What does passion really look like on a product team? In this episode, Hannah sits down with Norma Løvhaugen, VP Strategy at Neat, to unpack how passion fuels team collaboration, customer empathy, and a culture of innovation. They explore the difference between building products with passion versus simply shipping features—and why that distinction matters more than ever in an age of generative AI.
Norma shares how Neat channels passion into a uniquely cohesive product experience, from obsessing over fabric swatches to translating human nuance into video conferencing. It’s a conversation about ownership, trust, and the magic that happens when design and engineering speak the same language (and respect each other's craft).
Resources from this episode:
- Subscribe to The Product Manager newsletter
- Connect with Norma on LinkedIn
- Check out Neat
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hannah Clark (00:01):
If you'd asked me to define the word
'passion' two years ago,I'm not sure I would've
had a great answer for you.
I might have said it's notreally excitement, it's
not really skill, but it'ssomething in that arena.
But these days, now thatyou can generate just about
everything, I've been thinkinga lot about the things that you
can't conjure up with AI, thethings that are uniquely human.
And at the heart ofthat, I believe, are the
(00:22):
intangibles that feed theconnections between people.
So with that in mind, Ithink I've finally figured
out what passion reallymeans—it's not just about
being interested in something,or being really good at it.
It's the energy atthe center of that.
It doesn't just motivate you tobuild skill and expertise, but
also has the power to galvanizethe team around you into action.
My guest today is NormaLøvhaugen, VP Strategy at
(00:45):
Meat, and she and I share thebelief that passion is that
special ingredient that is atthe heart of collaboration,
innovation, and excellence.
Norma pauses that having allthe technical building blocks
in place is a great start, butthat teams need passion in order
to build something exceptional.
You're about to hear how theteam at Neat folds passion
into their culture, the vitalrole of predictability in your
(01:05):
product offering, and an odeto the art of the possible.
Let's jump in.
Oh, by the way, wehold conversations
like this every week.
So if this sounds interestingto you, why not subscribe?
Okay, now let's jump in.
Welcome back to TheProduct Manager podcast.
We are here todaywith Norma Løvhaugen.
She's the VP Strategy at Neat.
(01:26):
Norma, thank you for makingtime to visit with us today.
Norma Løvhaugen (01:28):
Thank you.
Thank you so muchfor inviting me.
I love this topic.
Hannah Clark (01:32):
Yeah, me too.
I'm really excitedto dig into it.
But before we get into that,can you tell us a little
bit about your backgroundand how you arrived at
where you are today at Neat.
Norma Løvhaugen (01:39):
I started in tech in around 2020 and then
I've been in video conferencingindustry for 20 years.
And the beautiful thing abouttech is that you can go in
so many different directionsand you get to explore both
different parts of technology,but also how it is working
together with a lot of people.
So I've gone into more ofleadership roles, so both
(02:00):
like project manager andalso been leading the project
team and I think it's superexciting and fascinating.
How we can bring likebrilliant people together
and the outcomes beautifulproducts and experiences.
So I've been lucky.
Hannah Clark (02:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
I appreciate a moment ofgratitude and I'm very excited
to talk about this topic.
Today we're gonna be focusingon the roles of passion
and collaboration with anorganization, which I think
right now in a very generativeAI heavy time is so important
to really highlight some ofthese things that aren't so
easily replaced by machines.
So let's talk a little bit aboutthe magic that happens when
(02:39):
passionate teams come together.
What are some of the waysthat you've seen this manifest
in your leadership career?
Norma Løvhaugen (02:43):
Yeah, I think it's really fascinating.
I think, so when we buildvideo conferencing products,
it needs to be a reallycombination of different
engineering disciplines workingtogether, cross-functionally.
What I see is thatwith teams that have a
high degree of trust.
And that understandseach other and play on
each other's strengths.
(03:04):
They really make high qualityproducts and I think to get
to that, when you reallyhave those teams that are
connected and are open witheach other, both when it
comes to ideas and challenges.
And when that is receivedin a constructive way
and taken seriously, youcontinuously build both a
(03:25):
shared understanding of eachother's discipline, a shared
understanding of what it'll taketo bring out those products,
but also, how it can be incertain teams if it's only
acceptable to be positive andsay the come with new ideas
and never raise concerns.
You also don't see thequality issues early enough.
So it's really good when youthen have those teams that are
(03:49):
fully open with each other.
They will also then bring outpotential challenges really
early and have that opendialogue between whether it's
mechanics and electronics andsoftware, in that combination.
I think that's areally good setup.
I think that having a sharedunderstanding of context
of why you do something isthat's where it starts, right?
(04:11):
When everyone understands.
Why they are makingthis product?
What's the core job of theproduct, the problem that it'll
solve, and the value that it'sgoing to bring to our customers?
That's where it starts.
And then they can work on,okay, so how do we solve
this in the most optimal way?
And then I feel like the magicalso happens when, let's say
(04:31):
we have a problem that needsto be solved, and we believe
that, okay, this is a new typeof product that we haven't
had in the market before.
Sitting them together aroundthe table with engineers from
the different disciplines,discussing everything
from camera technologyto how to provide the
right type of flexibility.
(04:52):
Chewing on challenges likefor instance, we have a
product called Neat Center.
And what Neat Center doesis that it picks up people
that are sitting across thetable and it works together
with our main device.
And then it's importantthat product doesn't pick up
people that are on foreign endshown on the other display.
So then when you then sittogether and discuss how to
(05:13):
solve that, both from a designperspective, but then you also
have video engineers that cansay hey, we can actually use
AI and machine learning todetect if there's people on that
display and then not show thosepeople in the video stream.
So discussing theproblems together as
a group really helps.
(05:34):
And when you do that early,you make sure that you have a
solid product from the start.
And also that people have,when they've chewed on these
type of challenges together,they also know how to drive
the product during the projectphase because they've all
been part of the conversation.
That kind of brings up thedetails of the product.
Hannah Clark (05:55):
I'm a big fan of this problem first, and
looking for solutions firstmethod of initial development.
As it really seems like there isa school of thought of trying to
just have everyone collaborateon the specifications of the
product as one person envisionsit, rather than trying to
collaborate, which disciplinescan maybe contribute something
(06:17):
to solving this problem thatanother discipline may not
have thought was possible,or may not have insight into.
I really think that's reallya great way to go about it.
Just focusing on the jobsto be done and how can we
respond to it best with allof our disciplines combined.
You said before in aconversation we'd had prior,
that passion in your viewmight be more important than
data skills, and I imaginethat also extends to other
(06:38):
kinds of hard skills as well.
Can you talk a littlebit more about this?
What does passion mean to you?
How do you see that playout in your experience?
Norma Løvhau (06:45):
Yes, I believe it.
Potentially doing hiring, right?
In an interview setting,I'm looking for three
areas, and it's passion,integrity, and competence.
But I believe the passion oneis the most important, right?
Because when you have peoplewith passion that wants
to do a good job and wantsto do what's best for,
(07:05):
in our case, for needs.
Then they willfind a way, right?
Then they will make surethat, oh, if there's something
they don't know, they willbring in the right people.
If there's something they needto learn, they will go and
learn and they will also thenbe a good, often it's tied to
also high integrity, right?
If you also have people withhigh integrity, they will work
really well in a team settingand do what's best for the team,
(07:29):
for the colleagues, and alsofor the product and and needs.
I think like that core passionis just super important.
When you can see someonethat is just driven by what
they do, they believe in theproduct, they believe in the
experience, and they alsothen tend bring out passion
in other people, right?
Because then it's almost likecontagious when someone is
(07:51):
passionate about what they do.
They talk about itin a positive way.
They're eager to get it done.
They bring people together.
They talk about it overthe coffee machine or over
lunch, and it becomes thispositive atmosphere of
bringing a product out.
I remember once we werea team working on a
really cool project.
One of the people in theproject team, he was like,
(08:13):
I can't believe we'regetting paid to do this.
We're having some funand we're getting paid.
But that just sayssomething, right?
They're having fun,passion, and just yeah.
Hannah Clark (08:24):
Yeah, that's exactly the kind of attitude
where someone would bedoing what they're doing
as a hobby if they weren'tdoing it as a career.
I tend to agree.
Even when we think aboutproducing this podcast, that
is the one thing that isreally paramount to us when
producing the show, is whenwe're talking to people.
It's always possible to askpeople about a trending topic
or something that might bewithin their wheelhouse,
but really the way we tryto lead with is what are you
(08:45):
passionate about right now?
Because that energy isso palpable, you can even
hear it on the other end.
Whoever's listening right nowis gonna hear your passion about
passion, I think that translatesto so many things in life.
Norma Løvhaugen (08:57):
Yeah.
And I also think from aleadership perspective
then it's important toexactly what you say, right?
Like you do in the podcast,like also detect, okay, how can
you trigger the passion in theproduct team and being mindful
about those triggers, right?
For instance, it can be thingslike ownership, for instance.
I know that if peoplehave really ownership
(09:19):
to the solution, they'realso passionate about it.
If they feel like they'vebeen part of defining
and understanding andsetting the agenda for the
product, they also oftenrun with it, with passion.
Hannah Clark (09:31):
Yeah.
And I suppose there's alsosome element of understanding.
I think that a lot of thetime we might have someone
who is very passionateabout the problem, very
passionate about the product,who are really believe in
the cause of the mission.
And then there's some folks whoare just extremely passionate
about their field, the craftthat they do, that they would
just, they're looking foran opportunity, a challenge
(09:52):
to apply that competency.
And so I think it's importantalso to know, is this person
that I'm speaking to moreinterested or will they dig
more in to the idea of thechallenge to apply their
knowledge and their skillset?
Or are they just going to bereally focused on the mission
and how do we serve that needand really nail that solution?
Norma Løvhaugen (10:11):
Yeah, and I think people are driven
by different things, toyour point, some are super
passionate about technology.
Some are super passionateabout the customer and the
kind of the product innovation.
Others are passionateabout being part of a
team and working together.
And yeah, absolutelywe need the whole mix.
It becomes magic when youhave that some of people with
(10:31):
different both competenciesbut also different passions.
Hannah Clark (10:34):
Absolutely.
I tend to think that, if you'rein, let's say a room with
someone who's very passionateabout the solution and someone
who's very passionate abouttheir craft, the person who's
passionate about the solutionis transmitting that passion
to everyone to get them excitedand on board, and the person
who's excited about their craftis able to just get the buy-in
for their vision for how thatexecution might take place.
(10:54):
I think that's very energizing.
I I think that's the beautyabout collaboration that
we don't get, I no shadeto AI as a ideation tool.
I think it's very useful, butnothing really beats that, that
energy that gets going whenyou have a brainstorm happening
where everyone is really excitedand talking over each other
because their ideas are they'recoming to them so naturally
(11:14):
that's a wonderful thing.
So when we talk about gettingall of these things flowing
in more of an orderly fashion.
We can't just have ideas poppingout that aren't on topic.
What are some of the productprinciples that need that sort
of set the tone for what makesa Neat product that kind of
everyone has to fall under?
Can you tell me a littlebit about those principles
and how they influence yourproduct development process?
Norma Løvhaugen (11:35):
Ah, good point.
Yeah, so all from thebeginning of Neat, even the
name frames a little bitabout the personality of our
product and what we are about.
And we reallycontinuously evolved that.
So the principles havestayed pretty solid, but we
constantly talk about themand remind ourself about
(11:57):
them, and it becomes partof our DNA and I think it
goes through our product.
It becomes the personalityof our product as well.
Customers know that ifthey buy a Neat product,
this is what to expect.
Of course, the products evolve,experiences continuously evolve.
There's some key principles.
For instance, we put a lotof effort in making sure that
(12:19):
everything is simple and easyto use, and if we're not able
to achieve that, we try again.
We also constantly evolve ourjust our out box experience.
It's an experience wherewe're never going to
say that we're done.
We constantly want smallthings, and it's the bigger
things, small things arethat we, for instance.
(12:40):
We automatically detect whichtime zone someone is the
installation is in, right?
That makes it justremove on friction.
You don't have to scroll throughthe list to find the deal.
You just click.
I think the QR code to the box,making sure that everything
is in the box and just toconstantly evolve and figure
out what are the frictionsin the setup and installation
(13:02):
that we can enhance alsoin for the product, sorry,
in the current product.
And we taken thatpretty far out as well.
When we develop our product,it's really core to the
beginning of definingthe product is how easy
should it be to set it up.
The mounts, for instance.
What are the mounts?
That's a big thing for us.
And so that's one thing.
(13:22):
Another is focusing inon what's actually the
core job of our products.
What's the purposeof our product?
When a customer buyfrom us, what is it that
they want the product tobe and help them with?
And it's so easy to get lostin all types of different
corner requirements, right?
And we know that we haveto solve for, for instance,
different network requirements.
(13:43):
Super important, right?
And lots of, potentialdeployment blockers, bugs, we
need to fix that, but remindourself what's the core job?
And for us, the core jobis human connection, right?
We believe that when people,regardless of where they're
physically located, if theycan see and hear each other
clearly, see the nonverbalcommunication, look each other
(14:05):
in the eyes, see who's nodding,who's smiling, who's paying
attention, who's looking at who.
And also from an audio side,that everyone should be
able to talk without anyonebeing suppressed, right?
So that you can havethat natural flow
where you say, and yes.
And so that part just makesup a really good human
connection, which we knowin terms build trust, right?
(14:25):
Between team members orpeople meeting on video.
And that also then becomesreally good teams, right?
Because teams that trusteach other have good
human communicationor human connection.
Also work really well together.
So that's the coreof our products.
So that also sets the tonefor how we evolve both
(14:46):
audio and video experiencesand what we do there.
Another core principle isthat we want our product
to be very flexible.
So then what we mean by thatis that we constantly evolve
and expand on the use caseswith our products so that our
customers can use them for more.
So that when a customer buys aproduct from us, it continuously
(15:07):
evolves through softwareupgrades during the lifetime.
So the buy it with one value,but then we take it upon
ourselves to continuouslyincrease that value for
our customers, making surethat it's future ready with
different use cases, differentapplications that can run on it.
So those are someof the principles.
And then of course, it needs tobe very neat and tidy and clean,
(15:29):
and that's the essence of it.
If we feel like somethingis very complicated or
not neat, then we go backto the drawing board.
Okay, let's rethinkthis once more.
Hannah Clark (15:40):
I really love how you transmit these.
I suppose like guidingprinciples or kind of brand
values into the decision making.
I really think that thisis a piece of branding
that doesn't always getappreciated by product teams
is the power of some ofthose principles to really
guide the decision making.
We did a, an episode sometimeago with Veronica Debt that
(16:02):
I think of when we're talkingabout this, about product
vision and how having avery clear vision of how the
product should be or whatthe mission is specifically,
or what the values are thatguide you as an organization.
Really, it's notjust marketing fluff.
It really can be a guidingcompass for how do you approach
decision making as a teamor you know, what's kind the
impartial decision making matrixthat you can use in order to
(16:25):
decide, does this really matchup with who we are as a company
and who we are as a product?
So I, yeah, I think that thosekinds of clear tactics and
connecting the dots betweensome of those principles
and how they affect thedevelopment process is really
useful for us to understand.
I do wanna talk also aboutthe art of the possible, which
I think is just a beautifulphrase in general, but as far
as approaching the balance of,the engineering side and the
(16:49):
desire to push boundaries froma design perspective, how do
you keep these things in tandemand translate them into a really
exceptional user experience?
Norma Løvhaugen (16:59):
I think that's super exciting myself.
Because often the design team isamazing at drawing out a vision
and different type of stories.
Of course, we have ouroverarching vision, but
also within differentparts of what we do.
What I sometimes think isreally magic is also how our
design team work really closelywith the engineering team.
(17:20):
And sometimes it's even theengineering team that pushes
the design team, right?
Because the design team mighthave a vision, but that's often
also based on technology today.
And sometimes the engineeringteam knows more about, okay,
the art of the possible froman engineering perspective.
And we see that when it comesto machine learning or AI in
our products, when the videoteam can say, Hey, we can know
(17:43):
everything that's going on.
We have the digital camerathat kind of knows everything
that's going on in front ofthe device, and that kind
of gives some unlimitedpotential in a way, right?
In terms of how we providedifferent views for foreign,
for instance, but thenalso how a video team and
(18:04):
audio team at need workreally closely together.
So sometimes the audioteam leverages knowledge
that the video team hasin their view, right?
And based on this magicthat then happens between
the video team, the audioteam, and the design team,
and other engineeringteams at need as well.
I think that's how we areable to evolve the art of
(18:26):
the possible, because thenthe sign might say, oh,
we believe that this couldbe a strong vision, right?
Then the video team or otherteams can add to that or
point it in a maybe slightlydifferent direction, and
then it evolves and then yousee, oh, is that possible?
Oh, we thought itwas just 16 by nine.
No, it can be any side.
And then the ballstarts rolling.
(18:47):
But I think it's to what yousaid initially as well, when
people are together and theyhave that human connection
and they trust each other,then you get that magic happen
when you know one word takesanother and they start to
draw out potential new, moreinnovative experiences together.
What ties into thatis understanding the
(19:09):
problem to solve.
That's also a really corepart of how we do things.
That we spend time andthat's some of what the
design team, I think areexceptionally good at this.
Focusing in on what's theactual problem for the user
or for our customers thatwe're trying to solve for.
And then getting tothe essence of that.
And then we understand theirproblem because often they
(19:31):
come to us and they havean ask, can you do this?
And then our design team ismore like what do you mean?
What's the actual problem?
Are you, because that's how itwas sold 10 years ago, or is
it and then when we then digin, we can see that okay, from
how technology has evolved,machine learning and ai and.
Other parts, the hardwarecomponents has also gone
(19:51):
through a lot of enhancementsand then combining that gives
some new opportunities and newways of solving old problems.
It's about doingthe obvious, right?
There's things in theindustry, I've been in video
conferencing industry for20 years and there's certain
things that we've alwaysbeen discussing things.
(20:13):
How high should the camerabe for good eye contact?
Would the display beflushed with the meeting
room table or should itbe a little bit higher?
So the camera be underneaththe display, things like that.
We've always been discussing.
And then the design teamjust did the obvious with
the latest word product.
They created the lift so thecustomer can choose because
there's no right and wrong.
It's more type of usecase and different type
(20:35):
of rooms and so then weprovided that flexibility.
And it's just asimple thing in a way.
It's strange that they havedone it before in the industry.
Hannah Clark (20:44):
I think that's often the case, is the most
elegant solution is thesimplest one and the one
that seems almost so obvious.
That it's, oh, that's it kindof been done before, but often
it's the low hanging fruit.
I'm so fascinated with theways in which user needs and
use cases translates to, like,how do we respond with these
(21:04):
really elegant solutions?
What are some of the otheruser experience elements
that you find reallycritical to get right when
we're trying to facilitateeffective human connection?
Norma Løvhaugen (21:13):
Through video, for instance?
For us right now, we're tryingto understand what's actually
happening in a meeting, right?
Diving into why is itwhen you sit in a room,
you feel a lot closer topeople and we believe that.
It's understanding all thecontext in the room, right?
It's not just seeing thenonverbal communication from
(21:36):
each person, but it's alsoseeing how people in the
room interact with each otherand who's looking at who.
There's certain things that arehard to replicate, but that's
why it's so interesting todive into as well, and for us.
We see that in those meetingswhere we are able to have a good
(21:57):
video from every participantwhere you can see the different
facial expressions and alsodifferent body language.
And then of course, toneof voice has a lot to say.
How something is saidis super important.
We also know that what we dowith need symmetry is that we
focus in on each individualso that we crop them out and
(22:20):
bring them closer so thatforeign gets a closeup view
of everyone in the room.
But we also know that sometimesforeign actually needs to
see the dynamic in the room.
Kind of, they need toread the room in a way.
So how do we provide and howdo we, through intelligence
in our products, understand.
(22:40):
What to do when, soproblems like that I think
is super fascinating.
Our goal is always to makesure that foreign feels really
included in the meeting room.
And that's also why we developneeds center so that we can
bring far and more in thecenter of the conversation.
A center is placed with audiovideo on the table, right?
So that Farden getsvideo from directly.
(23:04):
On the table if people aretalking across the table instead
of towards the video system.
So things like thatreally enhances the
experience for far end.
And I think the more we canprovide all that type of a
human connection, the moreI think people naturally
just trust each other.
If we have a meeting now,when someone doesn't have
video on, you feel likeyou're in the blind, right?
Hannah Clark (23:28):
Yeah, and it's so funny how this is even a
user habit that's changed overtime, where I think initially
when video conferencingwas starting to become more
popular and remote work wasbecoming more commonplace,
people were a little reluctantto have the video on.
It seems a little bit invasive.
And now the user behaviorsreally evolved in which when
you attend a meeting and peoplehave their video off, it's
(23:49):
like really feels like you're.
Not everyone is actuallythere, or that people
are partially there.
I think there's a lot tobe said about that sort
of intangible element ofeveryone being there together.
That I think is reallyfascinating how you folks
are really trying tocapture that and bring
that into a digital realm.
This is really so fascinatinghow these experiences
(24:10):
that we know intrinsicallylike that experience in
an analog sense and how.
How much has to go intoit, how much thought goes
into translating and takingthat experience into more
of a remote friendly tool.
It's so cool.
Now that we're on the topicof innovation and thinking
about how we translate some ofthese things into solutions,
I feel like innovation,this is something that we've
(24:31):
talked about before on theshow too, how innovation is.
It's more complexthan just a verb.
It's really, there's some, a lotof things that go into creating
the conditions for innovation.
So what's the process at need?
How do you create thoseenvironments where you can
get innovation flowing outof the people in the room?
Norma Løvhaugen (24:50):
Yeah, I think that's super interesting as
well, because you cannot put10 engineers in the room and
say, Hey, let's be innovative.
Because then i's whatare we going to do?
And it sounds like alsothis ground work, right?
That you have to find outsomething really crazy and new.
And I think that sometimesinnovation is also just the
smaller things and pieces thatkind of adds up and really
(25:14):
becomes a good user experience.
And for us.
It's often more about whatproblems and context is
provided, to solve a problem.
And then I thoughtit was interesting.
A designer that I worked withonce said that they've been
at the design workshop orkind of a training, and then
the facilitator said, okay,everyone now design five pots.
(25:38):
Five pots for thekitchen, right?
And then.
Five.
That's really hard tofind five alternatives.
You have a handle, youhave a lid, then you have
what's the difference?
And then they were chewingon that for 15, 20 minutes.
And then he said you're goingto actually do this task one
more time, but this time you'regoing to draw inspiration
from the car industry.
(25:58):
And innovation bubbled, right?
You got all sorts of potsand they all drew like much
more than five each, right?
You had windows, you hadthe speedometer or kind
of temperature meter.
You got a lot moreinnovative pots.
So for us, we look atinnovation more as, okay,
what are the problemsthat we're going to solve?
(26:18):
And then when we knowthat and the problems go.
Then it's often good todiscuss and hear from everyone.
I think often that's a keypart of it as well, getting
everyone to contribute, right?
I think that's also how wecreate that magic, and again,
that's based on trust and thefeeling like, okay, your ideas
(26:40):
or concerns are valuable, right?
And how to get to that teamdynamic where everyone is
sharing and contributingand listening to each
other, and you get that.
Really healthy dynamic.
I think that's a really goodfoundation for innovation.
And then keeping in mindthat, and then we also talk
about innovation is notnecessarily those bigger things.
Sometimes it's the simplethings, the simple changes
(27:02):
that adds up, like the liftingmechanism that we did or
they did something else.
Also, the, our board canbe wheeled around and then
it looks like a designelement because the Floris
stand goes in like this.
But what it actually is that ifyou wheel it over a door, is it
the door step that it's called?
Yeah.
In English, then that'sa handle for you.
(27:23):
You just lift it and thenit makes it easier to
pull it over the doorstep.
So just those minor thingsthat has been thought through.
And I think that's alsopart of how we do, we do
prototypes really early.
The design team and themechanical team works
together and they make firstit's just cardboard, right?
To test out device and testout the different pieces of
(27:44):
it and testing out all the usecases early, because that's
how you see what would theuser need and the customer
need from the product.
And I think that's also partof driving the innovation and.
The simplicity of it.
Hannah Clark (27:59):
Yeah.
I really like the idea ofbeing able to observe, how is
the user likely to use thisor get a sense of how they
might adapt to the prototype.
How do you adapt theprototype to them?
Also, I have to say, theexample that you gave with
the pot story really remindsme of an innovation workshop
that I did early in my careerthat has never left me, and we
did a very similar challenge.
(28:19):
The challenge was todesign implements for
a child's playground.
And none of us had anybackground in design.
None of us had any backgroundin engineering for children's
ed, recreational structures.
So we were lost for ideas.
But then the second promptwas, okay, now take inspiration
from a bowl of fruit.
And then suddenly the ideasjust flew out of people.
(28:42):
And it's so funny, and I,this has really changed my
perspective on constraintsas a tool for creativity and
innovation, is that when you.
Inject these sort of unexpectedelements, that juxtaposition
of unexpected things, eventhough it creates what could
be a challenging constraint,can often really make the
whole process feel like play.
And yeah, the energy thatcomes out of it is just
(29:03):
magical, as you mentioned.
So speaking to listeners here,if you haven't tried this
as an exercise, I think isreally interesting to see what
happens when you're ideating onsomething and then you throw in
something completely out of leftfield just to see what happens.
Really inspiring.
I wanna talk about productpredictability and consistency.
So when we talk about, youmentioned prototyping early
(29:25):
and keeping all of theseideas collaborative in terms
of the development process.
But a big part of that too,that I can imagine is really
challenging is when you'vegot a lot of products that are
being developed concurrently.
How do you keep thatconsistency so that everything
feels like a Neat product?
Norma Løvhaug (29:41):
Yeah, good point.
It ties very closely back tothe kind of the core principles
that we have on simplicity, easyset, focusing in what's the core
job of the product, what's Neatand our flavor on the products.
When we focus in on that,I think that's helps us
do that predictability.
(30:02):
But then we also makesure that kind of the
overall design languageis also consistent, right?
The design team is continuouslyworking on that, and sometimes
I'm really fascinated byhow thorough they can be.
Right?
Once one of the designersindustrial designers came
off, the manzi had threepieces of gray fabric
(30:22):
on like aboard plate.
And he said, what do youthink of the difference
of these gray fabrics?
And I was like, to me,they're exactly the same.
I'm not able to see anything.
And he said there is adifference, but we're trying to
figure out if it's an acceptabledifference from our suppliers.
So that if they buy threeproducts from us, that
(30:43):
it has the same shadeof gray on the fabric.
It was really fascinating.
And then he explainedthe difference.
One was a little bitmore yellow, one had
maybe a bit more texture.
To me, they looked all the same,but if I really paid attention,
maybe I could see some, butthat's how thorough they are.
On the different parts of theprocess or just like the edge,
(31:05):
like the corners of the system.
Right.
If it's not exactly right, thenthe fabric doesn't bend over
like the in the right way, theydo it over and prototype again.
So it's, I think that's fromthe outer side of the product.
But then when it comesto software, we have the
same software runningacross all our products,
and I think that's also.
Helps us be very predictable.
(31:27):
Of course, there's, dependingon hardware capabilities,
there's variations, but thesame kind of way of using
the products across, and Ithink that's really some of
the essence of creating thatpredictability, that when our
customers then buy somethingfrom Neat, they know that it's,
oh, it's super simple to set up.
It's really solidand good design.
(31:49):
It's great quality, neverbreaks, but it also ties into
a few other things, right?
I talk a lot about products,but we, I think it's also
something about us being neatin our way of talking and being
with our customers as well.
We are approachable, weare available, and I.
Accessible to our customers,and we love to hear from them
(32:09):
and we're not hiding from them.
So there's a lot of partsthat need flavor that goes
beyond our products as well.
Hannah Clark (32:16):
Speaking of the gray fabrics, I'm thinking
about this and I can seehow in, in a decision making
capacity, looking at threethings on a plate, it can
seem like a very immaterial.
Decision, but theseare really the things
that customers notice.
I can think about times whenI've picked up a product and
noticed an inconsistency in theshade of something or how it
(32:38):
feels like these are these firstimpressions that actually make
an impression on people that maybe looking at things presented
side by side on a plate, mayseem like they're negligible,
but to the user that reallywe're really paying attention.
And I think that the samething is true with as you
mentioned, predictability withthe experience of software.
As a user, I think that there'snothing more jarring than
(33:01):
finding an update that hasdisrupted your workflow or
that things that used to beintuitive because you felt like
you got to know the producthave become unintuitive It.
When you find a learningcurve again and something
that feels it's veryjarring, I can appreciate
the respect for the user.
In ensuring that thepredictability is there and
that things are exciting bybeing couched in the familiar.
(33:23):
But as a user, I approve.
Norma Løvhaugen (33:28):
That's good.
And also, by the way,there's one more thing that
reminds me of that I alsothink is important is that.
The one that has thediscipline makes the
decision in a way, right?
So for instance, when it cameto those gray, three gray,
it's up to that designerto make the decision.
But what I think ishealthy is that he walks
around and collect.
(33:48):
Input, right?
He asks a lot of peopleand based on kind of the,
some of the feedback thathe gets, he makes the call.
And I think that's importantalso because when people are
responsible for the decisionmade in their field, like
the audio team is responsiblefor the audio, right?
They make the decisionsin terms of should we
have this microphone areaor this speaker, and how
(34:10):
should the algorithms be?
I think that also createsboth pride, but also
makes them want to havethis as good as possible.
They put their competenceand passion into it.
Hannah Clark (34:22):
Yeah.
It comes back tohaving that passion.
Yeah.
I've seen a lot of coveragelately on the new partnership
with Sam Altman and Jony Ive,and it sounds like really
what's being highlightedthere is that Jony Ive working
together with Sam Altman hasmore to do with the obsession
factor that Jony brings to aprocess than anything else.
And that they that reallyspeaks to the value of
(34:44):
passion within the process.
On a very big scale.
Yes.
To wrap up since we've covereda lot of territory here, if
we were to leave our listenerswith just one thing, the
biggest lesson that you'velearned in terms of facilitating
collaboration between designand engineering, what would you
say is the most important thingyou've learned in the process
of working with these teams?
Norma Løvhaugen (35:04):
I think it's the ownership piece, right?
People, when we do somethingthat me or anyone else shouldn't
come into the team, I. And say,this is what we are going to do.
This is the product thatwe're going to make.
Then you get no ownershipand it probably won't be
a good product either.
But going in there and sayingsomething like, our customers
(35:27):
have a problem with thesetype of spaces, for instance,
or these type of solutions,they need something neat.
And then you get theoverarching the team and it
needs to be the team that isgoing to make the product.
Then they start discussing,okay, how can we then,
in the best possible way,provide a need product that
solve for that problem?
And that's how I think themagic happens between the
(35:50):
disciplines and how we define.
That product together.
And when everyone's been partof that process, everyone
knows what to do to deliverthe product in a way also and
makes decisions themself asthey go, and they're fully
empowered to do I thinkthat's maybe number one.
And then also the overallcan do attitude, right?
That people believe thatthings are possible.
(36:11):
Yeah, of course we can do that.
And then the teammagically works together
to make it happen.
Hannah Clark (36:17):
Yeah, it's all about having the
right people in the room.
Thank you for this wonderfulconversation, Norma.
I I can really tell that yourpassion is shining through for
this kind of work, so this isalways the best kind of thing
to participate in and talkabout things that energize us.
Where can folks followyour work online?
Norma Løvhaugen (36:32):
So you can follow us on Neat.no,
that's where we have allour products and experiences
to learn more about that.
And also on LinkedIn, you canfollow Neat meetings there.
And I'm also on LinkedIn.
I'm so lucky that my,my LinkedIn handle is
just linkedin.com/norma.
Don't know how thathappens, I think I just
(36:53):
got lucky Sometimes.
Hannah Clark (36:55):
Sometimes the most elegant solution
is the simplest one.
Thank you so much forjoining us, Norma.
Norma Løvhau (37:00):
Thank you so much.
Hannah Clark (37:04):
Thanks for listening in.
For more great insights, how-toguides, and tool reviews,
subscribe to our newsletter attheproductmanager.com/subscribe.
You can hear more conversationslike this by subscribing to
The Product Manager whereveryou get your podcasts.
If you'd asked me to define the word
'passion' two years ago,I'm not sure I would've
had a great answer for you.
I might have said it's notreally excitement, it's
not really skill, but it'ssomething in that arena.
But these days, now thatyou can generate just about
everything, I've been thinkinga lot about the things that you
can't conjure up with AI, thethings that are uniquely human.
And at the heart ofthat, I believe, are the
(00:22):
intangibles that feed theconnections between people.
So with that in mind, Ithink I've finally figured
out what passion reallymeans—it's not just about
being interested in something,or being really good at it.
It's the energy atthe center of that.
It doesn't just motivate you tobuild skill and expertise, but
also has the power to galvanizethe team around you into action.
My guest today is NormaLøvhaugen, VP Strategy at
(00:45):
Meat, and she and I share thebelief that passion is that
special ingredient that is atthe heart of collaboration,
innovation, and excellence.
Norma pauses that having allthe technical building blocks
in place is a great start, butthat teams need passion in order
to build something exceptional.
You're about to hear how theteam at Neat folds passion
into their culture, the vitalrole of predictability in your
(01:05):
product offering, and an odeto the art of the possible.
Let's jump in.
Oh, by the way, wehold conversations
like this every week.
So if this sounds interestingto you, why not subscribe?
Okay, now let's jump in.
Welcome back to TheProduct Manager podcast.
We are here todaywith Norma Løvhaugen.
She's the VP Strategy at Neat.
(01:26):
Norma, thank you for makingtime to visit with us today.
Norma Løvhaugen (01:28):
Thank you.
Thank you so muchfor inviting me.
I love this topic.
Hannah Clark (01:32):
Yeah, me too.
I'm really excitedto dig into it.
But before we get into that,can you tell us a little
bit about your backgroundand how you arrived at
where you are today at Neat.
Norma Løvhaugen (01:39):
I started in tech in around 2020 and then
I've been in video conferencingindustry for 20 years.
And the beautiful thing abouttech is that you can go in
so many different directionsand you get to explore both
different parts of technology,but also how it is working
together with a lot of people.
So I've gone into more ofleadership roles, so both
(02:00):
like project manager andalso been leading the project
team and I think it's superexciting and fascinating.
How we can bring likebrilliant people together
and the outcomes beautifulproducts and experiences.
So I've been lucky.
Hannah Clark (02:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
I appreciate a moment ofgratitude and I'm very excited
to talk about this topic.
Today we're gonna be focusingon the roles of passion
and collaboration with anorganization, which I think
right now in a very generativeAI heavy time is so important
to really highlight some ofthese things that aren't so
easily replaced by machines.
So let's talk a little bit aboutthe magic that happens when
(02:39):
passionate teams come together.
What are some of the waysthat you've seen this manifest
in your leadership career?
Norma Løvhaugen (02:43):
Yeah, I think it's really fascinating.
I think, so when we buildvideo conferencing products,
it needs to be a reallycombination of different
engineering disciplines workingtogether, cross-functionally.
What I see is thatwith teams that have a
high degree of trust.
And that understandseach other and play on
each other's strengths.
(03:04):
They really make high qualityproducts and I think to get
to that, when you reallyhave those teams that are
connected and are open witheach other, both when it
comes to ideas and challenges.
And when that is receivedin a constructive way
and taken seriously, youcontinuously build both a
(03:25):
shared understanding of eachother's discipline, a shared
understanding of what it'll taketo bring out those products,
but also, how it can be incertain teams if it's only
acceptable to be positive andsay the come with new ideas
and never raise concerns.
You also don't see thequality issues early enough.
So it's really good when youthen have those teams that are
(03:49):
fully open with each other.
They will also then bring outpotential challenges really
early and have that opendialogue between whether it's
mechanics and electronics andsoftware, in that combination.
I think that's areally good setup.
I think that having a sharedunderstanding of context
of why you do something isthat's where it starts, right?
(04:11):
When everyone understands.
Why they are makingthis product?
What's the core job of theproduct, the problem that it'll
solve, and the value that it'sgoing to bring to our customers?
That's where it starts.
And then they can work on,okay, so how do we solve
this in the most optimal way?
And then I feel like the magicalso happens when, let's say
(04:31):
we have a problem that needsto be solved, and we believe
that, okay, this is a new typeof product that we haven't
had in the market before.
Sitting them together aroundthe table with engineers from
the different disciplines,discussing everything
from camera technologyto how to provide the
right type of flexibility.
(04:52):
Chewing on challenges likefor instance, we have a
product called Neat Center.
And what Neat Center doesis that it picks up people
that are sitting across thetable and it works together
with our main device.
And then it's importantthat product doesn't pick up
people that are on foreign endshown on the other display.
So then when you then sittogether and discuss how to
(05:13):
solve that, both from a designperspective, but then you also
have video engineers that cansay hey, we can actually use
AI and machine learning todetect if there's people on that
display and then not show thosepeople in the video stream.
So discussing theproblems together as
a group really helps.
(05:34):
And when you do that early,you make sure that you have a
solid product from the start.
And also that people have,when they've chewed on these
type of challenges together,they also know how to drive
the product during the projectphase because they've all
been part of the conversation.
That kind of brings up thedetails of the product.
Hannah Clark (05:55):
I'm a big fan of this problem first, and
looking for solutions firstmethod of initial development.
As it really seems like there isa school of thought of trying to
just have everyone collaborateon the specifications of the
product as one person envisionsit, rather than trying to
collaborate, which disciplinescan maybe contribute something
(06:17):
to solving this problem thatanother discipline may not
have thought was possible,or may not have insight into.
I really think that's reallya great way to go about it.
Just focusing on the jobsto be done and how can we
respond to it best with allof our disciplines combined.
You said before in aconversation we'd had prior,
that passion in your viewmight be more important than
data skills, and I imaginethat also extends to other
(06:38):
kinds of hard skills as well.
Can you talk a littlebit more about this?
What does passion mean to you?
How do you see that playout in your experience?
Norma Løvhau (06:45):
Yes, I believe it.
Potentially doing hiring, right?
In an interview setting,I'm looking for three
areas, and it's passion,integrity, and competence.
But I believe the passion oneis the most important, right?
Because when you have peoplewith passion that wants
to do a good job and wantsto do what's best for,
(07:05):
in our case, for needs.
Then they willfind a way, right?
Then they will make surethat, oh, if there's something
they don't know, they willbring in the right people.
If there's something they needto learn, they will go and
learn and they will also thenbe a good, often it's tied to
also high integrity, right?
If you also have people withhigh integrity, they will work
really well in a team settingand do what's best for the team,
(07:29):
for the colleagues, and alsofor the product and and needs.
I think like that core passionis just super important.
When you can see someonethat is just driven by what
they do, they believe in theproduct, they believe in the
experience, and they alsothen tend bring out passion
in other people, right?
Because then it's almost likecontagious when someone is
(07:51):
passionate about what they do.
They talk about itin a positive way.
They're eager to get it done.
They bring people together.
They talk about it overthe coffee machine or over
lunch, and it becomes thispositive atmosphere of
bringing a product out.
I remember once we werea team working on a
really cool project.
One of the people in theproject team, he was like,
(08:13):
I can't believe we'regetting paid to do this.
We're having some funand we're getting paid.
But that just sayssomething, right?
They're having fun,passion, and just yeah.
Hannah Clark (08:24):
Yeah, that's exactly the kind of attitude
where someone would bedoing what they're doing
as a hobby if they weren'tdoing it as a career.
I tend to agree.
Even when we think aboutproducing this podcast, that
is the one thing that isreally paramount to us when
producing the show, is whenwe're talking to people.
It's always possible to askpeople about a trending topic
or something that might bewithin their wheelhouse,
but really the way we tryto lead with is what are you
(08:45):
passionate about right now?
Because that energy isso palpable, you can even
hear it on the other end.
Whoever's listening right nowis gonna hear your passion about
passion, I think that translatesto so many things in life.
Norma Løvhaugen (08:57):
Yeah.
And I also think from aleadership perspective
then it's important toexactly what you say, right?
Like you do in the podcast,like also detect, okay, how can
you trigger the passion in theproduct team and being mindful
about those triggers, right?
For instance, it can be thingslike ownership, for instance.
I know that if peoplehave really ownership
(09:19):
to the solution, they'realso passionate about it.
If they feel like they'vebeen part of defining
and understanding andsetting the agenda for the
product, they also oftenrun with it, with passion.
Hannah Clark (09:31):
Yeah.
And I suppose there's alsosome element of understanding.
I think that a lot of thetime we might have someone
who is very passionateabout the problem, very
passionate about the product,who are really believe in
the cause of the mission.
And then there's some folks whoare just extremely passionate
about their field, the craftthat they do, that they would
just, they're looking foran opportunity, a challenge
(09:52):
to apply that competency.
And so I think it's importantalso to know, is this person
that I'm speaking to moreinterested or will they dig
more in to the idea of thechallenge to apply their
knowledge and their skillset?
Or are they just going to bereally focused on the mission
and how do we serve that needand really nail that solution?
Norma Løvhaugen (10:11):
Yeah, and I think people are driven
by different things, toyour point, some are super
passionate about technology.
Some are super passionateabout the customer and the
kind of the product innovation.
Others are passionateabout being part of a
team and working together.
And yeah, absolutelywe need the whole mix.
It becomes magic when youhave that some of people with
(10:31):
different both competenciesbut also different passions.
Hannah Clark (10:34):
Absolutely.
I tend to think that, if you'rein, let's say a room with
someone who's very passionateabout the solution and someone
who's very passionate abouttheir craft, the person who's
passionate about the solutionis transmitting that passion
to everyone to get them excitedand on board, and the person
who's excited about their craftis able to just get the buy-in
for their vision for how thatexecution might take place.
(10:54):
I think that's very energizing.
I I think that's the beautyabout collaboration that
we don't get, I no shadeto AI as a ideation tool.
I think it's very useful, butnothing really beats that, that
energy that gets going whenyou have a brainstorm happening
where everyone is really excitedand talking over each other
because their ideas are they'recoming to them so naturally
(11:14):
that's a wonderful thing.
So when we talk about gettingall of these things flowing
in more of an orderly fashion.
We can't just have ideas poppingout that aren't on topic.
What are some of the productprinciples that need that sort
of set the tone for what makesa Neat product that kind of
everyone has to fall under?
Can you tell me a littlebit about those principles
and how they influence yourproduct development process?
Norma Løvhaugen (11:35):
Ah, good point.
Yeah, so all from thebeginning of Neat, even the
name frames a little bitabout the personality of our
product and what we are about.
And we reallycontinuously evolved that.
So the principles havestayed pretty solid, but we
constantly talk about themand remind ourself about
(11:57):
them, and it becomes partof our DNA and I think it
goes through our product.
It becomes the personalityof our product as well.
Customers know that ifthey buy a Neat product,
this is what to expect.
Of course, the products evolve,experiences continuously evolve.
There's some key principles.
For instance, we put a lotof effort in making sure that
(12:19):
everything is simple and easyto use, and if we're not able
to achieve that, we try again.
We also constantly evolve ourjust our out box experience.
It's an experience wherewe're never going to
say that we're done.
We constantly want smallthings, and it's the bigger
things, small things arethat we, for instance.
(12:40):
We automatically detect whichtime zone someone is the
installation is in, right?
That makes it justremove on friction.
You don't have to scroll throughthe list to find the deal.
You just click.
I think the QR code to the box,making sure that everything
is in the box and just toconstantly evolve and figure
out what are the frictionsin the setup and installation
(13:02):
that we can enhance alsoin for the product, sorry,
in the current product.
And we taken thatpretty far out as well.
When we develop our product,it's really core to the
beginning of definingthe product is how easy
should it be to set it up.
The mounts, for instance.
What are the mounts?
That's a big thing for us.
And so that's one thing.
(13:22):
Another is focusing inon what's actually the
core job of our products.
What's the purposeof our product?
When a customer buyfrom us, what is it that
they want the product tobe and help them with?
And it's so easy to get lostin all types of different
corner requirements, right?
And we know that we haveto solve for, for instance,
different network requirements.
(13:43):
Super important, right?
And lots of, potentialdeployment blockers, bugs, we
need to fix that, but remindourself what's the core job?
And for us, the core jobis human connection, right?
We believe that when people,regardless of where they're
physically located, if theycan see and hear each other
clearly, see the nonverbalcommunication, look each other
(14:05):
in the eyes, see who's nodding,who's smiling, who's paying
attention, who's looking at who.
And also from an audio side,that everyone should be
able to talk without anyonebeing suppressed, right?
So that you can havethat natural flow
where you say, and yes.
And so that part just makesup a really good human
connection, which we knowin terms build trust, right?
(14:25):
Between team members orpeople meeting on video.
And that also then becomesreally good teams, right?
Because teams that trusteach other have good
human communicationor human connection.
Also work really well together.
So that's the coreof our products.
So that also sets the tonefor how we evolve both
(14:46):
audio and video experiencesand what we do there.
Another core principle isthat we want our product
to be very flexible.
So then what we mean by thatis that we constantly evolve
and expand on the use caseswith our products so that our
customers can use them for more.
So that when a customer buys aproduct from us, it continuously
(15:07):
evolves through softwareupgrades during the lifetime.
So the buy it with one value,but then we take it upon
ourselves to continuouslyincrease that value for
our customers, making surethat it's future ready with
different use cases, differentapplications that can run on it.
So those are someof the principles.
And then of course, it needs tobe very neat and tidy and clean,
(15:29):
and that's the essence of it.
If we feel like somethingis very complicated or
not neat, then we go backto the drawing board.
Okay, let's rethinkthis once more.
Hannah Clark (15:40):
I really love how you transmit these.
I suppose like guidingprinciples or kind of brand
values into the decision making.
I really think that thisis a piece of branding
that doesn't always getappreciated by product teams
is the power of some ofthose principles to really
guide the decision making.
We did a, an episode sometimeago with Veronica Debt that
(16:02):
I think of when we're talkingabout this, about product
vision and how having avery clear vision of how the
product should be or whatthe mission is specifically,
or what the values are thatguide you as an organization.
Really, it's notjust marketing fluff.
It really can be a guidingcompass for how do you approach
decision making as a teamor you know, what's kind the
impartial decision making matrixthat you can use in order to
(16:25):
decide, does this really matchup with who we are as a company
and who we are as a product?
So I, yeah, I think that thosekinds of clear tactics and
connecting the dots betweensome of those principles
and how they affect thedevelopment process is really
useful for us to understand.
I do wanna talk also aboutthe art of the possible, which
I think is just a beautifulphrase in general, but as far
as approaching the balance of,the engineering side and the
(16:49):
desire to push boundaries froma design perspective, how do
you keep these things in tandemand translate them into a really
exceptional user experience?
Norma Løvhaugen (16:59):
I think that's super exciting myself.
Because often the design team isamazing at drawing out a vision
and different type of stories.
Of course, we have ouroverarching vision, but
also within differentparts of what we do.
What I sometimes think isreally magic is also how our
design team work really closelywith the engineering team.
(17:20):
And sometimes it's even theengineering team that pushes
the design team, right?
Because the design team mighthave a vision, but that's often
also based on technology today.
And sometimes the engineeringteam knows more about, okay,
the art of the possible froman engineering perspective.
And we see that when it comesto machine learning or AI in
our products, when the videoteam can say, Hey, we can know
(17:43):
everything that's going on.
We have the digital camerathat kind of knows everything
that's going on in front ofthe device, and that kind
of gives some unlimitedpotential in a way, right?
In terms of how we providedifferent views for foreign,
for instance, but thenalso how a video team and
(18:04):
audio team at need workreally closely together.
So sometimes the audioteam leverages knowledge
that the video team hasin their view, right?
And based on this magicthat then happens between
the video team, the audioteam, and the design team,
and other engineeringteams at need as well.
I think that's how we areable to evolve the art of
(18:26):
the possible, because thenthe sign might say, oh,
we believe that this couldbe a strong vision, right?
Then the video team or otherteams can add to that or
point it in a maybe slightlydifferent direction, and
then it evolves and then yousee, oh, is that possible?
Oh, we thought itwas just 16 by nine.
No, it can be any side.
And then the ballstarts rolling.
(18:47):
But I think it's to what yousaid initially as well, when
people are together and theyhave that human connection
and they trust each other,then you get that magic happen
when you know one word takesanother and they start to
draw out potential new, moreinnovative experiences together.
What ties into thatis understanding the
(19:09):
problem to solve.
That's also a really corepart of how we do things.
That we spend time andthat's some of what the
design team, I think areexceptionally good at this.
Focusing in on what's theactual problem for the user
or for our customers thatwe're trying to solve for.
And then getting tothe essence of that.
And then we understand theirproblem because often they
(19:31):
come to us and they havean ask, can you do this?
And then our design team ismore like what do you mean?
What's the actual problem?
Are you, because that's how itwas sold 10 years ago, or is
it and then when we then digin, we can see that okay, from
how technology has evolved,machine learning and ai and.
Other parts, the hardwarecomponents has also gone
(19:51):
through a lot of enhancementsand then combining that gives
some new opportunities and newways of solving old problems.
It's about doingthe obvious, right?
There's things in theindustry, I've been in video
conferencing industry for20 years and there's certain
things that we've alwaysbeen discussing things.
(20:13):
How high should the camerabe for good eye contact?
Would the display beflushed with the meeting
room table or should itbe a little bit higher?
So the camera be underneaththe display, things like that.
We've always been discussing.
And then the design teamjust did the obvious with
the latest word product.
They created the lift so thecustomer can choose because
there's no right and wrong.
It's more type of usecase and different type
(20:35):
of rooms and so then weprovided that flexibility.
And it's just asimple thing in a way.
It's strange that they havedone it before in the industry.
Hannah Clark (20:44):
I think that's often the case, is the most
elegant solution is thesimplest one and the one
that seems almost so obvious.
That it's, oh, that's it kindof been done before, but often
it's the low hanging fruit.
I'm so fascinated with theways in which user needs and
use cases translates to, like,how do we respond with these
(21:04):
really elegant solutions?
What are some of the otheruser experience elements
that you find reallycritical to get right when
we're trying to facilitateeffective human connection?
Norma Løvhaugen (21:13):
Through video, for instance?
For us right now, we're tryingto understand what's actually
happening in a meeting, right?
Diving into why is itwhen you sit in a room,
you feel a lot closer topeople and we believe that.
It's understanding all thecontext in the room, right?
It's not just seeing thenonverbal communication from
(21:36):
each person, but it's alsoseeing how people in the
room interact with each otherand who's looking at who.
There's certain things that arehard to replicate, but that's
why it's so interesting todive into as well, and for us.
We see that in those meetingswhere we are able to have a good
(21:57):
video from every participantwhere you can see the different
facial expressions and alsodifferent body language.
And then of course, toneof voice has a lot to say.
How something is saidis super important.
We also know that what we dowith need symmetry is that we
focus in on each individualso that we crop them out and
(22:20):
bring them closer so thatforeign gets a closeup view
of everyone in the room.
But we also know that sometimesforeign actually needs to
see the dynamic in the room.
Kind of, they need toread the room in a way.
So how do we provide and howdo we, through intelligence
in our products, understand.
(22:40):
What to do when, soproblems like that I think
is super fascinating.
Our goal is always to makesure that foreign feels really
included in the meeting room.
And that's also why we developneeds center so that we can
bring far and more in thecenter of the conversation.
A center is placed with audiovideo on the table, right?
So that Farden getsvideo from directly.
(23:04):
On the table if people aretalking across the table instead
of towards the video system.
So things like thatreally enhances the
experience for far end.
And I think the more we canprovide all that type of a
human connection, the moreI think people naturally
just trust each other.
If we have a meeting now,when someone doesn't have
video on, you feel likeyou're in the blind, right?
Hannah Clark (23:28):
Yeah, and it's so funny how this is even a
user habit that's changed overtime, where I think initially
when video conferencingwas starting to become more
popular and remote work wasbecoming more commonplace,
people were a little reluctantto have the video on.
It seems a little bit invasive.
And now the user behaviorsreally evolved in which when
you attend a meeting and peoplehave their video off, it's
(23:49):
like really feels like you're.
Not everyone is actuallythere, or that people
are partially there.
I think there's a lot tobe said about that sort
of intangible element ofeveryone being there together.
That I think is reallyfascinating how you folks
are really trying tocapture that and bring
that into a digital realm.
This is really so fascinatinghow these experiences
(24:10):
that we know intrinsicallylike that experience in
an analog sense and how.
How much has to go intoit, how much thought goes
into translating and takingthat experience into more
of a remote friendly tool.
It's so cool.
Now that we're on the topicof innovation and thinking
about how we translate some ofthese things into solutions,
I feel like innovation,this is something that we've
(24:31):
talked about before on theshow too, how innovation is.
It's more complexthan just a verb.
It's really, there's some, a lotof things that go into creating
the conditions for innovation.
So what's the process at need?
How do you create thoseenvironments where you can
get innovation flowing outof the people in the room?
Norma Løvhaugen (24:50):
Yeah, I think that's super interesting as
well, because you cannot put10 engineers in the room and
say, Hey, let's be innovative.
Because then i's whatare we going to do?
And it sounds like alsothis ground work, right?
That you have to find outsomething really crazy and new.
And I think that sometimesinnovation is also just the
smaller things and pieces thatkind of adds up and really
(25:14):
becomes a good user experience.
And for us.
It's often more about whatproblems and context is
provided, to solve a problem.
And then I thoughtit was interesting.
A designer that I worked withonce said that they've been
at the design workshop orkind of a training, and then
the facilitator said, okay,everyone now design five pots.
(25:38):
Five pots for thekitchen, right?
And then.
Five.
That's really hard tofind five alternatives.
You have a handle, youhave a lid, then you have
what's the difference?
And then they were chewingon that for 15, 20 minutes.
And then he said you're goingto actually do this task one
more time, but this time you'regoing to draw inspiration
from the car industry.
(25:58):
And innovation bubbled, right?
You got all sorts of potsand they all drew like much
more than five each, right?
You had windows, you hadthe speedometer or kind
of temperature meter.
You got a lot moreinnovative pots.
So for us, we look atinnovation more as, okay,
what are the problemsthat we're going to solve?
(26:18):
And then when we knowthat and the problems go.
Then it's often good todiscuss and hear from everyone.
I think often that's a keypart of it as well, getting
everyone to contribute, right?
I think that's also how wecreate that magic, and again,
that's based on trust and thefeeling like, okay, your ideas
(26:40):
or concerns are valuable, right?
And how to get to that teamdynamic where everyone is
sharing and contributingand listening to each
other, and you get that.
Really healthy dynamic.
I think that's a really goodfoundation for innovation.
And then keeping in mindthat, and then we also talk
about innovation is notnecessarily those bigger things.
Sometimes it's the simplethings, the simple changes
(27:02):
that adds up, like the liftingmechanism that we did or
they did something else.
Also, the, our board canbe wheeled around and then
it looks like a designelement because the Floris
stand goes in like this.
But what it actually is that ifyou wheel it over a door, is it
the door step that it's called?
Yeah.
In English, then that'sa handle for you.
(27:23):
You just lift it and thenit makes it easier to
pull it over the doorstep.
So just those minor thingsthat has been thought through.
And I think that's alsopart of how we do, we do
prototypes really early.
The design team and themechanical team works
together and they make firstit's just cardboard, right?
To test out device and testout the different pieces of
(27:44):
it and testing out all the usecases early, because that's
how you see what would theuser need and the customer
need from the product.
And I think that's also partof driving the innovation and.
The simplicity of it.
Hannah Clark (27:59):
Yeah.
I really like the idea ofbeing able to observe, how is
the user likely to use thisor get a sense of how they
might adapt to the prototype.
How do you adapt theprototype to them?
Also, I have to say, theexample that you gave with
the pot story really remindsme of an innovation workshop
that I did early in my careerthat has never left me, and we
did a very similar challenge.
(28:19):
The challenge was todesign implements for
a child's playground.
And none of us had anybackground in design.
None of us had any backgroundin engineering for children's
ed, recreational structures.
So we were lost for ideas.
But then the second promptwas, okay, now take inspiration
from a bowl of fruit.
And then suddenly the ideasjust flew out of people.
(28:42):
And it's so funny, and I,this has really changed my
perspective on constraintsas a tool for creativity and
innovation, is that when you.
Inject these sort of unexpectedelements, that juxtaposition
of unexpected things, eventhough it creates what could
be a challenging constraint,can often really make the
whole process feel like play.
And yeah, the energy thatcomes out of it is just
(29:03):
magical, as you mentioned.
So speaking to listeners here,if you haven't tried this
as an exercise, I think isreally interesting to see what
happens when you're ideating onsomething and then you throw in
something completely out of leftfield just to see what happens.
Really inspiring.
I wanna talk about productpredictability and consistency.
So when we talk about, youmentioned prototyping early
(29:25):
and keeping all of theseideas collaborative in terms
of the development process.
But a big part of that too,that I can imagine is really
challenging is when you'vegot a lot of products that are
being developed concurrently.
How do you keep thatconsistency so that everything
feels like a Neat product?
Norma Løvhaug (29:41):
Yeah, good point.
It ties very closely back tothe kind of the core principles
that we have on simplicity, easyset, focusing in what's the core
job of the product, what's Neatand our flavor on the products.
When we focus in on that,I think that's helps us
do that predictability.
(30:02):
But then we also makesure that kind of the
overall design languageis also consistent, right?
The design team is continuouslyworking on that, and sometimes
I'm really fascinated byhow thorough they can be.
Right?
Once one of the designersindustrial designers came
off, the manzi had threepieces of gray fabric
(30:22):
on like aboard plate.
And he said, what do youthink of the difference
of these gray fabrics?
And I was like, to me,they're exactly the same.
I'm not able to see anything.
And he said there is adifference, but we're trying to
figure out if it's an acceptabledifference from our suppliers.
So that if they buy threeproducts from us, that
(30:43):
it has the same shadeof gray on the fabric.
It was really fascinating.
And then he explainedthe difference.
One was a little bitmore yellow, one had
maybe a bit more texture.
To me, they looked all the same,but if I really paid attention,
maybe I could see some, butthat's how thorough they are.
On the different parts of theprocess or just like the edge,
(31:05):
like the corners of the system.
Right.
If it's not exactly right, thenthe fabric doesn't bend over
like the in the right way, theydo it over and prototype again.
So it's, I think that's fromthe outer side of the product.
But then when it comesto software, we have the
same software runningacross all our products,
and I think that's also.
Helps us be very predictable.
(31:27):
Of course, there's, dependingon hardware capabilities,
there's variations, but thesame kind of way of using
the products across, and Ithink that's really some of
the essence of creating thatpredictability, that when our
customers then buy somethingfrom Neat, they know that it's,
oh, it's super simple to set up.
It's really solidand good design.
(31:49):
It's great quality, neverbreaks, but it also ties into
a few other things, right?
I talk a lot about products,but we, I think it's also
something about us being neatin our way of talking and being
with our customers as well.
We are approachable, weare available, and I.
Accessible to our customers,and we love to hear from them
(32:09):
and we're not hiding from them.
So there's a lot of partsthat need flavor that goes
beyond our products as well.
Hannah Clark (32:16):
Speaking of the gray fabrics, I'm thinking
about this and I can seehow in, in a decision making
capacity, looking at threethings on a plate, it can
seem like a very immaterial.
Decision, but theseare really the things
that customers notice.
I can think about times whenI've picked up a product and
noticed an inconsistency in theshade of something or how it
(32:38):
feels like these are these firstimpressions that actually make
an impression on people that maybe looking at things presented
side by side on a plate, mayseem like they're negligible,
but to the user that reallywe're really paying attention.
And I think that the samething is true with as you
mentioned, predictability withthe experience of software.
As a user, I think that there'snothing more jarring than
(33:01):
finding an update that hasdisrupted your workflow or
that things that used to beintuitive because you felt like
you got to know the producthave become unintuitive It.
When you find a learningcurve again and something
that feels it's veryjarring, I can appreciate
the respect for the user.
In ensuring that thepredictability is there and
that things are exciting bybeing couched in the familiar.
(33:23):
But as a user, I approve.
Norma Løvhaugen (33:28):
That's good.
And also, by the way,there's one more thing that
reminds me of that I alsothink is important is that.
The one that has thediscipline makes the
decision in a way, right?
So for instance, when it cameto those gray, three gray,
it's up to that designerto make the decision.
But what I think ishealthy is that he walks
around and collect.
(33:48):
Input, right?
He asks a lot of peopleand based on kind of the,
some of the feedback thathe gets, he makes the call.
And I think that's importantalso because when people are
responsible for the decisionmade in their field, like
the audio team is responsiblefor the audio, right?
They make the decisionsin terms of should we
have this microphone areaor this speaker, and how
(34:10):
should the algorithms be?
I think that also createsboth pride, but also
makes them want to havethis as good as possible.
They put their competenceand passion into it.
Hannah Clark (34:22):
Yeah.
It comes back tohaving that passion.
Yeah.
I've seen a lot of coveragelately on the new partnership
with Sam Altman and Jony Ive,and it sounds like really
what's being highlightedthere is that Jony Ive working
together with Sam Altman hasmore to do with the obsession
factor that Jony brings to aprocess than anything else.
And that they that reallyspeaks to the value of
(34:44):
passion within the process.
On a very big scale.
Yes.
To wrap up since we've covereda lot of territory here, if
we were to leave our listenerswith just one thing, the
biggest lesson that you'velearned in terms of facilitating
collaboration between designand engineering, what would you
say is the most important thingyou've learned in the process
of working with these teams?
Norma Løvhaugen (35:04):
I think it's the ownership piece, right?
People, when we do somethingthat me or anyone else shouldn't
come into the team, I. And say,this is what we are going to do.
This is the product thatwe're going to make.
Then you get no ownershipand it probably won't be
a good product either.
But going in there and sayingsomething like, our customers
(35:27):
have a problem with thesetype of spaces, for instance,
or these type of solutions,they need something neat.
And then you get theoverarching the team and it
needs to be the team that isgoing to make the product.
Then they start discussing,okay, how can we then,
in the best possible way,provide a need product that
solve for that problem?
And that's how I think themagic happens between the
(35:50):
disciplines and how we define.
That product together.
And when everyone's been partof that process, everyone
knows what to do to deliverthe product in a way also and
makes decisions themself asthey go, and they're fully
empowered to do I thinkthat's maybe number one.
And then also the overallcan do attitude, right?
That people believe thatthings are possible.
(36:11):
Yeah, of course we can do that.
And then the teammagically works together
to make it happen.
Hannah Clark (36:17):
Yeah, it's all about having the
right people in the room.
Thank you for this wonderfulconversation, Norma.
I I can really tell that yourpassion is shining through for
this kind of work, so this isalways the best kind of thing
to participate in and talkabout things that energize us.
Where can folks followyour work online?
Norma Løvhaugen (36:32):
So you can follow us on Neat.no,
that's where we have allour products and experiences
to learn more about that.
And also on LinkedIn, you canfollow Neat meetings there.
And I'm also on LinkedIn.
I'm so lucky that my,my LinkedIn handle is
just linkedin.com/norma.
Don't know how thathappens, I think I just
(36:53):
got lucky Sometimes.
Hannah Clark (36:55):
Sometimes the most elegant solution
is the simplest one.
Thank you so much forjoining us, Norma.
Norma Løvhau (37:00):
Thank you so much.
Hannah Clark (37:04):
Thanks for listening in.
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