ADHD might be the product trait nobody’s putting on their resume—but maybe they should. In this episode, Hannah sits down with executive coach Frankie Berkoben to unpack the complex intersection of ADHD, executive function, and product leadership. Together, they explore how ADHD traits like systems thinking, emotional intelligence, and comfort with ambiguity make product people exceptional—and why those same strengths often lead to burnout, inconsistency, or shame in traditional work environments.
This conversation doesn’t offer productivity hacks or time-boxed silver bullets. Instead, it’s a candid, deeply validating discussion about how to build careers, teams, and work cultures that actually work for neurodivergent brains. Whether you have a diagnosis, suspect you might, or simply want to lead with more nuance and empathy, this one’s worth a listen.
Resources from this episode:
- Subscribe to The Product Manager newsletter
- Connect with Frankie on LinkedIn
- Check out Frankie’s website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hannah Clark (00:01):
I am not sure if this will surprise you,
but ADHD is overrepresentedamong product people,
and particularly leaders.
And the more we learn aboutthe common traits of ADHD,
the more it makes sense.
ADHD is correlated withstrategic, big picture thinking,
exceptional problem solvingskills, charisma, and high
levels of comfort in complexand ambiguous situations.
(00:22):
Sounds like someoneyou know, right?
But while all these traitstend to steer people with ADHD
into product management andleadership roles, these amazing
gifts come at a cost thatcan erode our productivity,
confidence, and wellbeing.
My guest today is FrankieBerkoben, an Executive
Coach for Overwhelmed andOften ADHD Leaders in Tech.
And I'll be honest, thisinterview has been one of
(00:42):
the most personally impactfulconversations I've had in
a very long time as someonewho lives with ADHD myself.
And if you've listened this farinto the episode, it's probably
safe to assume that you do too.
So if that's you, this episodeis going to make you feel
so seen and validated whileoffering practical tactics
for working better withADHD—including the other ADHD
(01:04):
brains on your product team.
Let's jump in.
Oh, by the way, wehold conversations
like this every week.
So, if this sounds interestingto you, why not subscribe?
Okay, now let's jump in.
Welcome back to theProduct Manager podcast.
I am so excited to be heretoday with Frankie Berkoben.
Frankie, thank you so much forjoining on me, joining me today.
Frankie Berkoben (01:25):
Oh my gosh, Hannah, I'm
so excited to be here.
Hannah Clark (01:27):
Me too.
Almost too excited.
Can you tell us first aboutyour background and how you've
arrived in your current role?
Frankie Berkoben (01:33):
Gladly.
As you mentioned, I'm anexecutive coach for leaders
in tech, so often extremelybrilliant, often ADHD or
some form of neurodivergent,and navigating this
tension between massivepotential high capability.
And inconsistent performance.
And I come from a backgroundin engineering consulting and
(01:54):
I was a classic overachieveracademically, and I was fine
on the outside, but constantlyquestioning why it felt so
difficult to stay consistentor motivated, like the gold
standard is co consistency.
And now I coach other peoplethrough the shift that I made
myself, which is going fromtrying to fix my brain and
(02:15):
seeing me as the problem.
To recognizing a, likea wider perspective that
maybe there's a mismatchin needs and capabilities.
And so designing a life thatworks with my brain rather than
trying to be someone and operatedifferently than I do, that's
what I help other people with.
So going from shame,overcompensation, and
(02:37):
coping mechanisms thatwork in the short term,
but not in the long term.
To being able to trust mydecisions, my, the way I
operate, my strengths and myclients include directors,
VPs, and C-suites and startups.
Many of my clients were atGoogle Meta, Airbnb, and
(02:57):
even the Biden White House.
And what I've noticed.
And this is leading to partof our conversation really, is
that the gifted ADHD traits, thekind of twice exceptional high
capability, but also sometimeslow execution is the same.
Oh, sorry.
There were these really strongoverlaps between situational
performance challenges instressful leadership positions
(03:21):
and permanent challengeswith executive functioning.
So that's something thatI've been really having more
conversations about thispast year and I've expanded
my coaching practice.
I don't just serveneurodivergent leaders because
what impacts all of us, someof the time IE when we're
stressed, et cetera, impactssome people IE people with
(03:44):
ADHD or executive functioningchallenges all of the time.
So it's the conceptof universal design.
If I give you plentyto work with there.
Hannah Clark (03:54):
Absolutely.
And yeah I'm already feelinglike I might end up getting
a little emotional duringthis conversation because
this is a topic that is sonear to my heart, even nearer
to my brain as somebodywho was diagnosed with ADHD
when I was 20 years old.
And it completely changedthe trajectory of my life,
my career for the better.
But it's also an ongoing,I think for most folks
who are neurodivergentor who have ADHD or some
(04:16):
other kind of difference.
That there is an ongoing journeyto manage what that looks
like for you in your career.
And yeah it's just like aconstant thing that, that's
interesting to learn about, bothfrom the perspective of someone
who might be neurodivergent,whether or not they know it.
And for those of us who areworking with neuro divergent
people and trying to understandbetter what their patterns
are and the reasons whythat inconsistency might be
(04:39):
manifesting in performance.
So anyway, to kick us off,let's talk a little bit
about some specific examples.
What are some traits that yousee that are connect the dots
between, these, what we seeas strengths of having ADHD or
that we kinda associate withproduct leadership, as well as
the sort of yin and yang, likethe challenges that kind of
come along with those things?
Frankie Berkoben (05:00):
Yeah.
Let's focus more on thestrengths to start off with
and then the challengeswill inevitably pop up
because we have a negativitybias, as problem solvers.
Really?
So what I see in terms of likereally exceptional product
thinkers and leaders is thatthey're interdisciplinary
systems thinkers.
They are capable of puttingthemselves in other people's
(05:22):
shoes and behind theirglasses, to see from multiple
different lenses and to bezoomed out in a way that
you can see the big picture.
You can see how thingsare interconnected.
And there's like a realrichness and nuance and
ability to hold that complexitytoo, of seeing everything
everywhere all at once.
But being able to also seethe patterns in it and seeing
(05:46):
so that's one thing is theinterdisciplinary systems
thinking rather than onenarrow silo or niche or one
single perspective, callthat stakeholder empathy,
call it system thinkinglike there's a lot there.
There's also the reallyhigh emotional intelligence.
Commonality is not necessarilyprescriptive and it is tied
(06:09):
to empathy, but it's alsoaround communication and
understanding and like havinga spidey sense for what's going
on for other people or howa user might be experiencing
something that you know, so thatgetting into people's stories.
(06:29):
Without getting floodedby them is part of that.
And I mentioned, comfortablewith complexity, like seeing
the big picture, but beingcomfortable also getting
into details when necessary.
So often extremely strategicbut able to mess around
in the details too.
Also, there's this reallycompelling presence, the,
(06:53):
you might call it charisma.
Or, influence without authorityor any of those sort of buzz
phrases is, when you believein something, when you see
connections other people don't.
When you care about the peopleinvolved with that, high
empathy and intelligence, theemotional intelligence, it
means that you are able topaint a picture and tell stories
(07:14):
that bring people on board.
So it's that emotionalin depth intelligence.
People respond withemotion rather than
they respond to facts.
So that often comes in.
Hannah Clark (07:25):
Yeah, that all resonates deeply.
I don't wanna say that'san exact profile of me, but
I definitely identify withmany of the themes there.
And I see that also in some ofyeah I feel like specifically
ADHD, I can't speak to all NightNeurodivergence, but it's a not
so secret society in which a lotof us recognize some of these
traits and others intuitively.
Yeah they can be suchan immense strength.
(07:47):
I think a lot of us build ourcareers based on some of those
really amazing strengths,and yet there's also these
challenges that come along withit with executive function.
So let's talk a little bitabout executive functioning.
First of all, I've heardyou describe it as the
brain's C-suite, whichI think very cute.
How would you describe, whatis executive functioning
and what are some of thoseinvisible differences that
impact how neurodivergentand neurotypical people often
(08:10):
operate in the workplace?
Frankie Berkoben (08:11):
Yeah, executive functioning.
There are plenty of differentdefinitions for it, and it's not
always clear, but an operationaldefinition is it's the set of
cognitive processes in yourprefrontal cortex that help us
execute executive functioning.
Translating intent into action.
And it's the ability to zoomout, figure out what your
(08:35):
needs might be to ideateand problem solve, like
how to get those needs met.
It includes prioritizingplanning, task initiation
time and energy management,or regulating your focus
and attention and theawareness of enables us
to course correct too.
(08:55):
And executivefunctions are often.
Talked about in either earlychildhood contexts or deficit
based contexts such as remedialacademic coaching or disability
accommodations, and really onlywhen something is going wrong.
But, and this is what I carereally strongly about, is
(09:16):
to bring this concept and anunderstanding and awareness
of what executive functionsare and how they vary because
they are context dependent.
And knowing how theyvary for all humans.
When we're tired, whenwe're stressed, when
we're, when we're sick.
Like all these things areimpaired situationally
or temporarily.
(09:37):
And knowing how theneurodivergent population has
managed to mitigate some ofthese things in a more permanent
or temporary way can really helpall of us up level in terms of
performance and in many ways.
You can think about your,the executive functions as
your brain's PM too, likeyour, like triaging requests
(10:02):
and allocating resourcesand managing stakeholders.
Sometimes internal, like wehave competing priorities
too and, adjusting our courseand strategy and regarding,
the second part of thatquestion about invisible
differences that impact.
How neurodivergent and neuronnormative people operate.
(10:22):
That's a really hard questionto answer 'cause it presumes
that there are differences.
What impacts some peopleall of the time impacts
all of us some of the time.
And what makes ADHD andexecutive functioning
challenges so relatable isbecause we all experience them
to some degree or another.
And it is no secret that we'reliving in an increasingly
(10:45):
stressful, volatile, ambiguous,complex world, and we're close
to our threshold of what wecan manage at any given time,
whether it's the sheer amountof data and information that
we're trying to cram intoour heads, or the speed at
which we're expected to switchtasks and things like that.
So I think that the invisibledifferences are really just
(11:11):
about intensity and persistenceof some of these things.
If analysis paralysis issomething that only impacts
you on a Friday afternoonor the after the end of the
long week rather than everysingle day from the moment
you get up to the moment yougo to bed, then your tactics
(11:32):
are gonna be different.
Your awareness and suggestionsand expectations of what will
or won't work, and thereforethe value judgments that you
place on all the people whoaren't able to overcome more
pervasive analysis paralysisare slightly different.
So it's more to do withhow often and how much does
(11:55):
this impact rather thandoes this impact you at all?
Hannah Clark (11:59):
I'm already really appreciating the nuance of these
responses because when I thinkabout myself as an interviewer,
especially, sorry, this is likea little meta moment, but when
I think about, sitting down towrite interview questions for
something, I often will think ofa question and I feel like the
question's often pointing to avery specific or direct answer.
(12:20):
And what I really appreciateabout this, that I really
recognize as a trait inADHD folks is that there's.
It's always an, it depends.
There's always such avast gray area to explore.
So I appreciate, and I thinkthis might be a theme throughout
as I'm asking you thingsthat there is so much a gray
area that I think is an un.
(12:40):
Maybe an under-discussedstrength of ADHD is to be able
to really interpret and kindaexpand a situation and think,
oh, it's not really black orwhite, or, there's not really
one specific answer or one wayto describe this situation.
It's very contextual.
It's, and.
All these different factorsmake us very good leaders in
that we're able to identify thestrengths of the people and the
resources around us and make ajudgment call based on all of
(13:04):
these things in combination,rather than this is uniformly
a good or bad thing based on,prior data that's not really
relevant to this situation.
So anyway, this is an asidebecause I'm recognizing and I
really appreciate being ableto dive into these questions
in a more nuanced fashion.
But anyway, moving along,'cause I could, I feel
like all of these questionscould be their own podcast.
Speaking of resource allocationissues, when we think about
(13:26):
executive functioning challengesand trying to reframe some of
those challenges as away fromthis idea of it being a personal
failing 'cause I think that, Ithink one of the things that we
often will struggle with, whichkind of comes at the crux of
this conversation, is trying tostep away from taking some of
those challenges personally andfinding ways to be constructive
(13:46):
about addressing them.
So when you think about how youapproach dealing with clients
and reframing that mindset,how do you kind of position
that change in mindset aroundtaking away that, feeling of
how you function is your fault,and thinking about it more in
terms of, how do you frame itin a way that's constructive
(14:08):
and that helps us to seek andbalance our, what our needs
are and how to address them.
Frankie B (14:13):
There are two things.
So first we start with.
A lot of high performersand a lot of leaders who are
extremely capable but haveinconsistent follow through
for whatever reason, arevery hard on themselves.
So busting down the walls ofself-judgment that are often
seen as necessary to push andto achieve, and to provide
(14:37):
the business case and theROI for self-compassion and
not being a jerk to yourself.
And what's possible when youwork with, rather than trying
to force yourself to be someoneor something that you are not.
So there's the self-compassionpiece, first of all, and
the analogy that reallyresonates with a lot of people
(14:58):
is there's this sense ofbeing a square peg, trying
to fit into a round hole.
I think of it actually more asa star shaped peg where we have.
Amazing.
Like we're a lot in many areas.
If if you do a, an assessment,you'll have a spiky strengths
profile, either all or nothingin different areas, often known
(15:21):
as a spiky strengths profile.
So you're a star shapedpeg, tried to fit into
a round hole, and someplaces you are too much.
Your most brilliant attributesmay be seen as threatening.
Or as too much or not necessary.
You're like, you're deliveringa Ferrari when what we need is a
some form of Toyota, or there'sother areas where you are not
(15:45):
meeting the bare minimum, andthat might be around follow
through and administrativetasks or some of the things
that are reliant on memory anddoggedness and willpower and
just like getting through them.
And so how do you fit a squareshaped peg into a round hole?
What are the options?
(16:06):
You sand down pieces of apeg or you stretch pieces
of it to fit, or maybeyou nudge the environment.
Maybe we adjust the environment.
So there's, it's in order tosparkle and to shine, and for
your strengths to be not onlytolerated, but acknowledged and
celebrated that it's not justabout changing the peg, but
it's about changing the whole.
(16:27):
So it's not just the individual.
Also the environment andconversations need to happen
about whether that is somethingthat either party can do, and it
doesn't have to be just about,say, disability accommodations,
because what we've noticed inthe concept of universal design
is that if you design for theedge cases and remove friction
(16:50):
points for edge cases, oftenthat will improve outcomes and
experiences for people in themiddle of the bell curve too.
So having a more flexibleworking environment, which
accommodates executivefunctioning challenges and
variability and smooths removesthe friction, helps everybody.
(17:11):
So I would say the scarsshaped peg round hole also
helps you see, oh, I'm, maybeI wasn't meant to be here, or
in order to be here, these aremy needs that need to be met.
And to be here, I need to cutoff the thing that makes me if
I need to file away or hide oreven masking, hiding or code
(17:35):
switching in order to fit in.
That is a huge emotional loadto bear day in and day out,
as well as cognitive load.
So then positions it as a fitissue rather than a deficiency.
Hannah Clark (17:52):
This is an interesting question
too, because I feellike, as you mentioned,
we're in an increasinglyvolatile environment.
Whether that's, when we thinkabout the business landscape
or the political landscape,or just the global landscape,
there are so many differentthings that we're just
simultaneously trying to computeand manage at the same time.
Along with that, ourenvironments are also
shifting around us.
(18:13):
So I can see there beingmany instances in which an
environment that felt likea really snug fit at one
point has now itself changedat the times, and there can
be this disconnect between.
What we're able to bring to thetable or feeling overloaded by
the speed of change or by thedemands that change management
might have on a person.
(18:34):
And then the, the trying toreconcile that with how the
environment has changed andwhether or not those supports
still exist for you or whetherthat fit still is there.
I feel that there's a lot ofdissonance happening around
us in which we're reallyfeeling that additional
pressure of, I want to rise tothe occasion because that's.
How I identify myself, howI feel about myself, and
(18:56):
yet it's increasingly moredifficult to interpret
like, how do I do that?
And is that somethingthat's within my grasp?
So yeah, this is, I thinkthis is another kind of
one of those gray areasituations to interpret that.
It's it's not just that we'renot alone, and it's not just
that we may not be a fit forthe environment, but that
all of our environments areinherently changing and that
(19:17):
this is a time, I think that'sespecially challenging not just
for people who have ADHD butfor all of us who are trying
to reconcile like our existinghabits and our skill sets
with this world that we're in.
So this is, this isan interesting kind of
tangent to to get into.
Frankie Berkoben (19:31):
Yeah.
So we're evolving as well.
Our awareness evolves andsomething that I do see a lot
is that for people who arerecently diagnosed with ADHD.
The awareness of what thisactually means and the
awareness of what they nolonger have to tolerate in
terms of, oh, I don't haveto do it a certain way.
(19:53):
There is a way that worksfor me that I can do.
And so there's a strongoverlap at one point in time
between your needs and theenvir, what the environment
can give, but it may shift.
So there's no longer anoverlap in the Venn diagram
as either your awareness ofwhat your needs actually are.
They may have been the sameall along, but maybe your needs
(20:15):
have changed, your awarenesshas changed, or your needs
themselves have changed.
You're in a different position.
Lots of people like are goingthrough additional caregiving
responsibilities with eldercare and also childcare,
especially towards likesenior leadership positions.
So there's also a change in yourenvironments, which means, yeah,
(20:36):
a difference in your needs.
Even if the organizationhas remained the same.
So you're right, like theshades of gray or even
between black and white,there are many colors.
It doesn't have to be gray.
Hannah Clark (20:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I suppose that's true.
But yeah I think very validatingto hear that said out loud that.
There are many ways that ourenvironments can change and
that, our feeling overwhelmedas we attempt to meet them isn't
necessarily a personal feeling.
It's a, as a part of theevolution that I think all
of us are trying to endure.
At the same time, I dowanna shift gears a little
(21:10):
bit towards a topic that Ithink is really fascinating,
which is systems thinking.
We just had a great conversationwith Cheryl Kaba, who's the
author of closing the LoopSystems, thinking for Designers.
It really reminded me of aconversation that I'd had
with you prior about systemsthinking being something that
tends to be, not necessarily aninherent trait of ADHD people,
but it seems to be a lot morepresent among those who have an
(21:30):
ADHD kind of way of thinking.
And I really believe in thatas it being a real strength.
And also something that kindof, to your point earlier
about it being a little bitdifferent from some of the more
linear ways of thinking, can.
Really effectively leverageand to really be able to
(21:50):
bring people into the storythat you are able to tell
effectively, inconsistently.
So how would you describethat thought process?
Let's assume that we've gota listener who is very linear
in their way of thinking.
How would you describe thatkind of more nuanced systems
thinking or I think you hadsome other words for it.
And are there any ways thatyou've seen this work in
(22:12):
action of how people havebeen able to leverage this,
or maybe clients have beenable to leverage this way of
thinking in their organizations?
Frankie Berkoben (22:18):
It's the big picture, seeing the big picture,
the perspective, it's multipledimensions, multiple factors,
multiple axes simultaneously.
It's not just a two by two.
And it's seeinginterdependencies, being able
to think from first principles.
Seeing nodes in a system andthen how they're connected
(22:40):
and being able to interpolate,not just extrapolate,
but in multiple differentlayers and complexities.
You can see emergentpatterns rather than
what's in front of you.
So it often looks like seeingrisks or consequences, or
even possibilities that aretwo or three orders separated
(23:03):
from what is right in front.
Especially when it comes tolong-term strategic thinking.
This is a real assetwhen it comes to, in the
moment, get stuff done.
That can providea lot of friction.
There are two other aspects.
One is the why and theintuitive piece, so I'll
go with the why first.
Understanding the why.
(23:23):
Is essential for many of theclients that I work with who
identify as systems thinkers.
It's understanding well withinall of this, what exactly are
we trying to do, because itcan be very overwhelming to
see everything ever all at onceand how it's interconnected
on different timescales anddifferent dimensions, and that
propensity towards diversityof thought and and perspective
(23:47):
can also leave you spinning.
So having a clear why thatis, is essential there.
And so advocating for that orhaving that provided is a way
to work with the differencesand people, how people think.
There's also the intuition.
This is to do with differentprocessing modalities, how
we take in and internalize,and then communicate and
(24:11):
socialize information thatwhen we're communicating with
others, often it's verbal.
Communicating verbally is a formof linear communication because
there's a beginning and amiddle and an end of a sentence.
Ideally, if what you're seeingis multidimensional or how
you're understanding it is maybedoesn't lend itself to one.
(24:32):
Linear sentenceor communicating,
conveying in words.
There are different typesof communication that have
to happen, but also it'sa felt sense or it's a
visual and different peopleexperience it differently.
It may be like a spatialthing, and so the challenge,
the friction point isoften trying to translate.
(24:53):
This nonverbal understandinginto words so that other
people can come along withyou so that other people
see what you're seeing.
Other people feelwhat you're feeling.
Other people understandwhat you understand.
So there's a translation elementthere, which takes time too.
So effective ways forsystems thinkers to leverage
(25:16):
this power of thinking.
Only about 25% of the world'spopulation are probably systems
thinkers or network thinkersor global thinkers in terms of
seeing the interconnectednessof things is conveying, like
narrating their thinking,saying, here's what I'm seeing.
(25:36):
Here's the downstream risk,here's the trade off I'm
seeing among other things.
And so using visual metaphors.
For visual artifacts,systems, maps, and diagrams.
As I said, we have visualmetaphors also really help
storytelling too, if there'san analogy, is very helpful
(25:58):
'cause it helps open upwhat can be tunnel vision
for linear thinkers who aregetting things done and then
they're not distracted, they'renot seeing what's beyond
the scope of their focus.
Is helping putthat into context.
So ideally there is a yin andyang between operators and doers
and strategists and thinkers,and there are different time
(26:21):
skills on which people work.
And so the people that havebeen most effective, the clients
that I've worked with thathave been most effective at
communicating this, have learnedto ask to slow things down
so that they get to the why.
Rather than jumping straightinto the solution, I need
the big picture before Ican jump into the details.
(26:43):
They leverage other forms ofcommunication and mapping, so
visual mapping and metaphorsand then also the communicating
and narrating their thinkingto provide context for what
comes to them intuitively.
Hannah Clark (26:58):
One thing that jumps to mind when you
mentioned, these nodes ofthinking is this, I think
almost stereotypical notion ofan ADHD person trying to tell
you a story about somethingthat happened in their day.
Invariably, it starts theway that any story starts and
then it begins to bounce intothese micro tangents that to
the person telling the storyadds rich context to help you
(27:21):
understand exactly, why is thisperson in the story relevant?
Why is this thing thathappened three weeks ago
relevant to the story thatI'm telling from today?
And there's all of these littlethings that pop up in the
conversation that are very mucha part of the system that the
person is trying to communicateto you, which is really, but.
Sometimes to a listener, itcan be so overwhelming to
try and digest and downloadall of these micro tangents.
(27:44):
That seemed to be completelyirrelevant to what the
person's trying to communicate.
And so I think therein isthat frustration of trying to
communicate all of this richcontext and information and how
these things are interlinkedwithout overwhelming the
listener and overwhelmingthe person who you're trying
to communicate all of it to.
And so I, I can reallyappreciate this idea of using
(28:05):
metaphors is something thatI've really glommed onto.
I think a lot of folkshave called me up for
being a little bit overthe top with my metaphors.
Also using these kind ofvisual aids to be able to
help people follow yourtrain of thought without
either of you getting lost.
So yeah, I really endorse, maybeoverly endorse those tools.
But yes I think that theseare some of the really
(28:25):
effective ways that peoplecan leverage these strengths
and use organizations.
One, one of the things Ithink I'm interested in
exploring is how do we manage.
The desire to communicate.
As you mentioned, beingable to see things maybe
a few steps down the line.
(28:46):
When we are at a level ofinfluence that isn't, we're
sometimes communicatingall this information
can almost undermine us.
I'm having a hard timearticulating this, but I've
recognized situations throughoutmy career, especially when
I was more junior, when Iwould feel like I was seeing
the logical conclusionof a specific initiative.
(29:07):
That was a misaligned with theobjective of the organization
and trying to understand,or trying to communicate
that to, the leadershipthat I was, reporting to.
And I really felt likethere was this judgment of
that I was a little loonymaybe, or that I was making
a mountain out of a molehillor, I just didn't really feel
(29:28):
like I had the gravitas or.
Something wasn't really clickingwith how I was communicating
these things, and invariablyI was settling into this okay,
we'll just do it your way.
And at that point, this iswhat I wanted to talk about was
the why began to detach itselffrom the mission where the
why that I needed in order tobe motivated to feel invested
(29:50):
and engaged in the work.
Because I didn't feel likethe why that I had in mind was
the same why that the or theleadership maybe had in mind.
It was really difficult toconjure that same buy-in.
So there's these likedisconnects that take place
where if you feel you can'treally communicate effectively
and get on the same page, itcan undermine that sense of
(30:11):
why, anyway, this isn't reallya question I'm realizing, but
how do you mitigate some ofthose communication problems?
Frankie Berkoben (30:16):
Yeah, and there are two things that I'm
hearing in what you were saying.
One is.
Seeing the consequences thatnobody else sees and being
a whistleblower and beinglabeled a problem maker,
troublemaker, or the naysayer.
And what's often reallyinfuriating is a couple of
(30:37):
years down the line, peoplewill be like, that thing that
you said, it came to pass.
And you're like great.
But in the moment it'san unpopular opinion.
It's an uncomfortable truth.
People aren't seeing itthe way you are seeing it.
And so the communicationchallenges are, especially
(30:57):
if it happens in the moment,is trying to give yourself
space to translate into theirspeak, translate into what
they care about and the riskthat you see, which you feel
as a danger, as a real threat.
And you wanna have it out there,you want it to be said is.
(31:19):
So there's part of regulatingyour own nervous system so
that you give yourself a beat,maybe a minute or so to sketch
out what it is you want tosay and how you want to say
it so that then you can sayit and articulate it in a way.
And also developing the courageof not saying everything to
not over provide context,to not prove your worth.
(31:43):
So that kind of risklesslyprioritizing what you are,
what you're communicating.
It's a skill for some of us,it takes more work than others.
And then the harder piecethat I heard in there too
was how heartbreaking it canbe when you find out that
your why, that you understoodthe team or the organization
(32:04):
to be working towards isnot the same according
to other people's view.
And that sense, losing a senseof belonging, losing a sense
of purpose, and feeling like.
You're all workingtogether towards the same
purpose can be extremelydemoralizing, especially
when we have interest-basedmotivation systems.
(32:27):
So this is where the roleof dopamine and deficient
dopamine reuptake, or I'm nota neuroscientist, but where
lower effectiveness of dopamineis neurotransmitter shows up.
So people with lowerdopamine effectiveness.
Are more keyed into interest.
The why has to resonatewith them individually
(32:50):
with their values.
And the why can also meanbelonging, but not at
the expense of integrity.
For many people who are moreneuron normative or more subtle
or grounded or privilege orhowever it is, but it can just
be important space, motivation.
It has to get done andit's important, therefore
(33:11):
it shall get done, andthat's enough for me.
It's critical to have theshared buy-in and to feel like
it is shared and that the whyresonates for you at this point
in time with your awareness ofyour value schema and needs.
I just wanted to reflect thatback because even though there
wasn't a question in there,there were two really important
(33:32):
points around how we workwith information and why it's
so critical to have interestbe and why be part of that.
Hannah Clark (33:42):
I'm seeing that as maybe being maybe a missing
piece for a lot of folks whofind themselves really stuck in
the gridlock of, how is it thatI just can't seem to motivate
myself to do the things thatI know I'm beholden to do?
And when I reflect back atmy career and the past roles
(34:02):
that I've held, I think that'soften where things have gone
amiss, is when I felt like.
I no longer felt secure inthe sense of what are we
trying to accomplish here?
What's the mission?
What's the goal?
Where am I headed?
Where's my team headed?
And what's the rallying crythat we can all get behind?
That can drive ustowards that together.
(34:22):
So if we can prescribeanything, that might be one
possible diagnostic toolis to evaluate, if you're
struggling with that, maybethere is a disconnect between
where is that goal or do youfeel that it's very clear what
everybody is trying to achieveand is the path to get there
clear to everybody as well.
Yeah, this is interesting.
I'm finding some therapeutic,so you mentioned also
(34:45):
being comfortable withcomplexity and I really.
Really like that term too.
I think this is a verycrucial product skill.
It's a crucial life skill,and it's also huge strength
in asset that we bring toteams that we're part of.
How would you say we can bebetter leveraging that kind of
comfort with complexity in aleadership role specifically?
(35:08):
I think this is somethingthat maybe we don't leverage
thoughtfully enough.
Frankie Berkoben (35:13):
There are several different
aspects of this.
One is.
We crave certainty and weshy away from ambiguity.
Like it is one of the thingsthat leads people into
black and white thinking andsnap judgements and group
think too is not hangingout in the not knowing.
(35:33):
So a key piece is to build innorms or space somehow in your
processes and in meetings.
For ambiguity to be helddoes both and many truths
are possible at once.
So it can sound kind ofphilosophical, but it's also
(35:54):
an essential part of whatopens up creative thinking and
brainstorming and challengingour assumptions because
everybody's coming in withdifferent assumptions about
how things should be or howthings are based on their
own perspectives and lenses.
Having rituals or norms orprocedures that openly hold
(36:18):
ambiguity and let peopleswim around in and add to
the pool of shared knowledge.
When you have someone who holdscomplexity easily, that poise
can really steady the teamfrom an emotional standpoint.
It co regulates.
Our nervous systems go downfrom red Alert to, okay, yeah.
(36:38):
Collectively we've got this.
So it's the team effort too.
And part of that is, yeah,you do a landscape analysis,
like you have time for that.
You give individuals, butalso, a collective adequate
time to map the train, likesurface hidden considerations
and actually take time toreally frame the actual
(36:58):
problem rather than what youthink the problem should be.
That's a real asset here.
And then encouraging,thinking out loud,
specifically narrating,here are the trade-offs.
Here's what I'm thinking.
I, if I look at this, thenhere's, and again, it's about
threads in a common tapestryrather than jumping to one
particular definition of whatthe problem is and isn't of
(37:21):
what the solution is and isn't.
And then anotherpart of this is.
There are people whoare extremely good at
strategic thinking andcomplexity and big picture.
They may not be good orskilled at some of the
operations and do it workand the execution itself.
So having, the whole goodidea now you're in charge,
(37:45):
doesn't always work.
So making sure that thereare complimentary strengths
because together are stronger.
Hannah Clark (37:52):
This is reminding me a lot of a
conversation I'd had a longtime ago with Victoria Coup.
We talked about it in thecontext of the product war
room in the types that sheidentified are similar to what
you're describing here, whereshe mentioned some people
she describes as the Pentagonand others, as the SWAT team
and the Pentagon are the verystrategic thinkers that really
thrive on this idea of beingable to solve a complex problem
(38:13):
and that kind of that whitespace in between where we
are and where we need to be.
And that is the areawhere they thrive.
And then the SWAT team or theexecutors are really skilled.
At just bringing the energyand dedication and focus
needed to really executeon that plan and that you
need a combination of both.
And I think what I'm hearinghere is that it's important
(38:33):
to be cognizant of wherepeople on teams that you're
overseeing or that you'repart of, strengths are.
And, who can you maybe counton to do some of those more
really execution focused tasks?
And who can you count on to bea little bit more strategic and
understanding how to, how doesthe problem solving piece need
to be brought into the fold.
(38:54):
And, have, or even understandingand recognizing how your plan
to solve that problem needsto work or, how it needs to
flow in order to work well.
And yeah I'm seeing echoesof that here that I think
is really interesting.
This this idea of who, likebeing aware of the strengths
of yourself and others andbeing able to work together.
Frankie Berkoben (39:12):
It's also the difference between systems
thinkers and millennia thinkers.
Systems thinkers tendto see big strategy.
Linear thinkers tendto be the swap teams.
Yeah and there's alsoanother trait of specifically
gifted ADHD folk.
So academically orintellectually well gifted in
(39:33):
one area, but having challengesin executive functioning,
which is that the complexthings are easy, but the
simple things are difficult.
So there's an inversecorrelation between
complexity and difficulty.
And most of the populationthinks that simple
equals easy, therefore,complex equals difficult.
(39:53):
So if you are in roles whereyou have to climb the ladder
and you have to excel at simplethings, the doing, the execution
focus, the tactics, the SWATteam pieces, but your skill is
in strategy and in big pictureand in complex thinking, and I.
(40:13):
Thinking across domains, thenyou're going to be stymied.
And so that's a challenge thata lot of people have had to
navigate and can be a greatshame in terms of I'm highly
capable, but I'm in a positionlike I'm in a role which doesn't
reward my strengths and is overreliant on things which are
(40:35):
inherently more challenging.
So if we're thinkinghierarchical organizations.
Where there's a proveyourself so that you
can climb the ladder.
A lot of the lower performers inmore junior roles could actually
be incredible high performersin slightly senior roles.
(40:56):
So there's a structural andsystemic challenge there.
That's something that I do seea lot with gifted ADHD folk.
Hannah Clark (41:04):
Yeah.
I think it's interesting tobe thinking about that even,
from the lens of hiring orputting a team together to be,
thinking about knowing how, Ithink, knowing how I execute,
what are the supports thatare really going to enable
the team to do its best work?
Or what kinds of supportsmight my team be lacking
(41:24):
in order to support themto do their best work?
So I think it's interestingto be thinking about that
in terms of how can we buildteams strategically, not just
because of someone's specificcompetencies or knowledge in a
specific area, but also what,complimentary skills might
they bring to an organizationor might or where, in the org
chart, might their specificskillset best be leveraged.
(41:45):
So it's, yeah, it'sinteresting to think about
things that way becausewhen we really think about.
What we're talking abouthere is how do we really
function day in and day out?
And so it's, it's almostmore impactful to be thinking
about how do I know myself tooperate consistently versus,
what skillset do I know in, inmore of an abstract context.
(42:06):
Ah, this is so interesting.
Since we're getting to timehere, I do want to talk a little
bit about your mission, whichis bringing frameworks rooted
in ADHD into conversationsand workplace performance
and psychological safety, andsome of these really important
and also very challenging andnuanced conversations that,
like you said, we really needto be having more frequently.
So in your view, Frankie,what would it look like if
(42:26):
organizations were beingdesigned more, thinking
about this metaphor ofthe, the star-shaped peg.
Designing them forneurodivergent strengths
and to accommodate for morediversity and how does, have
you seen that in practice?
Have you seen that kindof transition take place?
What does that look like?
Frank (42:43):
Neurodiversity is normal.
It just means we havedifferences in our patterns
of thinking and ournervous system responses.
And we know we areanimals, not robots.
So there is so much variability.
And executive functioningchallenges impact us all,
sometimes more than others, tosome extent more than others.
(43:05):
So a neuro inclusive workplaceis just a human first workplace
in many ways, and it's designingfor variability rather than
conformity, and knowing thateverybody's capacity fluctuates.
And so normalizing thatand its flexibility for
all and transparency andopenness about needs.
(43:30):
And this is where alot of leaders do model
that authenticity andtransparency and lack of
self-judgment around, oh,it's the end of the day.
I'm not gonna be ableto remember that.
Would you mind putting thatin writing or, it really
helps if I had a visualto accompany this slide.
To accompany this, ithelps me remember better.
(43:52):
There's also, part of that isenergy management rather than
just time management and thescheduling around cognitive
rhythms, deep work versusmeetings, not having context
switching take things off.
So a lot of companieshave no meetings, weeks
(44:12):
or no meetings, Fridaysor that there are certain.
Stays allocated forcertain types of work.
And there's also differentways of engaging with more,
like we are not just brains.
We have bodies too.
Tactile or in-personways of collaborating
or or things like that.
I'm not, sorry, I'm notgoing to wade into the
(44:33):
return to office debate.
But it is about making thinkingand collaboration more visible.
Not just in terms of endlessslack pings, but maybe a
shared source of visual truth.
Visual mapping is so key foralignment and for helping
people orient themselves tothe big picture or the why
(44:55):
and where you are in it.
And so that eliminates a lotof contest switching doubt.
Wait, where are we again, likethe memory pieces around that.
And then also.
We're social creatures too,and having team norms that
obviate the need for grit andwillpower on an individual
(45:16):
basis, and that might beco-working sessions or check-in
rituals or shared planningtools that are not just you are
having difficulty with this.
You are the one thathas to fix this.
Like that there's acollective effort rather
than, it's the onus allbeing on the individual.
Hannah Clark (45:35):
I can see all of these really working in
tandem and I've seen themall individually leveraged
in different contexts andthose kinds of, especially
more collaborative tools tofoster a sense of community
and shared accountability, Ithink can be really effective.
More so than we maybe givethem credit for in really
helping people to feel likethey're really an active
part of a machine rather thanjust, the whole, the pressure
(45:58):
and all the burden is on me.
Really wish I could keep thisconversation going 'cause
there's so much to dig into.
But for those who dowant to continue the
conversation, where can peoplefollow your work online?
Frankie Berkoben (46:08):
Yeah, I would love to for people to
connect with me on LinkedIn.
Frankie Berkoben,B-E-R-K-O-B-E-N.
Frankie, F-R-A-N-K-I-E,Berkoben.
And do send me a DM andlet me know what resonated
from this conversation.
This is a fantastic podcastand as you can tell,
(46:28):
Hannah's a fantastic hostand this has been a wonderful
conversation to have.
So just DM me and let me knowwhat resonated specifically.
Hannah Clark (46:35):
Thank you so much for joining me.
It has been anabsolute pleasure.
Frankie Berk (46:38):
Thank you so much.
Hannah Clark (46:39):
Thanks for listening in.
For more great insights,how-to guides and tool reviews,
subscribe to our newsletter attheproductmanager.com/subscribe.
You can hear more conversationslike this by subscribing to
The Product Manager whereveryou get your podcasts.
I am not sure if this will surprise you,
but ADHD is overrepresentedamong product people,
and particularly leaders.
And the more we learn aboutthe common traits of ADHD,
the more it makes sense.
ADHD is correlated withstrategic, big picture thinking,
exceptional problem solvingskills, charisma, and high
levels of comfort in complexand ambiguous situations.
(00:22):
Sounds like someoneyou know, right?
But while all these traitstend to steer people with ADHD
into product management andleadership roles, these amazing
gifts come at a cost thatcan erode our productivity,
confidence, and wellbeing.
My guest today is FrankieBerkoben, an Executive
Coach for Overwhelmed andOften ADHD Leaders in Tech.
And I'll be honest, thisinterview has been one of
(00:42):
the most personally impactfulconversations I've had in
a very long time as someonewho lives with ADHD myself.
And if you've listened this farinto the episode, it's probably
safe to assume that you do too.
So if that's you, this episodeis going to make you feel
so seen and validated whileoffering practical tactics
for working better withADHD—including the other ADHD
(01:04):
brains on your product team.
Let's jump in.
Oh, by the way, wehold conversations
like this every week.
So, if this sounds interestingto you, why not subscribe?
Okay, now let's jump in.
Welcome back to theProduct Manager podcast.
I am so excited to be heretoday with Frankie Berkoben.
Frankie, thank you so much forjoining on me, joining me today.
Frankie Berkoben (01:25):
Oh my gosh, Hannah, I'm
so excited to be here.
Hannah Clark (01:27):
Me too.
Almost too excited.
Can you tell us first aboutyour background and how you've
arrived in your current role?
Frankie Berkoben (01:33):
Gladly.
As you mentioned, I'm anexecutive coach for leaders
in tech, so often extremelybrilliant, often ADHD or
some form of neurodivergent,and navigating this
tension between massivepotential high capability.
And inconsistent performance.
And I come from a backgroundin engineering consulting and
(01:54):
I was a classic overachieveracademically, and I was fine
on the outside, but constantlyquestioning why it felt so
difficult to stay consistentor motivated, like the gold
standard is co consistency.
And now I coach other peoplethrough the shift that I made
myself, which is going fromtrying to fix my brain and
(02:15):
seeing me as the problem.
To recognizing a, likea wider perspective that
maybe there's a mismatchin needs and capabilities.
And so designing a life thatworks with my brain rather than
trying to be someone and operatedifferently than I do, that's
what I help other people with.
So going from shame,overcompensation, and
(02:37):
coping mechanisms thatwork in the short term,
but not in the long term.
To being able to trust mydecisions, my, the way I
operate, my strengths and myclients include directors,
VPs, and C-suites and startups.
Many of my clients were atGoogle Meta, Airbnb, and
(02:57):
even the Biden White House.
And what I've noticed.
And this is leading to partof our conversation really, is
that the gifted ADHD traits, thekind of twice exceptional high
capability, but also sometimeslow execution is the same.
Oh, sorry.
There were these really strongoverlaps between situational
performance challenges instressful leadership positions
(03:21):
and permanent challengeswith executive functioning.
So that's something thatI've been really having more
conversations about thispast year and I've expanded
my coaching practice.
I don't just serveneurodivergent leaders because
what impacts all of us, someof the time IE when we're
stressed, et cetera, impactssome people IE people with
(03:44):
ADHD or executive functioningchallenges all of the time.
So it's the conceptof universal design.
If I give you plentyto work with there.
Hannah Clark (03:54):
Absolutely.
And yeah I'm already feelinglike I might end up getting
a little emotional duringthis conversation because
this is a topic that is sonear to my heart, even nearer
to my brain as somebodywho was diagnosed with ADHD
when I was 20 years old.
And it completely changedthe trajectory of my life,
my career for the better.
But it's also an ongoing,I think for most folks
who are neurodivergentor who have ADHD or some
(04:16):
other kind of difference.
That there is an ongoing journeyto manage what that looks
like for you in your career.
And yeah it's just like aconstant thing that, that's
interesting to learn about, bothfrom the perspective of someone
who might be neurodivergent,whether or not they know it.
And for those of us who areworking with neuro divergent
people and trying to understandbetter what their patterns
are and the reasons whythat inconsistency might be
(04:39):
manifesting in performance.
So anyway, to kick us off,let's talk a little bit
about some specific examples.
What are some traits that yousee that are connect the dots
between, these, what we seeas strengths of having ADHD or
that we kinda associate withproduct leadership, as well as
the sort of yin and yang, likethe challenges that kind of
come along with those things?
Frankie Berkoben (05:00):
Yeah.
Let's focus more on thestrengths to start off with
and then the challengeswill inevitably pop up
because we have a negativitybias, as problem solvers.
Really?
So what I see in terms of likereally exceptional product
thinkers and leaders is thatthey're interdisciplinary
systems thinkers.
They are capable of puttingthemselves in other people's
(05:22):
shoes and behind theirglasses, to see from multiple
different lenses and to bezoomed out in a way that
you can see the big picture.
You can see how thingsare interconnected.
And there's like a realrichness and nuance and
ability to hold that complexitytoo, of seeing everything
everywhere all at once.
But being able to also seethe patterns in it and seeing
(05:46):
so that's one thing is theinterdisciplinary systems
thinking rather than onenarrow silo or niche or one
single perspective, callthat stakeholder empathy,
call it system thinkinglike there's a lot there.
There's also the reallyhigh emotional intelligence.
Commonality is not necessarilyprescriptive and it is tied
(06:09):
to empathy, but it's alsoaround communication and
understanding and like havinga spidey sense for what's going
on for other people or howa user might be experiencing
something that you know, so thatgetting into people's stories.
(06:29):
Without getting floodedby them is part of that.
And I mentioned, comfortablewith complexity, like seeing
the big picture, but beingcomfortable also getting
into details when necessary.
So often extremely strategicbut able to mess around
in the details too.
Also, there's this reallycompelling presence, the,
(06:53):
you might call it charisma.
Or, influence without authorityor any of those sort of buzz
phrases is, when you believein something, when you see
connections other people don't.
When you care about the peopleinvolved with that, high
empathy and intelligence, theemotional intelligence, it
means that you are able topaint a picture and tell stories
(07:14):
that bring people on board.
So it's that emotionalin depth intelligence.
People respond withemotion rather than
they respond to facts.
So that often comes in.
Hannah Clark (07:25):
Yeah, that all resonates deeply.
I don't wanna say that'san exact profile of me, but
I definitely identify withmany of the themes there.
And I see that also in some ofyeah I feel like specifically
ADHD, I can't speak to all NightNeurodivergence, but it's a not
so secret society in which a lotof us recognize some of these
traits and others intuitively.
Yeah they can be suchan immense strength.
(07:47):
I think a lot of us build ourcareers based on some of those
really amazing strengths,and yet there's also these
challenges that come along withit with executive function.
So let's talk a little bitabout executive functioning.
First of all, I've heardyou describe it as the
brain's C-suite, whichI think very cute.
How would you describe, whatis executive functioning
and what are some of thoseinvisible differences that
impact how neurodivergentand neurotypical people often
(08:10):
operate in the workplace?
Frankie Berkoben (08:11):
Yeah, executive functioning.
There are plenty of differentdefinitions for it, and it's not
always clear, but an operationaldefinition is it's the set of
cognitive processes in yourprefrontal cortex that help us
execute executive functioning.
Translating intent into action.
And it's the ability to zoomout, figure out what your
(08:35):
needs might be to ideateand problem solve, like
how to get those needs met.
It includes prioritizingplanning, task initiation
time and energy management,or regulating your focus
and attention and theawareness of enables us
to course correct too.
(08:55):
And executivefunctions are often.
Talked about in either earlychildhood contexts or deficit
based contexts such as remedialacademic coaching or disability
accommodations, and really onlywhen something is going wrong.
But, and this is what I carereally strongly about, is
(09:16):
to bring this concept and anunderstanding and awareness
of what executive functionsare and how they vary because
they are context dependent.
And knowing how theyvary for all humans.
When we're tired, whenwe're stressed, when
we're, when we're sick.
Like all these things areimpaired situationally
or temporarily.
(09:37):
And knowing how theneurodivergent population has
managed to mitigate some ofthese things in a more permanent
or temporary way can really helpall of us up level in terms of
performance and in many ways.
You can think about your,the executive functions as
your brain's PM too, likeyour, like triaging requests
(10:02):
and allocating resourcesand managing stakeholders.
Sometimes internal, like wehave competing priorities
too and, adjusting our courseand strategy and regarding,
the second part of thatquestion about invisible
differences that impact.
How neurodivergent and neuronnormative people operate.
(10:22):
That's a really hard questionto answer 'cause it presumes
that there are differences.
What impacts some peopleall of the time impacts
all of us some of the time.
And what makes ADHD andexecutive functioning
challenges so relatable isbecause we all experience them
to some degree or another.
And it is no secret that we'reliving in an increasingly
(10:45):
stressful, volatile, ambiguous,complex world, and we're close
to our threshold of what wecan manage at any given time,
whether it's the sheer amountof data and information that
we're trying to cram intoour heads, or the speed at
which we're expected to switchtasks and things like that.
So I think that the invisibledifferences are really just
(11:11):
about intensity and persistenceof some of these things.
If analysis paralysis issomething that only impacts
you on a Friday afternoonor the after the end of the
long week rather than everysingle day from the moment
you get up to the moment yougo to bed, then your tactics
(11:32):
are gonna be different.
Your awareness and suggestionsand expectations of what will
or won't work, and thereforethe value judgments that you
place on all the people whoaren't able to overcome more
pervasive analysis paralysisare slightly different.
So it's more to do withhow often and how much does
(11:55):
this impact rather thandoes this impact you at all?
Hannah Clark (11:59):
I'm already really appreciating the nuance of these
responses because when I thinkabout myself as an interviewer,
especially, sorry, this is likea little meta moment, but when
I think about, sitting down towrite interview questions for
something, I often will think ofa question and I feel like the
question's often pointing to avery specific or direct answer.
(12:20):
And what I really appreciateabout this, that I really
recognize as a trait inADHD folks is that there's.
It's always an, it depends.
There's always such avast gray area to explore.
So I appreciate, and I thinkthis might be a theme throughout
as I'm asking you thingsthat there is so much a gray
area that I think is an un.
(12:40):
Maybe an under-discussedstrength of ADHD is to be able
to really interpret and kindaexpand a situation and think,
oh, it's not really black orwhite, or, there's not really
one specific answer or one wayto describe this situation.
It's very contextual.
It's, and.
All these different factorsmake us very good leaders in
that we're able to identify thestrengths of the people and the
resources around us and make ajudgment call based on all of
(13:04):
these things in combination,rather than this is uniformly
a good or bad thing based on,prior data that's not really
relevant to this situation.
So anyway, this is an asidebecause I'm recognizing and I
really appreciate being ableto dive into these questions
in a more nuanced fashion.
But anyway, moving along,'cause I could, I feel
like all of these questionscould be their own podcast.
Speaking of resource allocationissues, when we think about
(13:26):
executive functioning challengesand trying to reframe some of
those challenges as away fromthis idea of it being a personal
failing 'cause I think that, Ithink one of the things that we
often will struggle with, whichkind of comes at the crux of
this conversation, is trying tostep away from taking some of
those challenges personally andfinding ways to be constructive
(13:46):
about addressing them.
So when you think about how youapproach dealing with clients
and reframing that mindset,how do you kind of position
that change in mindset aroundtaking away that, feeling of
how you function is your fault,and thinking about it more in
terms of, how do you frame itin a way that's constructive
(14:08):
and that helps us to seek andbalance our, what our needs
are and how to address them.
Frankie B (14:13):
There are two things.
So first we start with.
A lot of high performersand a lot of leaders who are
extremely capable but haveinconsistent follow through
for whatever reason, arevery hard on themselves.
So busting down the walls ofself-judgment that are often
seen as necessary to push andto achieve, and to provide
(14:37):
the business case and theROI for self-compassion and
not being a jerk to yourself.
And what's possible when youwork with, rather than trying
to force yourself to be someoneor something that you are not.
So there's the self-compassionpiece, first of all, and
the analogy that reallyresonates with a lot of people
(14:58):
is there's this sense ofbeing a square peg, trying
to fit into a round hole.
I think of it actually more asa star shaped peg where we have.
Amazing.
Like we're a lot in many areas.
If if you do a, an assessment,you'll have a spiky strengths
profile, either all or nothingin different areas, often known
(15:21):
as a spiky strengths profile.
So you're a star shapedpeg, tried to fit into
a round hole, and someplaces you are too much.
Your most brilliant attributesmay be seen as threatening.
Or as too much or not necessary.
You're like, you're deliveringa Ferrari when what we need is a
some form of Toyota, or there'sother areas where you are not
(15:45):
meeting the bare minimum, andthat might be around follow
through and administrativetasks or some of the things
that are reliant on memory anddoggedness and willpower and
just like getting through them.
And so how do you fit a squareshaped peg into a round hole?
What are the options?
(16:06):
You sand down pieces of apeg or you stretch pieces
of it to fit, or maybeyou nudge the environment.
Maybe we adjust the environment.
So there's, it's in order tosparkle and to shine, and for
your strengths to be not onlytolerated, but acknowledged and
celebrated that it's not justabout changing the peg, but
it's about changing the whole.
(16:27):
So it's not just the individual.
Also the environment andconversations need to happen
about whether that is somethingthat either party can do, and it
doesn't have to be just about,say, disability accommodations,
because what we've noticed inthe concept of universal design
is that if you design for theedge cases and remove friction
(16:50):
points for edge cases, oftenthat will improve outcomes and
experiences for people in themiddle of the bell curve too.
So having a more flexibleworking environment, which
accommodates executivefunctioning challenges and
variability and smooths removesthe friction, helps everybody.
(17:11):
So I would say the scarsshaped peg round hole also
helps you see, oh, I'm, maybeI wasn't meant to be here, or
in order to be here, these aremy needs that need to be met.
And to be here, I need to cutoff the thing that makes me if
I need to file away or hide oreven masking, hiding or code
(17:35):
switching in order to fit in.
That is a huge emotional loadto bear day in and day out,
as well as cognitive load.
So then positions it as a fitissue rather than a deficiency.
Hannah Clark (17:52):
This is an interesting question
too, because I feellike, as you mentioned,
we're in an increasinglyvolatile environment.
Whether that's, when we thinkabout the business landscape
or the political landscape,or just the global landscape,
there are so many differentthings that we're just
simultaneously trying to computeand manage at the same time.
Along with that, ourenvironments are also
shifting around us.
(18:13):
So I can see there beingmany instances in which an
environment that felt likea really snug fit at one
point has now itself changedat the times, and there can
be this disconnect between.
What we're able to bring to thetable or feeling overloaded by
the speed of change or by thedemands that change management
might have on a person.
(18:34):
And then the, the trying toreconcile that with how the
environment has changed andwhether or not those supports
still exist for you or whetherthat fit still is there.
I feel that there's a lot ofdissonance happening around
us in which we're reallyfeeling that additional
pressure of, I want to rise tothe occasion because that's.
How I identify myself, howI feel about myself, and
(18:56):
yet it's increasingly moredifficult to interpret
like, how do I do that?
And is that somethingthat's within my grasp?
So yeah, this is, I thinkthis is another kind of
one of those gray areasituations to interpret that.
It's it's not just that we'renot alone, and it's not just
that we may not be a fit forthe environment, but that
all of our environments areinherently changing and that
(19:17):
this is a time, I think that'sespecially challenging not just
for people who have ADHD butfor all of us who are trying
to reconcile like our existinghabits and our skill sets
with this world that we're in.
So this is, this isan interesting kind of
tangent to to get into.
Frankie Berkoben (19:31):
Yeah.
So we're evolving as well.
Our awareness evolves andsomething that I do see a lot
is that for people who arerecently diagnosed with ADHD.
The awareness of what thisactually means and the
awareness of what they nolonger have to tolerate in
terms of, oh, I don't haveto do it a certain way.
(19:53):
There is a way that worksfor me that I can do.
And so there's a strongoverlap at one point in time
between your needs and theenvir, what the environment
can give, but it may shift.
So there's no longer anoverlap in the Venn diagram
as either your awareness ofwhat your needs actually are.
They may have been the sameall along, but maybe your needs
(20:15):
have changed, your awarenesshas changed, or your needs
themselves have changed.
You're in a different position.
Lots of people like are goingthrough additional caregiving
responsibilities with eldercare and also childcare,
especially towards likesenior leadership positions.
So there's also a change in yourenvironments, which means, yeah,
(20:36):
a difference in your needs.
Even if the organizationhas remained the same.
So you're right, like theshades of gray or even
between black and white,there are many colors.
It doesn't have to be gray.
Hannah Clark (20:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I suppose that's true.
But yeah I think very validatingto hear that said out loud that.
There are many ways that ourenvironments can change and
that, our feeling overwhelmedas we attempt to meet them isn't
necessarily a personal feeling.
It's a, as a part of theevolution that I think all
of us are trying to endure.
At the same time, I dowanna shift gears a little
(21:10):
bit towards a topic that Ithink is really fascinating,
which is systems thinking.
We just had a great conversationwith Cheryl Kaba, who's the
author of closing the LoopSystems, thinking for Designers.
It really reminded me of aconversation that I'd had
with you prior about systemsthinking being something that
tends to be, not necessarily aninherent trait of ADHD people,
but it seems to be a lot morepresent among those who have an
(21:30):
ADHD kind of way of thinking.
And I really believe in thatas it being a real strength.
And also something that kindof, to your point earlier
about it being a little bitdifferent from some of the more
linear ways of thinking, can.
Really effectively leverageand to really be able to
(21:50):
bring people into the storythat you are able to tell
effectively, inconsistently.
So how would you describethat thought process?
Let's assume that we've gota listener who is very linear
in their way of thinking.
How would you describe thatkind of more nuanced systems
thinking or I think you hadsome other words for it.
And are there any ways thatyou've seen this work in
(22:12):
action of how people havebeen able to leverage this,
or maybe clients have beenable to leverage this way of
thinking in their organizations?
Frankie Berkoben (22:18):
It's the big picture, seeing the big picture,
the perspective, it's multipledimensions, multiple factors,
multiple axes simultaneously.
It's not just a two by two.
And it's seeinginterdependencies, being able
to think from first principles.
Seeing nodes in a system andthen how they're connected
(22:40):
and being able to interpolate,not just extrapolate,
but in multiple differentlayers and complexities.
You can see emergentpatterns rather than
what's in front of you.
So it often looks like seeingrisks or consequences, or
even possibilities that aretwo or three orders separated
(23:03):
from what is right in front.
Especially when it comes tolong-term strategic thinking.
This is a real assetwhen it comes to, in the
moment, get stuff done.
That can providea lot of friction.
There are two other aspects.
One is the why and theintuitive piece, so I'll
go with the why first.
Understanding the why.
(23:23):
Is essential for many of theclients that I work with who
identify as systems thinkers.
It's understanding well withinall of this, what exactly are
we trying to do, because itcan be very overwhelming to
see everything ever all at onceand how it's interconnected
on different timescales anddifferent dimensions, and that
propensity towards diversityof thought and and perspective
(23:47):
can also leave you spinning.
So having a clear why thatis, is essential there.
And so advocating for that orhaving that provided is a way
to work with the differencesand people, how people think.
There's also the intuition.
This is to do with differentprocessing modalities, how
we take in and internalize,and then communicate and
(24:11):
socialize information thatwhen we're communicating with
others, often it's verbal.
Communicating verbally is a formof linear communication because
there's a beginning and amiddle and an end of a sentence.
Ideally, if what you're seeingis multidimensional or how
you're understanding it is maybedoesn't lend itself to one.
(24:32):
Linear sentenceor communicating,
conveying in words.
There are different typesof communication that have
to happen, but also it'sa felt sense or it's a
visual and different peopleexperience it differently.
It may be like a spatialthing, and so the challenge,
the friction point isoften trying to translate.
(24:53):
This nonverbal understandinginto words so that other
people can come along withyou so that other people
see what you're seeing.
Other people feelwhat you're feeling.
Other people understandwhat you understand.
So there's a translation elementthere, which takes time too.
So effective ways forsystems thinkers to leverage
(25:16):
this power of thinking.
Only about 25% of the world'spopulation are probably systems
thinkers or network thinkersor global thinkers in terms of
seeing the interconnectednessof things is conveying, like
narrating their thinking,saying, here's what I'm seeing.
(25:36):
Here's the downstream risk,here's the trade off I'm
seeing among other things.
And so using visual metaphors.
For visual artifacts,systems, maps, and diagrams.
As I said, we have visualmetaphors also really help
storytelling too, if there'san analogy, is very helpful
(25:58):
'cause it helps open upwhat can be tunnel vision
for linear thinkers who aregetting things done and then
they're not distracted, they'renot seeing what's beyond
the scope of their focus.
Is helping putthat into context.
So ideally there is a yin andyang between operators and doers
and strategists and thinkers,and there are different time
(26:21):
skills on which people work.
And so the people that havebeen most effective, the clients
that I've worked with thathave been most effective at
communicating this, have learnedto ask to slow things down
so that they get to the why.
Rather than jumping straightinto the solution, I need
the big picture before Ican jump into the details.
(26:43):
They leverage other forms ofcommunication and mapping, so
visual mapping and metaphorsand then also the communicating
and narrating their thinkingto provide context for what
comes to them intuitively.
Hannah Clark (26:58):
One thing that jumps to mind when you
mentioned, these nodes ofthinking is this, I think
almost stereotypical notion ofan ADHD person trying to tell
you a story about somethingthat happened in their day.
Invariably, it starts theway that any story starts and
then it begins to bounce intothese micro tangents that to
the person telling the storyadds rich context to help you
(27:21):
understand exactly, why is thisperson in the story relevant?
Why is this thing thathappened three weeks ago
relevant to the story thatI'm telling from today?
And there's all of these littlethings that pop up in the
conversation that are very mucha part of the system that the
person is trying to communicateto you, which is really, but.
Sometimes to a listener, itcan be so overwhelming to
try and digest and downloadall of these micro tangents.
(27:44):
That seemed to be completelyirrelevant to what the
person's trying to communicate.
And so I think therein isthat frustration of trying to
communicate all of this richcontext and information and how
these things are interlinkedwithout overwhelming the
listener and overwhelmingthe person who you're trying
to communicate all of it to.
And so I, I can reallyappreciate this idea of using
(28:05):
metaphors is something thatI've really glommed onto.
I think a lot of folkshave called me up for
being a little bit overthe top with my metaphors.
Also using these kind ofvisual aids to be able to
help people follow yourtrain of thought without
either of you getting lost.
So yeah, I really endorse, maybeoverly endorse those tools.
But yes I think that theseare some of the really
(28:25):
effective ways that peoplecan leverage these strengths
and use organizations.
One, one of the things Ithink I'm interested in
exploring is how do we manage.
The desire to communicate.
As you mentioned, beingable to see things maybe
a few steps down the line.
(28:46):
When we are at a level ofinfluence that isn't, we're
sometimes communicatingall this information
can almost undermine us.
I'm having a hard timearticulating this, but I've
recognized situations throughoutmy career, especially when
I was more junior, when Iwould feel like I was seeing
the logical conclusionof a specific initiative.
(29:07):
That was a misaligned with theobjective of the organization
and trying to understand,or trying to communicate
that to, the leadershipthat I was, reporting to.
And I really felt likethere was this judgment of
that I was a little loonymaybe, or that I was making
a mountain out of a molehillor, I just didn't really feel
(29:28):
like I had the gravitas or.
Something wasn't really clickingwith how I was communicating
these things, and invariablyI was settling into this okay,
we'll just do it your way.
And at that point, this iswhat I wanted to talk about was
the why began to detach itselffrom the mission where the
why that I needed in order tobe motivated to feel invested
(29:50):
and engaged in the work.
Because I didn't feel likethe why that I had in mind was
the same why that the or theleadership maybe had in mind.
It was really difficult toconjure that same buy-in.
So there's these likedisconnects that take place
where if you feel you can'treally communicate effectively
and get on the same page, itcan undermine that sense of
(30:11):
why, anyway, this isn't reallya question I'm realizing, but
how do you mitigate some ofthose communication problems?
Frankie Berkoben (30:16):
Yeah, and there are two things that I'm
hearing in what you were saying.
One is.
Seeing the consequences thatnobody else sees and being
a whistleblower and beinglabeled a problem maker,
troublemaker, or the naysayer.
And what's often reallyinfuriating is a couple of
(30:37):
years down the line, peoplewill be like, that thing that
you said, it came to pass.
And you're like great.
But in the moment it'san unpopular opinion.
It's an uncomfortable truth.
People aren't seeing itthe way you are seeing it.
And so the communicationchallenges are, especially
(30:57):
if it happens in the moment,is trying to give yourself
space to translate into theirspeak, translate into what
they care about and the riskthat you see, which you feel
as a danger, as a real threat.
And you wanna have it out there,you want it to be said is.
(31:19):
So there's part of regulatingyour own nervous system so
that you give yourself a beat,maybe a minute or so to sketch
out what it is you want tosay and how you want to say
it so that then you can sayit and articulate it in a way.
And also developing the courageof not saying everything to
not over provide context,to not prove your worth.
(31:43):
So that kind of risklesslyprioritizing what you are,
what you're communicating.
It's a skill for some of us,it takes more work than others.
And then the harder piecethat I heard in there too
was how heartbreaking it canbe when you find out that
your why, that you understoodthe team or the organization
(32:04):
to be working towards isnot the same according
to other people's view.
And that sense, losing a senseof belonging, losing a sense
of purpose, and feeling like.
You're all workingtogether towards the same
purpose can be extremelydemoralizing, especially
when we have interest-basedmotivation systems.
(32:27):
So this is where the roleof dopamine and deficient
dopamine reuptake, or I'm nota neuroscientist, but where
lower effectiveness of dopamineis neurotransmitter shows up.
So people with lowerdopamine effectiveness.
Are more keyed into interest.
The why has to resonatewith them individually
(32:50):
with their values.
And the why can also meanbelonging, but not at
the expense of integrity.
For many people who are moreneuron normative or more subtle
or grounded or privilege orhowever it is, but it can just
be important space, motivation.
It has to get done andit's important, therefore
(33:11):
it shall get done, andthat's enough for me.
It's critical to have theshared buy-in and to feel like
it is shared and that the whyresonates for you at this point
in time with your awareness ofyour value schema and needs.
I just wanted to reflect thatback because even though there
wasn't a question in there,there were two really important
(33:32):
points around how we workwith information and why it's
so critical to have interestbe and why be part of that.
Hannah Clark (33:42):
I'm seeing that as maybe being maybe a missing
piece for a lot of folks whofind themselves really stuck in
the gridlock of, how is it thatI just can't seem to motivate
myself to do the things thatI know I'm beholden to do?
And when I reflect back atmy career and the past roles
(34:02):
that I've held, I think that'soften where things have gone
amiss, is when I felt like.
I no longer felt secure inthe sense of what are we
trying to accomplish here?
What's the mission?
What's the goal?
Where am I headed?
Where's my team headed?
And what's the rallying crythat we can all get behind?
That can drive ustowards that together.
(34:22):
So if we can prescribeanything, that might be one
possible diagnostic toolis to evaluate, if you're
struggling with that, maybethere is a disconnect between
where is that goal or do youfeel that it's very clear what
everybody is trying to achieveand is the path to get there
clear to everybody as well.
Yeah, this is interesting.
I'm finding some therapeutic,so you mentioned also
(34:45):
being comfortable withcomplexity and I really.
Really like that term too.
I think this is a verycrucial product skill.
It's a crucial life skill,and it's also huge strength
in asset that we bring toteams that we're part of.
How would you say we can bebetter leveraging that kind of
comfort with complexity in aleadership role specifically?
(35:08):
I think this is somethingthat maybe we don't leverage
thoughtfully enough.
Frankie Berkoben (35:13):
There are several different
aspects of this.
One is.
We crave certainty and weshy away from ambiguity.
Like it is one of the thingsthat leads people into
black and white thinking andsnap judgements and group
think too is not hangingout in the not knowing.
(35:33):
So a key piece is to build innorms or space somehow in your
processes and in meetings.
For ambiguity to be helddoes both and many truths
are possible at once.
So it can sound kind ofphilosophical, but it's also
(35:54):
an essential part of whatopens up creative thinking and
brainstorming and challengingour assumptions because
everybody's coming in withdifferent assumptions about
how things should be or howthings are based on their
own perspectives and lenses.
Having rituals or norms orprocedures that openly hold
(36:18):
ambiguity and let peopleswim around in and add to
the pool of shared knowledge.
When you have someone who holdscomplexity easily, that poise
can really steady the teamfrom an emotional standpoint.
It co regulates.
Our nervous systems go downfrom red Alert to, okay, yeah.
(36:38):
Collectively we've got this.
So it's the team effort too.
And part of that is, yeah,you do a landscape analysis,
like you have time for that.
You give individuals, butalso, a collective adequate
time to map the train, likesurface hidden considerations
and actually take time toreally frame the actual
(36:58):
problem rather than what youthink the problem should be.
That's a real asset here.
And then encouraging,thinking out loud,
specifically narrating,here are the trade-offs.
Here's what I'm thinking.
I, if I look at this, thenhere's, and again, it's about
threads in a common tapestryrather than jumping to one
particular definition of whatthe problem is and isn't of
(37:21):
what the solution is and isn't.
And then anotherpart of this is.
There are people whoare extremely good at
strategic thinking andcomplexity and big picture.
They may not be good orskilled at some of the
operations and do it workand the execution itself.
So having, the whole goodidea now you're in charge,
(37:45):
doesn't always work.
So making sure that thereare complimentary strengths
because together are stronger.
Hannah Clark (37:52):
This is reminding me a lot of a
conversation I'd had a longtime ago with Victoria Coup.
We talked about it in thecontext of the product war
room in the types that sheidentified are similar to what
you're describing here, whereshe mentioned some people
she describes as the Pentagonand others, as the SWAT team
and the Pentagon are the verystrategic thinkers that really
thrive on this idea of beingable to solve a complex problem
(38:13):
and that kind of that whitespace in between where we
are and where we need to be.
And that is the areawhere they thrive.
And then the SWAT team or theexecutors are really skilled.
At just bringing the energyand dedication and focus
needed to really executeon that plan and that you
need a combination of both.
And I think what I'm hearinghere is that it's important
(38:33):
to be cognizant of wherepeople on teams that you're
overseeing or that you'repart of, strengths are.
And, who can you maybe counton to do some of those more
really execution focused tasks?
And who can you count on to bea little bit more strategic and
understanding how to, how doesthe problem solving piece need
to be brought into the fold.
(38:54):
And, have, or even understandingand recognizing how your plan
to solve that problem needsto work or, how it needs to
flow in order to work well.
And yeah I'm seeing echoesof that here that I think
is really interesting.
This this idea of who, likebeing aware of the strengths
of yourself and others andbeing able to work together.
Frankie Berkoben (39:12):
It's also the difference between systems
thinkers and millennia thinkers.
Systems thinkers tendto see big strategy.
Linear thinkers tendto be the swap teams.
Yeah and there's alsoanother trait of specifically
gifted ADHD folk.
So academically orintellectually well gifted in
(39:33):
one area, but having challengesin executive functioning,
which is that the complexthings are easy, but the
simple things are difficult.
So there's an inversecorrelation between
complexity and difficulty.
And most of the populationthinks that simple
equals easy, therefore,complex equals difficult.
(39:53):
So if you are in roles whereyou have to climb the ladder
and you have to excel at simplethings, the doing, the execution
focus, the tactics, the SWATteam pieces, but your skill is
in strategy and in big pictureand in complex thinking, and I.
(40:13):
Thinking across domains, thenyou're going to be stymied.
And so that's a challenge thata lot of people have had to
navigate and can be a greatshame in terms of I'm highly
capable, but I'm in a positionlike I'm in a role which doesn't
reward my strengths and is overreliant on things which are
(40:35):
inherently more challenging.
So if we're thinkinghierarchical organizations.
Where there's a proveyourself so that you
can climb the ladder.
A lot of the lower performers inmore junior roles could actually
be incredible high performersin slightly senior roles.
(40:56):
So there's a structural andsystemic challenge there.
That's something that I do seea lot with gifted ADHD folk.
Hannah Clark (41:04):
Yeah.
I think it's interesting tobe thinking about that even,
from the lens of hiring orputting a team together to be,
thinking about knowing how, Ithink, knowing how I execute,
what are the supports thatare really going to enable
the team to do its best work?
Or what kinds of supportsmight my team be lacking
(41:24):
in order to support themto do their best work?
So I think it's interestingto be thinking about that
in terms of how can we buildteams strategically, not just
because of someone's specificcompetencies or knowledge in a
specific area, but also what,complimentary skills might
they bring to an organizationor might or where, in the org
chart, might their specificskillset best be leveraged.
(41:45):
So it's, yeah, it'sinteresting to think about
things that way becausewhen we really think about.
What we're talking abouthere is how do we really
function day in and day out?
And so it's, it's almostmore impactful to be thinking
about how do I know myself tooperate consistently versus,
what skillset do I know in, inmore of an abstract context.
(42:06):
Ah, this is so interesting.
Since we're getting to timehere, I do want to talk a little
bit about your mission, whichis bringing frameworks rooted
in ADHD into conversationsand workplace performance
and psychological safety, andsome of these really important
and also very challenging andnuanced conversations that,
like you said, we really needto be having more frequently.
So in your view, Frankie,what would it look like if
(42:26):
organizations were beingdesigned more, thinking
about this metaphor ofthe, the star-shaped peg.
Designing them forneurodivergent strengths
and to accommodate for morediversity and how does, have
you seen that in practice?
Have you seen that kindof transition take place?
What does that look like?
Frank (42:43):
Neurodiversity is normal.
It just means we havedifferences in our patterns
of thinking and ournervous system responses.
And we know we areanimals, not robots.
So there is so much variability.
And executive functioningchallenges impact us all,
sometimes more than others, tosome extent more than others.
(43:05):
So a neuro inclusive workplaceis just a human first workplace
in many ways, and it's designingfor variability rather than
conformity, and knowing thateverybody's capacity fluctuates.
And so normalizing thatand its flexibility for
all and transparency andopenness about needs.
(43:30):
And this is where alot of leaders do model
that authenticity andtransparency and lack of
self-judgment around, oh,it's the end of the day.
I'm not gonna be ableto remember that.
Would you mind putting thatin writing or, it really
helps if I had a visualto accompany this slide.
To accompany this, ithelps me remember better.
(43:52):
There's also, part of that isenergy management rather than
just time management and thescheduling around cognitive
rhythms, deep work versusmeetings, not having context
switching take things off.
So a lot of companieshave no meetings, weeks
(44:12):
or no meetings, Fridaysor that there are certain.
Stays allocated forcertain types of work.
And there's also differentways of engaging with more,
like we are not just brains.
We have bodies too.
Tactile or in-personways of collaborating
or or things like that.
I'm not, sorry, I'm notgoing to wade into the
(44:33):
return to office debate.
But it is about making thinkingand collaboration more visible.
Not just in terms of endlessslack pings, but maybe a
shared source of visual truth.
Visual mapping is so key foralignment and for helping
people orient themselves tothe big picture or the why
(44:55):
and where you are in it.
And so that eliminates a lotof contest switching doubt.
Wait, where are we again, likethe memory pieces around that.
And then also.
We're social creatures too,and having team norms that
obviate the need for grit andwillpower on an individual
(45:16):
basis, and that might beco-working sessions or check-in
rituals or shared planningtools that are not just you are
having difficulty with this.
You are the one thathas to fix this.
Like that there's acollective effort rather
than, it's the onus allbeing on the individual.
Hannah Clark (45:35):
I can see all of these really working in
tandem and I've seen themall individually leveraged
in different contexts andthose kinds of, especially
more collaborative tools tofoster a sense of community
and shared accountability, Ithink can be really effective.
More so than we maybe givethem credit for in really
helping people to feel likethey're really an active
part of a machine rather thanjust, the whole, the pressure
(45:58):
and all the burden is on me.
Really wish I could keep thisconversation going 'cause
there's so much to dig into.
But for those who dowant to continue the
conversation, where can peoplefollow your work online?
Frankie Berkoben (46:08):
Yeah, I would love to for people to
connect with me on LinkedIn.
Frankie Berkoben,B-E-R-K-O-B-E-N.
Frankie, F-R-A-N-K-I-E,Berkoben.
And do send me a DM andlet me know what resonated
from this conversation.
This is a fantastic podcastand as you can tell,
(46:28):
Hannah's a fantastic hostand this has been a wonderful
conversation to have.
So just DM me and let me knowwhat resonated specifically.
Hannah Clark (46:35):
Thank you so much for joining me.
It has been anabsolute pleasure.
Frankie Berk (46:38):
Thank you so much.
Hannah Clark (46:39):
Thanks for listening in.
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