Guarraci (26:21):
Thank you.
Hannah Clark (26:24):
Thanks for listening in.
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